Theology in the Raw - S9 Ep926: Christ and Queer Marriage: Aaron and Liz Munson

Episode Date: December 9, 2021

Aaron is gay and so is Liz. They’ve been married for over 15 years and have had an interesting journey. Both are solid Jesus followers and have done a fantastic job helping the church engage LGBTQ related issues with truth and grace. In this podcast conversation, Liz and Aaron share their story and talk about what it’s like being in a queer marriage--a term they prefer over “mixed orientation marriage,” since their orientations aren’t really mixed.  Links talked about on todays show https://revoice.us/community-groups/ https://indyoasis.org Sponsor links ivpress.com/TITR Upcoming Events Theology in the Raw Conference - Exiles in Babylon At the Theology in the Raw conference, we will be challenged to think like exiles about race, sexuality, gender, critical race theory, hell, transgender identities, climate change, creation care, American politics, and what it means to love your democratic or republican neighbor as yourself. Different views will be presented. No question is off limits. No political party will be praised. Everyone will be challenged to think. And Jesus will be upheld as supreme. Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out Dr. Sprinkle’s website prestonsprinkle.com Stay Up to Date with the Podcast Twitter | @RawTheology Instagram | @TheologyintheRaw If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. This episode is sponsored by the InterVarsity Press Book Drop. The IVP Book Drop is a monthly book club perfect for readers who want to grow spiritually and hear from a diverse range of voices addressing today's most important cultural topics. Okay, so for like 10 bucks a month, you get one book sent to you every month, and that includes shipping. They start you off with Esau Macaulay's best-selling book, Reading While Black. And then

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know if they'll even register, but you can go to patreon.com forward slash TheologyNara to support the show for as little as five bucks a month, get access to premium content. The TheologyNara Exiles in Babylon conference is filling up. So if you want to attend a conference March 31st through April 2nd, if you want to attend it in person, then sign up ASAP. Spots are filling up. We're also going to live stream the conference, so that won't fill up. There's unlimited number of live stream options, I believe. I think that shouldn't be a problem. So check it out at PrestonSprinkle.com for more information. My guests today are new friends of mine. I've known about them from a distance, but have only recently had some conversations with them. And they are an absolute, absolute delight filled with grace and wisdom and a commitment to Jesus

and the truth and each other. Erin is gay and Liz is a lesbian and they're both married together and have kids. So there we go. Not much more to say, but we're going to get to know this couple. And they, I mean, obviously their journey in sexuality is interesting and complex, but they're just beautiful, wonderful human beings and are doing some amazing things with the kingdom. So please welcome to the show for the first time, Liz and Aaron Munson. Hey friends, I'm here with my, uh, I want to say friends because I feel like I've known you for a while from a distance, but this is the first time we've actually probably had like a face-to-face-ish computer conversation. But I'm here with Aaron and Liz Munson. So, hey, thank you guys so much for being on the show.

I'm so excited to, I mean, honestly, just to get to know you better and just to hear about your story and how both of you have just really, I mean, I think helped the church engage the LGBTQ conversation in ways that are super healthy and helpful. So why don't we start? Can you, I don't know who wants to jump in first, but you can, I would love to hear both of your stories and as it pertains to faith, sexuality, gender, whatever, and how you got to know each other and fell in love or whatever, however you want to frame it. Do you want to go first? Oh man, this is, this is, um, it's, I don't even know where to start because there's just so much in those those questions. And I love to tell stories. So I think I'll start with my own journey.

In case people have not heard or don't know me at all, I knew that I was different when I was five. And my school was in a very rural community. And we took a field trip to a doctor's office one day. And they sent back some bags of hats. And they had a nurse's hat for the girls. And one of those, I don't ever remember the name of them, but the old school headband thing with a little monocle thing that the men, the boys were supposed to get, the doctors used to like look in your ear or something, like that weird headband. And so the teachers were handing them out at the end of the day,

and I asked for the nurse's hat, and I was told you can't have that. And I, you know, being five was confused because I was like, well, the nurse's hat matches my shoes. So I don't really understand. And she said, you can't have that hat because you're a boy, you have to have this one. So I knew that I was different then. And then it just net, like it just, the differences, um, growing up in rural Indiana, uh, with lots of farmers, um. It was not a safe space for a queer person. And I knew, like I identified as gay when I was in junior high school, but I was closeted because it wasn't safe in that particular area. It's also very conservative, and you weren't allowed to be gay. And so I just lived a dual life for quite a bit of time, and then in college

