Theology in the Raw - S8 Ep883: Pastoring Mars Hill Bible Church: Dr. A.J. Sherrill

Episode Date: July 12, 2021

A.J. was the lead pastor of Mars Hill Bible Church, a few years after Rob Bell left, and talks about how he approached ministry in this unique church. We also talk about different theological traditions, political division, patriotism vs. nationalism, and A.J.’s transition to pastor an Anglican church. AJ Sherrill (DMin, Fuller Theological Seminary) has more than twenty years of experience as a pastor, including as lead pastor at Mars Hill Bible Church in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He is now lead pastor at St. Peter's Church in Mount Pleasant, South Carolina. He is an adjunct professor at Fuller Theological Seminary, where he teaches popular courses on transformational preaching and the Enneagram. Sherrill receives many speaking requests to lead Enneagram workshops across the country and is the author of The Enneagram for Spiritual Formation. Learn more about AJ on this website: https://www.ajsherrill.org Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I have on the show today a good friend whom I've known for a while, Dr. Pastor A.J. Sherrill. A.J. was the pastor of Mars Hill Bible Church in Grand Rapids, Michigan, aka Rob Bell's former church, and I've got to know him in that context. And he recently became pastor, lead pastor, I believe, of St. Peter's Church in Charleston, South Carolina, an Anglican church there in the South. He's also the author of several books. A lot of them have to do with the Enneagram. So the Enneagram for Spiritual Formation, Enneagram and the Way of Jesus, and then several other books, Urban Disciple, Following Jesus Through the Gospel of Matthew, Quiet, Hearing God amidst the noise and several

others. He's just such an interesting voice, a gracious pastor, and has had a lot of really unique experiences. We talk a lot about just ecclesiology, church, and what it was like pastoring Mars Hill Church and what it's like in his new position. And it was just a really, I really enjoy any time I get a chance to hang out with AJ, and I think you will as well. If you'd like to support this show, you can go to patreon.com forward slash TheologyNarrah. All the info is in the show notes. Would really appreciate your support. And if you wouldn't mind leaving a review of this show, that would be awesome.

And also sharing this episode and others that you have found helpful on your social media accounts. The only way people know about Theology in Iran is for you to tell them. So thanks for your help. And let's get to know the one and only Dr. A.J. Sherrill. Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I'm here with my friend AJ Sherrill. AJ, you've never been on my show. I can't believe it, man. Every now and then, there's a name that I'm like, what the heck? How come we have not podcasted together? So, thanks for finally coming on. Oh, I guess I finally invited you to come on and thanks for saying yes. Yeah, I didn't want to push my way into your show.

It's funny. We've talked enough over the years that it's great to be with you in this way. But I always just love chatting anyway because I so respect your life and what you've been really trying to do for the last few years. So it's an honor to be together in this way. I appreciate it, man. The feeling is definitely mutual. Why don't we just give a short introduction to who you are for people that don't know your name? And I would love to talk about, I would love to dive into what it was like pastoring Mars Hill Church, one of the most well known and maybe among the more controversial churches in America.

And you filled some pretty big shoes. We'd love to hear how that went. And I will give a little discrepancy here. We would be Mars Hill Bible Church. So the Mars Hill Church that some of your listeners may be thinking, I did not replace Mark Driscoll in Mars Hill Church, Seattle. I was at Mars Hill Bible Church in Grand Rapids, Michigan, founded by Rob Bell. And so just to make sure there's clarity. But yeah, I'm happy to chat about that season. Cool. Yeah. So where were you born, raised? How'd you get in the ministry? And then we'll

jump into your pastoral experience. Yeah, I'm all over the place. I was born in Michigan, raised in Nashville and Orlando, planted a church in LA, lived in Atlanta. I think my fondest years come from doing ministry in New York City at a church called Trinity Grace. Back in the day, I pastored in a neighborhood called Chelsea and just absolutely fell in love with Manhattan, love New York. We had a daughter and just started sensing like, you can raise a daughter here, but we just didn't feel like called to do that. So we responded

to a call to Pastor Mars Hill Bible Church in Grand Rapids back in 2016. And it just felt like the right thing. We had done incredible life-sharing gospel ministry in New York City and just felt like that season after five years was coming to an end. So we transitioned to Grand Rapids and did that for four to five years. And then most recently, I've just had like a call to Anglicanism for a long time and have sort of served undercover as an Anglican, although I'm pretty like what I would call tongue-in-cheek, ecclesiastically promiscuous. Like I, I, I love so much about so many different traditions. Like I love to borrow from the charismatics to the liturgical, to the sacramental, to this, the, you know, I mean, there's just so

many things from Eastern Orthodoxy to even the Jewish synagogue. How do we pull so much beauty into following Jesus? Because I think Jesus is the most creative reality in the entire universe. And so in seeing Christ in so many different church traditions has been a real joy to kind of like be at a buffet table. Nevertheless, we've been called to Anglicanism specifically for the foreseeable future. And I mean, I think probably until I die. So we're serving in a city called Charleston at a church called St. Peter's Church. And it's just a little outpost, a really missional church, egalitarian. So we love women in ministry.

