Theology in the Raw - S8 Ep882: Another Perspective on Systemic Racism, White Privilege, and CRT: Samuel Sey

Episode Date: July 8, 2021

Samuel Sey is a Ghanian-Canadian who lives in outside of Toronto. He’s written extensively on race, racial justice, abortion, critical race theory, and other issues related to faith and culture. He challenges us with a perspective on race that’s different from what you will hear on most mainstream media outlets. He believes that critical race theory is profoundly problematic, that unequal outcomes does not necessarily mean there’s injustice in the system, that systemic racism is largely untrue, and that we should think the best of other people before we judge their actions as racist.  You can read more about Samuel work at: https://slowtowrite.com and follow him on twitter: @SlowToWrite Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. My guest today is Samuel Say. Samuel writes at slowtoright.com. He is a Ghanan. He was born in Ghana, Ghanian, and he moved to Canada, into Toronto when he was 10 years old. So he's been living in Canada. He's about to move to Ohio. And Samuel has written a lot on race, race relations, critical race theory. And I don't want to spoil this conversation ahead of time, but let me just say I've reached out to Samuel because I know he takes a different perspective on a lot of these issues than what you might come across in most mainstream, let's just say left leaning media outlets. And because I just absolutely value diversity of thought, I like to listen to different voices. I never want to just sit in an echo chamber because I am trying to

understand the race conversation. I want to understand it by listening to a different array of different voices. And so Samuel is going to be part of that array. Some of you, at the end of the podcast, me and him had a little offline dialogue and I said, Samuel, I'm going to get three kinds of emails. Number one, I'm going to get several emails probably from people that say, Preston, finally, you had a voice of reason and rationality on the show with your journey in this race conversation. Thank you for having Sammy on. That's going to be some of you. Others of you are going to say, wow, he gave us a lot to think about. I need to kind of rethink some things that I thought were kind of established and he

challenged some assumptions that I had. Thank you for having him on. I need to kind of sit back and fact check some things, read some more articles, and see what I think about this. That's going to be some of you. And others of you might say, I can't believe you platformed this guy. That was absolutely horrible. He's wrong. He's internalized his own racism or something like that.

I don't know what kind of response, but I think some of you are not going to like what he has to say. So I just challenge all of you just to listen, to understand, to engage, to do your own research, to be humble, to consider different viewpoints, and then do your own fact checking, do your own research, so that we can all be well-informed, having grappled with a different array of voices so that we can have a better perspective on something as significant as racism. So without

further ado, let's welcome the one and only Samuel episode of Theology in the Raw. I'm here with Samuel Say, whom I only vaguely know from a distance. Read some of your stuff, Samuel, and heard some of your talks. And I'm really excited to have you on the podcast. Thanks for coming on the show. Well, thank you for having me. I really, I want to specifically have you unpack your view on the race conversation. I know that's a broad term,

but you have some interesting and some might consider different, unorthodox maybe thoughts on the race conversation. But first, why don't you tell us who you are and give us a little bit of background about kind of where you're coming from. And then we can get into some of the nitty gritty. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm Samuel Say.

I blog at slow to write dot com. I'm on social media also at slow to write. I'm known primarily for two things. I'm on social media also at Slow to Write. I'm known primarily for two things. I'm known for being a pro-life advocate. Until recently, I was working for an organization here in Canada on trying to end abortion in our nation. And then I'm also known for blogging about racial issues, cultural issues, political issues with, I would say, biblical theology. But I was born originally in Ghana, West Africa, and I moved to Canada when I was 10 years old. Originally, I lived in Montreal, basically the French city in Canada. And then I moved to Toronto when I was about 13. And now I'm in the middle of moving to the U.S. soon.

I have a fiance. I got to marry. Will you become a citizen or start that path? Doing that, yes. It took me a few years before I can apply for that. But when I'm able to, yes, yeah. Is Ghana French-speaking? I forget.

No, it's English. We're a British colony. But we just moved to Montreal because at the time it was just the easiest place for us to settle. So did you learn French in Montreal then? Yes, I did. Although, unfortunately, so when I spoke it almost fluently within three years, I was young. And the younger you are, the easier you can understand the language. And I'm generally pretty good at languages anyways.

But then when I moved to Toronto, for the last 20 years, it's been 20 years now, I rarely spoke French to anybody, really. So I can still understand a lot of it, but I can't speak it as easily as I used to. Yeah. My wife was born and raised in France, so that's, yeah. Oh, okay. But I've dabbled in French, mainly for my doctorate. We had to read French and German, among other languages. So I was able to kind of get an okay reading knowledge.

But man, reading French and speaking it are two different worlds. Yes, yes, yes. And were you raised in a Christian home? Or when did you come to faith? Yeah, sorry. I was raised by a Christian mom. She was, well, she is a single mother still, but I was raised in a single parent home. My dad wasn't in the picture at all. He left before I was born. And he moved to Nigeria and no one knows where he's at since then I only mentioned that because my mom was both

my mom and my dad essentially in a sense like being the the the breadwinner and the just keeping the home so just seeing how she maintained her faith in adversity like that really had a big impact on me. Yeah. But, you know, seeing her faith, seeing how, you know, how she persevered through a lot of trials and adversity, even seeing all that, I had a good idea who God was. But I loved my sin. I knew as early as five years old that I was a child of wrath. It was pretty easy to see I was very sinful. I still am very sinful. But while I was always convicted of sin and I knew I needed to repent, I never did. I loved my sin too much. It wasn't until I was 19 at a youth retreat at church. Now, so some good things do happen at youth retreats.

They preached the gospel, and I'll tell you, so this was actually a prosperity gospel church. This is how I grew up. So it was not a very good preaching of the gospel whatsoever, It was not a very good preaching of the gospel whatsoever, but they preached—the pastor simply said Christ died for sinners. And just like that, though I heard that many times before, I was like, I'm a sinner. Like, that's me. And then right away, I was born again, and I believed in Christ. I loved Christ, and I hated my sin. And since then, I've been following Him.

Okay, awesome. Well, man, that's a beautiful story. Yeah, sometimes the gospel can be preached in context. We wouldn't expect it, you know, and God works through mysterious ways. I've got many of those kinds of stories along the way in my own journey. But let's dive into the race conversation. I'm not even sure how to set it up, but I guess just say, hey, we'd love to hear your – I know you've done a lot of thinking about various things. I'm particularly interested in how we should understand race, racism, racial tensions, even things like systemic racism or even more specifically, I know you've written on critical race theory and things that I've had other people on the podcast talking about. But however you want to jump in, yeah, we'd love to hear your thoughts and how you think through the very volatile race conversation happening today.

