Theology in the Raw - S9 Ep903: The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill: Mike Cosper

Episode Date: September 21, 2021

Mike is the creator and host of the uber popular podcast series: “The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill,” which many people have praised and some people have critiqued. Mike and I talk about some of the concerns or pushbacks of this podcast, along with some of the things he hopes to accomplish through it. Theology in the Raw Conference - In Person or OnlineAt the Theology in the Raw conference, we will be challenged to think like exiles about race, sexuality, gender, critical race theory, hell, transgender identities, climate change, creation care, American politics, and what it means to love your democratic or republican neighbor as yourself. Different views will be presented. No question is off limits. No political party will be praised. Everyone will be challenged to think. And Jesus will be upheld as supreme. Faith, Sexuality, and Gender Conference - Live in Boise or Stream Online In the all-day conference, Dr. Preston Sprinkle dives deep into the theological, relational, and ministry-related questions that come up in the LGBTQ conversation. Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.comVenmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkleInstagram | @preston.sprinkleYoutube | Preston Sprinkle Twitter | @RawTheologyInstagram | @TheologyintheRaw Check out Dr. Sprinkle’s website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology Narah. All right, I've got Mike Cosper on the show today. Mike is the creator and host of the uber popular Rise and Fall of Mars Hill podcast series. It's going to be a 12-part series. I think he's in episode, I want to say eight right now. And it's stirred up a lot of discussions, some controversy as well. And so we talk a lot about that, kind of why he created it, what he hopes to get out of discussions, some controversy as well. And so we talk a lot about that, kind of why he created it, what he hopes to get out of it, what he wants the church to learn from the series. And then he responds to a whole bunch of criticism that he's gotten through the creation of the podcast. So this is super raw, super honest conversation. You're really

going to enjoy it. All right. Here with Mike Cosper, the man of the Christian hour. What, what, um, I just,

I'm almost done with the most recent episode. I've listened to most, all, I've listened to them all, but there's been glitches where I usually listen to podcasts at night. So sometimes I'll, I'll fall asleep. I'll pick it up the next morning. I'm like,

Oh, I got to go back and finish. But anyway, I've listened to almost all of it. And, uh, I, i've really enjoyed it and then i started googling around and saw that a lot of other people really enjoyed it too but man yeah it's it's definitely kicked the hornet's nest um what i guess we could start by like what

what led you to do this was this something that was like years in the making or do you have i don't even know if you have like a personal connection with mars hill i know you obviously know a lot of people on the inside but did you know mark or sure yeah just what led to creating this this thing yeah so i i helped plan the church in 2000 in louisville uh called sojourn and i served on the staff there for for about 15 years. And in 2003 or so, like late 03, early 04, we joined X29. So they'd been up and running for quite a few years. Darren Patrick connected with us kind of through the SBC and recruited us to the network and said, hey, you know, great partnerships for church planting, all of that. We knew who Driscoll was. I'd first heard Driscoll at a conference back in 2001, a month after 9-11, this kind of wild event where he, you know, it was like early emergent days.

And so it's a month after 9-11, and the coordinators of this conference decided to kind of try and do like a, you know – I don't mean this in a derogatory way but kind of like a peace, love and happiness. Like let's come together with our Muslim neighbors and yeah. And Driscoll was having none of it. So he showed up and screamed at everybody for an hour and and and went away and it was left him left an impression um what was that you talked about that in the podcast right you have clips for that that's right yeah when he got in like some people are pushing back in a section oh right okay so you were there that's right yeah i was i was in the room and it was kind of a legendary thing

you know i came to find out kind of a legendary thing for a lot of the guys at Mars Hill, um, because it, it just was sort of like a delineation moment for them with, um, that relationship with a lot of the kind of emergent crew. Okay. So, yeah, so we were reformed, you know, um, had, had a lot of sort of commonality. I mean, the missional vision of Acts 29, those early days was really, it was really theologically driven. There was a lot of talk about new begin and, um, you know, yeah, it was, it was, it was a very different feel than it was maybe five, six years later. Um, and so we were really drawn to that and we're a part of it until 2010. That was around the time of, um, like the elephant room and all that, that stuff started

to happen. And, uh, so, so as that's going on, we had a clearer vision for, you know, what we wanted to do with church planting and, and made our exit. And, um, but, you know, over those years, got to know a lot of those folks, met Mark a few times. He was always really kind to me, uh, kind of my family. And, um, but you know, but also heard the stories, you know, heard the stories from people who worked there about what it was like on the inside. So how long was it when you started to think about doing, doing this podcast series? So then yeah, for sure. Um, you know, I got into podcasting in 2016 as sort of what I felt like was an opportunity to do some storytelling that could serve the church.

Um, so did a variety of things for a number of years, but I'd say probably pretty early on, maybe 2017, 2018, I started thinking about this story. Wow. Um, not seriously, but just kind of in the back of my head, like this could be a really interesting, you know, really interesting story to tell as a podcast. And in part, because in spite of the fact that it got a lot of news coverage, it got a lot of blog coverage, you, you didn't hear a lot from people who were really on the inside, who were leading the organization, trying to lead it through the crisis. You know, the story was often told through like leaked documents, leaked letters,

you know, PR statements, which, you know, you know how PR statements are, right? It's like, everything's kind of, kind of fine tuned and spun. So man, it was just an awesome opportunity when I came to CT and, and kind of pitched it to the folks here. Like, I think we could do this. Um, they gave me a lot of time and a lot of, a long leash to, to get it done. Did you think it would be so popular? No. I mean, honestly, like, and you can say yes. I mean, uh, no, no, no. I mean, we thought it would do well. I mean, in sort of in the Christian podcast space, you know, I think we expected it to do pretty well. Um, cause it feels like a, like a space with a lot of opportunity with a big audience and not a lot of stuff that's kind of produced at this level.

So we thought it would do well there. Um, you know, at one point on the, like the overall iTunes charts, it was like number three for a few days. We did not expect anything. I did not expect anything like that. So not just Christian, the overall, cause I know it's been at like popping out, I think all the Christian charts, right? Yeah.

