Theology in the Raw - S9 Ep906: Getting to Know My New Transwoman Friend: Seda Collier

Episode Date: September 30, 2021

Seda Collier is a transwoman with an interesting story. She had a radical encounter with God while tripping on acid in 1980. Has had several other “God moments” throughout her life. Started transitioning to a woman in 2006. Has a wife, kids, and attends a Baptist church in Eugene, OR. We had a lot to talk about! I “met” Seda through email just a couple of weeks ago. She read my book Embodied expecting it to be like all the other evangelical books out there, and she was pleasantly taken back at how much she was challenged by it. Anyway, she sent a very kind email to me to let me know, so I said “why don’t we get to know each other more by doing a podcast?” Seda liked the idea, so here we are. This podcast is us getting to know each other in real time.

Hello, friends. I want to invite you to come join us for our first ever Theology in the Raw Exiles in Babylon conference, March 31st to April 2nd. At this conference, we're going to be challenged to think like exiles about race, sexuality, gender, critical race theory, hell, transgender identities, climate change, creation, care, American politics, and what it means to love, love, love your Democratic and Republican neighbor as yourself. Different views will be presented. Everyone will be challenged to think critically, compassionately, and Republican neighbor as yourself. Different views will be presented. Everyone will be challenged to think critically, compassionately, and Christianly through all kinds of different topics.

We've got loads of awesome speakers that are going to be there. Thabiti Anyubwale, Chris Date, Derwin Gray, Ellie Bonilla, Jackie Hill Perry, Evan Wickham, John Tyson, Tony Scarcello, Sandy Richter, Kimika Titi, Heather Skriba, and many others will be joining us for the first ever Theology in the Raw conference. All the information is in the show notes, or you can just go to PressAndSprinkle.com

to register. And I would recommend registering sooner than later. Space is limited. You can come and join us in person in Boise, or you can stream it online. Again, PressAndSprinkle.com for all the info. Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. My guest on the show today is Seda Collier. And I know basically nothing about Seda other than she is a trans woman who read my book, Embodied, and sent me a really awesome, kind email. And we had a couple of email exchanges. And I said, Hey, would you like to have a conversation? Seda said, Sure. I said, Would you like me to record that conversation and throw it on my podcast? And she said, Seda said, sure. I said, would you like me to record that conversation and throw it on my podcast?

And she said, sure, why not? So I am going to call Seda right now. I know nothing, little to nothing about Seda other than just a couple of email exchanges. And so this is going to be super raw in the sense that I have no clue how this conversation is going to go. But hey, we're just human beings getting to know each other. So please welcome to the show Seda Collier. I'm going to go but hey we're just human beings getting to know each other so please welcome to the show Seda Collier I'm going to call her right now and you could uh just listen in on our conversation I guess here we go hello hello how are you I'm doing really well let's see I yeah I had there you are yeah I had the wrong you you must have had an older skype account because i i it was a picture of you and i kept messaging and it wasn't the right one and then i went to the email and plugged in your email address and it worked out so yeah yeah i probably did it's early out there thanks for waking up to uh be on the podcast and hang out and have a conversation. My pleasure.

Yeah. Am I, Seda, is that how, am I pronouncing it right? Yep. Okay. That's right.

Okay, cool. Well, thank you so much for your kind email. I mean, I, I do get a lot and I, as you probably noticed,

I don't have my email, my personal email anywhere on the website or anywhere really. And so some emails never get to me. I just can't, you know, but then this one, one of my assistants forwarded to me and he's like, I think you might want to read this one. I'm like, oh my word. I was just so encouraged by it. And like, I don't know, it just seems so authentic and humble and wise. And I was like, man, I really want to get to know you so yeah wow can you say that again um can you i don't yeah just to start i mean you probably know more about me than i do do about you so as much as you would love to share i would

just love to hear your story and um i'm sure that's a could be a hour long conversation but uh yeah yeah so um just let me check in real quick is the sound okay from my sound looks great yeah the only thing if you want to um lower you're you're lower on the screen than i am so mate let's either i can go I can't really go lower because of my chair. There you go. That's perfect right there. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. Yeah, sounds great though. Good. Yeah. So, yeah, I'm a trans woman. I transitioned in 2007 basically. Okay. in uh 2007 basically okay um and um i don't know if you want to go back to the beginning from you know what child why don't we start well why don't we start there i'm sure i'll have questions about

kind of your upbringing and and all that but yeah let's start with 2007 to now and then we'll go okay yeah so so in 2006 really um i kind of hit a wall. Um, I'd been, uh, struggling with some really serious gender dysphoria since 2003. Um, and got therapy. I had two years of therapy for it. Um, took care of all the background stuff, childhood issues, substance abuse issues, and stuff like that. And finally, it was like, okay, I'm not getting any more out of therapy, so I stopped getting therapy. And I was married, had two kids. My son, my first son was

born in 2002, in 2003, early 2003. So young kids. And, and really, I guess, I guess, And really, I guess I kind of have to go to that moment in 2003 where I just woman. Um, and I'd been trying to be a man for all this time, you know, uh, joined the Marine Corps and commercial fishing and all this stuff and really doing my best to do that. Then got married, then, you know, um, had kids and all of a sudden it's like, comes down, it's like, Oh my God, you that, then got married, then, you know, had kids. And all of a sudden, it's like, comes out, it's like, oh, my God, you know, and it was this moment of, of really, almost euphoria for about two seconds, followed by this. oh, my God, I have a wife. I have kids. These people depend on me.

And how am I going to deal with this? You know, and that's where the whole thing, where I started going into the therapy, getting therapy. So, you know, three years of that, um, started a new business. Real quick. Were you talking with your wife about what was going on or was all this very much just kind of kept inside or? Um, it was, so in, in 2003, when, when that happened, I had to talk to her about it. Before then, I told her some of these things. I tried to share with her that I was really messed up, but I wasn't clear on why. I was in denial, basically.

And so, you know, she didn't know how to deal with it. I didn't know how to deal with it. It was kind of, you know, we just kind of pushed it into the background and went on. And then in 2006, I'm working on my new business and going along. And gradually, the dysphoria, the floating, the depression, all of this stuff was getting worse and worse. I was getting more and more suicidal, reaching a point where my day was basically occupied. You know, my internal world was really planning suicide I was literally you know like okay you know how I don't want my kids to have a legacy of their dad committed suicide so how am I gonna set this up so that it's like it's a for sure I'm dead and nobody thinks it's anything except an accident.