Yeah. So just before I start, I think some of the audience might be thinking, well, he's a black Canadian. How do you navigate all that? Well, just to give people a background as to just the two nations, Canada and America have somewhat of a different history concerning slavery. We also had slavery here. We had segregation here as well, too. They're very similar. The only difference is it wasn't anywhere near as severe in Canada as it was in the U.S., right? I mean, Canada was, as Martin Luther King Jr. said, that it was the promised land in that that was where a lot of the underground railroad was not just leading to North America or Northern America, I should say, the Northern states, but also primarily in Canada. So a lot of black Canadians here originally were basically running from slavery from the U.S. Nevertheless, when they came here, still had some suffocation here as well too, even near Toronto where I'm at, but not quite as severe as it was. But because of the similar histories, though different in scope, a lot of the same issues persist here. We have the same disparities. So, for example, in Toronto, 70 percent of the police shootings are against black people.

Wow. Yeah. So that's even higher than as far as I know anywhere else in the U.S. So we have a lot of the same. We have Black Lives Matter, Toronto here. And I would say they're probably the more radical group, actually, of the entire chapters. Okay.

Because they have, of course, chapters in the U.S. and in the U.K. and Canada. And the Canadian one is pretty radical. That's really helpful because I think the American perception of Canada is that you guys are so progressive that these kind of justice issues don't don't they've been eradicated for the most part you know yeah well you see and that's the thing that's that's what I try to warn Americans is that yes progressivism is a major aspect of Black Lives Matter they are a progressive group but that there's I would say it's unending. They want complete, I mean,

and they will say this, they want a completely anti-Western society. They want to, they want a revolution. And until that happens, that will not be enough, which is why Black Lives Matter and critical race theory is still very prominent here. Just right now, I'm working on an article about how my local school district board is pushing intense critical race theory in the school so much that I have several teachers who are within the school board who are messaging me saying, hey, man, like, can you expose what's happening here? Because it's pretty bad. And recently I spoke at a Canadian Christian university and I guess they didn't know what I would say. I didn't lie to them. They just asked me to come speak. And then when I spoke there, I guess they thought that I was

going to be pushing critical race theory or agreeing with their views. I didn't know what their views were necessarily. I had an idea, but I was like, well, they invited me, so let me just come speak. And the title of the talk was simply, What is Racism? And I just define what biblical racism or what racism is biblically. And afterward, they sent a public letter denouncing me for basically defending racism and for being anti-Black and anti-people of color. Now, as you can tell, I'm a Black man. I was going to ask. was yeah i was wondering yeah so for me to be labeled anti-black is quite interesting although i've been hearing that a lot these days um so all these issues are still very much prominent in canada um you know even right now actually there there is a movement movement. We have our Independence Day of sorts on July 1st called Canada Day.

There is a movement called Cancel Canada Day because of our history of oppression in the past against people of color, especially the indigenous people here. So you have a lot of the Black Lives Matter, critical race theories within Canada pushing to make Canadians not celebrate our Independence Day. Okay. Well, now I'm curious with that talk you gave, can you give us the snapshot of what you said in your talk that caused you to be accused of being anti-Black? Yes. So if you don't mind, actually, I can just read a quick text. That's what I started with, and I think it's just helpful. That's what I always want to start with when it comes to the issue of racism. So, sorry. Okay, so it's 2 Timothy 3.12. I'll just start there. Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,

while evil people and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it. And from childhood you have been acquainted with sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. Now here's a key part for the talk. All scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

that the man of God may be completely ripped for every good work. I mentioned that because I said, look, if you want may be complete, ripped for every good work. I mentioned that because I said, look, if you want to be truly anti-racist, if you want to share what God says about racism, if you want to understand what racism is, what justice is, how to love black people, the greatest book you can have in the world for that is this, because the scriptures are sufficient. They are able to make you wise. It makes you competent for every good work. Then I said, look, biblically, according to the Bible and also particularly James 2, verse 1 to 4, racism is simply partiality against someone. It's bias against someone. It's not a

unique sin. It's a more particular type of partiality. It's partiality or bias against someone because of their skin color. Therefore, theologically, it's no different than me showing partiality against you because of your skin color, Preston, or because you might be taller than me, you might be shorter than me, you might be, you know, you're in better shape than I am in, right? If I show partiality against you because you are in great shape, well, that's the exact same sin as racism, right? Which is offensive to people because people say, wait a minute, well, this historical oppression and everything. I was like, well, that's true. say, wait a minute, well, there's historical oppression and everything. I was like, well,

that's true. We can acknowledge that. But before God, when a racist faces God, they will be judged for partiality. And if I, well, when I go before God, I will be judged for partiality too in different ways. All right. So I explained that. And then I mentioned that therefore, if we are going to claim that our nation, Canada or America, is systemically racist, biblically as Christians, we need to give evidence of partiality within the system. Not by outcome, right, but by intent. Because as James says, partiality is to make distinctions between people. It is always by motivation and intent. So I can't judge racism based by perception or by how it makes me feel or by outcome. It's by someone's intention in what they were doing. So that's helpful. And because I'm just trying to understand the conversation, as I understand it, the argument for systemic racism is based at least partially, if not fully, in unequal outcomes. Is that correct? Among the black community in particular, not necessarily people of color, because Asian Americans always sort of wrench wrench into that or even

first generation immigrant I mean you yourself are an immigrant from what I've heard the outcome for first generation immigrants even from Africa or whatever is is still different than people who are are African American have been in America for for a long time um and if I say anything that needs to be fat let me tell my audience, everything I'm saying fact-checked. I'm just recalling from stuff I've read. So it may or may not be correct. You guys need to do your own research. But as the argument goes,

because there is unequal outcome in terms of poverty, crime rates, whatever, among the black community in particular, therefore, there's something systemically wrong or there's something wrong with the very systems, the structures in place. Am I representing that argument well? And then that's what you're arguing against. That is a major, major part of the argument.

