Theology in the Raw - S9 Ep928: The Scandal of Christmas, Part 2: Dr. Michael Bird

Episode Date: December 16, 2021

We often think of Luke 1-2 and Matthew 1-2 when we think about the Christmas story. But what about Revelation 12? Is this angle a strange, fringe way of looking at the birth of Jesus, or is a primarily lens? In this episode, Dr. Bird and I look at this less-than-familar way of reading the Christmas story. It’s an angle where the bird of a peasant-King is a battle against the socio-political powers to be, powers that are demonically influenced and stand opposed to the upside down kingdom of God on earth.  Michael Bird graduated with a BMin from Malyon College (2001) and Honours and PhD from the University of Queensland (2002, 2005). Michael taught New Testament at the Highland Theological College in Scotland (2005-9) before joining Brisbane School of Theology as lecturer in Theology (2010-12). He joined the faculty at Ridley as lecturer in Theology in 2013. He is the author of 30 books, including the volumes The Gospel of Lord: How the Early Church Wrote the Story of Jesus, Evangelical Theology, and with N.T. Wright, The New Testament in its World. Michael is married to Naomi and they have four children and together they live in Melbourne, Australia. Theology in the Raw Conference - Exiles in Babylon At the Theology in the Raw conference, we will be challenged to think like exiles about race, sexuality, gender, critical race theory, hell, transgender identities, climate change, creation care, American politics, and what it means to love your democratic or republican neighbor as yourself. Different views will be presented. No question is off limits. No political party will be praised. Everyone will be challenged to think. And Jesus will be upheld as supreme. Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out Dr. Sprinkle’s website prestonsprinkle.com Stay Up to Date with the Podcast Twitter | @RawTheology Instagram | @TheologyintheRaw If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in a Raw. This is part two of our four-part series on the scandal of Christmas. This episode is sponsored by the InterVarsity Press Book Drop. The IVP Book Drop is a monthly book club perfect for readers who want to grow spiritually and hear from a diverse range of voices addressing today's most important cultural topics. So for 10 bucks a month, you get one book sent to you every month, and that includes shipping. So they'll start you off with Dr. Esau McCauley's bestselling book, Reading While Black, which is a fantastic book. And then on the second Monday of every month, a new book will be sent to you. Books written by emerging voices along with well-known figures who are both diverse in ethnicity and in gender. I love InterVarsity Press. They always publish books that are intellectually responsible, well-researched, and also very readable and focused on the church. And I don't know if you know, but a lot of my guests that I've had on the show have published with IVP. So like Lamar Hardwick, Sandy Richter, Greg Coles, Laurie Krieg, George Yancey, Tish

Harrison Warren, Esau McCauley. And, and if you don't know this, Press and Sprinkle. I actually have a book out with IVP published many, many years ago. Anyway, it's super easy to sign up. Just go to ivpress.com forward slash T-I-T-R. That's ivpress.com forward slash T-I-T-R. Stay informed, stay up to speed on today's most important topics. Again, ivpress.com forward slash T-I-T-R. Registration for the upcoming Theology in the Raw conference is filling up very quickly, especially for the after party.

I don't know if you've been on the website and checked it out, but we're going to have a big raging, well, I shouldn't say raging. It's going to be very mature after party on Friday night, April 1st. This is the second day of the conference and we do have limited space. We have about 500 spots open, and most of those have been filled.

We only have about 120 spots left. So if you are planning to attend the conference, you need to register soon because spots for the conference as a whole are filling up. But especially if you want to be at the after party, you want to register ASAP. I am so excited about the theology in the RAW Conference. All the info is on my website, PrestonSprinkle.com. My guest today is Dr. Michael Byrd. Mike Byrd has been a good friend of mine for many years, and he is a renowned New Testament

scholar. He has a PhD from University of Queensland. He's taught at Highland Theological College, Brisbane School of Theology, and currently serves as a professor at Ridley College in Melbourne, Australia. And he's the author of many books, over 30 books, and is just an all-around great dude. You're going to love this conversation, part two of the series, The Scandal of Christmas. Let's welcome back to the show for the second or third time, I can't remember, my friend and New Testament scholar, Dr. Michael Espert.