And okay, this is – my family – I was the only money earner at that point. Kristen was working harder than me. But she was taking care of the kids in the household. We all know at that point. Kristen was working harder than me, but, um, but she was taking care of the kids. We all know how that goes. Does your wife work? Yeah. Yes. She raises the kids. She's not actually earning money from outside, but yeah, she's looking harder than I am. Um, and, um, so it was like, okay, how am I going to make sure that, that I have sufficient health or life insurance that's going to, you know, make it so that, that she can, um, you know, get by until, until she can find a man. Um, and, and I just reached in August that year, I just reached the end of, of my rope. And I told Chris and something has to change. I could not go on. Um, I had maybe,

maybe two to six more months that I could have pulled it off. I don't think I could have lived another six months. I think I would have been dead. Can you, for people, I guess, like me, who don't have a category, is there anything more concrete you could even give us to help us understand what was so driving you to just constantly think about suicide? Was it like an internal angst? Was there societal, I don't know, shame or pressure, you know, or all the above, or is it even hard to describe? I don't know. It's extremely hard to describe. Um, and,

and I've never really seen anything that, that describes it adequately. Um, because it's, it's like this, this gender dissonance, this, this, um, internal conflict. Um, there was, uh, I was at, uh, um, guys yeah um they did a piece on torture one time and um and then they were describing um like this chinese water torture thing and um i saw an interview i can i can share the link to you sometime a youtube interview um where one of the guys from that was saying that after they'd done this piece, they got an anonymous email from somebody who said that what they'd found was that if you had a steady drop, it almost became like a meditation and the person could ignore it. But if they randomized the drops, within 24 hours they had a psychic break. Wow.

So it's like that. It's like I've heard gender dysphoria described as existential torture. And I think that's a really good description of it. Actually, I like – do you know who Julius Rano is? Have you heard of Julius Rano? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whipping girl. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Have you read that? No, it's on the list. I heard it's an interesting read. Yeah, actually, I recommend it. But it's like, this is a really good description that could, I mean, I could have written this. My gender dissonance only got worse with each passing day. And by the time I made the decision to transition, my gender dissonance had gotten so bad that it completely consumed me. It hurt worse than any pain, physical or emotional, that I had ever experienced. What changed during that 20-some year period was not my desire to be female, but rather my ability to cope with my own gender dissonance.

When I made the decision to transition i honestly had no idea what it would be like for me to live as female the only thing i knew for sure was that pretending to be male was slowly killing me um you know and and yeah i i i can relate that's that's like i could have written that. Um, so, so this is what I'm going through at this point. And that's when Kristen was like, okay, you know, let's get going on this. Let's go ahead and take the stab. So, um, I, I got a new therapist, uh, Reed Vanderberg, um, in Portland. So I had to, I live in Eugene. So it was a 90-mile trip up to Portland to see him.

But he specialized in gender dysphoria and transgender issues. And so within a few meetings with him, he was like, yeah, here's your letter to get hormones. I started hormone therapy in 2007. And then in August of 2007 is when I changed my name, changed my ID and started living 24-7 as a woman. I've been living as a woman ever since. Can you – yeah, I'm super curious now. I mean, both the suicidality and gender dissonance, as you put it.

How has that been since you transitioned? It got better. Okay. Like as soon as I committed to transitioning, things started getting better, turning around. And, and one of the things that really, um, I think that really made a difference for me there, there's, I mean, there's, there's so many things, there's so many different ways to, to talk about this. But one of the things that really made a difference was for me was that all of a sudden I was living in integrity. You know, I'd spent all this time living in this kind of like, like not telling the truth about who I was

trying to build up. So like, you know, demonstrate to the world and really validate to myself that i'm a man you know i mean i i grew up in in 1960s in rural wyoming right on a cattle ranch um really and yeah yeah and so the you know the the model of of manhood that I saw was very, um, the word macho comes to mind, but I don't, I don't really like that. I don't think that's a good one, but it was a very, very definite, um, model of, of a certain kind of, you know, uh, masculinity where, where a man is, is like, you know, has the responsibilities and tough and, and, you know, all this kind of stuff. Um, and so that, that's kind of the model I was working off of. Um, and, and I knew from earliest, my earliest, you know, days that there was something wrong with me.

I didn't really know what it was. I mean, I could see that I was male. I had a penis and all this kind of stuff. And that was reflected back by everyone around me, including in the ways that I was ridiculed for doing things like throwing like a girl or running like a girl, these kinds of things. So you did naturally act and resonate more with what we would call femininity, more feminine, culturally defined feminine things and interests from an early age? Apparently so. I mean, things and interests from an early age or apparently so i mean i i think i would have been had i been female i think i would have been a tomboy okay um i i very much was was

into doing things like you know fishing and and stuff like that and climbing trees you know so I was I was really into that kind of stuff I also enjoy you know playing with my sister um with with her dolls sometimes um barbies and and when she got into into sewing for 4-h i was really jealous that that she could do that and i couldn't you know but on the other hand i really enjoyed doing woodworking okay yeah so so yeah you know and and when it came time for branding you know I didn't want to be back there helping with the cooking. I wanted to be there, you know, wrestling the calves. And I wasn't the only girl who wanted to do that, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Those Wyoming women, man. I live in Idaho. So, yeah, a lot of, yeah. Yeah. So,, the, the, a lot of, yeah. Yeah. So, um, where was I? Yeah. We're kind of, um, so I, I, the, I did the dysphoria and suicide ideation. You said that lesson, did it not completely go away and were there, did it, were there waves or were there certain things that kind of triggered it or

long-term did it come back or? Yeah. So what happened was, was as I transitioned, taking the hormones and electrolysis to get rid of my beard and stuff. And and it felt a lot more congruent. OK. You know, and a lot more honest. So I was relating with people and, and, um, you know, it's not always easy because people weren't always reflecting that back to me. I mean, I looked pretty awful and it had some, you know, um, experiences that were not that pleasant. But it was better.

And what kind of got worse than over the next, let's see, so 2007, 2012, so over the next five years was the physical part. Okay. was um was the physical part um okay you know so there were there were things like like because of the hormones i was growing breasts and and that started oh wow that feels normal yeah yeah but but i still had had my genitals and i could feel that and in april of 2012 um I started having these anxiety attacks that were associated with the physical sensation. And it was really intense. I had to take Xanax to control it. And like for the, you know, from April 2012 until July 23rd, 2013, when I had surgery, I, I took Xanax everywhere I went. Um, you know, I, I had, I had my little bottle of Xanax because once these attacks started coming, I could not control them. I would, I mean, I would literally, you know, end up curled up in a corner in a fetal position. Just, you know, I don't even know how to describe it.

And that was more specifically rated to like body specific dysphoria for lack of better terms. Is that? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And then July 23rd, 2013, I had surgery. And like the day after, 2013, I had surgery. And like the day after, you know, it's really uncomfortable. You know, I'm all hyped up on morphine. I guess it's not hyped up. It's more like I'm all like dragging.

And I'm like, I don't need the Xanax anymore. And I threw it out and I knew I would never need it again. And I've never needed it again. Wow. No, why, wait, why is that? Because you were on morphine now or? No, no, I was on morphine for, you know, a day or two. And then, you know, I had some, some pain pills and stuff for a while until I, I recovered. And it's a long or two. And then I had some pain pills and stuff for a while

until I recovered. It's a long recovery period. I mean, that's a major surgery. Oh, so it's after the surgery, the anxiety went away. Yeah, exactly. Like the day after. It was like a hard break. It's like it was like a hard break.

And and. I mean, for for at least five years after that, after surgery, I was like consciously. Just grateful for that surgery. Yeah. You know, and I'm still still grateful but but now it's become more normal you know it's like almost like oh i could take the take it for granted kind of thing yeah but um but yeah it's it's like you know um i think i think one of the things that um that that christians a lot of times don't understand is is that yes gender dysphoria is a killer you know yeah um it's not a direct killer but but if you're trying to deal with this thing that you can't do in tents, it's not sustainable. I've got a few friends.