The argument is just, I would say, really just perception as well. So, for example, when it comes to the law, when it comes to the nation, the system itself, that is the argument. But they would even say that even things like certain businesses, right? Or even churches, that even if you don't have equality, even if you have no disparities, if certain people do not feel included in certain things, right, could be that. Or, for example, if there's a church where you have a diversity in the members, but you don't have a voice for black people within the leadership, for example, that could be seen as being systemically racist. that could be seen as being systemically racist. So it can be not just in terms of disparities is the biggest part,

but the other thing is more so also perceptions, which I think is a major problem, because then what's the authority on what is truly racist and what isn't, right? Which is what you have to go by, I would say, well, I don't think it's me saying it, I think it's the Bible, is that we should be slow to speak and we should be quick to listen.

We should not we should be hoping all things and believing all things. Right. If certain things that could seem like they're racist when they're not really, if we look into it. So if you were to say something to me that were to. So, for example, if you asked me, as you did earlier, well, where are you from? That could be seen as being racist because well what do you mean where am i from why why wouldn't you assume that i'm just born you know in canada you you know which which believe me it's actually they would call that a microaggression right and i know you weren't doing that right i know this question is fine but because of some people some people sorry yeah some people have experienced genuine like actual actual racist saying, well, you don't belong here.

Where are you from? Right. Yeah. Because of that, you're doing it for the very same thing when you're not. So then I have to assume, well, I have to obey what God calls me to do, which is to hope all things, to believe all things that let me assume the best of you, essentially. Now, concerning the disparity argument for racism, well, that creates a lot of problems. So, for example, there's Tom Lasso. I don't know if you're familiar with Tom Lasso, but I admire him a lot. He mentions that people from the same household have unequal outcomes, right? And it's true. So, my older brother, for example, he and I were raised by the same parent, our mom a lot more money than I do he's doing a lot better in life than I am right is that because my mom was showing partiality against me

and favoring him no is that different people have different outcomes different trees bear different different fruits then one example that I would use is the parable of talents, for example, where you have the master giving the three different servants different talents, right? He gave the first talent. So if you give the first servant five talents, he gave the second servant two talents. He gave the third servant one talent. In the end, not to go through the whole parable, but in the end, the first two were able to double, make a profit. The first one didn't, and he's punished by the servant. Well, if we then, let's assume then that the third servant is a black man. Now, all of a sudden, if we believe that disparities are evidence of injustice, then we would have to believe that the master who is supposed to represent Christ in that parable is unjust. Because it just happens to be that the black man is the third person who received less money than everybody else.

And even in heaven, for example, there will be disparities in heaven. Now, I'm not saying it will be racial, but there will be disparities. There's no equality of outcome. And biblically, you don't see equality of outcome being seen as evidence of justice. And even when it comes to equality of outcome, sorry if I'm talking too much. No, no, no no that's why you're here even when it comes to quality of outcome uh within black people you actually have disparities so immigrants actually are actually doing better uh socioeconomically

than even white americans and white canadians uh the ghanians nigerians the west africans uh which i'm you know a member of, financially or economically, we're doing better. Than even white Americans, you're saying? Yes, than even white Americans, yes. So then the question is, well, why is that? Is it because of – is it disparities because of skin color or is it because of several factors? And I would say the biggest factor there, and this is, I wrote an article on my blog, not to promote it, but it was called Our Fathers Are Failures, where I use my

own story and experiences to mention that the biggest issue facing Black people, the biggest disparity is fatherlessness, right? So the gap between, and it is similar also in Canada as well. In America, black black children grow up without fathers at a rate of 70, 75 percent. So 75 percent of black children do not have their fathers in the home. 75 percent. Well, compared to white Americans, it's actually the complete opposite, where it's only 25% of them who do not have their fathers in the home. That's too much as well, too. But you have a 50% gap between that. That's going to lead to other things. the biggest issue facing Black Americans is fatherlessness because, and every study shows this, fatherless children are much more likely to not graduate from high school, which was me,

are much more likely to become criminals, which, or at least be indulging in criminal activity, which was me, to be much more violent, to be, to have, to have early sexual activity, which is me, which leads to, of course, them repeating the same issue in terms of creating more fatherless homes and everything else. So these are the biggest issues. And it's true that if you do not graduate from high school, you're not going to be doing as well as your peers. What do you say? Because, and again, I'll say it one more time, then I'll stop qualifying my questions. But I'm reflecting on something I heard somewhere, whatever. So again, if it's accurate, then great.

If not, then please fact check me. I've heard people say that, yes, all that's true. certain structures left over from segregation and redlining and zoning and clustering poor Black people in certain neighborhoods and preventing them. So even that outcome of fatherlessness is partially due to unjust structures, whether they're still in place or maybe they're left over from a previous era that was unjust. Is that an accurate representation? What would you say to that? No, you're right. That's the main argument. Why that's wrong is actually because, and I explained this in the article I mentioned, Our Fathers, Our Failures, on my blog. But initially, actually, when slavery was ended for the next several 30, 40 decades, sorry, 30, 40 years, you actually had more black men in the home than white men in the home.

You had like it was a much greater rate of black fathers staying in the home than white fathers. And think about it, right? That's because, well, you know, in slavery, you didn't have a right to your family. So when they were finally freed, they cherished the idea of the family because now they had something of their own. They were the heads of their families and leading their wives and leading their children. But it wasn't really till you see the first cracks of that changing with the New Deal by FDR, where you see the government playing a role in creating a little

bit the first stages of the welfare system. And then especially 1960s, that's when you see a huge rise. And that was really when LBJ introduced the Great Society, where he was actually warned by some of his own people in his party saying, hey, what you're about to do, we're already seeing trends of, because of the government trying to help Black communities, are actually leading more Black men away from the home. So if you implement this, you're actually going to end up perhaps accelerating this to make it into creating a disaster. And right when you have the Great Society in LA, I think it was in 68 when it started, that's when you had a massive, massive rise in fatherlessness within Black families.

So I would say that's not the main reason. But also, even in Canada and the UK, so I mentioned this in the article, in Canada, we don't have quite the same history, as I said before, as Americans. And yet the fatherlessness rate here is almost identical to what it is in America, as it is also in the UK as well. So if America's history with slavery and segregation is the main issue, then why then would it be that even at the height of segregation and slavery, well, right after the segregation and slavery, you had more black men in the home than now. And even, of course, again, with Canada and the UK, where those histories aren't quite the same, you have the same disparities as well, too. So I think those examples dispel the idea that it is America's history with slavery and segregation that is the cause of fatherlessness. So just to summarize, so at the end of the 60s in particular,

fatherlessness was way, way lower than it is now. And nobody would say we're more racist now than we were in the late 60s, right? Or maybe some people would say that... Some critical racists actually say that. Only a white person could say that. I've heard people say that. Like, things are worse now than under segregation. I'm like, you're white, right?

