Theology in the Raw - S8 Ep888: Race, Racism, and Why Christians Need Critical Race Theory: Propaganda

Episode Date: July 29, 2021

Oh nelly, are you all in for a challenge! Propaganda (aka Jason Petty) is a musician, poet, activist, intellect, and an author who’s recently published his first book Terraform: Building a Better World. In this episode we talk about Prop’s new book and we talk about coffee. But the bulk of our time is spent talking about the race conversation and Prop’s got some passionate thoughts about the topic.  Strap on your seat belts, folks! You’re going for a ride... Check out Prop’s new book: Terraform: Building a Better World Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.comVenmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I have back on the show the one and only Propaganda. Propaganda is a speaker, activist, musician, poet, an intellect, father, a husband, and he kind of does it all. And in this conversation, he pretty much does it all. I really wanted to have him on the show to talk about his new book, Terraform. Subtitle is Building a Better World, which he does talk about kind of throughout the conversation. But man, within a few minutes, we got into politics, we got into race, and we kind of just stayed there for the rest of the lengthy conversation that we had. And so you are going to be challenged. You are going to be provoked. And yeah, I'm excited for you to engage this conversation.

Some of you are not going to like a lot of what he says. I think a lot of you are going to love a lot of what he says. And whether you like it, don't like it, whatever, we are all required as Christians to humbly engage, to humbly listen to very important voices like propaganda. And he's talking about something very serious. And he brings up some incredibly thoughtful and challenging points. I could have kept talking to him for hours. This guy is the real deal. So please welcome back to the show, the one and only Propaganda. Welcome back to Theology in the Raw.

What up, what up, what up, what up? Theology without the salmonella. It's not that raw. I forget. Do you prefer jason or prop or propaganda or does it matter uh it don't really matter it usually ends up becoming prop yeah but uh yeah no i don't know okay i don't split hairs all right i mean i i like prop but um i didn't know your name was Jason until probably a couple of years after I got to know who you are. Yeah, it's most people's story. They're like, oh, yeah, your name's Jason.

I forgot you'd have a name your parents gave you. And I'm like, yeah. Well, I don't know if you remember this. This was in California several years ago. And it was at an Axiom event. You're introducing yourself. And you said, yeah, I'm propaganda or, you'm propaganda or Jason because I want to have a mortgage. Yeah. That's where the mortgage comes in with Jason on it. Yeah.

Yeah. Real quick, tell a quick background of who you are for those who might not know. And then I want to jump into your new book, Terraform. So just saw the trailer. And first of all, the trailer is extremely well done, but just the content, the glimpse of the content you're giving us is super intriguing. Yeah. Yeah, so my name's Propaganda, Los Angeles, native, husband, father, girl, dad. I do a hybrid of just poetry and music and hip hop. Um,

got a couple of podcasts and I just released a book called terraform. What in the world, what in the world does terraform mean? Yeah. Uh, so it's a science fiction word. Um, the, uh, kind of the process of, um, um the uh kind of the process of um when you find a distant planet in the process of making that planet livable is called terraforming um and uh you know i mean we're kind of doing it in mars like today you know whitey on the moon besos uh you know shot it shot out into space you know i'm saying because like you know and you know there's a plan to put a put a a permanent you know little module on the moon right now you know or by 2024 so it's like it's terraforming we're gonna you know in hopes to get to mars to make mars livable you know so that's called terraforming um so i just thought to myself like you know i'm

looking around earth and it's becoming less and less livable you know whether it's um socio-culturally or geopolitically or or um even just actual earth itself the terrain itself is becoming less and less so what if we thought of earth is our own terraforming project but not just earth but our culture our society and then ultimately ourselves like our inner worlds you know what i mean um so that's kind of the creative jump off for for for the poetry and prose yeah are you are you into science fiction i'm into science uh okay like deeply, so I dabble into the science fiction, but I would offend anybody who's really into science fiction to say that. But I'm a nibbler. I nibble at everything. Enough to come across a word like terraform.

Enough to find a word like terraform and go that's cool i mean that's that's a brilliant book title because you want titles to be creative unique and yet not so far out that people don't have a clue what it's even getting at and i feel like terraform is definitely unique most people won't know the word but you can kind of get it you know terra yeah has something to do with earth so So something along that line. So it's, it's, I think it strikes that perfect balance of like creativity, but not being so different that people don't even know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's something I, I like, I work at to not be so far in the clouds. They're like so dense that, you know, and that's's always like whether it's music or even the editor

and my manager was like hey when you're writing this like i don't want to finally understand what you're talking about like five years from now like can you like like keep keep distilling keep working at it till we get to a place to where it's like okay now i know what you're saying yeah that was kind of like the the that was the heavy lifting for this book. Okay. Real quick, I made this in your honor. Okay. That little cold brew?

It's a double shot of espresso with a little shot of cream. Is that called something? What is this? It's just a double espresso. It looks like a latte. I pulled the shot. I got this new espresso machine. I pulled a pretty good shot. It had a really good Well, I got it – like I pulled the shot. I got this new espresso machine. I pulled a pretty good shot.

It had a really good kind of cream on it. But you're a coffee – like way into coffee, right? Yeah, you made a latte. Like it's great. Well, but it's just got a shot of cream and like it's really – it tastes a lot bitter than – or stronger than maybe it looks. But it's all right. I'm getting lit up right now with the caffeine intake. I love it.

I love it, man. Yeah, you got to watch with those espressos because they don't seem like you're drinking a lot. Oh, man. That's like, nah, homie, it's dense. Do you roast your own beans? What's your coffee involvement? I mean, I know you're kind of a sewer.

I'm the Anthony Bourdain of coffee. You know what I'm saying? I'm the Oprah. You know? No. I've roasted here and there uh that's something that like if i am going to get into roasting i want to do like a traditional like ethiopian method uh where you just like roast it over like hot coals rather than like the the big machine um so that's that to me is like is a little more like kind of like what i'm like

i would love to try to get good at um but yeah i'm pointing behind me i don't know if you can see it but like that's the uh that's the setup so they got the grinder you know the various beans it's like there's 10 different ways there's 10 different ways to make coffee behind me what do you primarily do the pour over do you do yeah primarily like i'll get up and make a pour over. My wife has been really on the espresso kick because she makes herself lattes in the morning. So I have a little manual. It's called a Rock manual espresso.

So I have that in the house. So it's like a manual one that she likes to use. Okay. It's dope. Yeah. Is it like an AeroPress? I like an Aopress i like an aeropress yeah so that's you can make you could pull an espresso shot with an aeropress but uh no the rock is like it's a legit espresso with you know it's got the the pour filter and the oh you know but you just rather than like it being mechanized you use your hands to like

pull these arms down and like it's fun yeah wow i could keep talking coffee but i want to come back to terraform give us give us the kind of maybe the overview kind of where you're going in the book what are some things you talk about and then maybe we can drill down into some specifics yeah so it's about like imagining, like building a livable world. It's about the idea of like, well, let's terraform our own spaces. There's this feminist author, you know, from the 60s, I think her name is, I always have to write it down because I forget it all the time. But her name is Carol Hanisch. said to me once when I was in the process of writing the book, it's a phrase, the personal is political, you know, and that, you know, the culture can only be as healed as we are. So like, as I'm kind of processing, imagining like the society we could live in, it's like, you can't do that without imagining yourself better and working on your own self so i try to like move you know through the book to go from like these big sweeping g giant earthly ideas

all the way down to like your own inner peace and understanding like your own home and your own self so um it's so it's broken so the, books broken up in like four acts or four movements, and they're called the sky, the soil, the people, and the possibility. Um, so, and we kind of, and those are actually all the, so there's, there's music EPs to go with each of those sections too. Um, so the sky is just this idea of like, okay, what's already here. What do we already have? Like everything that we need is already actually here.

