Theology in the Raw - S8 Ep897: Netflix’s “Pray Away” and the Ex-Gay Movement: Tony Scarcello

Episode Date: August 30, 2021

Netflix recently released a documentary on the so-called “Ex-Gay” movement, highlighting its lies and all the damage it’s done to gay Christians. What are the pros of the movie? And what are the cons? My good friend Tony Scarcello and I evaluate this provocative documentary.  Tony Scarcello is a pastor, speaker, and writer located in Springfield, Oregon. He regularly speaks at churches, camps, retreats, and conferences. Tony is also the host of the Regenerate Podcast and the author of the book Regenerate: Finding Jesus After Deconstruction. When he isn’t doing those things you can find him analyzing movies, reading theology, or spending time with his wife Kelsey, friends, and family. Faith, Sexuality, and Gender Conference - Live in Boise or Stream Online In the all-day conference, Dr. Preston Sprinkle dives deep into the theological, relational, and ministry-related questions that come up in the LGBTQ conversation. Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.comVenmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkleInstagram | @preston.sprinkleYoutube | Preston Sprinkle Twitter | @RawTheologyInstagram | @TheologyintheRaw Check out Dr. Sprinkle’s website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I have on the show today one of the most delightful human beings that I know, Tony Scarcello. He's a pastor, he's a speaker, he's a writer. He just published his first book called Regenerate, Following Jesus After Deconstruction that I highly recommend. He was on the podcast about a year ago talking about the book. And it's just, it's one of those books that's really hard to put down if you or anybody you know is wrestling with some kind of deconstruction in their faith journey. I highly recommend this book. In this episode, we do talk about the book a little bit at the beginning, but we mainly focus on the new Netflix documentary, Pray Away. We look at the pros and the cons of this documentary and discuss all things related to reparative or conversion or ex-gay therapy.

And I think you'll enjoy this conversation. Speaking of sexuality, faith, and gender, we are going to have a faith, sexuality, and gender conference here in Boise October 20th to the 21st. Encourage you, if you can, grab a plane flight and get out here to Boise. It's an amazing town. You only have to spend one night. We'll get you out of here before four o'clock. You can jump on the next plane flight home. Or we are live streaming the event as well. So if you can't come out here or you don't want to sit in the audience, um, uh, consider live streaming it with you just, I mean, just as an individual or with a, a team of leaders or a discipleship group or a Bible study you're involved in, um, would encourage you to check that out. You can go to centerforfaith.com

forward slash events to get all the info on that event. Um, also if you want to support the show, you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology in a raw support the show for as little as five bucks a month to get access to premium content once a month, uh, patron only blogs and podcasts and interactions throughout the week. Uh, so again, all the information is in the show notes. All right. Without further ado, let's dive into Netflix's pray away with the one and only Tony Scarcello. Hi, friends.

Welcome back to another episode of Theology in Raw. I'm here with my good friend, Tony Scarcello. Tony, how are you doing on this early morning? It's been freaking sprinkle. Only you can get me up at 5.30 in the morning on a Thursday or on a... What day is today? See, that's how we're... Tuesday. Tuesday. Yeah, it feels like Monday night, right? Tuesday morning, early morning. Well, I had a busy day podcasting scheduled, but you reached out and said, hey, we should talk about this Netflix film, Parade Away. And I was like, dude, we totally need to talk about it. Can we do it early on Tuesday morning?

Because we need to do this soon because I think a lot of people are talking about it. Yeah, it's real now. First of all, before we jump in, it's been about a year now since you came out with your book. Do you want to tell us how that is doing and how the It's been about a year now since you came out with your book. Do you want to tell us how that is doing and how the reception's been? Because I endorsed the book and it's an incredible book. And I've said that offline, so you know I'm not just saying it because you're here in front of me. It is such a great book on deconstruction, reconstruction, something I know a lot of people are going through. So yeah, what's the snapshot blurb about the book and how's it been going?

Yeah, thank you. It's good. One thing I didn't anticipate with it, and I guess I should have, is... Oh, real quick, real quick, the name. It's Regenerate? Generate Following Jesus After Deconstruction. And people don't know, we recorded an episode on it a while ago, but like, it's essentially my journey of growing up in a faith, losing a faith, coming back to the

faith. What I wasn't anticipating when the book came out was how many, how frequently I was going to be the first time I would hear about people's own stories with their struggles with their sexuality. So I that that I mean, that's a major part of my book is my story with my sexual orientation and coming to grips with my sexual identity. But I mean, I wanted the not even I wanted, but at the time I thought the focus was like going to be just navigating this crisis of faith and coming back to the faith. But what people really seem to cling to was the first half of the book, which is just me realizing when I first discovered this about myself and the kind of turmoil I went through and growing up in a church landscape that didn't know how to help people with this very well. And so, yeah, I've gotten to be on probably 30 or 40 Skype calls or Zoom calls of people just like, hey, like husband and wife sitting in front of me, like we're the only ones who know.

And or you're the first person I'm telling this or I've been. Yeah. And most of the time, like I I kind of because I'm a pastor and I have I have my own people that I need to kind of care for and exert my energy to, and I am not like a super high energy, don't have a whole lot of emotional margin anyway. So usually it tends to be a one and done kind of conversation. I'll meet with them. I'll probably send them everything you've ever written and ever released and send them – lead them toennett and then just kind of go on my way um okay but every once in a while there's i just i do feel a tug where they're right now there's a young man that i've been talking with who who nobody knows except for one of his really close friends and he lives across the country and um and you just feel like oh gosh like if if he doesn't have anybody

who knows the story like that's some scary territory. So, yeah, it's been a privilege. Like it's a privileged position to – because I remember the first time I ever said that. It was the most terrifying moment of my life. Like I am not straight. And I haven't been since I was 11 years old. So, yeah. That's awesome.

I mean that's crazy awesome. Wow. Yeah. That's awesome. I mean, that's crazy awesome. Wow. So I would say, yeah, your sexual orientation and your journey is a major thread in the book. But also, even if you just are going through some kind of deconstruction, whatever it is, or just, yeah, hitting your head up against your own faith, you know, on whatever level. I feel like you navigated those waters well in that you 100% understand where people are coming from. But I think you help them reconstruct in a really healthy way. Because that's the biggest question I often get is, you know, I get the deconstruction

journey, you know, how do we reconstruct in a healthy way where we don't just get off the rails, you know, and just live with inability to forgive and bitterness and trauma and hurt and all this stuff? Because that's not healthy either, you know? How do we become enchanted with Scripture and Jesus again? Like, that's a big deal. And I'm a Pentecostal, so like, Like that's a deal. And I'm a Pentecostal. So like an enchanted worldview kind of comes with the territory. And so I yeah. And and I know like the thing that my book is like. It is at this point, like it's a drop in the sea of a bunch of books that have been released about deconstruction and reconstruction. So it makes sense that like that would be the piece for most people. Our mutual friend, AJ Swoboda, he released a book on the same subject shortly after I released mine.

And I almost stopped writing mine when I found out he was writing this. But he said this to me, and I see the value in it now. My story is the main piece of it. It's not my ability necessarily to think through this, but to just spot God's redemptive perspective on my journey. And, um, so yeah, it's been such an honor. And the publishers reached out to me if I wanted to write a second book, they said that they're, they're down to publish it. And so we'll see what happens. I don't know. Awesome. Awesome. Um, I know Brian's on,

I think is working on something too. too. I think along the same lines. I don't know if I should say that publicly. Sorry, Brian, if that's not public. It's already released for pre-order and stuff. Oh, it is? Okay. Yeah. All right.