I don't know. Well, some of them say, some critical race theorists say that because the disparities now worldwide, I mean, not worldwide, but universally in America, are much, not worldwide, but universally in America are much, much worse than they were in the 60s, which is shocking. But like, socioeconomic disparities between Black Americans and white Americans today is significantly worse

than it was in the 60s. So that's a good question. Well, why is that, right? If racism is much, I mean, if it's much more rare than it is then, which is just proven, right? The numbers prove it. The attitudes, it's a fact. But because of the disparities, critical race theory say, well, then, or people who support Black Lives Matter, they say, well, that can't be the case then. And that's one of the problems with believing that disparities is evidence of racism. If you believe that, then that becomes a foundation to how you define racism. Right. So even though things are clearly, clearly better, again, a number of shoulders across the board, because of the disparities when it comes to outcome, they claim that it has to be worse or the same.

So what is the answer then? Why is there such a high rate of fatherlessness? I mean, poverty and criminal activity, would that be accurate too? That that has increased among the black community more than other communities?

And if that's true, then why if it's not racism or systemic racism, what is it then? A lot of it is just the government, right? So with the Great Society, which is why it's fascinating right now when many critical race theories or many people in general talk about reparations being needed. Well, the irony of that, well, it's not really ironic, but it's interesting because the Great Society was deemed as a form of appropriations for black people. So LBJ and the Democrats, they very much targeted pushing the Great Society, the war on poverty and things like that for the black community by introducing the welfare system, particularly to help, of course, the poor, all people, but particularly also dealing with Black people to help them because they believed that if they were to create

the welfare system, it would be a means of paying back the injustices through slavery and segregation. But the welfare system completely just has harmed the Black families and white families too, but especially the black family when you target um or when you try to help out one particular group uh in that way and that one particular group has been the one that's been most affected by it um in both ways um you know that's of course a sign of how bad that that that um that um that wasn't that uh project was yeah so that's it that's the welfare system playing a big role. And you see that too over here in Canada, where again, similar history, but not quite as severe. And yet the

welfare system is absolutely, and I know, I grew up in a welfare system and I see how it affects black families, especially because naturally, if you have a man in the home, well, then you can't get as much support from the government. Right. And it creates this idea that, well, I know many I know many families, some relatives of mine who will divorce just so they can get the welfare system or who will refuse to remarry or to bring in their men. Now, of course, not everyone does this, but for many cases, they're like, well, if you come in and then we don't have the government backing anymore, then what's the point of you coming in? Which, of course, harms the children. Wow.

This is exactly what Shelby Steele argues in his book, White Guilt. Are you familiar with that? And is that, was, I mean, again, as I've said offline, mean i'm i'm just i'm coming out this whole conversation as a learner i'm just absorbing different viewpoints and stuff so i read um people across the board okay i read d'angelo and and kendy and i've read shelby steel and glenn lowry and very different kind of opinions but i would say shelby i read shelby steel alongside d'angelo's book white fragility

and just i'm just my anecdotal experiences i mean i thought d'angelo's book was just horribly argued maybe she's right her conclusion i just thought the book the argument was hideous i mean just just it wouldn't fly in any kind of like legitimate academic setting with any kind of alternative viewpoints. It was just, just the logic of it was just, it just, I just thought it was unconvincing. And again, maybe our conclusions, right? I can care less about that. Really. I just, as an academic, I like to look at how people get there and how they're building evidence and logical connections. And that was just, it was, she would have failed my class. But Shelby Steele's book, I don't know, I was much more convinced by it. And certainly a black man writing about his experience growing up in segregation is going to carry more weight than a white lady who says that she, you know,

is already skittish around black people and has racism coming out of her. I'm like, girl, you got problems, man. I don't know. Or they also, sorry not to cut you off, but she also suggested that guys like Martin Luther King Jr. and Barack Obama are actually racist too, especially Martin Luther King, as many critical race theories do,

because Martin Luther King believed, of course, in the famous words of not judging people by their color, but by their character. Yeah. Which is, again, it's so important that I keep saying this because if we accept the belief that racial disparities are evidence of racial discrimination, therefore the only way then to end discrimination is to end disparities. So then that creates a problem. Well, that's why Robin, not Robin DiAngelo, but her colleague Ibram Kendi says racial inequality, so racial discrimination is wrong only if it leads to racial disparities. I'm getting myself confused here, so I'll say it again. He was saying that racial discrimination is only wrong if it leads to racial disparities. However, racial discrimination is good if it leads to racial equity or racial parity. That's what he's saying here, which means that since white people across

the board are more privileged than black people, therefore you need then to discriminate against white people systemically. That way, by bringing them down, you could have more equality. Or by bringing them down, you could have, in his mind, black people coming up, right? So that's the problem with thinking that disparities in and of themselves prove discrimination, which is why I say that the Bible is a lot better in giving us wisdom on this, that partiality or racism, discrimination is by intent, not by outcome. What about unconscious bias? Because yeah, of course, if there is intent, clear acts of racism, we're all going to say that's wrong. But what if people are acting out of just implicit bias? And of course you can't really, how do you prove that? Maybe you can't, but is there a place to acknowledge that, you know,

say a business guy's CEO, he's white, all his friends are white and he was inherited wealth and he hires a lot of white people and that's his whole network. And, and, um, black person applies for the job. Maybe he's on paper just as qualified as the next guy. Could there not be a place for him? Not really out of overt, like I hate black people, but just unconsciously hiring white people over black people. I'm kind of just asking the question out loud. I don't know if I'm framing it right or if that's even helpful.

Yeah, I understand you. I'm grateful of just asking the question out loud. I mean, I don't know if I'm framing it right or if that's even helpful. Yeah, I understand you. I'm grateful for your question. It's a good question. It's a very important question. So the problem with that is the word bias itself requires you to be conscious to be biased, right? Especially as it deals with partiality. So I don't know if you can hear that.