Just you just got to kind of slow down and look, look for it. You know, so like, you know, and in the idea of like, how are we forming our identities? How do we understand ourselves? How do we understand ourselves related to each other? It's like it's actually all there if we just kind of slow down and see it. You know what I'm saying? And then the soil has to do with just that. Like the idea that like, look, you know, I know it sounds woo woo, you know, to Western Christians, but like you, you're made of earth. You know what I'm saying? Like, and so is everybody you love, you know what I'm saying? And, and so is the building you're sitting in. And so is the mic you're speaking on. It's made of earth, you know? And, and, and, and it's, and I'm, I'm of the belief that that was like the first epistle, God's first revealing of himself was creation, you know? Like, so I'm like, this is, it's, it's, he's revealed himself through creation, you know what I'm saying? So like, it's sacred. It was here before us, you know what I'm saying? It'll be here after us, you know? And

so you treat the soil like it's sacred. It's a part of who you are, and it's every person you're looking at, it's sacred. And then the people has to do with like, well, if you understand that the soil is sacred and we're made of the soil, then the person you're looking at is sacred, you know? So then how we relate to each other, we should relate to each other as if they're sacred. You know what I'm saying? And then you start building a culture around that rather than around stories we've been telling ourselves as far as like one, you know, us sitting in the shadow of like the Chuck Colson's of the world and just like the, the culture war guys that like, um, you know,

it's just, it's just verifiably false. Like I just told her us to say like, I can't be at war with culture. I am culture. We make it. It's not a monster separate from us. We are it. You know what I'm saying? So if it's messed up, it's because we're messed up. You can't parachute out. We are it. You know what I'm saying? just what it sounds like it's like okay well if all of our systems democrat republican conservative liberal libertarian anarchist monarchist socialist whatever we made them up yeah you know like they're they're all made up you know there's the borders there's no i always say there's no force field at the 47th parallel that separates canada from america it's not it's not real yeah if we made it up you know so if we made it up and a lot of these things that we made up are so damaging to us then let's make up something else i don't understand why it's like this dude let's

think of something else i don't know what that other thing is yeah but i know that wherever we are we made it up yeah so that means we can make up something else. Let's make up something better. You know, so that's kind of the that's that's kind of how I was trying to move through the book. Do you deal with politics a lot or is that kind of the lingering thing beneath? Like, or is it more of an explicit thing you're talking about? And how do you how do you approach that? I mean, I don't like I come. Yes.

Yes. And no. Yes. In the sense that, like, there are moments that i kind of drill down and go dude because there's a there's a chapter called institutionalized neighborliness um which is a phrase i got from my homegrown niche why seth and she's like hey you know the most effective way or the most wide-reaching way to love your neighbor would be voting is to put it in an institution you don't say it is like that way you want to love your neighbor dude help make laws that elevate

them you know so I'm like dang you know I'm saying so there in that sense there's like a lot of like direct stuff but I think that like as a you know as, as a as a person of color, you know, coming from like a marginalized group like you, I can't you can't not talk about politics like that's just it's a part of your existence. You know what I'm saying? And and it's not like that's not true of everyone else. It's just more obvious to us. You know, I'm saying it's true. It's true for everyone. It's just we know it. You know, I'm saying so. So so I think so. So, yes, in the sense that like. You're kind of always talking politics, you know, I'm saying, but no, in the sense that like I'm not trying to land at a different at a particular body politic or okay or or or partisan position you know I'm saying I think

a lot of times when people say politics they mean partisanship right right right and I and I'm not talking partisanship okay you know I mean yeah hey real quick can you center your head I just noticed that I have a more narrow and I'm only getting half your face. My bad. No, no. I should have said so. I just noticed it now. I'm like, shoot, a little bit more to your right. There you go.

Perfect. Okay, there we go. My bad. Yeah. No, that's – so I have to confess that I've had kind of more, I guess, Mennonite leanings when it comes to Christians and, yeah, I love your distinction, partisanship and politics. I mean, the gospel is profoundly political. When you say Jesus is Lord, that's a political statement, but it's not

partisan. Even if somebody might resonate with more values on one side or the other, your tribal allegiance is to neither tribe has always been my posture. And so I've had a more non-political in that sense kind of posture. But then the pushback I've gotten, which I think is very valid, is that, well, as a white person living in America, you do have the advantage and privilege

to have that posture. There's other people that don't have that advantage and privilege to have that posture there's other people that don't have that advantage i thought i'm still thinking through i think it was eugene cho who actually brought that up he wasn't the first one but he was one that maybe it was in his book actually where he kind of said let's be careful white mennonite people you know to to not to hey wait wait wait yeah yeah um is that is that is would you say the same thing and maybe help unpack that and help me understand where you're coming from with that? Yeah, I think that's what I was getting at. There's a in the chapter on the institutionalized neighborliness. Like I say, like, to be honest with you, if it wasn't for racism, I'd be a libertarian, you know, because I'm like, just leave me alone, dude.

Like, I'll figure it out. I want, I want my kids to succeed. I want to succeed. And I want my neighbors to be fine. If my neighbors are hungry, I'm going to feed them. You don't have to tell me that, you know what I'm saying? Like my neighbors, it's, it's fine. You know what I'm saying? Not everybody has that. Not everybody has that, you know? And, and it would be like, it's like, when I think of any of them, not only my rights, Like, it's like when I think of any of not only my rights, our daughter's rights, you know, anybody's like it's it was. It was the it was us fighting to be included into the Constitution and then needing the laws to enforce my rights. You know what I'm saying? And that was a heavy, heavy lifting.

Like, you know, I was, for my pod, I was doing some research on just the history of filibustering. And they've kind of throughout history have all been around the rights for black people. Like every filibuster was like, the government don't want, these people don't want us to have rights you know i'm sad so like i'm like it's it's taken government intervention for me to be

able to go to a desegregated school for me to be able to buy a house here you know i'm saying so i'm like man if i yeah if you would just stop being racist you know this would be fine you know i mean so it's like so i think in that sense that's what i am saying it's like um yeah it's just not that simple like i have not been able to just move freely except for the laws being changed to make sure that i can you know i'm saying so so i guess so yeah that that is what i'm saying you know it's like yeah i mean it's you know it's like hey you know uh hey a good investment is is you know home ownership so make sure you know if it's as soon as you can you know try to get yourself a house and you want to pass it on your kids save save that equity it's like well okay well you know well we couldn't until the 60s you know you know i'm saying it's

like i no one would thanks for those discrimination laws against loaning to black families so i'm like i'd love to i'd love to have you know to be able to hold on to our house you know i'm saying it's like i we didn't get in the game until one generation ago, you know? So like things like that, you know, are like those practical sort of, um, things. Yeah. So on that question, I'm curious. So like, um, do that, that kind of like racism within like giving home loans and stuff, is that still, I mean, I hate to ask, is it still happening? like giving home loans and stuff is that still i mean i hate to ask is it still happening how much is it still happening in your experience and or what's the lasting effects of it let's just say it hasn't happened since 1968 there's still lasting effects on that could you expand on

maybe some of those lasting effects too the lasting effects is like the idea that just because you know you can't legislate out the hearts and minds of men you know i'm saying right and i can't so you know just because the law says hey you know you can't discriminate by race creed or religion or gender doesn't mean it doesn't happen right these are still private you know institutions so with this is what we call like implicit bias. So, you know, and if you if you're following any statistics, you know, I'm saying like, I don't I mean, throw a rock at any of them, you know, I'm saying like, that bias that sort of assumes I remember, like, even in my own, my own personal experience experience when, you know, earlier on in my career, you know, when I opened the the business checking account, you know, I got then I was like, oh, my manager needs his own card, you know, access to the account so i needed to add him to the account so we walked into the bank and

