Theology in the Raw - S9 Ep918: When a Trans Couple both Transition Back to their Natal Sex: Cameron and Jess

Episode Date: November 11, 2021

Cameron reached out to me a few weeks ago thanking me for my ministry and he told me a bit of his story. He’s a male to female back to male formerly trans-identified SSA Christian who has been a pastor/chaplain, and he’s married to a female to male back to female formerly trans-identified bisexual Christian. Let’s just say, I was beyond curious to hear more! This podcast episode is me “hearing more!” Interested in designing the conference T-shirt for the Theology in the Raw “Exiles in Babylon Conference?” Submit your design to [e-mail] The top 3 designs will get free access to the conference (in person or virtual) and the #1 selected design will get free access to the conference and the afterparty and dinner at my house.  Designs must be submitted to Chris by November 26th. Feel free to use various slogans like “Exiles in Babylon,” “Exiled,” “Theology in the Raw,” “Raw Theology,” or other one-liners like “Allegiance to a kingdom not a political party,” “Jesus is political not partisan” or whatever. Or use no wording at all. Theology in the Raw Conference - Exiles in Babylon At the Theology in the Raw conference, we will be challenged to think like exiles about race, sexuality, gender, critical race theory, hell, transgender identities, climate change, creation care, American politics, and what it means to love your democratic or republican neighbor as yourself. Different views will be presented. No question is off limits. No political party will be praised. Everyone will be challenged to think. And Jesus will be upheld as supreme. Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out Dr. Sprinkle’s website prestonsprinkle.com Stay Up to Date with the Podcast Twitter | @RawTheology Instagram | @TheologyintheRaw If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. As I mentioned in the last podcast, I am looking for you creative types who are coming to the Theology in the Raw conference next spring to submit a design for the conference t-shirt. All the info is in the previous podcast if you want to hear me explain more about what we're looking for, but you can submit your designs to chris at theologynerod.com. That's C-H-R-I-S at theologynerod.com. Submit your designs by November 26th, and we will have a final selection of the design by early December. If you make it to the top three designs for the conference t-shirt, then you will get free access to the conference here in Boise next year. And if your design is selected as the final design,

then you get access to the conference, get access to the after party on Friday night, and also get access to my home where we're going to have a meal together with a few other invited guests. So again, all the info is in the show notes. If you want info on the conference, the theology in the raw exiles and Bible on Conference, go to PrestonSprinkle.com. All right. My guests, guests plural today are Cameron and Jess. I don't know Cameron and Jess apart from an email exchange in this podcast. So yeah, Cameron reached out to me a few weeks ago, thanking me for my ministry and told me a bit of a story. He is a male to female, back to male, formerly trans identified, same sex attracted Christian, who has been a pastor

and a chaplain. And he's married to a female to male, back to female, formerly trans identified bisexual Christian. So yeah, let's just say I was beyond curious to hear more about their journey. And they, turns out they are just a delightful couple. And I had such a wonderful conversation with both Cameron and Jess. So welcome to the show for of Theology in the Raw. I'm here with two, I'm just going to say new friends. We just barely met, but we met a few weeks ago via email. So Cameron and Jess, thanks so much for being on the podcast. Thank you.

Why don't we start? And I don't, you guys can handle this however you want, whoever wants to start or if you want to just kind of go back and forth, just tell us your story. Tell us who you are because it's a rather unique journey, I think, to have been on. I think you two have been on? I think for me, the journey begins when I was younger. As a child, my family was very faith-based and my mom is actually a pastor. But when I was a child, I was molested for several years by two cousins, a guy and a girl. And that led to just like years of questioning and that kind of thing. The dynamic for me was I had a Samuel experience. And so I heard the voice of the Lord when I was very young and knew that I was called to lead, but not like all the other pastors in a church setting. And the Lord was just like, I love you.

I love you. And I always want you know, everything. I always knew that the Lord loved me no matter what, you know. And growing up in the church is like a very taboo thing. We don't talk about sexuality or gender. And I always have always been a very soft guy. Very soft in nature. Very thin, small frame. Not macho, not hyper masculine.