The thunderstorm is around here. But like, so the word partiality is it's intentional right now as a Christian first I'm happy to talk about the logical aspects of unconscious bias but as a Christian like bias is partiality and as James

describes it, it is never unconscious, it's always by intention you are always making distinctions between people, right? So if we're going to, because then biblically, say within the church, if someone is guilty of unconscious bias, well, how do you prove it? How do you do macro routine, right? And that should be true for everybody else. I don't want someone assuming the worst of me, right? I want someone to assume the best of me as God calls them to hope all things, to believe all things. The problem with unconscious bias is, as I said earlier, you can't

prove it. And the issue is, biblically, or even just morally general, if you accuse someone of something and you can't prove it, you're the one who's in sin. You're the one who's in wrong. You're the one who's in bias. So just to give an example, I was walking, and I always share this example many times. So I was walking in a dark tunnel once. This was a winter. It was a very dark tunnel. And it's in a very isolated area in my neighborhood. I'm walking this tunnel. And then as I'm walking there, I see this young lady on the other end of the tunnel. She's a young white woman, small woman, very petite. And as soon as she sees me, she just freezes up and she looks terrified. And then I'm a big, I'm a big man. I'm a big black man. So she sees me and she's terrified. And then she,

now the walls in this tunnel are pretty dirty she essentially attaches herself to the tunnel um and just clutches her purse and just speed speed walks fast away from me and immediately i'm thinking man yet again you know happening again i'm a black man a white woman sees me she's terrified of me she thinks because I'm black I'm going to harm her and here we are again then as I'm walking I think to myself well wait a minute wait a minute is it because I'm black but let me think about this well what if I actually do what God calls me to do which is to again hope all things believe all things assume the best of her, and to consider her as more significant than myself, as Philippians tells me to do.

And I think, well, what if she's actually a victim of sexual assault in the past? And when she sees me, now she's just afraid. She's vulnerable. What if she's doing as my, I've told my little, what's the word, sister to do, which is that it's a very, women are vulnerable in that tunnel. So I've told my sister that, look, every time you're in that tunnel and you see a man, just be careful. What if she's just doing what I've told others to do? And then I'm thinking, well, what if it was a black woman and she did the same thing? Would I think she was racist? I wouldn't think that at all. And then I thought, wait a minute, I'm doing what I'm accusing her of doing against me,

which is if she wasn't a white person, I wouldn't assume she was being racist. I'm assuming she's being racist when I'm actually the one who's being racist there. Now, she might be a racist. She might be, but it's not my job to assume the motives of why people do what they do, but it's my job to discern my own motives. So could she be a racist? Maybe, but I know for sure that I am. And God calls me to assume the best of people. And that's the issue with unconscious bias, that in determining that we are actually assuming, we are using our own bias to determine others of being unconsciously biased, because it's always directed towards white people, not black people.

Right. So that's the issue with that whole. That's that's yeah, that's helpful. And like you said, maybe she's racist. Like that's one of several possibilities. Right. But to assume that is you're saying that's going beyond what Scripture kind of allows believers to do, really. That's good. Have you experienced like what you would call overt racism, where it's like, no doubt about this was a racist comment, act, whatever?

Oh, for sure. I experienced that. act whatever oh for sure i experienced that um actually i've experienced that in different ways but uh particularly uh at school one of my teachers was brutally racist towards me for an entire year uh where he would um he would in front of the whole class and at the time and today it would never fly but at the time um people would just laugh along with him i wasn't laughing but i didn't really have a i didn't really know how to address it um but yeah he would he would use you know racial slurs against me make fun of how dark i was make fun of um you know where i come from, Africa, routinely teasing me and showing obvious partiality against me in other ways as well, too.

That was the worst form. That was hard for me. I didn't I don't want to go to school. I don't want to go to class because of that. I was a bit embarrassed, too, because interestingly, a lot of my black friends, well, not black friends, but black classmates were laughing along with it. friends well not back friends but black classmates were laughing along with it because in particular he was making fun of not just i was a black person but i was an african black person and i'm darker than the average black person and since a lot of those guys were not as dark as i was they were laughing along if anything there were actually people who would um repeat what he would say to me you know in the hallway and things like that um so i've definitely experienced that before i've experienced other forms as well too but to me that even I think the kind of racism that we don't talk about a lot these days is, you know, recently there was a prominent Christian leader who

mentioned that a lot of his black friends do not trust him because he's white, because they've experienced racism before or people that they know have experienced racism before. So he said that it's understandable that they don't trust him. Well, that's actually racism. What are you saying? And we wouldn't think of it that way, but it's actually very distressed. I would say these days, or especially within the church, it's one of the most destructive forms of racism. Because if a white person says that, if a white person says, you know, yeah, I have, you know, I myself have experienced racism from black people or some harm from black people.

And because I just don't trust black people, we would say, well, that's racism. You shouldn't judge that black friend or that black person based on what others have done to you. Well, the issue why that's racism is because the Bible calls us not to rejoice at wrongdoing or not to justify wrongdoing. It's sinful for someone to not trust another person strictly based on what other people have done.

It's sinful, it's wrong, it's partiality, It's bitterness. So if a white person says it's okay if black people do not trust white people, you are justifying our sin. You are showing partiality against us because we're black, right? And that's sinful. That's wrong. That's racism. So, I mean, I've been seeing that a lot, the way I know that I can get away with certain things as a black person that white people wouldn't get away with. That if a white person would say that, they would be called to repent, which is love, right? It's loving to call people to repent. So if because I'm black, I will say things that will make you afraid of wanting to rebuke me or to call me to repent, that's racism. That's you choosing not to love me because I'm black.

And it's a very major issue, I think, within the church today that we're not addressing. Wow. Wow. Thanks for always bringing it back to the Bible. It's fascinating how the Bible often isn't, I don't know, consulted in race conversations. That's an overstatement, but in many, even across in Christian circles sometimes. So that's, yeah, that's super helpful. I'm curious about the concept of white privilege. Do you have thoughts? I love when I ask a question, you kind of crack up like, yes, Preston, you didn't read my blog on that, did you? No, no, no, it's okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What are your thoughts on that concept?

