Theology in the Raw - S9 Ep917: Redemptive Kingdom Diversity: Dr. Jarvis J. Williams

Episode Date: November 8, 2021

Jarvis is a friend and an incredible scholar. He has written and spoken extensively on issues related to race, ethnic reconciliation, and the gospel--which is the focus of our conversation.  Jarvis is Associate Professor of New Testament Interpretation at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, where he’s taught since 2013. He has published numerous books, including Christ Redeemed ‘Us’ from the Curse of the Law: A Jewish Martyrological Reading of Galatians 3:13 in the Library of New Testament Studies Monograph Series (T&T Clark, 2019), his commentary on Galatians in the New Covenant Commentary Series (Cascade, 2020), a commentary on Romans (IVP Academic, Submitted and Forthcoming 2021 or 2022), and his most recent book Redemptive Kingdom Diversity: A Biblical Theology of the People of God (Baker Academic, September 2021), which is the focus of our attention in this podcast.  Interested in designing the conference T-shirt for the Theology in the Raw “Exiles in Babylon Conference?” Submit your design to [e-mail] The top 3 designs will get free access to the conference (in person or virtual) and the #1 selected design will get free access to the conference and the afterparty and dinner at my house.  Designs must be submitted to Chris by November 26th. Feel free to use various slogans like “Exiles in Babylon,” “Exiled,” “Theology in the Raw,” “Raw Theology,” or other one-liners like “Allegiance to a kingdom not a political party,” “Jesus is political not partisan” or whatever. Or use no wording at all. Theology in the Raw Conference - Exiles in Babylon At the Theology in the Raw conference, we will be challenged to think like exiles about race, sexuality, gender, critical race theory, hell, transgender identities, climate change, creation care, American politics, and what it means to love your democratic or republican neighbor as yourself. Different views will be presented. No question is off limits. No political party will be praised. Everyone will be challenged to think. And Jesus will be upheld as supreme. Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out Dr. Sprinkle’s website prestonsprinkle.com Stay Up to Date with the Podcast Twitter | @RawTheology Instagram | @TheologyintheRaw If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I'm excited to announce that we're going to have some merch at this year's Theology in the Raw Exiles in Babylon conference. You should know about their conference. If you don't, you can go to pressesprinkle.com, get all the info there. But we are going to not only have merch, but I am asking for you creative types to submit a design for the conference t-shirt. We're going to have one particular t-shirt that's kind of like the conference t-shirt. We're going to have one particular t-shirt that's kind of like the conference t-shirt. And since I don't know how to design a t-shirt,

but many of you do, I'm like, hey, why don't I just reach out to people listening to the podcast who want to submit a design? If you would like to submit a design for the conference t-shirt, all the info is in the show notes. You can submit it to chris at theologyintherod.com. Please submit your designs before

November 26th, okay, just a couple weeks away, if you're listening to this podcast when it comes out. And me and the Theology in the Raw team will pick the top three designs, and then of those top three designs, we'll submit them to my Patreon supporters who will select the final design. They don't even know about that yet, but yeah, Patreon supporters, it's coming. And if you get selected to the top three designs, then you will get free admission to the conference. Okay. Free admission to the conference for the top three designs. And if you are selected as the top design for the conference t-shirt, like if your design becomes a conference t-shirt, then you get free admission to the conference. You get free admission to the after party on Friday night. You also get a free dinner at my house. We're going to have a group of just a small group of

selected people at my house for dinner during the conference. And you will be able to come and hang out with a sprinkle clan and a few selected guests. So again, all the info is in the show notes. As far as the design of the t-shirt, honestly, you can do whatever. It's got to kind of fit the vibe, the theme of the podcast and the conference. So if you want to have, you know, exiles in Babylon or theology in Iraq or just exiles or exiled or whatever, you know, written out on the shirt, that's totally fine. Or it can be, you know, no words at all. I mean, again, whatever you feel like would really fit the vibe of the conference. You can have sayings if you want, again, whatever you feel like would really fit the vibe of the conference. You can have sayings if you want, like understand before you refute or allegiance to a kingdom, not a political party.

Jesus is political, but not partisan or whatever. Things you've heard me say on the podcast. Just have fun with it. I think that's about it. Yeah. And if you want to check out, if you're like, I don't know what you're talking about, dude. Who are you and what is this? And what is this conference? Again, Prestonsprinkle.com has all the info on the conference that's next year here in Boise, March 31st through April 2nd. Okay. My guest is my friend, Dr. Jarvis Williams. Jarvis and I go way back. We got to know each other, gosh, I want to

say about 10 years ago at a theological conference. And he's just, he's just, I just have so much respect for this dude. He is such an incredible biblical scholar. He's written tons of stuff, including a commentary on Galatians. He's got a forthcoming commentary on Romans coming out. He's got loads of books coming out over the next several years. He's written academic books, popular level books. And his latest book is Redemptive Kingdom Diversity, a Biblical Theology of the People of God, which deals with what the Bible has to say about race relations in the church, a topic he's devoted much of his scholarly attention to. Jarvis is Associate Professor of New Testament Interpretation at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary,

where he's taught since 2013, and he's just an all-around wise and humble dude. So yeah, welcome to the podcast, the one and only Dr. Jarvis Williams. Dr. Jarvis Williams, thanks for coming on Theology in a Row. Thanks for having me, brother. Good to see you. Do you remember when we first met? I could picture it in my mind like it was yesterday. Do you remember? I do remember. I think it was ETS 2008 in Providence, Rhode Island. You came, you and I presented a paper in the same session. And you were one of the few kind people who actually showed up to hear my paper.

