Theology in the Raw - S8 Ep896: Engaging the LGBTQ Conversation with Messy Grace and Truth: Dr. Caleb Kaltenbach

Episode Date: August 26, 2021

Caleb Kaltenbach is a pastor and founder of The Messy Grace Group where he helps churches love and foster community with LGBTQ individuals without sacrificing theological convictions. He's the author of God of Tomorrow and Messy Grace (where he discusses being raised in the LGBTQ community, following Jesus, and how loving others doesn’t require shifting beliefs), and the recently released Messy Truth: How to Foster Community without Sacrificing Conviction, which is the content of our podcast conversation.  Besides speaking, writing, and consulting, Caleb has been guest with or featured in The New York Times, Fox and Friends, The Glenn Beck Show, The Eric Metaxas Show, Christianity Today, Focus on the Family, Family Life Today, Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast, Church Leaders Podcast, The 700 Club, unSeminary Podcast, Moody radio shows, Q Ideas Podcast, Dallas Seminary Table Podcast, and more.   A graduate of Ozark Christian College, Talbot School of Theology (Biola University), he received his doctorate from Dallas Theological Seminary. In addition to having served as a lead pastor and associate pastor, Caleb has served on the boards of ministries and colleges. He and his family live in Southern California. Faith, Sexuality, and Gender Conference - Live in Boise or Stream Online In the all-day conference, Dr. Preston Sprinkle dives deep into the theological, relational, and ministry-related questions that come up in the LGBTQ conversation. Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Twitter | @RawTheology Instagram | @TheologyintheRaw Check out Dr. Sprinkle’s website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. We got a few events coming up on the LGBTQ conversation. I will be in Plano, Texas, October 7th at the Revoice Pre-Conference. And also here in Boise, we're going to have a two-day conference on October 20th and 21st. It's called the Faith, Sexuality, and Gender Conference. You can come to Boise to be a part of that live, or you can register to stream it online. All the information is at centerforfaith.com forward slash events. That's centerforfaith.com forward slash events. All the info is in the show notes. Also, if you would like to support the show, you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw support show for as little as five bucks a month

to get access to the theology in the raw community. I have on the show today, my good friend, Caleb Kaltenbach back again. I think this is the third time on the show today, my good friend, Caleb Kaltenbach, back again. I think this is his third time on the show. He was on just a few months ago talking about the Equality Act. This time, Caleb and I talk about his recently released book, Messy Truth, which is kind of a companion book to his first book, Messy Grace, which is an absolutely outstanding book. So I hope you enjoy this conversation. We talk a lot about how to engage LGBTQ people, how to think through the tension of grace and truth, which Caleb says the tension is love. Love is the thing that brings together

both grace and truth. So I think you're really going to enjoy this conversation. Let's welcome back to the show, the one and only Caleb Kaltenbach. All right. Hey, friends. I'm back here with my good friend, Caleb Kaltenbach, who has written another awesome book. You might know Caleb by the book, Messy Grace. Or if you're a listener to the podcast, you might remember Caleb and I talked about the Equality Act a few months ago, which if you're interested in that conversation, I would highly recommend it. I don't know the episode number, but I think we did that back in maybe February or March. Caleb, wasn't that it? Maybe four or five months ago. But anyway, thanks for being back on the podcast to talk about your latest book, Messy Truth. Thanks for having me, man. Yeah.

I love being here. So I'm going to assume people are aware of your book, Messy Grace. I mean, I'll just, I'm a huge fan. If you haven't read Messy Grace and you're interested in the sexuality conversation, which if you're a human living in 2021, you should be interested at the very least in the sexuality conversation. Caleb's book, Messy Grace, is absolutely fantastic. So highly recommend it. It's not just informative. It's just hard to put down.

I mean, your ability to share stories, your wording, your rhetoric and everything. It's just a really engaging book. But that's Messy Grace. And you just came out with a book called Messy Truth. Let's begin by talking about what are the differences? Why the need for Messy Truth? What kind of void is this filling? I'm assuming there was something that you felt like you needed to say that you didn't say in Messy Grace. So tell us how these two books kind of interact with each other. Yeah. So kind of the bottom line or the main point of Messy Grace is that obviously, like everybody says, that there is a tension that we feel between grace and truth. And I make the point that that tension that we feel between grace and

truth is love, that love is the tension that we feel between grace and truth. And so I felt like there was a lot of truth and grace in Messy Grace, probably leaning more on the grace side. But then again, one of the points I make in Messy Truth is that love your neighbor is just as much truth as when Jesus says, don't don't take revenge, don't kill, don't slap somebody upside the head, that kind of thing. And so I wrote Messy Grace where it's more about a person's individual relationships, their personal relationships with LGBTQ friends and family. And then I wrote Messy Truth because I felt like I was missing the community aspect of it.

I really, really was like, OK, I think people find and follow Jesus better in community, not in isolation. And yet there are so many churches that I work with, that you've worked with, I know, and leaders you've talked to with really good, well-intentioned, well-meaning people and leaders. But, you know, they're like, man, well-meaning people and leaders. But they're like, man, I don't want to go too far. And then what if we compromise our doctrine and so on and so forth? And I was just motivated by the fact that I wanted to help people have really good conversations, grow in their empathy, and stay firm to their convictions. And because I think that that is a recipe for great community. And the book is really oriented towards helping people

understand how to get their LGBTQ friends and family connected to a Christ-centered, redemptive community. And so I would say that's the difference. One's about personal relationships, the other one is about community. So Messy Truth isn't like a sustained theological defense of marriage and sexuality. It's more, how can a church, how can an ecclesiological community or just a Christian community hold to a Christian view of sexuality and marriage and yet welcome and help people flourish who are attracted to the same sex? Would that be a, it's more, it's almost an ecclesiological book. Would that be accurate? I think that's accurate. And it's also written from the standpoint of you personally as well. How can you help others around you to grow in their empathy? How can you lead them? How do you measure your credibility to see if you have the character to be able to walk with somebody and not trip them up?

