Theology in the Raw - S9 Ep914: Biblical Counseling, Jesus and Gender, and the Billy Graham Rule: Elyse Fitzpatrick

Episode Date: October 28, 2021

Elyse holds a certificate in biblical counseling from CCEF (San Diego) and an M.A. in Biblical Counseling from Trinity Theological Seminary. She has authored 23 books on daily living and the Christian life including the recently released Worthy: Celebrating the Value of Women and the forthcoming Jesus and Gender. In this conversation, we talk about her (or our) journey into a fuller understanding of grace, along with her perspective on the biblical counseling movement. We then discuss various issues related to women in the church, including the so-called Billy Graham rule. Theology in the Raw Conference - Exiles in Babylon At the Theology in the Raw conference, we will be challenged to think like exiles about race, sexuality, gender, critical race theory, hell, transgender identities, climate change, creation care, American politics, and what it means to love your democratic or republican neighbor as yourself. Different views will be presented. No question is off limits. No political party will be praised. Everyone will be challenged to think. And Jesus will be upheld as supreme. Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out Dr. Sprinkle’s website prestonsprinkle.com Stay Up to Date with the Podcast Twitter | @RawTheology Instagram | @TheologyintheRaw If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. My guest today, Elise Fitzpatrick, has been a friend for a number of years and just a very influential person in my life. If you don't know who Elise is, she holds a certificate in biblical counseling from CCEF in San Diego and an MA in biblical counseling from Trinity Theological Seminary. And she has authored 23 books on daily living in the Christian life. Her most recent book is Worthy, Celebrating the Value of Women. And she has a book coming out that's going to be released next year called Jesus and Gender. The content of both of those books is a lot of what we talk about in this podcast. We talk about her own journey and how she has grown and learned and rethought things and continue to rethink things. This is what I love about Elise is she's a seasoned Christian leader who isn't afraid to kind of rethink what she's always

believed, you know. And the last half of this podcast, we get into a lot of how she has kind of rethought and revisited Christianity and women. And we get into the Billy Graham rule that got really interesting. And I so love the spirit and wisdom of this amazing woman of God. So please welcome to the show for the first time, the my friend, Elise Fitzpatrick. Thanks so much for being on Theology in the Raw for the first time, which is so sad on my part that this is the first time. This should be like the 10th time, but anyway. Thanks, Preston. I'm glad to be with you so I would love to just talk about your journey you've been one that as I've kind of watched and admired over the years that you seem to be more open-minded

the older and wiser you get and you're able to rethink and rethink things. And that's just, I personally, that makes some people nervous, I'm sure. Like for me, I just, it's just such an honorable thing. So can you just give us, just give us an overview of your journey and ministry and theology and teaching and counseling and all these things and writing, you know, a gazillion books. books. Yeah. I didn't get saved until I was 21, which was in 1971. And when I got saved, I immediately enrolled in Bible college because I thought that was what I was supposed to do. And so it's been a learning journey all along. And so 1971 in sort of a charismatic, yeah, local church kind of a situation. I began to be more interested in reform doctrine because I knew, Preston, that when I got saved, it wasn't me. I mean, it wasn't like I was looking for God.

And he said, OK, here I am. He saved me just radically and out of this Southern California debauched lifestyle. So he saved me. And then so I began to sort of think about reform doctrine. And then I was introduced to biblical counseling. to biblical counseling. And at that point, the Christian Counseling and Educational Foundation, CCEF, had offices here in San Diego. So I began to get training in biblical counseling and really from a very distinctly Reformed perspective. And that was where I began to really think about the, you know, doctrines of faith, doctrines of grace, and began to write. I began to write at that point,

which was like very early 90s, maybe, maybe even late 80s, I began to write because there really were no resources at that point for women who wanted to do biblical counseling. It was really a very male genre. So I began to write. The first thing I wrote was Women Helping Women. And then from there, so then I'm progressing along. And I'm in biblical counseling circles. And then I want to say, maybe the early 2000s, I have a group of friends who basically jumped me and said, Elise, you're missing the gospel. And I said, you're insane. I know the gospel. And they said, no, you don't get it. And so then they had me start reading Tim Keller. get it. And so then they had me start reading Tim Keller. And it was at that point with Keller,

I don't even think Keller was published then. He had these massive 200 page workbook things that you could download from Redeemer. So I started to go through that. And then I wanted to write a book on the intersection of justification, which I didn't think I knew anything about, really. And I didn't really know anything about, although it was a word that was being used all the time in Christianity. I don't think I could really have defined it. I wanted to write a book about the intersection of justification and sanctification. So justification being God's work in forgiving all my sins and counting me perfectly righteous. And then sanctification of that sort of slow growth into Christ-likeness. All right. So I wanted to write a book like that. And that was the genesis of the book, Because He Loves Me, how Christ transforms our daily

life or something. I don't know what it's called. You've written too many books. You can't remember all the subtitles. No, listen, Preston, you know, they change the titles. They make up their own titles, right? So whatever it is, I knew, I know it's called because he loves me. All right. And it was there then that I spent maybe a year reading books about the gospel, about God's love for me in Christ, which I'll be honest with you, This is a terrible thing to admit. But I used to think that people who talked about God's love for us in Christ,