So I really appreciated that. Well, I remember you asking a question in the back when I gave my paper. And I forgot what the question was, but it had to do with like early jewish literature like pseudepigraph you know the pseudepigraph and apocalyptic literature and like just the nature of question i was just so my heart was so warm that you were in the same literature that i was like at that time especially just absolutely loving and thriving in. And I'm like, dude, this guy gets it. So I think it was on, well, cause you did your dissertation on, on Galatians 3.13, right? The curse. That was one piece of it.

I think I spent a lot of time in the dissertation on Romans 3, but then I published a monograph a few years later on Galatians 3.13. Oh, that wasn't your dissertation. No, no, that was a monograph that I did years after that focused on the monological background in front of which to read Galatians 3.13. And if I remember correctly, I think your paper was actually some of the work that you were doing on divine and human agency in uh 1q 1q 1q h maybe uh this is yeah yeah see scrolls and other stuff in paul yeah yeah yeah yeah that yeah i was just starting that book on divine and human yeah and i think that paper had to do with uh i forget which one maybe maybe it's galatians 3 10

to 14 or something um yeah so kind, man, you've written a ton. I'm looking at your bio and golly, you, and you got several contracts now, right? Aren't you like have several projects that you're through like 2030 or something? Yeah. Yeah. I try to, I try to be productive. I mean, I'm in a fortunate situation too, where I have a, I try to be productive. I'm in a fortunate situation too where I have an environment that encourages faculty to write and gives us the resources that we need to do that. It's a good opportunity. Do all profs at Southern, do you guys every three years or something get some kind of semester-long sabbatical or writing break or something? Or is it not that much? sabbatical or writing break or something or is it not that much? No, the sabbatical is based upon whether you have a book contract. So before you can take a research and writing sabbatical you have to have a book project, a book contract in hand and then there's a timeline that you have to follow before

you can actually apply for sabbatical. So I just finished a research in writing in the spring, but I'm not up for another one for another several years. Okay. Okay. Well, let's dive into the recent book, Redemptive Kingdom Diversity, a biblical theology of the people of God. I've not read it yet. I'm going to guess, because you've done a lot of work already on ethnic reconciliation in the Bible I'm going to guess is this kind of your kind of like

getting there's a term I'm looking for is this kind of summarizing everything you've been thinking through the last couple decades or whatever yeah that's a good question I would describe it this way Is this kind of summarizing everything you've been thinking through the last, I mean, I don't know, a couple decades or whatever? Yeah, that's a good question. I would describe it this way. I think this book is the product of the last several years as I've walked with Jesus and really a product of my whole 25 years of walking with Jesus.

a product of my whole 25 years of walking with Jesus, as I have thought about what it means to be a Christian in the real world with real people, what it means to be a black Christian in the real world with real people, and how in Christ Jesus there's this new identity that I have that shares kinship with those who don't share my ethnic posture, my social posture, so on and so forth. And so I think this book is my way of trying to put together what I see from Genesis to Revelation as a theme that the Bible highlights, namely redemptive kingdom diversity, and how God has worked in Christ Jesus to vertically, horizontally, and cosmically restore Adam and Eve lost in the garden. And then what that practically, what the theology and the Bible, how that applies practically to the current day conversation related to race

and racism and ethnicity regarding the people of God. So I don't want to say this is my last word on this issue, but I don't think, quite frankly, I have anything else to say after this book. I think others will hopefully build upon what I've done, and when we find weaknesses, they'll make corrections, and where they find strengths, they'll use that and build upon them. But I think this is probably my effort to outline with clarity how I understand the Bible to speak into the current conversation related to the people of God and redemptive kingdom diversity. That's what I'm trying to do, I think. Can you give us a summary of, I guess, the point of the book, which you're articulating there.

And in particular, I guess, how does your book fit in conversation with the broader conversations going on about race, ethnicity, especially? I mean, obviously, in the last couple of years, this has become so polarized and volatile. And yeah, I would love for you to speak into that. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, my book is Redemptive Kingdom Diversity, a Biblical Theology of the People of God. So the first thing I'm trying to do is make the argument that from the very foundation of the world, it was God's vision to redeem some from every tongue, tribe, people, and nation, and that it was his vision in Christ Jesus, this Jewish God-man, to restore everything that Adam and Eve lost in the garden. And I argue in the

book that God gives us a promise in Genesis 3.15 that in the midst of this judgment that comes as a result of sin, God curses human beings, He curses the ground, He curses the cosmos, and our relationship with God is broken, our relationship with each other is broken, and our relationship with creation is broken. Creation, to use Paul's language, is groaning cosmically. There's an agony for redemption. And so it's my view in Genesis 3.15 that God promises that in the midst of that judgment, He's going to to paraphrase the verse, crush the seed of the serpent by means of the seed of the woman. I think that seed of the woman ultimately is realized and fulfilled in Jesus Christ. And so there's a vertical redemption,

a horizontal redemption, and a cosmic redemption. Vertically, God's going to make, he's going to restore the relationship that was lost between humanity and God because of Adam's transgression. And horizontally, he's going to restore the relationship with fellow human beings that was broken and lost as a result of sin. And then cosmically, God is going to create a new universe. He's going to restore this world so that it's like Eden, but better. No sin, no fall, no devil, no evil. But ultimately, our destination is to this heavenly city filled with different tongues, tribes, peoples, and nations. That's one piece of the argument. But then another piece of the

