Theology in the Raw - S8 Ep890: The Holiness of God: Jackie Hill Perry

Episode Date: August 5, 2021

Jackie HIll Perry is a rockstar. Actually, she’s a Christian, poet, musician, artist, author, mother, and wife--in no particular order (except the Christian part is most important). Her latest book Holier Than Thou, releases on Aug. 17, 2021 and talks about how God is not like us, is different, is holy, and that’s exactly what makes Him trustworthy. In this conversation, we talk about God’s holiness and character, human sexuality, and Jackie’s personal life as a high profile Christian influencer.  Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.comVenmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

All right, friends, you ready for this? I am so excited about this introduction. I'm excited about this podcast. I mean, goodness gracious, I've got Jackie Hill Perry on the podcast talking about her new book, Holier Than Thou. We spent a lot of time talking about God in this podcast. We also do talk about sexuality. She shares a lot of details about just her personal life, too. We got into some, yeah, just kind of a cool, free in the Raw conferences here in Boise next year, 2022. I don't have a registration page up yet. It's going to be up very soon. We're still solidifying some of the guests, but please save the date. Theology in the Raw conference, March 31st, April 1st, and April 2nd. That's a Thursday night, Friday all day, Saturday morning. You can come in Thursday, leave Saturday afternoon. You only have to stay two

nights. It's going to be... I'm so excited. I can't tell you. I want this to be like no other Christian conference. We're going to talk about race. We're going to have a three-hour conversation with different voices on race, on CRT, on multi-ethnicity in the gospel. We're going to talk about sexuality. We're going to talk about gender. We're going to hear testimonies. We're going to talk about creation care in the gospel. We're going to hear different perspectives on hell.

We're going to hear about a Christian approach to politics, a Christian view on progressivism that we are all wrestling with. And on and on it goes. We've got a lineup of some killer voices. Some of the ones that are confirmed are, should I even reveal? You know what? Yeah, some of the ones that are confirmed. Confirmed. Derwin Gray is confirmed. That dude, I'll tell you something else. I think I just, yeah, I'm so excited that Derwin's going to be out here.

John Tyson, Dr. Sandy Richter. Thabiti Anyubwile is going to be here. And there are a few other names you will definitely recognize that are in the process of making that final decision. And I really, really hope that they are able to make it to the conference. We're going to have – it's just going to be an amazing time. It's going to be amazing. Lots of time for Q&A. If you come to the conference, every speaker,

you're going to get a chance to ask them questions. What conference does that happen at? Like, you ever been to a conference and somebody gives a nice, powerful talk, but you're like, yeah, but what about this? Or what about that? But I don't know if you represented that view correctly. Like, you'll have a chance to respond to the speakers. We're going to have lots of discussions, lots of dialogue. We're going to mix it up.

It's going to be amazing. So save the date, March 31st through April 2nd. If you cannot make it out to, it's in Boise, Idaho. Okay. My hometown, you got to come to Boise. Boise is an awesome city. If you haven't been here yet, everybody that visits loves it. Stay an extra few days, go on a hike. It's an awesome place. If you still can't make it, there will be a live stream option. So no matter what, unless you're having a baby or going to be at a wedding or I don't know, if you can't make it, so sad. Actually, if you can't make it, you can still sign up for the live stream option. And we're going to try to make it to where you will still have access to those recordings after. So

March 31st through April 2nd, the Theology in Raw conference here on Boise. If you would like to support the show, you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw. You know all the details. They are all in the show notes. Let's get to know the one and only the Jackie Hill Perry. All right. Welcome back to Theology Narah, Jackie. Holier than thou. What led you to want to write a book on holiness when this topic, I mean, I wouldn't say this is the most attractive topic or something that is just, you know, books that are just flying off the shelf talking about holiness. And I don't know, maybe that's one of your motivations, but yeah. What, what, what did you get the idea for writing this book? And, uh, yeah, I would love to hear kind of an elevator pitch of what it's all about. Yeah, I don't even know where the original, original idea came from.

But I think if anyone has followed me for a considerable amount of time, I think you'll see a great emphasis on the person of God in my ministry. That's what intrigues me. It's just always undergirding everything I say. what intrigues me. It kind of is just always undergirding everything I say. And so when it came to holiness, that's kind of like a really big deal as it relates to the nature of God, you know? And so I started to, I started to wonder like, man, I'm curious about this subject. And so my curiosity was like, let's write a book about it. So a book is a really great excuse to spend two years studying it, you know? And I, and I, and I also feel like a lot of the books I had read, uh, prior to, um, yeah, a lot of the books

I had read about the topic, it felt like they only focused on the moral purity of God and how that related to our lack of holiness. And so these books, they made me super introspective, but also super discouraged. And I was just like, I feel like there's more to holiness than just wrath and judgment. And so really the whole point of my book is to say, man, if God is morally pure and if God is transcendent and if his holiness really is an expression of his beauty,

then that is an incentive for our faith. It's to say that all that God has revealed Himself to be really is our greatest reason for why we should trust Him. And I think that's a completely different angle than saying, God is holy, stop sinning, so you won't go to hell. So when I heard you were writing the book, I mean, I don't know if I heard from you or just... No, I think you told me when you were... We talked about it. Last summer, and that wasn't public yet, I don't think.