as like my bank like the one i walk to every like i come here weekly you know what i mean and i walk in and i tell the teller like hey i need to add a name to our account to my account it's like okay cool he sits down turns right to my manager the white boy it was like hey what are we doing so what are we doing today and he's on his phone he's like what and he's like it's his account and i'm just like folding my arms like bro i see you every day i see you every week like what do you come on man so that so it's that implicit bias that like when we um with me and my wife like when we started, we first starting off before we were able to buy our house, looking for apartments, I couldn't be on the phone because they would just hear. All I do is black, you know, said we were denied applications, you know, I'm saying it did that, did it it a couple times where like I called and then my wife called back and then with the same information, same everything. And it's just, it's just so these

implicit things that start happening. But I think ultimately, let's just say, but for your, you know, let's say those are things I know that happen now, but let's just say for your example that, yeah, it's something immediately stopped in 1968. What that means is for 150, 200 years, white families have been able to accumulate generational, you know what I'm saying, wealth through my granddaddy's farm or, you know, my great grandfather had a corner store, you know what I'm saying? And this and this and you pass them down. So eventually, you know, you're dealing with being a part of a process with a 150 year head start, you know what I'm saying? So like, so economically speaking, financially speaking, it's like like we're still in the 1800s, you know what I'm saying, like in getting into developing wealth. Now, of course, these are like sweeping generalities.

Like it's not – you know what I'm saying? Like please give me that. I understand that. But like for the sake of example, for the sake of an example, like that seed money, that network of friends, of venture capitalists, you know what I'm saying? Of, of like, Oh man, my uncle's a lawyer. So when I'm starting a business, there's this. So if you, if we don't get into the game until then, then that means that I'm the uncle, you know what I'm saying? Like I'm the first, I'm the, I, I'm the OG and I'm like, well, I don't know what I'm doing. Like I just, you know what I'm saying? Like, I don't't i'm just learning too you know i'm saying so like

yeah so i don't have that deep well of you know dad and granddad and his brother and this you know i'm saying like there's no there's no inheritance in that sense you know i'm saying um we are it you know my my my dad you know my parents were like the first homeowners like in in our family you know i'm saying so like stuff like that so it's like we're only one generation in you know so uh yeah so i think that would be a good way to understand like lasting it is like so a lot of white people are white not white people but more conservative people whether whatever color they are they yeah i think they don't like yeah yeah, which you said, the sweeping generalizations, you know, because it's like, what about the poor white person who was born

into a poor white family that maybe they've never, like they may, they might be as an individual worse off than a black person who happened to be born into a more wealthy upper middle class black family. But would that be fair to acknowledge? But what you're saying is, yeah, that there are individual exceptions, but we're talking on the whole. Of course. Yeah. And this is why I think white people need to stop rejecting critical race theory.

Ooh, let's go there. Because you just articulated it. It's like it's intersectionality. It's what we're saying is that systems overlap and they're systematic yeah you understand i'm saying so there are areas that we should go rather than being like as a weapon it should be a connector you should be like oh i get it i see what you're saying because of this this and this and then i'm going yes fam, fam. Like, when I look at, like, the opioid epidemic, I'm like, hey, were you, when your Uncle Mike got hooked on meth and they sent him to jail. Yeah.

Did you think to yourself, well, he's an addict? Right. Like, what, you think jail gonna heal him? Like, how come y'all not looking for the person that sold it to him? Yeah. looking for the person that sold it to him and not only that did you ever ask yourself how bubba you know i'm saying from from bubba that work at the logging factory how he got his hands on a box of oxycontin oh man you ever ask yourself that you know i'm saying you know who gave it to him the establishment food like this this wealthy company is pumping drugs into your community yeah like and why aren't you asking yourself why they not prosecuting you i'm like why they

not prosecuting them i'm like fam same that's what we said you know i'm saying where you think where you think we got cocaine from you know i'm saying like where to Where do you think we got cocaine from? You know what I'm saying? Like, to make crack, where do you think we got it from? You know what I mean? Like, we got it from the same people. So I'm like, don't you understand? Like, it overlaps. So rather than being like, so, but that means, I'm like, no, fool, what I'm trying to say is we in this together, dog, you know? You know, there's there needs to be a reimagining. You know what I'm saying? And that's what I mean by like, let's think of something else, because what's working is like, don't you see this? Like it's killing us both. Yeah. And it got us fighting each other as if we not crushed by the same thing. You know what I mean? And I'm like, don't you get that? Like this white supremacy, this this system that I'm talking about is crushing us both. supremacy this this system that i'm talking about is crushing us both like you getting crushed by it you say well i'm white and i'm like and it's crushing you ain't it and i'm like don't that suck dog don't that suck i think it sucks too yeah you know they just did so first of all i don't mean to laugh because what you're talking about is very serious but you're kind of hilarious but also i just can't stop thinking about daveappelle, who I don't know if you saw. I probably shouldn't advertise necessarily. I'm not endorsing watching Dave Chappelle necessarily.

However, he hit the same point you did in his sticks and stones at the very end. And it was. Yeah, because he's like, are you? Yeah, you don't don't see what I see. Like, yeah. What is you talking about? You know, so yeah. So to me, it's like. Just say no. Just say no to the old boy. Just say no, guys.

You know what I'm saying? And I'm like, they putting you in jail for getting hooked on it? Yeah. Not the person that made it. You know, and you know, the Sackler family, they get to pay. They get to pay. It's a $2 billion fine. So they paying a fine, but they paying it off interest.

Interest from the company, not even out their own pocket. So what I'm trying to tell you is, what I'm trying to say is like, your drug cartel, dude, that's your cartel boss. Not even going to jail. You got aunties and uncles dead. You got family members spending their life in prison off this stuff that this person's selling and they're not gonna see it they're not gonna see one second behind a cell that don't bother you you over here telling me i need to stop talking about racism i'm like fam don't you get what i'm trying to say it's a system you feel me like like listen like we gotta we gotta think of something else guys you know but you're you're i mean you're you're you're i don't know this is you're recognizing some complexity in the conversation and even the

system because you're saying that the very system that has historically hurt black people obviously at a much higher percentage is also hurting white people who find themselves maybe in a lower socioeconomic or find themselves at the butt end of that system so that this can bring commonality to fight unjust systems that have racist manifestations but aren't reduced that's not the only piece to it yeah is that okay i think that's i think that's really helpful for white people because they always you know we i'll point to like what about this about that what about we have a black president we had this and it's like of course there's going to be exceptions and maybe of course yeah yeah individual successes of course it's

going to happen but obviously again throw a rock at any statistic you you know that and i'm thinking like okay like think about your argument in the sense that like okay racism can't be real because i'm white and i'm suffering i'm like okay follow that so you white and you suffering but everybody on the top is also white and they not helping you you know I'm saying so I'm like do you like like pay attention to what's happening here like this thing benefits from you staying down here but then telling you you better than everybody else around you like you know like don't you you don't see that mind game that's happening to you right now you

feel me so i'm like let's let's think this through like let's let's think about this differently i think there's something else going on that can be we can we can rethink this and And what it does is like what I think power does is it makes you, power makes you ignore the obvious, you know, and I'm like, okay, what about this do you not want to accept that it's so, the country's obviously racist. to accept that it's so the country's obviously racist like i just don't understand why you like why are you why are you fighting this like that's obvious you know so let's move past that and say okay and it's also this this this this and this and i'm like for me i'm going yeah i know that's why we keep saying we need an overhaul of the whole thing and that benefits us all and here are some suggestions you know i'm saying uh how can you unpack because i mean that's gonna not land well on some people uh that this country's racist how do you like that's a general statement obviously like what what does that mean 330 like white people the the system, the government, the people in power?