decided to apply to schools that I knew no one else from my high school was going to go to, which wasn't a lot of options. Or sorry, there were so many options. I could go pretty much anywhere because most of the people in my high school didn't go to college. But I was ready to be done with the church. I was going to be in my gay self and start over as a fresh start. And God decided that he disagreed with my idea. And within my first semester of being at Butler University, there was a campus ministry there and there were Christians, both male and female, that were nice to me. And that was not something that I was expecting. I didn't even know what to do with that. And they invited me, because I didn't know anybody, and they invited me to come to their

primetime meeting. And I was like, okay, because I might as well get to know some nice people and got engaged with a Bible study there. And I, like some of those guys are still people that I get together with every two weeks. They're some of our chosen family. We just spent Thanksgiving with one of them and his wife and their kids, which we spend every Thanksgiving and Easter with them, have been doing that for years. And I came out officially to all of them when I was 19. And I did try to be more, how do I want to say, more open with being gay. And so I dated and had some partners, and it just always ended in a lot of heartbreak for me. And when my boyfriend and I broke up, I

just couldn't do it anymore. And so I decided that I was done with, uh, with sex. I hated being gay, hated that part of who I was. Um, and so I was just going to be, the word that I used was asexual. I think that the more appropriate term now that I would use is celibate. Um, and at the time I still had this burning desire to be a father. And I was like, I don't even know how that's supposed to work. A gay, asexual man who's going to have children. How does that happen? So I made a bargain with God.

And I prayed and told him that if I was done, I was done with sex. I didn't want any partners anymore. Like it just was too painful. Um, but if there was ever a woman that was interested in me, even though I'm not attracted to women at all, um, there was a woman who was interested in me, uh, they, and they asked me out on a date. So they would have to ask me out. I would not be asking them out. On the first date, I would tell that woman that I was gay. And if their first response without hesitation was, I don't care, then I would marry that woman. And four first dates later, here comes Liz. And that exact scenario happened. And that was absolutely terrifying because I was

like, this is the exact scenario that I had told God I would know that I'm supposed to marry this woman, even though I don't understand it. And I don't know how it's going to work. Uh, but since, uh, God made this happen, I will be obedient. And that was, uh, that's the beginning of our romantic relationship. So romantic. All right, Liz, I feel like Liz, you got to jump in here. Like I'm so I'm dying to know, like this whole story, cause this a one-sided story so far it is um so i grew up also in a very conservative home um and i learned a later on in life um i kind of was putting two two and two together and i realized that growing up you were not allowed to be gay and Christian. So in my mind, I was like, well, I still believe in Jesus and I think God is real. So I must not be gay because I'm still a Christian.

So I spent a lot of, well, a good portion of my adult life kind of like trying to figure out what that meant for me. So I didn't care that Aaron was gay because I had been in a four-year relationship with a woman prior to meeting him and was kind of in a similar place where I felt like I was supposed to be a mom and I was supposed to marry a man, but I probably wouldn't be able to find somebody to marry me if I was with a woman. So I, um, we ended that and a few months later I met Aaron. So, um, my story is much less complicated. Well,

it's more complicated and less complicated because I did not know when I was five that I was different, but, um, yeah, the journey for me has been like a lot later in life and figuring out all of that. I mean, my, my mostly straight audience, of all the podcasts, I probably have more queer people listening than the average Christian podcast, but, but still this majority, majority are going to be straight, evangelical-ish. And they're all asking the question like, okay, you're attracted to women.

Aaron, you're attracted to men. You meet. You get along. Great. That's not abnormal. But what does it mean to like fall in love or pursue a romantic relationship when both of you have attractions in the other direction? Like, I don't know. I don't even know what the question is that I have, but like, right. You probably, you probably know what it is. Like, how does that work?

Well, I've been hurting, you know, revoice. He said, you know, the number one question I was good is how does this work? So how does it work? Like, I'm job, I am curious and I'm trying, I'm trying to raise the question. Everybody else is kind of asking like, what is, is this work so how does it work like i'm i am curious and i'm trying i'm trying to raise the question everybody else is kind of asking like what what is is this possible is this how can you have a romantic relationship with somebody the opposite sex when you're attracted to the same sex sure um it's a great question and i feel like um there like there are moments where I don't even really know how it works. And I feel like it is our story and it has worked for us. We've been married for 15 years, but it is not something that will work for everyone.