argument is that I argue that God's vertical, horizontal, and cosmic redemption has already broken into this present evil age right now by the indwelling presence and power of the Spirit, ways right now by the indwelling presence and power of the Spirit, because God raised Jesus from the dead. And we in Christ are raised from the dead, but we live in a real world where there's still brokenness and beauty, but there's also brokenness. And God gives us the Spirit as an emblem or a signpost of that future cosmic redemption that is yet to come. And as we live on earth as the people of God from different tongue, tribes, peoples, and nations, we are pursuing love of God and love for one another by the power of the Spirit. And that means in part that we are seeking to love our neighbors as ourselves, which means practically that my identity in Jesus, although I'm still an African-American man with a real story and a

real heritage and a specific social location, but I share kinship with you, who is not an African-American man, because we are both in Jesus Christ. And so we need to pursue love for one another. So then I'm taking that biblical theology, and I'm applying it to the current race conversation to deal with issues related to race and racism and the ways in which racism operates and works in both the church and in society to offer what I think is a biblical and theological way forward that is more helpful than some of the ways forward others are offering. And, you know, one final word related to this, I think another thing that is helpful to realize and what I'm trying to do is the book is not about race in that it's not a book about history of racism and all these sorts of things.

I define race and talk about what I mean by that, what racism is and what systemic racism is and all those things. But the book is not a book about race, and the book is not a biblical theology in the popular sense where I'm trying to trace a theme as a unifying theme in the Bible, but it's a book that applies biblical text and the theology from those texts, hence biblical theology, to the current conversation about race and racism. And so my final chapter is about 37 pages where I'm applying this analysis to some specific conversations in the end. Not just to the race conversation, but I'm front-loading in the application the race conversation, but also touch on the issues related to political identity and some other areas related to basic Christian. Man, that sounds exciting you're it sounds exciting first

of all and i mean we've we've talked a lot about this and i think we're on pretty much the same pages um as you're talking it made the the unique feature it seems like i mean i'm sure there's several but by rooting it in creation too it's not just vertical horizontal it's actually cosmic like that that's something i haven't wrapped my mind around um and i'm excited to see how you do that it made me think of just as you're talking it made me think of one of the main arguments in the book of ephesians i mean i i used to think like you know ephesians 2 11 to 22 is kind of like all right here's the ethnic reconciliation passage.

But that's rooted in the whole fullness of God on earth at the end of chapter one, which this in this cosmic story of being you know bringing together an agent of god bringing together jew and gentile but then in one of my favorite passages i'm you're a greek geek so you'll appreciate this but that hinna clause in 310 is one of the most underrated undernoticed yet most powerful statements in the book where i think it connects in greek a one sentence from 3 2 to 3 10 in 3 8 7 and 8 there might be a break i can't remember but the henna clause which is in order that like it's this purpose clause in 310, which is almost giving a climactic conclusion, not just to chapter 3, not just chapter 2, but all the way to chapter 1 when Paul trails off with his prayer, revisits it at the end of 3. In order that the wisdom of God might be broadcasted to the principalities and authorities in the heavenly places. broadcasted to the principalities and authorities in the heavenly places so this in gathering of jew and gentile this ethnic reconciliation accomplished to the cross and resurrection

is to broadcast to i would say the cosmic forces that god won in the sense like this this this satanic attempt at ethnic division was overcome through Jesus Christ. But that summary, I mean, I've heard many sermons on Ephesians or even talks or whatever, and I don't see that thread tugged on nearly as hard enough. But then even more recently, when you get into chapter four, I'm sorry, I'm interviewing myself here. In chapter four, the spirit and unity is not divorced from what's gone on in 1 to 3. There is no such thing. Well, full biblical unity has a multi-ethnic component built in, according to Ephesians 1 to 4, I would think. Correct me or agree with me.

Is that a sound reading of Ephesians? No, that's good. Yeah, that's very good. I think in addition to what you said, I would want to also say related to the book that one of the things I'm arguing in the book is that sin fundamentally fundamentally is a theological issue. And racism, right, is a theological issue. Yeah. Because we have racism fundamentally because of sin. Now, of course, and I say this in the book, that racism is connected to power and structural issues. It's not limited to that, but historically in our context and the American experience especially, it is connected to this idea of racial hierarchy and then racism eventually as our new world and United States begins to emerge, you have racism taking on a life of its

own. So that not only are the powerful racist, but the powerful can likewise be racist. Why? The powerful and the powerless can both be racist. Why? Because sin is both an individual transgression, but it's also a cosmic problem. So when I talk about sin in the book, sin is a, is we are conceived in sin. It's original. We, uh, we commit sins, all of sin and falling short of the glory of God, but sin is also a cosmic power. So then when you're talking about, about the, the structural power of racism,

I argue in the book that that is one of the principalities and powers of the air for which Jesus died and resurrected to disarm. So then one of the things that we will not have in the new heavens and the new earth is structural racism or any form of racism, individual racism or individual or structural racism. Those things will be put to death. But those realities have already begun to be put to death in part now in this present evil age in Christ Jesus as Christians living by the power of the Spirit. Yes, preach the gospel. Yes, teach the gospel. Yes, apply the gospel. But use common grace and common sense in the real world to subvert all things under the righteousness of Jesus Christ in as much as we're able in this present evil age.

