Theology in the Raw - S8 Ep892: I Think I Might Be a Christian Anarchist!? Jay Newman

Episode Date: August 12, 2021

What is Christian Anarchy? I sat down with my good friend, fellow Dodger’s fan, and BBQ expert Jay Newman to talk about this. He’s not only persuaded by Christian anarchy, but he’s convinced that I’m one too. We dive deep into the basics of Christian anarchy and how Christians should posture themselves in light of partisan politics and the government as a whole.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I've got a few events coming up that you might want to know about. First of all, October 7th, I will be in Plano, Texas for the Revoice Pre-Conference doing a few-hour talk on an introduction to the transgender conversation. And then on October 20th and 21st in Boise, our faith, sexuality, and gender conference in Boise, Idaho, October 20th through the 21st. You can fly out to Boise, or if you're in Boise, just drive out to the location, or it will be live streamed. This is the first time we're ever live streaming one of these conferences, so check out all the details at centerforfaith.com. Go to the events page, and that should take you right to those events. Also, save the date, 2022, March 31st through April 2nd, our first ever Theology in the Raw

conference. We are going to discuss race, sexuality, gender, politics, hell, the environment, and many other things related to the gospel as the gospel intersects our cultural moment. It's going to be amazing. So save that date. We'll have details further down the road about the first ever Theology in the Rock Conference in 2022. All right. My guest today is a good friend of mine, Jay Newman. We go way back. We didn't even talk about how we got to know each other. I guess it doesn't really matter. But Jay has been a good friend over the years. He used to help run a Christian music festival called Audio Feed. And he first invited

me to come out and speak at that music festival. This is coming up almost 10 years ago. And we've been friends ever since. Jay is, uh, what, what is it? Well, Jay's job is he, he, uh, he works at a barbecue joint in, in East Nashville. Um, but I won't say, but I'm gonna say, and he has an incredible, uh, mind. Um, he is not a pastor. He's not a writer. He's not like a theologian, but the dude has, he just has a very, just a lot of natural intelligence and an uncanny ability to kind of just think through tough issues. And so I love talking to Jay about everything. He'll have opinions about lots of things and he usually has, usually Jay, usually not always, but he usually has some really good thoughts on him. So in this episode, we talk about, mostly we talk about Christian anarchy

and what that is and what it isn't. And that obviously will spill over into politics. This episode's raw. It's real. It's honest. It has some edges that might need to be shaved off. So I hope you will listen to it for what it is. And yeah, hope it challenges you to think more deeply about your own faith and your position in relation to the governing authorities. So let's welcome back to the show with my good friend Jay Newman. Jay, thanks for coming on Theology in Iran. Here we are. We'll see how this goes.

See if your internet holds up. um so we i want to talk about christian anarchy i know this is something you've been studying for a while you got some thoughts on it and uh you you gotta i i trust your analysis of of stuff so that's that's why i'm excited to have you on because some people i don't know i just don know. I feel like I need to like, you know, did that person really say that? Is that what that book says? But I feel like you got a good take on things, which is why I actually want to start. Why don't we just start with some basics? What is Christian anarchy and what is it not? I would assume that there are more misunderstandings about what Christian anarchy is than probably any other kind of discipline.

Would you agree with that? And when you hear people describe what they think Christian anarchy is, are you typically like, man, that's just not what it is? Well, so I'll give you, you know, I like narrative. So I'll tell you a story. I like narrative. So I'll tell you a story. Um, my French cousin, um, several years ago, we were talking about politics or whatever. And I think I was probably advocating for some libertarian or something like that. And so he said, have you read Jackie Lul? And my cousin is French. Um, well, he's dual citizen, but he lives in France now too, and was born there. But I'm like, Oh, he's a Francophile. Okay. Who's this French guy or whatever. And so then I'm like,

Oh, Christian anarchy. And just the word anarchy, you almost immediately dismiss it. Right. Um, because you just think of like rebellion and chaos and like, that's too far. That's too, you know, and you won't, most people have already made up their mind that, well, we can't live in anarchy, you know? Um, and so I didn't really, it was on my radar for a long time, but I didn't really dive into it. And I think in the last year of political turmoil is probably when I've kind of dug in deeper. And so I was telling a group of friends that over lunch had about eight guys and they got to talking about politics.

And then January 6th comes up and I'm like, yeah, I think I'm now committed Christian anarchist. And like the table fell silent. And then they're all they're all older than me. And they're like, well, I remember when I was young, you know, I had leanings, you know, punk rock and anarchy. Like, no, that's not what this is. And like they just couldn't hear it. They could not hear it out. And one guy actually followed up with me and we're actually talking about it because he started telling me all these things.

I'm like every every objection he had. Every objection, I'm like, that's not what Christian anarchy is. That's not what Christian anarchy is. So there there's immediately this misconception. misconception. And so I think maybe the first, well, I think there's two points to consider before anyone who's listening dismisses the idea out of hand. One is the meaning of the word anarchy. And, you know, language is fluid. So it's acquired all this meaning that just the root, I mean, and you're the Greek scholar here. I mean, it just means without ruler, you know, not being ruled. Wait, wait, without ruler, not without ruler. Right, without ruler.

Yeah. Right, right. Without a ruler. And so, you know, the hashtag that I've been using on Twitter when I try to make my case in less than 280 characters is hashtag no king but Christ. And so that's that's the essence of Christian anarchy. It's not no ruler. It's anarchy toward political systems of the world. But you do have one ruler and that's why anarchists. And so that's the other point that you need to consider is that true hardcore anarchists hate Christian anarchists because they think they're giving them a bad name because they don't consider that true anarchy.

They legitimately want no rules and no rulers and just everyone do as everyone pleases. That is not Christian anarchy at all. It is living under the lordship of only one and not conflicting that with any, any other king or lordship or dominion. So when, when you realize that, then you're kind of like, if you're a Christian, you're kind of like, oh, I believe that. I think I believe that. And so it's like, OK, there's the door. Let's keep let's let's see. And so what I would suggest to you, Preston, is that you already are a Christian anarchist.

Based on everything that I know about what you think the church's role is towards the state. And based on, you know, the reason we're talking about this, cause you put a tweet out and I'm like, that's Christian anarchism, you know? And it's like, that's what it is. The live, live like the exiles in Babylon, you know, that's, that's basically it. Um. It's oversimplifying the idea, but I mean, that's it. So how, no king but Christ, but how does a Christian anarchist relate to or view the human ruler that is ruling over Babylon that they happen to be exiled into. And the laws of the land and the Romans 13. I mean, you know where I'm going with all this. Yeah. Well, I mean, those are the objections people have. So it's the exiles in Babylon is pretty much the template.

It's like, no, you be a good citizen. Okay. You don't stir things up but you know in your heart they don't rule you you have not given them consent to rule your heart um and you know i i think of the andy dufresne from uh shawshank redemption you know he's like they they can't imprison what's in here and points to his chest, you know? And it's like, they, they can do all this stuff, but they don't have me. They don't own me, you know? And, um, and in his mind, he's always going to be free from that place eventually.

Um, and that's, that's, I think what the Christian anarchist relationship towards the state is. I'm not trying to upset your system. I just know it's not going to last. So I'm not loyal to it. So far, so good. I could check all those boxes. So I'm going to try to work my way out of being a Christian anarchist. I've been called a lot of things in the podcast.

I've been called a lesbian before. So, yeah, Christian anarchist. I've been called a lot of things in the podcast. I've been called a lesbian before. Yeah, Christian anarchism. How is that possible? No, it was... Did you listen to that episode? No, I missed it. Okay, it was a trans man. Scott Nugent was on.

So a trans man. So he transitioned at 42 from female to male. And so before that, Scott was a lesbian married to another woman. And so I was interviewing him with my hat. I think it was the hat on backwards. I don't know. I came out of nowhere. It's like, man, look at you. You look like a lesbian with your hat on back when he's totally serious. You know, I'm like, wait, this is a lesbian look but i'm sure you handled it better than i would have oh no no no it was it was in jest it was it was hilarious

actually um i so okay so the laws of the land um speed limits um drinking age pay your taxes these are things that we... Because I'm just thinking of Romans 13. My understanding of Romans 13 is, hey, because God is your ruler, yeah, obey these laws. If they conflict in any way with your Christian allegiance, you're not under that authority. You're under God's authority. But yeah, be a good citizen. Obey these laws.