Sure. Sure. So, and it's honestly really hard for me because we have spent the past probably five years really, like, deconstructing our faith and diving into, like, what that means for us. So anytime anybody calls something a God thing, I kind of, like, cringe and roll my eyes and i'm like okay like really but like honestly it's really the only answer i have for this question like it was god and i hate that answer because it seems so like trite and cringy as our preteens would say. Um, but it just really, I mean, I feel like we could come up with a million explanations, but the only one that, that we, I can come back to that makes sense every time is that it's what God wanted for our life. Yeah. Um. I want to start by saying, like you mentioned Revoice and our talk at Revoice and my biggest regret at Revoice, because I feel like we did like for never having spoken for i wish that i had we had made it very

clear to all people who are listening that as liz said this is our story yeah and it is our story and it is not to be used as like held up and idolized for all, all Christian queer people like need, like these, these are options for you because of how, like on the, on the other side, like there are people who enter into mixed orientation marriages, um, where tradition, like I shouldn't say traditionally, cause is it traditional? It's kind of new, these terms. But the most common understanding of a mixed orientation marriage is a straight person and a queer person who are married together. And we have seen multiple of those marriages, even after, you know, a decade,

just like dissolve and end in divorce because it's hard. And so I wish that we had done a better job of communicating this is our story and it works for us. And just like when you've heard one gay person's story, you've heard one gay person's story. You've heard one queer orientation marriage story might be the only queer orientation marriage story you ever hear in your life and also that's okay we deserve a space at the table too so i want to say that if it's if it's any consolation i did not i i heard that at your revoice talk i don't know if you said that explicitly but i did i never got the slightest impression. What's that? And I wish that we had said it explicitly because afterwards there was someone who is in the LGBTQ community whose parent was there and came up to us and said that the talk was so good. But their straight parent, like it rekindled a hope in their heart that they can now start looking for someone of the opposite sex for them to marry.

So, yes. Yeah. I wish I had more. I didn't hear you giving like a prescription. I only heard you giving a description of your individual story. So maybe you could have made it more explicit. I don't know. But I didn't hear you at all hinting at, Hey, this is the paradigm of what every gay person

should pursue or could pursue. Or, um, I thought you guys were really careful, but that's my perspective. Great. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks for sharing that. Um, to, so now that I've, you know, gone on that tangent, um, the question was, um, you know, the, how does that work? I personally think that marriages like ours have existed for person that you're married to. I mean, when we look at history, there have been arranged marriages, there have been political marriages, and people made those things work for their entire life. made those things work for their entire life. And I don't think that it's so different. It just seems different because we're open and honest about what's going on. And so I also think that when we like that question, how does that work? Because, you know, I am attracted to men and not women. And she's attracted to women and not really men.

I think that one of the gifts of our marriage is that it isn't built on attraction. genuine companionship and joy that we give and receive from each other and, um, building all of that intimacy outside of sex, um, has, uh, our marriage wouldn't be able to exist without that. And I think that, um, when I hear people ask about like that, you know, attraction piece, I want to challenge the people asking like, sure, like you came together because you had initial attraction to your significant other. But if you've been married for more than, I don't know, five years, I guarantee you that there are moments where you like stop finding your partner attractive.

Like, it's just not something that you like are focused on all the time. Like you discover pretty early on that there's so much more to them than their body. Um, like they're a full human being. Um, anyway, I, so I, I can't tell you how much I appreciate everything you're saying right now. And I, I, so I, I'm a huge proponent of not, and I want to make this really clear for my audience. Like I, I, I absolutely never want to make mixed orientation marriages. And I know you prefer a different term, queer, queer orientation or queer marriage, because you're not really mixed orientation. It's different than the mixed orientation,

but it's similar, I guess, in some ways. I never want to make mixed orientation marriages prescriptive. And I feel like I have gone out of my way to make that really clear. However, and this is a really important however, I do think, and this is part of my revoice talk, which I am so passionate about, that mixed orientation marriages have truly taught me that marriage as a theological institution, it must transcend sexual attraction because look, every single heterosexual, straight, whatever marriage knows, we know, we don't always admit it, but we know that after two and a half years, that all the chemicals start wearing off. And after five years, kids start entering the picture. And after seven years, you want to have sex with everybody who's not your spouse. I don't want to make it the same. It's not the same. I don't want to say that a heterosexual marriage that loses its chemistry is the same thing as a

mixed orientation. I don't want to say that. At the same time, there's so many interesting parallels here to where if you do build a marriage, period, build a marriage on sexual attraction, that's just such a faulty foundation. And there's a reason why so many heterosexual marriages have failed. I mean, when you were saying like, we don't want to make this prescriptive, this is just us, whatever. I almost want to say, I could say that. Hey, look, I'm attracted to women and I married a female. Now, it wasn't wrong. You know, like we made it work.