We love charismatic spirituality. We love liturgical, sacramental faith. So we've just tried to blend a lot of streams together for the glory of God. So that's what we're doing here by the beach and just trying to love people every day. So cool. Hey, before I forget, can you move to your right a little bit? My camera's really narrow. Yeah, right there. Perfect. You're centered perfectly there. I resonate so much with that, bro. I don't think I've ever described myself as ecclesiologically promiscuous. I have said I'm

kind of like an ecclesiological mutt, but maybe promiscuous is a little more jarring. But yeah, I mean, given the nature of the work I do, I work with, I mean, 15, 20 different denominations and everywhere I go, man, I always, and maybe it's part of my personality, but there's always a piece, at least a piece of this, whatever ecclesiological tradition. I'm like, man, that is really beautiful. That, that is awesome. I want to kind of integrate that into my own kind of life and, and spirituality, even if there's certain traditions, I'm like, I don't know if I could fully plant two feet into here. There's always beautiful aspects of so many different traditions and denominations. And I've seen so much commonality, really. I'll be in a Reformed

church one weekend, a Wesleyan church, a Presbyterian, a Charismatic. And there's actually a lot more overlap than people often think. In know, in a gospel-centered, humble, biblically faithful church, you know, there's just, there's so much overlap. Yeah, I think people are really committed to, like, cynicism with regard to the church today, and I get it. Like, the church is anything but perfect. I'm certainly far from it. However, I think there's a lot of, there's like a healthy practice of instead of going into somewhere, evaluating it and assessing it as if we're the standard is to say, wow, what's the beauty here? What's the essence of what God is up to that I

can really capture and appreciate and maybe even participate in. And so that's sort of been, I think a good corrective to some of the cliche cynicism that we just see, and I get it. Some of it's real and true and hard and traumatic. And at the same time, there's also beauty in the midst of the brokenness. And so I just am much more attracted in this season of my life to sort of being on beauty hunts rather than just always getting out my guns. rather than just always getting out my guns. No, I say, yeah. And I read story after story of church hurt and abuse and abuse of power and sexual abuse cover-ups and all just sick stuff, right? And you're like, man, that's just, yeah, we need to step it up. But I've had the opportunity of being in churches

where there's massive churches where the leadership is so humble. No power trips. No pastor parking spaces and $300,000 salaries or whatever and sneakers and preachers. I don't know. I've been in just places where the potential for an abuse of power

is rich and ripe, but the leadership has been off the chart, humble and loving and serving the poor and doing things that Christianity should be doing. Not perfect, you know, but man, it's... So I don't know. I've seen so much of the good side of the church. I don't want to discount the negative, but I'm like, it's not all that. You do know there's some amazing pastors out there, you know, and leaders and people and Christians and churches and so on. I want to, so you, did you, did you take over directly after Rob Bell or was there an interim pastor between you two? I forget. Yeah, we had a guy in between us. Um, so I, I did not come in

right after Rob. Um, there were actually a couple iterations and it took about a five year process. And after about five years, um, we came in and moved there from New York. Okay. What was that? So five-year space, it's not like you had to fill, you weren't coming in right on the coattails of Rob. But what was it like coming into Mars Hill?

Can you describe maybe the church for us? People just know it from a big distance, right? They know Rob. They maybe have a vague idea of what his church might look like, but what was it like coming into Mars Hill and pastoring that congregation? Yeah, Mars Hill was creatively a response to things that just needed new life. So there are several denominations that are sort of like big deals in the West Michigan area. And over the course of time, you know that like often tradition doesn't like pass on the flame. It hands you the ashes. And I think what happens is if you don't explain the why of what you're doing in a denomination or a tradition or any sort of history, the next generations are like, wait, what are we doing and And why do we do that? And do we need to do that anymore? I think Marcel was, um, Rob creatively responded to a kind of like religious,

like stodgy deadness in that area. And so the things he was, he was doing back in the early two thousands was just so fresh for people. And I think what can happen is in that sort of trajectory, if you're not careful and you don't have like really good boundaries, you don't really know where that train stops. So it's like, okay, like what are we about? And we know we're not that or that, but what is this? And how do we stay centered? centered. And so I think a lot of my role, and I don't know if this is true for everybody, what I sensed from the elders when they had come to New York, they had seen what we were up to in Chelsea through Trinity Grace, the elders were just like, we feel like there is a movement back toward like authentic historicity to the sacraments, to the spirit, and all with like a Jesus centered reality. So it was sort of like,

like there's this church in Ephesus that if you've read revelation that happens where, you know, the spirit of Christ is writing through John. And it's basically saying like, Hey, you've done like really great things and you love the poor and blah, blah,

blah. But you've sort of lost your first love. And so you should, you should go back and find your first love. And I felt like through the process of time, and I'm not going to blame anyone for this, I'll just blame time. I think it's easy for churches, organizations to lose their first love. It's a fight to keep your first love. You have to intentionally pursue that, Otherwise you'll drift. And I think that Mars Hill was just in a season of saying like, we need to return to what it is we believe our first love

is. Cause we don't know that anymore. We've sort of creatively deconstructed everything. And so, um, I think I sensed my role was to come back and not to bring people back into religion, but to say, okay, there's some really deep, beautiful work we can do on reclamation. Like what should we reclaim where there's power and grace and goodness and beauty and truth? And so for us, that was like – I mean there's one word. It was Jesus. Like Jesus needs to be the center stage, not a personality, not a brand. Like even Mars Hill needs to die to our brand

so that Jesus can be made much of. And that's what I came in to do. And that was really beautiful work and really hard at the same time. Well, yeah. Well, my question that you set me up is how was that received? I would imagine there was a diverse response to that.