And as we do that, we are giving a piece of evidence that Jesus has disarmed, looking at Ephesians 3.10 now, he has disarmed these rulers and authorities, earthly and demonic rulers and authorities, right? Not just earthly rulers, but earthly and demonic rulers. And so related to this issue, it's important for your audience as well to recognize my book is not about the multi-ethnic church. I am pro multi-ethnic church. I'm from a multi-ethnic family. I'm one of the pastors of a multi-ethnic church in an urban context. But my book makes the argument that mono-ethnic churches, mono-ethnic churches that have no opportunities to be multi-ethnic can still lean into this redemptive kingdom diversity because it's grounded in the image of God, in my argument, and it's grounded

in the wrath-bearing death of Jesus and his victorious resurrection from the dead, and it's grounded in the fact that God has disarmed the principalities and powers of the air through the death and resurrection of Jesus. So then, redemptive kingdom diversity in this Ephesians 2 and 3 application is not only for those who can work it out in multi-ethnic context. It's for all Christians from every tongues, tribes, peoples, and nations, even in mono-ethnic context, they are invited into this narrative of living out God's vertical, horizontal, and cosmic redemption in the real world with real people as a loud sermon to the devil and to the demons and to the world. Jesus is Lord. He reigns.

And the people of God are inviting as many people who want to enter into this story, into the story through Jesus, to participate in this transformed, redemptive community, the centerpiece of which is Jesus, and the foundation of which is his wrath-bearing death and his victorious resurrection from the dead. And so I'm trying to say that in the book. the dead. And so I'm trying to say that in the book. You said it, man. So curious, because you would, I'm thinking out loud here, I can think of my question. You would expect that cosmic reality to be manifested practically in multi-ethnic individual churches, except where it's not, I't say not possible but if you're not living in an ethnically diverse area then you wouldn't expect that ethically diverse church would put it positively

whatever ethnic diversity exists in your church context you would expect to be reflected on some level in the church but like i live in i live in whitehaw right i mean it's 92 caucasian and even there the minimal diversity we have is very you know you know um living in certain areas with it within the state and even the city so most most churches do reflect that and it's just it's it's hard to get around that is that is that what you saying? Like, mono-ethnic churches are still participating in the spiritual warfare, and they don't necessarily have to reflect multi-ethnicity in the individual congregation if that's not in the neighborhood they're in? Is that what you're saying? That's part of what I'm saying. I have a section in the book called

Multi-Ethnic Churches and the People of God, and in which I essentially say what you just outlined, that churches that are in multi-ethnic context and that have the opportunities to be multi-ethnic should pursue that with joy. For those churches, redemptive kingdom diversity will have a diversity of skin colors in the congregation. But then I also want to encourage mono-ethnic churches who are not in spaces where they can have a diversity of skin colors to know that redemptive kingdom diversity is for them too, it's just going to look differently in their context, and they need to be creative to think about how they can participate in this grand redemptive vision. That might mean praying for, partnering with churches with whom they don't share the same ethnic postures. That might mean

seeking to serve in areas of Christian ministry where they can use their resources to help bless congregations or to help reach out to others who don't share their ethnic posture. But in addition to that, I also make this point, and this is a point that is important, that when we think about ethnic diversity, we often mean diversity that is apparent based on skin color. But I would argue that ethnicity is much bigger than that. So that ethnicity, so you can have people who are part of the same skin complexion that have different ethnicities. So, for example, I'm an African American with a multi-ethnic heritage, and I have friends who are Black, but they're not African American. So I'm Black, and I am African

American, but I have friends who are Black Latino or Black Haitian, And that's ethnic diversity. Similarly, when we talk about white image bearers, we often make the category of white flat, and we ignore the fact that within that flat category of white, by flat I mean people essentially group white people into one category and ignore the fact that people who are categorized as white might have a variety of different or do have a variety of different ethnic backgrounds. Some might be Italian, some might be German or pick an ethnicity. So one of the things I'm saying in the book is that if you are in a situation where you can't have diversity that is apparent because of skin color, you still have opportunities to live redemptive kingdom diversity in your social location in ways that bring the power of the gospel to bear on society by loving God and loving neighbor and seeking,

yes, to see people, one, to Jesus by faith, but also seeking to love people well, who might reject your faith. Because kingdom diversity is about living redemptively because kingdom diversity is about living redemptively in your context, wherever you are. And that might mean living with people from different skin colors. That might mean living with people from the same skin colors redemptively, but living redemptively with those who are similar to you or not similar as you are because of what God has done for us vertically, horizontally, and cosmically in Jesus. So when you look at you and you look at me, we obviously are ethnically different because of our skin tone.