Well, let's jump into the Netflix documentary. I'll just jump in, summarize just the gist of it in case people don't know even what it is. So Netflix, well, you should probably fill in some gaps here because you know more about the details than I do. But yeah, long story short, Netflix released a documentary called Pray Away. It addresses, and I would say exposes, the dangers and harm that's been done through so-called ex-gay reparative therapy or conversion therapy practices, mainly through Exodus International, which began, I believe, back in the late 70s and closed its doors in 2013. And several people in the documentary were high ups in the movement. I think one of the founders who started it, but then later went back to – what language were you using?

I don't like the gay lifestyle. He was saying ex-ex-gay. Ex-ex-gay. Okay, yeah. So he ended up embracing his sexual orientation. And several people, there were gay. Okay. Yeah. So he ended up, yeah. Um, embracing his sexual orientation, um, uh, and several people that there were high ups there, which was that, that was fascinating, you know, hearing their story and them talking through how they used to believe. And even there's lots of footage of them giving talks and all this stuff. And then them reflecting on that. And you could tell they're like, yeah, I don't believe any of this anymore. And yeah, so it's fast. And then, yeah, so that's the gist of the documentary. What are some more just kind of nuts and bolts aspects of the documentary that need to be filled in? Yeah, it kind of traces the story of what the movie is projecting as kind of like a leader in the new ex-gay movement.

So a guy named, I think his name is Jeffrey. So he's kind of like, his story kind of runs parallel with the story of the founder of the Exit International. Well, the founder, oh, did I lose you? Just a tiny glitch. The founder and then – yeah. Yeah, so it kind of traces that guy. I think important to note is the guy who's kind of like spearheading this movie is a guy named Ryan Murphy. And if you've seen shows like Glee or American Horror Story or – I mean throw a rock and you're going to hit something that this guy's produced.

He's probably the most powerful, influential gay man in Hollywood. Wow. So when I heard this movie was coming out, I had my dukes up because he's not – his stuff is kind of trash. If you like Glee or American Horror Story, I'm sorry to crap on stuff that you like, but it's usually really just trashy, un-nuanced, kind of gross stuff. And so I was expecting this to just be like – well, the Gospel Coalition wrote an article saying this is a very anti-Christian movie.

And so I was honestly caught off guard because I didn't get that from it really at all. Like that it was an anti-Christian movie. Like, um, I think that, and part of the reason I wanted to reach out to you, I think that it points out problems that a lot of people in the church would agree are problems. I think the solutions it offers is where you and I would disagree with where the movie goes, but the problems it points out, I think most of us can be like yeah that's we agree that was not good that was actually bad so right right yeah yeah um i'm curious tony i in did you go through any kind of ex-gay kind of therapy like like did this unearth some of your own experiences or oh dude yeah yeah. So we didn't frame it that way when it was happening. But when I kind of shared my story at the church that I was working at at the time, and I got let go, they had me see a counselor. And the hope was that after seeing this counselor for a year, I would be reinstated to a leadership position. or I would be reinstated to a leadership position. And it was before the documentary that I realized what was going on. There was like a form of reparative therapy. But we would like try and trace back family traumas, try and trace back like any parent issues.

And, oh, well, you had a mom who was a drug addict. So maybe that means you just felt safer with men and um and then go through like prayers and practices to kind of reconfigure my heart and mind to not be attracted to the same sex anymore um and this actually is maybe a little bit where i take umbrage with the movie is that it doesn't do a whole lot to tell you exactly why reparative therapy can be damaging it just assumes that we already know like it's in the kind of assumes we're all on the same page this is bad i have a lot of people in my life who are not on that page like who see like a use for it and and would advocate for it and so as i was watching it was like yeah but they're not really doing a lot

to talk about how like after every session like you walk away and like I would go throw up in the bathroom stall because like the thoughts that would be running through my mind is like they're trying to like rip something out of me that's never going to come out as much as I want. And and the visceral like implied message there is that like God made you wrong, so he needs to fix you. implied message there is that like, God made you wrong, so he needs to fix you. And if he doesn't fix you, then it might be a judgment on you, or you're doing something wrong on your part. When really that's, I mean, as Jackie Hill Perry, she says, all the sexuality is holiness. And so you're trying to like make the solution, everybody needs to be hetero. And maybe that's, if that's not God's ideal for that person or their dream for that person, then you're going to keep hurting them. I don't know if that's not God's ideal for that person or their dream for that person, then you're just going to keep hurting them. I don't know if that makes sense.

Yeah. Would you say that that would be one of the main damaging pieces is that until you cultivate heterosexual attractions, there's still something very much off in you as a person. And you can't live out a faithful life towards Jesus fully until that's repaired. Is that... Yeah. And it lacks a biblical anthropology of people and a biblical ecclesiology. At one point, John Paul, he says in the movie, the entire Christian... He literally says the entire Christian church is based on being married and having a family. Right, I remember that. That right there, that's like, I thought it was based on Jesus and his resurrection and like apprenticing under his way and living it out here on earth. Right. But no, because that's the not even implicit message. It's oftentimes the explicit message that unless you have kids and get married, like you aren't really walking with Jesus. There's

something wrong with you. Nevermind that Jesus never got married and Paul and get married. Like you aren't really walking with Jesus. There's something wrong with you. Nevermind that Jesus never got married and Paul wasn't married. Right, right, right. You know what's interesting with that? Because when he said that, I was like 100% and I've said this many, many times on the podcast and my writing and stuff, just this idolatry of marriage that exists in the church.

What's fascinating is that the climactic moment in the film itself was a marriage. Like the whole underlying journey was a same-sex marriage, but I don't think that's quite the exact same thing, but it is interesting that finding love, living out your true sexuality that's culminating in marriage still ended up being there, you know? So I don't know if the film, while disparaging that kind of idolatry of marriage,

I don't know. I think they almost in a roundabout way repeated that. And this is something that I've said in response to some of the arguments against the traditional sexual ethic is that, you know, when people say, well, wait a minute, if somebody doesn't marry some, can't marry somebody that they desire to, that they have sexual attractions towards, then they can't function. They're going to be suicidal. They're not going to be able to live out their full humanity. And it's almost like it's the same rhetoric that they're almost borrowing from the idolatry of marriage that is widespread in the conservative church. They wouldn't call it that. They don't see it that way. But it it's like well i it sounds very similar like you can't be fully complete

until you marry the person you desire like how that it just seems like you're borrowing the same categories from traditional evangelicalism have you thought did you catch that at all or do you have any thoughts on that or um a hundred percent i well i didn't catch that, the irony of the film ending in a marriage, but I think, I don't think the movie is at all interested in the genuine mission and purpose of the church. Yeah, I know. that john's like comment about that made it into the movie okay because it is sort of a detractor from what xx gay people are now pushing towards anyways right john's john's the jack black looking guy right yeah yeah he did look like you said that earlier i thought it was jack black for a while i'm like wow i didn't know he yeah yeah. Yeah, he looked awesome. He looked really cool in his later years. Yeah, yeah.

He aged better. I thought he was going to bust out School of Rock, right? Okay, so why don't you – so maybe sum up what you see as some positive things with the film, and then we'll get to maybe some critiques. And yeah, I just want to repeat what you said like and this is it's not of course it's not a christian film um of course it's not gonna like the fact that i didn't read the gospel coalition critique but you know this attack christianity i'm like it's it's a film produced by babylon that exiled us yeah i don't know like i

know that kind of fate, that, that church and culture kind of framework. I'm like, I'm yawning and like, well, what do you, it's Netflix.

Like, what would you expect? And like you said, I was surprised at how many opportunities it could have taken to actually attack the church. And it didn't feel that explicit. I mean, anyway,

yeah, it's not a Christian film. So yeah. What are some positive, maybe sum up? Cause you've already kind of hit on some of them yeah yeah well there's two that come to mind instantly um i know that uh the the gentleman i almost said the character this is a documentary the gentleman jeffrey um that kind of anti-trans person that the movie bookends itself with. Right. He seemed to have a really genuine, kind, and tender heart towards people. And, like, I mean, my wife and I were watching it, and she was just like, oh, I love him.