Like the last third of the book is devoted to how do you have a difficult conversation without shaming people, where you can dialogue and share things and so on and so forth. So some of the book is more ecclesiological, has more of an ecclesiological so forth. So some of the book is more ecclesiological, has more of an ecclesiological focus. And then some of the book has, again, still an ecclesiological focus, but from the reader, their perspective, how can I help them get plugged in and what can I do to help set up that meeting

between them and the Lord? Can you give us, let's just dive in then, like what are some, and you can start wherever you want, the last third, first third, middle third, like what are some like main pieces of advice that you're going to, that you give that you find are kind of the big, like the most significant ones? Like if you could pick the top five pieces of advice you give in the book, what would those be? Well, I guess i should have an order but in no particular order and i'll start from the end um i talked about the difference between guides guides and gatekeepers okay um i took the idea guide from john rich's book epic

but then also from donald miller's book uh story brand you. And I didn't plagiarize, but I'm building upon it where I'm like, a guide is more powerful than the hero and the hero arc and the hero narrative, right? Because the guide has been where the hero has been, and the guide is helping them, and the hero is supposed to be following, like Obi-Wan Kenobi, Yoda, Luke, Mr. Miyagi, Daniel-san, Gandalf, and everybody else, and so on and so forth. And so I try to encourage people to be guides because we have a lot of gatekeepers. And, you know, anytime somebody follows Jesus, you keep walking forward. You don't stop.

But when you're a gatekeeper, you do stop. And you just kind of hang there. And you're not leading anybody. You're just kind of a stalwart right there. And so I encourage people to be guides when it comes to conversations. One of the things that I really try to help people to think through is to be intentional. If you have to have a difficult conversation, you've got to be intentional. If you have to have a difficult conversation, you've got to be intentional.

That means if you know that you're going to have a conversation where you're going to share what you believe or, more importantly than that, share Jesus, you've got to think about things like how will this person hear it the best? What time of the day is better? What kind of words would trigger them? What is the goal of the conversation? When they leave, what do I hope will happen? How do I want them feeling when they leave? So on and so forth. A lot of conversations, as you well know, do not go well when somebody wants to share what they believe or, more importantly, share Jesus. It doesn't go well because people are not intentional.

And I think we serve a very intentional God that has a plan. I mean, Galatians, right? In the fullness of time, God sent his son. And so God does have a plan. So I think well-timed conversations are incredibly important. And then I'll just throw one more in cause I'm talking too much, but, um, I really spend a lot of time about the idea of belongingness in the first century, in the first century church.

And the fact that, uh, you had the church there in these different cities, but especially in Corinth, um, and you probably had a high percentage of unbelievers there, just with how much Paul talked about unbelievers, and even the whole chapter where he talks about tongues, and he says, when the whole church gathers together, don't speak in tongues. If an unbeliever is in your midst, will they not think you're out of your mind? My whole aspect there is not to say that all LGBTQ people are unbelievers, not at all. But I'm saying that if Paul was asking the church to be that intentional with unbelievers, how much more intentional should we be with the people of our day?

That's good. That's good. And this might be for people who haven't read your first book or really engage this conversation in much depth. But what are some basic assumptions that straight, let's just say conservative Christians, what are some basic things they should understand as they seek to be intentional with somebody who is same-sex attracted, LGBTQ, Christian, non-Christian, whatever? What are some basic big picture things that that straight conservative person, maybe a parent, maybe somebody who just has a friend that came out, whatever, what are some things they should try to understand as they seek to be intentional in relationship? It's a great question. Here's some things I would say. Number one,

the vast majority of LGBTQ people are not extremists. They've never been to a rally. They've never been to a parade. They've never been to a bar or a club. They want to live their lives and be left alone. They're just as frustrated at the government and Nickelback as anybody else. Nickelback. Yeah, the band. We're all frustrated at Nickelback.

Anytime they produce a song. Anyway, so, yeah. They don't like The Last Jedii either i mean they're they're they're people like that they're average everyday people um you know and some of them may be in same-sex relationships but uh there there are lgbtq people in same-sex relationships where that is not their main world view that is not their main identity um so so we can't make assumptions and think that well if somebody if somebody comes out, that automatically means they're getting in a relationship. That automatically means this. That automatically

means that they're now an extremist on whatever side. And that's just not true. Because there are, as you well know, gay people who are very, very ultra conservative Republicans as well. So it's kind of like there's no one mold. So I mean, I'd say that's the first thing. The second thing, one of the things I talk about in the book, is that we have to understand, and I probably simplify it too much, but I'm trying to make it simple for people to understand. And I realized that there's a lot more depth in what I'm saying here. But that there are really three different types of people. Number one, there are people that have experience with LGBTQ. That would be people who are straight, opposite sex attracted, you know, who are not sexual minorities. You and me,

and probably a majority of your listeners, and I don't say that to impugn, I'm just saying there's a reason why sexual minorities are called sexual minorities, because the vast majority is heteronormative of individuals. So number two, there are people who relate to LGBTQ. These are individuals where LGBTQ is not their main identity. It is not their main worldview. They might be celibate out of their theological convictions. They might have gender dysphoria and choose not to get medical assistance that would shift their identity in some way or another. They might end up going into a same-sex relationship, but they relate to LGBTQ because they don't see it as their main identity.