But in Christ Jesus, I need to be living redemptively with those who might share my ethnic posture, but with whom I don't naturally have anything in common. Yeah. I love that distinction between ethnicity and race. I think sometimes we collapse those together. Yeah, but that's, would you, so race, that is more of a, I mean, modern construct anyway, right? Whereas ethnicity has always been around i guess since the tower um race though is that is that true i mean that's what i keep hearing and learning from other people who have done research here i mean the very con the very concept of organizing people based on

simply skin color like that is a much more modern thing. Is that true? Yeah, yeah. If I can just keep going back to the book, one of the things I say in chapter one of the book is I start in the garden. Well, in the introduction, I define my category, state my thesis, and these sorts of things. But in chapter 1, I start in the garden, in Genesis chapters 1 and 2, to make the argument that the only race the Bible talks about is the human race. And the concept of race is a word that speaks to these human beings, Adam and Eve, whom God created in His very own image in the Bible. And when we think about the different tongues and tribes and peoples and nations that flow out of the offspring of Adam and Eve and out of the offspring of Noah, that's more like ethnicity than what we mean by ethnicity than what we mean when we talk about

race. You're right, and I say this in the book, although it is true that in the ancient world, the concept of, I'll say it this way, the concept of otherizing people based on categories of inferiority or superiority. That was kind of operating in some ways in antiquity. At least some scholars have made that argument. But you're right. The word race that we use in the American context, starting in the colonies and on into the U.S., is a fairly new thing because that word was created, was constructed in a context of racial hierarchy and seeking to make superior and inferior distinctions within the human race and prioritizing one group of people, namely those who were

categorized as white, over the enslaved African. And so then the word race in our narrative is not a good word. It has always been, in my understanding, or in my view, it has always been in the colonial experience and then in the American experience. I know that I'm using that language generally because we know that colonial and that's a very complex reality. But the basic point I'm making is that the word race was a word of dehumanization to show that there is a racial hierarchy within the human race. And then that word and that concept in our context takes on a life of its own so that historically, quite often, when we talk about race and racism, it focuses on the black-white

divide because of the historical origins of that concept in our country, the slavery and connected to the Reconstruction era and connected to Jim Crow and its aftermath. But as I argue in the book, that although racism does not look the same in every context, racism takes on a life of its own in different contexts, so that you have black racism, you have brown racism, you have Asian racism, you have white racism. And we're talking about a specific thing when we're talking about these different kinds of racism. And they're not all to be understood in the same way, but racism is evil and racism nevertheless. Regardless of the ethnic group from which it comes, it just doesn't operate the same way in those groups, if that makes sense. So then in the historical narrative,

the creation or the invention of race as a category is connected to this idea of structural power as well as to individual animosity. But racism doesn't stop at the structural level, in my view, because of the universal power of sin. As I said earlier, the powerless can also be racist because it's a sin issue. They just can't be racist in the same way as the powerful. So since you mentioned, I would really love to dive into, you know, the structural aspect. So, I mean, in the race conversation today, and here I'm thinking both inside the church and outside the church, you know, there would be people who would say, no, racism is nothing but individual acts of racism or individual racists. Other people would be on the other side of no racism as a concept is only or primarily systemic, structural. I hear you saying that it's a both and, and that biblically,

regardless of whether, and I would actually love to get your take on this in a second, but regardless of whether systemic racism is a problem in America today, that category has theological, um, possibilities that the Bible does talk about things like racism. It does talk about structural principalities of powers and authorities and like the whole idea of systemic racism or or just systemic sin, is a biblical category. Is that everything I'm saying? Am I capturing what you're saying as well? Yeah. And as you know, the word or the phrase systemic racism is an explosive word that means

a lot of different things to different people. But let me just say, to answer your question, the idea of structural sin is rooted in the biblical story. I mean, just take Rome, for example. The Roman Empire was a structural power that was, humanly speaking, humanly speaking, right, responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus. Now, of course, God predestined Jesus to die and Jesus willingly came. But the point is, is that an evil empire was a means by which that God used to execute Jesus and to accomplish atonement and salvation for our sins. Jesus and to accomplish atonement and salvation for our sins. And so when I end the book, I have a section where I talk a little bit about, very briefly about systemic racism. And really the only point I'm making is that by systemic racism, what I'm saying is that those overt laws, those

overt intentional laws of the past and those structures in the past that were created for the purpose of dehumanizing, especially blacks and other people of color at a particular time in our history, even though the laws change, effects of some of those laws and the detriment that they call still affects certain black communities and communities of color today. And one example that I give is the issue of redlining, which is very complex. We don't have time to work it out here, but in the in the book I just make the point that at a particular time in history there were intentional efforts to keep blacks from having the ability to transfer wealth from one generation to the next. And blacks were kept from having access to certain loans to buy homes and those sorts of things. And as a result, those communities were affected in terms of their education, in terms of their health, in terms of other issues. And even though the laws

changed and Blacks who were in those communities were able to eventually maybe find their way into a better situation, some of those communities still exist today and the effects of those laws of the past still impact those communities today, even though those folks who are born in those communities are in situations that are no fault of their own, if that makes sense. That's not, and just to clarify this point here, that does not deny the importance of personal responsibility. We are all responsible for every decision that we make. And furthermore, one of the great things that we learn from reading about Blacks and others, whites as well, anyone who has had to overcome,

and others, whites as well, anyone who has had to overcome, one of the things we learned is that people are able to overcome difficult circumstances in spite of the odds that are placed against them. And so one of the great stories and lessons we learned, I think, from history is that in spite of overt systemic racism in the past, there were blacks even in those days who were still able to flourish and experience a life of flourishing. But that doesn't change the fact that there are still real realities that exist in certain black communities and communities of color because of these systemic laws of the past that have their residue still impacting the present, even though the laws have changed to provide, say, to provide an opportunity for equality as it relates to housing. That's super. Yeah, you're super. I love you're so careful with your words and specific.