So yeah, I guess I knew about it before it started hitting. But my immediate thought was like, there's been some pretty good books that I've read on holiness. A lot of them were written more than 60 years ago. But man, and I love theology. So like, I, I, I like these books, but man, they're, they're not written very like beautifully in the sense of like, I don't think this, this author is very creative. So I was like, man, this, this might be the first book on this topic by somebody who has,

you know, a good level of creativity and imagination and just flair in your writing style. I think Tozer, I think Knowledge of the Holy is special. I think that's one of the few that I've read that not only engages me theologically, but also my affections. He was a good writer, wasn't he? He was, it was beautiful. It was beautiful writing. Yeah. I don't know too many Christians that that book hasn't had a massive,

I mean, that was probably the first, second, maybe, maybe the first Christian book I i read um yeah i it's yeah it just blew my mind you know is that the book where you said the the the most important thing what's that phrase what's the line the the uh what comes into your mind when you think about god is the most important thing about you that's like in his introduction and he so he just starts off the gate, like, oh man, now I'm like thinking about what I think about. So it's just, it's just a, and so that book really inspired me, um, in my, and how I approached holier than thou. It really made me say, okay, how do I not only teach and explain the scriptures as it reveals God, but how do I also engage the imagination and the affection of readers as I do so? And so, yeah, A.W. Tozer is totally a big inspiration for the way I wrote this book.

How is your book different than his? Yeah, I'm curious. I'm more poetic in my approach you know much way more metaphors uh it's longer i think tozer's book it doesn't it's kind of it's a quick read yeah um and then i i dig deeper into passages and walk so even i have a chapter about uh called uh unholy gods and basically saying trying to explain how our idols are unholy because they lack the transcendent and uh moral value that god himself has and i walk through exodus 19 for an entire chapter and so i don't think tozer's book has those types of things where it feels like you're kind of walking through a sermon. I don't know if he dealt with this. It's been

so long since I read it. But I mean, like you said, you have the moral character of God, then you have just the transcendent set-apartness, the creature-creator distinction. I feel like we often view that very abstractly or through an individual lens. But what about holiness as like the Leviticus holiness, like we're to be a set-apart people from the world, almost like cultural holiness, if you will. Is that inaccurate? I'm just thinking out loud here. Are those categories? I think that's one way to apply it because we can't apply God's eternality to ourselves, you know, his utter independence from creation and creatures in terms of his existence. But I think we can apply like, man, like God is different and he's unique and he's set apart from the world. So in the same way, I need to be set apart from the world.

I'm still dependent. I'm still creaturely, but I'm unique and I exist in a different way than those who haven't been made new creatures. So I think that's one way to try to apply God's holiness to our own, you know, way of life. What were some things that you like know now or believe now that you didn't back then maybe maybe it wasn't like a change of view but just something like wow this studying this topic for two years like my life is not gonna be the same after this because of these certain truths or anything or maybe you did change i'm curious if you did have a change of a view or perspective while writing the book? Yeah. I think, uh, I think what I believe is just, it's,

it's become more concrete for one, but I think I even like, the best example I can give is my prayer life is different. Like my honesty with God is different. My consistency with prayer is different. And it's because I'm much more, I'm much less guarded with God. And I think I've gotten that just from, it, can any of you convict me of sin? If not, why don't you believe me? Man, that's a profound statement. If a human being was to say that, they would be a narcissist. To say there is nothing in me that you can accuse me of being wrong or unrighteous or unethical.

And it's like, man, if that is the God that I serve, why can't I just tell him the truth and say, I don't like this. This is uncomfortable. But it's also, man, if this is the God I serve in his sovereignty, you're being really wise. You're being morally pure. You're being good. And so I think it frees you to just have a relationship You're being morally pure. You're being good. And so it just,

I think it frees you to just have a relationship and a friendship with God in a way that's just different. That's good. So you mentioned Exodus 19. That's a good one. Do you have a chapter on Isaiah six? I mean, is that, I know that's always, that's the introduction. I think that's the first chapter. Okay. Yeah. You kind of have to. it's like a thing like you have the angels saying holy holy holy is the lord of hosts the whole earth is full of his glory and it's it's it's it's interesting because it's like man if i think in our modern culture in our modern society if anyone was to sing about the nature of god the first thing they would say most likely is love, love, love. And so it's significant that the only time that

an attribute of God is sung three times is in Revelation and in Isaiah, and it's all about the holiness of God. And that says something, that this is the attribute that seems to anchor all others. Because if he wasn't holy, would he be loved? No. His holiness is what makes him so not self-centered and not self-protective and not arrogant and not egotistical and not unrighteous in his justice. It's his holiness that all the other attributes shine for, I believe. So more, so yeah, I've heard people say God is love and that's the, and it's been a while since I really thought about kind of attributes of God and how they relate. It sounds terrible.

Like isn't that something I should think about every day, but you know, you know what I mean? Hopefully, but yeah, you know, people often say, well, God is, God is all these things, but the central piece is God is love. Like that is the anchor. You're saying you want to flip that around a little bit and say even that needs to be anchored in something more foundational, namely God's holiness. Yeah, because he is love. First John says God is love. But my argument, again, is would he be loved if he was not holy? If you remove that aspect of his being, and I don't want to argue attributes as if they're like,

you know, he's holy here, he's love here, he just is who he is. But I think for the sake of understanding, you know, how how they work together it's like man if you if you remove that moral righteousness from god love is impossible at that point yeah yeah yeah i think i wonder if it is a little bit of a modern way of thinking where we want to compartmentalize or put like what's most important whatever like he is who he is but i like your language of the holiness kind of anchoring and making sense of these other attributes need holiness for these attributes to make sense.

I wonder if you could say that about all of them. I've often thought about, I've often taken Genesis 1 and 2, and I know you go back to Genesis 1 and 2 a lot too. I do. You know, Genesis 1 and 2, kind of like the transcendence of God. He's wholly other.

Genesis 2 is... I can understand why some liberal scholars say, these are written by two different people because their portrait of God is... Why do they say that? Well, I mean, several reasons. One, you have Genesis 1 uses Elohim exclusively. Genesis 2, 2-4 to the rest of the chapter uses Yahweh, Elohim, Yahweh, Elohim exclusively.