And then there are people who identify as LGBTQ. And in the book, I say these are the individuals where it takes the most intentionality when you talk about different aspects of sexuality, and especially Jesus. Because their whole identity is wrapped into LGBTQ in some way, shape, or form, whether it's within the community, whether it's the work they do, or whatever it is, anytime you disagree with that, they see it as an attack on their identity. And so you got to understand where they're coming from. And I try to make the argument that that's why I think it's phenomenal to have your main identity, your primary identity, being the Lord Jesus Christ, because he takes your identity and he protects it. It's safe with him. It allows you to be an ordinary person through whom which God can do extraordinary things.

And so that's kind of what I try to help people understand is that there are people that we do interact with who identify. And the reason why people get so mad, the reason why people say, if you don't agree with me, get out of my life, is because you've stepped on their identity and they feel like they have to protect it. And when you step on their identity, they take it personally and they're like, you're attacking me. And we're thinking, what? I didn't say anything about you. So when you say step on their identity, can you unpack that? How do people do that? Because I would imagine there's a lot of times that happens unintentionally just by the words we use,

our posture, our approach, what we say, don't say. Can you help us understand what that could look like? I think you unintentionally step on somebody's identity when you are talking with them maybe about life, about beliefs, about politics. And then you start sharing that, hey, I don't agree with the concept of same-sex relationships. Theologically, I don't agree. But I feel like people should have the right to do that because it's law. but I feel like people should have the right to do that because it's law. Because you said you don't agree, there are some people who will say, okay, so you're shutting me down completely.

This comprises the main part of who I am, and you're shutting me down completely. You accidentally step on somebody's identity when somebody comes out to you and you start trying to do things like instead of listening, what you should do, you start trying to do things like throwing Bible verses at them, having a biblical discussion in that moment, trying to get them counseling, getting upset, making it about you. It's not about you. It's about that. It's about them. It's about you listening to them. Because when it comes down to it, one of the biggest points that I make in this book is that we are fighting for influence. All throughout our society, there is a war of ideas going on. And especially with my kids and your kids. My kids are 14 and 12, and I know you have kids, and I am well aware that there are so many different entities and people out there that are fighting for influence

over my kids. And same thing with friends and people in my congregation. And so I want to do whatever I can short of sinning to keep and build influence with someone. Because the more influence that I have, the more of a chance that when life hits the bottom of the barrel, I'm going to be one of the first calls or texts that they make. And that's really what I'm shooting for is influence. That's a great phrase, fighting for influence. And you have to say fighting, not just, hey, we're influential, whatever, but like, there's competing voices of influence that are trying to nudge our way into people's lives. Um, and we need to be strategic in how to do that. That's, that's a great phrase. Um,

yeah. One of the things I say in the very beginning of the book, you know, I kind of give an example. You know, I think that there are good reasons for people attending or not attending a same-sex wedding. And a lot of it probably depends on who's getting married. And I'll just be completely honest and put my cards on the table. I don't like attending any wedding. I don't like heterosexual weddings. I don't like opposite or same-sex weddings. They eat on the table. I don't like attending any wedding. I don't like heterosexual weddings. I don't like opposite or same sex weddings. They eat up the day. The food is usually pretty bad.

You have to wear uncomfortable clothes and you have to deal with mother-in-laws. So very rarely will you find me doing a wedding. If I know the person, I'll do it. But they probably heard me say this and they don't want me to and I don't blame them. You know, I would rather attend video conference to a wedding and then you're done. I mean, that's just me. That's pretty low right there, video conference. Yeah, exactly. So my whole thing is this. I have people that ask me, should I go to my son or my daughter or my friend's wedding, my nephew, my niece, my grandson, granddaughter's wedding. And I'll usually ask them two or three questions. I'll say, okay, if you did not go, would you lose influence with them? Yes. Okay. Second question. What would you do to be able to keep and build influence in the life of your child, in the life of your grandchild, in the life of your child, in the life of your grandchild,

in the life of your niece or nephew, what would you give? How far would you go to be able to earn the right to be one of the first people they text or call when life hits the bottom of the barrel? Like for me, I'm going to charge the gates of hell with a squirt gun. I'm going to charge the gates of hell with a squirt gun. And so for me, it's all about influence. And you've got to listen. Sometimes people, you know, they'll start opening up to you when they start trusting you. And they feel like you have influence.

Like, for instance, you've got to listen for phrases like, I never thought this would happen. Things aren't going well. I never thought they would leave. Things aren't going well. I never thought they would leave. Why are they doing this? I've never been in this position before. Future seems so uncertain. And again, you don't look for those opportunities to say, well, this is what I believe about sex. No, you're a creeper then. No, you listen for those opportunities to be able to share about Jesus and the hope that you have in him. And so that's why I say influence matters. Yeah. The wedding thing, and to add to this, because some people might say, yes, I want to have influence, but I'm not going to sacrifice my convictions. Namely, I'm not going to sin to do that. So that raises the other question. Is it a sin to attend a wedding of somebody who is not following the Bible standard of what marriage is?

