Theology in the Raw - S9 Ep908: Disability and the Church: Dr. Lamar Hardwick

Episode Date: October 7, 2021

Lamar has an MDiv from Emory University and a Doctor of Ministry degree from Liberty University. Over the years Lamar has served as a youth pastor, hospice chaplain, football coach, and pastor but his most important role is serving his wife of 16 years and their three beautiful children ages 11, 8, and 3. In 2014, after years of silently struggling with social anxiety and sensory processing disorder, and a host of other significant issues, Dr. Hardwick was diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder. He was 36 years old when diagnosed. Dr. Hardwick has had articles published by various autism and disability websites such as The Mighty,The Huffington Post, Key Ministry, and The Autistic Self Advocacy Network to name a few. His articles and blogs can also be found on his website www.autismpastor.com.  Dr. Hardwick is the author of the best-selling book I am Strong: The Life and Journey of an Autistic Pastor and the recently released Disability and the Church: A Vision for Diversity and Inclusion. In this episode, Larmer tells his story and helps us understand how the church can better understand and include people with Disabilities. Theology in the Raw Conference - Exiles in Babylon At the Theology in the Raw conference, we will be challenged to think like exiles about race, sexuality, gender, critical race theory, hell, transgender identities, climate change, creation care, American politics, and what it means to love your democratic or republican neighbor as yourself. Different views will be presented. No question is off limits. No political party will be praised. Everyone will be challenged to think. And Jesus will be upheld as supreme. Faith, Sexuality, and Gender Conference - Live in Boise or Stream Online In the all-day conference, Dr. Preston Sprinkle dives deep into the theological, relational, and ministry-related questions that come up in the LGBTQ conversation. Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out Dr. Sprinkle’s website prestonsprinkle.com Stay Up to Date with the Podcast Twitter | @RawTheology Instagram | @TheologyintheRaw If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I have on the show today Dr. Lamar Hardwick. Lamar is a pastor, an author, a speaker, and he's recently written a book called Disability and the Church, a Vision for Diversity and Inclusion. And that's the topic of this podcast. Lamar is on the autism spectrum. He was diagnosed later in life, just about six or seven years ago. And he was a pastor before he was even diagnosed. And so he has a really interesting story and some just really brilliant, wise, humble thoughts on how the church can be the church to people who are wrestling with various disabilities. So please welcome to the show for the first time, the one and only Dr. Lamar Hardwick. All right. Hey, friends, I'm here with Dr. Lamar Hardwick. Thanks so much for being on Theology in Arise. Really looking forward to this. And man, I know you just came off of COVID

or still kind of recovering. So praise God that you're alive and still recovering for the most part. So why don't we start? I would just love for my audience to hear your story. Your website is The Autism Pastor, the URL. So that'll give us a little entry point into your story, I'm sure. But yeah, tell us about who you are. And then I want to talk about your book, Disability in the Church. Okay.

Yeah. Well, thanks for having me. Thanks for rescheduling too. As you said, I did have a bout with COVID there, but I'm glad to be doing better. So, yeah, I guess the good place to start is with Autism Pastor. I get questions about that a lot, obviously. questions about that a lot, obviously. Um, so, um, you know, for those who may not have ever heard about me or my work or follow me on social media, um, you can find me at my website, autismpastor.com. I have actually two Twitters. One was created, um, after I was diagnosed with

autism. Um, so that a lot of people follow me on autismpastor.com. So I, I mean, autism pastor, uh, on Twitter. So I get that question a lot. Um, so the first part of that story is, um, after years of, you know, just struggling with a lot of things, social anxiety, sensory processing challenges, um, what I come to find out is the term executive functioning, which I just tell people the administrative assistant in my head doesn't do his job very well. So, but you know, those are things that I struggle with my entire life. I started somewhere around the age of seven or eight started to realize there were significant differences between me and my peers you know for example I didn't realize that at the time but I

know now I take things very literally sarcasm and you know jokes that are dependent on being able to read body language or things that I just didn't understand. And so the best description I would give people is it was like the world was in on an inside joke that I didn't get. And so, you know, by the time you hit middle school, you just start to fake a lot of things to try to fit in or to not get bullied, rather. And so I did what a lot of people in the autism community refer to as masking, which is you mimic the social behaviors of people around you in order to fit in, even though you don't necessarily understand all of why people do what they do. So after, you know, really struggling with a lot of things, I learned how to manage. I did, you know, pretty well, always did well in school. But socially, just I just didn't get it. I didn't

understand a lot of things, which made school a little bit more difficult, especially dealing with teachers and authority figures. So fast forward, I kind of stumbled through life, started doing better in college, got out, got into ministry and the church I formerly pastored several years ago, there was a transition taking place where my predecessor was resigning and I was being considered to be the next lead pastor. And that 16, 17-month period, maybe a little longer, was extremely difficult for me. I hit what I call the proverbial wall, and I talk about that a little bit in the book, and finally decided that I needed to figure out what was going on. Because I would hear things from people in the church, like,

he walked past me, didn't speak, he's not approachable, he looks angry, he's not a people person. All things I had heard my whole life, but I was now hearing in adult language. And, you know, at the time I was the youth pastor, and most of my ministry had been done with youth and young adults. And so I like to joke that, you know, all teenagers are socially awkward. So nobody really noticed anything with me because I spent all my time around teenagers. But when the elders of the church wanted me to preach and teach in the adult service, adults started pointing things out. So that was a difficult time. And, you know, long story short, I ended up doing some research.

You know, long story short, I ended up doing some research. I had a colleague based on a assignment for my doctoral program at the time. We had to ask seven people to do an assessment of you. And a guy that I really respected who was an associate pastor at the same church wrote in his assessment of me, Lamar gets laser focused on one task at a time. Lamar has a hard time picking up on social cues, so on and so forth. And his observation literally read like diagnostic criteria for being on the autism spectrum. At the time, I had no idea what a social cue was. That was the first time I heard that term.