Yeah, a mixed bag. I mean, there were people at Mars who were there because they felt safe nowhere else and had trauma around the word Jesus because of whatever their past baggage they brought in. And then we had people that were like, oh my goodness, we're so excited because we are committed to the gospel and want to see this be a gospel movement. And it was everything in between. So it was a spectrum. we are committed to the gospel and want to see this be a gospel movement. And it was everything in between. So it was a spectrum.

I would say that I had a lot of people that were not on board with communion or what we call the Eucharist. And our elders were like, we want to make communion the center of what we do. And I'm like, great, because I'm an Anglican and that's awesome. And that's what I bring. So I'm not going to bait and switch you like I love that I love for not my preaching, or not some band or some whatever to be the center, but we always come to the table. And we welcome people to receive the body and blood of Jesus because it sets us free. And it nourishes us for this missional life we've been called to. So like I was surprised what a mixed bag that was. So some people loved it and were like, this is the sentence we've been trying to say but didn't have the words.

And others were like, this is the sentence that we hate and we can't even – we don't even have a capacity to imagine a life where communion means something to us. So I mean inevitably in every transition, you have people come and go. And so ours was not unique in that way. We had people come and go. Yeah. But yeah, coming in, it was a challenge, but the biggest thing was to say like, hey, let's be really clear about who we are and where we're going. And let me do that in ways that are most conversant with our values so that I'm not here to speak a new language of like, we kept the values, the mission, all that stuff was there. But let's put Jesus back on the center stage to where it's not even a question. And let's try to reclaim some things that maybe we lost

along the way. And that was difficult for some people. Help me understand why that would be difficult. Were there people that really, they wanted the creativity of this thoughtful gathering, but really didn't want Jesus at the center? I mean... I don't know. I mean, I'm really gracious on like my, I don't know people's motives and I hate a sign. I'm an Enneagram guy. So like telling people what their motives are is just not a good idea. Um, but I will say that, um, my associate pastor made this comment that he, he remembered those early days of being in meetings with leaders and just being honest. Hey, just so y'all know, we're going to be a church. And I think for Mars, it had become the idea for a lot of people that like, we don't know exactly what this is, but we know we don't want to be a church. And, you know, I had said to the

elders, like, and I'm saying that that was a minority of people. Nevertheless, that's usually the loudest group. And I bless those people. I love those people. And many of those people were really hurt by their church experience. And so I have tons of grace and I want to have a big ear toward their story. And at the same time, like God called me to be a pastor, not of like a thing or a conference or like some, you know, amorphous organization, but, but the church. Um, and so I was pretty clear coming in, like, we're going to be a church. And what does that mean? It means Jesus is our center. And what does that mean? It means we're going to practice his way and we're going to submit to the scripture. We don't get to write the story. We get to participate in the

story that's been handed to us that God's saying, join me and be creative. And so for some people, like when you say something, they hear another, I think what many people heard is, wow, back to the theological straitjacket. And now we're going to be religious again, the very thing we came out of and committed to for Mars Hill. And it was like, no, I think there's a third way. Like, I don't think the idea is like, you can just do whatever you want, or we can be like religious sort of straitjacket, sort of boring people. It's like, I think there's more options on the table for us, and we should explore those in the way of Jesus. Yeah, yeah. No, that's super helpful. It sounds like, I mean, there's probably a, well, you've basically said it, that the church had a lot of

people that were dealing with church hurt, perhaps even spiritual or religious trauma, or at least they might frame it that way. Would that be accurate, that maybe a higher percentage of that kind of de-churched, barely re-churching kind of Christians with a lot of kind of baggage of traditional Christianity, would that be a pretty higher, maybe a higher percentage at Mars Hill than maybe your average church? I think that's fair to say. It would be a higher percentage, and at the same time, that would still be a minority. Oh, okay. And yet it would be a higher percentage for sure. Well, even if it's a minority, it's a – I've got to pick a word here. I don't want to say loud minority. That sounds almost negative. Maybe a needy minority or just a minority of people that require some care

and pastoring and attention, maybe more than your average person that doesn't have any church hurt. They just show up, worship God, try to live their Christian life, you know? I don't know. Yeah. I mean, these are people who are willing to give the church another chance. And so I think they deserve precision and they deserve empathy. They deserve to be heard. And at the same time, I always want to call them to expand their imagination about what they think is possible or what they think

are the options on the table. So like pastorally, I think you have to do both. I think it's easy to sort of acquiesce and to say, well, we'll just sort of do whatever and be whatever you want us to be. Or you can overreact to that and be like, no, we're going to be this and this is how it is. So it's like, what is the

other way of listening deeply, but also leading well? And that's the challenge I think for most leaders today is it's really hard to lead in an age where individualism is sort of becoming supreme because it's hurting cats. And anytime you say anything about here's the direction we're going, it's like, well, what about this and this and this and this? So leaders have to be really, I think, amorphous or I should say agile in sense of like, we are going somewhere. But I think where we are going will be spacious enough to give everyone a place, right? So let's make it spacious and not so narrow. Yeah.