And that I didn't know how to express my lack of masculinity like everyone else. I didn't know how to express that through the person that I was. And so it was very difficult. person that I was and so it was very difficult um still ended up going to ministry school um got ordained and still questioning um actually got married to a guy um and uh just recently divorced actually um and all of this like was over the past 10 years of just, like, rapid, like, intensity of, like, identity, just, like, overload of, like, I just gave up. I was like, I prayed, God, you didn't answer. Like, everyone has been praying this, like, take this away prayer. I don't want to be gay. I don't want to be this. I was like, that just isn't working for me. And I can't just turn off my feelings and my thoughts because it's just not how that works.

And so for me, I just got in with the crowd. You know, LGB is very loving. Everyone knows the motto, you know, love is love, right? love is love right um and that community is so very much self-loving and self like protecting when you're family it's very much family when you're like wrapped in that group and so with that came the getting their customs and getting you know what this is what this looks good on you and that looks great on you and um i found myself like in this process of discovery, of trying to discover myself, I was losing more of who I was as a person and kind of being swayed this and that way because it fit. If it's stuck, then that means it fits, right? If it sticks, then it fits, which is not, it's not truth.

But I didn't understand that because I didn't have a revelation of who I was. And I had been praying for that for years, and I never got it, and I don't necessarily think it was that I wasn't praying for it. I think it was I wasn't praying and asking the right questions, and so I, you know, stayed in, guys, and I was, you know, I was a modern day Rahab. I was a whore. That's just truth. And at the same time, I still had this love for God.

So like, how do I reconcile that? Real quick, Cameron, it seems clear, you know, your sexuality, you were attracted to guys. When you say identity, were you wrestling with like gender dysphoria or even like gender identity questions as well on top of that? Yeah. Yeah. All on top of that. And I think for me, it didn't, I didn't start transitioning until like 2013. I just left my first boyfriend and, you know got into like you know looking flawless you know so i gotta wear makeup because i gotta look good right and then i got into the clothes

like oh well i can't fit normal guy clothes so i can just wear girl clothes and we're going to the club so like gotta throw on some heels and, you know, jazzed up. And it just became one thing after another until the past couple years. A couple years ago, I was on hormones. And, like, I was completely identified as a female. And I was comfortable. Like, I am very much a powerhouse person, powerhouse personality. And the thing that was, the thing that everyone always questioned especially in the church because i never stopped going to church never stopped doing ministry i

mean i did after a couple years ago probably eight i was really burned in a church and i hadn't quite made the decision to jump off the cliff as far as like transitioning um but i did once that church like hurt me um and a another leader um in a prayer ministry we were just we just believed in the power of prayer and like again still wrestling with this identity and gender and sexuality but i still recognize that God is real and has been involved in my life. And so flash forward, like I'm on hormones and I am living my best life as a woman, successful with business, company, job, and I'm happy. But like at the back of my head, I'm like, I really don't think I should be doing these hormones. It was a little small voice. And I just shunned it out thinking that was just, like, my freaking out mode of, like, I'm doing something really different.

And it was, I felt good. I was happy. I looked in the mirror and I looked happy. I looked in the mirror and I looked happy. But it was just like something just slightly off, just enough to notice on the inside. But I was good. You know, I looked the way I wanted to look. I finally fit into this frame that I and I could have a body now that looks like the way I can express myself as a person and I met this dog groomer who and I'm walking in and you know sunglasses on

on the phone you know that little rude little rude person looking fabulous though I was on a phone call so i could not be interrupted and um i met jess and was like in the back of my mind i'm like pretending to like i'm still on the phone call but i'm like not really listening to the phone call i'm like looking at this hot smoking at the time was a dude and I'm like wow what a hunk and so we start talking and Jess wasn't wasn't it wasn't a Christian at the time and I was like

well we gotta fix this cuz I'm a pastor and i can't be dating a not christian i am this is jess i yeah i actually grew up in a very like religious church of christ household southern tennessee uh sunday church once or twice a day wednesday night church so like two or three times a week kind of deal. And I struggled with faith for quite a while when I was a child, like even five to 13 years old. Just never really feeling like I fit in, feeling a little out of place. I've always been maybe a little awkward, you know, going with dogs and cats as friends versus like children my age. Because I was a little awkward, tomboy growing up.