Sorry to cut you off, though. You keep going. No, I was going to say, you know, another reality related to that is, is that, you know, there are, and I say this quite often, I am a privileged black man. I have a middle, I'm a middle class black man with a PhD. And so my son has opportunities at his fingertips that others would not have. And so he's in a situation where he has access and opportunity. And I'm the benefit of some of the, I mean, I've worked hard, certainly, but I had a lot of folks, black, white, brown, male and female, who have helped me along the way.

And then on the other hand, there are poor whites in my hometown of rural eastern Kentucky who have a lot more disadvantages than my son has because they are poor in a rural community. So the reason I bring that up is to say, when I talk about systemic racism, as I've just outlined and articulated for you, my point is not that the deck is stacked against all black people everywhere. And I do not argue that blacks don't have personal agency. It's quite the contrary. Everybody has personal agency. It's just certain people are in a certain set of

circumstances that make their ability to choose more difficult, but we're still responsible for the choices we make. And even though we're at personal agency, and even though with opportunities and with access, people can, and with God's help, I want to emphasize God's help, people can overcome. That doesn't change the fact that there are still systemic realities that exist precisely because of racism and the way in which it works. And we need to take that seriously. Right.

Oh, man, you're so thoughtful and balanced. I guess for me, the race conversation, I really tried to. Just listen to a wide array of different voices, engage conversations because it's so it's so important and it's it can be, I think, really complex. And when people make it such a binary, you're on this camp or that camp rather than really a whole wide wide multilayered spectrum of different questions and issues that collide. A lot of these things I think are not an either or. I love how you say, yeah, personal agency, absolutely. That doesn't deny the fact that systemic racism or even the leftover after effects of systemic racism don't play some some role maybe a big role you know i think of you know a classic example might be you know

somebody who was born into a let's just say a super just abusive home i mean say their mom had boyfriends in and out i mean alcohol drugs whatever maybe the kid was physically maybe even sexually abused like and when he's in elementary school and he beats up somebody or cusses out a teacher or you know smokes weed behind the whatever like he's responsible for those actions but we cannot deny that there were certain environmental things that certainly shaped nudged fostered nurtured those decisions that he's ultimately responsible for but to to just say it's either all his environment or no it's all him to blame he's an individual agent i think it's it can't it's got to be somewhere in the middle right i mean it has to be um and and i like when you said it also makes sense

that rather than make a categorical statement here i i'm gonna be super careful here like even things like yeah systemic racism toward people of color or white privilege with people who are white it's still and i'm i'm thinking out loud here it makes sense to me to say in certain circumstances those things very much could be true does my whiteness bring me privilege in probably many contexts yeah if i'm applying for an english position at cal state berkeley maybe not like i don't know if, you know, a humanities department is secular institution and others places. Yeah, absolutely. I walk around Boise.

I don't even think about the fact that I'm white or somebody was of color. They're part of the 8%, you know, and it might, that might be a really different experience. And, um, and is that fair? I'm going to stop because I don't want to say something stupid I regret. But is that is that in your opinion, is that when you think about these broad categories of systemic injustice, white privilege, broad categories based on race, that it's better to think of that in more specific context? These categories may be more true than in other contexts. these categories may be more true than in other contexts. Yes, it's very true.

This is another issue that I touch on a little bit in the book and conclusion. One of the things I say is that we can all, I think we can all agree that at a particular point in history in this country that there were clear benefits that you had as a result of being a white person. Absolutely, yeah. I don't hear anybody denying that, like pre-1970, 100%, without a doubt. Correct. Yeah. So the concept that one part of our country's story has been, our story is a beautiful story, but it's also a story of struggle, other people of color were dehumanized. Now, I think it's accurate to say that in certain contexts, in certain parts of our current reality, that some of those benefits could still be a reality for people who are white.

I think, of course, this is debated and folks would disagree, but there are not all disparities can be attached to racism. Right. I think it is incorrect to say that if you have a disparity in a community of color, it's necessarily because of racism. I think it's also fair to say that some disparities in certain contexts would be connected at some level to racism. I think it's also fair to say that some disparities in certain contexts would be connected at some level to racism. I just think, again, going back to the example I gave earlier, that people who are born into communities that were isolated and created in ways that they are created because there was an intentional effort to keep blacks from having opportunities to flourish.

And kids who were born into those communities that still exist in those contexts, I would say that racism plays a role in those disadvantages. Even though there are not people necessarily who are intentionally trying to hurt Black people in those spaces, that decisions that were made in the past will affect the realities in those spaces. Now, in addition to that, one of the things I say in the book is that this doesn't mean that whites have an innumerable amount of privileges just because they're white. I think that would be an absolute misrepresentation of the reality.

As I said earlier, there are poor whites in eastern Kentucky who will always be in poverty. who will always be in poverty. And unless God supernaturally intervenes and provides an opportunity, that the chances of them being able to get out of poverty are highly unlikely. And they're not in poverty because they're white. But my point is they're in poverty, and they are white. But I'm a middle class black man. I grew up in that same social setting. I grew up in Eastern Kentucky. I didn't have access to, my family loved me and provided for me, but we weren't wealthy. I'm a survivor of, I'm a descendant of Jim Crow survivors.

My family was born in a Jim Crow and they worked hard. And I didn't have financial privileges. But what I did have was I had access to people who loved me, cared for me, who gave me opportunities. My home church, for example, especially in my family also. and my home church was a predominantly white church. I was the first African American to join that church. They helped me tremendously. My family helped me tremendously, and they gave me the opportunity to be in a situation where I have access to privileges, and my son has access to privileges that I did not have, and poor whites do not have, who are growing up in Eastern Kentucky. So I think you're onto something in what you just said.