But let's also go somewhere. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. That's honestly – I think that's my favorite crowd is the kind of – Yeah. The D Church. I get a lot of – I mean, a lot of listeners are listening right now.

a lot of, um, I mean, a lot of listeners listening right now, you know, where I get a decent number of emails or messages that were kind of like, I was kind of on my way out, but you know, I heard your podcast. It's like, Oh, I can, I can tolerate this at least. Or I get a lot of, you know, progressive people that might say like, you're, you're the most conservative podcast I'm willing to listen to, you know, or some conservatives that say you're the most conservative podcast I'm willing to listen to, you know, or some conservatives that say you're the most liberal podcast I'm willing to listen to. But I just I love that kind of deconstructed, searching, honest person. They kind of see through some of the BS with Western Christianity. They're not enamored with churchiness, but they still read the gospels and they're like, I just can't,

I can't get away from Jesus. Like I look at Jesus and this story makes the best sense of the options. And Jesus seems like he's paving the way. Like this is a good, this is, I want to live a life like Jesus. Now I'm frustrated. They might say,

and I might say good, this is, I want to live a life like Jesus. Now, I'm frustrated, they might say, and I might say, with, you know, you look around at kind of the typical Christian Western church, whatever. I just not, I'm seeing a disconnect between what I read in the Gospels and what I'm seeing in church. And sometimes people have, you know, legitimate spiritual, I don't like to use the word trauma too flippantly, but they've, they've had serious like hurt in church, you know? And other times people, I don't know, sometimes it can be, no matter where they go, they're always kind of a victim, you know, and, and trying to, I don't know, trying to navigate that kind of like legit, you know what I'm saying? Like that, that some people who have had some like in-depth traumatic experiences in the church, and other people that are just, I don't know, they're just fussy, for lack of better terms.

But what I'm saying is I love both. I actually love all of that for some weird reason. The last five years, I've taken like such an interest in like first century Judaism, second temple period, if you're familiar with that language, like what's the sort of climate Jesus himself would have been steeped in? And I'm always surprised how deeply religious Jesus was and was throughout his ministry. Like he was always going to synagogue, always going to festivals, participated in Torah study and memorization. I mean, you name it, Jesus was a card carrying religious Jew. And at the same time, he was willing to spar and deconstruct the Pharisees

understanding of second temple Judaism. So it's like he himself had this agile sense of like, I'm not against the institution. I'm against the interpretation in which you are trying to bring it to bear. And I think for me, that's been a good recipe as I've dealt with my own hurts in the church of saying, who could understand that any more than Jesus, who was handed over and betrayed and traumatized by his own best friend, his own best friends. I mean, his, his friends, his family literally left him and, um, to abuse, to death, ultimately to humiliation. Um, and so I'm always asking myself, like, if you're going to follow Jesus, AJ,

you can't follow him out of the church, because he loves the church. He died for the church. He died for the world, and the church is that community by which the world hears and sees, it should see as a signpost of remnants of the kingdom of God coming to bear on the earth. Yeah. What do you say to the person, this might be 5% of my audience now, maybe more, that just can't do church anymore. Like they just, like, I just can't do it. I just, I go in and I just, it drives me crazy. And I just, I sit there and I just, I can't do it anymore. So I'm going to try to live my life as a Christian outside of the context of an ecclesiological context. What advice would you give to that person?

Yeah. I mean, when you say even that phrase, I go in there. I think that's what you said. I mean, we're already treating the church as a noun and the body of Christ is at best a verb to be given away to the world. So I would say that without people in our lives, and it can be a house church, like the mode of it I think is up for creativity and investigation. It is a sense of saying you can't do this alone though. If you think that you are going to be bread for the world alone, you're going to be exhausted, bitter. We just need each other. So whether that is like a large liturgical church, a mega church, a house church, a midsize Presbyterian, like, I don't think any of that matters. What matters is to say, like, am I around a group of people that are orienting their life

toward the kingdom of God in this world? And how do I become accountable to that? Because we are really sophisticated in our ability to do what we want. And so we need people in our lives to say, hey, listen, I know you think that's going to be life, AJ. That's going to actually be death. And let me show you why. And let's walk together this path of following Jesus, because here is where in Luke 24, that just does not square with what Jesus is leading us into. So I think the conversation I want to have isn't like I'm leaving a noun, but am I involved with the verb of the church? Are there people around me that are tethered to abiding in Christ, as we learned from John 15, that I'm actually intentionally regularly walking with, that can

call me on my stuff, and that together we can serve the world and be bred for a hungry, starving society for truth and grace. That's so good, man. It's hard when people desire that but have a hard time finding it, because true community can't be created by one person. You have to have other people that have the same similar vision of wanting to get involved in your life that are digging in, that are holding you accountable and want to be held accountable. And I've gone through seasons where I'm like, man, I want everything you're saying. I want that. God, give me that. I'll open up my home. I'll whatever. And it's just sometimes it's hard to find. Yeah. Let me say something about that real quick. My, I have the

same struggle, you know, even all these years later. And I think the older I get, the harder it is to make like really deep spiritual friends that have like the time, the capacity, and also like a similar view of, of what it means to be a faithful presence. Um, Ed Gungor, my, my mentor, he's a Bishop, uh, in the Episcopalopal Church, and he once said something to me that just blew my mind. He said, AJ, friendship is the stuff of destiny. Yeah. And I'm like, wait, what? Because when you're young, friendships come easy.