And there, at the very least, it's a gray area. I mean, there's no verse in Leviticus or something or Num numbers tucked away that says thou shalt not attend a gay wedding or whatever. So once you acknowledge that it is, this is a gray area. If you're like just, your conscience won't let you go, you're tormented. I mean, I would still ask the question, is that the spirit or some presupposition you're holding on to? And that's something between you and God you got to sort out. But if it's not sin, then the influence question, I think, is all the more meaningful. I do too. And I think that's kind of a Romans 14 issue a little bit too, depending on how well you know the person. I'd say that. That, um, and there are some times when people ask me that question and their kids don't want them to go.

They love their parents, so they love their friend, but they're just like, I know we're not on the same page and I don't want to be upset. So, you know, and they're not taking it personally, but if they actually went, that would cause an issue. Um, and, and I think you can go to a wedding and not, uh, celebrate the union, but you can report the person. You can say things like, thank you for inviting me. Uh, I'm glad to be with you. I'm in your corner. Um, I'm always here. I love you. That kind of a thing. Yeah. Um, and here's, and here's one last thing I'll say is that, um, dude, how, how many, how many weddings have people gone to where somebody is getting remarried? Cause I got divorced. Like, you know, I mean, I have all the respect in the world for, uh, people that have to do hard jobs, even County clerks. But I still remember when that one lady, and I'm not trying

to make light of her, I'm just pointing this out. And this one lady said, you know, I cannot issue these marriage certificates for same-sex weddings. And I immediately thought, how many certificates did she issue for unbiblical divorces? She kind of had no way of knowing, but still. And again, I'm not trying to shame people that are divorced and remarried. That's not my point. But my point is, is I think we need to be a little bit more gracious. We don't need to lighten up on what scripture says, but when it comes to our engagement with people, I think we need to be a bit more gracious. Well, it's a consistency piece too, right? I mean, if somebody said, I have a personal policy that I only attend weddings that match God's design for marriage. So no remarriage after divorce or adultery or whatever.

No believer-unbeliever weddings. I mean, my gosh, how extensive is that prohibited in Scripture? If you have that policy, I only go to celebrate two Christians getting married with no prior... Like it actually matches God's ultimate vision for what marriage is. Then I could respect that. I would still raise the influence question and maybe push back a little bit. But if somebody is perfectly consistent, then I'm like, okay, I can appreciate the consistency.

It's when people are very inconsistent, like what you're saying, is when it's like that's just like, that's just like, why would you, do you make it a combination for this and not this? Like that just doesn't, that just looks, looks like you're, you're, it just, yeah, it just. You're standing up for your opinion more than taking a stand for God's word, quote unquote. You're just using God's word as an excuse. That's the way I look at it. One other thing, if I can throw this in here that I talk about in the book, and I'm sure you've seen this too, Preston, that there are people that can have two different opinions on the same issue. Like marriage is a perfect example. There are people who, like, you know, you see these polls where it says support for same-sex marriage is higher than ever, 60%, 70%, whatever.

Like I have no doubt, but also you look at how the polls are written and the questions on the polls, number one. Number two, I've never gotten one of these calls. Nobody ever calls me for anything, nothing. Like I never get any poll calls, and I don't want them either. I don't. But still. But like you think about it and the more that I'm interacting with people around North America and I'm sure you're the same. More than what I thought, a theologically conservative view of marriage, even in the young generation, but they have a different civil view on marriage. Like this is my theological view on it, but I think that because it's legal, somebody should have the right to do it. I don't know that I would ever recommend somebody doing this, but I don't think that it should be illegal or whatever. But theologically, I don't agree with it.

Have you found any of that as you're interacting with people? Yeah, absolutely. I get that question quite a bit. Can we hold to a theological Christian view of marriage and yet still – and here's where the language gets tricky, like support or tolerate or be okay with or vote for or vote against. What is our participation? What is our posture toward our secular society? And that's a bigger question about the intersection between church and state and so on. And on the one hand, the way I've personally worked through it, well, my answer to people's question is I think there's some flexibility.

I don't think there's one right answer to it. The way I think through it is I do think that God's design is good for all of creation. So I think it's best for people creating God's image to follow the creator's design for how he's wired creation. I think that's best. I agree. I agree. And yet we are, on the other hand, we're exiles living in Babylon. So I don't expect Babylonians to have a Yahweh-centered worldview.

So like when the SCOTUS decision happened in 2015, I could, on the one hand, say, I don't think that's the best way to live in God's creation. And yet I kind of yawned like, well, it's about time Babylon was consistent with Babylonian values. Like why wouldn't they, you know, and not if, but when polyamorous marriages are solidified because there's no logic that prevents, you know, why too? If it's consensual, it doesn't hurt anybody. If that's the ethic we're going by, then it's in the near future when polyamorous marriages will be sanitized. And I'll yawn again. I'll say, thank you, Babylon, for being consistent. I don't think this is the best route to go. I don't think this is going to contribute to human flourishing. But I'm also not surprised when Babylonians live out Babylonian values. Yeah. Isn't that what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 5?