But I think it's primarily the portrait of God is Genesis 2. He's so near, so intimate, so involved in this creation. Genesis 1, he's so holy other. And I'm like, yeah, that's the God we serve. He's both, you know. Yeah. But I think those— Just even—go ahead. know yeah that's but i think even just go ahead i'm sorry you go ahead you go ahead yeah no i was gonna say just the first verse in the beginning god created whoa now we have a lot of questions where did he come from

how did he create did he borrow did he ask for advice? Where did the power come from? Where this insight? This was just all within himself. And so he really is extremely unique. But then he creates and he communicates and he talks and he abides with and he loves. But he also has a standard and a law that he imposes with consequences. And so it's just all of this transcendence and moral righteousness or moral purity working together in a really interesting way. Why do you think, this might be a softball, but I'm curious to hear what you're going to say. Why do you think there is such,

obviously, a cultural aversion, a disdain for the idea that somebody else has authority over you, over your identity, over your behavior, over your life, that they have the right to tell you what to do, what not to do.

Some of those rules, rules, and regulations might make sense to you. Some might not. And that authority doesn't have – he doesn't have to explain why. He doesn't have to. He can if he wants to, and he often does, but he doesn't have to. Just the last 30 seconds of what I – that that would just be like people be freaking out but but i see that aversion trickling down into the church right do you i mean is that in in lesser so but i don't know like that i think that's the appeal of false teaching is that most false teaching at some point allows us a sort of freedom from certain moral regulations. In Jude, you have people saying,

no, the grace of God allows us to be sensual. That was the temptation of that false teaching. I have two thoughts. I think one is deception and deceit. As observed in Genesis 3, the day you disobey God, you will actually be like him. You will have rights and the freedom to do whatever it is that you want to do, or so you think. But I think there's also, I think suffering is a reality and how it shapes us. Meaning, I think we've had people in the positions of authority, whether it's our parents, our bosses, our presidents, our whatever, who have abused us and taken advantage of us. We have relationships with people that we're supposed to trust that show themselves to be untrustworthy or unfaithful. And I really do think that that makes us super guarded from the idea of anyone having any control over us.

And one of my suspicions, which is what I address in the book, is that I think that sometimes we project the potential for abuse or unfaithfulness and flat out just unrighteousness onto God. And so it means I'm the only person that can trust me with me. I can't trust you with me because I don't know what you'll do, which is why we need to reorient our thinking and reestablish what it means for God to be holy. Because if there is the possibility that he can do you wrong, then that means he's not really God. I mean, that's so helpful. I can resonate with that psychologically. That does make sense, that if you have suffered, as so many have, traumatic abuse from an authority,

maybe it's not even trauma, but you've maybe been through spiritual abuse. And I've been listening to that podcast on Mars on Mars Hill church. You've been listening. It's fantastic. It's sad, but it's fantastic. Yeah. It's, it's enlightening and it's neat. I would say it's needed. Cause I, yeah. Listening to it. I'm like agonizing. I'm like angry. I'm looking at my own heart. Like how am I like, how am I maybe I'm abusing authority and just that

the responsibility that comes with any kind of platform or position of power it's all it's not an easy listen but I can imagine, I know people who went through Mars Hill and the stories they tell, man.

But physical abuse, a father figure, a church figure, a trusted person. I can see, I can absolutely see where people would hear about the authority of God. God the Father even, right? Yeah. And not even extremes, just there, we are always, there are always minor offenses against us even, you know, like someone ignores you when you're speaking, doesn't answer your phone call. Like just there's even the small things I think wear on our humanity where it's like, man, like people don't love me the way I believe I should be loved, which is true. Nobody loves us the way that we should be loved except God.

But we live in a space and in a world where we were not exposed, I think, to that love in the way that we will be in heaven. And it's frustrating. How's the book been received so far? It's not out yet, so I don't know. Oh, it comes out in three weeks. Yeah. No, I don't know. But, I mean, it's hard to judge from your editors and things

because they have a little bias in them. Yeah. I love that you are the one writing this book. I'm not going to mention, but like more of a, for lack of better terms, kind of an old school theologian who's, I don't know, is probably going to repeat what's already been written. already been written like i i and and i think people will listen to you that might not grab a book on holiness written by yeah the first thing that came to mind is something like carl carl truman i just his book sit right here i'm like i don't even know like but like somebody that's like yeah a good scholar you know a good good good voice but like uh the people that are going to read a book on holiness by carl truman

again i don't mean this at all in a negative way are going to be people who follow carl truman carl truman and actually want to know about holiness but i imagine your book's going to reach a much broader audience um perhaps which is which is exciting to me um because the book is is inspired by many a lot of dead people you know like you got tozer you have sproll uh stephen charnock uh arthur pink like moses like the the book is inspired by ancient sources for the most part, or just old thought thinkers, C.S. Lewis even. And so it's cool to be able to kind of modernize their perspectives and deliver it in such a way that I think is still winsome and compelling. But it's an old truth that I'm just delivering in a new way. You read all those old school, the Charnock. I never read him, but man, that's.

Oh, Charnock. I probably cited him. Not the most, but almost the most because his, what, what is it called? I have to look at it. Yeah. The existence and attributes of God. It was written like the 1800s, but it's his, his perspectives on the justice of God and the holiness of God and the goodness of God. He has, he has whole volumes on each attribute. And I don't know if it's because they didn't have cell phones or what, but I feel like the thoughtfulness and insight that he brings to the discussions about the person of god are special would you rate him like one of the top best books on holiness

that you read during the last couple years it's not even on holiness it's about but as far as the person of god absolutely really yeah absolutely like it Absolutely. Like, it's a, yeah, I just think everybody should have it in their library. You know? A.W. Pink, that dude's crazy, man. I mean. He's interesting. I read his, oh, what's the, what's it on holiness? I don't think.