Don't revolt. I think that's the main thrust behind Romans 13. Let's not pursue some kind of revolution of Rome as Christians. Let's live quiet lives, put our heads down, know where our king is, and be good citizens. I think one of the I think the whole... One of the points of the Book of Acts is to show that... I think this is Cavanro, right? That the Christian movement was usurping the values of Rome without breaking any laws.

They were good citizens. Every time they tried to say, you're doing something illegal, they beat them. They do all these things like, hey, name one law we've broken. We haven't done anything wrong. And yet they're preaching another king named christ you know and so that's that's one objection a lot of people have is that well how are we gonna we as a

christian we should care about these issues in society and we need an entity like government to deal with them because they're just too big. And I point to the book of Acts. I'm like, no, you don't have to defer to the state to solve these issues. You know, you can live as the community of Christ in this world. And it inherently over time will upend the systems of power in this world. Just like the world was turned upside down, as X said, and Kevin Bowie's title of his book. So it's like we don't have to, and this is the saddest part to me, is that we have been

conditioned for many generations to think the only way we can do what Christ wants is if we outsource our power to the state. And that's just a massive lie. And we've done it for so, so long that that's why we have this Christian nationalism problem. We can't separate them in our minds because we think the only way to be obedient to Christ is to be obedient to the state and give our power to them. And it's like, no, these are conflicting powers. They're not compatible. To the degree that you give your power to the state, you do not live in the power of the spirit. What do you mean give your power to the state? By investing your energies in the state's attempt to fight

injustice is that something yeah well you let them dictate the the terms of those things you know um and so i mean a lot of that is like and this this is where okay so here's where i'm going to lose some people that we vote we've been told that voting, as Christians, we should vote for people who are going to accomplish through government what we think Christ wants done in the world. Well, that's practical blasphemy. You know, I mean, that was never what he said. And there's not a single reference where you can, God always worked from underneath, you know, he, he used his people to infiltrate and, and, and even the, the, the one story we have where they say, we want a King. And he said, no,

you don't need a King. You got me. And it didn't end well. And so where I lose people is saying, and I'm still kind of on the fence about this. I'm not totally hardcore about it, but I'm currently under the impression that it might be a sin to vote. You're going to lose some people there. You're going to lose, but gain. I feel like within my audience, I see both sides. People that are pro-voting and then people that are – same thing.

They're not just indifferent. They're like, I think it's actually wrong to vote. So I've got a whole spectrum of people listening. You're not saying – because I can hear people say, well, yeah, Christians in the first century or throughout the scriptures, they didn't have the opportunity to vote. They weren't living in the kind of legislative kind. What am I trying to say? Their government system wasn't like ours. They didn't have the opportunity to, you know, it wasn't a democracy. So it's like it's an indirect

parallel. It's an indirect parallel. Well, that's the brilliant move of the powers that be, that they have gotten the people of God to conflate their power by thinking they have a voice in the government. We don't have a voice in what the government does. We don't have a voice in what the government does. We think we do. And so we give our allegiance to it more easily because we think we're a part of it. But has it ever been government for the people by the people? I I think it's like this really brilliant plan to make people feel like they're involved with the state. Like this is this is the difference in, say, the American church versus Constantine. Constantine legalized Christianity.

Holy Roman Emperor he conflated church and state and all of these had disastrous results but this one is more sneaky we willingly are doing it thinking we are

in charge but the state is fundamentally more powerful than any human individual's interests. And it cannot know there is no state that is not antithetical to the kingdom of God on Earth. They don't work together. Now, that doesn't mean God won't use the state to accomplish his ends, which he says he will do in many places. But they cannot be conflated without one losing itself to the other. And it's always the church losing itself to the state.

Always goes that way. I don't disagree. I don't know enough to fully agree. I resonate with what you're saying based on just how I view church and state and being more of an anti-nationalist Christian and seeing the destructive nature of particularly the branch of Christianity that tries to wed itself to the state consciously or unconsciously and all that stuff. So the pushback that I have gotten, which is, I think, good, it goes along the lines of something Martin Luther King said many years ago.

He said, because he was dealing with the same thing. Christian saying, you can't legislate people's hearts. You can't change, you got to change people's hearts. He goes, I agree. You can't legislate their hearts, but I can legislate people to stop lynching me. And I think that's pretty important, too. So the pushback I get comes from particularly people of color or people who are lower on the socioeconomic rung to say, you have the privilege to be kind of indifferent or not care about these things.

But that state is not just that I don't invest my energies in the state. The state is oppressing me. And so I need to stop them from oppressing me. And that comes partly through legislation. These unjust laws, this unjust system is actually hurting me, whereas you're immune to it. So I'm not indifferent. Like I actually want to stop as best I can some of the injustices that the state's doing. Does that? Yeah, no, I'm with, I'm with you on that. And first of all, did you hear, did you hear the helicopters that just flew from our house? No, it was five military helicopters in formation. And I'm just like oh my gosh they hear what we're saying they're coming for me oh it's really weird really weird let me know if you

got like a red a red laser on your house right now yeah i'm just like goodness gracious no but so i'm i don't i don't think that the ideals of Christian anarchy are antithetical to trying to influence or persuade the state. Like and and I'll go back to the, you know, Jews in exile, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. They they were a part of the system, you know, they were, um, they allowed themselves, they were offered an opportunity to be in the ruling class and they accepted it, but they set themselves apart. They distinguished themselves in several ways, you know, and ultimately there was one distinction that, that, you know, would have cost them their life if, uh, the fourth man didn't show up in the fire, you know? And, um, but they, they said either way, either God will

save us or we'll die, but we're not bowing to you, you know? Um, and so I, I, I think there's a place for that. And another really great example, like, I mean, people think the force of the state is the only way to get things done. Right. Um, like I've heard someone told me in a conversation about this, like, well, what do you say about slavery? The only way we got rid of slavery was by fighting a war, you know? So, I mean, the, the sword of the state is necessary for, for true justice. state is necessary for true justice. And I'm like, no, I don't agree with that because the British Empire ended slavery without a war. They did it from Christians who advocated, William Wilberforce and all that, like Christians were being faithful and just continual advocacy won over the hearts. They won their hearts over. And then they, you know, I think they also,

there were economic reasons where they realized that they were going to bleed themselves dry, but you know, you can appeal to practical means as well when you're making your case for these things. But I don't think that means that, you know, you go, uh, build a Christian commune and just, you know, let come what may. I think we can be involved in the the processes around. It's more of a matter of our our hearts allegiance and what we want and how we want to make it happen. So though. And it's a fine line. I mean, it's a fine line because you see people advocating for Christian justice through the government. To me, that's that's too far. It's like Christian justice, God's justice. I don't want to say God's justice will never come through the state. I think sometimes it does.

But it won't come because God's people have outsourced their ability to perform justice to the state. Like we do justice and we show them how it's done. And they change because of that. We don't outsource our authority and protest and March. And, you know, I, unless it's a part of trying to get MLK, I think that's the way to be honest, just say, Hey, here we are. Here's what we think. Um, as far as starting militias and, you know, the, I'm thinking more of the current, uh, marches that we see that don't seem to be in line with any kind of view of, uh, God's kingdom on earth as it is in heaven you know you're talking about january 6th

yeah yeah i'm talking about that for sure and you know and then but and you know the other side there was a there's a group of uh uh there's a black militia like you're not allowed in it if you have any other skin color and they march with, uh, you know, AK 47s or whatever, you know, military grade rifles and they march and they just, they haven't done anything violent, but they're, they're threatening by their presence, you know? Um, and I don't think that's the way, you know, I don't think we should be threatening, You know, I don't think we should be threatening. You know, I think we should be the the the people set apart who demonstrate what true love, mercy, compassion, kindness and justice are. But we get that from living in the spirit. We don't get that from voting for somebody. Would it be, let me get, I'm just thinking as you're talking kind of an analogy or not an analogy, but like an example.