So like most people, when you don't understand something or know what it is, you Google it. So that led to it just leading me down this path. And so I eventually, after about a year of doing my own research, realized this is what people have been saying about me my whole life. So I finally got the courage to go to my wife and she helped me to find somebody who diagnosed me. So that's kind of a long story, but that's where Autism Pastor came from. Because once I was diagnosed in 2014 at the age of 36, I started writing about it, blogging about it. I started to get a large following of people from the autism community. And that term, Autism Pastor, actually came from a woman who told me I was like the pastor for the autism community because a lot of them didn't go to church, couldn't get to church for various reasons or felt shunned by the church.

And so a lot of them would come to me for prayer or spiritual guidance or answer questions. And so that actually came from her. I have no idea where she is now. That was back in 2015. Now that was back in 2015. But then I changed my handles to that because it made it easier for people to find me online when they needed to ask me something. When you were diagnosed, I mean, late in life, how did you – what did that do to you? Like, did that feel better that you now had a term for what you've been struggling with or what or did it do the opposite did it make you feel like oh my gosh i have a thing now or yeah what was your response

yeah it's a good question i it's actually was both um immediately um there was a sense of relief because and i may have said this in this book, it may have been another book I wrote, but I said for the first time I felt human. Wow. Because a lot of my quirks and characteristics, you know, people describe me in ways that were very dehumanizing. humanizing. And so, you know, for my whole life, I was characterized as a certain type of person. And those were the things that I knew I was never intentionally doing to people. I just couldn't figure out why they kept happening. And so having a language to describe how I process the world made me feel human. I wasn't weak. I wasn't weird. I wasn't, you know, a robot. I wasn't, made me feel human. I wasn't weak. I wasn't weird. I wasn't, you know, a robot. I wasn't,

you know, all sorts of terms that were, I was given. And so, you know, the thing about that is that people shy away from labels for me at the beginning was a blessing because I was already being labeled. Um, but at least I had control over now the label that I wanted people to be able to use to understand how to interact with me. But then and then the second half of that, honestly, because I stayed with the therapist that diagnosed me. I stayed with her for two years. My wife and I just sort of unraveled some complicated history. I was a sense of guilt, not for the diagnosis, but because of, you know, I started to replay every relationship that didn't go right and how it was my fault because I didn't know. And so there was it was it was both. And but that's why I stayed with her for two years to try to work through some of that. And how did people respond now that when you had the diagnosis and you're public about it, has it got, have they been more gracious in how they respond to you?

Or do you still hear terms and words and just mean stuff from people? Yeah, for the most part. So I disclosed my diagnosis. I still remember the day. It was March 8th, 2015. And I first disclosed it. I disclosed it to a couple of people like the elders at the church I was pastoring at the time, a couple of other key people, my staff at the time. in the form of a sermon series. And initially, um, the response was great. Like there was a lot of support. Um, but also I found that a lot of people were relieved because it gave them permission to sort of divulge some of the things they were wrestling with, you know, whether it's mental health issues or that family that we only saw every eight weeks, we realized that the reason why is because they had a kid on the spectrum or they had a parent that had dementia that lived with them, things that we just didn't know. So it was good for me, but it was also good for the church because people let their guards down and started talking about things that were taboo in the church. Um, you know, along the way, cause that's been several years, um, I've gotten more and more support over the years, which obviously has led to, you know, books and those types of things.

Occasionally I will honestly get messages from people who will say hurtful things like, you know, not too long ago, I mean like a year ago, I got a message from someone who said, well, if you're really a man of God, God would have healed you from that. Or you get people who don't believe what I'm saying. So there are still those out there, particularly within the church world and Christianity, who still have negative things to say, which is why the work that we've been doing is so important. What do you, I mean, if I don't, it's hard to speak for every person with autism, but I mean, what would be some big picture kind of things the church needs to learn and grow in this conversation? Like, I guess, what are some blind spots

the church has about autism, people with autism? How has the church responded to this or maybe not even or just ignored it in a way that has kind of maybe excluded people with autism? I mean, overall, I would love for people listening to say, how can we be more like Jesus to people on the spectrum? Yeah, I think probably the biggest thing, and I asked this question in the introduction of my book, because it's a question I had to ask myself after having a lot of issues. I finally had to ask myself, you know, what do people experience when they experience me? Because a lot of the feedback I was getting as I was transitioning into lead pastor was things that I'm like, I would never do that to someone on purpose. But the old saying, 90% of communication is nonverbal. Well, for someone like me that doesn't get that, it's really hard to navigate the world when you're saying things with your body that I don't understand, which makes it very hard to pastor

because church is highly social. So I asked myself that question, well, what do people really experience when they experience me? Because I don't like what everyone's saying, but everyone can't be lying. And so one of the things I challenge the church is to ask itself the same question. What do people with disabilities, what do people with autism experience when they experience the church? Because all these people that I've been consulting with, they're not lying about their experience. And I think the biggest thing I would say is the church needs to get better at understanding how people who are not there experience them because there's a reason why they're not there. There's a reason why the numbers of people with disabilities and autism and other developmental disabilities, there's a reason why those numbers are low as far as that demographic that attends your church.

And they're saying things about the church. They're saying things about their experience. The church is just not listening. So I think the biggest thing is for us to start asking that question. And then we can start getting those answers by actually inviting persons with disabilities, persons with autism, their families who have had experiences with the church that have not been positive to weigh in on what church should look like. And the second thing I would say that is attached to that is I think especially in the West, we've got to recognize that most of the way that we do church was created by the same types of minds. we never ask people with autism what would spiritual growth look like for them

or how can we adjust our music so that sensory processing doesn't overload or how can we adjust or how can we have better signage or better direction we never ask people from that community what church should look like and so the reason why we tend to see church done the same way is because it's the same type of minds, you know, usually extroverted people.