Yeah. Why would you judge the world? And again, I don't think that he's affirming or validating anything that's happening in Corinth. Because like, you know, you know, this, the name Corinth literally means to fornicate, right? In the original language, isn't that true? Well, pornea is fornicate, Corinth. I don't know the derivation of Corinth, actually. But anyway, yeah. I read in a commentary the other day that it was, and then I saw a retirement bus drive by that said Corinthian living. And I'm like, wow, how about that? Yeah, exactly. Not there. Yeah. Not there. But you're right. It's like,

it's like, it's like, why would you, there, there needs to be consistency. And I think there needs to be consistency, you know, as much as we can within ourselves. But I think that that falls within our character. that tension they feel between grace and truth will always fail. You need to quit balancing it, and you need to get used to feeling uncomfortable over and over and over again. And we need to understand that part of the reason why the Pharisees hated Jesus was because he was gracious when they expected him to be truthful, and he was truthful when they expected him to be gracious. And I think we should have consistency in our character, the way we treat people. But we do need to leave room for, in what I call in the book, intentional ambiguity. We do have to make room for that and allow people to work out their salvation of fear and trembling, and then also work out their views as well. Yeah. Caleb, what do you do? I'm getting this question a lot more recently with how polarized everything is. I would say in the past when, and I'm thinking in particular of

Christian parents who have an LGBT kid who is either not a Christian or is affirming. And in the past, it's like if the parent was kind and listening and just caring and just nice and agree to disagree, the relationship went typically from okay to good. But I'm seeing more and more in the last couple of years where if there isn't full affirmation of basically everything the person believes, whatever, then that relationship is deemed toxic. Like either you're all in or you're not in at all. Are you seeing an increase in that kind of polarized, those polarized kind of options? And how do you counsel somebody? This is the question I get is like, what do I do? My, you know, my 15 year old daughter says, if I don't a hundred percent support her, you know, transition or her identity, whatever, then I'm toxic. And I, she doesn't want me anywhere near her. How do I communicate? How do I get over that? I really don't know. I don't have a good answer for that because that deals with a deep down kind of just

worldview that's, it's hard to overcome, overcome or at least haven't found a good response. I don't know if you've encountered that and if you have any words of wisdom on how people can navigate that. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. It's difficult, especially when we live in a society that overvalues feelings and reactions and undervalues logic and truth. And we see that happening over and over and over again.

There's this us versus them mentality. I have a friend who's writing a book on politics right now. A Christian friend, it's going to come out probably sometime next year. Can you say who it is or what it's about or not? No, I can't say who it is, but there are a lot of illustrations in there about conservative extremists. And one of the points that I made was, you know, hey, I think that's all well, fine and good. But here's the thing. You need to include some examples of extremist progressives in there, because especially this time next year, midterms 2022, you're going to see more of that. And I see a lot of progressive Christians and just people who are in progressive politics in general, they are repeating the same mistake that the Christian coalition did in the moral majority

of the 80s and 90s, where they were putting so much of their investment into policy change and voting and elected officials. And eventually they're going to crash. Eventually it's not going to go well and the pendulum is going to swing the other way. But for right now, and this probably always been this way, it just feels this way right now, especially because the volume is turned up on emotions and reactions. the volume is turned up on emotions and reactions. And so I struggle with that because it's almost like we have to think about in the way that Paul does in 1 Corinthians 9, 19, I've become all things to all people. You meet people where they're at. Sometimes that conversation doesn't go well with parents because the parents are trying to be logical and the kid that came out is very emotional.

Two ships passing. Come down here. But some of the times the kids are like this and it's like if you do not, then – and I think a couple things in those situations. Number one, it's obviously subjective. And it depends on the situation and you're right there is a tremendous amount of complexity in there especially when you look at the family as a system and so it needs to be waded through very very carefully number two i would say this in in those moments when people say things like that, the less you say, the better,

the less you say, the less you say, the better. Okay. The less you say, the better, like the more you say, I love you. The more you say, really? Okay. I, you know, I, I understand what, I understand that you're very upset about this. Um, but you need to know that I love you no matter what. No matter what your feelings might be telling you right now about me, I love you. I would say the third thing to do is to ask questions, really good questions. Like because, you know, especially when people are amped up, like questions, they engage another part of your mind. They kind of bring down your guard a little bit. I have found that when people are really mad at me, they're usually three or four questions away from telling me what's really going on in their life, what they're really mad at. And

I'm not saying that I didn't do something stupid or something to trigger it or something like that. But if they're really mad and their reaction is not matching the circumstance, there's something else going on. And so asking questions really, really helps. You know, like if a child says, Hey, you know, if you don't agree with this part, you're toxic, you know, and you're treating me horribly and that's abusive and so on and so forth. I think one of the best questions a parent can ask, and again, you got to measure your credibility too. But I think the best question a parent can ask, or even a friend, if you have a friend doing that to you is to say, you know what, I'm really, really sorry that I've made you feel this way.

That was not my intention. Could you help me to understand in the past when I made you feel this way. That was not my intention. Could you help me to understand in the past when I made you feel this way? Could you help me understand how I've done that, you know, in the past? Because usually you haven't. And usually when somebody comes out to you, there's a fairly good chance you probably already knew or were suspicious of it. Not always the case. Sometimes it's a surprise, but I, I, there have been so many times when somebody has come out to me and they're like, this must be quite a shock to you. And I'm just listening, but in my head, I'm like, Nope, not a shock at all. Um, you know, so I think that, I think that drawing back on, if you have a good relationship with that person, drawing back on, on your relationship from the past, say, help me

understand how I've made you feel that way, you know, before. And if I haven't, why do you think I'm all of a sudden shifting right now and making you feel this way right now? You know, I've known this about you for a while. You know, questions like that. I have a whole section in the book on questions. I have like a chapter where I list like 80 questions that groups and families and teams should be asking each other and that kind of thing. That's good. And like you said, it's the nature of the question, too, because there's like interrogative questions or there's rhetorical questions cornering questions or there's genuine like you you have to have all the way down to facial expressions and your tone you have to be

and it comes down to your heart you have to be genuinely 100 actually interested in this aspect of the person and that's why you're asking the question, right? You're not trying to bend the conversation. You're not trying to make a point. You're not being Socratic. You're not trying to, you know, lead them to a place where contradictions and illogic or logic are exposed. You're trying to actually find out

a certain aspect of the person because you are genuinely inquisitive and interested. And they can sense that, right? I mean, that's something any human, most humans can just pick up right away what kind of question it is. That's why the second half of the book is devoted to empathy. How do you build empathy with people? How do you lead people to empathy? Because empathy, I talk about how empathy is not rejecting somebody.