So there's obviously problems in many poor inner cities and big states and big cities with the school system, endless cycles of poverty and housing and crime. And it's just all a big mess in some places, right? So you could focus energies on, I don't even know, like what legislation or different bills coming across and kind of like the state's attempt to rectify the situation. Or you can do what a lot of churches do and they go in and they reach out and they start through relationships,

reforming people's hearts and opening up other opportunities to get people out of, out of gangs. And they, they reach out to single mothers who are trying to raise three kids or whatever, so that their kids end up not, you know, getting sucked up into the cultural surroundings and stuff. There's some real, I mean, I've seen some, I don't know the names, but I'm going to read some stories about churches like in South Chicago, you know, which is high crime and just all kinds of issues going on,

but churches that are really taking some risks, but doing some amazing things that the government's trying to do, but just doing it government-y, you know, it's just not, um, is that, would that be an example of what you do? Like, like similar goals, you know, reducing poverty, reducing crime, helping broken homes and kids growing up in this kind of environment. But so the goal is kind of the same, but it's a completely different means. I mean, I think the, the, the difference is in, is in the power structures. You know, when you let the government do it, the government's always going to be about subjugating people, whether the participants know it or not. That's what government is about, you know? And so then it gets bogged

down in bureaucracy, and their end game is not really to solve those problems. Their end game is to create a loyal citizenry. And it's never completely altruistic. I mean, there's always a self always. Sure. I hate sweeping statements, but most of the time there's a very self-serving, how can this help keep my power or gain more power? Right. By doing the same thing.

And I think Christians should do the same thing. I think Christians should, we're not, it's not merely because this is the right thing to do. It is, there's a greater right thing that I want you to be a part of and experience. And this is the means to bring you into that fold. You know, I mean, I don't want to cheapen it by saying that the only reason we do justice is for evangelism. It's not that cut and dry, but I don't, I think they're so intertwined though. If that's our motive, then that is at the heart of what we're trying to do. You know, whether you give an altar call or not, doesn't matter. You know,

that's still in the same way, the state's trying to, uh, kind of accomplish their ends and what they do. Well, Christians are also trying to accomplish their ends, which I would say is the great commission and the great commission lived out a lot of times is just justice in your neighborhood. Um, you know, it doesn't have to be a revival service. So, um, but as you're talking, I mean, I'm thinking I just did school orientation for our boys. Got a second, fourth grader coming up and, um, they're in a charter school. So it's kind of a hybrid. It's, uh, it's city funded. So it, it, they do have state money, but they have autonomy to a degree to make their own rules in some ways. So when all the other schools went back for a month before they shut down again, our school didn't do it.

We just stayed at home the whole year this year, for example. But this school came out of one man's vision. He saw a problem. And I'm in a neighborhood that is largely been gentrified, still in the process of it. But you see underserved communities being left out of high end education or just quality education. or just quality education. And you see the results of that, the high crime rates and all this. And it's like, if, if they could just get decent schooling, you would solve a lot of other problems in the neighborhoods, you know? And so he started this school with a few things in mind. And so, uh, our school is 70% black and Latino, which used to reflect the neighborhood but now it's far more uh waspy um but they're still sticking to that you know and um they uh especially i think it's like 15 percent um there's an acronym that's the right way to say it but i don't know the right way to say it right now so So forgive me the disabled.

Um, and, and so they're really targeting that. Um, and you know, and I'm like, this is good. This is good. And they are the number one school in the entire County out of like 180, every testing metric, math, science, reading overall, everything placement into top high schools like they they they're number one and so what's happened is you you saw bitterness from the metro schools um but now now you see emulation so they tried to like stop them because they were being so successful but now the tide has turned where you're starting to see metro change how they do things and so not only are they changing it for the students in this where you're starting to see Metro change how they do things. And so not only are they changing it for the students in this school, they're going to change it for the students in the whole city. Right. Well, I think in a way, that's the model for how Christians can impact their society.

Like we're going to show you the way we're going to do it the right way as the spirit leads through the power of Christ. We live out his kingdom is the future. We live out the future in the present. We're going to live this out and show you what it looks like. And it will, it will change society back to the book of Acts. It will do it. It won't do it when we outsource our power and authority. So I would say in a lot of ways, a lot of our social ills are where the church has been responsible for, not because they've neglected it directly, but because they've neglected it indirectly by giving the state the power to do it. When it's there, God has called Christians to do it, not the state. And so we've abdicated. we've abdicated our power. We've abdicated our authority. And I think that, you know, again, Christian anarchy is a shocking term for most people who hear it for the first time. But I think we need to be shocked out of this because it's so embedded and ingrained in how we, uh, think of ourselves as citizens in this place, in this country. It's so ingrained that we we've got to really surgically get in there and start separating, um, what's good and what's not. Um, otherwise we're going to keep getting, you know, January 6th type things with a machine gun and a Jesus saves poster with the same person.

You know, it's like we got to separate these things, you know, and why? Why in the world would a Christian march against the Capitol? It doesn't make any sense, you know. So anyway, I'm sure there's some people, let's do this for a minute. The two scriptural things that I keep hearing over and over. So let's talk about the two big ones. You already mentioned Romans 13. So I guess we don't have to go back over that, but I love, I always refer people to what Stanley Harawas says, and the clips on YouTube, you can find it, but he basically is like, well, I still can't get past Romans 12, you know, and he's like, and then he's like, how in the world would Romans 13 mean what you're saying when Romans 12 says this, you know? And so I would encourage people to look that up.

I don't have it memorized, so I can't quote it. Well, I said that in my book, Fight, now called Nonviolence. Yeah, what's interesting is even the death penalty passage in Romans 13, 4, is directly connected to Romans 12.19, where God says, do not take vengeance. Vengeance is mine. I will repay. Those very same terms. I don't have the Greek text in front of me, but it's because Christians aren't supposed to do this that God will take care of it. And one way in which God does it is through an imperfect, corrupt state in Romans 13. So it's one thread of a single argument. And also, I think people are thrown off by that term, the servant of God, the government's the servant of God. Well, that term's used all over prophetic literature in the Old Testament to

refer to the Assyrians who skin people alive, the Babylonians, the Persians. Like it's not a happy, happy, clappy term. It's God is so sovereign that he will use these despicable people who are doing all kinds of evil. He will bend their evil direction to serve his purpose in our fallen world. And so it seems like Paul's drawing on that kind of prophetic tradition by using the very same term, the servant of God. That's a very well-known prophetic term. So, yeah, I think if you just open up your lens a little bit,

Romans 13 is not celebrating the state at all, at all. I don't know how you'd agree with that one. But there still is, like, be a good citizen, obey the laws. But, again, you're not saying don't do that. It's just – I'm saying be a good citizen strategically. Okay. You know, know where your real citizenship is, right, and where they conflict.

You know, I mean, it's – I don't even want to – i've heard people describe it as dual citizenship it's not even that yeah like it's it's that that's a bad metaphor i mean it's like no i'm a i'm a citizen of heaven i'm a citizen of god's kingdom um kingdom. Um, and I live here. So a better metaphor. And, uh, uh, I, I, I don't know. I feel like he said it in several places that general idea NT Wright uses it all the time, but like, it's almost like the, we're to be an embassy in a foreign land, you know, that that's the church's role is to be an embassy. So you maintain your culture, you maintain your loyalties and allegiances. And, you know, even how we treat ambassadors, they're not subject to certain laws because we know like respect that and we acknowledge that in diplomacy. We allow them to be citizens of this other place and live here and, you know, reap the benefits of living here, but they don't have to, you know, give that kind of allegiance away. So I think that's a better metaphor for how the church is to be in whatever country they are. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Um,

so let's go to the other scriptural one. And I, this is the main one I hear. And, uh, you go to first Peter too. I'm not, we can do that too.