Oh, the sovereignty of God? Is that? Yeah. it wasn't on holiness i don't think it was on oh the sovereignty of god is that is that yeah i can't say i spent a ton of time with his his his stuff that dude's like a 10 point calvinist oh i didn't know there were extra numbers that's terrifying actually to know what what additional issues we might have i heard that he had my listeners fact check meed me on this, Google it or whatever, but somebody told me a year ago that he had some kind of,

almost like a mental breakdown because his view on God was so like, or he had such a real specific and narrow doctrine on every little point and he just couldn't find anybody else who would agree on him on everything and didn't find, in a sense, it was almost like,

I don't know if he's a hermit or whatever about the end and just didn't, didn't end well because he just was so hardcore on every little kind of doctrinal point, which I read, reading this book early on in my life. I was like, yeah, I mean, it was pretty hardcore, but. That's fascinating. Yeah. Which speaks to, you know, how God has revealed himself. So he is to a certain degree knowable, but there are things that are unknowable. And so I think trying to be so theologically rigid at times can keep us from just the beauty of mystery. Like there's there's some mystery that we should be OK with.

Right, right, right. He is transcendent after all. He exists in three persons. That stuff is weird. I'm constantly trying to connect cultural progress or movements with how we analyze or think about God and theology and everything. And I wonder if our information age,

where everything is a Google away, where we have access to any instant knowledge fact or whatever i wonder if that creates a bit of a reluctance to even say what you said that hey there's things about god unknowable can't can't google it it's out there yeah we gotta and we gotta be okay with that like that that's disturbing i in my own heart i'm like wait i want to know a fact. Where's my phone? I need to know it now. There's just that, you know what I mean?

That need to have information at your fingertips. But with God, it just doesn't work that way. His wisdom is unsearchable. It's unsearchable. And that's a good thing. Because it would actually scare me if me as a finite human being could fully understand and explain God. That would mean I can get a hold of him. I don't want a God that I can fully get a hold of. He's not big enough if that's the case. So I'm going to just take, he's giving me his word. He's giving

me a lot to work with, a whole lot, but there's a lot of stuff he's he's worshipped by angels that look like humans and animals at the same time that's weird he exists and three yet they are one god expressing themselves in three distinct persons that doesn't you can use all these metaphors of ice and water. Those don't make that. You get what I'm saying? So it's like at the end of the day, there are parts of God that it just, it will take an eternity for us to figure out.

And I think that that's a really good thing. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Well, that's Job, right? Did you spend some time in Job in your book? With the suffering portion, yeah. Because I mean, anytime you start to address that God is always good, you have to answer the question of then why is there so much bad? So yeah, I sat there for a second, not too long. chapters where it's like job spends the whole book right demanding i mean you've kind of put up been

put up to it with his friends but i mean demanding an answer like i'm not why is all this that's that's still a question of suffering but god's response is crazy who are you where were you when i laid the foundation like you don't it is i mean it's so like again counterintuitive countercultural really like i'm god you're not i don't have to explain i can't you couldn't i almost quoted jack nicholson you can't handle the truth right you you couldn't handle if i actually gave you the answer you're begging me for you would you would not be able to understand that um that's true yeah it's totally his There's another theologian that I think, is that the Barth guy who spent a lot of time on God being knowable and unknowable and all this

thing. And it's just like, yeah, there is God. He has the right and the freedom to reveal himself however and whenever he chooses. You know day hey yeah i'm gonna be a in a pillar of cloud now oh it's nighttime pillar of fire oh uh moses you want to see me now you're not gonna see me you're gonna see my back go and get in that rock you know oh yeah and then i'm gonna incarnate and become a man it's just it's a lot's a lot there. Well, I hope people pick up the book and engage it holier than thou. Yeah. Can't wait for my copy in the mail whenever it gets here. It's a coming. It's a coming. Let's shift gears a little bit. Here's a question I've been wanting to ask you. I'm going to get a little personal here. You have a lot of fans, people that really love your stuff,

and you're active on social media. There's probably a lot of people that would give anything to spend time with you, to hang out with you. How do you – because i know you're more of an introvert like i am how do you handle that just that even that knowledge you post something on instagram and i don't i don't tens of thousands of people were like this is awesome you know and like commenting and like does that stress stress you out? Are you used to it? Is it, how do you, how do you handle, how do you manage that? I think all of that. One, I'm used to it a little bit because I became a Christian at 19. I put out my first poem at 20 and the poem went mini viral.

And so it was kind of like since the beginning of my Christian walk, I've had a different measures of platform and I'm grateful that God kind of extended it slowly. And, and so it just wasn't like, I think now cats, you know, TikTok, they just blow up immediately. And I just don't know how my heart would have been able to handle that. Um, so there's, there's a level of, I'm used to it. And then there's a pressure, uh, this fear because I know myself, it's like, yeah, I do have good things to say. And I am grateful, um, that it inspires people and edifies you. But it's also like, I can't live up to whatever weight you might be putting on me, you know? And then it's like, you might be putting on me, you know?

And then it's like, I'm encouraged. It's like, man, like I'm only 32, you know? The Lord is using me for however long he wants to use me in this way. That's a privilege. And I don't despise it. Do you have to just shut down like phone computer whatever like at night or weekends whatever or uh yeah yeah i definitely i don't have notifications on my phone that would be insane my my uh twitter instagram and tiktok apps are not on my front page of my phone and so

i have to like go through a lot of work to access them, which really, it really does retrain your brain to not click on it as soon as you open up your phone. And then I've just, I'm seeing how, how important it is to withdraw. And I say that because there's this passage, I don't know where it is. This is one of the gospels where it says, with Jesus, as the report of him grew, he would withdraw to

desolate places and pray. And that's like, wow, that's how Jesus handled fame, if you will. Popularity is that he did not continue to put himself out there, but he would actually go to quiet places to be with God. And so I think that's one thing that I've been trying to put into practice is how do I practice? Like, I'm not going to go to a desert. I got kids. But how can I withdraw, get with the Father so that when I do enter back into the world, I'm much more useful? Because it's not about me at that point. It's about the Lord. Do you have a good, like, embodied community, like a local group of people that, you know, where you recharge and stuff? I wish I did. Yeah, I wish I did.

which I did. No, I do have people, because I've moved a lot, but I do have people that I can talk to and that I do talk to that are wiser and older than me, but they live in different cities. The hard part with where we are now is that when we moved to Atlanta, we just had to try to get acclimated into this new church. And we were so busy that it was just hard to build that community. into this new church and we were so busy that it was just hard to build that community but it was also weird because it's hard to fight past preconceived notions about who you are you know um and then the pandemic happened and the church was gone it's just like it's it's something that i i want and that i pray for um yeah that it's just hard to get. It's going to be hard too, given who you are. Oh, yeah.