I want to be his friend. And I'm like, and they could have picked a crazy person, because they're out there. And they could have picked, like, a crazy, mean-spirited, like, person. And they could have picked like a crazy mean spirited like person and he he just was really he's not who I would have picked to represent my worldview and I don't think he does in a lot of ways represent my worldview but he was a really humanized gentle compassionate person that I appreciate that because it would have been opportunity to turn this into propaganda if um but the other thing is that at the end there's they kind of follow this this lady named julie who's the person who gets married at the end of the movie and she has this line where she says like my my core task in my life has been to separate jesus from the people that hurt me yeah and that i almost like started tearing up in that moment because totally unexpected for a netflix movie, made by the guy who I said was making this movie. And it really moved me because I do feel like for people with stories similar to mine and hers, that does feel like the core task is how do I faithfully follow Jesus without projecting onto him all of this crap that other people have spewed onto me in his name. And so I thought those two things were really powerful. They could have, I don't think there was a single person on there who said, I'm done

with God. I hate church. I'm never going back. Like even if they were there, they didn't include that in the documentary. And so to me, even though it's certainly a more progressive Christianity that I'm comfortable with, and you can have the whole argument of that, is that better than not going to church? That's a whole other argument. But to me, the fact that they were like, maybe there is something here worth salvaging and contending for in spite of all the pain and trauma,

that's deep in my heart that, that I resonate with. That is because they, they, but that one line from Julie separates Jesus from aberrations within Christianity. Like that's, that's, yeah, we, but that I would echo that same line over and over again, that church hurt, misguided Christian attempts at whatever, that church hurt, misguided Christian attempts at whatever, that's not Jesus. That's followers of Jesus not following Jesus the way they should. Do you think they represented the ex-gay movement well, from what you know about it? I don't know enough. I mean, I got into this conversation literally the year Exodus closed down. I had heard about Exodus before, but I did not live through it all. And because my ministry has been separated from that friends that they tell me, you know, which are, some are, some are better than others. Uh, most of them are pretty eerie. Yeah. Some are downright bizarre and disturbing. Um, yeah. About what they went through in ex-k therapy. Yeah. I think they, honestly, Preston, I think they were more charitable than they needed to be. Wow. They, they really were. Um, I think all of them at the end of the movie said these people think they're helping people.

They think they're doing the right thing. And yeah, they were a single one of them, a villain. Like they could have taken shots at John Polk's ex-wife, like she she hasn't always had the most helpful perspective on this stuff either. And so like but they didn't like they they really just. So I feel like if I were making this movie, I probably would have been more critical. And, you know, like. I don't know if you notice this in the movie, but I definitely noticed this with people who I had met who claimed to be like ex-gay and fixed and um there's almost like this like dead eyes like just this lifeless expression behind their face that just isn't full of life like something in them is is dead that maybe shouldn't be dead and um and i every person like that especially john polk and i think the guy's name was randy who was running it near the end. When you see them get up there and speak, like they just look lifeless. And the one guy who didn't look lifeless ended up being the guy who once he heard people's stories was like, yeah, we got to shut this thing down.

So to me, like that speaks to something of, again, like a bad biblical anthropology that like this, maybe it wasn't God's design that everybody functioned in this way. Sorry, dude, one second. Our garbage, can you hear the garbage truck? Oh, it's fine. Keep going. Yeah. I can barely hear it. Okay. Yeah. Like it seems biblical and rational to me to believe that like there can be such a thing as mixed orientation marriages or like shocker shocker, like maybe the Lord really just does want some people to be single and that's okay. And that's a blessing in and of itself with its own set of challenges. But like, why do you think Paul contends against marriage? First Corinthians seven, please don't get married. I'd rather you didn't.

Like we just don't have an idea for that in the American church. yeah yeah no i i from my more limited knowledge i i think they could have taken more pot shots and especially at the end when they did i think it was julie um who said like the motivation like she was she was saying they're they're well intending like these are not monsters these are not like they truly believe they're doing something good you know um i thought that was more than they had to say you know like i thought that was really good and i so i um i should i should say on the air like i've i've known julie in the past i've spoken with her on stage. We, we spoke in, um, I think Portland or Oregon together after she had changed her view. Um, so I've known her before and after I haven't kept up with her.

I mean, we, I don't claim to be like friends with her as if we, we keep up, but have talked with her on several occasions and she's just, she's a delightful, delightful person, um,

both before and after her shift in view um and yeah i i thought she everything in the because the film you know i'm sure you know you as you know you know what came out on the documentary is probably five percent of the footage they had so they're hand-picking things and we'll get to this in a second that ends up building a story in a narrative that's just what film does it's not a completely neutral journalistic just survey of you know they are there is a narrative focus and intention there that i don't fault but it's it's i think it's important to recognize if i made a documentary which i've done documentaries dear Dear Church, I'm Gay. We did a short documentary, and I got critiqued for the same thing.

How come you have all these, everybody there is like side B or believes in a traditional ethic, which isn't true. We did have one of the five was not a Christian. But, oh, there's no affirming Christians. I'm like, yeah, I'm building a narrative too. I'm telling stories that I think the church needs to hear and you don't hear enough in the world. So that's, yeah, there's an underlying narrative there. So again, I don't fault them for that, but I do want people to recognize that there is a narrative being built here. All that to say, I thought

from what I have known about Julie and how the film portrayed her, I thought that was really good. Like I think she's just, she's, she's awesome. She's great. Obviously we disagree on a serious issue, but I think she's yeah.

I'm glad they, I'm glad they picked her and maybe not somebody else that would have been maybe way more yeah um, uh, yeah. Attacking of the church, um, or even the people in X game industries. What was there other things that you like specifically liked about the movie that you were really glad they highlighted on or that maybe you didn't know before you watched it? Yeah. Um, let me, oh man, there was, I didn't have a lot of, um, Yeah. Let me, oh man, there was, I didn't have a lot of, a lot going in expectations. So yeah, I thought it seemed to accurately portray what many of my friends have told me about some of

these ministries. And again, I felt like it was more mild than some of the things I heard. I mean, I've heard some downright disturbing things that have gone on. I can't repeat them because I think the people that told me were under oath not to repeat what goes on, which tells you that that's like, wow, why? So the stuff that... Even when they showed like Joseph Nicolosi in counseling sessions and stuff, Even that, I'm like, and there were some extended kind of like recordings of counseling sessions. And I was like, that doesn't seem that bad. That was my thought too.

Really? Okay. I'm hesitating how I say it because I'm like people, I don't want to open a wound to somebody who's gone through those sessions and say, no, it's actually horrible. You have no clue. So I'm not, I don don't want to diminish people but based on what they were saying i i didn't yeah it didn't seem like i was sad that one that one seemed like i just cry and cry and feel so broken and i think he

was saying like how does it feel to be broke how does it feel to be broken in front of me? But even like they even kept the part where he's like, it was his real positive affirmation of, or maybe a positive affirmation of his humanity. I don't see you that way. How does it feel that I still love you, even though you feel broken or something like that? I'm like, that could be a lot worse.

I don't know if I'd take that exact approach. Everybody should have one of those moments. What's that? Everybody should have one of those moments, gay or not. Right. Having somebody – I agree. It felt like – I mean, maybe this is maybe more of like an issue with the filmmaking, but it felt like, guys, conversion therapy is bad

and restored hope still exists. So let's make a movie about it. Like, without really going into a whole lot of like, yeah, I mean, I can say some stuff that we did in conversion therapy that that was like, well, I mean, yeah, whatever you want to share, dude. I mean, I don't know. you want to share dude i mean i don't know at this point whatever like i've shared a lot um i uh i had the the one of my counselors i had a couple and one of them um would have me like every time i try every time i started having a like lustful or sexual thought towards someone of the same sex they wanted me to try and imagine that every time I engage one of those thoughts, I'm doing another whip on Christ's body.