I mean, we hear that all the time. And I honestly don't know what I'm thinking through it, you know? Yeah. Well, I will say – well, no, I'll let you answer then if you – I might throw in some of my thoughts on it. No problem. if the term, if what they meant by it was strictly to say, it just happens to be that white people are more privileged than black people because of majority culture, maybe a number of different things. If that's just what they meant by that, I wouldn't phrase it that way, but I say, okay, that's true. It's

true that being part of a majority, I wouldn't call it a majority culture, but just you see more white people in America and Canada than you do black people, right? And there are several, there are some cultural differences necessarily. So if that was the case, I would say I agree with that generally. But white privilege basically means because systemic racism exists, it naturally leads to an easier life for white people. that way within our founding principles and that it's maintained through our founding principles and it will be so unless you abolish systemic racism, which then leads to a change in the culture. So generally, white privilege can mean anything like just the socioeconomic status. It's primarily that. So it usually deals with the disparities angle as well, too, or just what it would call

cultural norms and things like that, that benefit white people, it would say. Well, the problem with that is, again, it assumes a lot. It makes a lot of assumptions. And again, the data itself as well, too, there are several variables within that. As I mentioned earlier, of variables within that. As I mentioned earlier, West Africans or African immigrants are, if you look at just how they phrase it, at least by socioeconomic statuses, they are much more privileged than white people are, as are Asian Americans. Now, they would say things like the lack of diversity might be evidence of white privilege. Well, I don't think so, because it's just a bigger population. In the same way that where I'm from Ghana, for example, I'm a member of my tribe, we're called the Fantis.

We are a smaller tribe. The bigger tribe is our rivals, the Ashantis. Now, the Ashantis, they dominate Ghanaian culture. No one says, well, that's just Ashanti privilege. It's just the fact that they're just a bigger population, just the way it is. Anywhere you go, you're going to have a more dominant group just because of the population size. So I reject white privilege because it assumes there is a nefarious reason as to why white people today are more generally privileged than the average black person.

What I would say, though, is, again, going back to the beginning, I think the biggest reason why white people tend to be more privileged, I suppose, than black people is, again, the fatherlessness issue. So I say there's actually a fatherless. So there is a father privilege or parents privilege in the world is not based on your skin color. And to prove this, for example, white people who grew up without dads have the exact basically the same socioeconomic status as black people who grew up without dads. have basically the same socioeconomic status as black people who grew up without dads. And the black people who grew up with dads have the same socioeconomic status as the white people who do grow up without dads. Really? Would people push back on that or is that pretty established? It's established.

Now, some might push back on that, but the numbers show that. Now, of course, it's not the exact same number, but it's eerily similar. Wow. So, yeah, no, that's super helpful. I think we – and these are thinking out loud questions that may be totally wrong or off – wrongheaded. But I don't know. Is it right to say we should define privilege too? Is it simply wealth? I mean, or should we measure it mental health and happiness and

depression rates? I mean, there's to say that no wealth is the goal of life and that give, and it's like, is that a Christian, does that reflect the Christian view of what privilege even means? But then also like I, when people raise a privilege question, and again, I think there's some legitimacy to it with any majority culture, given especially the history of power differentials and oppression and all this. I'm going to assume, yes, that probably has some lasting effects in many cases. But when people say, do you believe in white privilege? I'm like, in what context? Yeah.

It just seems sociologically naive to make such a blanket statement. Like if I'm a, um, white person, um, trying to be a professional hockey player or maybe I'm trying to be a hip hop artist, you know, maybe I'm walking through South central LA at night. does my whiteness bring me more privilege or less privilege then? What about my height? If I want to be a basketball player and I'm 5'6 or

if I'm a 6'8 black person which one has more privilege? And these are kind of yeah, what about, all I'm saying is from my vantage point again, maybe I'm totally missing it, but it just seems like to make such a blanket statement that doesn't consider layers and layers and layers. What about with somebody who's autistic? What if they're disabled?

What if they have a family life, but they were sexually abused by their father? And does that, it just, I think I need to ask like a hundred different questions before I determine this person has more privilege than this next individual. I don't know. Is that am I? That's exactly right. And I completely agree with you. I can tell you playing playing basketball when I was younger. If you're a white guy, you show up, you know, with my friends and you're a court. We're going to make fun of you. We're going to make fun of you. This white boy can't play. Right. You know what I mean? And sometimes many times they could, but we just assumed that, well, they can't because they're white, right? Or I can even tell you now, I don't know what your views on, you know, over here in Canada, we're still basically under lockdown, essentially, with the COVID and everything.

I've been making a joke about my black privilege because, especially as a big black man, I don't wear a mask um i don't think i need to uh for a number of reasons nevertheless everybody else here is wearing a guy i'm i'm an anomaly like when i say trust like it's it's shocking to me when they see me without wearing a mask now i have some friends who are white who don't wear a mask and they tell me all the time how many times they get shot at and they get called out. Never happened to me. Never happened to me whatsoever. I make a joke saying because of my black privilege. Well, right now in today's society, do you really want to be shouting at a black man? Right? It doesn't look good that way. Right? And I'll tell you this too. This is horrible, but it's what I did when I

was younger. This is a power of accusing white people of racism. I knew at 16 years old how powerful it was. I, as I said before, I was, um, I was not a Christian at the time at all. And I was living a very sinful life. And I attempted to, um, shoplift, um, you know, at the time, and I got caught. When I got caught, the security guard approaches me, and right away, almost without thinking, I said, you're doing this because I'm black. I know that's not why he's doing it, but I knew if I say that, it could help me get away from,

get from being responsible for my sinful actions, my criminal actions right away i still remember the horror on his face when i said that and immediately he just said just drop it and go just he didn't want anything to do with it because of what i just said well if that white person if you're white and you say that to a black man, that's not going to go anywhere. It's like, whatever. It won't go anywhere. If you're a white person and you're saying that to a white security officer, that's not going anywhere. Because I'm black and I said that, I had the privilege of, yeah, well, if I say that, who knows?

He can get in trouble for that. He doesn't want that whatsoever. Our society hates racism against black people so much that white people are afraid of even being labeled as a racist so you know so yeah what you're saying I agree with you they're different layers to all this stuff that it's completely unjustified and unhelpful to you know and and even even outside of that too we have as an immigrant to North America I can tell you, like, I have family members, I have relatives who cannot read their own name. They just can't because they just didn't have the education. We are, what about North American privilege?

What about Western privilege? If you live in North America already, you are one of the most wealthiest and most educated people in the world, not just in the world, but in the history of the world. What about even Arab privilege? There's all these different blessings and all these things that we don't think about, but instead we're really just bitter and we're trying to say, it's really envy. this person has more than me okay well somebody else would say that they have less than you so what's the point right let's just be grateful for what we have let's count every blessing let's count every one of our blessings or or uh privileges um instead of trying to check you know check our privilege as a way of accusing others of being basically oppressors against the oppressed.

