Theology in the Raw - S9 Ep909: #909 - Pastoring People through Politics, Polarization, and Pandemics: Matt Chandler

Episode Date: October 11, 2021

Matt Chandler is a pastor, speaker, and writer. He’s been pastoring The Village Church in Texas for 18 years and is the president of Acts29. In this podcast, we talk about how he’s handled the last couple of years of politics and Covid--and all the polarization that comes with this. Theology in the Raw Conference - Exiles in Babylon At the Theology in the Raw conference, we will be challenged to think like exiles about race, sexuality, gender, critical race theory, hell, transgender identities, climate change, creation care, American politics, and what it means to love your democratic or republican neighbor as yourself. Different views will be presented. No question is off limits. No political party will be praised. Everyone will be challenged to think. And Jesus will be upheld as supreme. Faith, Sexuality, and Gender Conference - Live in Boise or Stream Online In the all-day conference, Dr. Preston Sprinkle dives deep into the theological, relational, and ministry-related questions that come up in the LGBTQ conversation. Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out Dr. Sprinkle’s website prestonsprinkle.com Stay Up to Date with the Podcast Twitter | @RawTheology Instagram | @TheologyintheRaw If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I have on the show today, the one and only Matt Chandler. Matt is a well-known pastor, speaker, writer. He has been the pastor at Village Church for 18 years down in Texas, and is also the president of Acts 29 Ministries. And Matt is... I've gotten to know Matt over the years at various conferences, and we've kept up just kind of through, I don't know, social media, emails and texting and so on. And just, it was really just super impressed with the guy. He's one of my favorite preachers. I absolutely love, I've been a huge fan of Matt for a long time, but I've been even more impressed with just him as a person as I've gotten to know him over the last few years. So in this episode, I wanted Matt to help us navigate the polarization that has just

crushed the church over the last couple of years through pandemics and politics and so on and so forth. And so that's kind of the focus of our conversation. And I thought he had a lot of really just helpful and wise things to say. So please welcome to the show for the first time, you want to know me, Matt Chandler. All right. Hey, friends, welcome back to another episode. I'm here with Matt Chandler. Matt, thanks so much for being on Theology in the Raw, dude. Listen, Theology in the Raw is my thing, Preston. All the cool kids are into it. That's true.

I mean, I want to have you on to talk about like 10 different things, but the main thing I would love to hear your voice speak into is just church climate, discipleship, politics, the last two years, COVID, pastoring. I mean, wrap all that up into one. Oh, is that it? That's it? That's it. Yeah, yeah. Okay, here's the entry to my question. Every single pastor I talk to says entry to my question, every single pastor I talked to says the polarization and the difficulty, the polarization that has erupted in my church and the difficulty in discipling people through all of that has been the hardest thing I've ever faced in my entire ministry life. Every single pastor, I mean, all across the country, independent. Has that been your

experience and what are your thoughts on the last two years-ish? Yeah, there's a couple of things I would say. One, I think I would frame anything I'm saying as I've been at this church for 18 years. And it was a church of 160 when I got here and now is, you know, multiple thousands. So that's a unique part of my experience in that for most of these people, I've been the only pastor really they've walked with in a lot of this, which isn't a normal experience for pastors. normal experience for pastors, really all over the world, not just in the U.S., but even if I think through Acts 29 in Europe and in Australia, especially other parts of the world, it, like the number of no-win situations that you have to make the call and half your congregation is going to read into it a thousand different ideologies that you may or may not even be aware of that honestly lead them to choose

to go find another church or just vanish. And so the initial data we're seeing, data we're seeing, you know, before the, you know, the Delta variant came and there was another wave of either people withdrawing or shutdowns, or is that a third of your people, this is almost universally true across denominations and tribes, a third of your congregation that was there pre-COVID, they're more in than they've ever been. They're giving more, they're serving more, they're all in. You are their place. You guys endured together. The second third isn't quite sure. They're not quite sure if they want to stay, they're kind of on the fence. They, they really wish you would have said more about this or less about this. You know, they wonder why you spoke out about this, but you didn't say anything about this. What does that mean about

where you are ideologically and politically? And then the last third is just gone. And what we don't know about that last third now is did those third, did that group of, you know, that last third, did they join another church or are they just gone? Are they that outer perimeter that they kind of attended church, but really didn't belong, if I could use that language, to the community of faith? They just liked your music or thought you were funny or you were closest to their house. So that's where they went. So nobody knows about that third yet. I think it's going to take a few more years, um, to watch that play out, but that's what a lot of guys are experiencing. And I don't remember, you know, I've been at the

village for 18 years. I don't remember in, or maybe I can remember one time in the years before COVID where I had to make a decision with the elders that I knew upon making it that half or more than half of the congregation was going to be super frustrated, if not outright angry, at the decision that we made. And so right now, that's just normal. I mean, right now, that's just normal. I mean, right now, you just call that Tuesday. And so the number of things that people are reading into what you're saying, even like I've tried every rhetorical device I know. I mean, I've tried the old, I'm not saying this. Or I've even gone so far as, please don't email me this because this is not what I'm saying. I'm saying this, only to get that email that says the same thing. Can you give an example?