Wow. Yeah, overall it was number three for a couple of weeks. Move over, Joe Rogan. You might get Spotify called in pretty soon. That's right. Yeah. So, you know, and what happened is we just ran into this situation where I think a lot of people heard kind of the way we were telling the story. And these were people who had told us no three, six, nine months before, um, heard what we were doing with the storytelling and said, okay, I think, I think I'm, I'm ready to jump in. Yeah. And just to keep up with the reporting, we had to sort of slow down the release schedule and,

uh, cause we, we felt like a lot of these voices are really critical to it. Well, yeah, I just, yeah. So in your most recent one, you said that you're getting a lot of people now contacting you saying, hey, I got a story to tell. And so you're slowing it down a bit. I think that's smart. Yeah. Well, I mean I would like to know maybe more of the back story and was it – pull this thing off. I mean it's brilliant. It's beautifully done.

It's – and the popularity of of it and maybe that's that's some of the criticism we can get into but at the i mean just aesthetically it's it's like it's like uh it's it's just yeah i'm eager for the next one too not not because of failure porn we'll get into that but like i it's just done so well so So, yeah, what are some of the criticism that you've had to wrestle? What are some of the main things that have people have raised criticisms of? Maybe not in criticism, but just like – Yeah, I guess we can say criticism. Let's start there.

Sure, sure, sure. Yeah, no, I don't mind speaking to that. You know, it sort of ends up like at the ends, various ends of the ideological spectrum, right? Okay. So I think from sort of more progressive Christianity, I think they'd like to hear more progressive voices, particularly those who were critical of the church for a long, long time. And we've tried to give some space to that, you know, at various moments. Progressive voices that were part of the church or? No, that were sort of external critics and, you know, offered external analysis

over time, right? Like other bloggers and other voices, you know, and on the episode where we talked about kind of women's experience in the church, we tried to sort of make sure we gave some space to that and talked about, particularly talked about Rachel Held Evans. And, you know, she was one of the most sort of consistent critics of Driscoll. Right. But I think from that end, you know, there were other voices, Matthew Paul Turner and other folks who were doing that for a long time. And then at the other end of the spectrum, I think, you know, that episode in particular, that, that seems to be the episode that kind of stirred up the most dirt, uh, dust.

Um, because we, we really tried to let the episode kind of let the story be what it was and not theologize too much. Okay. Like here's what women experienced, you know, here were the voices that, that, that they heard. And so, you know, I live in a, I go to a church that's primarily complementarian, you know, and kind of live in that world. So a lot of my complementarian friends were like, it sounds like you're saying complementarianism is the problem. And I said, no, I mean, that's the context, right? And the community that was around Mark was that way. I think there are questions to be asked like, is this in the Overton window?

And why is it in the Overton window for complementarianism? Why were his books endorsed that way? Why was he welcomed into that community? I think those are hard questions that for some folks, we've never gotten good answers for. But yeah, that's been a critique. It's been critiqued as though it were an attack on complementarianism. And I think it's more about culture than theology in a lot of ways.

It's more about sort of dominance and leadership culture even. Like how are leaders leading to get what they want out of a community? If that makes sense. Yeah, totally. And I, yeah, I don't, um, to say it's a critique on con, I mean, there are healthy versions of complementarianism and more biblical versions for full equality in value and gifting. And well, like I said, I'm not about to get into the women in leadership

thing but i mean and then there's very unhealthy versions where it is male dominated um male there is an oppressive air there is a belittling a misogyny that just kind of is there and to say that all of that's complementarian, I think is unfair. And yeah, there are a lot of unhealthy versions of complementarianism out there. But to say that complementarianism breeds an unhealthy whatever, it's like, well, anything's going to have its better and worse forms of it. So yeah, I don't. Yeah. I mean, and you can look at other scandals in the evangelical world and then, you know, in the last number of years, um, you know, whether it's, you know, the accusations against Chris Hewitt's, who's sort of more in the progressive wing, you know, Bill Hybels was

like the champion of egalitarian leadership in the church for 20 years or more. Um, and he was, you know, by all accounts, I mean, he's, he's, he has credible accusations of being a sexual predator. Yeah. So, you know, to sort of lump it into like, well, this is a theological issue. We need to beat that drum harder. I just don't think it's accurate to the broader scope of what was going on when, when generally that kind of predatory behavior and that kind of, um, authoritarian culture is more about

culture than theology. And any theology can be turned into a bludgeon if you want to. To me, if I could sing in listening to the podcast and knowing some stuff on the inside, it does seem to me, as I identify the main problem, which you've addressed several times, is you got to almost an Enneagram 8, but like a very, very unhealthy Enneagram eight, who has probably would be diagnosed with clinical narcissism and a ton of power. You know, you, you wrap all that up in the one, throw in the exhaustion of ministry and, and throw that person on stage, you get critiques against him. And then he's back to the corner and narcissists act you know respond

a certain way to me that really is this that seems to be the the main kind of thing that sunk the ship would you agree with i mean because some of the other like even i don't know like like there was a lot of stuff about mars hill that looking back it's like that it wasn't bad in and of itself, you know, the challenge, you know, guys to be responsible and show up on time and we're going to lock the doors if you don't show, you know, the dementia retreat thing. And like, some of that's kind of like, well, it's a little bit, yeah, we should, you know, like, I don't know, there's some goodness in a lot of this stuff they were doing. That's what I appreciate about the podcast. I think

you really brought that out and people were touched by a lot of things with the ministry. But yet the center, you had this highly narcissistic person and that's going to be toxic in so many ways. You know, one of the things I found interesting and wasn't really able to go down the road just because of sort of time and space in the podcast. But if you look at a lot of what Mark taught around, um, this whole idea of like extended adolescence and this idea that adolescence is a very modern invention, it didn't exist a hundred years ago. Um, I always say like, go read, um, uh, I can't remember the exact name of it, but Richard Rohr has a book on like the five steps of male initiation. Right. on like the five steps of male initiation, right? And, and his whole thing, like Roar,

obviously from a very different place is, is looking at manhood in our culture and saying, men don't have a clear sense of transition from, you know, from being a boy into being a man. And historically, almost every culture in, in world history did. And they marked it in a significant way and they honored it and they made it a meaningful transition. And so in a way, like you look at some of these moments with Mark, whether it was that Saturday morning at the paradox or, you know, for some folks, you know, maybe that sermon where he's screaming, you know, how dare you? Who do you think you are or whatever? You know, they end up being these kinds of milestones in people's lives. And, um, you know, I, I talked to people about that, that Saturday morning in particular, where they got the rocks and they went home and some of these guys were like, yeah, I mean, you know, very disillusioned with the church, very, very disillusioned with Mark, but they're like, but you know, I've still got the rocks. I mean, it meant something to me, you know, it was,

it was a line in the sand for me. So yeah, it's, it's, and that's what, that's part of what's so fascinating about the story is these things are just never clean. They're never, you know, they're never black and white when you're in the midst of them because there's so much community going on because you didn't experience it alone. Like, yeah, you've got this guy, you might have wounds, but then there were like 10 people around you and those relationships mattered and still matter. And that's as much the source of the hurt is kind of the lost context as anything else. Hey, friends, I want to invite you to come out to the Theology in the Raw conference next spring, March 31st through April 2ndnd it's here in boise or you can live

stream it early bird registration ends on september 30th okay so you get a discount if you register before september well before october 1st uh if you're coming out to um attend the conference live here in boise all the information is on my website press and sprinkle.com again if you are planning on coming out you definitely want to take advantage of the early bird registration, which is about to end. I want to talk about that failure porn article. I read it.