Not that it's necessarily that way. What's that? Not that it's necessarily that way. What's that? Not that it's necessarily that way, right? I mean, it exists on a spectrum, on a wide spectrum. Exactly, yeah. From really mild to really severe. It's like autism spectrum disorder. You have some that's really mild and you have some that's really severe

where you're not even verbal. For me, it was bad. I mean, certain things can trigger it too, right? If it is coming in the way... I mean, I'm thinking of two people in particular, my friends, who it's just... It's a pretty steady high kind of... It's kind of always there.

Other people who it is more waves and there are certain life events or even comments or certain things that might trigger it. One of my friends, biological female, goes by they, them. They were having a bunch of women over for a women's Bible study into their house. They said the anxiety was just through the roof. They just imagined all these women in pink dresses coming in with their teacups.

And it wasn't that, you know. But just the thought of being in an environment, a closed environment, which is oozing with femininity was just like, I mean, yeah, dysphoria just skyrocketed, you know. And yeah, it's just such a it's is from what i've i mean read and heard it's just it's so mysterious almost like i mean the pop scholars it's like we're at the beginning stages almost still trying to understand it and like all the therapy in the world for some people doesn't seem to do anything. And I'm curious about that. On the therapeutic side, was there anything there that was helpful, things that were related to the dysphoria? Or was it just this kind of separate category that's just like, this is not caused by anything specific. It's just there.

I don't know why it's there. I don't know where it came from. Or just therapy, did therapy help in any way? I don't know why it's there. I don't know where it came from. Or just therapy, did therapy help in any way? So I'd had several different therapists and reasons for therapy. So that first initial two-year period of therapy, I actually had two therapists. The first one was like I got into some of the darker stuff that I was dealing with.

And she was like, I can't deal with this. I'm going to refer you to somebody else. So I went to the other one and that was really helpful. I worked through a lot of stuff and I think it's actually really important. And I'm really grateful for that therapy because I dealt with all kinds of stuff from my childhood and, and, you know, substance abuse and, and, and, um, really dark fantasies and all kinds of stuff and work through all that and, and pretty much resolved it. Right. But it didn't do anything to the gender dysphoria. Got it. Okay. Right? So then when I had, when I started having these anxiety attacks, I got another therapist who did work with transgender issues to try to help me deal with the anxiety attacks. It was a complete waste of time.

Okay. help me deal with the anxiety attacks. It was a complete waste of time. Um, there was, it wasn't about anything psychological so much. I mean, it was obviously there, the anxiety psychological, but it wasn't triggered by any kind of psychological or trauma event. It was triggered by my actual body. Right. So there was, there was nothing I could do. It was physical. It wasn't mental. And then before and after surgery, I got therapy during that period of time to help me manage that transition because that's a huge, um,

yeah, transition. And it was, it was just kind of like kind of a support. Um, it was helpful, but it didn't really, you know,

change anything. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm curious about your wife then and your family. I mean, gosh, that, that was 15 minutes ago and I'm like,

okay, so lots happened since we left off in what 2006 or whatever so give us a overview of what's your how was your family impacted by this and how did they receive it well it's for for chris and it was it was like it was a big shock. It was really hard. Um, she, um, it was because it wasn't just me transitioning. It was also her, right. Um, she was, was forced to, um, to look at her own identity at what, what it means for her to be a woman, you know, and to really call this into question. And I was really fortunate that about the time that this all started happening, she started learning nonviolent communication. And so we used a lot of that. And we would have like, you know, just for a while, like in 2006, 2007, probably, it was like this kind of daily thing, you know, get up and, you know, how are you doing today?

Well, I'm okay. How are you? Yeah. Do you think we'll be, you know, should we get divorced? It's like, no, not yet. I don't know, you know. And dealing with this, and it wasn't like just all easy. It was really hard.

There were a lot of times of like just, you know, crying on each other's shoulders and stuff like that. But we stayed connected through it, you know, crying on each other's shoulders and stuff like that. Um, but we stayed connected through it, you know, it's like we were both committed to, um, to our kids, um, to, to doing the best we could for them. Um, we were both committed to each other in the sense that, you know, we, we loved each other and, and, um, you know, even though we didn't know what would happen next and whether we would end up together or whether we would split apart. In the moment, life was better together, and so we stayed with it. And over time, really, I think, did a lot of healing.

Kristen, you know, 2009, 2008, 2009, we moved in different bedrooms. Okay. Stopped sleeping together. Determined, basically, we're both heterosexuals um and and we've been together you know so so chris and i've been together through all that all that time you're still together together we're still together. And we are on the very cusp of being empty nesters, right? So our youngest is in the process of moving out. He has a house. Yeah. How did your kids handle it all? Well, when it started, Sam was about three years old Well, when it started, Sam was about three years old and Trin was about six.

So when we sat him down after Christmas 2006 to explain this, we waited until after Christmas so we could have the holidays with family without having this upheaval. And started explaining this to them. sam it was like oh okay you know whatever and trin was like you know he's like okay he was really into science so he explained it's kind of like um like clownfish you know clownfish that um will will naturally change sex sometimes um so he's like okay you got that and then he kind of got this sad look on his face and and he's like um does this mean you won't wrestle with me anymore it's like no we'll still do that else it'll still wrestle with. And he's like, oh, okay. And it's been fine. Actually, Trin is my oldest, is visiting with us. He just ended one job in California.

He's moving on to his next thing. But, I mean, I'd like to invite you to ask him how it was. And he'd be willing to talk with you, I think. But the next year after I transitioned, probably must have been the summer of 2008, I overheard him talking with his – he was playing with a neighbor from across the street um and we had a whole kid pack in our neighborhood it was a great neighborhood for raising kids and uh so he's talking with his neighbor across the street and his and uh his his friend said um don't you miss having a dad and it was like he responded right No, I like her much better as a woman. Wow.

That's a direct quote. Wow. You know, I was like, huh, good. Now, I read online. First of all, thank you for being so just honest and open with your story. I mean, gosh, we're, you know, a lot of these things are personal details that you're sharing freely. And I think it's helpful for us to hear stories, but we don't, I don't have a right to your story, you know?

So thank you for inviting me into it. Um, and I, I just, I'm just so sorry you had to battle that level of dysphoria and suicidality. It's just, I just, um, I just can't imagine what that was like. So. Yeah. And, and, you know, I think, I do think it's important to note also that, um, like you mentioned in your book, a number of times quoting from, from Mark Yarhouse, if you know one transgender person, you know, one transgender person. Um, so this, this is my story, right? All I'm relating is, is my own. And when we get into opinions and

stuff, which I'm sure we will, um, you know, there's a, a, a YouTube video out called the danger of a single story. Um, it was by a Nigerian woman. I forget her name. Um, but I, I highly recommend that. And, you know, one of the things that I think is really important in this conversation is to remember that what I'm saying is, is my story. You know, what I'm saying applies to me. It doesn't necessarily apply to other transgender people. That's super helpful. Yeah. And I feel like in this day and age,

people do use individual stories or even more anecdotal kind of things to make a more broader point. And that's just so problematic, especially in this conversation. I mean, it's taken me a while to learn just that point. Like every single story, there's overlap in some stories, obviously, but everybody has so many unique features and it's

hard to, um, yeah, take one story and, and weaponize it or capitalize on it, you know? Um, gosh, I mean, I have so many questions. I, Oh, we haven't even talked about faith. I mean, you're, you're a Christian, right? I mean, raising a church or are you in the church or are you still in the church what's your faith journey look like well i was i was raised in christian science church um and we lived we lived out in the uh out in the country you know 20 miles from town so that you know at least 25 miles from church um was not a regular churchgoer i didn't really really, um, I mean, I kind of took that in as sort of, I adopted it as, as, um, as, as a belief system, but I didn't really internalize it at all. It, it, it was not

like I didn't really have any understanding or commitment to it. So in in, you know, when I was 19, I joined the Marine Corps. I was really. Consciously, my intent was that I would, you know, this is how you become a man. This is like I can become a man through this. I was always looking for those things from outside that would make me feel that inside, you know, try to validate this. And so I joined the Marine Corps to become a man. And ended up – made a really good friend at this specialized school on a Navy base in Florida.