Do you have a concrete? I mean it's – yeah, I think the concrete examples – and keep in mind I'm in Texas. I mean we just decided last year the pandemic was over. I think we're one of – I think there's a couple other states that have just done that. We're like, no, it's over here. And so I think anytime you're speaking anywhere near the violent political divide right now, the assumption is you're buying into that whole worldview. And so masks were a very big deal here, and they were a symbol of oppression and tyranny, not a symbol of safety. And I know people who are people who are watching this might think, man, that sounds crazy and backwards. But man, when I get on the phone with my friends in Seattle and New York, it's the exact same madness all the

way to the left. I'm pointing there all the way to the left. And so it's like both the left and the right have these radical ideologies, nobody's actually able to acknowledge the science in the middle because I can prove my point with an article. You ask me about this, I'll send you the Israeli study. You ask me about this, I'll send you the CDC. You ask me about this, I can find a study that supports what I believe. And it's all built on this algorithm that my phone knows what to show me. And so this is indoctrinating people so that they're living their lives based on ideologies that I think most of the time they're unaware of, rather than doctrine that's been tried and true for thousands of years. And that's the big challenge right now,

is as I've tried to shepherd people, nobody wants you to play the moderate role. Well, very few people want you to play the moderate role. And something that seems like a really kind of just common sense decision that you have to make, you can't punt on it, you've got to make it, is then in turn read by your congregation through these ideological lenses that disrupt and disorient them, many of whom end up leaving the church. And, you know, before we started recording, I don't know a pastor right now. And I know, I mean, I'm the president of Acts 29. I run with pastors. I just had lunch with two pastors. I don't know a single pastor right now that doesn't have a story of someone he loved

well, buried their children, led them to the Lord, baptized them, did their premarital counseling, did their wedding, visited them in the hospital, that those people haven't seen something in the way that they've led or decision they've made that makes them now make the accusation that you've changed, you're not preaching the gospel anymore, and they'll leave and find a church that lines up more with their ideology. Some, like even if it's a place that doesn't land where they land theologically, but they get that, you know, it's all a conspiracy thing, or it's, you know, it's all a misogynistic thing. Whatever the thing is, it's on both sides. Yeah, yeah. And that's happening in a speed and a volume

that I think pastoral ministry hasn't experienced in the last 100 years. Do you have a – like what caused it? I mean, for example, people will say, well, 2016, it was Donald Trump, or 2020 with Biden, or it was George Floyd, the race stuff. Is there or do you think it was always kind of there? It's just all these things kind of cause it to pop up. I mean, have you gone back to a source? I mean, I don't know if we need to.

I think it's way too complex, man. I think it's a thousand streams. Certainly, certainly the Internet's not helping us. And I'm not that a thousand streams. Um, certainly, certainly the internet's not helping us and I'm not that guy, man. I mean, I'm, I, I love my phone. Uh, I love that it's 2021. I don't have some man. I wish I was, I wish I was living life back in the 18. I'm not that guy, man. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I, I love my phone. I love the internet. Uh, Instagram's a helpful tool. Um, the internet. Uh, Instagram's a helpful tool. Um, but man, when you drink a steady diet of something that's toxic, you will not be able to help, but become toxic. And once the algorithm gets you, all you're ever going to see on your phone is going to support

that ideology. So you will start to think other people are crazy because there's nothing to challenge the ideology that you bought into. Because if you go to your computer and you search, you know, trouble with the vaccine and your computer, that AI server, wherever it is, knows what you want to see is going to put those first four or five links to validate the fact that you think it's the mark of the beast. And if you're on the other side of things, you're going to find four articles on people who lost loved ones because they didn't get the vaccine and how the, the latest uptick in cases is because of the anti-vaxxers and, and then it just fuels anger and it fuels distrust

and it fuels division. And that's certainly part of it. Uh, but it is, but then it's tied into all those other, because everything you just mentioned, there's a sane way to look at it. But the algorithm's not interested in sanity. It's interested in you staying on your device and the ideologies at play, some of which are demonic, are not interested in sanity. They're interested in you buying wholesale into a worldview that cannot see the enemy behind your enemy, but only sees people to hate, people to separate from, and people to meme and vilify. Hello, friends.