You meet people, you play ball, whatever, you do crafts, whatever it is. Like your hobbies, it comes easy. The older you get, I find friendships are getting harder for me. Yeah. And to back up and to say if I'm struggling to find friendships, I need to realize like, this isn't like, um, this is sacred ground. Like to find deep spiritual friendships is really hard. And, um, I should pray about it and to see like what God might, who God might drop in my lap. But I will tell you as Henri Nouwen says, community is that place where the

people you least want to be with are always there. And often I think the people God has for me to be my brothers and sisters in Christ walking this world aren't people I would have chosen in the first place. And that's why I'm always like, hey, if you're struggling to find that, go back to church, try to join in, like give it another shot. If not, pray about your neighborhood or who's currently in your life you're not intentional with, but it often doesn't look what you, but it's often not a bunch of really attractive people sitting around a restoration hardware table, sharing the best appetizers and wine that you can. It's often different than what we think. It's not the J crew commercial. Oh, but I want the J.Crew commercial.

No, that's good. Because those people remind us of what we like. They reinforce our preferences in the world, and they make us feel spectacular. But that's not what Jesus did with his disciples. We're talking about the JV that did not make the cut. We are talking about teenagers. John was probably 11, you know? And he chose people that were left out. And he put himself around a table of couldn't be more politically

diverse if he tried. Let's go there. I was going to ask this in a second, but since you tossed me that one. So Mars Hill was very diverse theologically and politically. Is that correct? Mars Hill was very diverse theologically and politically. Is that correct? Like one of the more theologically, politically diverse churches that I've, and I've only known it through you and I've hung out with some of your elders and stuff, but you guys are telling me, even your elder board, you know, some were much more progressive, some very conservative. And then they say, yeah, we represent the congregation.

We've got Trump voters. We have Trump haters. We have everything in between. We have very progressive people, very conservative people. First, is that an accurate description? And secondly, what was that like, pastoring that? Yeah. I mean, we had someone on Trump's cabinet that was a part of our church and would come back regularly for worship. I know who that is. all the way to, all the way to, you know, the president of, you know, the school board or whatever, you're the super, you know.

So that was always like to see those two people in the same room, a couple rows apart with hands lifted up worshiping Jesus was like, that's the church. Yeah. But how did you, you know, and how did you pass like, yeah, because I know other churches where they have this on a much lower scale and they're like, I don't know. I don't know how to do this. This is a disaster. I can't help them to see each other as fellow believers, fellow Christians, and fellow humans sometimes. Yeah, so can you repeat your question?

Yeah, yeah. How did you pastor such wide diversity in a way that would foster unity? Did they naturally have a, hey, I know this person's on a different side of everything, but I love them anyway? Or did you have to correct, address this, some kind of animosity that existed in the congregation? Well, I don't know if I did anything. I would say that, but, you know, my default is to give them an overabundance of credit. So I would imagine that that sort of soil was already fertile. I will say that I was very intentional of making sure we knew the center because once you define the center, you can sort of desacralize a lot of other things. And what I mean by that is we said, okay,

if the center is the Apostles' Creed for us, which our elders have affirmed that, and we taught that, what that means is we can make space for all sorts of differences and call each other brothers and sisters in Christ. So we decided to take that line of reasoning rather than just like preaching the headlines of CNN or Fox News. We said, OK, what if we define the center as historically what the church has defined the center in the Roman Empire? So let's do that with the Apostles' Creed and let's make space for difference because that's part of our formation. Like you actually need people that think differently about politics in order to help you see a broader viewpoint of what people are experiencing on a day-to-day basis. And that's only good for you to hear that. And it doesn't mean you have to even agree, but it means that we need to be in the same room where we can humanize one another. So like I use two Ps to do that. So like, for example, um, your positions on every,

we all have positions on almost anything. So take any issue, like, yeah, great. Have a position on it. But what's even more important, if not more important is having the right posture, not the right position. So like how you hold your positions, how, the how you hold your positions is as important as the positions you hold. How you hold your positions is as important as the positions you hold. So imagine like holding a bird in front of you, like to keep that bird from flying away, you have to hold it with some conviction. But if you squeeze it, you'll kill the life out of it.

And so I tell people like have, have positions and hold them. Have conviction. That's cool. But when you squeeze the life out of someone across the table who differs from you and has had a different life experience than you, and yet you share a love for Jesus, him as Messiah, like, that is not the church. Like when you look at Simon the Zealot sitting across from Matthew the tax collector, I don't think we can appreciate historically just how different their political views were. One is in bed with Rome. The other wants to kill – literally wants to slit the throat of Caesar. So to have those two around the table, I think Jesus is being very creative and is showing us an example that if our tables don't have some sense of diversity, maybe we're not doing the right thing. So we just preach that a lot of what a gift we are to each other when people get to reveal part of their story that's nothing like

what you know or have come from. So seeing that as part of your spiritual formation, that part of you being formed is learning to expand your understanding and your grace toward others. Oh, and by the way, if you want to change someone's viewpoint, if you hold that kind of desire that I want to change the way they think about something, the best way to do that isn't to shout them down and to hold your position. It's to have a kind of posture that helps them to see maybe someone can have a different viewpoint than me and not be a jerk. Maybe they can love me well, and I'm open to your thoughts now too. It's a really great way to help people see your point. That's great. How did COVID affect all this? Because most pastors I talk to

say, whatever political or even theological tensions existed in my church were magnified times a thousand during 2020, to the point to where they're like, this is the most challenging discipleship season I've ever been in. And it wasn't primarily because we weren't gathering or there's this pandemic. It was the hyper-polarization of everything. And it's still like this today, right? Has just made it almost impossible to pastor people through that. Did you experience a magnification of the polarization through COVID and how did you handle that? On both sides. You know, one of the things I tell people is that never before have the far left and far

right been more different on their positions, but been more alike in their posture. So like I love offending conservatives when I'm like, hey, you know who you remind me of? You remind me of like that, that far left progressive camp. And I'll tell progressives like, you remind me so much of staunch Republicans. And they'll be like, what? And it's like, yeah, I mean, even the way you cringed when I said that, that's exactly how they are toward you. And that matters. Like we should care about that within the church.