That's good. Wow. Going back to something you said earlier, what do you think about the criminal justice system? Do you know? I know nothing about that, but, you know, I have heard that there are sort of biases against Black people in particular, at least in the American criminal justice system. Do you know enough about it to say anything about that?

Or even, yeah. The one example I've been given is like, if you get busted for cocaine, which is typically a white man's drug, you're going to get way less of a sentence than getting busted for a crack, which is the same substance, but a lesser grade. To me, that's more of a socioeconomic disparity, not necessarily a racial one, I think, but I don't know. The irony of that is, so the very same arguments are true here as well, too. We have very similar disparities and things like that over here. Actually, disparities here in some ways are actually worse than it is in America. But the issue with that is the reason why crack itself receives more severe punishment is because you have the Black Caucus, the Democratic Party and Black leaders themselves who said, let's make that actually more severe because it was harming more black people. So that's the irony of it all in that the reason why crack, you know, because it was

destroying many young black people. So then you have the leader saying, well, let's put them in jail to warn other black. It's more severely to warn other black people from following that lifestyle or to just harming little kids who were being sold these drugs. So that's why you had it much worse than cocaine. Because, yeah, the cocaine was an issue in the 80s, but crack itself was destroying black people at a much higher rate. So the irony is, a long time, you had Reagan being accused of racism because of his inaction against crack.

He was being called a racist. He was saying, well, you don't care about black homes. We're being destroyed by this. You're not doing anything about it. So he was pressured into doing that. Now, Nixon started that. Nixon was also being called racist for that reason as well, too. But then Reagan especially was called racist by the black leaders like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton.

Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, they were all saying this because of the fact that he initially was not focusing on the – not just him, but the entire American system was not addressing that issue. And then also even now – so people compare crack and cocaine. I get that, but the actual greater comparison is meth and cocaine. And for – sorry, meth – I, not meth and cocaine, meth and crack, which is meth is the white man's drug. Right? So the punishments for meth and crack

are actually identical. Really? So that's the comparison, yeah. I have never heard that. Wow. Gosh. What about other aspects of when people say the criminal justice system is bent towards, is stacked against black people? Is there other arguments that people use? I've mentioned the word critical race theory a lot today. Yeah. And I think by helping to define it, it might help people understand where these arguments are coming from, especially as it deals with the criminal justice system. America's legal institutions are irredeemably racist because they – this is what critical race theorists would say – because they advocate for impartiality when it's impossible. that they believe that the Western society is really built by and for white men, really,

to oppress women and Black people, especially Black people. So because of that, they believe that the whole idea of justice is blind is really just a way to manipulate people into thinking that what's truly oppression, discrimination is impartiality and justice. So that's why they believe that racial neutrality is impossible and it's actually in and of itself racist, which is why they claim that MLK himself was internalizing racism. So I think with that in mind, it's helpful to know that the reason why many people say that the system itself is racist is because of the very principles within the system. Even before you get to the disparities, they believe that you should

have consideration for someone being black, right? And, you know, believing that, you know, so that's why you hear many, you hear arguments about, well, black on black crime. Well, the reason why reason why that's happening is not because black people are just committing crimes. It's because the system itself is making them commit crimes. So you should understand that, be compassionate toward that, and give them linear sentences as a kind of reparations as well, too. So when people are talking about the outcomes or the disparities. It's not just disparities. They think that you should, in many cases, eliminate all that as justice for black people, which is why you hear, of course, too, about abolishing or defunding the police and abolishing even prisons. So Black Lives Matter believe we should abolish prisons in of itself because they don't believe that it's justice, since in their mind, it's just a way of trying to enslave Black people again. So with all that in the background, I think it's helpful to know that. And then I can talk about the outcomes of disparities as a whole. So the issue again is there's no evidence. Disparities

do not prove discrimination. There's no evidence that certain black people are being punished more severely as a whole because of their skin color. There's no evidence of that at all. And you've seen several cases where actually there are some times where black people do get a leniency because of, I think, I would say white guilt in many cases because of that very thing I just told you about. in many cases because of that very thing I just told you about. So even right now, when it comes to police shootings, I'm forgetting his name, but there was a researcher who was not on my side, but he's just an honest researcher. And he came with a conclusion, which has been verified by many people, that white cops are actually now less likely to shoot black people because of fear of what they could be labeled as if they do so. So even when they're in dangerous positions, they won't do so sometimes because they're afraid to be called racist and lose their jobs and lose their livelihood. So that's my answer to that. Wow. Wow. Gosh.

You mentioned earlier some of the, quoteunquote anti-racism movements. And for people that don't know, the phrase anti-racism is identifying one specific kind of movement or way of thinking that is addressing racism. It's a little bit of a misnomer, but it's like if people say, oh, I'm against racism. not misnomer, but it's like, if people say, oh, I'm against racism. Well, most people are against racism, but anti-racism is kind of a, is a coined phrase, right? That's promoted by Kendi and, I mean, D'Angelo and many others. From my naive reading, because I've done a lot of reading in MLK, Malcolm X. And when I read more modern approaches in the anti-racism, they do seem different. And sometimes, you know, people will ask me what I think about it. And I'm like, well, I tend to resonate more with like an MLK approach to racism. And people are kind of like, well,

yeah, that's what all these people are doing too. I'm like, well, I don't know if they are. Like, I just doesn't feel. And again, I'm just a guy who reads a lot and listens a lot, but it just doesn't seem like it's the same approach. Like, I don't think Kendi, Kendi, um, and others would,

would really get along well with MLK or at least, well, I think they'd be have more disagreement than agreement. It seems that's from my, again, that's what it seems like to me. Would that be an accurate, like,

would you resonate with MLK and, and see a big difference between how some of these other people are addressing racial tensions? Yeah. I'm definitely more in agreement with MLK and completely opposed to the civil rights movement that one, Ibram Kendi, in the beginning of his book, How to Be an Anti-racist, he mentions MLK and trying to emulate MLK when he was younger. And then he says he regrets that because he was actually internalizing racism. Oh, wow. Okay. That's how strongly they feel about this. And then Derrick Bell, who's the founder of critical race theory, him and, you know, the Kimberly Crenshaw's and the guys who founded it. They explicitly say that they created critical race theory as a reaction against the civil rights movement.