I thought it raised some good points. And I love the fact that you've retweeted it. And you were like, this is good. And he wasn't even, this is Liam Thatcher. And basically, if even – this is – is it Liam Thatcher? Liam Thatcher. Yeah.

Yeah. And basically, if I could summarize it, you can clarify or jump in or correct. Just that the concern is that the byproduct of this – not the intention. I love that he pointed it out. Like, I don't think this is intended to do this, but there is this failure porn kind of thing going on at a church where we're getting off quite literally on seeing yet another powerful leader fall. We hate the – speaking truth to power and see this is what – and it's almost like we almost enjoy it. Like kind of like can't stop looking at the car wreck. How do you – how have you thought through that and what are your thoughts on that?

Do you think there's some valid concern there? Yeah. Yeah, no, I definitely think there's valid concern. Early in the process, I interviewed somebody who was deeply involved at Mars Hill. And she really surprised me with this comment because she told her story and it was really heartbreaking. And then at the end of the conversation, she says, listen, I just want to encourage you on one thing. I want to encourage you to be sure that, um, you try, try not to focus the story around people who don't love Mark. Um, and that, that really, really surprised me because, um,

I just, it just wasn't a question that had sort of gotten into my framing yet. And this was maybe a year ago. But her point was this community was such a rich experience for people. And Mark did great harm and Mark did great good. And if we just tell stories from people who are, uh, who, who come in without that context for what was good about the church and what was rich about the church, you just, you miss the story. And I think, I think when I think about the kind of the failure porn line of thinking, I mean, there's a lot of podcasts out right now that are, there's like two

right now about, uh, uh, Jerry Falwell Jr. Um, Gangster Capital has one and then Wondery has one. And, uh, you know, they're, they're produced with excellence. They're, they're well done and all of that. Um, but they're not, they're not making those podcasts trying to serve the church, you know, trying to, trying to help the church. And, you know, this is a 12 episode series. We have a lot of story left to go. There's been a lot of ups and downs and everything. My hope is that for the people who stick with us to the end, we're able to kind of land in a place where people go like, oh, here's a vision for a better and more beautiful church, you know? Um, and you know, if, if we missed the mark on that, then that's, that's how it's a failure.

Um, and, and that'll be sad for us. Yeah. And, and that's where I think the failure porn critique really comes in. Um, are we, are we in it because we love the church or are we in it because we love the, the car wreck? And that's something like, like, it's not the intent. Like if somebody struggles with failure porn, then that's not really on you. I guess somebody could say, well, you're creating something that's going to further that addiction or whatever.

But it's like change the channel. Like they're responsible to not like a porn. The analogy does break down because it's like you're not actually creating the porn that is whatever. But yeah, it sounds like your main motivation, and tell me if I'm on the mark here, is that we can just learn from these mistakes. And even maybe help people who are in a similar situation because what's going on there? There's a lot of narcissistic, unhealthy Enneagram 8 pastors out there. I don't want to rip on Enneagram. And they can be in a church of 50 or 500 or 5,000.

Like it's not just a megachurch thing. It's not just a Mark Driscoll thing. Yeah. So what is your ultimate – if you can summarize your ultimate goal in which you would want people to take away listening to the whole series, what would that be? Well, we're very intentional in the fact that the podcast is called The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill and not The Rise and Fall of Mark Driscoll. OK. Because – and again, like you can't tell the Mars Hill story without telling

Mark's story. We talk a lot about Mark and we will continue to, but what makes this story unique is that, you know, you know, there's a lot of fallen pastors, but not every fallen pastor and not many fallen pastor stories end in the collapse of the church. Um, and so Mark resigns in the collapse of the church. And so Mark resigns in the middle of October, January 1st, there is no Mars Hill anymore. And that says a lot. My sense is that a lot of what we see inside Mars Hill is kind of a loud, amplified version of what's going on in a lot of churches. And part of that's due to just the fact that Mark, you know, was sort of unapologetic about what he did and why he did it. And he just said things loudly that would more often be said sort of quietly or behind closed doors, right? I'm eager for the church to kind of hear this story and understand that bigger dynamic, the collapse of the church, the loss of the context of community, and to ask questions

about why we're here, why are we gathered, what are we in it for? For pastors in particular, I mean, yeah, it's funny. I was just with a group of like a really large group of pastors last night, some of whom pastors of pretty big churches. And somebody asked me this exact question. And the phrase that came to mind, this will probably make its way into the podcast, was just, I want us all to remember our death, right? We're going to die. What are we going to leave in our wake? we're going to die. What are we going to leave in our wake? And, you know, it was very clear to me that, you know, you look at the Mars Hill story, the church collapsed because Mark resigned. Would the church have been able to sustain Mark getting run over by a bus? Because it was so built around him. And then we need to ask similar questions about our own communities. Um, and then we need to ask similar questions about our own communities. Um, and you know, I, I think all the time it was like a kind of a catchphrase for us when I was, when I was in ministry at the church, there was this old, um, you know, this old sort of motto for Moravian missionaries, they would say, preach the gospel, die and

be forgotten. Um, is there a way for that to drive our ministry? And, and if that was the philosophy of ministry, how much would that change the way we think about media, platform, legacy, all that kind of stuff? Do you see that as a growing problem in evangelicalism or is that actually being addressed? The fact that the church is being built around a personality. Do you think that's increasing or decreasing? I mean, I think in one sense, I think it's been with the church from the very beginning, right? Like the whole, you know, Paul addressing in the epistles, like, you know, this one says I follow Paul.