I think that we need to consider these questions in a kind of case by case situation and ask ourselves, is this true about this situation as opposed to sort of speaking in a monolithic way? This is a very complex conversation. bring brothers and sisters who are of goodwill from a variety of ethnic postures together to recognize the realities of the past, to lament the racism of the past, but to reject this idea of shaming people because of the color of their skin, regardless of the color of their skin, and let's together, in the power of the Spirit spirit because of what God has done for us in Jesus

let's think of ways that we can go forward to help brothers and sisters of diverse ethnicities flourish yeah that's a message of hope that's super helpful and clear I love your what are your thoughts on the the modern anti-racism movement with like ibram kendi and tanahasi coates and others um beverly d'angelo and um and then critical race theory we got at least i gotta get your thoughts on this um and because mean, obviously this is a lot of what you're saying. Somebody could, I think very wrongly just, Oh, he's, he's a, he's a critical race theorist or whatever. I just, I think that term just thrown around so much. I don't know why they would say that. I just hear people slap that label on whatever they don't like.

But, um, yeah, your thoughts on kind of some of the more modern anti-racist literature and critical race theory. Have you wrestled? I mean, I'm assuming you've dabbled at least, so I don't – at the very least, if not. Here's the way I would answer your question. I think if someone were to read my book, and I would encourage your audience, actually read the book. Don't take the intro and give up. Don't just see the long three-page footnote where I'm defining my categories. Don't just jump to the conclusion, but read the whole book. I think it's very clear that I'm putting forward a very different vision from what's outlined in some of the authors

that you've mentioned. So that there are things that can be learned from the social sciences, certainly. There are things that can be learned from the sciences. But I argue in the book that as a comprehensive way of understanding the world, that those things are a dead end. And that what I'm putting forward is a redemptive vision. And I think my view, my book is a book that is in many ways different, many ways different from some of the things the author, many of the things the authors that you mentioned are arguing. Because it's not only pointing out that my book is pointing out there is a problem and the problem is fundamentally sin and how sin operates. But it's also different because it grounds the solution in the image of God and the wrath bearing

Jesus and his victorious resurrection from the dead. But then it's also different because it is offering redemption and hope. And it's also different because my book is making the argument that racism is real in wherever there is sin in any community, there's the potential for racism to exist. And my book also makes the point that racism is not—I'm going to borrow a phrase from another New Testament scholar who interviewed I said earlier, it doesn't look the same, but it's there nevertheless. So Blacks can be racist, and it's not just something that whites can do or not something that Asians can do, but it's also conducted as structural realities. So I think there are numerous things about my book that I'm doing that are different from some of the other works that are out there in the social sciences. Because I'm, here's the deal, I'm a New Testament scholar. I'm not a social scientist, right? I'm seeking to think

exegetically and theologically, wanting to learn where I can learn from others in other disciplines and other fields, wanting to acknowledge where there's a truth that they see that is accurate, but recognizing that fundamentally my program is about what God has outlined for us in Scripture and seeking how to work that out practically. And that in Jesus Christ, we have the ultimate provision and solution to this flight that we're in. That's good. I'm curious. You swim in pretty conservative circles, professor at Southern. Your understanding of race, is that pretty typical in your environment?

Or do you feel like you're challenging people to think a little bit differently about it? Or does it just depend on who you're talking to? that the conversation about race is a conversation in any evangelical context that is a complex and messy conversation. And there are those who are in, I think, evangelicalism. I'm saying evangelicalism because I'm an evangelical in the healthy sense of the term, and I believe in a personal conversion experience and penal substitution and the resurrection of Jesus from the dead and errancy and authority and all those things, the physical return of Jesus Christ to earth from heaven. That's what I mean when I talk about evangelical orthodox Trinitarianism and all those good things. I think the conversation about race is complex. And I think there are those who want to shut that conversation down.

They're out there in evangelicalism. I think there are others, though, who are of goodwill, and we might not agree on all the nuance, or we might not agree on how to work this out practically in our churches, but we can all agree that we can do better as Christians than what we're doing now, I think. And what we're doing now is really just, I think, damaging the body of Christ by not loving each other well. And I think there are brothers and sisters. Let me say it this way. I think there are many brothers and sisters out there of diverse ethnicities in the Christian community of goodwill who want to do what God wants them to do.

Love God, love neighbor, but they just don't know what that means biblically and theologically. And I'm trying to help folks to think about that. I think there are a lot more people who are there than who would be resistant to wanting to love God and love neighbor. Those voices are there. Those voices are there and those voices are loud. Yeah. But my point is, is that I really believe that there are a lot of brothers and sisters of goodwill. White brothers and sisters, black brothers and sisters, brown brothers and sisters, Asian brothers and sisters, and in every other ethnicity that genuinely want to love one another well as it

relates to this conversation. And they genuinely don't know how to do it. And they're nervous and they're anxious. And I'm not claiming, by the way, I want to just clarify something. I'm not claiming to have all the answers, because I don't. I'm learning. I'm a sinner. Just because I'm black doesn't mean I'm qualified. It doesn't mean I'm an expert on race. I'm not an expert on race. That's not my area. I'm a Pauline scholar. But I am a Christian who is a black man, who is married to an Hispanic woman, who is in a multi-ethnic church, who does live in a real world, and who does teach at a white evangelical school,