And my friend was really into drugs. He was PCP, Quaaludes, Downers and Barbiturates. I mean, he was like pretty radical into them. He got me into them. And so I got kicked out of that school because it was, you know, I should have gotten a top secret clearance. And when they found out, you know, I got in for doing drugs um and went to camp lejeune and in camp lejeune i was i had no friends i knew nobody i was like so um isolated it was it was a it was a really hard time and um when i was going through jacksonville and ran across these these folks from grace baptist church in in jacksonville okay and um ended up having a conversation ended up

september 1980 um uh going down the romans to, to salvation, accepting Jesus as my personal savior. And I didn't really take it in. Right. I mean, it was like, okay, this is, this is a thing, but it wasn't like, it didn't make any super big difference in my life. It was like, okay, I believe this. I'm convinced I'm going in this direction, but it didn't actually change anything. If that makes sense. Um, and then my friend got, um, kicked out of that same school down in Florida and came up to a different part of Camp Lejeune.

part of camp lejeune so i met with him and um and one day he gave me um a couple of hits of acid and um part of a gram of cocaine and so um on this one day i was by myself and I took the acid and when I started tripping, I snorted all the cocaine. And all of a sudden I heard this voice in my head as I'm starting, you know, starting to hallucinate and, and, and, uh, see this, you know, kind of the, the vision. Um, I don't know. Have you ever done LSD? No, no. Smoke some weed. So you don't really have an idea of how, how the, your,

your vision kind of start floating and things start, start really shifting. And, and you know, it's, it's pretty, pretty weird. And, and I suddenly had this voice in my head that said, this is better than God. And I immediately was like, what? No. This is wrong. And I rejected it just with everything I had. And my, I'm not going to say friends,

the people I'd been talking with at Grace Baptist had given me a copy of the NIV Bible. It was my first NIV Bible. And I just went and I grabbed that and opened it at random, opened it to the story of Jacob's Ladder and Jacob wrestling with D.H.O. And so I'm trying to read this, and the words are literally floating on the page, so it's really hard to read them. But I'm just like, you know, in such a moment of rejection of that voice and calling out to God. And had this really, really reaching with my whole heart for God.

And all of a sudden, in just one moment to the next, I could see clearly. I was completely sober. And I just had this sense of this amazing love and peace. It was like I encountered Jesus in an amazing, powerful, and profound way that was completely undeniable. So you met God. What you're trying to tell me is you met God on an acid trip where you also took cocaine. And that's where he met you. Listeners of Theology in Iran, we are not prescribing this as a way to encounter God.

I do not prescribe this. But this is really important, Preston, because it was in my rejection of that that I found God. That is wild. It wasn't in doing it. It was in rejecting it. Wow. That is a really important point. So many layers there. So that's so wait what year is

that that you said that this is back in the early 80s that was 1980 1980 oh gosh okay 40 years ago 40 yeah yeah wow it was a matter of me crying out um and and you know, and being saved. Yeah. It was like, it was like that moment where, where, um, where David realizes, you know, Nathan comes in and confronts David about what he did with Bathsheba and Uriah. And he's like, oh my God, you know, it was, it was that moment of profound repentance. Wow. Wow.

So since then, is that? Instant, instant healing of that trip. It was like one moment I was tripping, the next moment I was completely sober. That's wild. I don't think I've heard a story quite like that before. That's wild. Yeah. so your faith journey since then? So that really established for sure an undeniable belief and faith in God. From that moment on, I've never been able to deny the reality of a very present, real God.

But over time, I kept running into these contradictions and and an inability to to resolve the things that were going on with me through my faith. So I went back and forth in a number of different ways. I went back to Christian science for a while, then rejected it, tried different churches. By the time I transitioned, I was basically unreligious. About probably 2008, I'd reached the point where I was like, you know, I rejected religion. I didn't reject God because I knew that God was real., religion wasn't practical to me. It wasn't, it wasn't doing anything. Um, and I think a lot of it was just in, in the fact that a big part of Christianity is, is integrity, right? It's, it's, it's telling the truth, not only telling the truth to others,

but telling the truth to yourself. And I was lying. I was lying to myself. I was lying to others. I was telling everybody, you know, I'm a man, you know, I'm presenting this way. I'm like, you know, really pushing this narrative about who I am that isn't true. And, and I think because of that, um, I wasn't able to really, um, stay faithful. Um, so when 2006 came around, when, when I, when I started transition, we had some really dear Christian friends. And it was like we had this group of – like a play group with my kids. like a play group with my kids. And one of our, well, how does this work with my faith journey? I think we'll leave that because that isn't important for that aspect.

But around 2009, I started having a sense. By that time, I'd reaching out and reading the Bible. I was working downtown Eugene about a block away from the Christian Science Reading Room. And I started going to the Christian Science Reading Room every day and having these conversations at lunchtime, having these conversations with the librarian there, a really nice guy named Richard. And, you know, had some really deep conversations about God and transgenderism and stuff, and started going back and started going to the Christian science church again. And, um, then in 2012, I started getting these anxiety attacks and, and at the time I was really, um, And at the time, I was really, really unsure. I didn't know what, you know, what was right from a spiritual perspective. So in September, I'm trying to deal with all the Xanax and controlling these anxiety attacks.

And in September of 2012, I decided, okay, I need to get Bible and and I would pray and and you know basically go on a fast not a not an eating fast but but spend all of my free time the only thing I would do in my free time would be to pray and study the Bible, and that's it, until I had an answer from God. And at the same time, trying to help Kristen with the household and the kids and work. I think we were still a single earner family at that point. I forget exactly when Kristen started working outside the house again. And so I did that for three months, September, October, November. And about halfway through December, I was sitting right here in this very chair and praying so hard. And I just, you know, it was like a point where I was like, total surrender. It was like, I don't know what to do. You know, I don't know whether it's the right thing to get surgery or not, whether it's the right thing to live as a woman or whether I should transition back and live as a man.

Just tell me what to do, God. Tell me what's right. Whatever it is, I'll do it. I'll try. Even if it's like going back. And it was probably the most intense prayer I'd ever had. Certainly the most intense since that trip back in 1980 um and um and and i hear this voice and it said you are my beloved daughter in whom i'm well pleased small deep daughter and and once again i just feel the sense of love and peace And once again, I just feel this sense of love and peace. And that wasn't an answer, right? That didn't answer my question of what should I do. But within a couple weeks, I was like, that's all I'm going to get. I need to figure out what I'm going to do. I need to figure out what I'm going to do.