they were kind of the pansies of Christianity. You know what I mean? Okay. So like if you're really serious about your Christianity, then you say, oh, yeah, gospel, blah, blah, God's love. Yeah, that's all really great. And then you move on over into all the things that you're supposed to be doing to get your act together. And honestly, that's where I had spent the first decade or couple of decades of my Christianity. Hey, friends, I want to invite you to consider attending the first ever Theology in the Raw Exiles in Babylon conference, March 31st through April 2nd in Boise, Idaho. That's 2022. You can attend in person, which is going to have

its advantages because we're going to have a massive after party on Friday night. You get to hang out with other people, get to know the speakers, get to ask questions live at the conference. If you can't attend in person, you can also attend virtually. All the info is at PrestonSpringgold.com. Space is limited, so you want to sign up soon if you plan on attending in person. Loads of awesome speakers, including Jackie O'Perry, David Platt, Thabiti Anyabwale, Derwin Gray, Ellie Bonilla, Evan Wickham, John Tyson, Greg Cole, Sandy Richter, Kimiko Titi, and many, many, many others. Worship is going to be multi-ethnic. Everything's going to be – we're just going to mix it up.

We're going to talk about race. We're going to talk about sexuality and gender. We're going to talk about hell. We're going to talk about politics and on and on the list goes. So I will see you in Boise either in person or online next year. A couple of decades of my Christianity. Did you, is that, is that intrinsic to the biblical counseling movement? Or let me, let me not say it is, let me back up a little bit.

Okay. For people that don't know when they hear biblical counseling, like that's a specific kind of Christian counseling. That would be in my, from my, cause I was raised in that environment, trained in it. I was into the formula,

you know, I took classes and everything, read J Adams and, you know, um, it's very, very conservative. Like,

um, and yeah, it does. In my impression, the language seemed all great, but it did feel like in back back it did feel like it put a lot just a lot on i don't say behavioral ism as if it was like works righteousness whatever but i in my anecdotal experience it did kind of feel that way looking back now um so that's you were

said that's the environment you were nurtured in and trained in. Would you say this is your unique journey in that, or that that really is kind of the air of your experience with that kind of movement? And correct anything I'm saying about the biblical counseling movement or whatever, you know? Yeah. So I think that, um, biblical counseling for the first couple decades, I want to be gracious. Jay Adams had to fight a war. He was fighting a war. And so when you go out and you're fighting a war in order to establish truth, in order to establish truth that, and people are giving you a lot of pushback,

then you tend to be very cut and dried about things. Because Jay did all of that initial work, then biblical counselors, and there are still some people who, you know, live and breathe Jay, and that's what they think biblical counseling is. Biblical counseling really is a panorama. Okay. So you've got that very, very conservative crowd over here, and then you've got other people. And I, you know, I would put like Christian Counseling Educational Foundation. They're sort of there, but they're, you know, they're more nuanced, I would say. And so part of my journey was to say, okay, yes, and this is the place where the nickel really fell in for me, Preston. I came to understand that there was a difference between the indicatives and the imperatives. Okay. So listen, I grew up in

Southern California. I went to school in Southern California. I couldn't have told you what an indicative was to save my life. But just the difference between the declarations about what God says about us because of the work of Christ and then the obligations, the imperatives, the things that we're called to do because of what Christ has done. And for me, and I think for others, what had been missing in the biblical counseling movement was the emphasis, or more of an emphasis, on the declarations. You're forgiven, you're loved, you're counted perfect, you're adopted, you have an inheritance, all of that, and spending a lot of time with all of that, and then saying, therefore, live this way. Be who you are. And that was a place where I turned that corner. And I think that there is a good number of people who would call themselves biblical counselors, but who are not maybe where I was when I first learned it, or who are not,

would not be part of what they would say would be that very, very right-leaning conservative group. Is that, so what's the relationship between biblical counseling and euthetic counseling? Are those the same thing or is euthetic? Same thing. They're the same thing. Okay. But even that word euthetic, that word is being used primarily by that very, very conservative group now. That's the impression I got.

But there are loads of biblical counselors who don't even use that word. It's it's that word has baggage now. And so. So, you know, there's a lot of people trying to get away from it just because of the baggage. There's a lot of people are trying to get away from it because that word, you know, new static really means confront. You know, neuthetic really means confront. Huh. Yeah. You know, it means to confront people with their sin.

That's the counselor I want to see. Yeah, well, come on over. So, no. That, you know, that word nephetic, I mean, nobody's really even using it very much anymore. But the people who are still think that really the point of counseling, a lot of it is to help you see the ways in which you're failing and to help you grow in your sanctification. Okay. Sorry, I have lots of questions. I'll try to limit it because I really want to get to kind of your current work.