Like, and then imagine that I have a whip in my hand and that I'm lashing his body up. And, like, stuff like that. So, like, that's, and to me, I think, like you, I've heard much worse stories than that. And, like, that's pretty tame, pretty tame but like that really messes with you like and you start to get a complex about like how is it even possible like if if my imagination of christ is of me torturing him how's it even possible to me have an imagination that he would love me and accept me and want me and so like stuff like that that the movie seems to kind of gloss over that I almost wish they – or at the end of the movie, they give that like kids who go through conversion therapy are two times as likely to attempt suicide. And that feels like an awfully weird footnote to put at the end of your movie.

It feels like you should explore that a little more. Right. Yeah. I thought that that percentage would have been higher. That's almost like – they probably could have found – because you because you know stats are there's always a study that somewhere so i i i thought they would have said like 10 times higher or something but that's um yeah i haven't done i don't know the exact numbers on that but i i also thought um oh oh for me to your point i that part towards the end when julie was you know she's in

the middle of writing a book and she was reading to her her her i think they were already married at that time her wife um reading about her past when she was self-harming like burning red hot quarters into her flesh yeah because she was so angry at how sinful she was for simply experiencing same-sex attraction that this was not going away and as she said and i know this from julie she was a good good kid happy uh did not get in trouble like she was a good good christian teen which in this day and age is like, you can find thousands, millions of billions of teenagers. If you added up the kind of sin quota, they would be far beyond where Julia, you know, so that then to hear her describe how much she hated her physical body and was burning quarters into it as sort of this

self-atoning affliction because her SSA was not going away. That, I don't know anybody, even if there's people that are pro-reparative therapy or maybe the kind of neo-versions of it today, I'm sure there's some listening. And listening and like hopefully and you probably hate most of this podcast but hopefully though there are some scenes like that where you can i don't know anybody that can listen to that and not be moved you know in a healthy way like wow that that's whatever's causing somebody to do that that's not good dude that part was was emotional for me the moment i mean because i did i mean self-harm and all that stuff was a big part of my story as well and i didn't even think about it until she said like two things she said looking back at old journals i was always asking god to forgive me and change me and she had this line of, Oh, repenting of my flesh is she would say in

her journals. And then she said, yeah, I was a really good kid in high school. And like, I just immediately went back to, I was like, I was a good kid in middle school and had a couple freshmen, sophomore years. I was a rough kid, but then junior, senior year. And then after that, I was like the golden boy in my youth group and an intern at my church and a youth pastor at 19 and like like there's no reason for that kid to hate himself and think that he's like deplorable in the eyes of christ in the world unless you're being taught that like unless you're being told that that's that's what you need to to think of yourself we don't they didn't talk about this in the movie, but we don't really like get honest about temptations in church. Like I think – I just sort of assume most people are tempted by things that they would never want anyone to know they're tempted by.

But I wonder if that's where like the Catholics get it right with the practice of confession. right with the practice of confession. Like, I think I had that thought all the time growing up, like, if I could just talk to somebody who wasn't allowed to, like, tell other people and wasn't allowed to, like, follow up with me about it, but like, could just speak the forgiveness of Christ over me, like, that would have been life changing as a kid. And yeah, and I just, and you hear John, his story was tragic to me of him saying, happened to lie that he wasn't even tempted by sexuality. Like that he said, if I were to say, like, because he said, I was happy. I was married.

I had kids. But if I told him I was tempted by this, I would have lost everything. And it's like, maybe if he's allowed to say he was tempted by it, he wouldn't have lost everything. Like he maybe wouldn't have gone to that nightclub. say he was tempted by it he wouldn't have lost everything like he maybe he wouldn't have gone to that that nightclub and do you think that's where some of the strictness and lies of and i'll just say some or many branches of the xk narrative that he went through you know where do you think that has caused some of these people to just kind of totally jump ship and and leave their families

and go go back to living out their orientation? Because if you're not even allowed to say, no, I still wrestle with this. Absolutely. Every day I have to bring it to the cross. And sometimes I mess up and I need the church to come around me and help me. The fact that you don't have that kind of outlet, I just envision this pressure cooker that's going to blow at some point. have you have that kind of outlet i just i just envision this pressure cooker that's kind of blow at some point yeah oh yeah i mean how can it not and then you add to the fact that this guy's job is to propagate that narrative so that's different than just the dude who's attending church with his wife and wondering why getting married didn't make him straight like this is

this guy is he is the spokesperson for the movement. So I – yeah, and the fact that he and the founder, Michael Bussey, like are both like actively gay in relationships or marriages, not involved with church, like says a lot about how we know how to handle people's temptations. So they're no longer Christians, right? Both those guys? That's the impression that I got. Even that's with the film. They could have really taken a shot at the church by making that more front and center. That this is what Christianity

does. And now they're free and happy that they left religion. But they didn't... It seems like they had that opportunity and didn't take it. Again, they didn't bring in seems like they had that opportunity and didn't take it. Again, they didn't bring in kind of their faith journey through it all. I have a question. This is kind of a bridge question between the pros and the cons, so we can kind of start thinking about the cons. When it comes to reparative therapy, and this is something – and I hate our culture that you're not even allowed to kind of talk out loud

or ask questions for fear of this kind of self-censoring. Somebody might not like what you're implying or whatever. But here's my... And basically, I can care less about all that. Are some aspects of what goes on in so-called reparative therapy helpful. Here's my question. I think loads of people, gay, straight, bi, asexual, whatever, could use a good dose of dealing with stuff in the past that hasn't been dealt with, examining areas of trauma that's been calloused over, especially, I mean, 20% to 30% of females have been sexually abused. A large percentage have not dealt with that in a healthy way.

I think 10% to 20% of males have been sexually abused. Why are teen anxiety rates, depression rates, suicide rates off the chart? Like, my question is, I know, reparative therapy gets kind of critiqued of, oh, unearthing all this, something in the past, you know. And I get that. I disagree with the motivation that if you're same-sex attracted, it must be linked to something in the past. But my question is, could be, or could there not be? And let me reframe that. I'm not saying that that's ever the sole cause, but I agree with the American Psychological Association that sexual orientation is a complex blend of nature and nurture. It's hard to unravel that. There's probably always some biological propensity that maybe has been nurtured by some environmental thing, and it's impossible to sort all that out.

And that's something that virtually everybody agrees on today, complex blend of both. It just seems like whatever your story, it can be good to heal from past trauma or different parent parental relationships or whatever maybe you did have a domineering dad and then or domineering mom and absent like i just don't want to throw the entire baby out with the bath water because oh but that's what reparative therapy people do you know you know i'm asking and and what are your thoughts on that? And how do we go about that without repeating the past of wrongheaded ex-gay stuff? Well, I think the redemptive be a fool to say that, like, maybe I wouldn't be a fool to say this, but like, I, it doesn't seem like that much of a stretch for me to be like, well, yeah, my mom was a drug addict from the time I was