And Jackie will has a whole chapter on that in his book, Christian. So we can do that. What I hear far more often is, uh, render under Caesar. Oh, right. Okay. Um, which, what christianity so we can do that what i hear far more often is uh render unto caesar oh right okay um which uh you know your buddy your buddy derwin gray i i i hit him with the hashtag no king but christ and said christians shouldn't vote and i i think that that shocked him and so he actually engaged with me and he said, you know, Jesus paid

taxes. And I'm like, I didn't say don't pay taxes. I said, don't vote, you know? And so, you know, kind of fleshed it out a little bit, but, um, that that's the first thing people go to. They're like, well, if you're paying taxes, you're showing loyalty. And I'm like, are you really trying to tell me in that episode that Jesus was deferring to Caesar? The king of the entire universe held gold that he made in his hand with someone else's picture and said, oh, now it's his. I mean, you're really trying to tell me

that he's saying that, oh, we share power. You give him what's his and give me what's mine. You're trying to tell me that he was saying, no, you can split the power. Jesus was not in any way sharing his power with Caesar. All right, so what's going on in that passage? I remember reading N.T. Wright on this, and he had a very different take. I would love to hear how you read that passage.

Well, I think I just said it, but I mean, I take it as very sarcastic. I take it as Jesus being very sarcastic. I mean, I take it as very sarcastic. I take it as Jesus being very sarcastic. And I think it is Jesus being very clever to escape the trap that was set for him. They're like, well, we're going to he's either going to show loyalty to Caesar and then all the people won't trust him anymore because they're looking for a revolutionary hero. It's like or he's going to say something that is treasonous to the state and they're going to arrest him. Or he's going to say something that is treasonous to the state, and they're going to arrest him. And he really very cleverly and sarcastically got out of that trap.

I think that's what was happening there. Well, historically, if you look at Jewish history, not paying taxes, refusing to pay taxes is kind of the first step towards revolution. And taxes were seen as kind of the first step towards ruling over somebody else. You subjugate them and start collecting taxes. It was a very symbolic and obviously very practical way to subjugate somebody else, to have them fund your empire. So I think there is, especially given the kind of era of revolution that surrounded Jesus throughout his ministry, when people were, you know, are we going to take over the kingdom now? Is now the time, even Acts 1, right? Are we going to do it now? Should we strap on our

swords, you know? Yeah. So I think that's what N.T. Wright says, something similar. Like he's got kind of a tongue in cheek or yeah kind of a sarcastic flair to what he's saying there it's hard it's hard to prove that from the text necessarily you think I mean how you what if somebody says no I don't think it's being sarcastic I mean how do you it's kind of well prove that but I mean the text, they are trying to trap him. Yeah. And from the text, he escaped this trap in a very clever way. Yeah. But I, sometimes when I read these stories, I mean, and you know, I, I like to do imaginative reading of the gospels, you know, and which is why I love the chosen. I love it. And I don't, you know, I, all of their depictions aren't what I would

choose, but I think they're all, I have not seen a single one that I don't think is faithful to the text. Um, so, but I love, you know, you have to kind of put yourself in the story in a way, you know, when you're reading, especially maybe more devotionally than, you know, uh, text critically or whatever. But, uh, I can't, you like Seinfeld. Do you like Sefeld do you like seinfeld yeah yeah of course yeah yeah so you know when he's on his show and he can't help but smirk when he's he knows he's about to deliver a line like he knows it like i picture jesus with that kind of smirk he's like i'm about to i'm about to give you this is going to be good and i picture him with that kind of that smirk on his face like i, I got a good one here. And so I very much in that episode pictured Jesus kind of with a half-cocked smile, just being kind of smirky about it. And again, that's more my imaginative reading.

Well, it does make sense of how he has approached other similar episodes in the Gospels where people are trying to trap him. He never gives a straightforward response. Like, yeah, Pharisees and Sadducees, and like, which one's he going to side with? And all of a sudden he says something that's like, I'm not playing your game. I'm not even in your... My kingdom is so categorically different. It doesn't fit into your different paradigms of what it looks like.

I want to go back to voting real quick. You're on the border saying voting's a sin. I'm going to give you one last opportunity to walk that back a little bit. Well, okay. Let me – I want to say one thing before you jump in. When people say – when people encourage other people to vote, there's always 100% of the time an unstated assumption that you're going to vote for the person they want you to vote for. So when my right-wing relatives say, make sure you vote, I'm like, I haven't done this yet.

I need to get the courage to do so. I'm like yes i'm totally gonna vote for biden they're like no no no like well you just told me to vote you didn't say right no no don't don't don't vote for okay so we'll just say that then you need to vote for trump and you can see how stupid that sounds but and then on the other side too on the left we need to vote we need to whatever like okay i'm gonna vote for trump you know like no no don't do that i'm like well you just we need to vote. We need to whatever. I'm like, okay, I'm going to vote for Trump. Like, no, no, don't do that. I'm like, well, you just told me to vote. So I want to encourage people if they're like, we need to vote, at least be honest with you're really saying vote for this side, not that side.

Right? It's really funny. Don't just tell me just to vote as if you really just want me to go cast a vote for anybody. I mean, it's really funny. And I can say that I did not vote for Donald Trump, any opportunity that I was given to do that. So I feel like you have to let people know that or they assume you did. But I live in the one little blue dot in the middle of the Red Sea of Tennessee. So while it might seem living in the South is, uh, very pro Trump, I don't,

I don't leave my East Nashville very often. And, uh, I don't get to see that. Like I very much think that I live in a blue world, you know? And so all of the voting things, I'm like, you know, people pressure you to vote. And I'm like, I don't know if you're going to like how that's going to go, you know? And it's like, and, and, you know, generally pressure you to vote. And I'm like, I don't know if you're going to like how that's going to go. You know, and it's like and, you know, generally I'm president anyway. I voted for third party. And let me just say I have voted in every election I've been able to. So this is not something I have practiced yet. And the the the thing that's. Well, let me ask you. Do you think voting is a moral choice?

No. No. Where I'm at now, I hate talking about personal politics because I – but yeah, I haven't voted in a long time. It hasn't been necessarily out of protest. If I did vote, it would almost likely be third party. Like you said, I think I just, my,

my nervousness with voting, especially in this polarized age is that it's a symbol of allegiance to a tribe that I don't belong to. Look, you can resonate with one side or the other. You just made my case. You just made my case. That's it. That's the whole point. It's a symbol of allegiance. Yeah. It's like, it's like you're, let me, this is a, uh, an analogy I just came up with. It's

like, well, are you a Dodger fan or a Giants fan? Go, going back to more important things here. Are you a Dodgers fan or Giants fan? I'm like, well, I'm not playing baseball. I'm playing football. Like, I'm not even – these tribes you've created in this political spectrum where if you belong to one, then the other one's your enemy. You are creating a whole moral framework that I don't even recognize. I protest that. So, like, no, no, no. I don't – and this is the – I think years ago it wouldn't have been so much like that. Like you can vote Democrat doesn't mean you're anti

everybody on the right, or vice versa. But now it's almost like if you symbolically give any kind of like allegiance to one side or the other, then you are on that team. And that team to be on that team, you have to hate the other team. And you have to think the other team is not just wrong but evil. And it's like this whole moral world is destructive and very anti-Christian and kingdom. So that's my nervousness with voting now. Now, I could theoretically vote in the private of my heart, not tell anybody whatever.

And, you know, if people ask, I'm not even going to tell you because I don't want you to think I'm on a certain team. But I don't know. Now our media and everything is so powerful, even if I just voted in the private of my heart, whatever, and didn't tell anybody, it still has that sense of like, this is my team, and that's the enemy. We need to destroy it. Like it just – I don't know. It can fuel that kind of posture. So back to what I told you, you already are.