And there's nothing wrong with that, but there's a whole contingency of people that never got a chance to weigh in on what church should look like. And a lot of those were people with disabilities. That's, wow, that's brilliant. Hey, friends, hope you're enjoying the conversation so far. And if you are enjoying this conversation and others like it, would you consider supporting the Theology in the Raw ministry by going to patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw. You can support the show for as little as five bucks a month and get access to lots of different kinds of premium content

like monthly Patreon-only podcasts and blogs and Q&A sessions. Again, you can go to patreon.com forward slash the alginara or all the info is in the show notes that that's wow that's brilliant um and sad and and and i just as you're talking i'm like well yeah of course i mean yes that's i can only imagine what that feels like for somebody who's not part of the majority culture you know to to be forced to fit into kind of a way of doing things that just doesn't resonate with. And this goes for lots of different things, you know. I mean, a male-dominated church or a mono-ethnic church, you know, or old church, young church.

Right. young church. Um, right. Um, so you're saying, you're saying there's a lot, there's a decent percentage of people with, uh, I mean on the spectrum or other, um, disabilities that would love to go to church, but don't go because the environment is just too, too stressful, um, for them. Yeah. Too stressful or, you know, there's a lot of, and I talk about this in the book, there are a lot of barriers, um barriers for persons with varying disabilities to attending church. And they're things that a lot of times are often simple. And, you know, I don't know that the church intentionally places those barriers there. Yeah.

But again, when you're creating churches where those voices are not at the table, you unintentionally create barriers because you don't think about those things. those voices are not at the table, you unintentionally create barriers because you don't think about those things. So, I mean, it could be all the way from sensory processing issues. Like, that's one of the biggest challenges I have. Can you expand on that? I would love to know what you mean. Like, what are some things that church does that makes it really hard for sensory processing challenges?

Yeah. So, for example, like like we like loud music. And so, you know, for someone like me, it doesn't even necessarily have to be that loud. Like I hear things and my senses absorb things that what is typically called a neurotypical brain filters out certain noises and sounds and smells so that it can focus on what's important at the time. Where a neurodivergent brain, someone with autism or even ADHD, a brain that's just wired differently, oftentimes doesn't have that filter. And so everything is the same volume. And so example is, you know, I'm able to pastor because I know what's going to happen.

I also know my threshold for sensory processing. So I know I'm good for about two hours. I've worked myself up to over the years, about three hours before I'm just totally overloaded. But I also know what's going to happen. I have a cue sheet. I know exactly what's going to happen. So I can navigate that better. Um, so an example is sheet, I know exactly what's going to happen so I can navigate that better. So an example is like I'm not suggesting not having the music that we have, but how do we create maybe some kind of informal cue sheet for our guests who may have autism? Because part of the challenge with sensory processing is not only absorbing all of the senses,

absorbing everything at the same time, but also not being in control of it. What has helped me is part of being able to control it is knowing exactly what's going to happen. So a good example is we implemented it in my church hosts who will stand up and, you know, greet the people, but also say, this is what we're about to do. You know, today we're going to, you know, Pastor Lamar is going to preach about this. We're going to, first, we're going to sing a couple of songs and we're going to do so. You kind of have a sense of knowing what's going to happen and it helps, but also, you know, we have sensory bags that are

available that come with noise cancellation headphones, also earplugs for those who are disposable ones who can help muffle the sound, but then also fidget toys for children who want to sit in the service because a lot of times a good way to, sort of a brain hack that I learned, a good way to regulate senses is to have something else, sensory input. So that's what you see a lot of times with children who are younger, even adults, it's called stemming, where that's the child with autism who flaps or runs in circles or spins right there, regulating their senses by directing the sensory to something else. So a lot of tactile things. And so we provide some of those things so that we can still do the type of worship service that we do, but we provide accommodations for those who may have those sensory issues.

So sensory bags, I've never heard of that. Mm-hmm. I'm just going to think really just practically and out loud here, but like a cue sheet where like this song is going to be, you know, quiet. This song is going to be loud or something like that. Is that? Yeah, something like that. That'd be helpful. The length of the song. Okay.

So, and again, that helps me because, again, I know everything that's going to happen. So I know that we do two songs. I know the time that I'm going to have to, you know, quote unquote, endure it. Um, and I make adjustments to my capacity to endure a certain sensory input. So I may not, I may not be out for the first song. I may come out on the second song. Um, something as simple as I may not stand. I may chew gum.

You know, just I've learned through my therapist a lot of a lot of little hacks. But just providing people, that's what the tactile tools are. That's what the headphones are for. That's what the host are for to kind of frame in what's about to happen. And then, you know, of course, we have a space if it becomes too overwhelming that you can go and watch the service if you don't want to be in the room. So just giving people a variety of options and accommodations so that they could participate in the service. Well, that's great. I've got a good friend of mine. He's a pastor here in Boise, and he's adopted two kids with, they both have Down syndrome. And so naturally, you know, this is a huge heart, him and his wife. And so, you know, when the pastor has two kids

with Down syndrome, you know, they're very aware of how can we create a culture that is inclusive of people with certain disabilities. And so a lot of families with kids with disabilities go there. And I've talked to a few, they're just like in tears with joy saying, we just feel, as parents, we felt like we can't go anywhere because, you know, our kids are going to be a little loud or disruptive. And in a church, it's like, don't be disruptive. You know, it's like, we just don't feel like we can't be here. And they were just so happy that there's a church that understands kind of them, you know. But that took a pastor. Not every pastor is going to have kids like that.