I want to invite you to come join us for our first ever Theology in the Raw Exiles in Babylon conference, March 31st to April 2nd. At this conference, we're going to be challenged to think like exiles about race, sexuality, gender, critical race theory, hell, transgender identities, climate change, creation, care, American politics, and what it

means to love, love, love your Democratic and Republican neighbor as yourself. Different views will be presented. Everyone will be challenged to think critically, compassionately, and Christianly through all kinds of different topics. We've got loads of awesome speakers that are going to be there. Thabiti Anyubwale, Chris Date, Derwin Gray, Ellie Bonilla, Jackie Hill Perry, Evan Wickham, John Tyson, Tony Scarcello, Sandy Richter, Kimmy Katiti, Heather Skriba, Street Hems, and many others will be joining us for the first ever Theology in the Raw Conference. All the information is in the show notes, or you can just go to pressandsprinkle.com to register. And I would recommend registering sooner than later. Space is limited. You can come and join us in person

in Boise, or you can stream it online. Again, PressAndSprinkle.com for all the info. And people to meme and vilify. I think you're spot on. That's what I keep coming back to is because I try not to absorb too much news. It's just not good for the soul. I like to be aware of what's going on. Yeah. But kind of raw journalism doesn't kind of exist much anymore through most platforms. Like they're designed to reinforce a narrative to provide me psychologically.

We know that like if they can get you kind of angry upset yeah they're gonna hook you then they get more ad money and all these new the traditional news outlets are kind of dying through the rise of podcasts and other yeah grassroots stuff so they're doing where they can to get more people right and how do you do that you yeah you you get them angry you get them i can't believe they say you know oh my gosh and and it's just causing this and then i'll listen to kind of i'll try i'll try to make sure i listen to kind of different news outlets you know like what is this side saying what's cnn what is you know someone on the right you know

and it's like wow if i actually if my allegiance was actually to that side which it's not oh i would be all in on both of them i'd be like schizophrenic yeah i don't know be enraged oh yeah yeah it's crazy and and so when people don't even have that awareness that they are just absorbing that one side of the aisle it's it's yeah and that's what i'm talking about that's the they they're not even aware of the ideologies that they're beginning to embrace. They're unable because it's a slow cook. Yeah. They're, they're unable to spot, wait a minute, I've, I've crossed this line. And like, I mean, I, I mean, literally, I mean, I could just tell stories, but I need to be careful

telling stories like people that, I mean, you could just watch them sliding and then now they're gone and they're angry about everything and they're not a, like a Ted Lasso that just always, you know, was delighted to just be in the room and, and now so angry and, and not happy and no miserable, absolutely miserable. And, and I'm like, man, how did we get here? And, and they're not even aware that they're there. Like I had a conversation, uh, with, with a woman just a couple of weeks ago that I was like, Hey, do you, do you realize how angry you are all the time? Do you, do you like, I can't believe that immediately it's personally offensive. Immediately it's tied to this kind of whole systemic structure that now you can't trust anybody and nobody... And I would just encourage you to consider what's the fruit of the ideology that you've embraced. And so that's been... Again, and that's really difficult to pastor in. Well, that's my question is, how do you respond to that?

Like, that's the challenge, I guess. I'm trying the best I can. And again, a lot of this is I've been here 18 years, and I've got a lot of trust in the congregation that I pastor, is to be able to point it out to them. Yeah. that I pastor, is to be able to point it out to them, is to ask them to be a little bit more skeptical about the news that they're taking in, asking them to get away from their phone and see how much happier they get. Pay attention to those emotions God gave us that serve as a great check engine light on our souls. Like, pay attention to how you think about people. Because I'm such a big, there's an enemy behind our enemy.

Yeah. That that's the fight we're in. Yeah. Isn't that guy that's politically in a different space than I am. Our ideologies are diametrically opposed. But I need to be asking the Spirit of God for that man's soul and to give me a heart that loves him and to thwart his ideology, but at the same time ransom him from sin and death rather than make a meme about him that I think is cute and put it on my Facebook. You know, and that's the, you know, again, you go back to the early church navigating the Roman Empire, and there's a thousand differences between that and where we are today, right? We've got all the, in fact, I love Tom Holland's book, Dominion. I know some people are like,

I can't believe it. It's just so fascinating how everything that Christians, a lot of Christians would point to and say is evil, actually has its roots. They don't even exist if it's not for Christianity itself, you know? And anyway, part of what I'm trying to point out in that moment is here's the Roman Empire imprisoning, killing, torching, and yet the spontaneous expansion of the early church is in the conversion of Romans. So the church had this ability to despise the wickedness and violence of the Romans towards them while still longing to see them come to know Jesus Christ as Savior. And they won, and they pulled it off by the grace of God. And the good news for us as Christians, because man, I think we're born for this moment. I think church is in the perfect spot to solve the ills of this present crisis.

If we would play the part. Yeah. Like how, how low is the bar of apologetics right now? I mean, think about it. Yeah. It's not, you remember Keller,

everybody having to like figure out presuppositional apologetics and, and then before that, trying to have to answer where the dinosaurs came from. And like, what does it look like to just be kind and to not participate in the outrage, to show hospitality and walk in authenticity? That is a powerful apologetic in 2021. Just refuse to give into the outrage. refuse to give in to the outrage. Like, and I mentioned Ted Lasso. I love the show.