But would all biblical counselors, understanding that this is kind of a spectrum, would they all be against any sort of integration of psychology? Would that be a common thing? Or even that, would some people be more open to that? Oh, no, I don't think that that's the case. Now, again, those people that are very, very conservative, they would say no, no integration. Other people, I was just talking yesterday with Eliza Huey. I don't know if you know her or not. She is, um, she's a biblical counselor and, but she's also a licensed therapist. And, um, so there's numbers of people like that. And, um, I, there's, there's more of a, there's more of an acceptance, a growth that would say, okay, we know that Scripture has answers for how we love God and our neighbor. But we also know that psychology is case-wise.

they see things and they can help us but they don't help us in the sense that uh christians know how to define christians know our anthropology we know how to define uh who we are and and we know who god is and what he requires so um your question is it again there's a group of people over here that would say you're not doing biblical counseling if you're integrating any psychology or any psychological methods at all. And then there's a group over here that would say, oh yeah, there are things we can learn. Like trauma-informed counseling. I had a big eye-opening... Oh, sorry, go ahead. Yeah, just for example, trauma-informed counseling.

I think we can learn from psychologists, people with a lot of case wisdom, how to better counsel people who've been traumatized or abused. Right, right. Yeah, I remember, yeah, so I mean, I was, I guess, nurtured in the strong, neuthetic kind of camp of the biblical counseling movement where any integration was seen as really wrong and bad. And the way they framed it was, you know, we shouldn't blame shift our sin. You know, psychology just kind of makes all excuses. It has a secular worldview, all this stuff.

I'm like, oh, man, yeah, I don't want to touch that with a 10-foot pole. But then I remember a few years later when I was teaching at Cedarville University, very conservative school. Yes. Maybe we just call it, you know, just to the left of masters maybe. Who knows? But they had a strong Christian psychology department. And day one, they were very much like, yeah, we're not newthetic. We do whatever. And I remember thinking, oh my gosh, I thought I was at a Christian school. But I remember talking to the Christian counselors there and they just oozed scripture. Their counseling sessions began with prayer. They'd open up the Bible. They would go

to the Bible. And I was really shocked. I was like, I thought you people didn't even read the Bible. And they were zero excusing sin. It was nothing but integrating psychology to help people understand and get over sin. And it just wasn't at all the picture that was painted. And it was one of my several deconstructing kind of moments in my Christian journey. The classic case of like the very thing that you were taught was super bad and evil. Just when you actually get to know that thing, it's might not be that.

So, um, so yeah, anyway, it, it, so it sounds like that's actually helpful. So when I hear biblical counseling today,

I shouldn't just equate it to new Thetic. That's okay. That's super helpful. Yeah, not at all. And I would even say particularly, and you can find out where people got their training. That would be helpful. Or if they are members of a certain association, what associations are they members of?

Because there are loads of people who are doing biblical counseling who are not there at that other place. Okay. Okay. Well, so let's sum up your last maybe 20 years in your journey. So you had this kind of revolution of understanding grace. My revolution probably came maybe about 12 years ago where it was that, like I knew the lingo, but it just never, like I knew the lingo, but it just never,

it didn't sink in and it was clear in the way I was living or the way I'd view my, my own sin in relation to grace, where it still was very transactional. I don't, I didn't, I don't think I functioned truly believing that 100% of my sin is paid for at the cross. Like I still felt like there was about 10 or 20% that I needed to atone for practically. Even now, you know, I, I bumped my head and I'm like, oh shoot, that's because I, you know, God made me do that because he just needs to keep spanking me every now and then, you know, because Jesus' atonement wasn't enough really, you know? And, and, uh, you know? And a lot of the same people that you encountered, I think,

where I was listening to, I'm like, yeah, man, I feel like the light was not fully on, you know? I would love for you to unpack just how you were thinking through just a really full-orbed understanding of grace. Yeah, so I'm where you're at. I mean, I've written out this point, probably 10 books about the intersection of grace and our daily living. And every day, you know, I, I bumped my head and I say the same thing, you know, well, I should have done my devotions this

morning. Okay. Like that. I mean, I, I, I will say though, Preston, I will say that as I've grown in, as God has enabled me to grow in my understanding of my union with Christ and how everything that he did, um, he did on my behalf. Um, I, I will say that it's getting better and, um,

and, and, and the sort of worry and anger and fear that used to be driven by my, I've got to get my act together. And so do you miss that? That has really been drained away. Take that back. I flatter myself. A lot of that has been drained away. flatter myself. A lot of that has been drained away. So it is transforming me. But I think, and future, has already been forgiven. And all of God's wrath for all of my sin has already been poured out on his head. And that when he looks at me, he counts me as obedient as Christ was for me. And I believe all of that. But sometimes I get this niggling feeling that he's just kind of disappointed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? Yeah. It's just so unbuilt into us. I mean, in even our Christian culture, but even our secular

culture too, like we're, especially the last few years, it's become our secular culture is so graceless. Yeah. We live in a meritocracy. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And, and there's no forgiveness and you know, and if you forgive people, you know, I, I mean the, the whole thing is just so wonky. And yeah, so I just keep trying to press that into my own heart and try then to look at the things that I'm concerned about, the things I see in the culture from the perspective of Jesus Christ has got me, he's going to keep me, and I need to give this freedom to other people. And so that's where I'm at.

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that's where I'm at. Let's fast forward a little bit. We'll fast forward to your current... Yeah. You've been rethinking, can I say? Yes. The role of women in the church. Is that the best way to frame it?