That's good. Again, again, why y'all need critical race theory is, is, uh, okay, how do I say this? If you bite a piece of cake, you don't taste flour and eggs, right? Taste the cake. But we know for a fact that flour and eggs are in it. Right. But that's not, but you, but it, you'd be silly to parse it out. Right. It's silly to parse it out. Now, if the cake tastes bad, right. Then at some point I need to go, something in these ingredients that are cooked in are a problem, right? So using that example, I think white America thinks racism is the problem of the individual. you if you teach the individual differently or you get rid of those that you guy like we would all agree well that fool's an idiot you

put you know i'm saying like if you get rid of them then it's fine right um which is partially true because again culture culture is made of humans. So when, when individuals have an issue or have a stain, you know, which we all do, we're going to build institutions that bake in those stains. Right. So when you, so when, when all of us who looked at the documents and said all men are created equal these truths we hold to be self-evident these men said this knowing full well they were only talking about white landowners over 25 they knew they were talking about that so they didn't even mean all men when they said all men or maybe they did they just didn't think that your ancestor was a man because he ain't on no land you know i'm saying because because he was from the northern

part of the same island like the irish weren't allowed to vote like that's the same island you know i'm saying so what i'm saying is like it's already it was in the infrastructure the same place that referred to the land that we standing on listen i'm sitting in los angeles right now right this is the historical lands of the tongva tribe i know that because i had to look for it this ain't even ours you know i'm saying like you throw a rock anywhere into just the building of our civilization right in the fact that we're still talking about attaining rights for these all men that was supposed to be included in 9-17, it's just, it is what it is. You know what I'm saying? I'm talking about America as an idea, as an institution. And of

course, in the same way that we look across the country and we say, well, China's communist. And I'm like, OK, well, which one of them is? Point at the Chinese dude that, you know what I'm saying, is Reagan called Reagan called Russia the evil, the evil empire. OK, which one of them? Which one of the 45 million of them is the evil? So you see how you get it somewhere else that you're like well i know i'm not talking about the people there i'm talking about the idea of russia you talk about the idea so why can't you see that in your own place i'm talking about the idea of our country was built on these ideas that somebody told you were beautiful but i'm living in the lived reality of like i was not included in that yeah that is by definition racist it is what it is but you don't say it so what i'm saying is like that's not

but that don't mean that don't mean i'm ready to leave that mean i'm ready to go hey guys i don't know if you know but you kind of you kind of baked some arsenic into this cake. There's arsenic in it. And apparently, you're immune. I know when I bite it, you feel me. This is what's happening. So I'm trying to tell you, it's like, look, dude, like half your country's sick from eating this same cake.

There's a problem with the cake, guys. You know? And I'm like, now that said, I look at things that Frederick Dougerick douglas said when frederick douglas gave his um his fourth of july speech where he was like is this my independence day he's like i read the constitution i read the declaration of independence this is a beautiful document this is amazing i'm just not included so he's like'all got to start including the rest of us into these words that you, as an institution. You feel me? Can I make a distinction real quick? Because it seems to me, maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that the very idea that's embedded in the constitution is actually not a racist idea. It's that the founding fathers didn't live up to that

as an understatement. But the idea itself that all people are created equal before God, the idea seems beautiful. Yeah. Okay. So it's the departure from the idea, not the original idea itself. It was just the hypocrisy of not living up to it. Yeah. So the push is like, yo, y'all, I mean, but y'all never meant it.

You know what I mean? It's like you wrote it down, but you clearly never meant it. Because, again, you're standing on land that's not yours. You know what I'm saying? So, like, you never meant it. You know what I mean? But, like, that don't mean you ain't strike gold with the statement. You know what I'm saying?

You're saying that we're standing in a room of 45 men who all own slaves. Talking about all men are created equal. Like, you don't mean it you know what i'm saying it's a great statement you clearly don't mean it you know i'm saying so so with this like with what uh like i said people like frederick douglas and other abolitionists and other people within the thing thomas jefferson even being like um who i rarely like um invoke but him being like hey dude we're gonna i'm obviously he didn't say hey dude but his uh him saying like if we if if the african ever gets his freedom we we're gonna have hell to pay like because like we we we we did them wrong you know i'm saying

there was even pushes to say like freed slaves to send them to Haiti, send them to Canada, because like we can't had him here because we kind of know we we did them wrong. And like, we know it, you know, I'm saying, yeah. So this is in our like these things are in our history. You know, I'm saying so, like, I'm just saying, like, you. They they knew what they were doing, you know, I'm saying, and they knew what they were doing. You know what I'm saying? And they knew that like it's not ignorance. This is like – this is willful. It's like I have a worldview that says the human species, the imago deus stratified. That's their worldview.

It's stratified. Things like phrenology and what's the brain mean in in uh um um what's the brain measuring thing i'm eugenics and stuff like that like it's yeah it's like it's this is their worldview it's like yeah we believe that you know we're image bearers we're just we bear more of the image of god than it's the worldview you know i'm saying so like you're gonna build based on your worldview and i'm pushing back and going going, are y'all serious? It happened. You know what I mean?

Yeah. So I want to try to summarize. And you're way more knowledgeable with this than I am. So I might even butcher my question. Okay. But I dabble. I dabble. And especially on this podcast, i love engaging the race conversation

and it doesn't matter who i have on i'm gonna get somebody that's upset so my last guest was a black conservative probably the first probably the first kind of thomas soul disciple i've had on and people didn't like that episode like when are you gonna have a you know a real black person on like well i actually i i i try to get a wide range of people anyway all that to say i i i i i enjoy engaging the conversation because i think it's so incredibly needed and it's become so divisive in the church and that's where my like to me the the god the the multi-ethnic vision that runs from Genesis 1 to Revelation 22 is such a strong thread throughout the scriptures. And it just drives me crazy when Christians can't see that this is a – Paul made this a gospel issue. John in Revelation made this is a gospel issue, this conversation.

And I think there are some complexities that as I listen to somebody that doesn't really, I mean, right now I'm still listening. I'll probably be listening for a long time before I really formulate any kind of constructive thinking about it, but we can all agree on certain gospel points. We can maybe have a dialogue about how best to move forward. And now I think that's where we get stuck. um so i want to try to maybe summarize some and i hate even framing it this way but maybe some talking points from the right i would love to hear your thoughts on it i i may resonate with the talking points i may not i may think they're yeah yes what do you what do you say and i've got thoughts on this okay what about people who say

yes everybody agrees that aside from the kKK today, you know, everybody would agree that there's this dark history in America. But we've gotten we've made so much progress to where we had a democratically elected black president. Like that's not just an individual accepted. That's like half the country said, I want to be led by this black man. Doesn't that say something about the state of the nation as a whole not just that one person or one individual exception um but this is like doesn't this show that we have made tremendous progress since then what do you what do you say about that yeah uh sure and i'm sure you've heard this i'm sorry if you're like i'm so tired of answering these questions, but it's like, it's, I mean, it,

again, it's like, I'm like, well, sure it does. And then there's also like, well, look what followed right after, you know, is like, uh, you know what I mean? It would be the, would be my next thing is like, well, and then right after that was the rise of the new alt-right and, nationalism and just this amazing explosion of hate crimes that we've seen, that we haven't seen in a long time. And I'm like, that's what I found has historically, again, following history, whatever gain, you know, when after the emancipation and then into reconstruction was the birth of the Black

Codes. Right. You know, and then you feel what i'm saying it's like it seems that seems to continually be you know so it's kind of like a jagged progress or it might be oh we're here but then we might go back a bit and then here it's not just a straight line of progress it's not it's not a straight line like culture's not that it's just culture's not that clean and simple and um yeah while i think it's important to celebrate wins i also think it's it's important to temperate our our celebrations with the reality because i'm going

okay so with that symbol the question would be how is that played out okay that happened vertically how is that played out horizontally i'm like have to have the you know rates of arrest and in poverty and in prison system has those numbers have those numbers followed the same trajectory you know I'm saying and if they have why if they have not why you know I'm saying so to me it's more like again like like I said power makes you ignore the obvious because i'm like well let's just not like let's it's just you don't have to make any draw any any value or conclusion you don't have to prescribe any value or conclusion to to it i'm just saying well well, it's there. Yeah.