Can you go to a place where people don't know who you are and you're just Jackie? You're not Jackie Hill Perry, you're just Jackie. In secular spaces, yes. Christian spaces, there is always the possibility of that. But one thing I learned from my pastor in Chicago that I really leaned into, he was like, it's your job to humanize yourself. You cannot depend on other people

to not treat you according to what they've seen. And so the tendency or the temptation is to isolate and say, oh, everybody just sees me through this lens. And it's like, yeah, so be hospitable, invite them over your house so they see you in real life so they can be up close. And it's doing the work of pushing close to people and trying to create a sense of intimacy

that tears those kinds of walls down. Now, as an introvert, that's terrifying. But as a Christian, I know that that's the necessary thing I need to do because it's not healthy for anybody to be alone, especially people with a platform. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Was that Charlie? You said your pastor in Chicago? No, my pastor, Brian Dye.

I went to a church called Legacy in Chicago. It was a house church. So community was very easy there. Oh, house church. Chicago. It was a house church. So community was very easy there. Oh, house church. Yeah. It was, uh, maybe max 18 of us. And then, uh, it was a community of house churches. And once a month we would come together and it would be maybe about 250

people, but in general, it was just such a close knit situation. It was, it was beautiful. Is that your, your preferred ecclesiology uh it's a weird way of putting it obviously we're both geeky theologians but um or is it just what you did i think it's pros and cons yeah i think it's pros and cons i think i i think it's it's it can be very uncomfortable uh but the reason it was uncomfortable is the reason i liked it is because you cannot hide you cannot hide in a living room with 15 people you know like they they they know you and they see when you walk in the living room and you're down they see it and

i remember i would come to church and i would you know have a mood or something be going on and they would see it and say jackie what's going on you want to talk about it you know larger churches you can sit in the back and leave and nobody knows that you're depressed and so but they also typically have more order it's more of a structured environment and so it's pros and cons to both are you at. Are you at a bigger church now? I am. I'm at Cornerstone in Atlanta led by John Johno. It's not bigger to people in Texas, but it's big to me because it's like 300, 400 people every Sunday.

And it's like, this is a mega church. Oh, that seems pretty small to me. Yeah, that's big to me. That's too many people. That's a lot of people to try to get to know. That's such an introvert thing to say. It is. It's overwhelming.

It's just like, oh my gosh, all of you here all at the same time. I find, yeah, I've had a hard time. We've done big churches, medium churches, small churches. We're at a decent size church. Well, yeah, a couple of thousands. So a lot bigger than yours, but I found, you know, bigger churches, they have to have like small groups and that's how you get involved in stuff. I just, I know I'm not supposed to say this, but I just never really, I don't know, resonated with small groups, not, not small groups of people,

but small groups, like as a church kind of thing. I just have, I don't know, resonated with small groups. Not small groups of people, but small groups, like as a church kind of thing. I just have, I don't know, in my own experience, just never, I feel like I was always kind of pouring out more and wasn't, I don't know. I haven't experienced them enough here. And I'm sure it's different at different churches. here and it and i'm sure it's different at different churches i think also the life stage i'm in is so unique where it's like bro like i i have three little kids and some of these small groups are just kind of with just a bunch of single women you know who have the freedom to just kind of come and go and it's just just like, I'm, even when I come, I'm super distracted because I have to wrangle my children and it's not a

mixed gender one. So it's like, I don't have him. So it's just like, it makes it, it makes it so much harder to actually engage, uh, when the environment itself isn't acclimated to the life stage that you're in currently at the moment. So, and I'm not complaining. I'm just saying, it's just saying it's just it's not as clean cut well that's where that's where people would say well man those you shouldn't be on your own with your kids like people should jump in and and help out but that that can't come from you like that needs to be somebody else being aware of like hey girl i met the other sunday new friend holding my baby yeah it was yeah yeah i don't know uh that's tough

that's tough um seminary you're still in seminary yeah how's that i am i took a i took a break for the summer okay um it is it is uh how do you it's good i just really enjoy learning i i really enjoy it it's what i don't like however is exams and and and papers and stuff i don't i wish i could just learn without having to like test it but in general like i've i've pretty much decided i want to i want to go as far as phd if the lord allows it yeah just because it what it does for my heart and it's clarified some of my ideas it's made me more precise in my thinking and even communication of stuff um it's broadened my horizons to even the particulars of certain arguments and stuff like that. And I just, I just enjoy it. And so it's, it's difficult, but.

You're at, is it RTS? Yeah. Reformed Theological Seminary in Atlanta. Oh, in, oh, oh, so it's you actually, you know, it's not online. Like you go to class. Yeah. If it was online, I wouldn't't do it because i would be distracted by like emails and life and text messages like being local it's just it's kind of like keeps me accountable to have to go to a classroom and sit and it's just better you get to like learn from your classmates you know i guess another personal question is it hard being jackie hill perry with other people who everybody knows who you are? Like, is it, do you feel like you're treated differently or do you not pay attention?

No. And I'm in a, uh, most of my classes are all white men. So their wives are the, the ones that are probably, that would be more awkward. They, they don't even, they just say hi to me and they kind of keep them moving. They don't really talk to me like that. Wait, so is your fan base largely female? Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah, well, analytically on Instagram, it's 85% female.