Like, I don't want to make this prescriptive, but like I want to 50% plus heterosexual marriages end in divorce or an affair or porn addictions or some other sexual aberration. That should at least tell us like sexual attraction, I think, has been idolized in just our idea of marriage in general. I'm talking too much. our idea of marriage in general. I'm talking too much, but what you both are talking about, it's just, it's so like helpful for me as I reflect on just marriage as an objective institution. What are your thoughts on that and I think that one of marriages and celibate gay Christians could be this era's modern day prophets. Yeah. Because the life, the sacrifice that we have to make. When you look at the Western culture, what sacrifices do most people have to make really? You know, it's like,

oh my God, I'm so stressed out. I have to, you know, do this and pay these bills and, you know, good thing you have a job. Like just so many things. I wonder if because of the long suffering that really I thought is supposed to be a part of every believer's experience. Everyone who calls themselves a Christian. Um, like it's that, I think that our, uh, voice could be the prophetic voice for the church because our existence doesn't fit into a box. It doesn't make sense. And we could not build our marriage on sex. We had to build it on other things and choose to commit to each other

and believe in the covenant that we took and the marriage vows that we took and commit to working things out, even when it gets really hard. I mean, we've been doing it for 15 years and, you know, we've got another 15 plus to go. Um, and then are you looking to die young? I mean, maybe that wouldn't, wouldn't be sometime. Um, no, really. Um, and I And I just think that especially with the idolization of the marriage and nuclear family. And that's part of the reason why we make people uncomfortable with our existence and our story. And yeah, I guess that was a little bit rambling. But that's my response, I guess.

I'm curious for both of you i can maybe start with liz was there like a tipping point when you guys were hanging out you're enjoying each other's friendship and then all of a sudden was there something that turned into you were like oh my gosh i feel like i could see myself spending my life with this person. Like what was that switch from like, this is an awesome friendship to I think this could lead to marriage. Yeah. So that would be a cute story, but it's not what happened. So oddly enough, at this crusade where Aaron met all all these great people and was in a Bible study with, I was going to those same meetings with my girlfriend at the time because we were looking for husbands, obviously.

That's what you do when you're a Christian in college. And Aaron was on the worship team. And for some odd reason, while he was singing, I had this like visceral reaction where I was like, I have to go get to know that guy. And I mean, I can't really explain it, but a few months later, we were in a Bible study together over the summer. And I don't think I knew you were going to be in the Bible study, but I hosted it because I lived really close to campus. And so he showed up at the Bible study and I was like, oh crap, like there he is. I need to get to know him and like I was more in this like posture which I was like 20 so like not everything I did was like the most mature or like

thoughtful um but at one point he was sharing with the group about how he had just gotten a scholarship to study in Africa. And in my mind, I was like, oh, no, I'm going to have to figure out a way to get myself to Africa so that I can be with him. And I don't know how that's going to work. so I mean we we were in the Bible study together from June until September and then we officially started dating in September and then we were engaged in January so there wasn't any like friendship where it was like let's hang out and be friends it was more like hey I think we're supposed to be together and why don't we just do it? I mean, I, I'm trying to avoid Christianese language, but did you feel like, did you both feel like it was, it was a legitimate calling? Like,

for the sake of the kingdom of God, we can do this better together than apart. I mean, I don't want to put words in your mouth. Is that, I mean. we can do this better together than apart. I mean, I don't want to put words in your mouth. Is that, I mean, Yeah. I mean, I feel like that's the only, that's the only way really to describe it. It's, it's hard for me as I'm like the older that I get and the more that I learned about like the prefrontal cortex and how, like how many decisions I was making before mine was fully developed.

Like it's hard for me to look back and be like, oh yeah, you were making really good choices. So I feel like it is just what we're supposed to be doing. And I agree, Christianese is hard for me to kind of use. Yeah, I mean, I can't think of a better or more fitting word yeah um because for her like I didn't have any of those thoughts I didn't know who she was like because she was always with her girlfriend like literally her girlfriend not like this is my friend who's a girl like this was that too well my gosh so I didn't even know which one was

which for a long time and because they were always together it was just like this one unit and so for me it was I didn't have any of those like oh I need to be with this person. It was more like this. I prayed this specific thing. And lo and behold, a modern day miracle has happened. And this exact situation that I prayed about for clarity just occurred. And so now to use, what's his name? Is it Mark Yarhouse, who did the costly obedience book? Yeah. Like hearing that term for the first time a few years ago, I was like, that is our life. That is our journey. Like I made this bargain with God. And so I'm going to trust that God has my best interests at heart.