You know what I mean? So, and what it's, what the implications of that being, it's like, you know, it had, had things been as simple as we had a black president, then during that same time of the, of the black president was Trayvon Martin was, you know, Mike Brown was Eric Garner. You know what I'm saying? So you still have this continual, which hasn't changed in any way, this interaction of brutality towards black people. You know what I'm saying?

And then after that, it's like, then why was there a George Floyd uprising? Why are we still talking about this? You know what I'm saying? So what I'm saying is, why is why is flint michigan why do they still not have water you know what is their population rate between you know i'm saying so it's just like just just just gotta be honest about it you know so yes absolutely that was an amazing day you know i'm saying yeah but i'm logging for the day that you don't even have to point at it where it's like it wasn't a thing at all. To me, it's like that's how you know we're done.

The fact that it was such a unique thing. The fact that it's unique means we got work to do. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? So to me, it's like that's it's like, you know, it's you know, it's changed. You know, things have changed when you don't notice it. You know what I'm saying? To me. So it's like, you know, I was watching the X Games.

And then after that, I was watching the Olympics. And my daughter wants to do gymnastics. She's in gymnastics now. And I was watching this and I was like, and it hit me that I was like, dang, the women's gymnastic team is two black girls and two Asian girls. And I was like, like wow that's crazy like i never you know what i'm saying and i just went whoa whoa you know what i mean and i'm like but i noticed it you know it's when it's when you don't notice to me is when it's like all right

now we're at a place where things have like that does that make sense? Yeah. That almost – I could see somebody interpreting that as almost the theory of like colorblindness that people say isn't – Oh, not at all. Yeah. I know that's not what you're saying, but people – I'd almost say somebody could say, well, wait a minute. We're critiqued for arguing for colorblindness, whatever, but that's not –

No, that's not what i'm saying i'm still saying that we're saying we're saying we've had we've had one black president yeah he was the first and it was our lifetime and you ready to and you it's like it's like you're down by 30 in the fourth quarter you hit a three-pointer and then you're taking all your starters out you're just like oh we got it we got it you know what i'm say put the reveals like fool what are you talking about doc like you just hit one shot like what you over here celebrating are you doing e-slides like it's a soccer match you just hit one jumper yeah like bro like we got a lot of work fam the game ain't over so to me that's to summarize my answer it would be that it's like yeah, we hit a jumper in the third quarter, guys, but we're down by 30. So you can't take your starters out. You got to keep, you know what I'm saying?

LeBron, take a break. We got this. Like, no, fool. Hit another one, LeBron. Yeah. All right, another talking point. I could probably just say one word here, fatherlessness. At the end of the 60s

and don't you can correct me if if you know the percentages something like 30 percent 25 percent of the black community were raised without a father which is fairly low but now it's something like 70 percent and a lot of people would say that that is at least a significant reason for some of these economic disparities. What would you... Well, the question, I mean, first of all, I would push back on the stats to say that, like, we're no less out of our homes than any other race. Our numbers are no different than anybody else's.

Okay. Do you know what I'm saying? Wait, is that, I don't have the, I mean, is that, like, the rate of fatherlessness is not any higher? The rate of fatherlessness is not any higher? The rate of fatherlessness is not, is the disparage between black families, white families, Asian families. Matter of fact, it's Latino families who have the most presence of their fathers. You know what I'm saying? So it's not, it's not so much. Yeah, it's like our divorce rates aren't any lower or higher.

They're not the same, obviously. And most of the disparages between fatherlessness has much more to do with economic issues rather than race issues, location issues, access to jobs. the jobs so i guess the question what you would ask would say this is the interlocking part of it to say well why are why is there not around yeah specifically in the black community and then why are fathers not around in every other community rather than saying well they don't have dads well well kind of none of us do you know i'm saying? And then and if you and and another which is dope because the New York Times did this story about this. It's like black fathers, when they are around, are statistically more involved with their children's lives than pretty much anyone else. You know what I'm saying? They're actually more present when they're present, you know. You know what I'm saying? They're actually more present when they're present, you know? So I think, so my, so my question would be, again, like, first of all, like, I would,? Does it have to do with, uh, you know, crime rates?

Are we more penalized, heavier for the same crimes, which we are, you know what I'm saying? Is it, uh, and, and again, why are we leaving? Why, why are white families breaking up? You know what I'm saying? And, and are the, is it the same reasons or is it different? Are they breaking up for luxury? Is it because of love? Is it fine?

You know what I'm saying? Like, why are they gone? You feel me? So once you and I think once you once you parse those things out, then you go, OK, so. Again, I'm arguing going back to the first part, systems interlock like they're not they're not something you could parse out and say, oh, this is the problem. It's like, no, it's they're all connected. you could parse out and say, oh, this is the problem. It's like, no, it's, it's, they're all connected. So I'm not going to argue that fatherlessness ain't a problem, but I'm going to say, well, let's unpack that. Okay. Why? You know what I'm saying? Why is it a problem? Yeah. Is, and is it unique to black people? Okay. You know what I mean? Like I'll even jump forward to your, probably your next one, which would be the black on black crime. And I'm like, it was in there somewhere. Yeah. I was like, is like is it i mean is anyone looking at any

asian on asian crime or latino latino crime or white on white crime like why are you parsing this out you know i'm saying and and it's always like that because of proximity like because it's who we're next to so we're good you know i'm saying that's the way communities work you feel me like yeah we cluster in these communities and crime happens locally so of course our stats are gonna you know i'm saying but so are yours you feel me so i'm like so to me i'm like well that's to me that's like well that's a non-statistic because it doesn't it doesn't show anything you know what i mean it shows what we already know which is you you commit crimes against your neighbors everyone does you would have i guess to for i

don't know if this even exists but you would have to compare say south chicago the socioeconomic status the crime rates and then maybe go to a largely poor white yeah clustering of the same socioeconomic status and see if the crime rates are higher lower the same whatever i mean it's like if you're if you're gonna if you're gonna parse it by race it's like, if you're, if you're going to, if you're going to parse it by race, it's like, if you're in Toad Suck, Arkansas and you rob a guy, you're going to rob a white dude. And the dude that robbed you was a white dude because that's who's there. You know what I'm saying? So I'm like, I just feel like it doesn't, that one doesn't show anything. You know what I'm saying? For me, I don't, as I, and I, I try to listen to both sides. I don't listen to a lot of politics stuff, but when I do, I try to always bow.