It is not agreeing with their opinions. It is not signing off on their worldview. It's not approving of whatever relationship choice they may have next to somebody. And that's what empathy is, where you walk miles next to somebody. And when something like that happens, hopefully you're to a point where you know them well enough, where you know how to be empathetic. And it really costs you nothing to acknowledge a person's reality, or as Brene Brown says, to feel with another person in that moment. Um, and so I think that that, um, you're absolutely right. And that's why questions in that moment, you're not in a courtroom, you're not a litigator, you know, you're, you're not talking to the IRS, nothing like that. They've got to be open ended, turning upward questions, you know, where you're trying to not only get them to think deeper about your

relationship. If you actually want to have more of a conversation with them, you got to bring the emotion, the tension down, you know, so they've got to be turning up. You know, what's the hardest for me, I'm just going to be totally honest and confess is, is when people have, and this goes for whether you're super conservative, super progressive, whatever airtight kind of echo chamber you want to live in. That is so unhealthy, unrealistic, dangerous. It's not going to lead to happiness. You cannot live in a free society and have that kind of view. I don't know if you saw that South Park skit on safe spaces that came out

a while ago. Have you seen that? You got to Google that. Yeah. Okay. Everybody needs to Google that pretty soon. South Park safe space. And it's just kind of a parody on on on that kind of way of thinking there's a there's a halfway through the the evil villain comes out and you know this person's in her safe space padded walls and everybody loves being then the evil guy comes out and he goes my name is reality you know i'm writing that down right now yo no no no you. You'll watch it several times and hopefully you'll tweet it. I mean, it's politically incorrect like South Park typically is. And I don't – there's people that have been through genuine trauma where certain words can truly trigger up some serious trauma. So I don't want to downplay people who have been

through that. And yeah. Um, but I think, I don't know if you've read, uh, the coddling of the American mind, Jonathan Haidt. And, uh, so you read that book and the, and then when you, it's almost like you want to download that message into the mind of everybody, because you're, you realize that this kind of hyper safetysafetyism where if you're around people that disagree with you, it's like people don't know how to handle that. That is a very unhealthy, unhappy way to live. So all that to say, when I encountered this kind of polarized posture where people are like, I can't be around people that disagree with anything about what I'm doing. It's like, it's just kind of, it both triggers like frustration and also sadness in me. Cause I'm like, man, it's, I'm frustrated that can't you see why this is not a good way to live.

And also sadness of like, this is not your, it's gonna almost always leads to all kinds of anxiety, depression, suicidality, and other things, because that's not reality. Like South Park says, you know, you can't, unless you just lock yourself up in your room or just, you know, cause the second you get a tweet or an Instagram or somebody doesn't like your post or whatever, you just, you can't function. And like, that's not, we're becoming so fragile. Um, and that's just not a healthy way to live, but no, no, it's not. And it's, it's really pride when you think about it. Um, you know, there's all there's pride where you think you're just the best thing in the world.

Then there's pride where you think the worst of yourself or you really try to protect yourself so much that you won't engage and interact with other people. And God didn't make you and create you to be an island to yourself. And again, you and I both would affirm that for some people, there are some really, really honestly abusive or toxic people in their life. And there needs to be a lot of distance. And in some cases, the relationship needs to be shut off, depending on the abuse or the toxicity or that kind of thing. But those are few and far between compared to what we're talking about, you know, for our whole

manner. And that's why I love Jonathan Haidt and just what he says. And I think he drives both conservatives and liberals, especially liberals, nuts, because he still teaches at New York University. And he's the one, I think, in that same book who said that we don't need to disagree better as a society. We need to learn how to disagree. Sorry, we don't need to disagree less. We need to disagree better as a society. I remember he wrote that in The Calling of the American Modern. We don't need to disagree less, like what everybody's saying.

Let's just disagree less. He's like, no, we need to learn how to disagree better because if you disagree less, you eliminate dialogue. Right, right. Yeah. And that's when it comes back to the person who wants to eliminate anybody in their life that disagrees with some aspect of how they're living, their identity, whatever. It's just not, it's just, it's, it's it's it's i i know parents are just can be so frustrated because they're like i can't like how can you place those kind of demands on all relationships in your life like it's not healthy or realistic and man um eventually you're going to crash and again goes back to influence yeah when somebody crashes, somebody who's acting like that will eventually hit the bottom of the barrel.

Something will happen. They will rock their world completely. And when that happens, I hope to have enough influence to be there for that person. Where they see me as a person to turn to. And that's when you can really leverage your influence for the sake of Jesus. Is that helpful to say, like, if you're in that moment with a kid, and it's not just a kid, I mean, we could keep using parent-kid examples. It could be a friend. If they're drawing that line, and like you said, speak less, listen more, ask questions if you do speak. Do you find it to be

helpful to even tell, to almost plant that seed ahead of time saying, hey, look, I totally want to respect your space. I would love, love to be in relationship with you. But if that's not something you want, I want to respect that. But I want you to know that if you ever do want to revisit this relationship, I would love to come back into your life. And if you ever need anything, I call me any time of the day, night, whatever. And I will be there for you. Is that, do you think that could be helpful to kind of plant that seed? So not if, but when they do kind of crash, they know, I think this person's. Yeah, it's the same. Yeah. and i think that works better with friends than with