This one says I follow Apollos, all that kind of stuff. So the desire to attach ourselves to a person is always a temptation. I mean, it goes back to the kings, right? Like God, like, tries to make it really clear. Like, you don't want a king. You want prophets. I promise, you know, to the kings, right? Like, God, like, tries to make it really clear, like, you don't want a king, you want prophets, I promise, you know, you're not going to like this. And so, yeah, I mean, I think that's, I think there's just something innate in us. We want someone who we can look at and, and kind of identify with. I think what heightens it for us is that, you know, we live in a secular age. People have sort of a simmering spiritual anxiety as a result of that. And so if you show up to church and

you're like, I'm not real sure about like the God thing. I'm not real sure if like when I hear people talk about hearing from the Lord or experiencing God, I'm not sure if I can trust my own experience and my own instincts with that. And then a charismatic guy gets up on stage and he goes, well, I've heard from God and God said this, and he has this grand plan for your life. Um, it's way easier in that circumstance to kind of give our agency over. Um, and yeah. And I, and so I think that's what is sort of unique about our time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I felt that as part of Francis Chan's church for a bit. And he's like the counter opposite of a Mark. Like he would tell people, you know, go somewhere else, like leave.

Like he tried so hard not to make it about himself. He's just – but very similarly, such charismatic figure that um i could feel it like you're there and when he's on stage sharing about his faith walk it's it's so easy to live vicariously through him you know and feel like you are part of his spirituality by listening to him you know um no i don't i don't know how to get around that i mean would he tell the guy not to speak because he's kind of like the failure of porn. Like he's doing something really good but he's also – the byproduct can be an unhealthy attachment to a leader. He actually did.

I mean that's one of the reasons why he kind of said I'm done with the megachurch. I'm going to do a house church thing. Sure. Well, I would say – I mean I think the responsibility in that case – like there's an element of responsibility that that Christians need to sort of take on for themselves. Like, I'm not going to project this on them. You know, I'm not going to project my spiritual hopes onto another person. I'm going to I'm going to seek the Lord. I'm going to seek him out in his word and all this.

But I think, you know, the responsibility on pastors and this is one of the things in the Mars Hill story that I sort of knew was there, but it has surprised me how black and white it is in the story, which is how often Mark makes himself the hero of the stories he tells. The heroes of his sermons, the hero of the Mars Hill narrative, you know, and then the Mars Hill narrative shifts over the years and people get written out of it. And, you know, it becomes increasingly over time, more and more about him to where, you know, by 2010, there's like a, you know, there's like a dozen people that you'll never hear their names that were really critical to the story of that church. So I think the more that pastors and church leaders can think about the narrative they're creating around their ministry and their churches and tell it in think about the narrative they're creating around their ministry and their churches and tell it in such a way that they're not the hero, that they're humbled through those events, that they can share these moments of recognition of grace and the need for grace. I think that's really critical. Hey, friends, hope you're enjoying the

conversation so far. And if you are enjoying this conversation and others like it, would you consider supporting the Theology in the Raw ministry by going to patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw. You can support the show for as little as five bucks a month and get access to lots of different kinds of premium content like monthly Patreon only podcasts and blogs and Q&A sessions. Again, you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology nara or all the info is in the show notes okay i got a few comments here from that twitter thread i which i you know i did not expect that because i wasn't really that aware that this was like a controversial thing i was expecting to get a bunch of like more like five

or six responses you know like oh what was it like putting together a podcast? I think we did have that one. But so anyway, I deleted most of the stupid ones. There's one here. I kept, I'm like, should I read this just to, bring it on.

Go, let's go for it. This one was interesting. I went to John MacArthur's seminary in college. And so this question, why, how, how come there was no interaction with John MacArthur and

his team who consistently warned about this? Yeah, I got some thoughts, but yeah, I would love to hear yours on that. Sure. Well, again, like, you know, part of, part of what I've been saying kind of all along in this process is that it's a church of 15,000 people, 15 years or 18 years. Um, you know, all these different associations, all these different, you know, relationships, all these different critics and everything, you know, it would just be impossible to sort of give, give voice to all of them. I think for one thing, story's not over yet. We have like, we have some elements of the story yet to tell. Um, and, and we'll get into a couple more of those kinds of intersections. Um, but, but one of the things we're going to talk about actually next week on the podcast, um, is the way negative

polarization worked to actually strengthen Mark inside the church. And, and what, what I mean by that is that, um, you might be really frustrated with Mark, right? You might be really frustrated. And let's take it out of Marcel for a second. You might be really frustrated with your pastor because you've had some bad meetings and you've seen some things go really, really sideways. But if you then open up, you know, open up your email and there's like an email blast or somebody's started a blog or something and they're just coming at your church and they're coming at your pastor and all of this, the natural human reaction is to kind of retreat to your tribe and, you know, go, well, this, this guy might be a jerk, but he's my jerk. So like, you can't talk about my jerk that way,

you know? Um, and I, I think there was, so I think there's an interesting dynamic around that. And, um, and, and I would say as well, I think I, I look at some of it and, you know, frankly, I would include the most recent, uh, you know, the recent episode of the MacArthur podcast where they deal with some of this stuff. I don't know that the polemic around this stuff has, was constructive. I don't think it, I don't think it think it moved the needle in a constructive way for people that weren't convinced in the first place. And I don't – I mean even though I was in the MacArthur environment when Mark was really taking off, for me the critiques, as I recall,

were more like he wears biker boots when he preaches and not a suit and tie and he's charismatic and he cusses, although maybe we're not sure if that's actually true. Well, no. It was more his edginess. It was like, and I think also for some conservative circles, when somebody is actually like reformed theologically or they're actually pretty conservative theologically,

but they're doing things that feel more progressive that conservatives don't know how to handle that. Typically it's kind of like, no, this is how you do conservative evangelicalism, not that, you know? Um, so, so I don't, I don't remember, I don't personally remember the critique of, you know, he's, this guy's kind of narcissistic and demeaning towards women. I never heard of a Carther follower say, yeah, I think he's a little too harsh on women or, you know, like, well, there was a really, I mean, there was a, he, MacArthur definitely deserves credit when the, when the song Solomon sermon first kind of came out, um, MacArthur wrote a blog post and just eviscerated it and, and well, well done. Like it, it needed to be done. And, and again, like it's,