I'm not going to say it's a sin to – I'm still not you already are it's a sin too i'm still not going to say it's a sin device okay okay yeah well i'll let me let me unpack that because i know that's a little that's a that's got a little sting to it but but first you already are a christian anarchist you already are so i mean you know if you can just get back past it and uh everything you're saying is that. So here's why I say it's a sin. Let me hold on. Sorry, I need a little caffeine booster for this one. So the 81 percent, you know what I mean when I say that I don't even have to explain it. The 81 percent of evangelicals voted for Trump. Right.

even have to explain it. The 81% of evangelicals who voted for Trump, right? So for four years plus now, we're told that the church is culpable for Donald Trump. Like they, everything that he did, you know, good or bad, I guess, but mostly you're talking about bad, the church is responsible for because they put him there. Right. And so in this most recent election, I started to see a real double standard when people were trying to make their case for who you should vote for. Um, and they're really trying to turn that evangelical tide to maybe, you know, vote for Biden, you know, turn blue, at least this one time, um, see how bad it was or whatever. Look how bad it's been for the church. And I'm talking about Christian people, you know, making this case. And I'm like, you're not applying the same metric. You're not, it is such a double standard. Oh, so you're a responsible for the evil of Donald Trump,

but you're not responsible for the evil of the next guy. Like if you voted for him and you endorsed him. And then I started to think when we stand before the judgment seat of Christ and we'll be judged for everything and thank God it's a merciful judge, but I think we're still going to be called out on things. Do you think to some level we're culpable of the person we gave our endorsement to with our vote, with our state mandated say in what happens? Are we not going to have some measure of culpability for every drone strike for forever? Because we endorsed it. We said so. I that's why I think it might be a sin is like you put him there like you gave him you gave this man so far. there's not been a woman, you gave this man the authority.

You endorsed his authority to do what he's doing. He didn't do it over and against you like in the old days where a king just did as he pleased and the people could not be held culpable for that. You endorsed that. So you're agreeing, are you agreeing with the logic then that a vote is endorsing? I don't know. If we can undo that logic, then maybe it's not a sin. But if that's what we're going to say, then the logical conclusion is that you are culpable for who you voted for. So we need to go back and say if you're not morally culpable for the deeds of who you voted for, then let's stop talking that way.

I would lean towards that. I don't know. What do you think about that 81%? I just see so many problems. As someone who was in, well, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. 81% of evangelicals who, first of all, it's who voted, voted for Trump.

Right. There's a lot, voted for Trump. Right. There's a lot of people didn't vote or, you know. Okay. So who voted, voted for Trump. But then you've got to, come on, dude. Like, let's at least ask the question, why? What was the other option? How many said, I don't like either of these two candidates, but this one's slightly worse than this one.

So I'm going to, What about people who are just... I know people get on the kind of one-issue voting, but abortion is kind of... Are you going to say lesser of two evils? It sounds like what you're about to say. Well, a spectrum of lesser of two evils, though. People that held their nose and voted for Trump also consider the other candidate. How many... How much...

Wait, wait. I need to word this right. Yeah. How much of the Democratic Party is culpable for the Trump vote? Because they put up, at least in 2016, a pretty garbage candidate. Like this is basically a female Trump. Do you want male Trump or do you want female Trump? Yeah. They're both like morally bankrupt. You can't trust them. They're power grabbing. They're sick and twisted.

And then there's the hypocrisy of like, okay, here, I'm going to go here. I was thinking about this the other day. Should I go here? No, I don't know. Well, if you're already saying it, just go there. I just, there is a certain level of moral hypocrisy when people are troubled by Trump's sexual immorality. When 70% of people are watching other men on porn grab other women by their pee. i'm not i'm not i'm not excusing anything i'm just saying like this outrage how could you oh he's so bad i'm like you put a hot mic up to your brain your private conversations your screen and let's see what's revealed right and i'm not saying like you're evil i'm'm just saying like let's at least have the humility and kind of like the guy banging his chest, you know, woe is me. I'm a sinner.

I'm the sinner, you know, like this. Like, no, you break open my heart and you're going to see all kinds of darkness and corruption and stuff. Not to excuse it when people do it publicly, not to excuse it when a public figure, a leader is doing that. But it's like, and I've said this before, Trump is a mirror to the American person, the American male. Narcissistic. Yeah, that's America. Immoral. Yeah, that's America. They lie. He's after power. That's pretty much most Americans. So it's like, to me, the pro-Trump hysteria is just as dangerous as the anti-Trump hysteria because you are investing messianic expectations, whatever, in a Babylonian ruler.

So you're going to say it one more time. You are a Christian anarchist. You are, yeah. I mean, that is the thing. They're all morally bankrupt. And I think it's directly related to their positions of power. I mean, power corrupts. And only Jesus has the moral authority to be in power without being stained by it.

So that's what we believe as Christians. We don't seek that kind of power. We defer. I mean, that's the whole part of anybody's testimony or conversion experience is the giving over of that power to the one king, you know, to follow him and, and, uh, obey him because he's the only one who can have that power. No individual can even have that power over their own life, much less over an entire country. So, you know, good people don't seek that kind of power. So you can just basically assume whoever's trying to get that kind of power is probably not a good person and um morally morally i mean because there's lots of ways you can say good i mean i did you

see the news last week ken star you know the guy who led the investigation on uh on uh bill clinton no um he was having an affair during those trials he had sexual improprieties as he was calling out Bill Clinton. It shows that he didn't care about the morality of Clinton. It was about power. You know, it was about getting this person out of power and getting his team in power. That's all it was ever about. It was never about the morality of it. But how did how did they sell it? They sold it as, you know, the moral majority all the way back to Falwell. And, you know, this Christian ethic that we expect from our government. And it's like it's fake for so long, but we've met, they've convinced us they're on

our team and they're for us. That's why all these Christians voted for Trump. They say, Trump's the guy who's going to step up and speak for us. Like, no, only Jesus does that. You don't need an advocate. You don't need an, we have an advocate. It's called the Holy Spirit. You don't need a politician to advocate for the church. You don't need it. And if they tell you that they are going to do it, they're only manipulating you. And we've been manipulated for a long time. And that's why this is even a hard conversation for people to have, because they're going to have to look inside and realize you've been duped. I have to look inside and say, I've been duped. You said the Pledge of Allegiance. You've been duped. You know, you say, you know, you take your hat off the Star Spangled Banner and sing along.

You've been duped. You know, they've convinced you that these things are compatible, that your Christian faith can be lived out through the power of the state, that if America does well, then the church, then the kingdom of God does well. Oh, they're antithetical. They don't work. It don't work that way. And we're seeing the repercussions of that. Yeah, I 100% agree. I've managed so many different directions. Real quick, since you touched on the pledge and the Star Spangled Banner, I don't pledge. I do stand.

If anybody stands, with the Star Spangled Banner, I also stand. I take my hat off, and I put my hands behind my back. I don't put my hand over my heart. And these are all fine lines. And I'm not, please, if somebody's like no i do all that i'm not these are tough issues i don't pledge the allegiance because i think that's it's adopting religious language that i again good citizen obey the state keep her head down you have quiet indifference to the laws of the land but you obey them hey i'm gonna be good so you want me to drive

35 i'll try to drive 35. But I'm not – my allegiance is not to the state. I might obey the state in as much as it's not conflicting with my allegiance to Jesus. My allegiance isn't to the state. Star-Spangled Banner, I mean, that song, you listen to the lyrics, I'm like, man. And the hand over the heart to me is a symbol of allegiance. And I just can't go there. I stand.

I don't kneel or turn around because I'm still trying to be respectful to Babylon and this event that they're doing. I respect you guys. I'm not going to protest necessarily what you're doing in this moment but i'm not going to give my allegiance to it what do you think about that is that and i don't know if i might change my mind tomorrow on some of those things i just the thing i thought of was you were saying that i mean i think respectful is is is the word you want to be respectful with it i you know i've i've been I've traveled a lot and I've been in Hindu temples and I've been I've been in I've attended a Muslim prayer service in the Middle East, you know, and I'm respectful. Yeah. Take your shoes off before you enter the temple. Yeah. You adhere to the protocols to show respect. But that's not him as deference. Right. Right.

to the protocols to show respect, but that's not his deference, right? Right. That's not, that's not, and, and, and, and in the same way, I, I, I, uh, I attribute it to how you would act when anyone's worshiping a false God, you know? I love that. I gotta write that. Yeah, that was good. Hold on a sec. I gotta write that that. Yeah, that was good. Hold on a sec. I got to write that down.