But it just opened my eyes to like, wow, how can we as churches be like that? Like, that's just so sad to me to think that parents with kids are seen as a nuisance to go into the family of God. That just doesn't make any gospel sense at all. And I'm glad you said, I think a lot of, most of it's probably unintended, I would think. I don't think people listening to this are like, no, Lamar, we're not going to... I think people are like, wow, yeah, I want to be more welcoming so um i want to talk about your book so i mean i'm sure some of the stuff you're saying is probably probably unpacking the book but uh what led you to write it what's your hope for it what's some

of the main some some of the main kind of uh takeaway points uh from the book yeah good Yeah, good question. So I wrote a book, I guess it was 2017. And it was a couple years after my diagnosis, it was just sort of an autobiography. And now reflecting back, some of the things that I know were barriers for me in the church, why I understood I never really got a chance to fully engage. But I had a good church, even though I didn't have a diagnosis. I had a good church who did some things right. It was a smaller church. And so you just talked about parents not wanting to come because they don't want their child to be a nuisance. Part of it also is just creating a whole different sort of vibe in church culture. So, you know, kids are welcome. I can preach through anything. So kids screaming and crying doesn't really bother me. You know, that's one of the characteristics of being on the spectrum. We tend to get a laser

focus. So once I get going, a tornado could come through the sanctuary. I probably wouldn't stop. So, so it, you know, for me as a pastor, those things, I can set sort of the precedent and the culture that, no, it's cool. Like it's okay if the child comes in there. So I grew up in a church that kind of had those things without even knowing that they were accommodating me as a child. So I kind of reflect back on that first book. But this one actually came as a result of, I was doing a disability ministry conference a couple of years ago, and I was one of the main stage speakers. And I did a talk that really intrigued people that I talk about in this book where I propose that the church is

really headed towards, and our culture is headed towards diversity and inclusion. And I said, and that's needed. But what I shared with the church is that we can't really have that conversation without including the disability community. The disability community is the largest minority group in the world. Really? Yes. At about 20%. And I think that's World Health Organization and a couple of other places

have talked about that in the past. So from that perspective, I gave this 20-minute talk on, I think it was entitled Disability, Diversity, and the Future of Christianity. And from there, I got such a great response and people were like, oh man, you should write about that. And so by that time, I had already written articles and blogs and things about that. I was kind of pushing this idea out there that, you know, it's great that churches are trying to be more inclusive in terms of race and ethnicity. Yeah. But, but let's, let's zoom out and talk about the largest minority group in the world. And I, you know, I share with people, the disability community is the only minority group that you can. And, you know, I share with people, the disability

community is the only minority group that you can join at any time for any reason, which makes it highly unique because at any moment you can become disabled and join and now become a part of this minority group. And so really from there, because it got such a great response and people were interested in that topic. And I think also, at least at the time, not that I was the only, um, African American talking about disability, but I was one of the few, you know, as a male, as a pastor, but also as a Christian, like there's tons of great, um, disability studies out there. But a lot of the people that I also interact with, a lot of them are not Christians. And so, you know, back in 2016, 2017, when I started talking about these things, I was one of the few who was talking about it as a minority, but also as someone with a disability.

But as also as someone who understood the church, because I've been pastoring for a long time. because I've been pastoring for a long time. So eventually, you know, I got approached about doing a book and I was able to sign a contract with IVP to write this book and talk about some of those. And so, you know, my hope for the book was and is, because it just released in February, was to kind of push that conversation to say, let's zoom out, Let's talk about the disability

community. It's the largest minority group in the world. I do talk about some of the historical connections between race and disability, but then I go into, you know, what I would really like the church to know as far as some practical things. So there's, there's some theology on the front end and then there's a lot of practical stuff on the end. And my hope was to write a book that was theologically sound enough that pastors would be interested in it, but practical enough that families could get a hold of it and then begin to push the conversation in their churches. Because what I found in these conferences that I was doing for a couple years was I'd get great people who would come to my table, and they were all buying my first book, encouraging me to write a book about the talk they just heard, but none of them were pastors or leaders. They didn't have the influence to actually make any of this stuff happen that I was teaching in these classes. So I realized that nothing as a pastor, I realized nothing really happens

in a local church that's not important to the pastor and the leaders. So I had to get their attention, but at the same time, get this book in enough hands of families that they didn't have to mold through a lot of theological terms and things that they weren't interested in and couldn't understand. And it could be something that they could read quickly and say, Pastor, you need to read this book. So sort of have a hope for sort of a grassroots kind of way of strengthening the conversation in some churches and introducing the conversation in other churches. Hello, friends.

I want to invite you to come join us for our first ever Theology in the Raw Exiles in Babylon conference, March 31st to April 2nd. At this conference, we're going to be challenged to think like exiles about race, sexuality, gender, critical race theory, hell, transgender identities, climate change, creation, care, American politics, and what it means to love, love, love your Democratic and Republican neighbor as yourself. Different views will be presented. Everyone will be challenged to think critically, compassionately, and Christianly through all kinds of different topics. We've

got loads of awesome speakers that are going to be there. Thabiti Anyubwale, Chris Date, Derwin Gray, Ellie Bonilla, Jackie Hill Perry, Evan Wickham, John Tyson, Tony Scarcello, Sandy Richter, Kimmy Katiti, Heather Sriba, Street Hems, and many others will be joining us for the first ever Theology in the Raw Conference. All the information is in the show notes, or you can just go to PressAndSprinkle.com to register. And I would recommend registering sooner than later. Space is limited. You can come and join us in person in Boise, or you can stream it online. Again, PressAndSprinkle.com for all the info. And to introduce the conversation to other churches. 20%. So I mean, that's, and that's, I would imagine that holds fairly constant across

the globe. I'm sure certain parts might be higher than others. Yeah, that's a global number. That's the global number. So let's just say it might be a little lower in the US, maybe. That's still a very high number. So that's like if 10 to 20% of your church don't have a disability, there are some... Yet that's the question. Why is that? Are we doing

something as a church that is not welcoming them in? Yeah. It's asking that question. Do you like ministries that are focused on like we have a disability, or does that feel othering? And that's a – I really don't have any – I don't know. Yeah, so that's a huge debate. Okay.