And I'm going to pursue this, even though this is terrifying. And that's something else. Like we talked very early on about lots of vulnerable things, like our coming out experiences and what we like getting to know one another as human beings, uh, very, very fast. Um, because I was like, I'm supposed to be obeying God because I told him that I would do this. And I really am just hoping that God knows me well enough that this is the right thing. And it was scary because I was, although I guess I could say I was in control,

I did get to make my own decisions. That didn't even enter my mind because I just wanted to follow what God's best for me was. And I wanted, I needed to trust and have faith that that was it. I'm curious what, what benefit, I'm trying to search for the right words here. Um, how has each of your sexual orientations maybe helped the marriage? I'm thinking primarily of like mixed, like traditional mixed orientation marriages where you have one queer person, one straight person, where I can imagine there's still like a long process of understanding each other and frustration and whatever. My initial assumption, and let me know if this is completely wrong, is, well, if both of you have a queer orientation,

at least there's some kind of like common even though there's different sexual attractions going different directions there's got to be some kind of common understanding of like hey i totally get it like i know which this the difficulty you're going through like i totally get it like is that is that an accurate assumption do your yes each of your orientations in a sense is it almost helpful and we in a different interesting kind of way oh my gosh 100 yeah i mean i'm assuming it's probably a lot like being married to a heterosexual person um two being straight married two straight people being married to each other because we do have conversations where like um we're really open about attractions and like struggles but it is like i feel like

we can relate to each other because we do understand where the other one is coming from and i feel like it is similar to two straight people being married because if one of us is like oh you know we're watching a show and we're like they're so hot and the other one's like i don't get it but like yeah it's it's not weird for us because we've been talking about it since the beginning um and it's just been part of our regular conversation and um i do feel like we should probably mention though that like bargaining with god is probably not the best way to like no for sure yeah yeah what do you mean by that you're describing right now sounds legitimately insane

well so so let me as a as a parallel as a not on parallel parallel, as a weird parallel, and I don't think I've ever talked about this on the podcast, but my wife and I, the, the male sex drive is typically higher and different than a female sex drive, which is more complex and, and involves a lot more relationship romance. And there's just a lot of complexity there. And, and, um, there there's times in both my wife and I are kind of like, I wish you could just step in my shoes for a second and experience what I experienced. And we both feel that way, you know, like, and, and, but here with you guys, in a sense, in, in an ironic way, you can almost do that a lot easier. Like, Oh, I totally get it. Like, yeah, I totally get what you're going through.

I don't know. Oh, that is a hundred. like, um, in our experience, like Liz is not, uh, like she's a complete introvert. And so like her doing any kind of public speaking has been such a mark of growth and courage on her part. Um, I've been sharing about myself for quite a long time. And sometimes, like, one of the gifts of understanding, like, being, you know, in the queer community is sometimes, like, in the past, when I've shared or have talked about my attractions at churches or whatever, I've been asked not to come back. I've had some very awful things said about me, um, on social media and, uh, like things that are just so hurtful. And to have another queer person who is my partner, who is like,

this is terrible. Uh, and like, let's also remember that this is a human being who clearly does not have, um, compassion, like doesn't want to understand and wants to just judge instead, like to talk, talk me down off of those things has been really, really helpful. Um, and I would also say like the other gift of being in this queer orientation marriage is that we, um, like we get to be fully ourselves because like, I don't, she, Liz has complete freedom to dress however she wants. Like she shops in the boys section because clothes are cheaper there. Um, and she feels more comfortable in most boys clothes. Like that's totally fine. Like I,

I don't care. Like you want to, you know, stop shaving your legs. Who cares? Like I, it's not going to help or hinder any aspect of our marriage. Like that's great. Like you do you. Um, and I, like, I know that I have that same, um, level of, level of freedom that is given to me. And I think that that part, that is pretty profound that I think is unique in a lot of marriages. Like I don't feel like I need to edit any part of who I am to make Liz. To try and make you more attractive. Yeah, to make her more attracted to me. who I am to make Liz.