Because civil rights movement did not go far enough. They simply just ended the laws. But it's like, well, laws itself didn't change anything. They just changed the system, the whole system, to end racism in America. So it's a completely...

So I describe critical race theory not as the offspring of the civil rights movement, but as the offspring of Marxism and post-modernism. Wow. A lot of debates about critical race theory. I've had several people on the podcast talking about it. And I still need to go back and I didn't read, Derek Bell has that seminal essay, right? That if people really want to understand,

what would be kind of a quick reader? If someone says, I want to understand firsthand what critical race theory is, would you recommend Bell? And then there's an introduction to critical race theory, I think, that's pretty... Yes. If people want to know the beginning, anyways, of

critical race theory, that's the essential book. It's several essays from the founders and things like that. It's a hard read. It's very academic. Okay. But that's good but if they want a simpler version of all of that that is an average person's um you know i guess take on it now this person's an average person this person's uh one of the founders uh his name is uh skipping right now oh my goodness what's his name which delgado delgado

yeah that book yeah didn't he write an introduction to critical race theory or something? Yeah, so he helped. Yeah, I think that one's just called Critical Race Theory, I think. I think the one you're referring to is the one that Kimberly Crenshaw edited with guys like him. So that's a good one. If you just want their own

perspective, that's the book. But if you want also a rebuttal against critical race theory from a Christian perspective that explains what critical race theory is and its theological implications, the best book so far is from Vati Bokum, Fault Lines. It's Vati Bokum, not that it really matters, but he's a black man. He's a black theologian and it's an incredible book. That just came out, I think, didn't it? I think it just came out, yeah. Just three, four months ago.

Yeah. Have you read, what about James Lindsay? Are you familiar with him? I mean, do you think he accurately represents? Absolutely. Yeah? Yeah. He's been very influential in Hawaii.

Because for a long time, now I was studying critical race theory, but I was coming from, I was explaining more of its Marxist roots, which is evident. I mean, they admit this. Now they don't, but because they know now the kind of the blowback to it. But in their essays, they mentioned this. You have one of their founders, I'm forgetting his name. I think it's Charles Cook, I think, where he has a book called From Race, no called From Class to Race, where he says that here's where Marx was right,

here's where he's wrong, and here's how we want to correct it by making it not a racial issue, sorry, not a classism issue, but a racial issue. Nevertheless, yeah, James Lindsay, I'm a huge fan of his. His book Cynical Theories is absolutely fundamental as well, too, so I would fundamental uh as well too so i'd recommend that as well i'm always nervous i mean i've been a christian in my life and oftentimes

when somebody just opposes something from the beginning they don't always represent it well you know so i'm always care but everything i've heard of lynn but see i haven't done i haven't done the original work in reading critical race theory but but he seems to be very fair in like, he seems to be very concerned about representing something well, not just creating a straw man and addressing that. That's my impression, at least from what I hear him talk and everything. What about some on the race conversation? Who have been your biggest influences? You mentioned Thomas Sowell. I mean, Shelby Steele came up.

Are there other people that you're like, man, I think these guys are really guys or girls doing it well? I mentioned Vati Bokum earlier. Vati Bokum has had the biggest influence on me. Vati Bokum. And surprisingly to many people, John MacArthur. John MacArthur had a very big impact on me. to many people. John MacArthur. John MacArthur had a very big impact on me. Not because

these racial issues, and I want to stress this, it's not a matter of just racial. It's theology. It is what is the foundation to ethics and justice. What is your foundation? If it's from the world, you will

be lost and you will embrace all these philosophies. But if it's the Bible, you understand what it is, which is why I set it up by reading that text that the Bible is sufficient. So for me, as a black man, because I had learned from guys like John MacArthur and Paul Washer and Charles Spurgeon on making the Bible your foundation for how you understand everything. When I saw a lot of my Black peers embracing these issues, I wanted to think clearly, okay, let me not think with my skin color, but let me think with, well, my soul, what the Bible says. So John McCarthy had a big influence on me.

Owen Strand, I don't know if many people know him, but he's a scholar and he's, he actually just, he has a book coming out, I think next month called Christianity and Wokeness. I've already read it. I endorsed the book. It's brilliant. It's really, really good. I have to, I have to acknowledge that my audience is going to totally resonate with you saying the Bible's our ultimate authority. Most of my audience is going to resonate with that, but you're going to completely lose them by mentioning John MacArthur and Owen Strand, unfortunately, and Paul Washer. I just, my audience is probably, yeah, I just have to acknowledge that. But I went to John MacArthur's college and seminary, so I was nurtured in the environment, so I know it well.

But my commitment to biblical authority has only grown stronger, even though I wouldn't line up with several approaches there. But no, no, it's— For what it's worth, while he's had a big influence on me, I naturally don't agree with him on everything. I just like his approach and desiring— Yeah, yeah yeah yeah and i i kind of can't stand a christianity where if you mention somebody you've been influenced by people like oh i just i'm like measure the content of what a person's saying not somebody they got it from or the book or whatever so i mean i i've got a vast array of influences in my life some of which i like, I might disagree with more than I agree with now, but they had a serious influence on my life.

And, you know, I just, I think it's people get all up in arms over different names and stuff. But yeah, that's funny. Well, Samuel, I've taken enough of your time. You've given us a lot to think about, man. And, and, um, yeah, I'm still, I'm just, I'm, I'm on a journey and thinking through this and I hope my audience will, will think through and, and, and, uh, you've given us a lot to process. And, uh, most of all, man, I just appreciate your humility and thoughtfulness. Like you just, I don't know, you come off as a really authentic dude. So I appreciate that.

Thank you so much. Is it okay if I could just read a text? Absolutely. I guess it would look bad. I said, no, I couldn't read the Bible, I guess. I guess it would look bad. Just quickly, it's been on my mind a lot. Yeah. This might be helpful for people to think through these issues.

Yeah. So the Bible says in Leviticus 19.15, So what he's simply saying is, do not show partiality to the rich to harm the poor, nor should you show partiality or favor the poor to harm the rich. And that deals with black people and white people and women and men, everything. So if we obey God's word and if we follow our God who is impartial and shows no favoritism, we'll be fine. That's a good word, man. That's a good word to end on. Thanks so much, Samuel.

Where can people find you? SlowToWrite.com? Is that right? Yeah. You can also find me on social media, SlowToWrite, across all social platforms. Okay, cool. All right, man. Take care. Thank you so much Thank you.