Like, what does this side say? What does that side say? Just so I'm not in an echo chamber. And as I hear maybe the right bring that up, it's not so much like, see, it's more like, how come we're not talking about, you know, how are people getting shot in South Chicago in several, you know, like this is a huge issue. And to me, it's like, that's the part that's disingenuous because Chicago is talking about it. Oh, okay. And I'm like, Judy, I'm like, well, that, that shows me that like, oh, well, you're not there or you're just weaponizing this. So it's just not making the national,

maybe headlines as much. It's making national news. It depends on what channel you're on, you know what I'm saying? Or what you, or or again what you're weaponizing i'm like i am a product right who you you are listening to now i'm a product of good gang intervention of inner city you know big brothers big sisters local ogs who did daytime came out of prison and was like this is not the life you want you know i'm saying yeah when when we had you know anti-gang rallies and and you know what i mean and and park days they call set days where like the local gang would like do these like you know little like baseball games you know i'm saying and just like you know and i know it seems complicated but it's because y'all you're not here yeah yeah you're not there you know i'm saying so like when you're there you're like

we have these marches we had these stop the violence marches stop the violence crusade so it's like you like you're you know box little like corner boxing little like you know gyms and stuff like that these are these are interventions that are that are attempting to stop this violence you know i'm saying so i'm like if you're only peeking your head in here just to point at the problem, it's like, well, to me, I'm going, even if it's a point, you're absolutely correct. Yeah, 100 people got shot in Chicago,

but I'm like, but you're just weaponizing them. You're not saying that to help us. You're not saying that out of the concern for those 100 people. You're saying that to shut somebody else up. Because then I'm like, now I can't you serious yeah because you're just you're just weaponizing it rather than acknowledging yeah there are hundreds and hundreds of people on the ground doing their best to uplift their community that's that would you say that that might be

one of the key points of tension between and again again, I don't even know what category to use, left, right. I don't want to say black, white because that makes me – but just that, yeah, that if you use a valid, say, statistic to weaponize the conversation without being actually – like that – That's it. that's disgusting so it's like to me that's the part that like the part of partisanship that like i am not interested in like i have no desire to weaponize nothing and i also don't want to like you know i call it like putting your finger on jello it's like yeah where you're just you're just playing whack-a-mole so if you're if all right and you're you're shooting all these things down, that might be true or not true. But it's like you're making me chase this like rabbit across this, you know, the screen. And I'm like, OK, so at some point I go, what's what's your goal here? Like, is your like, what are you trying? What is your point? And if your point is to just say your worldview is wrong, then I'm like, well, that's not helping. Like, you know what I'm saying?

Again, going back to the book thing, I'm like, what I'm trying to say is let's imagine something else. Like, it doesn't have to be like this. We don't have to keep playing whack-a-mole. Like, you know what I'm saying? Again, you're right. There is violence in our inner cities. But why, though? Right.

Like, how did we get here you know i'm saying who do we is there blood on all of our hands and wherever that is i'm like that's what i mean by like let's not ignore the obvious of course it is you know i'm saying of course like are you like i just don't understand why you just like, what about this is so ghastly, especially as a believer where I'm like, do you know what the cross says about you? It's not good. You know what I'm saying? So I'm like, you had to look, you had to look that in the face. You had to accept that. You don't have to bounce around it.

You didn't give other reasons to say, well, what about, what about, what about, what about? No, what Christ says is like, no, no, no, it you gotta look at it you know i'm saying so i'm like you can accept it in your faith yeah well i'm like i just don't understand why you can't accept it with your nation you just have to look at it just look at it i'm and that's what i'm trying to do that's what even even when it comes to like gang violence i'm looking at it i know i'm looking at it because i live here yeah you don't feel me so i'm like we would know it sucks yeah you feel me so i'm like i'm but i'm but i'm looking past that as to how we got here and i'm like well let's deal with that you feel me and some of that stuff is on me some of that stuff is on this that created the environment

that made that you feel me and i'm like well let's deal with all of it so here from again from my from my naive perspective when i hear the the the left talk it's kind of like systems structures um you know uh all the leftover effects of you know jim crow and everything when i hear the right talk it's individual agency it's father it cannot be a complex blend like it's not either one or the other obviously we're personal agents but obviously the systems aren't new like those play a role especially given the really recent history of some of that stuff like that's that's been my default position it's like it's probably a complex blend um so rather than just argue one against the

other let's let's unravel some of that blend would that be a valid i mean that's the like that's the my stance where i was like yo the personal is political like it's it's both you know it's and and i think that like trying to make a dichotomy about that is the culture wars that i'm saying we're just in the we're in the shadow of to where i'm like we don't we don't have to do this you know what I'm saying so but my question where I pull out of the whole like from the 10th where I pull into the 10,000 feet and it is I again start asking that next question like why why can't you acknowledge this you know I'm saying like i in in my sense i'm going i i took the responsibility of like i went off to college you know i you know i went went and got a master's degree i did the

homework you know i mean i did the work now but i'm saying that knowing full well that my parents both in my lifetime became college grads like both of them finished school when i was in high school you know i'm saying so i know i went to college okay that's a feat but i'm also the child of two college grads i'm of that. Whereas my best friend is not, you know what I'm saying? Now my parents split, but I saw my father. I saw my father all the time. I'm aware of that. It's both. I took my responsibility and I understand that I got into that college because of race quotas. I know that. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, and I'm, and I'm glad they did because you know what I'm saying? Because my GPA wasn't, it was just as high as everybody else. But if, but if I know, if I know, if I know that, if, if I know that my, my 3.8 GPA, you know what I'm saying? Uh,

next to this white boy with a 3.8 GPA, if they didn't, if I, if, if the country didn't make them choose me, you know what I'm saying, they wouldn't have. I just, and I'm like, I just know that. You know what I'm saying? Now, did that mean that I went in there and coasted? No, I put in the work. So I worked really hard. I graduated honors out of college.

You know what I'm saying? So it was the same thing. It's like, but I did that knowing that I didn't have to work full time to support my mom. Whereas some of my friends did. They got in a car and had to drop out because they had to support their mothers. And I'm like, this is something that I'm aware of. So I'm like, it's both. There's no problem with understanding both.

My problem is, why can't anyone just acknowledge that? Again, power makes you ignore the obvious. And I'm like, I'm not makes you ignore the obvious and i'm like i'm not gonna ignore the obvious you know i'm saying yes there's poor white people why though that's what i'm like well let's get to the why okay and do i want y'all to stay poor no why would i want you to like i want you to have jobs too you feel me like i want you hooked on drugs that sucks i don't want the police beating your head in that sucks you know i'm saying and i'm like wow i don't i'm not at war with y'all yeah you feel me so to me

it's like that's that's the part that i'm like right, whatever. I'm not at war with the culture. I am the culture. You feel me? I'm not at war with you. Yeah. That's super helpful. What about people point out that America is not perfect, has loads of problems, has a dark history, but every country has had a super dark history. It's not like America had the corner market on slavery or racism or class distinction.

In fact, it's among all of the countries in the world, it's among the least racist or most wealthy. Even our poorest people are far richer than people in other locations. I'm sure you've heard that talking point. I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. Yeah, I think I have a T-shirt that says, because it's the first lyric on my album, I don't hate America, I just demand she keeps her promises. So I'm like, you just made a promise.