So I think like what we desire to do and what I desire to do here in Charleston is to give people like options and freedom to choose a few different pathways. But to make sure that in your freedom of choice, like I'm studying First Peter right now and teaching that at St. Peter's. Make sure that in your freedom of choice, like I'm studying first Peter right now and teaching that at St. Peter's. And Peter says like, hey, live in freedom, but don't use your freedom to exploit it. Like to the neglect of others that like, how do we how do we lay down rights in such a way that makes space for someone else's freedom? Because that's what true freedom is. That's good. It's to say I am free to actually choose your good. And sometimes that's

going to impinge on what I prefer to do. But that is the way of Jesus. And that's what's so hard is like, we're called to a cruciform life to follow him. And we just prefer to cling to our rights and do what we want. And so when you can soak in that sort of formation, it gives people options to say, yeah, I can either choose to serve others or I can choose to serve myself. Either way, I'm not going to be shamed. We can be loved. But I think people need options of like, hey, there's a few paths we can take here. Let's choose wisely, but let's follow the spirit and let's not be heavy handed on policy. But let's give you a few options of pathways.

So like we did that with masks, like we just gave a few options, but at the end of the day, it was like, what does it mean to follow Jesus with what you decide? And you need to be sure that you're going to be held accountable to that. Not from me, but from the Lord. So, but that's never done easily and perfectly. There's always going to be problems. Yeah, totally.

The mask thing, who would have thought something like a i know two ounce mask or i don't know big you know would be such a symbol of division and identity it's it's just on both sides both sides of the you know anti-mask promo whatever i don't't know. It's, it's, it's psychologically fascinating sociologically. Like as a, if I was a sociologist from Mars and I came here, I would have been just in a, just in a heyday, like examining the psychology of masks and like understanding it's just, it was, yeah. Um, I'm in Idaho. So COVID ended about a year ago. Um, So it's been fun looking at the rest of the world and what's been going on. But I travel a lot. So it's even that alone, like the state, the state and however blue or however red the state is and what news channel they're listening to. It's just, it's fascinating. The

whole thing's fascinating. But I want to hear about your transition. I mean, you've gone from a large church to a much smaller church, a non-denominational to an Anglican church. But you said you were already Anglican in spirit, basically, for a while now. So this is kind of a coming home to you. Is that a good way to describe it? Yeah, that's perfect. Yeah. Did you cut out? Are you there?

I'm not. That's perfect. Period. Well done. My understanding of the Anglican Church is it kind of captures this kind of eclectic, ecclesiological periscuity that you describe yourself as. Would that be accurate? That Anglican, as a denomination, it fosters this kind of healthy diversity that already resonates with how you approach the faith? I think in our best moments, maybe. As in any family, there's some skeletons, right? So we're in a little tributary called the C4SO. My bishop, Todd Hunter, who used to run Alpha USA, he also used to lead the Vineyard Movement, a Wimber disciple. I mean, it's hilarious that he's an Anglican bishop because he just comes from all over the map and yet found this home, he wrote a book called Accidental Anglican. And I think that would be, the C4SO, which stands for Churches for the Sake of Others, it sort of describes a lot of us

as you just termed. So we're like egalitarian, which means we believe women in leadership. That's not obvious or agreed upon in the Anglican church as a whole. We are charismatic. That's not obvious and agreed upon either necessarily in the Anglican church as a whole. We are charismatic. That's not obvious and agreed upon either necessarily in the Anglican church as a whole. We are sacramental, which is definitely agreed upon. And we're scriptural, which is definitely agreed upon. So like there are even like, we have to practice denominationally what I just talked about. We have to practice locally, like posture and position, like let's center in Jesus and have some core convictions around what it means to be Anglican. But let's also like demystify and desacralize some other preferences that we have that I'm not sure like in the full kingdom of God are going to be that

important. Maybe we should reconsider like how tightly we hold some of these things. So there's some diversity. We've got a long way to go. Like every organization, we've got a long way to go. But I hope we can stay together. We'll see. Tell me about the differences between going from Grand Rapids, Michigan to Charleston, South Carolina, going from North to South. Because that's got to bring... I mean, whenever I talk to my friends in the South or even I visit the South, it's just, it's a different kind of Christianity because it's a different kind of culture, really. And I'm more and more, I'm appreciating the cultural influence of Southern Christianity versus kind of everywhere else. Have you

experienced that? Would that be accurate? Or is it maybe the Anglican church might be immune to some of that? I think that we've got a lot of work still to do on racial reconciliation um i mean the soil here cries out with the blood of slaves so i'm aware of that everywhere i walk i mean even we have we're sort of 10 minutes outside of downtown in a place called mount pleasant and we're on 13 acres about two miles miles as the crow flies to the beach. And it's just like beautiful land. And I'm deeply aware when I walk and pray on this land of the cries of the suffering who for hundreds of years were enslaved here. And that has to do something to a location.