The, the popularity of that show shows the hunger of the human heart towards optimism. Yeah. That even as the world's burning down and you just lost the game five, Neil, where are you? Right. You, you see that there's a, there's a better day. There's another day coming tomorrow. And I think people are so hungry, so outraged, fatigued, that to get into a community that refuses to participate in the outrage, I think is a powerful apologetic. I'm just not sure the church knows how to do it. Hey, friends. Hope you're enjoying the conversation so far. And if you are enjoying this conversation and others like it, would you consider supporting

the Theology in the Raw ministry by going to patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw. You can support the show for as little as five bucks a month and get access to lots of different kinds of premium content like monthly Patreon-only podcasts and blogs and Q&A sessions. Again, you can go to patreon.com forward slash TheologyNaral or all the info is in the show notes. I'm just not sure the church knows how to do it. Yeah, the metric I've been using for myself is when I listen to whatever, certain podcasts, news outlet, read something,

do I leave that more motivated to love my neighbor and my enemy? Yeah. Cause I might listen to something that I might even, it might be 90%, 95% factually true. I might even fact chat. I'm like, yeah, this is, these are good facts. I think they're, they're analyzing situation. Well, I think I probably agree with it, but I'm, I'm motivated to love somebody who might completely disagree. Sure. If I'm not motivated, then it's probably not healthy. And I think that's where people fall into the trap because now more than ever, the other side, whatever that means, the other side is not just wrong.

Now they're seen as evil. You throw a pandemic in there and the race conversation and politics and everything. It's like this person is fundamentally evil and it would be unjust for me not to oppose that person, that president, that person who voted for that president or whatever. But it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. They're still our neighbor. Maybe they are an enemy. Yeah.

They're probably more of a neighbor than an actual enemy. But either way, love is the answer. Paul does say, hey, these are evil men. So there is a category where there are evil people. Yeah. But the posture, and I'm not even a, I mean, we know each other. Not everybody watching this may know me. Like, God is a God of love, and we're to be people of love.

But that doesn't mean that God is love actually is why he has wrath. So sin is serious. We're not to capitulate to it. We're not to, but none of that takes away from the call to show hospitality, to be gracious, and to be the kinds of people that actually believe in a sovereign creator God who has ransomed and rescued us from sin and death, and to live our lives in such a way that reveals that we believe we know how this ends. And that's why, I mean, I preached through the book of Revelation in part because I needed our congregation to remember that, one, this is what we're fighting. Look here in this interlude between the scenes in heaven. This is what we're up against.

But I want you to look at the victory that's guaranteed to us. Like I loved in Revelation that, you know, John goes to the four horsemen of the apocalypse. Well, John doesn't. The angel's like, hey, here are the four horsemen of the apocalypse. And then the very last sentence of that chapter is, in light of these things, who can stand? Just a terrifying question from an angel in the throne room of heaven. And the very next scene is the church across time and space worshiping Jesus. It's like Revelation answers the question with, the church of Jesus Christ can stand. That's who can stand. Who can stand in the face of death?

The church of Jesus Christ. Who can stand in war and pestilence and famine and sickness? The church of Jesus Christ can. So we really are meant to be overcomers. And in this season of human history, the kind of unshakable optimism in the sovereignty of God, in the plan of God to save sinners, and in the power of the Holy Spirit to do what we cannot, if the church could get that in its inner guts, then man, what a time to shine bright in the darkness. shine bright in the darkness. But if we try to fight back with their weapons, then it just makes it far worse, not better. We don't win if we fight like the principalities and powers that we're set

up against, right? This isn't the message of the gospel. It's not how Jesus defeated sin and death. So that's what I'm trying to do here and in the churches where I have influence. Have you seen – so I mean you're aware of this. You're preaching on it. You're addressing it. Have you seen success where people are like, oh, yeah, gosh, I got kind of swept up into some ideology? Yeah. Yeah, sure.

We've seen some. And then because, I mean, we live in the day that we live. We've had others that double down on their ideology and want to send me a link to this either – and this is what's crazy about where I am. Either this super hyper-conservative right-wing kind of take on it or kind of the left-progressive take on it that's the other end of the spectrum. We were doing a – this is such a great example of where we are. Um, we do member meeting at the village church and we were in a member meeting and we were doing a Q and a, we were using, um, Slido to do a Q and a. Yeah. So basically Slido, if you're watching this, I use it all the time.