you know, we, we did say in that episode, I mean, Colin Hanson talked about it, like MacArthur was right about Mark, um, in ways that a lot of other people got wrong. Um, and, and so, and that's the other thing about this that always kind of gets me. I'm like, I think at least three episodes now we've acknowledged MacArthur was right. And I don't know what else to do except to go like, yeah, MacArthur was right. Like we, we see it like, but, but I, I do think, I mean, again, like I just, what interests me about the story is not necessarily how much was the commentary there because there was a ton of it. What interests me is what moved the needle and which way did it move the needle? And was there constructive

criticism that actually moved the needle and changed things and where it wasn't there? And I'm just not sure that the pyromaniacs and kind of all that effort that went into that, all that heat in the rhetoric really moved the needle at all. Yeah. Here's another one. And this one, it's public, it's on Twitter. And I know nothing about this. Since it's public, I have no um and i know nothing about this since it's public i'm i don't probably read it but if you're like dude i don't want to get into that that's really fine um because well two people said i'm friends with a so a former sojourner elder who claims that sojourn the church used the pastor began to exhibit similar leadership problems on mars hill

um would love to hear your thoughts on this matter and somebody somebody else says, I used to work at Sojourn. And yes, this is an issue. So do you want to speak into that at all? Sure. Yeah, I mean, we spoke, you know, I spoke to it some on the first episode. But yeah, I mean, we were, there's a lot in ministry you look back on and go, man, I wish there were some things I could take back. Some things I said, some things I wish I could do differently over the years. Um, and you know,

when I left in the years since I left ministry and, and, uh, local church ministry in 2015, I've tried to sort of go back and look for like, are there people, are there things I would do different? Are there people that maybe have residual wounds that I need to try to make things right with? And Hey, if any of y'all are listening, like email me, my, my DMS are open. I want to hear from you and I want to have those conversations. Um, but what I think, you know, what I think a lot of that refers to is, you know, we had, um, the, the main reason I left the ministry was that probably starting around 2010,

our leadership culture got really toxic. We had kind of a revolving door around our executive team and revolving door around, you know, around our lead pastor in particular. And it created a lot of conflict. I mean, it was just a very, again, by 2015, it was a very hard place to work. And I had worked really hard to try and sort of, you know, try to make it as healthy as I could and left. And then in 2017, that pastor was put on leave and ultimately resigned as a result of that. Is this somebody named – somebody said the long – a decade-long enablement of Daniel Montgomery abuse? Is that what – I don't, again, I would never. Sure. Yeah. No, Daniel was the lead pastor at the time. And look, I haven't named him. I'm not,

you know, flaming him on social media or anything like that. I just, that's not what the podcast is about. It's not my story. It's not, you know, it's about this church. But yeah, I mean, that was the, It's about this church. But yeah, I mean that was the story. And he was – when charges were brought against him by an elder, he was investigated. He was put on leave. He was asked to go through a reconciliation process and at the end of that he resigned. Okay.

Yeah. I don't – I can get more in the weeds to it but I just don't know how constructive it is to really get into the weeds. But I think the concern there is like or the possible accusation. They're not quite saying this, but it's kind of like, hey, you were complicit, too. And so it sounds like the exact opposite that you saw maybe subtler signs of similar things and said that I this is not what I want to be a part of. I don't have it here. Let me just be clear. I don't want to be too dismissive of that. I mean, I think when you're in that culture, and this is something that you see in Mars

Hill, when you're in a culture where there's unhealth and there's unhealthy leaders, you're constantly doing a calculus. And we're trying to highlight this in the story. You're constantly doing a calculus going, here are the ways the ministry is thriving. Here are the problems. You know, do I think by my efforts, I can help right the ship and move things in a good direction? And, you know, one person I interviewed for Mars Hill said this, you know, a few months back. And it just stuck with me, because this was my

experience. You often walked through ministry going, man, I feel like I'm one good conversation away from being able to get our leadership into a really healthy place, a really healthy culture. And, you know, and then one day you wake up and go, I felt like I was one conversation away for four or five years now. Like maybe, maybe I'm fooling myself at this point. And that's when you make the transition. Right. I also wonder too, I mean, I know, so kind of related to the failure of porn, like people really, there is almost an enjoyment to see celebrity sneakers and preachers, church leaders who kind of come off as narcissistic, to see them fall.

It's like, yes, but I don't know if the church has a corner market on unhealthy leadership and the abuse of power. Hashtag me too. Hashtag look at the world around us everywhere. You know, it's like, and that's not. Well, and that's, yeah. Well, and that's what, you know, that's, yeah, well, and that's what, you know, that's where some of the conversation around this that I think gets kind of sidetracked in the

theological argument is, is missing the point. Again, it's not to say there isn't bad theology that causes problems. I totally believe there is. And, and I believe it's an issue the church is dealing with and needs to deal with. But, you know, the answer isn't like, okay, well, we'll just, we just need to all become sort of modern, you know, um, uh, uh, you know, uh, embrace sort of modern, you know, self-expressionism and that's, that's going to make everything okay. Is there anyone who embodied that more than, um, uh, oh gosh, what's his name?

The, uh, The Hollywood producer. As lefty as anybody could be. Harvey. Yeah, Harvey Weinstein. Weinstein, yeah. Just a hardcore leftist activist who was an absolute monster. An absolute monster. So again, I think when we lose sight of the fact

that often these abuses are more about power than they are about ideology, we set ourselves up, partly we set ourselves up for failure because we think, well, it's not going to happen to me because I believe the right things. Right. No, that's good. That's good. Here's another one. I really just want to hear a response to the criticism from Mars Hill victims and his deleted statement about people who have spoken out are, quote, punching down on evangelical subculture. I don't even know what that – do you know what that means? Yes. I know exactly what this story is.

Okay. So a couple of things. I can tell this. I can – man, you're going right for the tweets. I'm just quoting what people have said. You're good, man. You're good. No, I'm happy to actually give an explanation for this.

So April 12th, the New York Times did a story about Abraham Piper. They did a profile of him. This is John Piper's son. He's like a TikTok star and he gets on TikTok every day. And he gets on TikTok every day and he basically, you know, he basically gets on TikTok every day and like throws elbows that, you know, the evangelical subculture that he grew up with. Right. And it's they're funny. They're clever.