when I'm trying to work these things out in a way that's redemptive, and I'm trying to put forth the vision, I think, in the book that is seeking to bring brothers and sisters together around Jesus, around God's Word, and let's go forward and do it in a way that is consistent with scripture, common sense, common grace, but also our social location. And I think, going back to your original question, I think there are brothers and sisters out there who want that. But I think for those of us who want that, it is a challenge. it is a challenge. And I think there's a lot of fear and just in politicalization or political lenses that Christians are to a fault operating through, especially the last couple of years. It's like even something like systemic racism, you know, four or five years ago, that could be a

really interesting discussion that most Christians would be happy to have to explore. What does the Bible say? What do we mean by this? You know, let's wrestle with it. But now, because if somebody is on the political, in this case, political right, if they hear something like systemic racism, they've heard from, I don't know, Ben Shapiro or Tucker Carlson or whoever. Like I shouldn't even use names because I, you know, but like they might hear, oh, that's a left wing thing. That's bad. That's whatever. And they immediately kind of operate out of fear rather than engaging a conversation around this topic from a through a biblical lens they they are already kind of three steps in the wrong direction because they have been told that it's you know good or bad based on their kind of political outlet and i think it happens on both both sides um and this is why i so appreciate about your work is it's so

richly and primarily and fundamentally theological and i just that's where i just wish in the race conversation more and more evangelicals would set aside some of the broader cultural categories and concerns and tribalism and battle and let's just look at what the bible and gospel says about something that's not on the fringe of the biblical storyline and that's that might be the number one thing i love about your work with you know the bits that i've read is just just you do show how these themes and categories are interwoven into the main thread of the storyline of the gospel. That's something that hopefully any Christian who says they believe the Bible can at least say, OK, we can start here. This is a fundamental biblical set of categories that we need to wrestle with because God is, God's the one

who authored it. I'm preaching to the choir. No, it's fascinating that you're, some of the things you're saying, man, you're touching on themes in my, in my conclusion. I'm amazed that you haven't read it because you're talking about a lot of things that I'm getting on. And one of the things that you just said that I touch on in the book is that, you know, my book is going to make people from many different postures uncomfortable and encouraged. And what I mean by that is the book is not tribalistic at all. Yeah. And what I mean by that is the book is not tribalistic at all. There are places in the book where there are people who would be encouraged that might be in one place ethnically and another place, say, politically, for example, and then there are others who, in that same posture, other places where they would be challenged. And so this book is, those who are wanting a tribalistic book that preaches to their base, that's not what this book is. This book is truly trying, as best as I can in my fallenness, and I'm not claiming to have done it perfectly,

but I'm trying to present an argument that moves us as Christians who believe in the authority of Scripture forward together in the power of the Spirit in spite of our ethnic and political diversity. Let's go forward in a healthy way with the Scriptures and the cross and the resurrection and the image of God as what guides us. And I think that there are people who will be moved along, who are wanting, as I said earlier, wanting to do this of goodwill. But those who are committed to being tribalistic, you know, I hope they read the book. I want them to read the book. But I don't think those people are going to be really one to what I'm saying, even though it's full.

I have a 14 and a half page scripture index. 14 and a half pages scripture index. That's not surprising, Jarvis, at all. That's not shocking. And the reason I bring that up is because there are those who love the Bible who still won't be convinced that this is something the Scripture is outlining even though the book is a biblical theology. I pray that the Lord would use it in their lives as well. But at the end of the day, the book is, I hope, will make many people encouraged and challenge many people as well who read it,

and that those folks would realize that they can live out redemptive kingdom diversity in a way that is faithful to the gospel, faithful to the Word of God, faithful to their theological convictions, faithful to the image of God, and that will bring glory to His name, and they don't have to give in to those voices on the left or those voices on the right, but they can give in to what Jesus is outlining, what God is outlining in His Word, and seek to work this out in the power of the Spirit with as many diverse people of God, ethnically speaking, that they can until they die. And I pray God would just, brother, I pray God would just breathe on this in some small way and allow the church to benefit from it and bring a redemptive vision to homes and churches and

communities and Christian institutions and organizations in a way that glorifies Jesus Christ and exalts his name forever. That's my hope, bro. Gosh. The book is Redemptive Kingdom Diversity of Biblical Theology that People of God put out by Baker Academic. It came out a little over a month ago.

I would highly, highly encourage you guys to check it out. Also, go to Jarvis's page. You have a faculty page at sbts.edu. Well, just Google Jarvis Williams. It'll take you there. And you'll see a number of other books that Jarvis has written. And also, I'm looking right now at your page. You have a couple of YouTube interviews. You have your email on here. So people can email you or they can reach out to you at Twitter on your Twitter account there. So Jarvis, thanks so much for being on the podcast. And man, I hope that this, you know, by you being on here, you know, several people will pick up your book, go through it, check it out, pass it on to others because, yeah, I haven't read it yet. Again, I confess I'm going to get into it soon, but I know you and love you, brother,

and just everything you're saying is so wise and seasoned and careful and nuanced and humble. I just so appreciate your humility. So thanks for being on the podcast. Thank you, brother. So good to see you. Hey friends, if you've been blessed, challenged, encouraged, or angered by this podcast, would you consider supporting it through patreon.com? That's patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw, all the infos in the show notes. You can support the show for as little

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