That has to do something to a location. That has to do something to the atmosphere. And so I think that's something we're dealing with, not just as a good idea, but it's actually in the soil that's here that we've got to make steps toward reconciliation and owning the brokenness and the suffering. And at the same time, I would say that what's happening right now is that the lines are being reached on in the South because so many people are moving here. When you look at Charleston, we'll say, like Austin and some other places, it's just people are relocating here in droves. And so like my neighborhood is full of people from Connecticut and Jersey and Ohio. There's actually a website here called Go Home to Ohio or GoBackToOhio.com because people from the South are so sick of Ohioans moving here. And I'm a Michigan Wolverine, so I don't have a lot of love for the Buckeyes, so don't get me wrong here. But I will say that we can live on that level of state,

and we can live there and have an adversarial opinion about people that come from a different region. Or we can say, Jesus has actually called us to make disciples of all nations. actually called us to make disciples of all nations. Like what if we saw the newcomer to our block as like Jesus bringing people to us that, that we can love and we can serve and we can say like, how do we make space for you and your culture? Come be a part of us here. And I'm a Southern boy. I was raised in the South. So I'm not like some transplant from the Midwest that, that didn't, wasn't raised in the South. So it was amazing to see the eyes of our people just open up of conviction of like, oh my word, yes. What if Ohio is a gift? Could we imagine?

Right. And the Midwest, Grand Rapids is sort of, for a long time, it's sort of a Dutch outpost of reformed Christianity. And that's a gross generalization because there's so much diversity within that. But, um, you get a lot of people that at the same, same time, like sort of protect, like there's a way we do things here. And, um, there's a phrase there that's, if you're not Dutch, you're not much. And, um, that's sort of tongue in cheek, but, but when you're not Dutch and you move there, you kind of feel that you kind of do feel that you're held at arm's length. So to be the church in any context, I think what it's going to require of us, no matter where you are and where you're listening, a, um, a, a hospitality that will expand and stretch us to our greatest capacities.

And that's why we need, um, the community. That's why we need each other because we can't do it on our own. Yeah, that's good. I've grown in my appreciation of the unique cultural influence of specific geographical regions and the specific kind of vibe that each area region sometimes state kind of creates like the unique challenges that certain regions regions present um so i'm from southern california california has a lot of obviously california has a kind of a unique culture, but also a lot of just Californian pride. Like really, it was, it was, there's California and then there's everybody else. And I know people in Texas feel the same way, right?

There's Texas and everybody else. And, and I've sensed it from people living in kind of New York. It's like, if you can make a New Yorker kind of, I mean, I don't want to say it, but a little bit better than everybody else seems like, like there's just got a New York pride, a little bit of like, like if you talk to a New Yorker and like, Oh, where are you from? Oh, I'm from Idaho. They're like, Oh, and you can just sense that like judgmentalism, you know? But, and I say that because I felt that in California, like, I get it. What's that? It's a shame you couldn't hack it in the city. Yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, for sure. And I know because that's how I was in California. Like when I moved to Idaho, it took me like years to stop saying, you know, people like, oh, where are you from? Like, well, I'm living in Idaho, but I'm from California. You know, like I'm culturally aware. Like I'm up to speed. I'm creative. You know, I'm with it.

I'm not some backwoods Idahoan or whatever. There's just such interesting vibes. The Pacific Northwest has the same thing. There's kind of like, I don't know, there's this pride, which can be good in the sense of being kind of in a good way, like proud of your region, the geography, the culture, the food, the climate, the culture, the food, the climate, the people and everything. But it can easily and subtly turn into just this almost like mini ethnocentrism that you see from just Americans or other countries. I don't know.

It's something that I've been thinking about on an ecclesiological level and how church planners who move into a region, man, you got to really get to know your cultural challenges, you know? Well, I think there's a difference between like cultural pride and cultural elitism or cultural superiority. And it's the same with like, um, there's a very big difference between patriotism and nationalism and learning to discern those two takes work and hard questions. And, um, you know, it's ultimately about like loyalty. Is my loyalty to my tribe or is my loyalty to the least of these? Is my loyalty to something greater than just my comfort, like my preferences? And that's the things that stretch you is I can have pride in Charleston,

but if that takes away from making space for people coming in, receiving like radical hospitality, then I'm buying into the values of the empire and not the kingdom. Yeah. Can you expand on that a little bit on a broader level? Because I know you and I resonate a lot with this, just this, man, just how much of our American culture has seeped into our Christian posture as a church. Have you faced that as a challenging aspect of discipling people, separating their allegiances? Yeah, loyalty systems is what it comes down to. And I can tell it even last night around my own table in my house. I had some family in town, and you can tell it in people's facial expressions, that when you have a conversation about the kingdom of God, and when you have a conversation

about a political election, and I'm not saying it's not a Venn diagram and there's not some overlap there. But I am saying that when you can see it in the, sort of movements, someone's facial features that they're obviously more bought into the hope of who's elected versus the hope of who runs the universe. Um, I can tell the difference and it's easy to be like, Oh wow. Okay. I think your, your allegiance is probably to a flag versus the lamb. And I'm not saying that I'm sitting in judgment over you. I think that we need to be careful that our allegiances are just in the right spot. Like my daughter goes to a little tiny little Christian school. That's really sweet. We put her in the small school.

We could have moved here because we didn't know if public schools would even be going to school because of the sheer volume of people in a pandemic. And so we put her in this tiny school. And at the end of their year, they were doing their pledge of allegiance. And so we were at her little graduation. And she's eight years old. So she was graduating second grade. And she pledged allegiance to the American flag.