You know, I like to see any form of intentional focus happen. I tell people my job is to sort of work myself out of a job where, you know, disability ministry or in some churches they call it special needs ministry is it's just ministry. Right. It's just taking and making the necessary accommodations, because what I advocate for, even in the book, is not to totally change. Some things in your church are going to absolutely have to change. Some things are going to have to go away. Not to totally change. Some things in your church are going to absolutely have to change. Some things are going to have to go away. That's what's so hard for so many churches. But the large part of this work is just saying, OK, how do we give full access for people with disabilities to every single area of our church? So our mission, vision, values, our programming is how can we take a look at it and making sure that people with disabilities have full access to be participants in the life of the church? Because you'll find there's some things that churches do that are great, but the way that they do them don't give full access, whether it's a person has a physical disability, intellectual disability, or developmental disability like autism. And so we're not saying you necessarily have to create an entire disability ministry that can sometimes feel like othering. The goal, even if you do that,

the goal should be, let's evaluate every area of our church and make sure that we're giving full access to persons with disabilities to fully participate and be fruitful and faithful followers of Christ on whatever level that looks like in their capacity to contribute to the church. I just thought of this, like how many churches, if somebody in a wheelchair wanted to give the announcements

or play in the worship band or preach, could they physically even do that? Like is the stage even set up to where it's like, you know, most stages, you know, whatever I preach, I'm like, I'm hopping up the stairs, you know, it's hard for me to even get up to where it's like, you know, most stages, you know, whatever I preach, I'm like, I'm hopping up the stairs. You know, it's hard for me to even get up there. It's like.

Right. Yeah. So it's. Those are very simple things to do. Yeah. I don't know if I've ever heard a sermon preached by somebody in a wheelchair. Have you? Or a worship band?

On a few occasions. And I've seen some worship leaders in wheelchairs. Okay. But again, you won't see it because there's no access. So you'll see far less of it because there's no access, like you said, to the stage. And that's not just – I even talk about that in the book, and that's a great point you made, because it's not just physical access. I talk about it in the book, like persons with disabilities need theological access. They need emotional access. I talk about even the book, like, persons with disabilities need theological access. They

need emotional access. Like, there's a lot of ways that we set up church to where it's not just being able to physically access things. So, I even talk about, you know, being mindful of how we preach sermons with characters that have disabilities. Oftentimes the tradition has been to use them as object lessons, which dehumanizes them. They're only there for able-bodied people to learn how good they have it. And it's like, no, these are real people. So we have to be careful about how we characterize them. And oftentimes they have no voice in the stories that we're telling,

which is also symbolic of the fact they have no voice in the stories that our churches are telling in the communities that we serve. So it's not just physical access. There are other ways that we need to make sure that we're giving them access. We'd probably see a lot more disabled preachers, especially physically, if there were probably more access points for them to just physically get on the stage. But there are other ways, too, that we need to consider. I want you to help us with language. I know in this conversation,

language is always changing and developing. Can you help coach us on what terms are maybe not offensive, that might be be too strong or maybe it is offensive and what's the language we should use i'm a huge fan of always using you know humanizing language are there certain terms that people christian use that are not helpful like is yeah disabled is that i mean and i'm going to be totally honest and if i say something that just sounds so dumb let me know um but even that term or even like is autistic person fine or should you say someone with autism even those minor nuances um yeah and that's a huge

debate too i touched on a little bit in the book um for me i tend to lean on however a person wants to be identified sure uh so so it gets tricky i i personally believe in a lot of reasons why I use reality of disability by using another term. But you only want to escape it if you have already placed a negative connotation on that word. So I think it's more about. So, for example, I talk about in the book, I had a former parishioner who had a problem with me. The pages I have called Autism Pastor. And why would I label myself like that? And I told her, and again, I share this story in the book without mentioning this person's name, said, you know,

it's only a problem if you think those two things don't go together. Because once I put them together, it became problematic. And it's because of either this unrealistic expectation and the baggage that we place on the language of passer and then this negative connotation of what it means to be autistic or to have autism. So part of the reason why I stuck with that is to have conversations like this. How do we demystify some of these words and how do we make sure that no matter what way we choose to identify it, it's not a way of shunning the reality of people who live in this community? So sometimes persons who use utterly abled or differently abled are doing it as a way of trying to make a more positive spin or to get away from what we've already subconsciously said is a negative thing, which is disability. So for me, it's more about the intent.

So even like the conversation of person first language versus identity first. Person first would be what you said, a person with autism. Identity first would be autistic person. I tend to do identity first would be autistic person okay i tend to do identity first more and it just depends on the the type of disability because autism is unique in that it's a part of your neurological makeup so a lot of persons in the autism community and granted i'm sharing this a lot of this does not necessarily come from a christian perspective but it's good to understand these terms as Christians. So a lot of persons in the autism community,

particularly adults don't like person first language, which is person with autism because it makes it seem like autism is an accessory. Okay. And so what they would say is you don't say person with femaleness, right? She's not a person who possesses femaleness she's a female okay just like they you know they because it's a neurological uh developmental disability

it's hard to separate that person from their autism in a large sense their neurological makeup is what makes them who they are and And so how do we identify a person separate from the thing that actually makes their personality what it is? So I tend to use autistic, but I honor those who choose to use other language. I think the intention, and then having the conversation like this,

just open an honest conversation with persons who may not like your preferred term and find out why and then just try to honor that it's hard like it when i'm just speaking like if i was on another podcast just talking about whatever and i happen to bring up autism or you know it's like i want to use a term that if i'm not thinking of something specific i want to use a term that's going to be the least offensive for everybody and but you're saying there's just different views and different perspectives. I mean...