Or do you tell, I don't even know. I don't even, I haven't read your latest book or, um, song. Um, I don't even know where you're at on all these questions, but we'd love to hear your journey. I don't know where I'm at half the time. So it doesn't, I'm a safe voice. Um, okay. So I want to say about four or five years ago, maybe longer at this point, I started to become aware of the fact that I had lived within a structure of white institutional racism that I was completely blind to. I mean, utterly blind to it. I live in Southern California. Actually, I live in Escondido, and Escondido is 80% Latino.

Oh, wow. And it never once occurred to me that I got to live the way I got to live because I am a white married woman in Southern California. Okay. So from there, and as part of that, I began to see, and honestly, Preston, I had seen this for a while, but it never really came home to me, how as a woman in a conservative church, how I had been, how we have been treated. Talked to a woman, was actually interviewing a woman. And I mean, this is a woman with a post-grad theological degree who worked in probably academia.

I can't remember. I'm old. I don't have any memory. And she said that with the man in her department, she was either ignored or objectified. Okay. All right. So then I began this journey of trying to bring freedom and truth and value to women in the conservative church. I've been in a conservative church my entire Christian life. I don't know anything else. And then about that time, I read a blog, was actually a series of tweets that was turned into a blog by Eric Shoemaker on the first things in Scripture that were done by women.

And, you know, it's like the first declaration of the gospel was given to a woman. Fast forward a little bit. The first woman who preached the resurrection, the first person who was commissioned to preach the resurrection was a woman. Okay. So we talked to him, we interviewed him. And I said, you know, you really ought to write a book about this, because it's really good stuff. And he said, yeah, let's. And so we did, we wrote the book Genesis, went all the way to the book of Revelation, and said, these are the women who were integral to redemption's story.

you know, drawing some perspectives from that, but just basically saying, hey, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this. This is how God moved forward, moved redemption forward. And women were a huge part of it. And then, of course, you have to ask, well, of it. And then of course you have to ask, well, why didn't I ever hear that story before? Um, I was talking to a man who's, uh, been a pastor for 40 years and he said he read the book and he wept because he never saw it. Okay. I think a lot of us are doing those kinds of things these days saying, wow, I never saw it. So really wanting to develop a theology of men and women that isn't straightjacketed by the way things once were and just say, okay, actually, what does the Bible say? Instead of saying okay well traditionally it's been this and then Preston I'm sorry I'm going on and on keep going keep going you got the mic yeah and then and then really pushing back against these lies that women are more easily deceived than men.

I mean, how many times have you heard that? I mean, over and over. It's not biblical. It's not true. Women are by nature usurpers. And some translations of Genesis 3 say that, yeah, what women are always trying to usurp the husband's role. Oh, yeah. Okay.

She will lord it over you, that passage? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that, see, that's not a proper translation. Right, yeah. At all. So that, and that women, women are always out for your body. That kind of makes me laugh. I wish.

Sorry. I'm just kidding. Right? I mean, it's like – I should have said that. I'm going to have to edit that out. That was – sorry. Sometimes my mind goes faster than my mouth.

I should have said that. I'm going to have to edit that out. That was – sorry. Sometimes my mind goes faster than my mouth. So like men should never spend any time – pastors should never spend any time with women because Billy Graham rule. Yeah. And see what the Billy Graham – and I understand that. And see what the Billy Graham, and I understand that. But what the Billy Graham rule does is it shuts the door on women who want to have relationship and discussion and fellowship with their brothers. But they can't.

with their brothers, but they can't because, you know, you must never spend any time talking about anything unless your wife is there with another woman. And listen, Preston, I've been around the block. I know enough about how many people have fallen, but I got to say this. I think part of that has to do with this wicked paradigm that women are out to get your bod. Women are seductresses to be avoided. That, I think, along with porn use, really bleeds into what we see when guys fall. Because they're coming at this rather than saying, this woman is my sister. I mean, unless you're really odd, you don't have, let me rephrase that. And unless you're, um, unless you're given to a certain kind of, um, propensity, you don't look at your sister and say,

gosh, I want to hop in bed with her. Yeah. Guys are taught, and a lot of times in seminary, to think about women makes them think that, makes them have those kinds of ideas. Rather than thinking, this is my sister. How can I partner with my sister? And then one more thing and I'll let... I've got so many thoughts. Keep going though. Keep going. Is, you know, in the garden, God said that it wasn't good for the man to be alone. And I want to say this. I don't think that just has to do with marriage. Yeah, no, I agree. I think it has to do with the church. And in most churches, many, let me rephrase that.

In many conservative churches, the pastors, the guys are alone because they look at women as Rachel Green Miller says as throw pillows you know they're nice to have around they decorate nicely they add a little color but they're not really necessary for the mission hmm and see the mission has changed. Whereas the mission in Genesis was be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, have dominion, that now has changed in the New Testament to the Great Commission. Partner together and go forward with the gospel together as brother and sister, which is why in the Old Testament, what you hear about women is how pretty they are and how many children they have, particularly sons. You don't hear about that at all in the New Testament. In the New Testament, Paul and Jesus partnered together with women, co-workers, for the sake of the gospel.