He's a really funny guy, like all credit due and all that. But it also kind of reads like if you know the background, it also kind of reads like, dude, this guy got three million followers going online and making fun of his dad every day. You know, this was six weeks after my dad died. That's part of the background on this. So I saw that it irritated me. It definitely got under my skin. And and I also just saw it as like, you know, in the context of so much of this conversation around deconstruction, you're always sort of hearing these words like, you just need to, you just need to evolve,

you know, you just need to move beyond these kind of primitive things. So when I see, when I saw that story and I, and I read it and, you know, it was a, it was a good piece of journalism by Ruth Graham. It was well-written and all of that. But when I saw it, I just kind of thought, man, like, I don't understand. I don't understand why we would look at this as an evolution, right? And, and so to me, you know, to me, it is punching down, like cultural power works all kinds of ways. People want to say, evangelicals have all the cultural power. Well, it depends on where you stand, right? Like, if you're inside evangelicalism, if you're inside conservative circles, evangelicals hold a lot of power. If you're in Hollywood, if you're in the academy, if you're in various aspects of the marketplace, evangelicals have no power and influence whatsoever. So power's always relative. Power's always like, where are you trying to leverage

power? And if you're trying to leverage power and influence in the media, you're way more likely to be able to do it being a progressive Christian going on there or a progressive ex-Christian going on there and making fun of your very, very conservative, famous dad. So that was what the whole thing was about. I said nothing about abuse victims. Absolutely nothing about abuse victims. That's been pulled out of context and thrown around.

And, you know, there, there's some critics of the podcast that are like, yeah, my, you know, Mike was making fun of abuse victims or whatever. Go read the tweet. I mean, they've posted it so many times it's out there. And then, and then, you know, the whole deleted tweets thing, I delete all my tweets. Um, really this phenomenon, like, yeah, like there's this thing called context collapse that, that people have written about that, like, this is a perfect example of it. So if you'd read that tweet on April 12th and known that that story had dropped that day because it was a New York Times like trending story and it was going all over Twitter, it would have been obvious what I was subtweeting. Lesson is never subtweet.

But it would have been obvious to most people that I was subtweeting. But obviously like now, however many months later, somebody comes across that and there's no context for it anymore. So what I'm talking about, it becomes easy to pull it out and go, oh, this jerk, like why is he making fun of victims? There's nothing in there about victims. I was tweeting about one person and I was irritated because it just struck me as distasteful to build a platform making fun of your father. I think this might be the first time somebody was misunderstood and misrepresented on Twitter.

Yeah, I think so. It's a brilliant forum for charitable communication, so it's really shocking to hear. Wow, that's a roomy for a tailspin. Here's another one. If you go look at my Twitter feed, they all delete at like 60 days. I don't have anything on there older than 60 days because – That's a setting you could put on there?

You have to like set up a thing. Like you have to do like a one-time delete. But I read an article in – I think it was in Ink or something like quite a while back where they were basically saying go delete all your tweets right now. And I was like, oh, that's interesting because i'm a twitter junkie and yeah well i was until the podcast i don't post anymore now that the podcast is out dude i've i've really uh i do go on twitter and post sometimes typically i go through hoot suite where i can post something and i don't it's just it posts and I don't see, I don't have to sit there and look at, I mean, I rarely read and almost never respond to comments. It's just not, it's, it's, I mean, I made a policy like two or three years ago. I don't know people know that. People out there listening, like sometimes you ask me a question on Twitter, I'll see, I just,

I don't, they might say, Hey, thanks for your book. And I'll say, Hey, thanks for reading or something like that. But in terms of like engaging and, and constructive when there's like disagreeing kind of issues, it's just, it's not, it's 99% of the time, not productive. So I just stopped. Hello friends. I wanted to let you know about an opportunity to engage the conversation about faith, sexuality, and gender on October 20th through 21st here in Boise, Idaho. We're going to be having a conference on faith, sexuality, and gender on the evening of the 20th. We're going to have a two and a half hour introduction for those of you who just need to get your arms

around the topic. And the next day, October 21st, we're going to have an all day conference where we're going to dig into a lot of aspects of this really important conversation. You can join us live here in Boise, or you can stream it online. And I would highly encourage you to come out if you can make it, but I know that can be expensive or just not possible. So please consider joining us at least through the live stream option

on October 20th or October 21st. All the info is on the website, centerforfaith.com forward slash events. That website centerforfaith.com forward slash events. That's centerforfaith.com forward slash events. Well, here's one that I remember seeing. I don't have it written down here, but I thought it was interesting. I don't know what I personally think about it, but it was kind of a cornering question. Something like, how do you... It was something like, how do you – do you know what I'm going to say? It was something like how do you explain the fact that Christianity Today, who you work for, was complicit in creating this celebrity culture surrounding Mark Driscoll or something like that.

Have you come across that kind of criticism? Yeah. I mean it's an interesting criticism. I think, you know, my only pushback to it would be, I mean, for one thing, like one of the ways Christianity Today is trying to account for the way that they contributed to the celebrity cultures. They've created a podcast in which they're revisiting the entire story and how it happened and, you know, invested in trying to go, why do these things happen? And so there's actually a pretty significant investment by CT trying to go, why, why do these things happen? And, um, so there's actually a pretty significant investment by CT trying, trying to answer that exact question. Um, and we've acknowledged it, you know, I mean, it's, it was, it was part of the, I want to say it was the second or third episode, um, where Colin Hanson, who wrote that profile, um, you know, came on the show and talked about writing the profile and why, and, and things he would have done differently, you know, in hindsight. So, you know, I, we've,

we've attempted to kind of address it directly. And I think we're attempting to direct address it indirectly. I don't know how you get around them. Christianity today is by definition, Christian journalism. So you have to, right. I mean, it's to be a journalist when there's So you have to – right? I mean to be a journalist, when there's high-profile visible things happening, you address them, talk about them. And you can say, well, it's biased against or biased for or whatever. But that's also part of journalism, right? I mean it's not truly biased. Every journalist has a perspective.

Well, Ted Olson said something great on the episode that we did about Josh Harris. Yeah. He said, you know, I hate the word platforming because it doesn't – like it implies things that just aren't really true. Like just because you talk about someone or talk to someone doesn't necessarily mean you're holding them up and going, hey, we should all do this, right? Part of the job of journalists is to be storytellers and to talk about like what is happening right now. And Driscoll was a phenomenon. I mean, Driscoll had a massive influence. He had a massive influence, or I shouldn't say massive. He started having an influence on the North American church a year after he planted in 1996. That's problematic. I mean, I think that's significantly problematic. Like,

why on earth are we taking a guy who did two years of sort of residential ministry at a megachurch and then is a year into planting another church and putting him in front of church leaders and saying, this is how you get it done. Y'all listen to this 27-year-old. But that's a whole other conversation. Like, I, I just think you're going to run into these things where when you tell news stories, you know, what are we supposed to do? Like spend a month vetting every story we tell every profile that we tell. Like, it's just difficult.