Hey, friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology in Raw. I'm here with an old friend, not old as in you're old, you're middle-aged, I guess. But man, we go back to the early 2000s, mid-2000s. When did we first meet in Aberdeen? Maybe 2005 or something? I think so. I think it was 2005 in Aberdeen. And I remember distinctly because your father arrived in France with the wrong passport.

And he got sent back to America. Do you remember that? I remember that. He got all the way from LAX to his connection to France and on his way to Aberdeen. He traveled that whole way with his wife's passport. Before someone noticed, hey, that girl ain't that dude.

That dad is insane. I mean, you know. I remember. He was held in Paris airport in some kind of no man's land like he was given a toothbrush and like shipped off to some cell while they figure this out i mean it was no joke he said he was like he felt like a terrorist yeah well i found myself um uh in a u.s immigration holding area where they they weren't convinced i had a visa to do what i was doing and so i found myself in a in a locked in a room with a bunch of very

nervous looking guatemalans and uh i pity those poor people i've now been among them and i just had to explain that on a visa i am allowed to teach in a U.S. seminary for a week on the visa. So, yeah, but I did have a nervous kind of like about 45 minutes trying to convince some border officials, homeland, not to exile me back to Australia. By the way, how's my house doing out there in Melbourne? You guys keeping good care of it? It's good, man. That's good, man. It's good.

It's still has that, that strange scent of, um, old spice and Budweiser that seems to follow you wherever you go. Uh, but we're in the process, we're in the process of selling it. Oh,

you couldn't get, we couldn't get rid of this. We couldn't get rid of the, um, Preston sprinkle, you know, musk scent. So we decided to sell the house instead.

So for the majority of my audience that has no clue what we're talking about, I think it was back in 2017, I want to say, when you happened to be in the States for six weeks and my family and I were looking for a place to go to in Australia. And you said, well, my place is available. You got two cars, a house, whatever you need. So we went out there and stayed at your house for about five weeks go to in Australia. And you said, well, my place is available. You got two cars, a house, whatever you need. So we went out there and stayed at your house for about five weeks in

Melbourne, Australia, man, you guys got the best coffee out there. My word. I can still taste it. It is incredible. And you're no funny thing is Preston.

I, I despise coffee. I can't stand it. I hate it. Do you know? So you have no, you don't even know on like melbourne in particular australia has amazing coffee but melbourne in particular

might be some of the best coffee i've ever had just you guys and you don't even know what i'm talking about that's so sad well i know it's a i know it's a city of coffee snobs these are kind of like the coffee snobs who look down on your coffee. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So it is like uber level coffee snobbery. Yeah. Well, hey, it's tis the season.

Merry Christmas, almost. We're going to talk about the Christmas story in a second. But I do want to briefly talk about this whole thing about deconstruction, reconstruction. There seems to be a ton of Christians, some celebrity-ish Christians deconstructing. And you wrote a really good article addressing, I thought it was so balanced and nuanced and thoughtful as everything you do and say is typically that way. But can you give us a snapshot view of what's going on with what seems to be, I don't want to say trend, like it's not a real thing, but the popularity maybe, the commonality of people deconstructing and then what that means for kind of us as Christians, evangelical-ish Christians thinking through that. Yeah, what are your thoughts on this? I think a number of people have realized that so much of their faith was rooted either in their parents.

It was rooted in a culture. It was rooted in tribalism. And like at one level, they knew it wasn't true or it wasn't authentic or there was a dissonance. Like the Jesus they were reading about in the Bible was not the Jesus they heard people talking about around the barbecue. Okay. And I think a lot of people have realized that what they bought into was less about Jesus and more like a particular type of culture. And I think it becomes more acute when your religion is tied to a particular political culture, if you like.

And I think a lot of people are realizing, you know, what was the religious part and what was the cultural part, and they're only now taking stock of that, and they're stepping back and they're trying to figure out, okay, was was was this even a religion? Was it just like my upbringing? And then, you know, you've got, you know, other things that come into it. You know, people, you know, where's where's God in my suffering? Where's God in my depression?