Yeah, you're going to run into... Honestly, you're going to run into somebody who's probably not going to be a fan of whatever term you use. I tend to use a lot of things in my book interchangeably for that reason, because there are people who don't like special needs ministry. And I get that because they're saying people with disabilities needs are no more special than yours. They're just different. Right. And I get that because they're saying people with disabilities needs are no more special than yours. They're just different. And I get that, but I know that some people prefer. So I try to use the interchangeable for the sake of moving the conversation forward, realizing that

there are things that I personally prefer. But for the sake of moving the conversation forward, I try not to get too offended. If I was going to publicly say special needs versus disability ministry, which would you, if I didn't have the actual person in front of me, what would be the least offensive just as a 30,000 foot level? I think the term that we have been moving towards over the last maybe five to seven years has been disability ministry. Okay. maybe five to seven years has been disability ministry. But you still have churches who will use special needs ministry. And that's primarily because when you have a large population of parents,

they identify with that because their children do special education. They do. So it's a term that attracts them and helps them readily identify your ability as a church to accommodate their child because that's what it's called everywhere else. Okay, okay. So I don't think it's an intent to offend. It's an intent to raise the flag, hey, we have a special needs ministry. Oh, well, we get that because we have special education classes. Okay. But I think the trend has been more towards disability ministry so disabilities that's not an

offensive term if hey i have a friend with a disability if i said that in pat like um yeah so and this is why it's so important to center and i talk about this in the book this is why it's so important to center the voices of the disability community much of the conversation about these topics for years has been around people. So there's a saying in the disability community, nothing about us without us. Like, don't talk about these topics without actually asking us. One of my favorite stories in the Bible, and I share a little bit about this in the book, is the man born blind. I think it's in John 9. You know, Jesus eventually goes on to heal him. But what's so interesting about that is that there's a whole conversation going on around this guy. It's like, oh, he can't be the guy. It's like, let's ask his parents. Well,

let's ask Jesus. And it's just like, hello, like, can I have a voice in this conversation? Right? Like, even when Jesus, I find it so funny, even when Jesus' disciples are asking him, who was born blind? Why was he born blind? Is this Madison or his parents? I'm thinking, you know, he can hear you, right? He's not deaf. But we tend to, I say that jokingly, but we tend to have a lot of conversations about these things without people with disabilities. conversations about these things without people with disabilities. And so I shared that to set up that a lot of the reason why we are starting to hear more about the term disability not being a

negative thing is because primarily persons with disabilities will tend to not be offended by that. They want you to speak to the reality of what it is. A lot of the alternative terms have come in the past historically from persons who are not disabled, who were trying to find nicer ways to talk about persons with disabilities without being offensive. And people with disabilities are saying, no, that's not really offensive. That's what it is. So, and it's okay. And I think we need to demystify it and not make that a dirty word. So you tend to see more people with actually having disabilities who will prefer that term. we need to change this, change that,

you know? And then he asked the actual person of color, like, I don't care about, I think there's a serve about the aunt Jemima thing or whatever. And it's like, right. I've never met a black person who's like,

was so offended at that as much as like white, like, uh, got bigger fish to fry. Or even, even the phrase, uh, Latinx. Um,

I don't know if you've seen that. Um, they did a survey of actual Latino people. How many have even heard of it? And those who've heard of the term, how many have even heard of it and those who have heard of the term how many like it and use it and it was like 3% of the Latino community because they're like

that's a very kind of like non I mean our language is gendered like Latino, Latina and that's just part of our culture and to force a non-cultural thing on our culture is just weird so neurodiverse is one I keep hearing part of our culture and to force a non-cultural thing on our culture just just weird but yeah yeah that's so so neurodiverse is one that i keep hearing um instead of i guess what would be the

like mentally disabled because even as i say that that is like man is that offensive mentally disabled um neurodiverse is that yeah so so neurodiverse is speaking specifically to persons who have a neurology that is atypical. So that would be your autism, your age. So it's not just autism. It's autism, ADHD. Okay. You know, people who, you know, for lack of a better phrase, whose brains are just wired differently. Sure.

So a large push from the autism community and even you know those with adhd and sometimes persons have both um is to say and again a lot of this is not necessarily coming from the christian community but i kind of try to value the things that help us have better conversations so so a lot of that is to say okay there's a whole contingency of people, particularly in the autism community, who have been pushing the idea that autism is just a variant, just like eye color, right? So, instead of trying to make it seem like persons with autism have some huge issue, even though there are some things that co-occur with it, let's start looking at it as a diversity issue. Like, this is a diverse brain. It's a different wiring of the brain. And it does come with some challenges,

but let's look at it like, you know, eye color or any other variant of, you know, of human beings. Is that the approach you take? Do you agree with that? To a certain extent, because there are you know i see some value in that but again the the philosophy of neurodiversity in its totality you know as you know i say i get off i exit the freeway because there are other things that are attached to that movement that i don't necessarily agree with so you know and it's like with everything else like there are some things that you know i, I just eat the fish and spit out the bones. But that concept I do think is a value. Part of my struggle with some of the neurodiversity movement is that it,

and again, I think it's like even with all theology, like most theology or ideology is usually a reaction to being oppressed by a different version of thinking about that. So I think the neurodiversity movement the extent that it sometimes i feel like it ignores some of the challenges yeah so it's like it's it you know it's not all good like there's a lot of things i struggle with sure what i want to be is to be celebrated as a human being to be celebrated as someone who is uniquely made in the image of God. And so a lot of where I start to exit is when some of that starts to rub up in my theology and my understanding of the Imago Dei.