And so what you do is, is you tell the stories as you see them and you explore them as honestly and clearly as you can. And then when the facts on the ground change or get clarified in other directions, you try to tell them in other directions. CT published a whole lot of stories starting in 2012 about things that were going wrong at Marcel. Really? Okay.

Yeah, I'm glad you said that. I have received more criticism in the last year. I mean, I live in criticism, but specifically the platforming underlies this accusation of platforming. Like I want to engage a wide array of ideas. If I don't, they still exist. I like to do it publicly. You can change the channel if you don't allow. So I release a podcast on Monday and Thursday. I always get messages the following day on each one.

Hey, really liked your podcast. I really like your podcast, but I don't think you should have platformed that person. Then the next Thursday, it's something different. So it's like no matter who it is, there's going to be somebody that didn't like that person, but they liked everybody else. Well, guess what? The person you like, somebody else didn't like me. And it's like I just – I think there's something in the air in the last year, two years where it's like I think it's the polarization creating echo chambers and safety. And now there's such a narrow view of this.

If there's an idea I don't agree with, I don't want anybody else to kind of like mention, like just make it go away. And I just don't think that's healthy at all. Right. I'm not going to have David duke on the platform my podcast i'm just not interested in that conversation i'm not gonna have um uh oh god i don't know who's the opposite of him uh fred phelps or you know like i but i'm yeah i've got a broad range of different type of i might have a somebody on the podcast i talked to one day and then have somebody else and they may completely share opposite views.

And it's like those views exist. If I think they're interesting and thoughtful, I might completely disagree with them. But change the channel. I don't know. Yeah. Well, do we live in civil society or not, right? Because if we do, we ought to be able to talk to our neighbors and try to approach with curiosity. Like why do you think what you think?

Why do you believe the way you believe? How can I be – as a believer, like how can I be a better neighbor and love you better? And part of it is just trying to understand people's stories. So we listen and we ask and all of that. But yeah, no, I think the negative polarization is a good description for it. I think tribalism is another, you know, good description for it. You know, we just want to hear from people who confirm our biases. And that gets to an even deeper cultural issue, which is we just don't want to have to think, you know? We don't want to deal with people whose ideas make us uncomfortable

because we just don't want to have to think about them. Right, right. Here's a really good question from the Twitter thread, I think. How can we do a better job in America and our churches to build non-toxic leadership? I mean, that is kind of one of the goals, right? That this would serve as a resource to help us avoid another situation like this happening. Do you have ideas on that? I mean, you've been in a church and now living in Mars Hill from a distance for a while now. And, uh, right. Yeah. I would just

say like, what are, what are the metrics for success? Um, I think that that becomes a really, really critical issue. Gerardo Marty has been on the podcast a number of times and, and there's a, there's a clip that I think will show up later. So it's spoiler alert. But one of the things he talks about is he said, you know, the phenomenon of like the church growth movement is that the church's understanding of itself is about momentum. It's about expansion and it's about rapid expansion.

It's about expansion and it's about rapid expansion. And when that movement and when that expansion stalls or stops, what you end up discovering is that the structure itself is pretty brittle because you haven't built anything underneath. and momentum and growth become the metric by which everything else gets measured. That, you know, some unique ways. I think we ought to look at like, what does an approach to ministry that's generational look like? What would a traditioning process look like for, you know, for leaders? Denominations came to exist for a reason. And I'm not saying we all need to like, you know, abandon non-denominationalism, though there are plenty of people who'd make that argument and probably make it well. But in the absence of them, Mars Hill is a great example of this. I mean, there was research that I saw recently that basically showed that the that by and large, the only churches in the country that are growing are non-denominational megachurches. What's the

traditioning process? What's the mentoring process whereby leaders in those organizations are being prepared for the next thing? Is there a concern for character? Is there a structure for characterological development along with like like here's how you get numbers here's how you excite a crowd um i just don't think we have the metrics to measure and so we're measuring what we can which is you know butts and seats i just i mean going back to kind of that that certain personality too like you take and i i appreciate you wanting to send to this not just on mark but on Marcial as a whole. But, I mean, you take a personality like Mark.

And what I mean by the personality where doesn't receive criticism well creates a, quote, unquote, team that kind of bunch of yes men. And if you're not that, you're kind of pushed out. Or if there is conflict, you kind of take your ball and go home. And, you know, that, I just, here's what I'm thinking. I don't want to say it because it probably isn't going to come out wrong, but like, should that person be a pastor, you know, or if that person is called to ministry, how can that kind of personality genuinely build a team? And, you know, that episode where that with a woman said that was really disturbing i mean when she said his secretary whatever this i think episode

two or three where there was one thing she would suggest like maybe mark should have some older wiser people around him that would you know not be afraid to push back and she got called up on heresy charges like that that's disturbing but that that that might be a a more dramatic response but that kind of response on a subtle level i'm sure is very common with somebody who again a very black and white kind of leader and if you don't agree with me or you're a problem you know and and i just should that person even be a pastor should we screen that ahead of time or if they if that kind of personality is like, how can we build genuine team around him that he's not going to get away with that, you know, or I don't know. Yeah. No, it's a great question. I guess I would say

one of the things I think you see in Mark, like, first of all, I 100% agree with you. The example, that's Karen Schaefer's story. And what happened to Karen, I think, is one of those examples of like, something happening big at Mars Hill that happens in a small scale in lots of places. And we got a ton of emails from people saying, this happened to me, this exact thing happened to me. At Mars Hill or just other churches? Other churches, churches all over the country. Um, uh, all kinds of churches, different, you know, different traditions, denominations, the whole nine yards. Um, and so what, you know, one of the things I think that exists in, in all of this, like, like another, another metric,

I guess I would say for, for a leader that's qualified is do they have at any point in their history – can we point to an example where they were under someone else's authority and they submitted to that authority? And in submitting to that authority, they did things they didn't want to do, right? It's one thing to submit to an authority that you agree with. It's a totally different thing to submit to authorities you don't agree with. And, you know, the military trains you in that. A lot of ministry processes train you in that. A lot of educational processes train you in that. But it's not hard in ministry if you're sort of charismatic and successful to sort of, you know, find these paths to leadership where that's never tested.