To try and make you more attractive. Yeah, to make her more attracted to me. I mean, you guys have a very honest relationship. I mean, it has to be. I mean, just from the very beginning, there's such deep level honesty that was essential to talk about. So that kind of foundation, like, I mean, honestly, part of me,

and I know probably a lot of straight couples listening, like that's, we're almost like envious. Like, gosh, like from the very beginning you had to be like, here's the depth of who I am. Yep. Deal. You know, let's go from there. And I would imagine you both probably have a, an easier time with honesty and struggles and fears and all these things that a lot of heterosexual couples might really struggle with because their relationship was built on sexual attraction. I think you're hot. You think I'm hot. Great. Let's get married and have sex, you know? And then when you're really struggling with like deep things of life, it can be,

you know, really scary to like open up and be vulnerable, but your relationship was built on vulnerability. Um, Do you guys do marriage counseling? I got some couples that I would love to refer to you. We have not done that. Next career. That'll be my retirement plan. Okay. So let's,

can we, can we transition a little bit? Like we've been talking super positively and everything. What are some challenges that you guys face in marriage? If you're able to share and specifically like maybe some unique challenges that, that you guys face that maybe other heterosexual couples might not face as much. If there are any. our marriage has no challenges you want to talk about the fight we had three nights ago yeah tell me about a fight yeah i want to hear like what what was the last fight like what do you guys fight about i do i do I do think it is interesting because there are no secrets, which means there tends to be, I don't know if then anytime anything comes up it comes out and then

there's always something else to work through because we are two people with different thoughts and opinions and emotions and so there is I feel like I't know. I don't know if we have more conflict than people, but I do think that anytime there is vulnerability to the death that is necessary, I think in any relationship, I feel like there's naturally going to be conflict because we do care. We care about our relationship and making it work, which means that we are going to keep bringing up these issues whether we want to or not it we but I think we both feel like it is

really important and I mean it's part of I think when you start with such a deep level of vulnerability you've kind of like started a snowball effect where it's kind of like hard to stop so then like it just comes a lot more naturally for us to have those conversations um can i can i talk about your abuse did that work can you bring that up because that was a significant challenge yeah I don't know if that is really specific to our

relationship no but I was going to talk I would love to hear whatever you're talking about I know but it was like should the world know that's what I mean. Like, yeah, we're fine telling you, but this is also like... Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So there are a lot of statistics about people who are part of the LGBTQ community experiencing sexual abuse when they were younger. Oh, yeah. And sadly, that is a part of both of our stories. And so some of the challenges that we have experienced are not because we are queer. It is because we are humans. And I mean, have to work through a lot of trauma. I, um, am a counselor by profession. Like I am passionate about mental health and working through things. Um, and, um, so I, I had before Liz and I met had already started working on a lot of the trauma from my own past. And she had experienced such trauma that like it was repressed and that like was kind of brought up after we were already married. And then she started having these awful memories coming back and panic attacks and like all of these pieces of her life that had

been forgotten. And so to be very honest, like there was a period of, it was like a year or so where we like did not have sex because that part of our story, um, was, so it was too triggering, um, for her as she was working through this. Um, and that, um, so, I mean, that's a real life example of like, as much as people might be hearing a lot of hope in our story, like there, I hope that they do. And also that it's hard won, hard earned, hard won. So that's. Have you guys, do you feel like you've healed from your sexual trauma or is it do you ever i don't know does anybody ever quite fully heal from that or do you feel like you've

been able to process that in healthy ways yeah um i was reminded aaron uh was on a different call last night talking about a similar thing and um he brought up the fact that like anytime something happens in your life and you look back on it and you still if you still feel any kind of like anxiety or dread or any kind of like negative emotion about it. Anything other than peace. Sure. Yeah. Then you have not fully worked on it. There's still more to do.

So I feel like that for me has been a really good kind of scale to look back on things that have happened in my life. Like I think we all have things that we will continue to work through until we die um but I do think that I have gotten to a point where I feel at peace now will that change in a month if you know something else comes up I have no idea but I feel like in this moment I I feel like I am in a good place with my story and and where that has taken me it's been quite a journey um yes the way that I described that was like an onion which is not a beautiful analogy but uh in Shrek they talk he's like an onion has layers, an ogre has layers. And I think that that is very true of our own experiences with all difficult things.

And it shouldn't feel hopeless. To me, it feels good because I'm able to name it. And so since I can name it, now I know what I'm working on, what I'm working towards, as opposed to why did I have this bizarre reaction when you tried to touch my face? Well, it's because my mom used to punch me in the face and I had to lie about it, you know, things like that. Um, so, uh, being able to name it has been very freeing for me. Um, you had also asked about, uh, challenges. Another one that I had thought of, let me back up. One, I think really healthy thing that may be unique to our situation, but perhaps shouldn't be, is that we have never felt like we are the answer to all of our prayers for each other. We have always known that we will not be healthy

humans if we do not have good, strong, healthy, same-sex friendships that are also intimate without sex outside of us. That will be detrimental to us. And unfortunately, that is a challenge