And I think it's more, I just wish America matched its marketing. Promise being equal opportunity, right? Not equal outcomes necessarily, but equal opportunity. Promise being equal opportunity, right? Not equal outcomes necessarily, but equal opportunity. No, equal opportunity, yeah. So to me, it's like, of course, like you said, America has problems and so does every other country. Would be fine, except America sells itself as exceptional. Where I'm like, no, you said you were the greatest country on God's greener. You said you were the best at everything. You're the one that stood up and said,

we are the example, the shining light to the whole world. We are the beaking of lights. They're the greatest country in the world. That's what y'all said. You know what I'm saying? So now had you came out and been like, yo, you know what I'm saying? Young upshot. We're going to do our best. You feel me? Like, hey, we got a lot of problems like everybody else, but we're going to fight to make ourselves better. It's like, no, you came out like and said we are the greatest. So I get to go, oh, word?

You are? Really? Okay. Well, show me some receipts. Are you the greatest? Hey, man, maybe you're not as great as you say you are. Well, yeah. I mean, well, everybody else got it right.

Well, you're the one that said you was the greatest. Like, you feel me? So I'm like, well, then as you say you are well yeah i mean where everybody else got right well you're the one that said you was the greatest like you'll feel me so i'm like well then don't say you the greatest and then when somebody shows you you not be like well nobody's perfect you just said you were you feel me so to me it's like well then don't talk that you know don't talk that talk then right then if you want me to if you want to if you want to calibrate yourself to everybody else then stop talking like you the better than, then you better than everybody else. Yeah. You don't feel me? So that would be my number one.

And then I think number two is. Real quick prop for the video. You're drifting to your left. Oh, sorry. I'm not making a political statement. Yeah, you are. Yeah, number two no yeah and then number two to answer like the wealth question is again it's like i'm like now again you're ignoring the obvious why do we get so wealthy

and why do we get so wealthy so fast you know i'm saying i'm like you if you go if you're gonna use it as a flex you better explain why we got there you feel me me? And I'm like, well, it's 150 years of free labor. You know, so like, why else? Why are you so wealthy? You know what I mean? And so I think that there's like if you're going to pull out a card, if you're going to pull out a flex, it's like anything. It's like, you know, if you're going to talk trash, you know, like if you're an athlete, all right, you're going to talk trash. You got to put it on the court. You feel me? And if you put it on the court, then because you brought it up, I have the right to push back. You feel me? So to me, it's like, just as like, it's like, again, going back to the theology, it's like, you don't come in here and sit yourself in

the front of the table. You come in there, you come in there humble. You know what I'm saying? table you come in there you come in there humble you know i'm saying you have a contrite spirit you feel me so to me it's like i my argument is like well you came in braggadocious so i have it so you gave me the you gave me that's a green light i get to call you on it you know what i mean do you think that's an underlying point in in this like the because america does have this arrogance about it about how great it is how is, that it's inviting this kind of like, well, wait a minute, look at. Because you can't just make statements and then when somebody challenge you on it, you got nothing to back it up. You know what I'm saying? And if your defense is.

You said I'm the greatest in the world. And then I go, well, what about this, this, this, this and this? And you go, well, everybody's got problems. And I'm like, that shouldn't have nothing to do with it you said you was the greatest who cares what anybody else is doing i think that was you sorry go ahead i was like that was your argument and i and if that's the case then i'm like then you said to me it's like that's that to me that's un-american because i you set up, you setting yourself a low standard. You comparing yourself to people you think you better than, than you setting your bar too low. You feel me? I'm like, what? I don't like, it shouldn't matter what they doing.

If you the greatest, you know what I'm saying? If you the beacon on the hill, you need to be setting a standard. You don't look at what they doing. You look at what you doing. Keep your eye on you then. You know what I'm saying? Like, if you then you know i'm saying like if you like if you should be like hey our poor state got this this this this problem that's unacceptable i don't care what they're doing that's unacceptable because we're the greatest you feel me then i'm handling it you know what i mean it's like you know i remember like again it's a you're like using the athletic thing it's like dang i scored 25 points today dang and you like what are you talking about the rest of the team only scored 10 you like no i need to score 40 points i don't care what they're doing i need to score this i'm like that if you're gonna you

talking about the goat you're talking about you to go then i'm like then i don't need to hear nothing about nobody else because you're the goat yeah yeah right and then or i get to go or you're not yeah like or you're not the goat or you're just like. Right? Or I get to go, or you're not. Or you're not the goat, or you're just like you actually said in your defense, just like everybody else. We're just a country with goods, with good and with bad. To me, it boils down to that. I'm like, again, can we just be real, dog? We're just one of many countries that we got strengths. We did good on some stuff. We suck at some other stuff. Let's be honest with ourselves so that we can deal with the stuff we suck at you know i'm saying not be fragile about it not be so precious about it be so scared to talk about the stuff you suck at

like why are you so scared to talk about the stuff you suck at just i don't mean i hate you you know i'm saying like you know when you suck at something your coach when you suck at dribbling do your coach hate you no you suck at dribbling i do your coach hate you? No, you suck at dribbling. I'm just saying you need to practice. You need to work on your dribble. Like, why is that such a diss? You feel me? I'm like, relax, doc.

Like, you need to be better at this. That's all I'm saying. You need to be better at how you treat different people. You just need to be better at it. Like, what's wrong with that? You know? God, dog. Man, relax damn relax so fragile so sensitive man you know and especially for people for these uh especially for that for that for that block of

the world that thinks that like that that my cheese these colors don't bleed out you know i'll die for this country and i'm like well your country got this don't you talk about like yo why are you so sensitive g right like yo chill Like, yo, chill, fam. Like, you got an issue. I'm just saying. Like, why is it like it voted you over, dog? Why are you so fragile? Yeah. Well, there's also I mean, on your second point, too. I mean, as you said, you got 150, 200 years of free labor. That's a huge point. There's also the global impact of America's wealth. I think it's really complicated too. It's like if our wealth and our success... My identity is in Jesus, not in my nation. So I

even hate using the plural pronoun to refer to my Babylon, but whatever. But if, and I'm not an economist, I don't know all the ins and outs of it, but I mean, if other people around the globe are suffering economically, physically, as a nation, and that's feeding into our success, if that plays a role, then that's as a Christian who's globally minded, by definition, that's an issue too. And that's something I don't hear people talk about either. Yeah. Well, we're better than that country, that poor country over there. It's like, well, did our wealth affect their poverty and if so that's an issue too right yeah then it's dirty money you know yeah that's true you know um yeah and it's like well we give more than what we also took more did you know what i'm saying so it's like and and to me it's like even you bringing up that point is me coming back to the calibration of being like

yo we're one of many yeah you know and and that's okay that's still beautiful it's beautiful to be a part of a community a global community a tapestry you don't say you don't have like it doesn't take away from your specialness to consider yourself as one of many, you know, which I think as a nation and as a person, like we should feel like that is a member of the body. Like, yo, you being just a member is not just a member. That's beautiful. You know what I'm saying? You're one of many and that's beautiful. Like you don't have to have some sort of special ray of light over your head for Jesus to think that your nose is better than everybody else's. Your nose is so... It's like, you don't need that. It doesn't

take away from you to be a part of a collective. That's beautiful. So I think that that's something as a nation we could use. Like, yo, you're still... It's fine, man. You're one of many. Yeah. You know? Yeah. So I've already taken you over an hour, but man, you've You're one of many. I've already taken you over an hour, but man, you've said a couple times why the church needs critical race theory. I can't let you go without it. I need that teased out a little bit.