Really? Yeah. I wonder what my, I never, because I don't know how to do, I hardly even know what analytics means. Like, I'd be curious, I'd be really curious about both the theological background the yeah it's sex of my back the age ethnicity i'd be really curious is that you can find that out or is that just that's just like your social media followers yeah ask one of your kids no it's like in the settings and you can you Insights. And you can see the age group, the highest, like the regions, the most popular regions that follow you, countries, the time of day

your people are most likely to interact with your content. It's actually really helpful. Wait, is this just Instagram? This is just Instagram. I can't speak for, you speak for podcasts or Twitter or Facebook. So I can tell you right now that my Instagram fan base is going to be very similar to yours. Because every now and then, I'll look at my followers and I'm like, how did I get 2,000 followers? Then I'll go over to Jackie Hills and sure enough, you mentioned my name.

So I think at least 90% of my instagram followers have come from you so i promote preston sprinkles so much is you would think you were paying me i'm not even playing whenever my publisher says hey we saw a spike in sales i'm like yeah jackie probably mentioned the book or something that's funny i am i amon. I did an interview with a station in London, and they asked me about the transgender question. And I pulled up Sam Alberry's book and your book. I said, these are people who have done the work. Jackie has not done the work.

Follow them. Go on their Amazon. Buy their books. Give them money so they can make their advance back. Okay? Oh, yeah. I saw you were over in London. Did you just get back? Yeah, I got back Sunday night. Is it open or what was it like

being in the UK? It's open as in you don't have to wear a mask, but people who are out of the international arrivals are supposed to quarantine for 10 days of unarrival i did not do that i was there for four days even if you've been vaccinated yeah because they don't i guess accept like u.s vaccines even though pfizer and moderna isn't? Yeah, it's an interesting thing.

Don't do what I did because you might get fined. I just was kind of like, Lord, you know I got to go home. So I was all right. They didn't fine me. I've spent... We've traveled... I've traveled quite a bit this last year compared

to most people, I think. Even as a family, we've traveled a few times i have spent so much money on covid tests it's it's unreal i don't even want to add it up because it's like we we were in um i was on sabbatical and part of my sabbatical was in alaska so we're walking through the airport they will not let you at the time this is last year they were like all right you need a covid test here's the testing center 250 a pop i got four kids i dropped 1500 on covid tests and and then come to find out later it was like or you can quarantine i'm like man i don't want to quarantine for 14 days but once we got to our place literally they were like no but it's they just say that the airport probably to get people to pay for COVID tests,

but no one's checking in. I was a good citizen. I've been very COVID conscious doing everything I'm supposed to do. But, man, it's been expensive being a good citizen. That's an investment. Yeah, I usually just go to Walgreens or CVS because their tests are free. But they're not usually like, you know, you can't get like a rapid test. You have to wait like 24 hours for a result, but.

Well, see that makes me, so how come they, they set up shop in the airport so you have no choice. I didn't need it. Like I got my results, my results came like four days later. It wasn't like they gave me my results then. Oh, no, that's, that's, that makes me mad. I'm going to email somebody. I'm sorry. I'm thinking you're getting it within an hour. That's why you're paying such a high price. We were in Kenya and Tanzania last month and going from the Kenya border to crossing over to Tanzania. You had to have a covid test to get to, you know, for the border.

When we got there, I showed them the form, you know, hey, I paid my, I think it was like 80 bucks. And they're like, oh, yeah, but you need to do another one here. I'm like, what do you need? I got it right here. I'm like, well, we can't get through until you do another one here. It was 25 bucks. I'm like, oh, it's under 25.

Gosh. So, but they got the results back in like six minutes oh yeah it was so quick i'm like wait a minute you're telling me that the the you guys in tanzania are way more like apparently in america it takes me like three days to get back and it costs 250 dollars to get a test in the airport i'm like you guys got like something going on here but anyway i'm sorry you gotta you gotta you need a savings account just for covid test call your uh your account and see if it's a write-off yeah actually yeah anyway um uh are you thinking about are you allowed to say publicly if you're thinking about another book yet because you spaced out your first two pretty, pretty broadly.

Yeah. Not even on purpose. Um, cause the, I had the Bible, the Jude Bible study in between both and a baby. And so that's part of it. Yeah. I have an idea for a book in my mind. Um, and I'll just say the idea cause it might not come to fruition for a couple of years. I really want to do a book about faith. Like it's just, it's just a, it's just another concept that I think is really important to the Christian that I don't know if we fully understand or grapple with. There's so many questions around it. Like faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. What does that mean? Really? Yeah. Like, like, like let's explore that. God says, uh, those, if, what is it? Uh, you cannot please God if you don't have faith. Ah, that's heavy.

So that means I need to know when I actually am functioning in faith and when it's just unbelief or deception or delusion or whatever. And so, yeah, I just really want to explore that, especially in a culture of deconstructing our faith. What are healthy ways or bad ways to do that? What does it mean to do that? What is doubt? What is doubt's place in the Christian's life? I just have a lot of questions. The doubt one is tricky because I'm very, I resonate with people that are honest, right? With their questions that even doubt or whatever you read the Psalms.

It's like, there's doubt everywhere. Lamentations is a book, a book on doubt, but then you have James getting on us for doubting, you know, or wavering or double-minded like that. What do you, have you thought through that tension like i yeah where is it okay to doubt what does that even mean um yeah because i i wonder i've always wondered really if there is a distinction between doubt and unbelief where um abraham or what who was it was it abraham when they they came to him and said, Hey, next year, this time you're going to have a son. And he asked the question, how is, how will this be?

But he wasn't reprimanded for his question, you know? And so I wonder, is that, is that just a, is that a healthy doubt to say, I just don't know how this will happen. Can you explain more to say, I just don't know how this will happen. Can you explain more? Versus Sarah, who they come and do the same thing. And she's like, yeah, right. And she's, you know, like, it's like, it's two different experiences. But these are really extreme measures that they're being called to trust in.