Yeah. Oh, I love it. You ask a question and then if somebody likes your question, they can toggle the question up so that what the most people are asking actually rises to the top. Well, on the Slido screen, so I'm holding my iPad, I've got a doctor thanking me and the elders for how we're handling COVID. Wow. Thank you so much for the seriousness at which you take it. You know, it helps me, you know, minister to the community that I'm in. And like, it's just a fuchsious praise for how we're handling it. Two questions down. Why is our church believing another doctor, you know,

completely opposite? I mean, just blowing us up for how we're handling it. And I mean, I thought that it was so fun to be in there and just go, Hey guys, is anybody else seeing this? Just so you can be gracious to us. Here are two doctors, two doctors and look how far apart they are. I've got one saying great job elders and one going, you know, what is this that we're doing? And so, um, there are people that have doubled down. We're that stat I gave you at the beginning, a third, a third, a third, that's exactly where we are. We've got a third that's more bought in than they've ever been. We've got a third that is like, I mean, maybe. And then we've got a third that we don't know where they are. They could be here, but they could still just be too nervous to come. They might have moved on and not let us know. They might have just stopped going to church altogether.

It's going to take time to figure that out. We've got a great beat on our membership. It's a little bit harder with people who just regularly attended. I kind of create a category of they kind of go to church when they say, this is where I go. They don't really belong. They just go. When they go, we're where they go. Those are people that are near impossible to track.

So yeah, we've experienced what I think almost everybody has, that rule of thirds. What scares me, I hear – so a good friend of mine pastors a church in Ventura County, and there's kind of one church in the area. I want to try to avoid names. People who are in the area will probably put the pieces together. church in the area. I want to try to avoid names. People who are in the area will probably put the pieces together. But there's one church that has become kind of this Republican-only, I mean, conspiracy, I mean, just the kind of church you would expect, very political. And what's happening is, from what he tells me, is a lot of people who are part of these other congregations, they're all kind of leaving and going to that church. Well, that's just creating such,

even more of an echo chamber, more division. And that, I just, as I think forward, I'm like, man, what's it going to look like when evangelicalism has these kind of churches that are these outposts of echo chambers of a certain ideology, rather than having people who lean one direction or other kind of scattered throughout the churches i'm like that's just yeah it's just gonna i mean it's

gonna look incredibly divisive and it is gonna be divisive you know because part of it's like oh aren't you are you kind of glad that they left like you know you didn't really want them there that's that was my first response like oh no blessed subtract Yeah. I think they're calling them Patriot churches. I mean, that's a term that I've heard. I don't know if that's a term that has stuck, but I've read about that a couple of places and heard about that. I've heard that phrase used for churches that kind of are the, yeah, Patriot churches that are kind of the all in Republican, you know, we're going to save America kind of stuff. And, um, I think what we've tried to do, I mean, I'm in Dallas. I mean, you go Northwest, East and South, and there's a big well-named

church that could fit into the category of what we're saying. Um, we are trying to, even as people leave our church, maybe to attend those, I just want to be really kind on the way out because I think they're going to wake up in three years and go, oh my gosh, I joined a cult. And I want them to know, hey, come on back home. Yeah. Come on back home. Yeah, yeah. And so we're certainly seeing that. But I also think that I want to be careful because as hardened as I see the right get,

I see the left get. The left has less and less and less space for you to not agree. Yeah. I've often said that the kind of pro-Trump hysteria that freaks a lot of people out to me is the mirror opposite of the hyper anti-Trump hysteria too. Yeah. It's a, it's a, if he's the Messiah, then that's problematic. But if he's Satan, then, then you're just waiting for another political figure to be your Messiah too. Like, and I don't see that as, as any more helpful. You said offline, Matt, that you see this as not a parentheses of time, but something that we're in a new season that will probably not go back to where we were before the pandemic. Do you want to flesh that out a little bit? Yeah, I can, and I hope I'm wrong. Well,

maybe I don't. I don't think two years from now is going to look like two years ago. Okay. And I think there's a thousand reasons for that. I just think we live in a brand new world now. And the idea – and you can already see some of that happening. Like a lot of people are like, let's just get past the 2020 election so this will stop. Yeah. Right?

We all thought that, didn't we? Yeah. Like just – let's just get past this election and then things will settle down. Nope. Right. We all thought that, didn't we? Yeah. Like just let's just get past this election and then things will settle down. Nope. Okay. Let's just get, let's just get to a vaccine and then things will go back to normal. Okay. Let's just get back to the, and the whole, it's just me talking. The whole economy is built around strife and anger. All of it. The, I mean, from those apps that you have on your phone to, it's all built on keeping us in this state of anger and fear, um, for, for whatever ends ultimately principalities and powers are up to. Um, and so I, I, I just don't, what would have to happen

for us to settle back into this? I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt. Yeah. You know, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt. You know what? You're not the reason that country's going this way or that way. There's a, it's far more complex than that. Yeah. Like, I don't, I don't know what would have to happen to get us back to where we were. Revival, maybe, but then if revival comes, we're not going back to where we were. We're going into something new. So I just can't, as I'm looking at the horizon, I'm looking at the present scenario, looking at the horizon, I just, I can't imagine us being able to go back. So we're in something new. So we've got to figure out how to do this in the here and now. And then whatever comes in the

next couple of years, let's get into that from the here and now, rather than going, I hope we can get back to normal. Because I think, I mean, you just look at already the complexities of the world now, like we're already starting to have supply chain issues issues like crazy. I mean, we were just trying to get some chairs for our back patio and they're like, sure, we can get that to you in nine months. Yeah. Oh yeah. Nine months. Maybe we're just shooting for that. Um, and, and I read like, just read a quick article on, I mean, even with COVID shutting down ports in Vietnam and stuff like that, you're looking at a, uh, like a coffee shortage worldwide. So if nothing else pushes us into physical violence, not having coffee, that all over the U S what's next beer. Come on.