But I understand their position is what I'm saying. A lot of it is a strong reaction to what they feel has been oppressive language that's been used against them. No, that's helpful. That's super helpful. I guess that gets into, I was going to ask you about the theology of disability. I know that's a whole conversation.

Do you get into that in the book? Just asking questions about what causes this? Is this the classic? Is it part of the fall? Before Genesis 3, would there have been people with autism? Would they have had autism, you know, in Genesis two or is that too, is that like a non-issue to you or I don't know. No, I think there's an issue. I, I,

I wrestle with a lot of things in the book. So when I tell you like the front part of it is, is loaded with theology. Like I, I talk about, you know, again, the John 9 story, the whole—I think because Christianity is largely a religion, and really most religions, but because we're Christians, we talk about that. We're obsessed with origin, the origin story, especially with Genesis. I think we subconsciously get caught up in the origins of anything that appears to cause suffering, right? But when Jesus is asked that question, he says neither. Like there's another conversation that needs to be had here.

And he changes the question of why can't this man see to how can God be seen in his life? So he says neither. Like the origin question is not really helpful right now. It is not just about the origin or the cause. It's about the quality of his life. How can we see God? He says, this is done so that the glory of God might be seen in him. So for me, the, I began my theology of disability with saying, I think we've been asking the wrong questions. We get a lot, we get really caught up on the causes, which pushes us towards, okay, so then we need to pray for this person's healing. And I talk about that

in the book. I believe, it starts in the Bible, I believe that Jesus healed people, but I also know that he didn't heal everyone. And so there's a section where I talk about healing where if that's the case, then there's a bigger, there's a bigger reason for his healing. And if you do a study, most of it happened in the early parts of his ministry, but also there tends to be a trend to where the healing is really designed to restore those persons back into community who were pushed out on the margins of the community because of their disability. So the healing in and of itself is not the end all be all. And I even think I have a line in the book where I say that Jesus didn't just come to bring healing to earth. He came to bring heaven to earth, which is to construct our culture and our society to have a new way of thinking of things

and a new way of seeing people that we push out on the margins and so i talk about that uh i even tackled the tough question i've got some comments about this about uh is there disability in heaven like one of the questions i ask is is a new body belief a reward or a requirement for entering heaven like are we rewarded with a new body belief a reward or a requirement for entering heaven? Like, are we rewarded with a new body or are we required to have a new body to be in God's presence? Because you have to wrestle with, and I piggyback on a lot of work from the late Nancy Eastland, who wrote The Disabled God, where she talks about Jesus coming back from his resurrection, he still carried the marks of his impairment. Well, if you study that medically and we know what happened to him,

and I break down what really would have happened in the Roman crucifixion, if those things were not healed, those injuries would have permanently disabled his body. Now, we know that he comes back and he's able to function. So, one of the things I ask people to wrestle with is, one, Paul, a lot of where we got the new body belief is based on some things that Paul says about bodies, which when I've studied it, I don't think he's really talking about what we think he's talking about. He uses some common Hellenistic languages of tents and bodies. Some of it appears that he's talking about these super apostles being stripped of their baptismal robes because of them preaching a false gospel. But it's presented as body.

Yeah. And there's another place where he talks about that kind of the same thing. Second Corinthians 5 you're talking about. I remember working through that passage years ago. And yeah, it's – you read through it once and it's like, oh, yeah, it makes sense. And you really get – if you get down into the weeds, it's a complicated passage. And yeah, I think he is drawn on – And he uses – he takes two different common images, but he melds them together.

So it's like, what are you really saying here? different common images, but he melds them together. So it's like, what are you really saying here? So I say that in the book, like to say, okay, I'm not telling you what to think, but I'm telling you to think. And why is it that we so need that to be true? Like for me, the question is, again, asking better questions, why do we so need that to be true? Yeah. Like, why do we need heaven to be this great escape plan? You know, and I talk about in the book, we have, one, we have an aversion to suffering. But the whole point of that section was to set up the fact that, and I push this notion because I don't really come to a conclusion. I just want people to think about where this came from.

What I do want them to think about is because heaven is our ideal as Christians, we tend to try to replicate the ideal. And so if we envision heaven as a sacred space that is devoid of disabled bodies, it's no wonder why we recreate worship experiences in churches that are also devoid of disabled bodies because we're trying to replicate our ultimate ideal of what a sacred space looks like. So we really have to think about why we struggle with this so hard. And it has to go back to, well, what is our ideal vision of a sacred space? When you close your eyes and think about heaven, has anyone ever thought about seeing someone there with a disability? And if that's the case, it kind of points to why we struggle with it so hard here so do you lean towards and i know it's so it's such a hard tension because it's like we shouldn't focus too hard on it but at the same time i don't know the question you can't i

can't get out of my mind because it's such a, I mean, how we do envision the future does affect how we live now. So would you lean towards the view that somebody who has a physical disability will have a resurrected body that will somehow replicate that in some way and yet not be hindered by it? Or how would you, and there's a lot of speculation, obviously, but. It is. So one of the things that I, I don't know, I said this in the book, but I've said it to people. One of the things that I start with know, I said this in the book, but I've said it to people. One of the things that I start with is that whole passion of Paul to say, okay, where did we get this idea from? But I said, but in the end, even if I'm interpreting this wrong, does Paul really know? Like, he hasn't been to heaven.