You know, typical questions about faith and science, you know, that kind of a thing. You can throw that all into the mix. faith and science, you know, that kind of a thing. You can throw that all into the mix. So I think that's happened a lot, particularly in the last five years, because religion seems to be, evangelical religion has seemed to be increasingly tribalized. And I know this because Russell Moore, famous Baptist theologian who worked with the Southern Baptist Convention for a long time in their political lobby group, he said the religious right became the people that were saying that Bill Clinton was unfit to be president because of his, you know, adultery and escapades, the same people are now holding, you know, Trump, you know, placards all around. And it's like, how do you do that? And that made people think it was never about the religion.

It was never about ethics. It was never about righteousness. It was all about the political culture. It was all about the tribe. And I think that's probably the big thing. And I would say where you have a type of Christianity like that, that it's based on political tribalism, it doesn't need to be deconstructed. It needs to be destroyed. And, you know, that's what it needs because it's not Christianity. If your religion is just a chaplain for something conservative or something progressive, it's just propping up a political ethos. It's not the religion of Jesus.

It's not the religion of the apostles. It's not the religion of the martyrs. It's just a cog in a big cultural machine. And you might want to get reached the point where I no longer want to be part of the machine. So in your observations, the people that are deconstructing are deconstructing not so much from like Jesus or even the Christian religion, but more of a modern evangelical subculture. Like it's a, it's a, it's a Christian culture that they all of a sudden realize, I don't agree with this anymore. Um, but then if that, if that culture has been so intertwined with their religion, their prior commitment to Jesus, if it's all one in the same,

like to be a Christian is to be Republican, to be young earth, to be angry at everybody else, you know, if, if that's wrapped up and this is what it means to be a Christian is to be Republican, to be young earth, to be angry at everybody else. If that's wrapped up and this is what it means to be a genuine Christ follower, and then you start to say, I'm seeing things a different way, then it's easy to kind of walk away from the whole thing. Exactly. And then if you add to that some normal doubts, like I is, where is God when my mom got cancer? Or, and then you add to that, if you have a bad church experience where you had spiritual abuse, okay, where you saw the way the women were treated, where you had kind of like a

purity culture, but it only applied to women, you know, boys will be boys, but girls need to stay virgins. I mean, if you, if you see that type of thing, that's going to feed into it. And you're going to say, look, I still like Jesus. I still love what he says in the Gospels and everything. But when you see all the other stuff, the dissonance between what is written in Scripture, what they say on the one hand, but what they do, that's going to, that, that, that you can't live with those sorts of dualities forever. At some point it's got to break because you kind of come down and say, look, I know this is a kind of a lie or this is a front for something else. And yeah, I think that's what, that's what's driving it. Types of church abuse, realizing how much is connected with culture, and then some of the standard existential questions that people face across their life.

Do you think that there's, I don't say glorification, but maybe trendy is, I'm trying to search for a better word. I don't love trendy, but do you think there is almost a trendiness to deconstruction like that? What's that? Like a fad-ish sort of a thing yeah like a fad and i don't i don't want to downplay the very real things that are going on when somebody quote unquote deconstructs or rethinks some foundational things with their prior religious environment or culture um i don't want to

downplay that those are very real experiences but there does i don't want to downplay that. Those are very real experiences. But there does, I don't know, there does seem to be almost like a glorification faddishness of deconstructing as a thing. Do you see, I mean, I'm speaking from my American evangelical context. Do you see that on your side of the world? I see it in two ways. I see two fads. One fad is to want to be part of the latest thing. So you'll get someone who will say, well, you know, I'm just in a weird space right now. I'm just deconstructing. And it's a good way to draw a little bit of attention to yourself. very sincerely, but I'm sure you do get a few people who just drop the deconstruct word just because they want their, you know, 10 seconds in the sun and to get to tell their own story. But there is another fad on deconstruction and that is being anti-deconstruction and deconstruction just becomes, deconstruction just becomes the latest Reds under the bed, you know, or it's the latest, you know, watch out for