And so why wouldn't they have questions? We're old. My ovaries are gone. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're not gone, but they're, they're prunish at that point.

I love it. I love what they tell her too. Like, well, you, why'd you laugh? Like I didn't laugh. Oh,

but you did laugh. But you did. The text literally says, but you did. I heard you laugh. Don't you lie to me now. You definitely did. We could judge you for that,

but we're being merciful because we need Isaac to come up in here. So I don't know. But I think it would be life-giving for Christians to identify the place that doubt could or should have in our journey with God so that we don, become overly anxious or even depressed at our experiences of being human. And I think it's hard for me because I like genuine belief can't be forced. So like if my kids come to me and say, Hey, I don't, I'm not, I'm not kind of, I'm kind of doubting Christianity. I can't say, well, stop it. Don't, you know, or, or if they're like, Hey, I got questions. Like, how do we know the Bible's true? I'm not kind of, I'm kind of doubting Christianity. I can't say, well, stop it. Don't, you know, or, or if they're like, Hey, I got questions. Like, how do we know the Bible is true? I'm not sure. It doesn't feel like this passage is like legit.

Like one of my daughters came to me the other day, I've asked about the conquest. She's like, I don't really killing soldiers. I get, but women and children and babies, like, I just, I don't, that doesn't sit right with me. Like, do I say, you know, stop it and just believe me? Like, well, that's not, even if she obeyed me in that't, that doesn't sit right with me. Like, do I say, you know, stop it and just believe it? Like, well, that's not, even if she obeyed me in that moment, that's not genuine belief. So I'm like, no, yeah, that's a great question.

Go ahead and doubt whether you think, but maybe that's not the kind of doubt that the Bible's talking about. And James, is it James 1? Yeah, a double-minded man, he's on his table all his ways. And even praying, you know, praying with faith. What does that mean? I think I know what it

means because I've done it. But there are also times where I am still very reluctant that my prayer will be answered but I'm doing it anyway because it's the right thing to do. Is that a waste of time? Is that vain? Should I just not pray? I don't know. And sometimes when I give the qualification, like if it's your will, like Lord heal. So this is actually a real story. I was born deaf in my left ear. And I was raised very non

anti-charismatic, John MacArthur circles. so never even considered, like, you know. But I've grown out of that environment, and I'm trying to be more charismatic. So, yeah, I've gone for healing a few times, you know. The last one was a few years ago. A preacher said, if anybody needs healing, come, and I'll pray for you. And so I went forward. And I feel, I think I was genuinely like, God, if it's, I think you, I believe you can do this. Yeah.

And I'm going forward because I'm open to the possibility of you actually healing my deaf ear. And yet I don't, my faith isn't going to, I'm not going to doubt your existence if you don't heal. You don't need to heal me either. I'm okay with that. But some people would say, well, no, you shouldn't even leave. You should pray, go forward, believing 100% He will heal you. I just have a problem with that kind of confidence when it comes to God, I guess. I don't know.

Am I off? What do you think? I agree. I think there's a level of certainty that we should have, but not necessarily on what God will do, but what he can do. Right. You know, like I can't force God's hand. And so, oh, God, I know you can heal me. I you're God. But if you don't, what I'm also believing, believing you for is that you could also give me a heart of contentment you know like a heart of gratefulness in the meantime and so i'm there's still some faith there that's not unbelief but it also it opens my arms up to say whatever god allows

he allows and that's a good thing yeah yeah and that's that's i think that's the right posture but some people would say no once you leave the door open to he might not, then you're not truly believing. I'm like, I don't know. Yeah. I think that's then trusting our faith. Yeah. Like trusting in our prayer of faith to force God into action.

Is that faith really? Or is that control? I don't know. So for the record, y'all, Jackie Hill agrees with me. So y'all can take a hike. Before I let you go,

you've got a few more minutes. I have to ask a question. Are you done or tired of talking about sexuality? I mean, that's, you know, obviously your first book or do you still, is that a main, is that,

is that something when people ask you to speak, which I do all the the time is that still the main thing people want you to talk on or it's not the main thing it's still a thing though um yeah i still enjoy it i think if i think i have some insecurities though just because there's so many other things on my plate that yeah i don't feel like i often have the time to re-educate myself or even be aware of just some of the new arguments or new ideas or new approaches to it. And so sometimes I feel like, man, there are people who I think are more equipped right now for this conversation than me, somebody who's been only spending two years to talk about or study God's holiness, you know? But it is, it's, it's, it's just a continually fascinating conversation to me. It really is just the sexuality and the human body and the mind and our affections and how

that relates to the different things our culture believes about ourselves and each other and love and rights. And even just recently having a lot of friends kind of distance themselves from me in light of, you know, them choosing a different path and just wrestling with that. Like, oh, wow. Like I'm going through what I've counseled people with. Like that's an interesting place. So what's, what's, can you drill down a little deeper? What's fascinating to you about those questions? Like the fact that people are asking them or that they're more complex than...

That is very complicated. It's not extremely black and white. I think that's what's fascinating. fascinating and just how, I guess, human it is to feel and to love and want relationship, but also to say, man, but I have this Christian framework that speaks to the deceptiveness of our feelings and how motivated they really are by a nature that is darkened, They really are by a nature that is darkened, but also the refusal of the culture to even consider that that's a possibility. You know, that like how I feel, though valid or a true experience, that that somehow shouldn't be explored and loved. But it's like, man, there's so many other experiences that we recognize, though it's a real one. So for example, we don't debate or argue with the husband who honors his wife by denying and resisting and putting to death whatever desire he might have for a woman who is not his wife. We

don't argue with that. We see beauty and righteousness and love in that. But when we apply that to our individual selves and how we should relate to God and say, no, he is our husband. He is the primary love for which we should submit ourselves. Then it's homophobic. Then it's problematic. And so I guess i wonder why it's so hard to see the connection between self-denial and love for god wow that's good i don't know if that makes sense no no it doesn't me um i've just i've seen such a obviously everything's so much more polarized over the last couple years years, politics, church, COVID. I mean, so many things. And I feel like the sexuality conversations,

I'm getting more and more emails, for instance, from like parents with a gay or lesbian or trans kids where the kid is like, if you don't like affirm and like agree with me and affirm everything, then you are toxic and you're of no business in my life. Like, that real, not we can agree to disagree or I know you still love me even though we really disagree on this. And really good, like, good, from what I can tell, like, good loving relationships. But I've seen such an increase of just that binary.