It's changed. I don't think that's seen. This is so good. Let me just ask a couple questions um okay the whole like women are more easily deceived uh and yes that that's the air i breathe growing up in the church i think it is there what do you i forgot the exact wording of first timothy too um it wasn't like for it was a woman who was deceived whatever like how do, because I think that might be the biblical passage from which, well, men and women really, but where they've gotten that idea. How would you explain that passage? I don't think that Paul is, okay, assuming that I have a very conservative perspective on that passage.

Yeah. I don't think that what Paul is saying, all right, women shouldn't teach because they're easily deceived. I think what Paul is saying is these are the facts of what's going on in emphasis at that time, where women were not thinking about themselves as being deceived. Paul's just saying Eve was deceived. He's not saying all women are deceived. See, why would Paul, who in 1 Corinthians 11, who tells women to pray and prophesy, whatever you want to do with that word, but pray and prophesy publicly in church, tells them how to dress when they do that.

Why would he then say, yeah, they're easily deceived? Or why would he tell women to teach other women? If in fact they are easily deceived? They should just not teach anybody. Oh, that's a good point. Wow. And I guess I'm just trying to – I constantly play devil's advocate myself. So I'll try to do so with you to make it interesting.

Well, I don't know. Like because he – Go. Well, I don't know. Like, because he does make kind of a categorical statement about I do not permit a woman to teach. And let's just even assume, I guess, a more egalitarian reading that it's more specific to that Ephesian context. He still is saying the women there, you know, shouldn't teach her because Eve was deceived. It's almost like he's grounding this logic in what, like Eve as kind of the prototype of women.

Yeah. And kind of, I don't know, like it's, it's hard to, I could, I guess I could see where somebody could think that Paul himself, and maybe this is where people say, yeah,

Paul's a misogynist and that's why we shouldn't, but, but I could see where someone would get that logic in Paul's a misogynist and that's why we shouldn't. But I could see where someone would get that logic in Paul's very logic that Paul thinks that women are intrinsically deceived. Even if we do root it in, well, the women of Ephesus might be, you know. But your counterclaim, I mean, yeah, I don't know. Um, there's obvious examples throughout scripture where that's not the case of other women. So, um, okay. So, um,

and again, let me just whisper. I agree with you. I'm just trying to like, no, do it. Yeah, no, it's good. It's good. Do it. Okay. You know, who was teaching in emphasis? Was Priscilla. Okay. So Priscilla and Aquila, and he never, it's not, it's, which is why, and maybe that makes me egalitarian. Let me back the bus up for just one second. I don't want to use that word. I don't want to use the word complementarian. I don't want to use that word. I don't want to use the word complementarian.

I don't want to use the word egalitarian. There's way too much baggage. It's way too much stuff that goes on. Okay. Let me say that, though. I personally think that Paul is addressing a specific situation in Ephesus where women are worshiping the goddess Diana, who is the goddess of fertility, which is why he even talks about you'll be safe through childbirth. Yeah, yeah. Right.

You'll be safe through childbearing. What's he talking about there? I mean, why talk about childbearing as if they're having babies in church or something? Okay? So it's got to have something to do with what's going on there in Ephesus. And Paul tells women to teach. So he can't be saying all women are really easily deceived. If that's what he's saying, then he should never tell them to teach at all, nor should he hold church in the first convert to Christianity in Europe, Lydia's house. Yeah. Okay. So she's in Philippi. If women are really easily

deceived, then Paul really ought to not partner with them. He shouldn't call Euodia and Syntyche his co-laborers. He shouldn't call Phoebe his patron. I mean, that's a huge word in the Roman world. He shouldn't call women those names if he thinks that they're all easily deceived. Now, are women deceivable? the cult of Diana, you've got a specific thing happening where these women who are into that and who think that women were the first created. That's part of the cult of Diana, that women are the first ones who are created, that he's addressing that with these women. Now, that's my personal opinion. Well, it's more than that, though. I mean, that is a scholarly... As far as I understand the passage, there's many scholars who take that view, too. So I think it's more than just your opinion. It's, it's the opinion of many biblical scholars based on historical and biblical research. Um, so even, you know, I, I, I'm constantly trying to hold this tension between maintaining, you know, sex differences and even general behavioral, um, psychological differences,

behavioral um psychological differences generally like statistically speaking between men and women like the studies you know women on average might be more agreeable than men men on average might be more aggressive than women in certain ways but those certainly aren't universal and this is something even strong essentialists like no it's all rooted in biology these differences um even the strongest essentialists who are going to agree with that would still say there's always exceptions i mean men are taller than women on this statistical average doesn't mean every single women is taller than every single man that's just not obviously not true so here's here's where i run into even as i try to say okay convince myself of a more complementary position which is what i was

raised with. And I truly am. I'm kind of on the fence on all this stuff right now because I haven't done the research. But even if I was like, okay, even if – and I'm going to say something. Yeah, do it. Even if there's something biologically built into men that would make them better leaders for whatever reason even if we say that which is really dangerous to say out loud in 2021 that still is not absolute that still is not absolute it may be even if it's 70 or 80 percent of men that there's going to be a 20 or 30 or 40 percent

of women that actually would resonate more with that more masculine whatever whatever so to me it still doesn't make sense even even if you take a very not conservative a very essentialist view of biology it's for 100 not absolute so for paul to rule out absolute every single women who is always everywhere gonna be more deceived more deceived, for instance, than men. That doesn't make sense to me. So that's kind of where I get hung up even with these categories, let alone, you know, is that even what the text is saying, you know. Let me give you a tiny bit of help there, okay? Because I've read enough stuff that basically the very conservative church would say,

well, yeah, women and men are equally created in the image of God, but women and men have different natures. Okay? Yeah. They would say, yeah, men have this leading, protecting, rational nature, and women have this other nature. But I'm going to give you a verse. I'll give you a verse, brother. I just have to caveat that even if they're 100% true, that's still not absolute.