I know. Right. Then what? And so, um, so yeah, I, I don't think we're going back. I think there's something new ahead of us and I want to be excited about that. I want to be excited about the opportunities for that. We're watching so many of the promises that were thrown out on millennials in particular falling to pieces before our eyes. To be there, to love, to invite in, to remind of the beauty of the gospel, to sit around a table and to be human with one another under the hopes that Christ is healing us. Like, what an opportunity. But we can't do it if we're furious and angry. We just can't. we won't do it. So we have to let the Spirit of God calm us down.

And it's not, I mean, it's not easy in this environment. I mean, it's like every other day, somebody does something just as the pastor I'm watching. So let me give a perfect example. I know we're probably all over the map on vaccinations and how you should play COVID and all of that. Like Biden coming on and going, if you were going to mandate the vaccine now, whatever you want to believe about that, that just whacked a hornet's nest for me in the state of Texas. That is an unwinnable, I mean, like to double down on that. I mean, one it's again, I don't want to get into the morality of what you want to do with the vaccine, but knowing that to do this is going to cause great division in the country and to do it. Like for me, I'm just like, well, goodness

sakes, I've got a, I've just about got everybody settled down. You know, I'm just like, well, goodness sakes, I've just about got everybody settled down. I've just got about everybody down for their nap and somebody banged on the door. I mean that's what it feels like. And it feels like once you get everybody calmed down again, hey, remember this. Remember what we're called to. Remember what Jesus has asked of us. Remember that somebody else bangs on the door. And so it's this near constant having to remind of the schemes of the enemy in our day and age to keep us outraged and angry and anxious rather than to rest in the peace of King Jesus and then out of the receiving of that peace, love our neighbor and give the benefit of the doubt and refuse to participate in the meme wars on Facebook. Yeah. Yeah. So that, that was the hornet's nest. Really funny. Yeah. Well, that was

a huge, I mean, I, I'm in a super conservative state where there is a lot of conspiracy theories that they seem to have data for. And you're able to like, man, it's not, they can't come to that. And then bam, you're like, okay, well, let me, let's go back to this. And so I'm just using that as an example of how, when you're trying to help people stay calm, you're trying to keep people, you know, with their eyes fixed on the author and perfecter of their faith, um, in an environment that I the author and perfecter of their faith. Yeah. Um, in an environment that I'm in and guys that are in left environments are fighting this on the other side. Yeah. Um, that all of a sudden something happens and it's, I knew it. I told you so dad, come on, you know, go buy more bullets. Uh, it's a, it's a challenging environment. And it seems like nobody – it doesn't seem like there's a lot of sane people to help with that.

So how have you guys handled the COVID stuff as a church? Have you just taken kind of a moderate approach? I mean, we're not going to mandate masks, but if you want to wear one, don't judge somebody. You know, and we, we did mandate and, you know, we closed for a while, a lot longer than people thought we should have. Um, and then when we reopened, we created space and there was a wear a mask. And, and that was, that was tough for some people. Yeah. And then when Abbott lifted the mask mandate, we slowly, you know, began to, to open up. Uh, but again, it wasn't fast for some and it was too fast for others. That's what I mean. It was just this and still isn't a very, well, not, it's not as much anymore. Right now, everything's the vaccine because masks in Texas, they're just not they're just not happening.

Yeah. Even though I'm seeing people voluntarily wear them more now than than maybe three or four months ago. OK. Yeah. But so the mask thing is just like it's it's not even a conversation here unless somebody had to fly somewhere and is complaining about it. Right, yeah. But the vaccine is a huge thing here. How have you handled that? Man, I haven't. I've tried to just tell people that to go with their – they need to go with their conscience on this. They need to do research, go with their conscience because, man, I've got doctors in our congregation that are like, go get it.

And I've got congregation – doctors in the congregation are like, man, you need to wait on that. And so, yeah. And then it's funny for me being a pastor and seeing other pastors. I was sharing with my wife, Lauren, two weeks ago that a well-known evangelical pastor posted a thing on the vaccine in support of the vaccine and backed it up with a study, like, here's a study that shows all this. And on the same day, another well-known evangelical posted against the vaccine and posted a study to back up why. And I mean, it's the day we're in, right? And even people who are listening to this now, listen, if you're listening to me right now, you are having more than likely a strong reaction in one way or another.