And what I find really interesting about that is that the consequence of that moment completely broke my faith in Christian science. Okay. Within, I don't know, not very long after that, I was like, no, it's not, not for me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And, and it really, I think set me on a path to, I think, what you would call Orthodox Christianity. Okay. Probably the, you know, like in, I think of the way it's described in Mere Christianity, the C.S. Lewis book. Okay. Are you part of a church or denomination now?

I attend First Baptist Church here in Eugene. Okay. Yeah. And I really like it. I don't identify as Baptist. Okay. I identify as Christian. wary about, um, about sex, about, you know, um, different, um, doctrines. Yeah. Maybe that's not the right word. Yeah. Um, more, more, um, just is, is it following Jesus? i'm okay yeah but but you know have you read francis chan's book until unity

i um i have not read it yet i'm ashamed to say that because we we go we go pretty far back francis and i have not read his latest book. So don't – you got me red-handed. My audience is going to crack up. I recommend it. It's really good. But he talks about it there in like what is important. And your podcast with Brian Zahn not too long ago, you know, it talks about what's the foundation of our faith. The foundation of our faith is Jesus, right? It's not really the Bible. I mean, the Bible

talks about Jesus. It describes Jesus, but it's not the foundation. The foundation is Jesus. And, and so, so my religion is, is my relationship with Jesus. Following Jesus, yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I am curious. Oh, sorry, go ahead. I don't really care whether you call that Baptist or non-denominational or Presbyterian or whatever. It doesn't matter.

How are you received at church? I mean, that's First Baptist Church and you show up and I mean, is that... I really can't. I would love to call their pastors right now and say, hey, tell me about Seda. Absolutely. Absolutely. Talk to Ben Cross.

Yeah, he's a really, really good pastor. I really like Pastor Ben. Hey, friends. Hope you're enjoying the conversation so far. And if you are enjoying this conversation and others like it, would you consider supporting the Theology in the Raw ministry by going to patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw. You can support the show for as little as five bucks a month

and get access to lots of different kinds of premium content like monthly Patreon-only podcasts and blogs and Q&A sessions. Again, you can go to patreon.com forward slash TheologyNaral or all the info is in the show notes. I really like Pastor Ben. Yeah, well, in your email, you wanted me to talk about how Christians have affected me.

So I'll give you that story, which is actually at this point, the faith story intertwines. Okay. So when we first transitioned, Kristen took the job of coming out to a lot of our friends and neighbors. She took it on herself in order to put a buffer between me and a direct response. Very sweet of her to do that. And so we had these really dear Christian friends. Um, their kids were the same age as our kids. And, and, you know, so there's, there's like this multi-layer friendship, our family, their family. And, and so she came out to, to these folks and, um, and they were like, bad, we can't handle this. We, you know, this is wrong. And,

and we can no longer interact with you. We don't want to talk with you. Um, our kids can't interact with your kids anymore. So not only did, um, did I lose them as a friend, and it was really, really painful. I grieved the loss of that relationship for years. But also, my kids lost friends. And I felt that was really, really unfair. And I felt that was really, really unfair. And blame them. I was very angry for a long time.

But also it made us really cautious. And I think Kristen kind of held it in for a while after that, where she could have really benefited from more support from our network of friends. But we had to this friend. We can't keep hiding this. So we're going to have to. And was really, really scared that we were going to lose another dear friend. And so she went for a walk with tam one one day and and um as she's talking about this tam's like but kristen god still loves her but kristen she's still a child of god

and and coming back with this stuff you know and at the end of it um i i met with, with Tam and, you know, gave her a hug. Um, so it turns out 10 years later, it's about 2018 or so. Um, Tam invites me to a women's Bible study at first Baptist. And I've been going to first Baptist ever since. To a women's Bible study. What year is that? Uh,

I think it was 2018 so I might have been 27 I would love this is fascinating because I mean I get most of my emails

are from like pastors and you know they're like hey what do I do I have a trans woman that showed up or a trans man

and I just you know I got an email from a church in Texas saying we just found out one of our main Bible study leaders used to be a woman or whatever it was. And we didn't even know. What do we do now? So I get it from that direction. And I guess it should be encouraging.

They're wrestling with what they believe and how to include people in a set of beliefs and being consistent with that. But man, agree or disagree with where they land, I think the heart motivation behind about 90% of the emails I get from pastors, they're golden. They're like, we want to be Jesus to everybody that walks through our doors. What does that look like? We can talk through it and I don't know if I have all the magic answers. So it's fascinating to talk to somebody on the other side now,

the one who they're like, oh my gosh, this is awesome. But it's, what do we do? Um, is there, I mean, so I just have a bunch of questions. Is there, um, are there certain level, this is the question I get from pastors. Like how, how deep can they, can they get in the church system? Can they serve? Can they become a leader, an elder or whatever?

Like, have you wrestled with that with your ministry team? Like you could attend a women's Bible study. I mean, could you lead one or is that even something you aspire to do? Or have you even had that conversation? Can you become a member of the church? I mean,

um, I, these are raw questions that I hope they're not like offensive. These are just real questions. No, no, no. Not offensive at all. And actually the membership question is really interesting because when I first started going, they had a new paper out that was like, I think it's what would be considered non-affirming. Um, basically saying that, that we affirm that, you know, that, um, male and female is as, uh, distinct genders and

the transition is not right. Um, and, but, but they listened, you know, um, which is cool. You know, which is cool. And so, you know, and I met with with several of the pastors and had really, really good conversations. They never, you know, that was like, right from day one, I could go attend the women's, um, Bible study. I didn't come out all at once. It was more of a really slow, you know, okay, we're having this conversation and now it, it kind of comes out. Obviously my friend knew, right. And she was there with me. Um, and, and then, and then the leader knew as well. Um, so, so it's, it's like, I've found a place to fit. Right. Um, and the other women in the Bible study, they didn't have a, they didn't have an issue or I guess you said that they didn't seem to, I mean, you know, they, they took it in and maybe it's because I was there in front of them and they could, you know, interact with me and see me and stuff. But, you know, I couldn't become a member.

You know, they wouldn't allow me to be a member. So then it's really interesting because this last year I year, I was thinking about that and went back and wrote to my pastor, actually to the pastoral team, and said, yeah, I want to be a member. I think the lead pastor was on vacation at the time. But there was something that was like – and one of – the women's ministry pastor had some life stuff going on. They couldn't deal with it right now. So they're like, wait a minute, and we'll get back to you in a month or so. And in that period of time, I was looking at this stuff and seeing the way that our culture is shifting and the way that the transgender debate is shifting and the stuff with rapid onset gender dysphoria and stuff like that and seeing this stuff. And I'm going, man, and seeing this stuff and I'm going, man,

this is more confused now than it was 10 years ago. And it was pretty confused 10 years ago. Now it's going off the rails. What does it mean for me to become a member of this church? What does that, I mean, from, from the church perspective, um, what is that saying? And I was like, you know what? I, for the consequences of becoming a member and how that shifts the internal working of the church and how that affects members and how that affects our culture. I mean, this is so profound, Seda. I have friends who pastor churches or a friend who pastors a church in Eugene, not at First Baptist, but yeah, he's, you know, I think he said like one week, like three of his youth