And then she pledged allegiance to the Bible. And then she pledged allegiance to the American flag. And then she pledged allegiance to the Bible. And then she pledged allegiance to the Christian flag. And I just said to my wife, when leaving, I said, what do you do when those things aren't in congruence? Like that's confusing for a little girl to know, wait, if is my allegiance, how do I split my allegiance here if there's differences? And, um, and I said, well, I will tell you, like she pledged allegiance first to the American flag. And that spoke volumes to me that the first thing that we're going to pledge in a Christian school is to the stars and stripes. And I'm a

patriot, don't get me wrong, but I'm not a nationalist by any means. And to say, I don't, we need to have a conversation with her about where we pledge our allegiance first and foremost. Um, and that's going to be really good for us to talk about and hash through and clarify around the table. Um, so it's hard. And that's, that's, yeah, that's tough. It's interesting that it was three different pledges. So it's almost like a Trinitarian. Yes. You know, humanitarian. Yes. You know? Um, so I, I've, yeah, my, my kids had a hard time with that. So I, I don't, I, I personally don't pledge the allegiance and I don't, I don't, I'm not judge you about it. I don't judge other people that do. Um, and even with my kids, they know I don't. And I made it really clear. I said, Hey, look, you have no judgment on my part. If you do okay. Do not do it because your dad does it.

Here's the reasons why I don't. Here's the reasons why maybe some other good Christians do, and you need to make your own decision. Well, my kids all said, no way. I'm not going to play. But they got more. I mean, it's fascinating how that is so offensive. I would say they were persecuted because of it,

but it's not easy for a kid to make that decision in school and to not do that. And I said, look, I stand. I'm respectful. I respect my country. I obey its laws in as much as I don't conflict with my whatever. But the whole idea of allegiance, I respect my country. I obey its laws in as much as I don't conflict with my whatever, but that the whole idea of allegiance, I just, I don't, to me, that is, that is a very religiously profound act. It's a liturgy, right? And I want to be careful with liturgy, habits of liturgy, liturgies that affect and symbolize my, my allegiance. I can obey Babylon, but my allegiance is to

the God of the exiles. I don't know. So maybe when I talk like that, I come off more convincing to my kids. They're like, well, you weren't really neutral in how you parented. I'm like, I really would not be bothered if you did. But yeah, but it's fascinating how that, you can understand how in the first century, how not giving your allegiance to Caesar was invited persecution, you know, and you see this in some of the late first century stuff, you know, that it really was a clash of religions, you know, the religion surrounding Caesar and a religion surrounding Jesus. Um, man. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's an emperor. Worship is dominant in this time. And I think,

I think it's some deep work needs to happen in our society of what is, what is, what does America worship look like? Yeah. Because we're obviously not doing incense and bowing to America. But can we discern new ways of where our worship and our hope has everything to do with the direction of the state versus the inbreaking of God's kingdom? I think that's good work that Christians should do. And that need not necessarily lead you to despise America.

It actually leads you more deeply into having a love for this place than a love for its people. So to tease out those nuances that we don't need to hyper-react one direction or another thinking that it's a zero-sum game. some game, but there is some parsing that needs to happen and clarification that we need to have of like, where does our allegiance ultimately lie? With whom? With whom do we truly worship? Like when Peter says to honor the emperor, my take is that Peter's in Mamertine prison under Nero, and he's writing to Christians in modern Turkey. And he's saying, wait, honor Nero, the guy whose foot, boot is in your neck to honor him. And what people don't know about the context is that was a step back because the real commitment was to worship Nero, to worship the emperor. They were deified. So when Peter says, honor the emperor, he's not saying that we need to stamp the emperor's

behavior as okay. What he's saying is that the time is short. Live faithfully and give honor where it's due. But ultimately, our allegiance is not to Babylon. It's to the kingdom of God. It's almost like it would almost be within the framework of love your enemies. Honor Caesar not because he's some great public figure, like you said, that you should give your allegiance to, but it's like, because he's your enemy, but we are enemy loving people,

give honor to the leader. But it's definitely not trying to sanitize the emperor or even elevate his status. But yeah. Well, AJ, dude, thanks so much for being on Theology in the Raw. I wish we lived closer, man. We're on different sides of the country. And I just so, whenever we get together, which is very rare, I just so resonate with just your posture and everything and your approach to ministry. And we have a mutual friend. I won't say his name because he didn't give me permission, but he was at your church in New York. And I remember I brought up your name. I won't say his name because he didn't give me permission, but he was at your church in New York. And I remember I brought up your name. I think we didn't even know that we both knew you, but he said, I've never been pastored like I was when AJ was my pastor. And he just

almost not quite tears in his eyes, but just raved how you weren't not, not just that you're a good preacher, good public intellectual, whatever, but that you pastored him well. So, um, I just so appreciate that about you, bro. Pretty rare these days. Cool. It's good to see you, man, as always. And thanks for inviting me on. Yeah. Oh, uh, real quick, where can people find your, uh, your books, your, uh, ministry and everything? Do you have a website or, uh, yeah, just go to ajsherrill.com. That's A-J-S-H-E-R-R-I-L-L.com. And, uh, I'm sorry. I know it's, I think it's dot me. Um, dot me. I think it's someone has, I think someone has that. I don't know. Calm me, try them all, whatever. Um, but, uh, a simple search on Amazon is also really easy to find books. Cool. Awesome. Thanks for coming on the show,

bro. Yeah. Grace and peace to you, brother. Thank you.