It's just where we are, you know? And this is what I mean. And you could find that study that the one pastor had, and you'd be like, that's right. Or you could find that, you can find a study to back up what you believe. And that's why I'm going to say to people, man, you need to be true to conscience, do your research, talk with your doctor, and do what's right and good. And people don't, I mean, 90% of people listening right now, I mean, I'll just being straightforward, like you don't have the expertise. I don't have the expertise to really do a thorough evaluation methodologically,

medically of these studies too. They look good on the surface, but these are, you know, I've done enough with, you know, with the gender conversation that read hundreds of stuff. And it's like a peek behind the curtain of the science of that conversation. And it's, unless you're spending hours and hours and hours in peer review research articles, research articles, which I've done in some of these areas, you see that the idea of the science is – it's comical. It really is.

It would be like in a biblical studies perspective. It's like saying, well, biblical scholars say, I'm like – Sure. Let's get everybody with a PhD in biblical studies in a room and see how much they agree on anything. You know, it's like – yeah. So it's just a mess. So yeah, it comes down to I already have this viewpoint that I've probably been fed from my media, my news outlet. And then I'm going to get the study that supports that.

And so you're not neutrally going and searching for the best study necessarily. There's so much confirmation bias going in. maybe isn't locked in on their device, like 90% of the world or, um, isn't, you know, doesn't have a, I'm, I'm with CNN or I'm with Fox might legitimately just have a doctor that says, let's wait a bit. Yeah. Yeah. Let's just wait a bit and see that it's, it's new. Let's give it a little bit of time. Right. And, and then great. Then do what your doctor's saying. Right. Yeah. Like, I'm like, who am I to say, no, you need to ignore your doctor and love your neighbor and get,

I'm not qualified. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. Yeah. I mean, is it faulty logic? Whenever I wander into COVID, I get a bunch of emails. So this is just a question,

a genuine question. Is there faulty logic in thinking like the vaccine is available to everybody? It's very effective. If you want to get it, you can get it. If you don't, then that's your choice. You obviously, you know, maybe you're rolling the dice. Maybe I'm rolling the dice, but, you know, getting vaccinated, whatever. But like it's available to everybody. So in a sense, we shouldn't – it shouldn't be creating that much division, anger, and anxiety to work. The whole economy is

built on it. So if we could just even use the laws of reason and logic, right? That concept of first principles, what's the first principle, right? And then based on that first principle, let's address this really complex situation. Can we agree on the value? Like what's the first principle when it comes to this or that? Now let's have the conversation, but that's gone. Everything's so emotional and it's meant to be, and it's been politicized. And it, again, it's tied to ideologies. The vaccine is not the vaccine. The vaccine is tied to a whole worldview that you may or may not even know that you've embraced. And you, so like one, you know, they're like one of the

ideologies. And it's interesting because this is, this really does vary from not only state to state, but area to area. Like, let me give you the, is it the government's job to take care of me? Or is it the government's job to free me up to take care of myself? Yeah. Like that, those are huge questions. If you answer, it's the government's job to take care of me. Now think about how you think about the economy, how you think about medicine, how you think about, um, what you get paid, how you think about now. But if you answer that question the other way, no, it's the government's job to let me take care of myself. Well, now every domain of society, you're going to see completely different than the other person who says, no, the government's job is

to take care of me. Um, and, and so those are like, those are very real questions in the minds of people right now. And, and their thought on what the government should or should not do is far more emotive than it is informed. And, and I'm not talking about, please don't email me. I know you read the constitution. Okay. Maybe even you're a, you know, a constitutional lawyer or something right now.

Speaking in general generalities, this is an hour long podcast. lawyer or something right now. Speaking in generalities, this is an hour-long podcast. So yeah, I think that would be an example of two pretty significant ideologies that shape your whole worldview depending on how you answer a simple question. And you could find evidence on both sides of even that.

Like, you know, seatbelts and motorcycle helmets are mandated in most states, you know? Absolutely. But then there's other things on the other side. It's like, no, you have the freedom to go do something stupid and wreck yourself or whatever. The argument that I have heard is like, if, if everybody or most people were vaccinated, it would cause, it would basically kind of stamp out the virus. I don't know.

But that I don't know is which study supports that and doesn't, you know? And, and, or people that have an underlying health condition where even the vaccine doesn't protect them. Yeah. I have a friend that lost somebody who was vaccinated but had a health condition. Yeah.