But I think I got baptized in the Church of Christ when I was 12 or 13. But by the time I was 14 or 15 is when I just kind of ran away from the church, denounced my religion. I was identifying as a lesbian in high school, but dressing very masculine. I think I was probably 22, maybe 23 when I started taking testosterone. And then I didn't stop taking testosterone until October of last year. I'm 30 now. Wow. Okay. So I was on it for a while.

I had a thick red beard. I was very confident in myself. I was happy living as a man. Yeah. But meeting Cameron, something stirred in me to stop trying to, like, because I went through many different religions just trying to search for, like, a peace, really. I was searching for peace, everything from Wiccan to Buddhism to Hinduism, just always searching and never quite feeling at rest but when I met Cameron something stirred in me and I started out by just logging in online to watch this church that somehow captivated his at the time

attention so I was like well if this person is so interested and gung ho about it then I want to find out what it's like well if this person is so interested and gung-ho about it then I I want to find out what it's about so go into that what church

what church is it is it a church we'd recognize or no I don't know it's the Belonging Co they're here in Nashville oh I know

the Belonging yeah yeah they have a big online too yeah yeah they didn't ever preach that you know being a lesbian or being

trans they never preached that that was not a sin but they always preached of love and acceptance and it's really not our place to judge so just hearing those truths and still feeling loved, that's a big deal for me. Real quick, I would just get clarity. This is, I'll probably have lots of questions that I'm trying to like grab a hold of one. So Cameron, when you first meet Jess, you were, I mean, a trans woman.

Yeah. And, but you were also a pastor, a trans woman. Yeah. But you were also a pastor at that time still? Yeah. At what kind of church? Can you explain that to me a little bit? So I did not, I had been serving in different churches. I had held the chaplaincy at a rehab center for five years now. But this is the funny part.

I would strip myself as neutral as possible gender wise to not draw attention to that. Because I knew that it would be a conflict to the people group. And it's an elderly rehab center in the south yeah so yeah okay um but it was you know the the person that over the i guess how the elder um of that center um he actually used to chaplain for uh 25 years and passed the baton to me when he met me and some questions were brought to him but he was like he even said he's like you're anointed and you're called and where by as i may not agree with everything that you're doing i will still defend that the truth is in your heart and it

will come out and he was like you know he's like i love you and i'm gonna keep shepherding you um because i never preached anything against the bible um but even when i've been questioned with that in the past i always declared that you know i believe the bible is inerrant and it's truth and until the revelation of what it is that is my life isn't lining up with that area yeah highlighted to me and when that is happens i will change but until that happens i'm gonna remain where i'm at as on my journey so i want to go thank you for that clarification i just it's fascinating um uh jess so um you said you were happy living as as a guy i guy up until a year or so ago. What was it about meeting Cameron or just in your own heart that led to a shift for you to want to, I guess, detransition back to female?

Well, there was one specific night. there was one specific night um but leading up to it we had had some just in passing comments to each other of we would love each other no matter what we presented as or what we were doing in our lives we would still love and identify with each other but there was honestly just one specific night where overnight we were just dead asleep and then then maybe around 2 or 3 a.m. we both woke up. And it was just on our hearts. Like the Lord had spoken to us. And it was just like a piece of we're going to stop taking our hormones. And just kind of accept ourselves as we were before, but different because we've also, of course,

had many life experiences that have always changed us for the better. But it was literally an overnight experience. So, I mean, it's kind of one of those just unmediated encounters with God. I've heard other people share similar stories where it's like there really was no thing. It wasn't like this profound dissatisfaction with transitioning or whatever. It was really just the movement of God in our...

Did you, I guess this goes for both of you, I'll start with Jess. Did you have like severe gender dysphoria growing up and did transitioning take that away and now detransitioning, did it come back or can you talk to us through that now um Cameron I would love to hear from you as well so I definitely struggled with like self-image self-love actually I had a loathing for myself and like the female body that

I was given just never feeling comfortable not wanting clothes to even like touch me like anxiety and depression that i went through as like high school and like even middle school and my early 20s it was crippling honestly it was um and dressing as a man that gave me a confidence that i didn't know was possible and in the detransition or we've been saying re-transition okay we can't go back to what we were but we're you know something new that god has shown us but as the woman i am now it it has been hard like changing wardrobe and like trying to find my femininity again because i i cut that off and severed it so long ago. It's definitely been a journey that hasn't always been easy.