12 until I was 20 when she died of an overdose. So like maybe, and then I, I had a couple, one girlfriend who was, needed help, like literally needed like psychological help, like in all that. And then we were together for three years. And so like, it doesn't seem like that much of a stretch to be like, there's not the most positive feminine voices in Tony's life. And my dad is insanely tender and nurturing and like real man's man, like construction worker my whole life but like kisses and hugs and i love yous all the time and so he was always the safest place in the world for me so like i could see somebody spinning and i've heard it people spinning my story to say well

that's why you feel that way tony and um and my point is like i don't really care about why because it doesn't change the fact that it is what it is. And like to insist that somebody has to or even can on their own will just remove this or that it is God's will for that to be taken away for sure. I'm not saying that like God can't or doesn't even occasionally. I don't think I've ever heard a story where I wasn't suspicious. Like, like he can, and he can do whatever he wants. He's a free God. But I, I just, yeah, that's where I'm like, I think that every I think everybody should do therapy. I think everybody should figure out the thing beneath the thing and why they do what they do um but i don't therapy with the intent of fixing a specific issue yeah regardless of the issue like does therapy can't have a preferred outcome or else it won't work that's it that's exactly what i was

that's as i was even thinking formulating my question it's it's it's the difference is it's it's healing from all this past stuff which which might be legitimate, so that you're no longer attracted to the same sex. And if that outcome isn't achieved, then you haven't truly healed. And that's basically the underlying problem. Okay. Yeah, that's helpful. All right. Let's transition to some cons. Do you have, do you have any problems or pushbacks or yeah. The center's article about be wearing fault, beware of false dichotomies. That, that was the whole reason I reached out and was like, let's talk about this. Because if they had interviewed Jackie Hill Perry or David Bennett or you and presented advocates of side B LGBTQ Christians, to me it would have been a documentary worth really wrestling with, really looking to dive deep into what are the options for queer Christians. into what are the options for queer christians um this really just wanted you and like and this might be why they don't they don't dive into the theology of christian sexuality once like they don't like like again the only non-affirming gay christians in the movie wouldn't call

themselves gay they would be ex-gay they were ex-trans um so to me like that that was like a big weak point i was just like this this is just propagating a narrative that that to makes people like me and a lot of friends of mine who are occupying non-affirming church spaces and committed to orthodoxy like it makes me feel more at risk because it's setting up the story of like you're either ex-gay, which I have plenty of that in my world of people who believe tension in their sexual orientation who don't buy that narrative. And the less those stories are told, the less like – the more that it's erased because erasure is a big term in like queer – what's the term? Activism is don't erase people. But they're committing a really vicious form of erasure there by saying these are the only two outcomes that are available to you. And that's kind of what – honestly, like I wonder what a Julie or any of those people would have – what their lives would have looked like if they would have known that, hey, actually, what if like God didn't make you wrong?

And like what if like God's ideal isn't for you to be heterosexual? What if there's this other option where you get to love and trust and follow Jesus in a totally different and more intimate way than other people? If sexuality is the most vulnerable, intimate piece of ourselves, and that's the most difficult piece to surrender over to Jesus. Like what is the level of intimacy and familiarity with God that we have when we actually are able to do that? Wow. That's a great word right there. Yeah. Yeah. So beware of false dichotomy. So like the two options presented was the ex-gay narrative or the fully affirming kind of secular

sexual ethic you know there was no room for a a more nuanced christian sexual ethic and that's this is where it comes down to like filmography and and what kind of narrative you know because like they could say, well, that's not what we were trying to, we weren't trying to capture. That wasn't our intention. We were just trying to capture this, this, whatever. I would still say the, whether it was intentional or not, the unhelpful byproduct of the narrative they built was the impression

that there is no other kind of so-called third option. I hate using third way because that's a whole different thing. That means something else for people that have ears to hear. But yeah, another option that is not ex-gay, but is also not that's maintaining an orthodox view of sexuality. um that's maintaining an orthodox view of of sexuality um so yeah with the i've got mixed thoughts on the positive case do you remember the guy's name the ex-trans guy jeffrey jeff okay i've got mixed thoughts about how they portrayed him i and we talked offline about this a little bit I keep kind of going back and forth because what was it a positive portrayal or was it a

negative portrayal on the one hand I did appreciate that they showed several scenes of him with his you know getting ready for the march with all his friends or whatever and like they they seemed happy and they and part of me was like yeah let them be them like maybe they didn't change whatever like they're super stoked on life like and and i now is i appreciated that it didn't seem like they that the film um bent their happiness in a negative direction most of the time. I feel like there was some times when music does a lot in movies and some of the, well, music and the placement of scenes is where I would maybe question whether they portrayed them accurately. And for those who have seen the film might be

able to reflect with me on this. When they were portraying the kind of ex-trans guy and all his ex-friends, ex-ex-gay friends, they did seem happy. But the music to me, if I remember, just seemed extra eerie. And those scenes were often or sometimes placed after. You heard from ex-gay people saying this was all a lie. It was a sham. I lied for 10 years. I lied for 20 years. I knew I was lying and now I don't have to lie anymore. And then they go to a bunch of ex-gay people and they're all happy. It's like, wait a a minute this former scene seemed to seem to say something that was like objective truth not just for me i was lying but it's a lie and then it's almost like you can read this other scene through the lens of oh they're just in the

middle of that lie that wasn't explicitly stated but i think it was at times strongly implied do you what do you have any thoughts on that hey that's what they wanted us to okay to feel i guess my my issue wasn't or um my compliment wasn't how they how they portrayed him it's just that they didn't pick a yeah a jerk that's more of what i was they could have gone for low-hanging fruit there. And it would have made their point even easier and less nuanced. But they – yeah. Because, again, we can go back to – and I keep name-dropping Jackie Hill Perry and David Bennett. But they can ask these really articulate queer non-affirming Christians to talk about their worldviews and why they they don't embrace a secular sexual ethic they ask the guy who's going to use terms like the schools want to get your

kids and they want to chop up your kids genitals and like so somebody who's not going to have the most nuanced articulated like the other thing is I want to say this um this ties in with Jeffrey is they they have scenes with like Julieie and michael bussey talking about how reparative therapy is like really big and large and good today um and like it's it's a huge thing that's how they kind of end the movie and you go to jeff for their example of this jeffries and he's got like 30 people like at his marches and it's like he's he's freaking out that his facebook post has 3 000 likes and what's going on so that that's my other question is is it that big i i and i i hear two different perspectives i haven't seen the data on it my thought was after exodus crumbled

you have a lot of these kind of organizations that are trying to carry the torch in a in a neo kind of xk way um i from my from what i hear they're really really small like i've heard like the restored hope meetings are like they're not this is not like what exodus used to be and all the other ones they're they're not large is is this a big deal in the church or is it not? I spend – this is probably true for you too. The majority of my time with pastors and ministry leaders. Like that's just the pool I swim in. Out of the dozens of them that I know on a deep level, I know one who is even remotely an advocate of conversion therapy. And,

and I use that an advocate as like, maybe they don't think it's what needs to happen for everybody, but they think it can be, it should be a viable option for people. And so like the rest of them wouldn't in a million years send someone to conversion therapy or, or attempt to do that for themselves. Like attempt to be the therapist in that situation.

So that's where I'm confused because I'm in a pretty conservative denomination. So if I'm not saying it at all, like I don't think it's that big of a boogeyman. I'm not – when it happens, it's tragic and bad. And the fact that it still happens is, I think, a problem. But that doesn't mean that it's still huge and vibrant and thriving, which is, I think, the exact terms that one of the interviewees said at the end is that it's a thriving movement still. What about... Okay, so... Yeah, and I would agree in my circles. I think people would push back on my perspective because I've created a ministry that is clearly

not that. And so I'm attracting people who would not naturally be into that. So it's a, what do sociologists call it? It's not a good sample bias. It's a biased sample that I'm going on. And so I get that. But even as I look outside of my more kind of circles, like to the SBC, even that, my friends who would not resonate with

several things with the center that we're doing, they wouldn't advocate for conversion therapy. They would, they may use some language that is misinterpreted in that direction, but they would not go that route. I don't think that the names I'm thinking of, I mean, the big names that everybody, you know, the Al Mollers and those people that they would, they would have very strong opinions about using the term gay. And even they may even be more like, no, like change would be good. But in terms of specific reparative therapy as a counseling, whatever, I don't think they would, I don't know, correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't, I don't think there'd be huge fans of that. I would say, though, I guess to push back on the point that I just made, I do know a lot of people who aren't ministry leaders who don't see the problem with conversion therapy. We've talked about this on a podcast before. Me sharing my story publicly has invited a fair amount of rejection. Well, why, why the heck would that invite rejection? I'm, I'm an Orthodox. I'm married to a woman. I'm committed to my wife. Unless what they were wanting and needing to hear was, no, this guy needs to say like that he's completely non-attracted to people of the same sex. And, um, and and so like so then even people who don't leave

like they they just don't get it they're like well you're married to kelsey and you love and i see you're like you i see that you love kelsey but like but you still consider yourself bi or same-sex attracted and that doesn't make any sense to me and i'm like and i and i would say like well you're still married to your wife you don't check out girls in the grocery store or even tempted to like at the gym or anything like that and well i'm heterosexual that's how god made me so like just like the whole imagination like for me is is anemic so until people are 100% totally fine with somebody like you or many others who still experience same-sex attraction but are following a traditional sexual ethic, until people are 100% fine with you being in the highest positions of leadership alongside any straight person who also deals with temptation, as long as there's still a hesitation there, that shows that there is a species of reparative therapy kind of lodged in their worldview. Even if they're not advocating for that kind of therapeutic sessions, they still have the essence of what's driving that in their worldview. Would that be accurate?