They can even say most men are. That's fine. I think there could be studies to back that up. But you can't say every single man is that way. That's insane. Here's a verse for you. Ready? It's from the Christian Standard Version, which is what I read.

Okay. Hebrews 2.17. Therefore, he, Jesus, had to be made like his brothers and sisters in every way. That he could be a merciful and faithful high priest in matters pertaining to God. Okay. Let that soak for a second. Right? Jesus had the nature.

He had to be made like his brothers and sisters in every way. Listen, Preston, if there is in fact a nature that's different, that Jesus didn't assume, then I can't get saved. Oh, wow. Right? Yeah. Because he has to have my nature. Oh, wow. human who lived and died for me. Therefore, you know, in certain cultures at certain times, are there,

Oh, might you say that there are differences? You know, even if you talk, even if you say, well, men are taller and bigger, but we don't know what it looked like in the garden, do we?

So we're making an assumption that men and women were always different as far as strength to fight in all that business. Okay. I don't like the term. Finish. Please finish. No. No, go ahead. No, I'm not going to be the guy who keeps cutting off the woman. I'm already going to get emails for that. You kept cutting her off and you show how fragile the masculine, you know,

you finish, please. Okay. So, you know, here's the deal. Can, what can we learn from natural law? A lot, but not everything. We don't know what Adam and Eve looked like or how over the thousands of years since they lived, stronger men, whatever, women, we don't know how bodies have changed or even how bodies are changed and different in different cultures. are changed and different in different cultures. So we're looking at 21st century America or Europe, and we're saying, well, yeah, dudes are like this,

and women are like this, and that's why. And God made them that way. I don't know. But then I want to bring you back and say, God made humanity, and he made humanity male and female. One human nature. I have the possibility of menstruating and nurturing a human in my body and giving birth. That shapes me in what I'm aware of, how I am aware of what people are doing around me. See, because I have this propensity to think about others, maybe in ways guys don't. I don't know.

But you and I have the same nature, Preston. If we don't, then Jesus only took a male nature. And if he only took a male nature, then I'm damned forever. Yeah. I mean, in the kind of perspective you were kind of addressing or refuting when they said men and women have different natures, the word nature there is really unhelpful. Yeah. by virtue of our common humanity. And there is no absolute relational, personal, psychological difference between men and women. No, even, well, yeah. I don't want to get too lost in the weeds of all that. But I mean, there's a lot of overlap there. And nothing's really absolute other than our biological sex differences,

which is as much as oriented towards procreation. Let's go to the Billy Graham rule because I really need... And this is one of those again, where I really don't know what I think about it. And let me give you... So I'm just going to wrestle out loud, honestly, would love your counsel here. What you said, I absolutely agree with that a fundamental problem and flaw in Blindspot has been the missed opportunity of men and women ministering to each other. And it's given this perspective, this assumption that women are seductive or they're responsible for male lust or all these just weird things that have been super shameful and dehumanizing towards women um and so i i 100 agree with all that on the flip side i i do see the very real like and again assuming a heterosexual they're both heterosexual, an emotional bond that can and maybe often or

does form that could lead to an unhealthy relationship, which could lead to whatever. And you even mentioned, yeah, there's, I mean, in almost every case where there's been failure, sexual failure among people at the top or leaders or whatever, where did that begin? Typically it began in one-on-one in a room or whatever. And I don't, I'm not saying, I'm not saying, therefore we should reinstitute. I'm just saying like, I don't, how do we not ignore that either?

And from my, so here, let me just be super raw and real with you. Like I, you know, in the work that I do, you know, I hear a lot of stories, just marriages that maybe look good on the outside, but there's so much lacking there. Men and women are both lacking, you know, and I think part of it's the idolatry of marriage and this man or woman is going to fulfill all your stuff. Then when that doesn't happen, then they're disappointed, they're angry at God. And then they start having emotional needs that they need to be met. And, you know, I, is it wrong for me to, even for myself, like to be a little bit cautious meeting somebody else's emotional needs unknowingly in a way that could be unhealthy

for both of us? How do I balance that with, in a sense, I'm getting lost in my words here. How do I, I don't know, how do we balance this? Because again, I agree with everything you're saying with that, but I also see some wisdom in the Billy Graham rule, I think, but maybe I'm totally off there. Uh, I guess there's a couple of things. First of all, I guess it depends on what's going on in the conversation. Okay.