kids okay like that would be hard for me to tell my kids hey if you want out on my life then just go ahead i mean and i'm not saying that there are times when you shouldn't say that but i think that should be the last option but i know what you're saying you're saying especially with friends i kind of like there's a there's a i mean you've been an elder in a church before you've been a church leader. So you understand what I'm getting ready to say. And especially having lived in Southern California, you get this that I don't know how it is in Boise where you're at. But out here, if you remember, church hopping is a sport like it should be an Olympic sport, you you know in 2024 or whenever the next summer olympics are because people hop from church to church to church to church to church all the time and i

found that as a pastor if uh it's always the people that you seem to like the most some of the times they'll leave and or somebody wants to to be buddy, buddy, and they end up taking off. I have found that if you just let people leave, it is easier for them to come back to church if they want to. If somebody is backing off on a relationship and I address it and I'm like, I want to make sure I didn't do anything. And they're like, no,

um, the worst things that I've done in my life is to try to get people to stay in my life. Because there are certain types of people in our life, there are lifelong friends and seasonal friends, you get in big trouble when you try to make a seasonal friend into a lifelong friend. And if somebody wants to walk out of your life, let them go. Because again, if they come back, they're going to remember how gracious you were when they left. And they're like, he's going to be the same. I think that's why the prodigal son felt comfortable to return. He saw how gracious his father was to him when he left. If his father

had been harsh, do you think the prodigal son would be raring to run back to him? Maybe, but probably not. But he probably remembered the grace that the father had when he left. That's so good. Yeah, the father let him leave. Because you can't force a genuine relationship. By definition, it's a two-way street, right? I mean, it's two people wanting to be in a relationship. There could be tension, disagreement, arguments, but there has to be some kind of desire on both ends to want to be in a relationship. There could be tension, disagreement, arguments, but there has to be some kind of desire on both ends to want to be in a relationship. Yeah, I can't control them.

Right. I can control me. I can control them. Well, to kind of shift gears a little bit, this is the hard thing that I've had when it comes to community in general. Because I'll hear i just heard the other day somebody say you know you need to find community you know get involved get a community you know and and and i 100 agree with that on paper but

what does that mean to find community that by definition that community must also reciprocate. Like I want, I long for this kind of, you know, book of acts, first century church, brother, sisterhood kind of community. But I haven't always found it, even though I desire it because somebody else has to want it too and they have to want me to be part of that community and be able to live that out in the way that it's intended you know um and if yeah i don't know that's a but don't you think that's also and i'm not making an excuse preston but don't you think that's also sometimes hard to find in Western culture. Yeah. As opposed to near Eastern culture, you know, as opposed to, um, just the trends and, um, the values and, uh, that kind of thing that you have in the Middle East, the Near East, as compared to the United States. Yeah. You know, I mean, you go to my wife spent a semester in Spain when she was at school at Westmont and she was shocked at, I mean, you go to my wife spent a semester in Spain when she was at school at Westmont and she was shocked.

I mean, not shocked anymore. But as a college student, how many people kissed each other on the cheek over and over and over again? And like personal space is not a big issue. Apparently, I'm sure it is right now. It's a big issue anywhere. But in regular years, it isn't. But then you come over here, you sit too close to somebody they're like yeah dude you know so um again i'm not making an excuse but i i long for that too um and i feel

and i've always felt like there's a fine line between finding true community like what we see in acts 2 and a cult you, where you do everything together. You know, it's just like, I mean, if they ever say, Preston, come live in the dormitory, I think you should get out. Come live in this compound. We have barbed wire. Yeah. Here are some white tennis shoes.

Yeah. I would pull the eject cord. No, that's true. And I don't know. I mean, I know this is more of an ecclesiological conversation, but that's pushing against the tide of Western culture. How do you – you can tweak it. You can manipulate it.

You can try to get around it. But there's that rubber band effect that people are going to, me included. I'm part of Western culture. That's how I was raised. I can't separate that from me, even though I long for something kind of different. It's just so embedded into everything we do. And even our church structures reflect that too. I mean, it's just, it's hard. Absolutely. During the pandemic, when there are certain people who remain nameless, because we probably know them, but we both know them. But there are certain people who would say, yeah, I think big church gatherings are probably going to be a thing of the past. Oh, I think the megachurch, you know, it's not going to happen anymore.

I'm like, you are a crack smoker. That is just not going to happen anymore i'm like you are a crack smoker that is just not going to happen whatsoever first of all um welcome to north america like we love big events that's why we go to movie theaters second of all let's go over to rome right let's go 200s 300s 400s gladiator games coliseum, so on and so forth. They even like big crowds back then. Even after the Spanish flu, they start gathering again. I'm not saying the pandemic won't have an effect on how some crowds are handled and that kind of thing. But it's hard to go against the grain of Western culture or whatever culture you're in.

That just, when you said that, that kind of clicked for me. And I was like, yeah, you're right. It's difficult. Yeah. Yeah. No, yeah. I mean, this is why, you know, I'm sympathetic to Francis Chan and others who, you know, kind of say, I think we need to go strip this thing down to the very foundations and rebuild it.

strip this thing down to the very foundations and rebuild it because there's so many things in in the way we do church that do reflect and foster kind of this western individualism that it's hard to kind of like you know and i agree and i'm not and i'm not making fun or just and i know you know this but i want to say this for the benefit of anybody listening and watching i when i when i said crack spunker, I am not making fun of or trying to say, well, if you're in a small church or this kind of church or that kind of church, then you're not in a real church. I was just making the point that big crowds are not going away. Probably like you, I celebrate churches of all sizes. I do. I really do, yeah. And I think some of the times megachurches can get picked on pretty easily because they're a big target.