I would say 100%. Okay. I kind of add this real quick. it? I would say 100%. I kind of add this real quick. Conversion therapy is rooted in a subtle form of the prosperity gospel. It's rooted in this idea of a transactional God, where if I do this, God will honor, and he has to honor his end of the transaction. So this is whenever you hear somebody saying, I'm claiming it over my life, I claiming it i'm claiming it like they're letting you know that like they believe in a god who who's going to make transactions with you and um not as not a god who's sovereign and not even a god who's relational but like a god who is a store clerk that i gave my my prayers for this i'm giving up

sexuality you have to give me heterosexual do Do you think, because you were raised charismatic, you're in charismatic circles, is it, my impression is, especially in like Pentecostal circles, that this is still very huge. Again, maybe more on that kind of populist, popular level part of their worldview, that if you come to Jesus, you can't be gay anymore.

They may not have all the nuances of what that even means, but like a gay person getting saved is no longer being gay. Yeah. I mean, well, one of the biggest, most influential Pentecostal churches in America is Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry in Redding, California. They have a pretty big ex-gay ministry over there. That was my next question. Yeah. That was my next question is Bethel because I know they have, yeah. Yeah. And that was one of the resources that was utilized for me when I was, not to name names, like, and i will say while it is definitely conversion therapy that's not where i got the the whipping christ body every time you like a less well thought okay was from just for anybody because bethel's kind of cheap shots it's easy to take shots at

them but yeah um so yeah and is it the change movement that is that started with bethel and is that a form of prayer to therapy? Or is that kind of not, it's not therapy, right? It's just more of a movement or what's the? Yeah, I guess with them, it's a supernatural inworking of God changing your desires to where you are being changed from homosexuality to heterosexual. So it's not change. And this is another, this kind of leads into another question I have is just the language of change, transformation and my

interactions. And I hope, so those of you who are listening that are advocates of maybe change or Bethel or, um, or reparative therapy, it's the language of change and transformation that I think is unhelpful. Because people will ask me, well, Preston, don't you believe God can change people? And it's a loaded, it's a very loaded question. What am I supposed to say? No. But to reduce the complexity and tensions within this issue to don't you believe God can change people, I think misses so much. If people are going to use the language of change and transformation, which are biblical concepts and terms even, you need to be incredibly precise on what exactly you're talking about. Do I believe God can make a five-foot- six foot four? Yes, absolutely. Is that the

typical way in which God acts? Not really. Or even take, you know, a disability or something, you know, somebody that had his arm lost in an accident. Can God cause that arm to grow back? 100% without blinking an eye, I would say, yes, God has that ability. Is that the way God typically acts? In my anecdotal experience with one-armed people, no, it's not the typical way. So, I would map this conversation on that for whatever reason. This has not been the typical way in which God has responded in kindness to people who are attracted to the same sex. Most importantly, though, apart from even that, most importantly is I absolutely, fundamentally, theologically do not think that it is necessary for faithfulness. And to me, that's where the shame, the God hates me, the self-harm, isn't that where

it comes in? Is like, God is less pleased with me as long as I am still wrestling with this temptation. And that to me is really destructive when you either explicitly or implicitly give that impression that until you do not have this temptation anymore, something is still off in your spirituality. And God's still kind of like, well, I mean, I still love you, but you know, that kind of view of God, which is destructive. Well, and then you get to the point in the documentary where you're seeing Exodus International working at the Republican National Convention and them being elevated to places of significant influence and authority. And then you start seeing this trend that's really vibrant in the American church,

which is like if you go to a church and like, again, Pentecostals, like altar calls, like prayers, signs and wonders, like I am all for that. But there is a version of that that is exploiting people's desperations as a way of gaining your own influence and power and like you see exodus international clearly doing that and they're even saying that that's what we were doing because it was like a financially beneficial arrangement um and bringing joseph nicolosi in there and like all that kind of stuff they They were helping each other sell products, but like this isn't just a, if we think that because Exodus International is not around anymore, then the problem's fixed. Like I see people do this on

the pulpit all the time, like exploit what desperations that people have, and we will tell people that like, you know, Jesus has forgiven you. You just need the cross. But like it feels so often that like what we preach or what we talk about, how are we not supposed to walk away with the impression that my sin actually is bigger than the cross? Like my sin actually does trump Christ's work on the cross. If I feel like I can't go into the presence of God with boldness and confidence like Hebrews says, like if I feel like I can't do that, then I do have, and this isn't to heap shame on people, there is a belief somewhere in there lodged in my mind or in my soul that says, this is bigger than the cross. This is bigger than what Jesus can do for me. And anytime you exploit somebody's desperations for your own means of influence and power, like you're setting yourself

up for that, that destructive pattern. Wow. That's, I, I didn't think about that in that way, but that's, that's wow. That's pretty widespread. That, that, that, that spills over into a whole kind of powered conversation about leadership positions and just being in positions of power and how that intersects with the gospel and the Bible and stuff. Okay. So we, we acknowledged, well, so how widespread is it that the film made it out to be, this is like, it almost made it out to be, it's like growing even more, which it seems like as a kind of therapy if you go back to the exodus international heyday to now i just can't unless i mean show me a study or something i just it doesn't seem like it's as widespread and predominant as it was 15 years ago um but you're but the but the question mark i had that we both have is what about just as a piece of the popular mindset among a lot of

Christians? Oh, going back to Jeffrey, I keep forgetting his name, Jeffrey, the ex-trans guy. So here, and this deals with one of my biggest critiques is the opening line. I started watching the film. I'm like, I'm two seconds in and I have massive problems with how they're framing this. But what is common is the correlation between sexual orientation change efforts and gender identity change efforts. These are two very, very different things. And if anybody's interested, I'm doing a long blog series addressing the many differences between sexual orientation change efforts and so-called, I'll use that phrase, gender identity change efforts. And they have the two lines. They define sexual orientation and gender identity change, which their definition applies to sexual orientation change, not gender identity change. And then they say every major medical industry

has deemed this harmful or whatever. And again, that applies to sexual orientation change efforts, not so-called gender identity. What's gender identity change? Well, that's a massive conversation. I mean, you have the example they give is a biological male who used to identify as female, and then he came to the realization he's actually male. That's different than somebody actually being attracted to the same sex. Factually, ontologically, they are that. And trying to change them into something that they aren't. For good or for ill, whatever. But that's just categorically, that is different than so-called gender identity, you know, one person's gender identity change efforts is another person's

helping somebody to live in their body without having significant dysphoria over the biological sex that they factually are. Would be another, again, I'm not even saying I'm going to, I don't advise that kind of language for pastoral care, but I'm saying just conceptually, that kind of language for pastoral care. But I'm saying just conceptually, the LGB is very different than the T and gender dysphoria is very different than sexual orientation. So when people collapse those together, it's very unhelpful. So that's why I thought it was fascinating and almost unhelpful when they use a so-called ex-trans person as the kind of representative of somebody who's still in this ex so-called ex-gay movement um no he did he did bring in the fact that he's also was same-sex attracted i think he probably said homosexual or whatever but um

yeah anyway i didn't think that it's not surprising but i just think it's once again unhelpful to kind of collapse all these things together. But anyway, did you have any thoughts on that? I thought of you when I saw that. Oh, okay. I was like – and I agree. I mean, I agree with your assessment. But when I saw that, I was like, Preston's not going to like that.