If in the conversation you're meeting emotional needs, your words, I would be a little careful about that. Okay. I mean, I would say if that's what you're doing, that's probably not a good thing. What I'm mostly concerned about with the Billy Graham rule is with pastors who will say, I can't meet with a woman to discuss theology or discuss whatever because I just don't ever meet with women. Oh, okay. Yeah. And that, I mean, I think that there are lots of ways for guys to meet with women. The best way, if a woman would come to you as a pastor and say, hey, I've got this problem in my marriage. I really need some help.

Then you say to her, where are you most comfortable meeting? Okay. You ask that question. And if she says, I'm okay, I'm okay meeting in your office. Or, no, I definitely don't want to meet with you alone. I want, let's, let's go get coffee or something, be outside, you know, in public. Yeah, do that. But you know, this is going to sound kind of hard nose, but I'm just going to say it anyway. And I don't think this of you. If you're the sort of dude that

that really can see yourself getting into an illicit relationship with a woman real easily. Hey, real quick. You cut out for about 10 seconds. You cut out for about 10 seconds. Can you go back to if you're the sort of dude? What you said after was blocked up. Yeah. You know what? I know you can edit this. I think my husband's home now and i think he's on the internet and so i'm gonna ask him um yeah well i i don't know if he's home so let me just okay

hey alexa drop in on pop's office Phil honey if you're on the internet please get off the internet because it's draining the internet a little bit but it's making the stuff break up. Thank you.

Alexa, stop. I don't even remember what I was talking about. Yeah. So if you're the sort of man. Oh, do you, do you talk to your, yes. If you're the sort of man that can really see yourself easily falling into a situation of emotional bonding or sexual sin with a woman, I don't think it's good for you to be in the pastorate. Now, but that, what sort of, is that, isn't any sort of man possibly tempted in that direction or

yes of course yeah but i think that you should know your heart well enough to know okay or to know your heart well enough in times this is not a good time for me to meet with women okay yeah but you don't necessarily have to have a rule that for me to meet with women. Okay. Yeah. But you don't necessarily have to have a rule that says you never meet with women. Right. Right. Okay. It's the hard and fast black and white categorical rule they are opposed to.

So say, say there was, and I'm not going to, I won't use myself as an example, but like say, say there's a pastor who's married. A woman reaches out, wants to meet with them. And let's just say he knew they pastor who's married. A woman reaches out, wants to meet with them.

And let's just say he knew they had a rocky marriage. Let's just say he's got the impression that this woman is attracted to him, not just physically, but just like she really – maybe there's been some kind of possible flirty kind of things. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Is that where he could maybe – and hey, where do you want to meet? Maybe there's been some kind of possible flirty kind of things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is that where he could maybe,

and Hey, where do you want to meet? Oh, I would love to meet in your office. I really want, you know, just, just you alone.

I mean, is, is that, is there a place for him to be a little bit cautious in that without being so arrogant? Like, cause I can hear people even right now listening. Not every woman's after you.

I'm like, I'm not saying that. I'm just saying like, we are still human. We are still following. We still have whatever. And like I, with the,

with the plethora of people in power, any church, non-church that ended up falling in some way. Like, I just don't want to turn a blind eye to that. Yeah. So I think the best thing that you could say to her would be, I'd really love to do that with you. And I'd like you to choose an advocate,

another woman to come with you so that she can help me and help you hear what we're actually saying and frame it like that. Bring an advocate with you. You have a friend. Bring a friend with you. Yeah. So like for me, like I – yeah. I don't have an office.

I mean it's here in my basement. So it's not like I'm having women over in my basement. That's so funny. My wife comes down. I got all these women in my basement, you know, but, um, yeah, I, you know, my wife comes down and all these women in my base, um, but like, yeah, meeting in public and stuff. I mean, that's just, you know, especially I go to conferences, like that's just not, you know, one-on-one meals with somebody who's similar age, whatever. And it's just not a business meeting. it's just kind of you know that i'm a little more i'd rather do that in in groups um but yeah i i if there's any kind of question or any kind of like yeah i'm not 100 sure about this person or even my heart or whatever like then

i'll have my wife come yeah and and it's not because that could be interpreted in an overtly sexist, old-school Billy Grammish way, and it's really not that. I don't know. Again, I just want to affirm I hear everything you're saying. I think there has been a lot of damage done towards women in this really categorical approach in the past. I'm trying not to do that while maintaining some sense of wisdom in this. And it's really hard. I think if you frame, I think it's the way you frame it. If you frame it and say, I'd love to meet with you. And my wife is so good at hearing what people say, and I'm not that great at it. Is it okay if she comes?

I would like her to come along to help me understand. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's good. That's really good. And yeah, the one thing I really want to make sure is I absolutely don't think, even if I did, well, the whole idea that women are intrinsically seductive and it's kind of putting the blame on them for anything that might like that is I think absolutely wrong not that women can't be seductive but they think that that's like oh no it's it's

the women's fault or it's it's no she's gonna woo me in like that's that's yeah yeah and that's the impression that the Billy Graham rule is given, right? I mean, is that in the era, especially you were raised through a lot of that. Yes. Yes. And that is the impression, but that's not just from the Billy Graham era, Preston. It's whenever a woman comes and says, uh, this man, uh, this pastor, uh, groomed me and molested me, abused me. Immediately, people will say, yeah, but it's your fault.