And so then when you end up in a place like Mark did, where the accountability structures are pretty flat and there's not really people, you know, with any authority over him, even the suggestion of it put him in a place where he was pretty reactive. What was the most, if I can say, the say the most i mean that story was pretty disturbing do you have one that stands out that you're like oh my gosh i can't believe this happened um oh man um well the podcast ain't ain't over yet so there's more to come but no i you know again i don't even necessarily want to focus on that like i don't mean to to sound dismissive i know it's a bad it's kind of a gossipy question i don't yeah, I don't even necessarily want to focus on that. Like I don't mean to sound dismissive.

No, it's a bad – it's kind of a gossipy question. I don't – and I don't mean it that – that wasn't my intention. It's just – yeah, anyway, yeah. Here's my motivation is I think as I hear these stories, it could very easily become gossipy or failure porn or rip, you know. On a positive level, though, it could also be very healing, I think, for other people that say, oh, my gosh, that happened to me and I'm not alone, or you gave voice to something I went through, or I went through that, didn't

tell anybody. I'm so glad that these stories are being told as a source of almost healing for people who have been through kind of just spiritual abuse. I can imagine that story that story i mean being brought up on heresy charges because she said something that was 100 accurate in a really gracious way like that's just that that that that can destroy someone's faith if they go i mean i'm glad she it didn't for her but that i mean i think we do need to tell those stories you know um yeah i totally agree I think, I guess I would say the thing that, that I find like most disturbing in the story. Um, and again, not just about the Mars Hill guys, but, um, uh, but it's something you see reflected in a lot of churches and church leadership culture. Um, including when I came out of is is that things happen behind closed doors.

And people go, that's not right. But I'm going to just keep going because I know that what happens next Sunday is more important. And you make that calculus. Every time you make that calculus, it gets easier to do it the next time. Do you think even our church structure, like our ecclesiology very sunday very growth oriented very sunday centric very much kind of preaching focused and all these things are good things but that does those are those can very easily especially in american celebrity culture as a whole create it's almost like we're

paving the way for especially if somebody struggles with narcissism or something or whatever or power abuse, where it's almost like we're setting them up for failure. This is where some of the more liturgical churches or eastern churches just don't have they have other issues, I'm sure, but they don't have this

kind of problem. They're just not set up that way. I don't know. Well, I guess sure, but they don't have this kind of problem. They're just not set up that way. I don't know. Well, I guess I'd say like, you know, when it comes to the abuse piece, right, like that always comes back to power. And so you can look at the Catholic Church and it's like it almost doesn't matter who your priest is. They're going to rotate different priests out all the time. You're there for the sacrament and that's why you keep showing up. But power has a way of expressing itself and it has a way of doing a whole lot of damage in a structure like that. The thing about sort of the evangelical world is because people aren't showing

up for the sacrament and because I think we have often demeaned not just the sacrament, but like the worship, even the experience of community. And what we've done is we've elevated the pulpit to this place where it's like the sermon is the thing. You know, again, I think that sets people up to go, well, the guy with the Bible, that's the most important thing. That's the reason that I'm here. You know, I once heard Jamie Smith talking about this, and he said, you know, evangelicals wonder why they have a celebrity pastor problem. And then you go to almost any evangelical church, and it's 20 minutes of music to get you hyped up for a lecture, for a 45-minute lecture from the smartest guy in the room. That's the model for a lot of churches. And so there's something formative about that, that sort of week in, week out, year in, year out. That's what we experience when we gather at the church. So yeah, I mean, I'd love to see an embrace of more liturgical practice. I'd love to see the church saying, we're not just here for the sermon.

We're here to hear the scriptures read, to pray together, to have a broad practice that's really about us as a community sharing an experience together more than putting one guy up there and let him talk for an hour. I don't think it's sustainable in a post internet, post 9-11, post Trump-ish. The world we live in now, I just think that... And we've seen it through COVID, right? I mean, a lot of people aren't coming back to church because they're like, I didn't... My life kind of went on and

this whole church experience, this church routine that I didn't have for a year, I don't know if I need that back. I can get a sermon elsewhere. I can listen to Christian music. I think this sense of belonging, which I think deep down is really the deepest need for people. I think they know it. They feel it. I think COVID, they feel it even more. And I feel like if churches can't cultivate that as kind of the centerpiece, almost like the table is a centerpiece of what the rhythm of what we do, everything else is kind of fostering that, that sense of belonging. I think churches, whether the bigger or small, obviously bigger churches

will probably have more hurdles or hop over. But if we don't cultivate that, I just, I think more than ever, we need that, you know? But yeah. Yeah. And I just think charismatic leaders, whether they're worship leaders or, cause I mean, that's a whole nother dynamic that you could get into of kind of the celebrity culture around worship leaders. But I think we have a way of sort of attaching to them so that we get vicarious religious experience through them. And it satisfies something in us that, yeah, it's a deep need. There's a wound there, I think, that modernity has done to us. And I love air conditioning.

I love antibiotics. Like thank God for modernity in that sense. But it's not the answer to everything. And it's left some big open questions for us. And I think they're reflected in some of the ways that the church is trying to sort of twist itself into knots to compensate for it. Well, Mike, thanks so much for your work on the podcast. It really is. I mean, it's so well done.

How many hours a week do you is this like a full-time thing i mean uh i bet yeah i don't want to talk about the hours that was one of the questions but we'll we'll uh we'll let you know thanks so much for yeah your honesty and humility um and uh i'm looking forward to the next few episodes man thanks i guess i'm not supposed to say that i'm looking forward to the next few episodes man thanks well actually i guess i'm not supposed to say that i'm not looking for it right uh i'm i'm deeply curious and intrigued about the next few episodes yeah yeah yeah can you give us can you give us an overview where are you going for the rest of the time or is that would you rather not um i guess i'll just

say like a lot of what we a lot of what we've done here in the middle has been about exploring different thematic issues in the church that kind of span the history. And then we'll sort of pick up the chronology in the last few years in these last few episodes. Okay, cool.

That's where we're going from here. Awesome. All right, man. Thanks for coming on the podcast. Appreciate it. Absolutely. you