But I still have peace in my heart about it. Is the dysphoria just as intense now as it was 10 years ago or whatever? Or is it less? It's definitely less. I think it's different more so than anything i i'm dealing with some opposite actually because being on hormones for six or seven years like my voice has forever changed and i i go through like a double mastectomy it's like removing my everything uh so it's like i want to feel comfortable in this female body but the things i've done in my past too i've kind of put up a barrier so just trying to navigate that i think

has been difficult or yet i think is is different now i don't want to say better or worse, but it's different. And I do think easier and better because I have God and Jesus to turn to now. And I can actually feel it in my heart for the first time in my life. And I wonder, I mean, being with Cameron, it's got to be, I mean, again, I don't know you, either of you more than the half hour ago, but

like to have somebody else so close to you that knows very much what you're going through, you know, like that's, that's got to, and both of you centered in your life on Jesus. And obviously there's challenges, but that I can imagine, I would guess that that's got to be pretty comforting and helpful too. I honestly know in my heart that if the Lord hadn't brought Cameron and I together in our lives at that point in our lives, I wouldn't be where I am now. Oh, yeah. If Cameron hadn't been in the position he was in before and I hadn't been in my position, we would have just been two ships passing in the night.

Yeah. You know? Wow. Because I used to, there have been moments where it been moments was like oh if only i had met cameron before i transitioned then you know i could have skipped all that you know uncomfortable uh life experiences it took those experiences bringing me where i am now that's the journey god had you on right yeah you can always look back and almost want a different journey but you wouldn't be who you're exactly yeah I mean each each journey's there for a reason thank you both for your honesty and just yeah it's it's yeah thank you for just being so vulnerable

um yeah Cameron how about you with the dysphoria question like was it intense before did it go away after transitioning and now re-transitioning? What's it been like? So since I was young, I've always, like, always wanted to, like, be in my mom's heels and, you know, prance around. And, like, I didn't like sports. And so, like, I didn't want to be or do all the typical, like, guy things. or do all the typical like guy things like and then with being molested for years like I didn't really want to be around guys because I was uncomfortable and still trying to grapple with the fact that like something has happened it doesn't it doesn't feel right but it happened so now you know my awareness is sparked in a whole nother area and so like yeah play with

lipstick I would sneak off and go do that and it was comfortable it was fun putting on long shirts My awareness is sparked in a whole other area. And so, yeah, I played with lipstick. I would sneak off and go do that. And it was comfortable. It was fun. Putting on long shirts so that they were past my thighs. Like, oh, this is a dress. I look great. I'm hot.

I feel so happy with this. And not that I am a very superficial person, but image is a huge cornerstone of me as a person from what I'm wearing to the way my hair looks to everything. And so it made it easier to express. Like I get to, you know, I think I was talking to my mom not long ago. It's like, you know, it's when I was younger, the things I gravitated to, I remember distinctively, like in kindergarten. The thing I liked the most was playing with blocks and the kitchen. I loved the kitchen set. And little nuances of my personality was mistaken, I feel like, and manipulated by the enemy into confusing me.

Because you're a kid. Like, I wasn't thinking like, oh, I should be a girl. But the certain conversations that were thrown and passed made me think in question. And well, if I don't look like you, so I must be this way. I have to be this way because I relate more to you. And so years of that, you know, for my whole life of just you know I'm a woman I don't know how I'm gonna figure this out how I'm gonna fix this and you know just realizing like oh there's you know makeup can only go so far and so can't you know squeeze it into clothes and you

know another thing is you know common is taping you, taping parts of my body to fix, you know, what I don't want to be what I want to be. And, you know, when I met Jess, I hadn't been on hormones. I had started because Jess told me how easy it was. Actually helped that process start off. And I was nervous when I first met Jess because I was like, this is a trans person and I don't think that they're going to accept me because I haven't publicly identified yet, even though like you meet me and I looked like a woman. And I told Jess my story and my heart and I was like, I really think I want to do this. And Jess took me to get the hormones.

And I got them. And I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm really doing it now. Like, I'm 100%. This is it. And my body was, like, reshaping so fast. And, like, I just felt so complete. I was like, I met the person of my life. Like, I love them so much.