I've had several people on the show talking about CRT, so my audience hopefully has gotten several perspectives. But what is CRT in a nutshell, if that's even possible, and why does a church need it? Yeah, I mean, first of all, I think it does, whether it knows or not, it's been using it the whole time. It's just now it's a name or a buzzword. But I think there's a little bit of parsing out that has to happen. It's like, you know, weird. It's a law theory. out that has to happen is like you know weird it's a law theory you know I'm saying so when you talk about like how your identities intersect of course we're not talking about your salvation it's not interested in that that's not it's not even what it's about at all it's about how we interact with the laws and how we interact differently with the laws and understanding why certain things impact this community differently than that one and just the history behind it it's i mean it's

it's just that's dangerous about it it's just this is what happened and not only that it's just a theory and it's one of many but some of the questions um that it's raised or that a lot of times people are still trying to wrestle with it's like it's this is a good it's just a good it's just a good tool it's just a just a pair of glasses you know you can use this pair of glasses to kind of help you understand something it's not not like that. I mean, it's it's not gospel. Wasn't meant to be gospel. You know what I'm saying? It's like it's just as good the law. And I'm like, we all have multiple identities. And it's trying to help you understand that. I'm like, it's like you got to I mean, you got a driver's license. OK, do I got a state on it and a number and an address?

That's a political identity. You know what I'm saying? You are a member of that state. So the law relates to you. Based on those intersections. Well, how is that? What does that have to do with your. What does that have to do with your salvation? What about that is so dangerous to you? You carry it all the time. You got account numbers. You got credit card numbers. These are all intersecting identities. You know what I'm saying? And the law treats you differently based on those identifying factors. This is just saying, post Jim Crow, post civil rights era, how is the law interacting with people of color? That's it. It's just to help you understand.

It's an academic, it's not even critical theory, which would be in fact Marxist. But what the hell is wrong with understanding Marxist thought? yeah you ain't got it it's just a lens it's you know i'm saying it's just a pair of glasses like it's it's like there's nothing you're just reading it so what's that like what you're one of many thoughts you know what i'm saying what you're describing seems really innocent uh why are so many people up in arms and i i have not read any critical theory or critical race theory the original sources um so i'm just going on yeah twitter debates and stuff i see i mean yeah i can only see it's hard for me in this sense to not see the because it's kind of like it's kind of baffling to me too to where i'm just like i don't understand what where the monster

is like you know what i mean um where's the boogeyman like i really i actually i'll be honest with you i don't see i don't see how because because of how i guess well i understand the theory it's just like and that it's just and that it's it's like 70 years old and it's and it's just the theory you know i'm saying it's like this ain't we didn't just make this up talking like this for a while like you know you know what I'm saying? So I just don't. I my only answer can be cynical, you know, in the sense that this sort of like fear of Marxism, you know, that to me really just goes back to the Cold War, which has much more to do with marketing than the idea. Because I'm pretty sure, I mean, you know Marxists now. They're just not by name Marxists. You know what I mean?

Because it's just an idea. You know what I'm saying? And yeah, all ideas aren't equal some are more damaging and dangerous than others yeah you know of course i got that's not what i'm saying but i think that like i i since i don't understand what you're so scared of what people are so scared of or what they're so up in arms about, all I can draw conclusions on is you don't want to face the reality of racism. It's like, you just don't want to look at it, you know, especially like you take like the 1619 project and then the 1776 project. Like, so I can't teach about slavery like but it happened like i don't

understand i well i just why it happened like what do you want me to say dude like who's arguing that we don't teach about slavery though is that that was in the 1776 project because when the 1619 project was to talk about the history of was to do a full after 400 year anniversary of the first slave touching American soil. There was pushes to like not teach that in school. And. Which which funny to me is like everything I knew about black history, I learned outside of school. So I don't know what you're worried about anyway. Ain't nobody teaching us. Anyway, it's not happening in school. But I just, I think, I honestly like, I honestly don't understand what is so scary.

It's not that serious to me. It could be a misunderstanding or misrepresentation of what it is. And I don't know the critics of it. I've listened to some of the critics. I've listened to some people on both sides and stuff. So it's hard because I do need to go and read the original stuff, Bell and Crenshaw and Delgado and those guys. And just so I know from the people who are actually the ones who are

advocating for, what are you saying? And are these critics representing you? Well, cause sometimes the representations are like, well, it's teaching white people to hate themselves or it's, um,

like, where'd you get that? Or it's, you know what I'm saying? I don't, yeah, I don't, that's what I mean.

I'm like, that's y'all, that's all you. Like, is that what you heard? Like, you don't mean, I'm like, no, I don't. That's what I mean. I'm like, that's on you. Like, is that what you heard? Yeah. Like, you know what I mean? I'm like, no, it's a law theory.

Like, that's what I'm trying to say. I can't express this more. It is an academic, nerdy, ivory tower law theory to understand what happened after Jim Crow. So it's not being talked. I keep hearing, like like in news headlines, like they're mandating to teach CRT in elementary school or something like that. Is that not?

Where? It's like, to me, the hard part is like, it falls under that same like, you know, you're in Bozeman, Montana, and you've been convinced that these illegal immigrants are coming to take your job. I'm like, I'm going to walk around your city for the next four hours. I'm going to look for a Mexican out here in Bozeman, Montana. Which one of these illegal immigrants is taking your jobs?

Do you know what I'm saying? I'm like, what are you talking about? Ain't no Mexicans up here. Ain't no Latinos up here. Who taking what jobs? Who taking what? You feel me? So when you say, well, they're teaching in elementary school, I'm like, which one?

Yeah. Where? I know I ain't learned. I ain't learned nothing about black history in school. You know what I'm saying? So I'm like, I don't learned nothing about black history in school you know what I'm saying so I'm like I don't know what you're talking about and if I did it was because the teacher went off the rails you know what I'm saying so I'm like I just I don't I don't I don't know what to say I don't you know I mean so I'm like I don't I don't know what to say except for I don't

understand why this is so scary to you to me it's like to me that's the more interesting question like why would you draw that conclusion that this is teaching you to hate white people is it because it's i'm like that's a that's a jump that's a heart jump because i'm like what it is showing is that yeah the law the laws have benefited white people for a long time but like like, yeah, duh. Like, no one already know that. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, so why is this any?

You know what that means to hate? Did nobody say that? That's what you said. So to me, it's more like that to me sounds like, well, you have some issues to deal with. You have yet to stare into the void. You know what I mean? It's almost like you have yet to look at that cross. You know what I'm saying?

And be like, oh, crap. Like, I got blood on my hands okay you ain't gotta hate yourself for that you but like you're paying forward yeah you know i'm saying like do i look at myself i know that i know that my wife makes 70 cents to the dollar because i'm a male you know i'm saying like i know that but that don't mean i say well i teach you to hate men no what it teaches me is to say hey we should do something about that she should she should get equal pay that's what it teaches me it's like that sucks man that sucks she's actually smarter than me she's more qualified she should make more yeah is there a way that i can help her make more cool then yo pay her more i just i don't i don't hate being a man i hate that she's paid less you feel me so i'm like so i'm like anybody

teaching you to hate white people you should hate how people of color have been treated yeah that's what you should hate yeah then i'm like what's what's what's wrong with that yeah i don't understand what's wrong with that like we're going going full circle back to the opioid epidemic i think it sucks that your uncle in prison that's i think that's terrible he shouldn't be in prison that's a broken justice system you don't put addicts in prison like No, you get them treatment, man. I think that sucks. I'm not standing in the jail saying, see there, see how it feels.

No, I'm like, what can I do to make sure this man don't get locked up no more? You know? Yeah. All right, Prop, I got to let you go, man. You've given us a lot to think about. Terraform is the book. Amazon, or where do you want them to go to check it out? I'll put a link in the notes.

Preston, I can't even hear you. Oh, you there? Check, check. Well, I think we're done anyway, so I'll put the – you can't hear me, but you guys can hear me hopefully um yeah the book is Terraform I guess check it out on Amazon or just google it and I'm sure you can find it take care you