All right. So how do we, because, I mean, do you see, it's kind of the, of course you see it. I mean, everything we're saying is not the view of the overwhelming majority of the evangelical church. view of the overwhelming majority of the evangelical church and every single pastor, well, 90% of the pastors I talk to say this political allegiance in their congregation has disrupted their discipleship journey like nothing I've seen before. The only, yeah, and it's typically on the right, right? It's the Christian nationalistic spirit. Well, it gets more subtle.

It's more subtle on the left. But if you go and go back and look at people's tweets or just go listen to how people were talking at the inauguration. I mean, they were using religious language. They were talking about, you know, the dawn has come. The light is breaking through the darkness. Um, they were using, I saw people say that they felt the Holy spirit present at the, at the inauguration and they were thanking God, but they were still saying, I'm like, you're saying the Holy spirit has endorsed this. Do you know what he's about to do and sign off on?

has endorsed this? Do you know what he's about to do and sign off on? Because if you're saying the Holy Spirit endorsed that, then I've got problems with the Holy Spirit. I mean, I'm sure some people in Yemen have a problem with the Holy Spirit if he's endorsing that. I was saying more just numerically. When you take it like

the broad evangelical church, there's a much numerical problem with people being in bed. I'm going to point out to you because almost no one notices. Very subtle. It's very subtle. And I think it's almost like a mnemonic device type of thing, but or whatever that would be for visual. of thing, but, um, or whatever that would be for visual, but, um, they frequently, you will see pictures of Biden from a press conference or anything like that. And they got the seal, you know, the presidential seal behind his head. They frame his head right in the middle of the seal to where the presidential seal looks like a halo. And it's like a it's like a portrait of a saint like one of the you know one

of the byzantine portraits of sainthood and so they frame that thing right around his head to where there's this yellow circle right around his head and it's like you can't tell me that's an accident because they keep doing it is that every candidate is that do they do that with every presidential i've never noticed it before never noticed it before i don't know i have to go back and look i only noticed it with, with in like January and February, I started seeing it a lot. So it's, uh, come on y'all. Okay. You couldn't be more clear about worshiping, you know, you're conflating things and saying that this person is endorsed by Christ is what you're saying if he's a saint, you know? So, and that,

which is funny because the Catholic church is about is talking about revoking his communion privileges. Oh, you didn't see that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, they were talking about the bishops were talking about disallowing him communion. And I don't think it went through, but it was public news that they were considering that. So just kind of funny. But anyway.

That's what the Protestant church, yeah, that's what I appreciate about the Catholic church. They had the power to do that. Whereas, I mean, they should have done that with Trump, but he was Protestant, right? Protestant in name. Right. So no one had the power to do that. Whereas, I mean, they should have done that with Trump, but he was Protestant, right? Protestant in name. So no one had the power to say, yeah, you too, bro. You can't get your fingers away from my bread and wine. Right, right, right. Yeah. So, which is interesting too, because, you know, I don't think we should deny communion to anyone who wants to receive it, you know, uh, with the right heart and attitude, um, with repentance, you know, I think even a president can be pardoned of their sins.

Right. Um, but, um, yeah, I, but anyway, uh, I don't, I think, so going back to what you said about pastors and talking about the divisions and the difficulties in discipleship, that's, said about pastors and talking about the divisions and the difficulties in discipleship. That's, that's why I think it's important for us to start delving into an already established, uh, uh, what do you, what would you call it? An already established line of thought, but that's not what I really want to say. But anyway, uh, Christian anarchy is not like a new thing, you know? I mean, it's, it's been talked about. Uh, it's an ideology. There you go. That's what I'm looking for. Um, and let's, let's revisit this. We've dismissed it too easily in the past. And when you read people who have wrote, written thoughtfully

about it, you got Jacques Lua, who by the way, is way ahead of his time on many topics. If you read him on technology, you think he would have wrote this year, but he died in 90, early nineties, never even saw the internet. So, um, if you read his work on technology, it's, it is prescient. Um, but, um, but you know, he writes about, uh, Christian anarchy, Leo Tolstoy wrote quite a bit about it and, you he lived through uh the the bolshevik revolution and all that and you know and and so his thoughts were framed by that uh right here one of the biggest american proponents has has been uh david lipscomb lipscomb university here in nashville he's the founder of that he he wrote quite a bit about the concept and, you know, it goes as far back as like the Mennonites and Moravian brethren. Um, and, and, you know, it, it, a lot of it comes from the reformation,

you know, and you can trace it back even farther. If you want, you can look at the early church fathers where I think, I can't remember which church father it was. Um, one of the big ones, Athanasius, I don't know, don't quote me. One of the big ones, Athanasius. I don't know. Don't quote me on this one. But I saw someone putting a list for it to even go into the building of the church school, which they would have activities throughout the week that a prostitute would have to renounce her livelihood before she could even enter the building. But and then I saw I can't remember the historian who was talking about it.

I was like, is it just them? He's like, no. And soldiers would have to as well, you know, like soldiers would have to renounce their career to even set foot in the church. And that, that was the attitude from, you know, the first few centuries of Christianity to how it's flipped now, where you got this God and country kind of thing where it's so enmeshed. The church used to think if you were a soldier, you were in sin. Yeah. You know?

Well, they had a lot of the early documents. When this goes back, gosh, almost 10 years for me, because I have a whole chapter in Fight, now called Nonviolence, on the early church. And I was really focusing on nonviolence and how the early church – this was almost like a cardinal doctrine that Christians should never kill somebody no matter what. And they did. Exactly what you're saying. I have documentation in that chapter on the early church. There was a kind of a debate. Would they allow a soldier to have communion or even enter a church? Or what kind of repentance would they have to do by nature of their soldiering to be able to belong to the church community again? And it was a live debate, but can you imagine today? I know. I know.

It's crazy, man. I mean, I don't know, man. I feel like pastors and leaders, in as much as they are like, yes, I see what you're saying. I might not line up on everything. But yes, this political partisan allegiance is hindering the mission of the church. But if you start preaching against it, your church is going to dwindle for the most part. Go for it, though. I don't want to downplay the financial and all this stuff that would happen if your church gets it becomes a fraction of the size but i'm just if it's genuinely stunting people's discipleship then we need to start addressing it calling it out well and you don't have to go in guns blazing uh pardon the metaphor but um yeah you know you can read up on some of these people who have written on Christian anarchy,

and you can start introducing ideas more subtly than just do an exposition of Christian anarchy, which is going to be off-putting, you know, off the bat. I don't think they should use a name. I think Christian anarchy, I think it needs to rebrand itself. You can talk about everything we're talking about without using that term. That term is going to be a— Yeah, I like it. Yeah, but you're – But you would agree that if the term is just going to be too much of a hangup, then just present the ideas, which I feel like –

Yeah. There's levels of both. I mean I think in some ways you need to shock people. Like, oh, wait, what do you mean? You know, and so that gets you in the conversation because it's intriguing and people know, what, basically everything I've said on this podcast, you know, that we can talk about this. And I think that a lot of, uh, humble and thoughtful followers of Christ would, would acquiesce. As I've said, that you are a Christian anarchist. You just don't call it that, that a lot of people are, a lot of people are. But if enough people start saying that's the thing, that's going to cause curiosity. And people are going to realize this is not compatible with what I think of my faith. And then they're going to have to be faced with the idea, do we even have the same faith? And which one's right? and so they're going to have to ask hard questions right now the question is not even asked it's in their minds they don't think deeply enough about it they can live in loyalty this to the state and jesus most christians in this country most i'm comfortable saying most think that that is possible and they need to

be shocked out of it. They've got, there needs to be a jolt to the system for them to realize. I mean, because it's so deeply ingrained that it's not going to be this kind of, you know, you know, slowly just kind of, at some point you're going to have to say, you've been blaspheming, you know, at some, you're going to have to say you've been blaspheming. You know, at some point, you're going to have to say you're committing idolatry and I call you to repent. You know, at some point, otherwise, it's just going to keep going. There's not going to be any difference or change. How does your church handle it?