Like, if you don't toe the line on everything within my kind of tribalistic idea and it's all wrapped up in the politics all kinds of other things it is and it's sad like parents say what do i do i don't know yeah what do you do even as a parent now i'm like i feel this burden to build such a relationship of love, openness, and trust and room, space to feel how you feel and express that and may not force you to feel a different way. Because I just, I wonder how much of that has been consistent in the life of parent and child relationships so that when they do reach a certain age, there's a trust that your parent is wise, you know?

And so that you, so that you could say, Hey, this is how I'm feeling. I want your ideas, even if I disagree with them, you know, but we're also expecting teenagers to act like adults and that's just not, teenagers are really crazy. teenagers are really crazy. And they're going through such, so many difficulties today. I mean, just, especially through COVID and everything, the mental health issues and social media is, this is my, so I rarely, I rarely give dogmatic life advice. Okay. Love God, love others, read your Bible. You know, um, when it comes to parenting,

I'm really cautious. Here's one I will give to every single parent out there. Don't let your kids get on social media until they're 18. No, they've already done it. You can't take that away. That's what's done is done. You got to mitigate that. But I don't, I would not give my kid a loaded gun. I would not give them a, a pile of cocaine, and I wouldn't give them at 13 or 14 access to something that has been proven over and over and over again to be literally chemically addictive and destructive psychologically, mentally, spiritually. Why would I entrust that to a 14, 15, 13, 12-year-old kid? If your kids are 9, 10, 11, you can just have that rule, and it'll go fine.

It'll be a hard conversation for a little bit. It's hard for our kids a little bit, but life went on. I'm taking your advice. I'm doing it. And I'm on social media, but I'm an adult. I know how to turn it off. I'm mature enough to hold this loaded gun. That's a bad analogy.

But I'm mature enough to have the crack pipe and not smoke it too much. Right. And I have a lifetime of relating to people socially who are embodied in front of me. I know how to have a conversation face-to-face. Like their world, if they're on social media, that will be the primary way in which they form relationships. We don't know the sociological long-term effects of, of that. So I'm not going to experiment on my kids to anyway,

very passionate about this. I think that would prevent some of this, the difficulties down the road because where else are they getting a lot of this thinking, but. Yeah. It's really a psalms one one ethic to me you know blessed is the man who doesn't sit in the way of standing the way of sinners or sit in the seat of scoffers i think social media is a kind of communal mind renewing or altering space in a real way.

And so I totally agree, and I'm applying that. I don't care how mad they get. They'll be all right. One more question. I've always wanted to know this. Since you wrote Gay Girl, Good God, have you shifted your view on anything within the sexuality conversation? Obviously, your theological views haven't changed or whatever,

but is there kind of more finer nuances or even emphases or posture or whatever that you would say you kind of would disagree with yourself from five years ago or whatever? That's a great question. Um, I think I am much more gracious and understanding towards those who would identify as gay christian okay um and by gay christian i don't i don't know how the side a side b distinction but like those who live a biblical conservative sexual ethic but would say that they you know yeah it's they're being true to themselves i call themselves gay i think at a when i was writing gay girl with god and even before that i was super kind of hard on it in my heart where I was just like, it's confusing. It's this, it's that. And I still hold some of those convictions, but I think I'm just so

way more open to just like, yeah, okay. Do what you feel is best for for for you you know like i don't i don't i just think it's an unnecessary not unnecessary i just don't think it's a it's a heel to die on that's i think i think that's one thing that significantly changed for me and that's just by having conversations with those yeah who would identify as gay christians and hearing their their their perspectives you know they thought they thought through this. Yeah. They just haven't arbitrarily labeled themselves that just because. Yeah. And even that the group you're thinking of, yeah, I've got a lot of friends in that group. Even they would say, I rarely if ever would actually use that phrase. I am a gay, you know,

with just the term gay to describe the fact that they experienced ongoing same-sex temptations or however you want to word it. That would be a more conservative way of wording it. The term that I've felt that best names that experience, especially for younger people, is the term gay. I'm not investing. Obviously, if I'm committed to celibacy

out of allegiance to Jesus, my gayness is not on the throne of my life. That's insulting. No, Jesus is on the throne of your life. Have, come on. Like, that's insulting to know Jesus is on the throne of your life. Have you seen what the – You know what? I know we have to go. But you know a really fascinating thought that I've heard?

So Rebecca McLaughlin, she's written a ton of books. We were on a panel together, and we were talking about that. And she said what's interesting to her is that it seems as if those who tend to identify themselves as gay Christians are those who grew up in Christian context where they were never out to a certain degree. And she was like, versus people like you who were out and loud with your gayness. And so when you became a Christian, it was a hard cut off from that identity. I said, wow. That's really profound to think about.

And so I think there's something with that. That is almost across the board. You think of like, yeah, you, Chris Yuan, Butterfield. For them, the term gay is wrapped up in all kinds of stuff that they're no business carrying over to their post-Christian life.

But for other people who don't have the baggage, and I don't know what to make of that, but I've thought about that. It's not across the board, but it's pretty widespread. Jackie, thanks so much for being on Theology and Raw. Again, the book is Holier Than Thou. Pick it up

or pre-order it wherever books are sold. Really enjoyed the conversation, Jackie always thank you thank you mr or dr sprinkle you