They complain too. Yeah. Well, it's – Yeah, go ahead. Well, I was just going to say like you do such a good job at embodied framing the question that like as the crux of the book is like if somebody experiences an incongruence between their – what did you say? Physical sense of self and emotional sense of self?

Their internal sense of self and their biological sex. Like if a biological – So if you want to frame it in just raw scientific categories, if a biological male has an internal sense of themselves as not male, or there's some incongruence, tension with the fact that they are biologically male, then which one are they? Does their internal sense of who they are, is that more indicative of personhood? If so, then we should move that person, help that person align whatever it is that's incongruent with their internal sense of self. Or if their biological sex is more indicative of who they are as a human person, then we should help accept that reality. And again, I'm trying to frame it in the most neutral way. Obviously, I have a view of which direction is more correct, for lack of better terms.

But I think I want to help people at least frame the conversation, what it actually is, rather than using language adopted from conversion therapy and ex-gay stuff and mapping that on the trans conversation, nobody has helped. Nobody has helped when we do that. That's my biggest. Well, I was going to ask, like, can you even, because that is, to me, that is such a helpful way to frame the conversation. And I don't even know if you can't, I don't think you can correlate that to the sexuality conversation like if somebody yeah has male parts but they're attracted to people with male parts like that isn't it doesn't there's no way

to to transfer that so right even trying to help people it just becomes a misnomer there and the loudest voices who are echoing my concern are secular gay men and women, but more, I would say more men. James Cantor, one of the leading sexologists who's not religious, not conservative, he's gay. He's the one who's been writing furiously on this correlation because you have the hot, very, very high up organization. So the opening line of the documentary is true that virtually every organization not only correlates these two things, sexual orientation and gender identity, but they say that, you know, it's the whole thing is harmful. And James, and so the American Academy of Pediatrics came out with a statement showing the harm of gender identity change efforts. And

James Cantor, a gay man, wrote a scathing critique of this saying, every citation you're giving here is of sexual orientation change efforts. And you're using those studies to condemn so-called gender identity change efforts when there's all kinds of therapeutic differences between somebody dealing with gender dysphoria and somebody experiencing same-sex attraction. And it was embarrassing. I read both the statement and his scathing article, and I'm like, wow, how did this get through the editorial? Because the stuff he was saying was like, citing this study, sexual orientation, not gender identity, this study, this study, the whole, it was just so sloppy.

It's like, how can professionals get away with this? And a lot of gay men, this is one of my blogs that's coming out this week, I think. They're saying, okay, here's what we know. 80% of children with gender dysphoria ends up going away through puberty. We also know that an overwhelming majority of them will end up being gay. So if a biological male has gender dysphoria, for 80%, that will go away and they will almost always end up being a gay male. a gay male. If we set that person on a path toward biological change, that is closer to sexual orientation change efforts because you're taking a gay, what's going to be a gay man and turning him into a heterosexual female because he doesn't match the, in their view, the gender

stereotypes of what masculinity is. So this is why a lot of gay men especially are saying, this is triggering me. Like, this seems like a weird, almost worse Orwellian version of conversion therapy. And you guys are saying the opposite of that is conversion therapy. Like, it's a whole language game. Andrew Sullivan, one of the main gay activists from the 80s and 90s, he's the one who said, this is conversion therapy all over again, only it's more invasive because you're actually performing irreversible surgeries. This is almost like lobotomies from 100 years ago, the old school conversion therapy. And again, I'm not even saying that all of these critiques are legit.

Some of them are a little kind of over the top or whatever. these critiques are legit some of them are a little kind of over the top or whatever but it's just interesting that when you map these two together it's like wait there's a much more complex conversation that needs to happen here and yeah it's so anyway yeah i was a little turned off by the film in the first three seconds when they did that a couple questions your way real quick yes yes yeah how did you feel when uh what's his face started his talk off by talking about the importance of grace and truth oh i know gosh i was like well um yeah i don't that that was uh ricky right ricky chalet yeah i don even know. I've heard of the name, so I don't know much about him. So I don't know. Um,

are they representing him correctly? I mean, Julie obviously had that story she shared about Ricky encouraging her to share her rape story when she wasn't ready. That was, that was bad. Um, but I always raise a question like,

is that an accurate portrayal of him? So I don't, I can't really say anything about him in particular. I will say that that, that is a pretty generic way of framing things So I can't really say anything about him in particular. I will say that that is a pretty generic way of framing things that I have adopted. Other people adopt the grace truth thing. Functionally or practically, we might end up saying quite different things. Because I don't know what Christian is going to say. Well, there might be a few. What Christian isn't going to

verbally say, we need to have both grace and truth in the sexuality conversation. I think most would sign off on that, but what that looks like might be very different. So that's where I was like, it's not hurtful. When people see that framed in that way in a documentary, and then when they hear me say grace and truth, it's easy for them to map all of that on kind of what I'm doing. And people have said that, like you're just doing reparative therapy, which is weird, but you cover it up with this grace message, but it's not real or I don't know. Yeah. My question is, and I think you've talked about this on the show before, but I don't remember what you said. What do you do when you have someone like a John Polk or Michael Bussey who gets married

and realizes it doesn't make them straight? Hmm. Yeah, that's a good question. And I'm not sure I have a tailored answer. Are you saying they were under the impression that getting married would make them straight? Yeah. So I would 100% disagree with that, that getting married will make you straight. So I would say that's really sad and unfortunate that the person was under that impression. So I would help them maybe deal with that.

I'm not a psychologist. I would help them to understand that I'm so sorry, but you were fed a wrongheaded message that this is going to make you straight. And the underlying assumption, again, is that straightness is more holy than non-straightness, which can I get a shout out from all those straight people out there who struggle with porn and lust and, you know, it's like, like my friend Greg Cole says, why, why do people think that if I become straight, he's gay, it's going to make me more holy. Like there's a lot of straight sexual struggles. Am I just giving up one struggle for another? Like, you know? Um, so yeah, I, I, I think it's a wrong view of straightness. I think

it's a wrong transactional message that they were fed. It's also a wrong view of, well, not wrong. It's just a very, very modern Western view of marriage that has elevated even sexual attraction far above what is necessary for living out the vocation of marriage. We've made marriage. I mean, this is, what, 150 years old. On the scene of human history that has always had marriage, as of like 150 years ago,

we made marriage primarily about so-called falling in love and romance and everything. That's a very modern, very new Western view of framing marriage. I'm not saying that those things don't exist can't exist shouldn't exist i'm saying to make that the main thing like if i if someone says to me hey i'm getting married and if i say why what are they gonna say because i'm in love they're in love yeah she's got a great butt and uh good job and we love it. They have these euphoric chemical reaction when I'm around her, the falling in love feeling. And not if, but when. I think scientists say

that those last about 18 to 24 months. Your body can't sustain that kind of those chemicals going on in your brain to give you that feeling when you're around the person. If you think that that's the glue that's going to hold your marriage together, there has to be something deeper, more profound, something that does go deeper and beyond simply sexual attraction, romantic feelings and stuff. I sound so stoic when I say that, but again, I'm not saying those are bad things. I'm just saying those can't be the fundamental things, which is why. The divorce rates are, I don't know how much higher, but I mean, since we have made those the fundamental things about marriage, the divorce rate has been off the chart compared to historical marriages. And not to praise every other historical form of marriage because those

have bad problems too every every kind of cultural expression of marriage has had its own pros and cons but let's not think that um falling in love and romantic attraction is kind of the intrinsic thing that marriage is the way you know across the board so where am i going with this sorry Sorry, I'm talking too much, Tony. To answer your question, I would want to help the person have a better understanding of what marriage is and what it is for. One that puts the potential of sexual attraction in its proper place is how I would frame it. And I don't care what your orientation, like I would say that to anybody regardless of orientation.