Handle what in particular well your church is i'm going to assume is a lot more punk rock than most churches that is probably most of them are probably already there or they would be they'd err on the side of the left right i would assume or i would say majority we definitely have a couple uh outspoken trump supporters but really but yeah, they're the minority for sure. Um, so yeah, I mean, I think our church handles it. Uh, well, Josh, our pastor and, and my, uh, co-host of my podcast, which I haven't mentioned catacomb podcast yet, but you gotta go listen to my podcast with my pastor catacomb podcast go uh subscribe leave a review if you're on apple leave five stars trust me you don't have to listen to one you'll like it um but anyway

josh's approach has been um to try to say stop getting caught up in this. Let's focus on the work of the kingdom. And that, that's how we rise above this. Like this, this basically his sermons have, he's, he's, he can be gentle when he knows it's controversial, but, um, in a, in a kind of gentle, but also confrontational way saying like, this is a distraction to what we're trying to do here. So, and it's, and it's, and it's hurting your soul. I see your Facebook posts, like you're not in a good frame of mind, clearly, you know? So, um, he's more focused on people healing and being whole and it is, it's harming people. It's harming people's souls. It's, it's stressing them out. It's causing them angst and anxiety. And like, that's, that's not, uh, what Christ has redeemed us to live like, you know, um,

we should be liberated from this. So there, he's pointing out a kind of, uh, internal bondage that this has created for people. So he's more focused on that because he's, uh, it is hard. He's a spiritual director and, um, you know, he's more focused on people's, um, uh, healing and wholeness. So I guess that's the way he's approaching that. Um, but as far as, you know, drawing that hard line, you know, that's up to me, I guess, uh, as our podcast anyway, for sure, where I'm just like, we had a great episode with an actual candidate for governor in the state of Arkansas. It's one of our more recent episodes. And so we talked about this a little bit. And he's a libertarian candidate, but he's also a prison chaplain. And so we talked a little bit about how he, uh, views his role, uh, as someone who

wants to be in politics, but is doing it in his mind for the cause of Christ. And, and so, you know, there was a good little back and forth there, but in the end, I think he agreed with the heart behind what you and I are saying here. Um, but in his conclusion, he's like, but I'm still going to try to do this. And he also kind of knows he's not going to be the governor, you know, he's running on the libertarian candidate ticket, you know? So it's more about, um, introducing ideas into the conversation and having people think about something that wouldn't even be brought up if he wasn't there. So, you know, and that's consistent with, with kind of what I've said

as well. So, um, but it's, it's a good episode. Um, he would be the first black governor of Arkansas if he were to somehow pull that off, but, um, there's, there's, there's really no way. Um, but anyway, I mean, I, I just, I went out, you know know that's at the end of the day i want out i want out of this mess i don't i don't it's like you said he's like uh well which baseball team you like he's like i'm an eagles fan i don't know you know i follow football you're right it's like i don't know what you're talking about i went out of that i went out of that uh constant constant linear dichotomy. You know, I want to. So and that's not to be kind of like so heavenly minded, you're no earthly good either. No, it's a different.

It's a whole different paradigm for being an earthly good. Yeah, right. And that critique assumes that the paradigm, the political American partisan paradigm is the only paradigm through which we can operate. Right. And so even the very accusation, you're too heavily minded for any earthly good is just so narrow, really. Like the only way to be earthly good is to be partisan. That's how deep the hooks are in. That's how deep the hooks are in and how manipulated we've been. And that's that's it's hard to convince people they've been duped. It's hard to convince people they've been manipulated because it's so deeply ingrained. And so that is the real challenge for this conversation is helping people realize that you, you've been lied to not just by the current

politicians of your lifetime, but a whole litany of generations before have handed you this heritage of sacrificing the authority that Christ wants to give you and your community. And it's really hard to accept, really hard to accept. So, you know, gentleness has to be done. But at some point you just have to be like, those don't work. You're stuck on this paradigm of left and right, and Jesus is calling you up and out. He's not calling you to the left or the right. He's calling you to be redeemed and then be witnesses. I don't want to squeeze too much out of it, but there's that command in Revelation 18, I think, when it's this ferocious critique of Babylon, i.e. Rome, i.e. any, I think, all

earthly governing systems. And he says, come out of her. You know that? it's yeah within the context of revelation 18 and 19 or 7 revelation 17 and 18 it's really powerful it's really i think richard bockham um oh if i remember correctly it's been a while either bockham or maybe nt right or somebody kind of says that this is kind of a climactic statement about Christians removing themselves from the very systems. Maybe not actually, but spiritually, if that makes any sense. Yeah, it is.

And it's your heart. You know, it's hard to really live out the Shema and be loyal to the state. Like, practically impossible. You know? I just don't think you can. And I try to do this with our boys. We don't do it every day.

We probably should do better at that. But we recite it. You know? Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. You know? And we say in our family that here, oh, Newmans, our God is one. You will love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and strength. So I just pulled out just because I don't know if you're doing video here or not.

Yeah, it's video. It is YouTube. This is my copy of jack alul uh anarchy and christianity and if you look at the contents here you see that he goes through the hebrew scriptures yeah and the gospels and then revelation and then, uh, first Peter and Paul. And it's just like, I mean, it's, he's not a, a, a biblical theologian, but he does, he, he did have some seminary training. Um, and you know, just go, I mean, it just goes through it. I mean, highly recommend reading. It's not that long of a book, highly recommend just this, it is the best case that you can read. And, you know, you can Google David Lipscomb and Tolstoy has some essays that are quite compelling, but if you want to start off that, that's it. Jacques-Élul, Anarchy and Christianity. And like, it's just like, I'm

reading through this and he started off as a Marxist. He talks about his introduction that he began as a Marxist and through, you know, the events of the early 20th century with socialism, communism and the World Wars. Like he came out of that and I think he wrote this book in the 50s. And I think he wrote this book in the 50s. So I, I, we don't, I think people, the powers that be don't want us discussing this. It is, it is, it undermines what they're trying to accomplish in their, their agenda of manipulating the church. And I think that politicians, powers that be, inherently see the church as powerful, and they know it's a competitor. And so they're always trying to co-opt it to try to take that power for themselves. And so that's why I go as far as to say voting is wrong, because that is an act of the state trying to take their. But they see you have power. They want that power. And you're acquiescing it.

You have to stop and you say, no, we already have the power. We already by the authority of Christ in the presence of the Holy Spirit. We are the most powerful force on the planet. We are his people. We are his presence here. What's bigger and stronger than that? Now, you might not like the way that things get done. Things get done by, you know, loving your neighbor, praying for your enemies. Things get done by dying on a cross. But that's how the world's upended, not through political means. I do have to state one more time, because propaganda, I just had him on, brought this

up, why the majority of black people in America are very concerned about politics. And he said, and I know we've already kind of touched on this, but I want to touch on it again so I don't come off as tone deaf. Um, black people in America haven't had the privilege to be able to not care about politics.

Um, we've been directly affected by politics. How would you respond to that? Um, and you've got two white guys, two You're treading a fine line here. Well, I think the church should look to—I think the white church should look to the black church as an example, to be honest. I think the black church gets it, the relationship between the church and the state far better than the white church has. And I think they should be a model for how we ought to interact with the state because, you know, you have a lot of people saying, well, it's not really my country, you know? Um, you know, you, you have people who say, I went and fought for the, for this country in the war and I come back and I'm the second class citizen, you know, I mean, that's the story of so many. Um, and that's, uh, right in a way,

you know, I mean, it's not right of the state to do that. And it's not right for them to, um, be made out to be second class citizens, but in some ways, I think Christ is calling us to a kind of second class citizenry when it comes to the state. You know, and I think we have a lot to learn there from them. And that that is not to negate the kind of advocacy and speaking up for justice. I'm not saying to just go hide in a hole, but I'm saying there's an attitude of the heart that says this is my country, but it's not. You know, this is where I was born. It's where I was raised. This is not where I belong. Right. So this is sense of belonging where it's like, yeah, this is not really ultimately where I belong. Um, and the

black experience in this country is pretty unique, pretty unique in history, I think, has a lot to say to us, has a lot that we should examine and emulate. So while I'm sympathetic to say, well, we can't afford not to speak up, I would say that speaking up should not be done through political means, because then you're just giving away your strength. You already are strong. The black church is strong. The black community is strong. Like, don't abdicate that the way white folk have, you know, continue to be strong in this society that the black church has given gospel music has changed the world. Black gospel music gave us rock and roll and pretty much everything else. I mean, Black gospel music gave us rock and roll and pretty much everything else.