Like, we're doing our thing. And we started going to church. like I love them so much like we're doing our thing and we started going to church and like the anxiety of keeping up constantly as to not be blocked is the term to not be blocked very is very intense you know granted my circle had watched me transition for almost a decade it was the new people that I didn't want to know. And like, I've been going to the belonging for since 2017, 2016. So this years, I'm hearing the same message preached. Nothing has changed. Everyone is loved.

God has a path for you, a journey for you. You need to tap into it when he shows you obediently walk in that direction. They preached the same thing that I've been talking about and reading my whole life. And like that October 5th night was like, you know, if anyone that's been in church or in worship in a worship session or something, and you feel that tangible presence of the Holy Spirit. It was thick. We like woke up like somebody rose us out of a coffin. Wow. I remember distinctly dreaming about us having the conversation when I opened my eyes

and we looked at each other and you just felt this intense room filled with love. And it was just this, like, vivid realization of who we were, how God's seen us and has always seen us. And it was just this, it's okay. It is okay. It was not I'm mad or I'm angry. Just look at this. And it was like, we looked at each other. I was like, you know, Jess, I was like, do you know what I'm thinking? And she was like, yes.

And I was like, do you want to say it? And she was like, no. I was like, all right, I guess I'm really leading here, the family. And I was like, God wants us to follow this image that he's showing us of who we are and like the next day like we're cleaning out wardrobe and that was hard for me because like I had a 15 20 000 wardrobe give all these things away but we did we did i couldn't fit them we you know we i gave away things that you know um to other people who are trans who are just starting their journey and just like they knew us they still know us you know and they still love us a lot of the community still knows who we are we're

still very close friends um and pillars and church community and lgb community and have people reach out that were trans we've known each other for a long time good friends the thing was is we don't understand but the thing that was said was you've always been the same with message of love and accepting people where they're at and we don't understand but we love you and so we wanted to still be a part of your life and when we went to alex and henry our pastors like i was nervous one because i was like they're gonna think we were frauds going to church one way and then changing and looking like completely different people and And the one thing my pastor, Pastor Alex, said is, and I'll never forget it because it was like the most like mama thing a person could say with Pastor Henry standing right

there, was, we've been praying for you too. And we haven't known who you were for years, but we've been praying for you. And she's like, here you here you are you know you've done this and it's just like we are going to a church that loves people where they're at and that really the doors aren't shut for anyone that's so good real quick so how long were you guys together um as a trans couple um because was it a few years or no no i want to say like eight to ten months oh and then you had your kind of encounter or and then both started okay okay yeah and wait when did when did you get married or are you married so we're in queue um i had to get the divorce final yeah tennessee is not fun with legal work okay okay yeah um we're actually scheduled to uh

scheduled we're actually on route to get married in november um. Yeah, next month. Congratulations. Thank you. It's been a rush for us, just like the changing. On top of all the changing, we got pregnant in December of last year, which is medically impossible

just because of the hormones that was in our body. I had stuff going on too it's like oh i can't get pregnant that's you know i'd probably have to get treatments to help because of past uh medical as well as the hormones after so many years so i was like maybe in the future we can adopt but yeah i didn't think i thought, I've heard after about two years of hormones, well, maybe it's in most cases you're infertile after that. But there are even some men, some trans men that never stop taking testosterone, but then they get pregnant and then they have a baby as a man. And that does happen.

Right. as a man and that does happen right um i didn't think it'd be possible for me because of um like my cervix and like all that issues i had prior transition and then i just didn't think it was possible yeah for me because it was actually hard for my mother to get pregnant as well so like okay medical history family history and everything i've gone through i was like no there's there's no way but i did have a family with cameron actually only a few months after i had met him her at the time was like i want to have children with this person wow so and if i if i i just i i ask questions as they come to my head and if I, if I, I just, I, I ask questions as they come to my head and if I word things or if I'm too invasive or whatever, you guys sound like you're pretty open. I mean, you're, you're, you are, were both, I mean, same sex attracted. Is that right?

And now you're both in an opposite. I mean, it is much as you want to talk. I mean, how has this, your your sexuality's been how have you thought through that in in your turf you're just unique relational journey when i was younger i identified as lesbian and then by and then i was a straight man then a bisexual man then a gay man then a bisexual man i've been a little all over the board um so I think I've always just loved who I was attracted to. So I think it was always just very fluid. Like, whatever the person is, they have the right qualities.