I don't know. It's, I don't know. Yeah, it's a hot mess. I think my appeal has been, if we could be gracious to one another and quit vilifying one another when we land in these different spaces and quit allowing them to pull us into the world's madness, and instead, as the church, give each other the benefit of the doubt, love one another in this, create freedom in this space for there to be disagreements, because it's far more complex than anybody wants to let on. And if we could think about how countercultural that kind of community would be. But instead,

to me, we just sound just like the world. We've got their arguments, we chirp back and forth at each other. And again, I'm not a guy that thinks all ideologies are equal. I've got my own. I was born in a certain place, raised in a certain way, experienced Christ in a certain way, read my Bible a certain way. I know who I am. My compulsions are contrary to even what I'm talking about right now. I'm aggressive by nature. When pressed, I don't seem to melt, I tend to puff up a little bit, all of these things, the spirit's been sanctifying me in for 30 years. Um, so when I say to do our best to get the benefit of the doubt, to try to admit complexity, to be a people, then a lot more spaces than we're comfortable

with are both and rather than either or kind of people, and keep the table open for our enemies. I just have to believe that that would be such a moment and such a powerful testimony from the Church of Jesus Christ in this angry, hostile, anxious day. How have you been—we have a few more minutes left—but how have you been personally this last year? Has this been like the hardest year of your ministry, too, like as a person? No. 2020 was terrible. I would say for the first time, in significant ways, I could agree with a lot of pastor friends of mine. In fact, what I said earlier is true. All of my other pastor friends,

where for the first time, people I have loved well, I have buried their lost children, I have done their premarital counseling, I have married them, I have counseled them through brutal seasons of marriage, have decided that I'm a little too this direction or that and left the church. And, you know, there are people that leave the village and I just don't, man, I either didn't know them that well or I didn't. And so their frustration, I want to try to maybe learn something from it, but there's not a lot of mourning. We're in Dallas, a lot of great churches, they'll land in one. But I haven't had like, you know, a wave of three or four families that have been with me for 15 years plus, that we've endured some things together, then make what I would still to this, and if they end up watching this, they'll know I'm talking

about, make clearly false accusations about what I believe and where I land and then leave the church for it. So that's not easy. But man, we have seen, like we're in a season right now, the church I pastor, we're in a season of visible fruit bearing that seems to have even deeper roots than what we experienced in the initial years when we were growing by a thousand a year and blowing and going. This past Sunday, I was in Colorado doing a commissioning service for a guy that was on staff with us for seven years, and now he's pastoring Storyline in Arvada. So I'm up there, I'm doing that. Meanwhile, one of our former campuses that's now autonomous, we rolled off all our sites to autonomous churches, is celebrating two years of autonomy, blowing and going, seeing people come to know Jesus,

making disciples, while at the same time Sunday morning in Brighton, Michigan, Union Church, one of our guys that trained here for two years to plant a church, kicked off in Brighton, Michigan in a school, people coming to hear the gospel for the first time. And then here at the village, we just heard two powerful testimonies of conversion. A young woman got up and told the story of having an abortion when she was in high school. And after that abortion, just feeling like she was dirty. And so she just treated herself poorly and gave in to baser compulsions all through college. And then she had come to the village and heard about the healing

grace of Jesus. And so she's trying to share her story through tears. And the whole congregation stood up in a standing ovation before she was baptized. And then as they baptized her and pulled her out of the water, the whole congregation stood up again and gave her a standing ovation, which for me now, I wouldn't get to see it. I just got to hear about it. Like to think about the men and women in that church who are holding on to secret shame, to watch this sweet 22, 23-year-old woman stand up in front of, you know, 1500 people and say, this is the grossest part of me. And Jesus loved me anyway. And to see a church that gave that a standing ovation.

So at the same time, we're seeing those kinds of things. And that's how I want to spend my life, man. So the pain for me, I'm trying to, you know, I'm always trying to gospel myself. I'm human like anybody else. But one of the things I've been doing recently is, you know, I'm always trying to gospel myself. I'm human like anybody else. But one of the things I've been doing recently is, you know, in the Sermon on the Mount there in Matthew 5, he's like, hey, blessed are you when you're misrepresented, when you're misconstrued, when you're to see some of what you're going to have to endure as a pastor now is part of the privilege of serving the people of God. Whereas we're coming out of a season where, you know, like, hey, the sheep bite, be careful of the sheep. But I wonder if in this next season, what we need as pastors to see the kind of hurts that we're enduring

as a sharing in the sufferings of Jesus for the good of his people. And I wonder if that won't sustain us in the world that's here and is coming. It's a good word, man. Focus on the kingdom and the gospel. Not that these other important issues are super important. But if it's distracting us from doing what we were doing pre-pandemic, then, I mean, Satan is celebrating, right? That's right. doing what we were doing pre-pandemic, then, I mean, Satan is celebrating, right? I mean, even if one side is significantly wrong, whatever side that might be,

if it's disrupting the unity of the church, we have to acknowledge that as evil and a win for Satan. I think Satan is very excited about how the church has handled largely, not exclusively the division, you know, through the pandemic. And that should, that should be, you know, a huge burden. So those gospel moments,

man, those are, those are huge. They are. Matt, thanks so much for being on the show. I know you got a busy schedule, a lot going on,

a lot of people to go baptize. I'm sure. Not today. It's Wednesday. Not today. All right, dude. Take care, man. Appreciate you. Bless you. Talk to you, sir. Not today. It's Wednesday. Not today. All right, dude. Take care, man. Appreciate you.

Bless you, Tuck, man. you