But I know some really healthy megachurches and I know some really toxic small churches. That's exactly what I was going to say. I've been in small churches that, I mean, you can be there for a while and there's no real genuine community. Like people show up, smile. It's easier to kind of have superficial talk, you know, conversations with each other. But if they're not longing for the same thing we're longing for, you can maintain superficiality. I mean, there's families. I know that obviously living together, there's families, you know, and then like, hey, so tell me about your conversations.

And they don't talk about a lot of things. A lot of things are off limits that are just below the surface of you know so just just being in a small gathering doesn't in and of itself guarantee in-depth authentic relationships it typically is probably easier to get there but it can't guarantee it and yeah there's mega churches where people feel way more plugged in because of certain structure you know certain things the megachurch has done to kind of foster that. But yeah, it's hard. But at the end of the day, whatever the size of the gathering, we're all part of the same thing called Western culture that just wars against that kind of thing. And ultimately, we have to remember it's about His glory, not about my preference.

it's about his glory yeah um not about my preference right um you know so yeah that that's where i think this whole idea of community is so important and i love how you said you know people go out and find community well i think community should go out and find people i mean people say that hey you come find community come find community. Okay. Well, people already have that. Yeah. People have Starbucks. People have families. People have maybe good relationships in their neighborhood. People have good relationships. Um,

even on social media with people. I mean, just whatever, what kind of community can the local church offer that other places can't? Like, that's a question that should be asking. And don't treat people like they're like wanderers in the desert like you have no community but you're here uh no dude i have a lot of friends they're not christian but i have a lot of friends so anyway hey before

we close let's go back to your book real quick are there is there anything in the book that you would love to uh highlight piece of advice a story story, something they're like, man, if you read this book, Messy Truth, what are some big takeaways you'd love people to walk away with? Something that we haven't talked about already. Yeah. In the very first chapter, I talk about, and this has happened seven times since I've been consulting with churches. I talk about a church I was consulting with the very first time where they had two married lesbian couples. Both couples were middle age or upper middle age. They had adopted young kids from the foster system.

They started attending their church, even though that they knew that the church was, for lack of a better phrase, compassionately non-affirming. And about nine months or so after they were attending, they talked of a better phrase, compassionately non-affirming. And about nine months or so after they were attending, they talked to a staff member and they said, we're married and we love each other, but we now believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. What should we do? You know, and even though some people might automatically think they know the answer in their head, it's not simple because you're dealing with people's emotions. I tell about a time, another time when kind of similar thing happened, except it was one couple, younger, middle-aged couple.

And, you know, they asked the same question, but if they got divorced, one of them would lose her health insurance and she had schizophrenia. What do you do in these situations? And I think these situations are fantastic opportunities for the church to come and walk miles next to people. and walk miles next to people. And for the church to be that community that can enter with that person or those individuals in the midst of that obstacle. And we can show them that,

hey, we've all been somewhere before and we're here with you right now. So you're not going to give an answer of what you said? Or that's besides the point. It's here's an opportunity to... Got to go buy the book, man. Go buy the book.

I mean I read that section. I'm now blanking on what you actually did say. So I got to go back and check it out. I don't get until the end of the last chapter. I kind of resolve it. Yeah. Well, Caleb, the end of the last chapter. I kind of resolve it. Yeah. Well, Caleb, the book is Messy Truth. If you have not yet read Messy Grace,

I would recommend reading Messy Grace first and then Messy Truth, although it is a standalone book. I mean, when I was reading Messy Truth, you're obviously referring back to your book, but people could just read Messy Truth and get a lot out of it. I'd recommend reading both. We actually wrote our books the same year, People to be Loved and Messy Grace.

And I remember I read yours, you read mine. We're like, why don't we just write it together? I know. And we wrote it. I think yours came out like two months before mine, which means we were basically turning in the manuscript around the same time and we didn't consult each other,

but there were phrases in our books that were almost identical, which we, it was impossible for us to plagiarize one or the other. I mean, you would almost think it was the Holy spirit, right? Something like that. We've been there,

but, um, no, people, uh, if people want to find the book, uh, they can go to my website, Kayla, Colton, block. no, people, uh, if people want to find the book, uh, they can go to my website,

Kayla Colton, block.com. Um, and you can look for messy truth under resources. Click on that. It's also on Amazon target life way. Okay. Just Mardell's just all the usual suspects. Um, audio book, audible ebook, paperback, all that kind of stuff. And you do church consulting,

right? I mean, if, if, if somebody, a pastor is listening and they want you to come out and help them work through a, maybe a specific question or issue,

even, even you've done stuff that like legal stuff, right? Not as a lawyer, but like giving advice on how to navigate nonprofit with legal stuff or. Yeah. With, uh, someian colleges and seminaries um and then also i met with some denominational boards and um then with a lot of churches and

then even with churches like it can be any health resolution over these matters to family parents marriage all that kind of stuff. There's one church I was working with where their local city council passed some laws that went into effect in the city that were very similar to the Equality Act. Oh, wow. And this is a multi-site campus. So we had to think through, OK, what does it look like for there to be continuity with campuses? What can we do? What can we not? Sometimes it helps to have an outside perspective.

Yeah. But you've done, you've done similar things as well. Well, thanks so much for being on Theology and Raw, Caleb. Hope your book does well.