Okay. That was not the same for me. I pretended to be straight, which I will joke at sometimes. But I very much like identified as gay because I didn't really, like, really even understand the concept of like where I was going in my sexuality at all. And only like have ever dated guys. I mean, with the sprinkles of a few fake relationships with girls. Um, but when I met,

um, Jess, like I didn't think too much apart too much on the trans part. Um, I was, I was, I saw a hot person and I was incredibly attracted to them. And,

you know, when it came to like you know the sexuality the sexual part if you will um that just kind of worked itself out I guess it wasn't really a focus um but I mean it was just this for the first time in my whole life like I've had butterflies but sparks had never and our knees just touched on that first day on our first date and it was just like the world stopped like and it was just like this completed like thing and the thing that was always confusing to me is like just the journeys that we've had and then like I think we're just like just like what

could we have just avoided all of this like confusion and searching and lost and like pain and heartache and and it's just like but it has made us who we are today you know and like i i would not be where i'm at you know if it wasn't for Jess. And it's not been that long, but it feels like we've been together for decades. Wow. You mentioned a couple of times, Cameron, that, I mean, your past. I wasn't, I mean, when you emailed me, I wasn't aware of that part of your story. I can't imagine what it would take to heal from being abused as a child like that. Can you speak to that? I mean, you mentioned it very freely.

How have you processed that, healed from it? I mean, is it something you never quite heal from? or it's been years at a time of you know i guess receiving healing with this part of it healing with this part of it healing with that part of it yeah i think um and totally i do forgive you know those two individuals um but I don't want a relationship with them, and I don't really want anything to do with them. As far as where I'm at now, Whereas, you know, where I'm at now, I feel free from thinking about that. It's something I can't talk about openly because it has happened. And I refuse to, like, be bound by that. interaction with sex it caused me to you know want to just be mischievous if you will just kind of find like searching to find the one person I click with like why is there no intense feeling

like I feel passion but passion is different than a bond and a connection and I you know it was frustrating to just person after person. Like it was like going through like reusable, reusable pencils or something like just this doesn't work. This one doesn't work. This one doesn't work. This one doesn't work. Like when I will find the right person and like it sucked because I always was left empty inside and so when I did meet Jess it was like when we when we started we started re-transitioning if you will um I talked to Jess and I was like look there's moments where I'm present in our intimacy and there is just moments where I'm just not here and that is an after effect of just having so much sex with so many random people.

I don't know how to be present and, you know, feel like I'm not here. Like, I just feel like a device. Use me. And I just cried my heart out. And we had several, you know, we've actually met with some pastors at our church, and we call them, like, liberty sessions, where we just let the Holy Spirit guide us into whatever He wants to show us about ourselves and to freedom. And it was really intense.

It was, like, the longest several hours of my life with Chaz. And we got to really, you know, even deeper, like, understand, like, where some of these hurts have come from, where some of these past have come from where some of these past pains you know happened and um it has helped me to now better communicate everything that i'm feeling that it's okay that this is my safe place um because for the first time there's you know i've always looked at my heart it's like i've always let people in so far and for the first time like there's this person who walks right into the center of my heart where jesus lives you know and you get to know everything about me because you'll never use it against me and you'll always have arms loving open and for the first time like this is this is what it is to find a person who loves you like God. And it's been amazing.

Wow. Wow. Gosh. That's unbelievable. I mean, that you would be able to forgive people that did that. I mean, obviously that's very clear in Scripture. Forgiveness is never, you know, not an option or never an option. It's always something that is just part of the Christian life. But, I mean, easier said than done, right? I mean, that's, that's, wow. That's crazy. Um, I'm sorry. I'm, I'm, that's, I know a lot of people listening, the percentages are really staggering how many people have gone through, um, something like that. And, and, and really sometimes haven't

even worked through it or even admit it, or just it's been buried so deep down. It just hasn't been dealt with. So your words, I'm sure, are encouraging to a lot of people. I would love to talk about the church. How can the church reach trans people? people. I heard you say, well, you said a couple of times that the church, you know, they just, they did preach love. And it was that sense of, I feel like this church loves me. And that's what kind of drew me in. Maybe expand on that or just give advice to, you know, I talk to pastors all the time. I mean, just a couple of days ago, I was at a church preaching on trans-related questions