group came out as trans and the rapid onset stuff. his youth group came out as trans and the rapid onset stuff like there's just a skyrocketing number of teens um coming out and it doesn't you could say this and probably get away with it from my vantage point it doesn't seem like their stories are similar to yours is how i maybe put it maybe they are maybe they are have the same kind of dysphoria you had and suicidal and everything it just doesn't seem like that is is that what you're getting on like your story does seem to be quite different than many of the the teen stories i'm i'm hearing is is that i mean i'm so cautious of my words here or how about you what do you think about rapid onset gender dysphoria and when you look at the culture how it's affecting teens with the trans conversation talk to us about that it scares the crap out of me

really yeah um you know and and it's it's it's really hard and i i don't know that that i will be given necessarily any more uh mercy than you It might actually be worse for me to come out with this stuff. But I used to work for this nonprofit called Transponder. It's a really wonderful organization here in Eugene that, that, um, serves the transgender community. But there was a point at which I kept running into these, you know, I, I run into things like, um, you can be trans and never have gender dysphoria yeah yeah and i'm like well how does that make sense it's from my perspective right i'm obviously i can only speak for myself but but it was really For me, I don't think that transgenderism is a healthy thing. I look at it and I see biologically we have male and female.

I mean, those are biological core categories, right? I mean, without that, our species goes extinct right i mean it's fun it's foundational um and you see that in so many ways not only in culture but also in biology and and so i don't i don't you know i see stuff about, we have all these different genders like demigirl and gray gender and, and, and stuff like this. I'm like, wait a minute. We only have two biological categories, male and female and gender relates to those. Right. yeah when i look at it that's what i see it's like gender exists in relation to sex i mean that's you know they are inextricably entwined

now yeah in sex you do have things that, you know, the occasional anomaly like, what is it? Intersex? Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's a lot of different intersex conditions, you know, but like androgen insensitive syndrome, you know, like complete androgen insensitive syndrome. like complete androgen insensitivity syndrome, you have somebody who is genetically male, but their body develops as a female. You know, it looks like a female body.

Well, I don't see anything biologically that would say that's impossible for gender, right? But still, gender exists in relation even if even if gender is not man or woman and i'm making a distinction here right yeah male female man woman um even if it's not man, woman, it still exists in relationship to man, woman. I don't know. No, that's a good way of putting it. So going back to the teen thing, yeah. When you say it scares you to death, like, can you unpack that a little bit and help us?

You know, I think you have more insight to helping us understand what, how can we get our arms around that aspect of the conversation. Because some people say, if you even mention, I mean, whenever I mentioned rapid onset, I don't something in the social environment that is playing some role in influencing trans umbrella identities, you know, demigirl, non-binary, and so on. I'm not saying it's all that at all. Your story is very different. not saying it's all that at all your story is very different um in most older trans people i talk to like yourself i feel like they're the ones that are the most concerned because because they do have the lived experience it's like this isn't the same thing you know um but my my main heart is

i want to help i don't want to get some people just throw up their arms they get angry right what does demigirl mean anyway what are all they're just on social media you know and that's not my motivation at all. My motivation is I think there is a population of troubled teens oftentimes wrestling with lots of other mental health issues. They're growing up in a society that's just – I can't imagine being a teenager today with a smartphone in my pocket at 13. I can't imagine um managing that um and so my it is out of

concern and compassion that i'm like man i i i want to help us understand you know this aspect of the conversation but it is it is yeah deeply concerning anyway i yeah i think i i think the problem is that you can't know right there is no way that i know of to say this person is genuinely trans and this person is not right right but i i think that what we need to start – what we as – what I would like to see is my transgender community start to bring in the experience of detransitioners such as Walt Heyer and Laura Perry. I don't know. Are you familiar with – I think you're familiar with Walt Heyer. No. Yeah, no of them.

Sex Change Regret. Yeah, yeah. And Laura Perry has a website called Transgender Transformed. And I think it's really important because these people have important stories, right? They had really tragic things happen to them because they were misdiagnosed as trans and then took transition treatments, right? So in Ryan Anderson's book, When Harry Became Sally, he talks about Walt Heyer and quotes Walt Heyer as having a dissociative identity disorder, which is different from gender dysphoria. It's not the same thing, right? So because of that dissociative identity disorder – what I get from reading her testimony on her website and in conversation is that she had a lot of internalized misogyny associated with childhood trauma and and her relationship with her mom and because of that rejected her femininity and and determined that she was trans

and transitioned um she talks at one point about um when she went to get a letter for hormones, her therapist after three meetings was like, you have some real mommy issues. And she was like, no, you know, I'm not here for that. I'm here to get a letter. And so she got, she transitioned and lived quite a period of time as as a man but if when i read her testimony what i see now again this is my perception in reading it you know yeah is that right who knows um but what i get from reading her testimony is that she transitioned because of this internalized misogyny and then started to experience gender dysphoria, which is what I would expect of someone who is not trans. Yeah.

Because her description of what ended up happening after her transition was, sounded like to me, gender dysphoria. Um, so then she transitioned back. Now the thing, so, so on the one hand, I would like to see our transgender community actually deal with this in a more meaningful way. Like, yeah, detransition is an issue. Detransition is a problem. We have people who are doing permanent change to their bodies and then coming back and saying, you know, that was a really bad idea. And then coming back and saying, you know, that was a really bad idea. Right. On the flip side, I would really like to see Christians, including Christians like Laura Perry and Walt Heyer, say, yeah, I was never trans. Okay.

Because what they're saying is I was transgender and I got healed from that or cured from that through my interactions with Jesus. But I read their testimony. It's like, that wasn't transgender. You were never transgender. Your experience was very, very, very different from mine. You experienced gender dysphoria after transition, not before transition. Before that, you had other issues. Okay. Now, you know, in some of the stuff that you relate about rapid onset gender dysphoria, you're talking about that the people who have this. A lot of the young people who have this have other issues going on.

I think those issues need to be addressed. Right, right. I mean, aside from the trans conversation, if you're dealing with past trauma, ADHD, or on the spectrum or whatever, or you're just like, you go through COVID and you're lonely and isolated and just life is just, you know just like you go through covid and you're lonely and isolated and just life is just you know like let's just set aside the trend let's just say i

mean we need to deal with all these things and and the thought that taking hormones is going to kind of solve all that i think that that's almost across the board when i'm seeing especially from people who are detransitioning in their early 20s, who might fit the kind of rapid onset profile, almost unanimously, they're like, I had all these other issues. I didn't want to deal with them. Nobody else really forced me to deal with them. And I thought hormones was the answer. And two years later, they're like, I still have more issues that I still haven't dealt

with. Yeah. I'm now more issues, you know, um, that I still haven't dealt with. Um, yeah. So I think, I think it's really, um, you know, important to deal with those. And, and I'm, I'm super, super grateful that, that I got all that, um, therapy before I transitioned. Right. Because I dealt with that stuff. Right. That was really important for me. And, and, um, lost my train of thought. I was going to say something, but, um, oh shoot.