Yeah, that's good. I would add to it that like we, there's an assumption there that if you get married and you realize it didn't make you straight, that divorcing and marrying someone of the same sex will satisfy all your longings and desires. We don't really – our culture doesn't really have room for what Karl Rahner said when he said, in this life, all symphonies remain unfinished. We don't have a category for that. There's always going to be a little ache for more. We're always going to want more than what we have. And our sense of satisfaction will always be greater than our sense of gratitude.

Or sorry, our sense of satisfaction will never be as great as our longings. And so I think because we live in such a consumeristic culture, we're programmed to believe from the beginning. We can actually get everything we want, and we can actually get every longing satisfied here and now. And I just don't think that's possible. And I think the real task isn't how do I become heterosexual? But the real task is how do I learn to live with unmet longings? How do I learn to live with unfulfilled desires? to live with with unfulfilled desires because no matter what you do no matter who you sleep with no matter like what you do to your marriage or what belief system you have you're always going

to have unfulfilled desires that's that is so good and honestly it's my friends like yourself who are in so-called mixed orientation marriages and they've and they have healthy marriages, because most marriages have a degree of unhealthiness there, but it's people like yourself and several other friends of ours, some mutual, who have taught me that more than anything. Living with... Can I even frame it in almost like a Piper-ish sort of way, like the joy of living with unfulfilled desires. And I really mean that. I just think in my own... When I have lived... It's like fasting or living when you have financial... When you're not padded financially, when you're living a more simple life, when you're eating not luxurious, heavy, rich foods, which bring momentary pleasure,

but over time just weigh you down. And when and when you're eating and I'm convicted myself, cause I'm got a lunch engagement today and I'm going to a place that has amazing wings and I'm probably gonna eat too much, but, and have a good beer too, which does go great hand in hand and didn't destroy you later. But, um,

uh, you know what I mean? Like when you live the luxurious life, it doesn't, that deep seated happiness. I don't live the luxurious life, it doesn't, that deep-seated happiness, I don't know. I've experienced more happiness when my life is more simple, when there is unmet desires. It's just what you're saying. When there's desires that I want to, cravings that I want to meet, and then when they go unmet, it's hard in the moment, long-term,

and obviously I feel like I'm flourishing more as a human. Is that, I don to meet. And then when they go unmet, it's hard in the moment, long-term. And obviously I feel like I'm flourishing more as a human. Is that, I don't know. Totally. Well, and everything in culture is designed to exploit your desires. Um, and this goes back to what I was talking about with the church where we exploit people's desperations. We've appropriated culture in doing that rather than contradicting culture by teaching us how to live with, with unmet desires. And, um, yeah. So, and I, and it is, I'm not there. I mean, it's, it's a long, you're literally undoing your entire existence way of taking in information because that is the American dream is consumer.

Wow. Well, we got to wrap this up bro i can keep talking for hours um i forgot we're recording i thought we're just hanging out um i i do want to say i about bethel real quick um i haven't reached i haven't researched bethel in a few years so their stance on this stuff could be different than it was a couple years ago and I just wanted to get that out there also it's possible to participate in conversion therapy without calling it that or realizing that's what you're doing I think if you went back and asked the people I was meeting with um they probably wouldn't have said at the time like no that wasn't conversion therapy that was just healing and all that kind of stuff, because conversion therapy is such a loaded term nowadays. So it's important to, this just further illustrates the point that it's important

that we kind of pave an imagination for LGBTQ Christians, LGBTQ Christians who are clinging to orthodoxy, and that maybe that's where our efforts need to be pushed more towards rather than this other stuff. And I feel compelled to say a word here because I keep hearing this from several friends of mine who would be so-called side B, the same-sex attracted and living according to a historically Christian view of marriage and sexuality, I often ask them, like, what would it take for you to go side A, like to be affirming? Because I know lots of people. Once a week, I probably hear of a story where somebody who was side B was living according to traditional sexual ethic that changed their view to affirming. And I would say at least 90 to 90% of the time, when I had the opportunity to ask for their reasoning, it's almost verbatim.

I cannot take the conservative church environment anymore. I cannot take the conservative church environment anymore. I even asked friends of mine who are still very much committed to the orthodox sexual ethic, and we kind of explore like, what would it, like, does that resonate with you? They said, 100%, 100%. As long as I am still treated implicitly, usually, like a second-class citizen, as long as I'm still being policed with what terms I use to describe my sexual orientation, as long as I'm looked at with suspicion, as long as I'm not qualified for leadership positions, even though I'm qualified for leadership positions. I'm thinking of someone like Greg Johnson, who I had on the podcast a couple months ago,

who is the most sexually pure human I've personally ever met. He's never touched, he's never held hands with another person that he's attracted to. He has, he's vigilant about, I don't think he's ever, I don't want to quote him on this, but struggled with porn.

Like he's vigilant about making sure his screen is clean. He has accountability partners. He's, I mean, this guy, and he's like 49 or something. And this has been his, and for people, and this is going on in the PCA, like there's, it's possible that he may be unqualified for ministry. That infuriates me. That, if it infuriates me. If it infuriates me, I can only imagine other people who are trying to

live out this sexual ethic that's hard enough in itself, let alone to have this kind of church culture. We as so-called conservative, I hate that term. Those who embrace a traditional sexual ethic as Christians, if, if we don't make some serious changes to our church culture that stops doing that, we are responsible. We are playing a role in pushing gay or ASSA people toward an affirming theology. I'm not saying they don't own that. I'm not saying they don't have agency. I'm not saying that that's right. I'm just saying that certain cultures are nurturing that journey. And yeah, it's discouraging when I hear people say they're passionate about the theology, but then they're doing things that are actually pushing people away from that theology. Absolutely. I resonate with everything you just said.

Nothing bad that would be helpful at this point. That touches deep. Yeah. Yeah. Anything else with the movie before we go? Did we cut touch? I think I covered. I think so.

I do want to, I want to, as we're closing up, thanks for taking a break from talking about critical race theory to have this conversation with me. I do want to say publicly, I so appreciate the way you handle most discussions, but especially kind of shift gears, the race discussion. It has been a breath of fresh air, dude.

So I appreciate that. I don't know any other podcast where I'm going to get genuinely the other person's perspective, especially, I hate to say this, but especially a Christian podcast. So keep up what you do. It's important. especially, I hate to say this, but especially a Christian podcast. So keep up what you do. It's important. And yeah, I appreciate you a lot, man. I appreciate that. That's a scary, yeah, the race conversation.

People say, where are you at on that? I don't know where you're at. I'm like, ask me in 10 years after I've read 100 books and talked to 1's, it's the only thing I can say is it is way more complex than people make it out to be. And if the only thing Christians have said about race is we need to stand up against CRT, then you've, you've already missed it. Where have you been the last several decades? You know, if that's your public contribution to the race conversation is anti-CRT, then virtually every black person is rolling their eyes saying you're still not – you still aren't giving it. Not that you shouldn't be anti-CRT.

I'm not even saying be pro-CRT. I'm just saying like at least acknowledge how tone deaf that is that we've been silent on this for so long. And if now we're being public, that just – it's unhelpful. All right. I got to go. I got to go do some stuff here. Yeah. Love you, bro.

Great talking to you. Great thoughts. Yeah, as always. Thanks. Thanks. Thank you.