What were you doing in his office? Okay. Okay. Women who have been raped at Christian seminaries who are disciplined because they were studying with a guy. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Okay. So the stories, I mean, I know you've heard a zillion stories, but that's the reason I push against these things as strong as I can to say women are not more easily deceived.

Women are not by nature usurpers any more than men are. Women are not seductresses any more than men are, you know, on the prowl. Yeah. Yeah. There are people like that, but that doesn't mean that we make this statement about all women being that way. That's what I'm 45. When I first got saved at 19, really quickly wanted to go into ministry. And I had a very like flirty personality. And I think a lot of it was – I mean, as a teenager, of course, a lot of it was intentional. But even then, like I – some of it was not intentional. Even when I would just be me and not trying to be flirty, people would interpret it as being – You're friendly.

Yeah, yeah. Yes. And I remember getting... I'll just be totally honest. I remember when I got to Master's College, a year after getting saved, you know. And I'd just come out of the world where it's like, yeah, after work, I would ask a girl like,

hey, do you want to go grab a bite to eat? Sure, let's go grab a bite to eat. And it wasn't always overly interpreted. Well, now I'm at this conservative Christian college where any kind of attention you give to somebody of the opposite sex and rumor gets out, when are you guys getting married? I'm like, what the? And I remember early on after baseball practice once, I was so hungry. Cafeteria's closed. And there was a girl there.

We ended up being friends. I was like, hey, do you want to go grab a bite to eat? I'll buy and I'll go to Chili's or whatever it was. And yeah, the next day, it's like rumors all over the place. I'm dating this girl and when's the wedding? I'm like, oh my God, I was just hungry. And she was cool. It wasn't even... And so early on, I was like, whoa, this Christian culture is kind of weird. And then I kept getting wind of all these youth pastors who were either having sex with youth girls or whatever or hooking up or, and this is what really freaked me out, teenage women who would say stuff that would kind of ruin the reputation of a youth leader, even if there's evidence that it wasn't, it was kind of like she was really into him and was just, and I was like scared to death. So for years I went, I'm talking like Billy Graham rule on

steroids. Like I was just wouldn't even, you know, I was a youth leader, you know, helping out. I didn't even talk to the teenage girls. I just like ignore them i was anywhere i was work working i was so scared of either you know me doing something that would be overly interpreted or somebody else would just make stuff up and i was like i don't want i've seen in my context is leaders falling right and left over this and so i was like i'm going to guard myself from any possible problem here. And I know I went to, I totally went way too far, but that's,

that's kind of the trajectory I was on. And now I'm just trying to think, how can I maintain, you know, wisdom with leaders still falling right and left and men using their power to, yeah. That's always, it's never made sense to me.

Women are the seductive ones. Like no power driven men are the ones who are seducing women. I'm thinking a lot higher percentage, but anyway, that's, that's the background of why I'm really trying to get the right balance here, but it's tough. No, I think you cut out again.

Shoot. Are you there? I think that, yeah, we need to be nuanced. Yeah. Are you there? Yeah, I can hear you now. Sorry. So it's just a nuance.

Yeah. So it's just a nuance and a judgment. Yeah. So it's just a nuance and a judgment. And I mean, but when you hear about the guys who've fallen, generally speaking, this isn't just like a one off. He was having coffee with, you know, it was like patterns of having women in his hotel room, patterns of seeing women at massage parlors, patterns of this stuff going on, not just like, hey, some woman wants to talk to you. So many women that I've talked to, when I talk to them about how they are using their gifts for the Lord, over and over again, I keep hearing them say, so this man really spent time with me talking to me about my gifting or talking to me about theology and really taught me that that's

what I'm, that's what I'm dying for. Yeah, that's good. That's good. I've got some friends who are, um, uh, female academics, right. And in institutions and they say, yeah, it's hard. I mean, it's a couple of friends I could think of are like the only female on the biblical studies faculty or one of two. And like, it's really easy for the guys to hang out and go out for drinks after and this, that.

And it's like, it's just harder for us. Like there's a few of us. There's only one of me or whatever. And like, where do I get my kind of theological camaraderie? And, you know, um, it's just, it's not, not easy, you know, and that's, we need to change that. Yeah. Well, I've taken enough of your time. Uh, tell us about your, um, so you, your, you,

your recent book is, um, uh, worthy and then your, your, your, is it Jesus and Gender book that is not out yet that you're working on? Yes. Yes, it will be out in April. Jesus and Gender Living as Sisters and Brothers in Christ. That'll be out in April. And Worthy Celebrating the Value of Women is already out so i encourage

you guys we have a worthy podcast oh right okay and work is it's called worthy podcaster yes yep okay the worthy book podcast i think or maybe just the worthy podcast awesome so yeah if you guys are interested in checking that out uh you have a website, at least Fitzpatrick.com, right? Or. Correct. Yeah. Okay. So you can check out all those resources. Really excited about your Jesus and gender book. I'm sure that's going to stir things up a bit, which is awesome. As you often do. I realized, I realized I have.

Glee in being an iconic class. I'm not sure it's good. I have for hard to live into glee in being an iconic class I'm not sure it's good well yeah

that's that's a great reputation to have hey I appreciate you thanks so much for being on the show yeah just love

love the work you're doing keep up the great work.