I'm curious if, would you make a cap? Do you think teenagers should ever transition or do you think it is that rare exception of somebody who might, um, basically, I mean, you were a teenager at one point, you know? Um, and yeah. Are you, are you really cautious with teenagers transitioning or would you say categorically they should wait until they're, you know, I don't know if there's a certain age or. Yeah. I think, I think that when you're talking about transgenderism going categorically with anything is it's dangerous yeah um you know i i look at my when i was a teenager you know i remember uh dancing around and and when i was alone at home wearing a skirt thinking, why would anyone ever

want to, you know, wear anything else? You know, and so there's, you know, when I was a teenager, had I known, I didn't even know that transgender existed, right? So it wasn't a category. It wasn't a possibility in my mind. Had I known, had I,, had I lived now, I think it's very likely that I would have transitioned at that point. I don't know that, obviously. It's different. Um, had, you know, had I been tracked on some kind of psychological profile, I probably would have fit into one of that 80% of kids or thereabouts that, um, that resolved their gender dysphoria as they go into adulthood. Right. I would have, I would have been considered that. And that's one of the things that makes me cautious about that is, yeah, I would have at that point, because I rejected so completely, um, my femininity and, and, and, you know, my identity, um, as being anything other than a man um in in going on and trying so hard to become a man

um but then that came back to bite me in my 40s right because all of a sudden i couldn't i couldn't deal with the gender dysphoria anymore well it wasn't all of a sudden it was more like gradually yeah yeah but it accumulated to that point um so so you know um on the one hand i i it seems that that um that statistic and i think it's really dangerous to get hung up on statistics. Okay. Yeah. Because statistics are not humans, right? Right. And you can prove a lot of different things with them, including using the same statistics to prove opposite things.

Um, but, but in, you know, assuming the accuracy of that statistic, the 80% or so of kids with gender dysphoria are going to naturally resolve it seems really dangerous to start giving, you know, puberty blockers to those people. Yeah. Yeah. At the same time, you see people like Jazz Jennings or Nicole Mains and and people, you know, kids who are from the earliest age, insistent, persistent, consistently presenting as as the sex opposite to what their you know biological sex is and boy it seems like it was a good idea for them to transition i have a friend a trans man who talks about you know when he was a kid and and at one point um in in grade school, they line up to go in from recess, boys and girls, and he lines up with the boys and he's passing as a boy and he's like right there with the boys. And for him,

it was tremendously traumatic to be forced to wear a dress and to go back to school because parents found out about it and forced him to do that um his dad was actually a pastor um yeah and and the last time i talked with him he's like you know i mean he sincerely believes that god hates him wow on a personal level you know and and to me you know god is love yeah yeah so you know, and, and to me, you know, God is love. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, that's, that's a problem. So, so again, it's like, okay, how do you navigate this? And I don't know. It's tough. It's a complicated conversation. Um, I, I i'm curious and i i love that you're just

so chill and honest and don't get offended whatever i i'm i'm curious i there's you know i'm gonna ask a question and and acknowledge that it's very you know it's a controversial concept but the concept of autogynephilia does your story resonate with that at all i'm assuming you know um okay yeah what do you think about that like is that that category do you think it's do you know people that do experience i've got a few friends that would very when they read about it like that yep i absolutely struggle with that um um and i know it's very julius Serrano not a huge fan and yet when I read her story when I read some of her stuff

and then I read kind of stories of other people who would experience this it's like it does sound like that but I can't I'm not going to say like no it is you you know they're saying it's not but I don't know I'm just trying to get my arms around the concept

and so it doesn't that doesn't resonate with you at all. It doesn't really resonate with me at all. Um, I, you know, I, what can I say about it? You know, it's, it's, I would say that, um, that that doesn't apply to me. Um. But I can't really say. I mean, you know, one of the things I keep coming back to is 1 Samuel 16, 7, I think it is. You know, Saul is, you know, Jesse's kids are coming forth. And, you know, one of of them he knows that one of them is is gonna be the next king right he's this one he's like tall and tough and you know all this kind of stuff and it's like nope not him nope not him and and and then um uh what is it it says –

God looks at the heart one? Yeah, yeah. You know, man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks at the heart. So I keep in mind when I'm looking at other people, whether it's autogynephilia or rapid onset gender dysphoria or whatever, I'm looking at the outward appearance. Yeah. Right? All I can see is the outward appearance. I can make guesses based on the outward appearance. Yeah. But I could be wrong. Yeah. Um, because God looks at the heart. Yeah. Right. And, and, you know, when, when I look at

how a lot of Christians, especially Orthodox Christians look at me, I think, yeah, you know, when I look at how a lot of Christians, especially Orthodox Christians, look at me, I think, yeah, you're looking at the outward appearance, right? You're not looking at the heart. You're not seeing me as a whole person. You know, it's like there's this image of Caitlyn Jenner superimposed in front of me. And that's all you need to know. Right. But that's not me. You know.

Yeah. And you really don't know Caitlyn Jenner either. Well, it's so I mean, it's we're so prone more than ever in the last couple of years. Right. to take our favorite news outlet, political pundit, dare I even say podcaster, as kind of the lens through which you view all these issues. And then they become just issues, debate points, political things rather than individual stories. And I guess we're all prone to that,

especially once COVID hits, we're all isolated. So our whole world is just kind of online and everybody's grabbing for our attention with clickbait titles to get us around. And the trans conversation is just right smack dab in the middle of that. And yeah, I'm just really touched that you've had a good experience at First Baptist. Really. Me too. It sounds like you're okay with, hey, we might not line up on everything.

We might have disagreement, but you're humanized. You're listened to. It sounds like they're trying to understand your story and you as a person. Yeah. It's really amazing. amazing you know and and i i think one of the things that that the christians might miss is how incredibly precious it is to to be able to stand up and sing praises to Jesus in a corporate setting with all these other people, when for a long time you've felt like it was not safe, that you didn't have a place at church.

That you needed to hold your faith tight inside. Because for me, part of my faith journey has been, you know, from like when experiencing that rejection when I first transitioned, up until I started really reaching out to Christian churches, it was like I didn't go to church because I was scared. I didn't feel welcome. So I would hold my faith inside. And I didn't share my faith with my trans community because, really, they've been wounded. You know? I mean, when I was facilitating support groups for Transponder, I would hear again and again these stories of, yeah, I came out to my dad, it didn't go well. You know, um, he, he lit into me and we're not talking now. Um, and, and, you know, other family members and, and losing church, losing faith community, came out to my pastor and he's like, you know,

we don't want your kind around here. So it's like almost every person I'm talking with has a first person story of rejection by Christian. And so it's not like, you know, you come out, yeah, And so it's not like, you know, you come out, yeah, I love Jesus. It's not the kind of place where that's really going to come, you know, really going to land very well. And so, you know, I was really of introduced it, for the most part, it's like kind of fell flat. Not in the sense of, you know, like you're bad, but in the sense of really not interested. Yeah, that's your stuff, you know. Fine.

Yeah. But, you know, don't put that stuff on me yeah um wow you know and then then you go to a christian community and it's like yeah you know it's like this the the under one community you know that that i belong to inherently and it's like coming out as a christian is can be really fraught you know, that, that I belong to inherently. And it's like coming out as a Christian is, is, can be really fraught, you know? And, and on the other hand, I go to the other community that I'm really, really belong to. And it's like coming out as trans, it's really fraught, you know? There's a, there's a, um, a conservative, uh, uh i listened to uh dave rubin who used to be very progressive and liberal he's gay man married to a man not a religious person although he's getting more in touch with his jewish roots recently but um he said coming out as conservative was way more scary than coming out as gay.