because there, it has taken many years of, um, attempting to find those relationships that are reciprocal and not one way or one sided, um, or toxic. Yeah, that's a really, yeah. Um, it's taken a lot of, uh, pain and heartache to get to where we are now with the really good, healthy chosen family that we have. Um, and, um, I mean, it's one of the reasons, like I've had in the past two years, a few job offers that would require me to move and I'm like no because I'm too old to have to start that over because it was so hard because so many people like when they get married they just like cocoon and I don't understand that like that would that would have killed us well that you've used the phrase chosen family a couple times can you unpack

that a little bit? That's an unfamiliar phrase to a lot of people. Yeah, I'll go first and then you can fill in. It's easier for me to use because my family is kind of a mess. My mom died a few years ago. My brothers and I don't really talk for many, many reasons. Some of it has to do with some of the trauma that we experienced when we were younger. And some of it has to do with some other family things

and the fact that I'm gay. And so it's just like, they've got kids and it's like this, like the last time I talked to them was at my mom's funeral in 2019, other than like a random text here and there. So it's especially at holiday times when our culture is like all about family. meaningful now that we have people that do feel like family to us that we spend some holidays with um because we didn't get to uh we didn't get to experience that with our biological family okay on my side on your side okay, how about your side? What's your relationship like? Yeah. So my, um, my family is nearby and we do see them at the holidays, but,

um, it is not like the relationships that I have with my family are not the same as the relationships that we have with our chosen family. I feel like the older I've gotten, the more I've come to understand a lot of like life things that people talk about. And as a younger person, you're like, whatever. about and as a younger person you're like whatever um but like I do feel like it is really important for any relationship especially in a marriage but like anytime you're growing you're either growing together or you're growing apart and I think that one of the most important things about our chosen family is that like we grow together um and one of the really important things about that especially because of our sexuality is that everyone knows everything about us and they have from very early on in the relationship. And so they're able to hold us accountable on things. They, I mean, part of the challenge was finding people who were okay with our story and weren't,

they didn't feel threatened by it or intimidated by it or, I don't know, disgusted by it. disgusted by it um so having people in our life who know everything about us who we are open with over like as things happen we communicate with them they know what's going on in our life and they still love us where we are we still love them like the the relationship is a two-way relationship which I think is hard to find sometimes and I think that it makes it more uh important that like my family is great, and I'm glad that they're in my life. But the level of, like, depth and understanding and all that is just not the same. So that's why I think, I mean, some people are able to have that with their biological family, but I think a lot of people have to find that elsewhere. biological family, but I think a lot of people have to find that elsewhere. And especially in the LGBT community where sometimes the biological family isn't okay with who you are,

you do have to find family outside of what that means. So. Yeah. Wow. yeah so yeah wow i'm curious what kind of advice both of you would give to somebody who is gay christian committed to a traditional sexual ethic and is asking the question is a mixed orientation marriage something i should be open to um what kind of advice would you give to somebody like that if they're thinking about like all right it looks like it's either celibacy or mixed orientation marriage not attracted to the opposite sex i don't know what that's

gonna look like but i'm also looking at this the pathway to celibacy and that doesn't look too exciting either like what would you counsel that person to think through? I guess. I think the first thing that I would say is that they need to make sure that they are working on themselves because I think that, um, the, especially in the evangelical church, as I have already alluded to, message feels like to be a christian you get married and you have children and so if you are a gay person the message is either i'm going

to have to marry someone that i'm not really attracted to, and that doesn't sound fun, that sounds really messy, or I'm going to be a second-class citizen and be single for my entire life, and that doesn't sound fun either. I think that it takes a lot of work to unpack, to sift through all of the toxic messages surrounding that, to be able to know who you are, and then be able to trust the spirits prompting in things. Because I mean, that was my own experience, because if I didn't trust that, we would not be together. Also, I would say if you think that you are maybe being called to a mixed orientation marriage, I think that being completely open at the beginning is absolutely key.

Um, being open about you. And so that's another aspect of like working on yourself. Like I have seen, um, so many marriages and, or have, like significant trouble, because the same-sex attracted partner wasn't honest about that, either with themselves or maybe was with themselves but not with their partner for a long time. And the damage that that causes to the relationship is so deep. It's really hard to come back from that. And so, yeah, my advice is work on yourself. Get comfortable with who you are and remember the good gift that you are because God said that you are very good. That's so good. Liz, any thoughts? Um, yeah, so I, I don't have any necessarily, necessarily regrets in my life, but I do wish that I had spent more time cultivating like a good community around myself. and also like what Aaron was saying, like, um, getting to know myself better before I got married.