and stuff and really emphasizing this point that it's the kindness of God that leads to repentance, that we can have a view on these things and we should. We should follow what the Bible says about it. I think our male and female identities are important to God. But man, if we're not being excessively loving and kind and just really desiring, not just being open to reaching trans people, but actually desire, like we want,

like the more the better, the more, you know. And that's challenging for some pastors, like, well, I don't know. And there's always that tension of like, you know, if we love too much, we're going to sacrifice our convictions or whatever. Anyway, this is the world I live in trying to help pastors navigate this. We'd love to hear either of your thoughts, both of your thoughts really on what advice would you give the pastors who are trying to truly embody Jesus to trans people? Well, it's definitely not easy because you don't want to give up your convictions or anything. But one thing I think is important for us to remember is that God does say all sins are seen equal in His eyes.

And we all struggle with some kind of sin. I do think remaining loving and open like with your arms and your doors, not shying people away. It's not our place to pass judgment. I don't know who's going to heaven or going to hell. We know what the Bible says, and that's something we should always be clear about. But remaining in Christ and working on your journey and listening to the Holy Spirit, I think is the main thing that we need to focus on.

And listening to the Holy Spirit, I think, is the main thing that we need to focus on. But also, it's just, it's a big deal when you go to a church and you don't feel loved. That's just going to push people away and push people farther into their darkness. into their darkness. I think my experience, like I mentioned before, being in the Southern church, it's very, I am brimstone,

they're all going to hell kind of deal. And in my opinion, we don't know who's going to heaven or hell. We know that Jesus is the way to heaven. But focusing more on accepting them and showing, like, this is what the Bible says, but also knowing that the Bible also says to love everyone.

I think that's going to be a big part. And we may not see the revelation in their life you know that could come after that person is out of your life even so don't just accept someone into your life and be like okay now I'm waiting you know just waiting for that revelation

when you're going to change that you may not see it but you can pray for them in your quiet place too to find truth and peace in jesus and like the revelation of the holy spirit because that's the only way that anyone's going to find change that will mean anything but that's a great point you may not see it right away you may never see it but if there's been a a you know a seed seed planted or, you know, just that encounter with love can, maybe even the person isn't, I mean, I remember, you know, there's, God does so many amazing

things. Like, like they may not even receive that well at the moment or even care about it, but they could be years later where they'll think back and say, wow, that, you know, like God can kind of do anything with that kind of encounter. Cameron, we'd love to hear, Pastor Cameron, love to hear your thoughts as both, you know, somebody receiving ministry from others, but also somebody who's been on the other side of ministry, you know, the pastoral side. I have always felt like specific, like to, you know put into my call you know like that's that's a high it's a high honor to lead god's people right and you know the word says that we're gonna we're gonna be judged doubly one because of the role that we carry you're a mouthpiece for heaven and so when you speak something wrong and you lead masses to to hell or away from Jesus, you're responsible for that.

And so that was always the deconstruct for me is how do I preach the gospel without tainting it with my own confusion that I'm personally going through in real time? Well, this is what the word says. I may not even agree with some of the stuff I'm talking about but I know it's true because I met the person I've met him

he's met me you know and so one day my reckoning and rolling around will have some type of openness he always will reveal something at some point in time I think for the pastors of today and to the ecclesia, the church

at large, you know, stop looking at people's lifestyles as a thing you have to change. It is not your job. Your job is to teach the Word of God and to make it practically happen within your communities and allow the Holy Spirit to move. The way someone lives their life is no different from any other person living. And anything that keeps you, anything that is an obstacle that is in between you and God is a sin. Period. Period. That doesn't matter what it is. Whether it's gossiping, whether it's you in bed with so-and-so, or wrestling, if it's against the design of God's,