So we're basically depending on his ideas, just like ours, of what heaven might be like, even if that's what he's saying, I don't think that's what he's saying. But even if he was, I don't know that he's been there. So how does he really know? So I tend to lean on picking up on the work of Dr. Eason, where she talks about Jesus coming back with the impairment. And then I also flip over to Revelation in the book, and I talk about how it says that the only one who was worthy to open the scroll was the lamb, and I'm paraphrasing, who was morally wounded yet still standing. And so it's sort of this image of these disabling marks of torture that still remain on his body, but yet he's still standing. And there's other places in the book where I talk about this, but ultimately what I think Paul may would have been hinting to, and if we look at

Jesus, him coming back still in his resurrection, still bearing the marks, is that somehow what if there was a third option where we maintain our bodies, right? Because what Paul is talking about is not necessarily a new body. He's saying something is added to it. It will take on incorruptibility. So what if everything that makes those things disabling in this world are no longer the pain and suffering and all that is gone, but you're still—so you're putting on something that was stripped away because of sin, the incorruptibility, but you still have the same body. Because you see in Revelation, right, there are visual identifying markers of people's

ethnicity and race as they sit around the throne, right? So those that identified their body, when it talks about every tribe, nation, and tongue being present, well, I tend to think, well, if those things weren't taken away, and those are ways that we can still visibly identify what a person looked like here on earth, what else do we keep? And if we keep those things, because we saw Jesus keep those things, then maybe, and this is just my wrestling with it, then maybe the things that are associated with them that bring us pain and suffering here on earth and even you think about the medical model versus the social model

of disability even the shame and the stigma that goes along with those things is all stripped away and so i'm still very much in my body but something has been added to it to where the things that have been done to it no longer have power in this sacred space. But I'm still very much me. Yeah. I just see a lot – it is because I'm not part of the disability community. I'm always hesitant – or not always. I didn't used to even think about it.

I just talk and think out loud and whatever. talk and think out loud and whatever but more recently i've been more aware of the fact that uh yeah that that my perspective is always gonna be limited i i think i'm so i'm this is a not i'm not comparing this at all but i was born like deaf in my left ear i've said this before you know and i mean i would i hope i get a hope it's working again in the new creation. I would love to know what stereo surround sound sounds like. And even from a design standpoint, like this, my left ear here, this isn't just a random appendage. This was designed originally to hear.

And somebody that maybe lost a leg in the war, like that, I get the balance of like they they should be we should erase stigma around that um they can find we shouldn't assume like oh your life is just gonna be totally like no they can say hey look i have a an amazing life this is god is using this in an amazing way um and yet still long for but i do hope in the end I'll have two legs and I can run again. But I think it is that stigma of like the majority culture is just pounded in the message that something is wrong with you. Something is missing. Something is not right.

Something isn't. That just, I can imagine, right? It increases so much shame and stigma. So the counter reaction is no, nothing's wrong with them. They're just, it's just a difference you know it's like well it can be two things can be true at the same time we can say this shouldn't be stigmatized and yet we can also say there will be some kind of ultimate restoration in the resurrection is how i think about it but again i you know yeah and again i you know i don't in the

book i don't come to a conclusion like i yeah Yeah, I just want people to think about it. For me, the bigger question is, however, we think about tends to influence the know that we've thought enough about how that influences how we try to recreate sacred space. So I just invite people in the book to wrestle with that wherever you land and just realize that has huge implications for how we create spaces for people with disabilities here. That's, man, yeah, that makes so much sense to me. Real quick, and then I'll let you go. Can you just give us a snapshot of the church you pastor? I would imagine that there's probably quite a few people at your church that have disabilities. What does your church look like? Yeah, so that's an interesting case because the church that I pastor now, I haven't even been there three years, and almost two of it have been COVID. Oh, that's true. So I'll say quickly, what I can more readily identify with is the church I previously pastored, I talked about when I was diagnosed.

Okay. a previously pastor I talked about when I was diagnosed. Similar to your pastor friend, we started to get a huge influx of people, families with autism and other disabilities started to attend there. And when I left there, we left a very thriving disability and special needs ministry. We started that work at the new church I got at. What I did discover too, and I should have said this before, is in just being open about it, it actually exposed the huge number of people who are already in the congregation who has some kind of hidden disability that they just were not comfortable talking about. So there's a large number of people, and the church I pastor now is far smaller,

but there's a large number of people there who have various disabilities, whether, you know, one of our staff members and, um, elders has a child on the spectrum, um, who's a part of our tech team and just great. Um, so, so there is, it's as much smaller church. There's a large number of that. Um, there's some people that are physical disabilities, but a lot of the work that we were beginning to do kind of got shut down when COVID happened because we weren't even physically meeting. right as the time COVID was starting. So I didn't have a lot to say about COVID because it really didn't, it wasn't really a thing, but what it has done. And what I encourage churches to do is that this period of time has, has really forced us to become creative on how we serve people because

accessibility became an everybody problem when COVID hit. And what I tell the church is that the disability community is watching because we became super creative when everyone couldn't access our programs and our buildings. So I think just riding this wave of being super sensitive people who can't access the church and using that to create more creative disability. So we've done a lot of things virtually, things that we haven't necessarily been able to do in person, but there's a pretty large percentage of people with varying degrees of disabilities, whether it's intellectual, developmental, or physical. I love that. That's beautiful, man. The book is Disability and the Church of Vision

for Disability and Inclusion. Lamar, thanks so much for being on the show. You can find more about Lamar at autismpastor.com. And yeah, you're pretty active on social media as well, I gather. Yeah, I take a quick break after COVID, but yeah, I'm pretty active on there. Cool. Thanks so much for being on the show. Really appreciate you and your, yeah, your honesty and wisdom is so helpful for people like me that are really trying

to get our arms around this important topic and even have the conversation. I mean, this is, I was really convicted because I've been podcasting for, I think, five years. And up until recently, I hadn't even talked about a theology of disability.

And so I was like, man, this is a huge common missing gap in my routine. So thanks for helping fill that void. Thanks for having me. All right. God bless. Thank you.