I mean, their experience has upended the world through their suffering and oppression, yes. And was that right? No. But God used that. It was cruciform is what it was. It looked a lot like Jesus. Well, that's James Cone, The Cross and the Lynching Tree. I don't know if you've read that. I have. It's so powerful. My gosh. He correlates just how much of the atrocities committed against the black community, while that was happening, the cross made so much sense and they clung to that. And there was so much correlation even between the lynching of innocent black people and the crucifixion of an innocent Middle Eastern Jew.

Yeah, it's it's I need to go back and read it again. It was powerful. But it's what you're saying. Like, yeah, I would say I'm sympathetic, you know, and my black friends who to saying we need to change this. And but to do it by purely political means, I want to say that don't make our mistake. You know, don't don't we should emulate you. You don't emulate us. You've got it right. You know, that's what I that's what I would say. And I know it's easy for us to say because we are from a demographic that does have a kind of privilege in this particular society. But that's not the kind of privilege we're going for. Don't chase that.

Abdicate that in selfless, sacrificial love. And selfless, sacrificial love, you know? It's almost like the way I think about it is, yeah, don't put too much trust in like white progressives that they're actually after your self-interest. Sorry, that they're actually altruistic. I can't even say the word. Altruistically. They're not just motivated by this't say the word altruistically. They're not just motivated by this raw disdain for racism. They are still after power. It's the same thing with the church where I say that the politicians, the state have always tried to take the church's power for their

own political ends. They're doing the same thing. They see blm as a big movement that they can co-opt for their own ends you know they see the uh racial justice uprising is something they can they're always going to co-opt what you care about to gain more power whatever it is so don't give it away so easily don't give it away. Man. Derek Bell, he's the father of CRT. He talks about this in his essay back in the 70s, how during the Civil Rights Movement, there was, I think he used, what's the term? Convergence of interest that this attempt to address racism had all kinds of ulterior motives about trying to look good to the nations with, you know, nations that had brown people that they were trying to partner with in their battle against communism. And it's like, they were, they realized that their segregation laws weren't a good look as they're trying to like, you know, win the hearts of these other nations. And so he's like,

don't think like brown versus the board of education was purely a disdain for race, racial segregation. Like there, there is, there is. And I'm like that, there's something there, man. I, I don't know enough about any of that to say yes, that's true or no, but I'm like, that's a good, if it is true, that's a good example of, yeah. I just being not so quick to think that the yeah any kind of governmental attempt towards justice is really purely a concern for justice i don't know it's not that they they if they cared about true justice they would abdicate their power. I mean, you can't do both.

You know, it's like that. They don't really want that. They want that as much as they'll get your votes from it and get your campaign contributions from it. That's what they want, you know. And so they agree with you in as much as will you vote for me if I say I agree? OK, cool. That's what they're always really saying. They're always really saying, oh, if I do.

Trump was just not very good at hiding it. They all do it. But he was so, you know, he was repellent because he didn't play the game very well. He did the same thing everyone else does. What he said out loud, everybody else is saying in secret or believing in secret? He said the quiet thing out loud yeah you know i mean he was clearly manipulating demographics you know and but and and people conflated things like white nationalism and evangelicalism just because trump manipulated them both to get votes from them they're not the same thing he just

said what he needed to say to get them to vote for him and support him. You know, that's all he was doing. It was manipulation, but he just was not very good at being subtle about it. And so it was abhorrent to so many people, but they're victims to whoever they're voting for is doing the same thing to them. They just are a little bit more clever and stealthy about it. We've got to wrap things up, but I want to invite my Patreon supporters to respond. I've never done this before, and typically they do it anyway, but I would really love to hear from my Patreon supporters. Not because they're supporting the podcast, but just because if I just said, hey, everybody, respond to the podcast, I can't keep up with all that.

And this is a smaller group of people who I know will listen probably to the whole thing. So in the Patreon page, those of you who have access to that would love to hear your thoughts on this episode. And I'll probably say something in the intro about that as well. But Jay, thanks so much for your thoughts. If this podcast is still around next week. No, honestly, I think what we're saying, it's a little uncut, unedited.

There's some edges that could probably be trimmed off a little bit. But I think the heart of what we're saying resonates, I would say, with the majority of people who listen to this, first of all. But I think a lot of, well, hopefully a lot, maybe a growing number of Christiansians who are who have peaked behind the curtain and have seen like this whole back and forth political stuff man this this this doesn't feel like jesus and we need to figure out another way so anarchy i'm gonna pick up that book jacquelou it's been on my reading list for about 20 years. Yeah, it's very different than normal anarchy.

Just keep that in mind. Christian anarchy, but I think it's the right term. I think they should change their term. It reminds me of Christian universalism and secular universalism. Christian universalism says that the blood of Jesus was so powerful that it overcomes unbelief and will usher everybody into the kingdom by virtue of the power of Jesus and him alone. That's very different than, oh, it doesn't matter who you worship, all roads lead to the same place, and Buddha is the same as Jesus is the same as this, you know. Right? There's that same term, universalism, and then Christian universalism. So it's people conflated.

Very different. Very different. And yes, even though I ultimately reject them both, I'm far more sympathetic to a kind of biblical universalism. At least a coherent case can be made. One that I disagree with, but I can respect where someone's coming from. Where the other, I'm just like, that's just nonsense to me. You're Michael Gungor now. You're not on Twitter. There was an uproar.

He said that Jesus is the Christ, Buddha is the Christ, Muhammad is the Christ. He's like, wow, you made everyone mad. No one was happy with his tweet. It's just thoughtful. There's a more thoughtful way of going about that kind of way of thinking. I have time for anybody's kind of perspective, if it's thought out, if it's nuanced, using good language. I'm like, yeah, I would love to wrestle with that.

But when it's just intellectually sloppy, it's like, I don't have time for that. He doesn't have the touch that Richard Rohr has to walk the line. He jumps way over it into crazy town, but sorry, Michael, if you're listening to this, but you're crazy.

Follow me on Instagram. Follow me on Instagram, Newman Family Barbecue. I can't believe we didn't talk about barbecue this whole episode, and I really got to Um, follow me on Instagram, follow me on Instagram, Newman family barbecue. I can't believe we didn't talk about barbecue this whole episode and I really got to go. So we can't bring it up now. Maybe next time. No, you can have me on to talk about barbecue next time because there's a lot of, uh, spiritual formation and discipleship that, that barbecue can teach us. And there's the Bible has a lot to say about barbecue as well.

And I'm hoping to uh uh flesh out some of those thoughts so um yeah i've almost got uh joey dotson agreeing with me that we'll eat meat in in the kingdom um almost almost he would like so um he at least gave me a point for saying well i, I can see that's possible maybe. He's a vegan. Joey's a vegan, man. He's a vegan. But he says it's not for eschatological reasons.

It's for health reasons. That's what he says. But Newman Family BBQ on Instagram, if you like to look at meat. That sounds weird. I think I might pull out a tri-tip for tonight. Actually, that sounds good. I'm hungry. You going to smoke it? Oh, yeah. We sounds weird. I think I might pull out a tri-tip for tonight. That sounds good. I'm hungry. You going to smoke it? Oh yeah. We'll see.

If it's in the freezer, I might not have time. I'm going to launch a Patreon and my barbecue device is no longer free so you'll have to join my Patreon to get cooking tips. That's what I've been telling all my friends. It's not free anymore. You've got to join my club.

Anyway, this was all a good combo. We always have a good combo. We just recorded this one. Right? Yeah. Let's finish offline right now, but we'll sign out. Thanks for coming on Theology in a Row. Yeah, man.