I mean, to me, he's honestly way too conservative for my taste. I listen to him. He's entertaining. He gives me another perspective, whatever. But he's way too political for my whatever. But yeah, I just thought that was – he's like, oh, yeah. I was in a community where to admit that – I think I'm leaning more to the right now. People were like, they can't handle that, you know, in, in his context at least.

And I've got several, I mean, many friends who would be LGBTQ and yet more theologically conservative. And they often tell me, you know, I feel like I'm not Christian enough for the church and not gay enough for the gay community. So I just always feel like I'm on the fence somewhere, you know. And that's just so sad, like, especially when they say, I don't feel, here they are, you know, many of them are pursuing celibacy because they don't think it's right to engage in a same-sex relationship. And to me, that's like, that sounds like the epitome of faithfulness. relationship. And to me, that's like, that, that sounds like the epitome of faithfulness. You are picking up a very, very heavy cross and denying a serious aspect of yourself. And you're not

Christian enough. Like people are making you feel like you're not Christian enough. Then I'm definitely out. Like, and yeah, why do I, why do I get a free pass? I can waltz into any church and with all my junk and it's like, nah, it's fine. You know, that's just, yeah. And that's, that actually, that's an observation that I can make, right. Is, is, is that, um, before I transitioned as, you know, with, with all my substance abuse issues and, issues and, and, and, you know, sin out the wazoo. I had no problem going to any church and, and I'm just fine. It's like, okay, now I transition and I'm living a life that, that, you know, outside of transition is so much more in alignment with, with everything in scripture. But now it's like that single story right that single aspect is

like my whole um journey my whole personality everything about me is judged on that single story right oh you're trans you know you're like you know we know about know about Caitlyn Jenner. What else do we need to know? Oh, Caitlyn. Caitlyn's running for governor today, I think. Is this, is that today? Is the recall today? I don't think. Recall's today, but, you know, but, but, you know, I wish that, you know, every time almost every every almost every Christian book about transgenderism talks about Caitlyn Jenner.

You know, she's she's featured pretty made in a pretty major way. Most of them also talk about detransitioners. Nobody talks about Lynn Conway. Right. Nobody talks about Lynn Conway, right? Nobody talks about Cass April. Nobody talks about Aiden Dowling. Nobody talks about Jennifer Lethem. Nobody talks about Laura Jane Grace. Nobody talks about Kristen Beck. You know, it's like, can you unpack that for people that don't know who those names are? What are you getting at? I'm going to have to go to work pretty soon, so I don't know how much unpacking I can do right now. I do too.

So we'll round it out with this. But so Kristen Beck was a Navy SEAL who wrote a book called Warrior Princess so read the book Warrior Princess yeah let's see, Laura Jane Grace is the lead singer for

Against Me, a punk band she's you know, transitioned she wrote a book called Tranny. Um, uh, Jan Morris is another one wrote a book called Conundrum. Almost never hear about her. Um, Jennifer Lethem is a, it's a jazz musician, um, who, you know, I don't know when she transitioned, but, but she's, she's a trans woman. I guess my question is the common feature is these are all people who

transition, they're happy post transition, they're living a life as a different gender. Right, right. Right. Okay. Yeah. Like Cass Averill is, is the founder and president of, of transponder. Um, Aiden Dowling, um,

is, is, uh, he was featured. He was the first trans man featured on men's on the cover of men's magazine. Um, bucket, would you put buck angel in that category too?

Buck angel. I don't know buck angel buck angel uh trans woman um uh was the first trans woman adult performer porn star um uh no no not trans i'm so sorry trans man um trans man and and uh very outspoken just, uh, yeah, he, uh, Buck was on, I forget what else he does. He kind of does a lot of different stuff. Yeah. Look at my Buck angel. You would, it sounds like Buck would fit very much in the category of people you're, you're identifying. Um, right. Lynn, Lynn Conway, um, was, uh, um, worked on a lot of the architecture of the PC. She worked for

she wrote a book that was used for years in teaching computer science or programming. She was actually in DARPA, the Department of Defense team that helped create the internet. Yeah, she's like big stuff. Oh, I've heard of her. No, I've heard of her.

Yeah, very well off. Right. I mean, very, very successful person. Right. Yeah. Very successful person. Although, although after she transitioned and she was fired, she lost her family. You know, she was like, she was basically at the point of destitution when Xerox hired her. Okay. I think so. Yeah. Well, I do have to go and you got to go, Seda. I do. We have so much more to talk about.

Yeah. I just want to put in one more plug for Christians to stop using the term transgender ideology. Because that term really has, you know, it's used to say that, to make a political statement that, um, that, that my identity is not valid. Okay. Um, and, and that, that basically, um, that I transitioned because of a philosophical, um, ideology. Okay. That has no meaning for me. There is nothing I can connect to there. I transitioned because gender dysphoria was intolerable, because I could not keep going. So regardless of what I believe, whether it's right or wrong, or whether it's an ideology or not, it has no meaning for me. But when people use the term

transgender ideology, what I hear is, I'm not the least bit interested in your story. But what I am interested in is taking political action to limit your ability to function in society. That's what transgender ideology means to me. So if you can do anything to encourage Christians to find a different way to talk about that, you know, gender deconstruction or something like that, and not transgender ideology, I'd appreciate it. I thank you for that. That's super helpful. I try really hard.

I'm always on a journey to avoid any kind of term that's just sweeping, that just is way too broad. So I think I have used the phrase, you know, the ideology that is being promoted by some trans activists is maybe how I might say something. Is that even that doesn't help humanize it. It does identify that there is a thing out there that is a way of thinking that is being kind of forced on everybody. And if you don't believe this, then you're a transphobe or whatever. I'm like, I don't think that's helpful. And I do think what is the thing that's trickling down and influencing some of

the teens we talked about earlier? You know, like that. I do need to name that because I don't think it's helpful. And I think it's hurting people who, in your words, are being misdiagnosed, you know. But I'm totally with you on just that sweeping transgender idea. It's like I know loads of trans people who don't have the ideology that people are. Yeah. But yet when you use that you're putting that on me yes you're saying i adhere to this transgender ideology and i don't even know

what it is in the first place and the different definitions i've seen of it they're not all the same right um i'm like well okay so it's somebody who who wants to support human rights for trans people sign me up right i'm i'm here for human rights for all people right that's as as a christian to me that's one of the things that is my duty right i have an obligation to to uphold the human rights of all people, whether they're trans or not. So yeah. Or someone who believes in the essence of a person can be different from their sex. Well, it's like, I don't even know how to relate to that. You know, is that me? I don't know.

Yeah. I can't relate to it. It doesn't really make sense to me in a way that is practical for me in any sense at all. Yeah. Well, Seda, thank you so much for the awesome conversation. Thank you for your humility and vulnerability. And yeah, it was great

getting to know you more. Yeah. And thank you, Preston, for, you know, for actually wanting to get to know me as a person instead of just putting that image

of Caitlyn Jenner in front of my face. Oh, good. It's been my pleasure. Seriously seriously this has been loads of fun so yeah god bless god bless you Thank you.