the will of God for your life, and it is an obstacle keeping you from Jesus, that is sin, period. And we need Jesus. And to reach people means you just love them. It's not a hard concept to just love someone where they're at, respecting them where they're at. You know, I was never shunned. And I'm not saying that, you know, the belonging is not perfect. No churches and our pastors would happily say that. But what they are doing that I really appreciate and is why I've been going there before I got my revelation and why I will continue going there now that we have our revelation of who we are is because there's a real change happening within lots of people there, you know, with going. And so that's just my biggest grappling. It always has been, especially from on the inside, looking on the outside,

looking on the outside, looking in. It's stop loving with just your words and love with your heart, because that's where Jesus is looking. And, you know, with us, we don't look at someone who's not living in the perfect design that God has for them, looking at them like you're a sinner. You're going to burn. the perfect design that God has for them, like looking at them,

like you're a sinner, you're going to burn. No, because you know, the Lord showed me is it's never been about the sin. His focus isn't on our sin. It's focused on your part. The first response when Adam and Eve took the bite of that apple was Adam, what have you done?

But where are you signaling that you are far and I want you close so I can show you more revelation. And when we, that's like, that's the whole precipice of any time I look at anything or ministry or whatever. It's not what have you done so much? Yeah, he knows what Adam did. He's not, God is all knowing. It's where are you going? Come close so I can show you the

truth because you're rolling around in these lies and all this you know pomp and circumstance around your headspace and it's like when we when we don't as pastors preach that message you're pushing people farther away to figure things out on their own and we're not meant to figure out things on our own we're meant to figure out things with God our Creator because he is the one that has all the answers and he may not show us everything at once he may take years it may take a long time but as long as you step into the yes and amen to Jesus and as he shows you things and you're obedient because that's another thing that is like for us is

it's if we hadn't been obedient on that October 5th night and we had said no we're not going to do that what was on the other side the next day might have broken us trying to live after seeing that revelation because it was truth that was revealed to us

and you can't unsee truth. Not about yourself. Not when he shows it to you. And so that's my. My cry is. This is a new thing. You know our church has even said. This is new.

We're all in this together. But as God talks. We walk. Yeah that's so good you you mentioned earlier too i'm curious about that you said you still have a relationship with a lot of lgbt people the lgbt community because i've heard i mean i've heard other friends of mine who when they do well detransition or retransition sometimes their lgbt friends or maybe the more their t friends see that as kind of a threat almost or like like they're turning their back on the community but you guys didn't really experience that is that is that right or has there been any kind of like

a feeling like you you're betraying the community by living this next journey or i have had some distance and some friendships but it wasn't my deep transition i think it was finding my walk with jesus again that kind of and then just because as they don't wish me any ill will or anything like that it's just that we're focused on different things you know i'm not necessarily going to the bars and clubs I used to at one time. I think from my experience with those friends, it was just different scenes so distance naturally grew. But other friends that we have we still see on birthdays on a semi-regular

basis given COVID restrictions and everything. I think, yeah. What is their perspective? What's their perspective of the church? Like when they hear you became Christians, are they like, what comes in their mind when they're like, oh my gosh, like what's going on here? Well, I mean, all of my circles of people have always known,

like I'm a Christian that's not going to change I just kind of tagged along with everyone enjoyed my fair share of everything um everyone's at the place of you know they understand more so um they are not so not so much understand but respect where we are in our decision we do not condemn any of our friends we told them we love you all just as much as we did before and you know we invite our friends to church you know because we know that the message isn't being preached you need to change the message is being preached there's a god that loves you and come get to know him so he can show you some things and you know they they just I mean we still have one we still have wine nights we still you know they came to our baby's

baby shower you know like they're part of our world and we told them you're you're not going anywhere we're not going anywhere and you know whether you know there's it's not so much an agreeing or a disagreeing. I just want every one of our friends to know Jesus. The rest of the work, whatever happens after that, that's between them and him. But our job, we feel, is just to lead our friends to Christ. The rest of the work is on him, as it has always been. Wow.

Well, we're coming up on an hour here. I can't thank you enough for your time and your vulnerability, your honesty and your wisdom. Yeah, thanks so much for reaching out. I was so blown away when I got your email. I'm like, I really need to talk to this couple. So thanks for being willing to talk online here.

Hopefully the recording, I know we had some glitches at the beginning and yeah, I hope the recording where it should work out fine, but I'm excited for the people to hear your stories as well. So yeah, thanks for coming on the show. I really appreciate it. Absolutely.

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