Um, I just, I feel like it's important to be able to offer the best version of yourself to whoever you're going to like be with, with, for the rest of, you know, whoever, whoever lives the longest shortest whatever anyway um but i also feel like um if if somebody is looking into whether or not this is what they are called to i i would encourage them to first dive into like cultivating community and building relationships that are not necessarily romantic in any way. Just because I feel like so often as humans, what we really are longing for is intimacy. And sometimes we get that from people who are not our partners. And we think that a partner might solve all the intimacy problems or issues or longings that we

have. But that is not true. One person cannot be everything for you. And sometimes you don't even want to be with that one person who you had married to solve all your problems. So I think spending time cultivating a community where you can really dive into intimacy and what it looks like for you. And because then I think you can better understand, like, is this a calling that I am doing because I think it's from God or is it something that I'm like looking to fill a void in my life? And you can kind of figure out a little bit more of like maybe what your motivations are.

That's so good. You guys lead, do you lead a parent group in Indianapolis or what do you guys do? Uh, I do, uh, lead a parent support group of Christian parents whose kids have come out. Right. Um, yeah, I do that here. And then we also lead a side B Christian group here in Indianapolis. It has like, it has like 11, 12 people in it okay um liz is the only female uh really there's a lot of penises in the group yep wow yep if somebody's listening in the indianapolis area and either they're a christian parent of an lgbt kid or they're lgbt themselves inside b can they get a hold of you or the group or Or how would they go about finding out? Yeah, they can.

Is it Indie? I think it's Indie Oasis. I always forget if it's IndieOasis.com or OasisIndie.com. So Liz is going to look it up on the phone. But that's our website. IndieOasis. That is how. I think it's.com. It should say in you to take refuge i'm seeing a bunch of housing a side b nope that's not it um a side b

uh mixed orientation marriage group that is virtual through revoice if anybody is in a mixed orientation marriage and wants more support in that so okay i'm on revoice's website where would they go to here oh here it is revoice.us forward slash community dash groups dash or sorry, forward slash community-groups forward slash. Just go to the Revoice website, revoiceus.com and then community, or no, sorry,

revoice.us and go to community groups and halfway down, there's a place called Sacred Space. I just, oh yeah, there you are. Yeah. Oh yeah, you yeah your picture on there sacred space

look at that a virtual community group for people in mixed orientation marriages and it launched in june and you guys meet 1 30 to 3 eastern time virtually that's so yes well we do meet virtually but that time like the group it changes every it's not always consistent at that time it is every month okay oh so it's both it's both a local and a zoom meeting there are two different ones okay so the one on revoice even though it says that we meet from like one to three one to to two 30 or whatever that is. Yeah. Um, we, it, we meet on zoom,

but it is like, we have a separate way of communicating. Once we, people are like referred to us and they want to join, we say, here's the actual time that we're meeting. Got it. Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, but I, it is, um, IndieOasis.org. IndieOasis.org. Okay. Uh-huh. Let me, IndieOasis.org. Um, and that, uh, is the way that you can contact us about, um,

the Side B group here in Indie that meets in person. Okay. Um, and that's the parent group that I lead for parents of LGBTQ youth. Got it. Okay. Great. Great. Well, thank you guys so much for coming on the podcast. And I just, I, I'm just on all of you guys. Like you guys are doing such great work. I love your relationship. I, we don't know each other well, but like, just from what I've seen, it's just uh i wish we could hang out more and you guys are wearing the most awesome christmas sweaters i wish well so it is the season don now our gay apparel if people are listening this will be on youtube probably shortly after the podcast is released so you gotta go to the youtube channel and check out

your awesome sweaters and then the taco bell sign behind you which is totally vintage it's awesome so um and you're so the several times i've seen pictures of you you're in very different outfits like aaron you were in this killer bow tie like looking super like british smart um and then now you're in christmas sweaters and then the picture you were in something else like your fashion abilities are pretty amazing so there are like stereotypes exist for a reason and i 100 embody the gay stereotype also if you are fluent in musical theater same i am too okay yeah i've heard i think about 95 of my gay friends have told me that like when it comes to like matching socks the stereotype is pretty much true like you will never find me in a pair of socks doesn't it wasn't a thoughtful choice you won't pick an entire outfit based on one pair of socks.

That is true. I like to be inspired. I've recently gotten into socks the last couple of years because my kids, my teenage daughters are all into socks and they have this whole they're very particular about oh dad, those socks don't work.

Oh yeah, those are great and you've got to wear this pair. To me, they all look the same. I don't see any difference. Oh, yeah, it's a whole thing. I'm glad that you have them to help. Oh, yeah, yeah. No, they're totally into it. Well, thank you guys for being on the podcast,

and yeah, many, many blessings on your work in ministry. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.