Rob Hill or I mean, the latest thing is, you know, female scholars like Kristen Dumez, Beth Allison Barr, Amy Bird, don't read them because they're doing sociology and sociology leads to deconstruction and deconstruction leads to dancing or, you know, whatever, whatever the thing is going to be. So there's, there's two fads. Some people want to claim the limelight of being one of the deconstructors. And then there are those who want to be the anti deconstruction vigilantes, theological vigilantes who want to say, watch out for these deconstructors with all their sociology

and they're calling out political loyalties and that kind of stuff. So there's two sides to that fad. And that's what your article is addressing. I remember that. Yeah, the two kind of two sides. It wasn't one of the critiques that all these people deconstructing or encouraging deconstruction, they're not biblical scholars, and therefore we should be suspicious or something along those lines? Is that an accurate

summary of some of the concerns with deconstruction? Yeah, I mean, the concern is that the deconstruction is being buoyed on by some of these people writing about the sociology of religion. So when someone points to you how these conservative evangelical networks are about religion, they're about networks, being on the conference circuit, political connections, how they do their fundraising, how they hide their fundraising, and a a certain type and how they're more influenced by cultural tropes than they are by the Bible. I don't even know if you're talking about the religious right or the religious left, like everything you said there applies to.

Well, yeah, yeah. I mean, it could well apply both ways. But when people start exposing that to show, look, you know, everything you were told like was biblical actually was part of a cultural thing, that makes the heads of the cultural tribes nervous. Because if you've written a book saying like all the things women can't do, women can't be police officers, women can't give piano lessons to men, you know, women, maybe they could kind of run their own Bible studies, maybe. Like, if you've written a whole book like that, and that's, you know, and you've

gone on the speaking circuit and done it, and you've been promoting in your church, and you realize this has got nothing to do with the Bible at all. This is just a certain type of patriarchy. And you can come up, I'm sure you can come up with progressive versions of the same thing. But it's when you realize that Jesus was, it was not about Jesus. Jesus was just the icon for, was just the symbol for the product, kind of like, you know, the golden M M for McDonald's or the kind of five rings for the Olympics or the apple with a bite out of it. But Apple, you realize Jesus was just the icon for a product that had nothing to do with him. That's where I think the dissonance kicks in and the deconstruction.

That's a great segue to get back into Jesus since we are talking about primarily the Christmas story. In fact, I just titled this series The Scandal of Christmas. one and two and kind of the upside down socioeconomic upheaval of a king being born in a manger against the backdrop of Augustus and is it Quirinius or whoever was mentioned at the beginning of Luke two? You've got the priest and Mary contrast in Luke one. You have the power dynamics in Matthew one and two. So I would love to hear from you, Dr. Bird. As you think about the Christmas story, in particular, maybe certain elements that have been maybe more lost on popular imagination in evangelical retellings of the Christmas story. What's an angle you want to take here? Well, I think Mary was a borderline Marxist. I mean, if you read the

Magnificat, you know, I mean, have you heard any Christmas hymns about, you know, God has brought down the mighty on the thrones, he's raised up the humble, he has sent the rich away hungry? You ever sung any Christmas hymns about that, man? Because that's what Mary was into, you know, that's what she celebrates. That's what she celebrates. Yes, I know. I mean, that there is a big theme of reversal. Okay. The first will be last, the last will be first, that the kingdom of God brings a reordering of power. And that's in Mary's song, the Magnificat.

And that's a big theme of Christmas as well. The other thing that stood out to me when I read through Luke's infancy narrative, particularly all the songs that people sing, you know, the Magnificat, the Benedictus, a really big theme is the theme of God's mercy. That's what really stands out. I mean, several times they mention, you know, God has had mercy on his people. Okay. And that's when I think of Christmas, when I think, you know, particularly in light of Luke, I think of this great reversal. That the kingdom of God is meant to upend things, not just values, but even meant to upend the economic order. And there's a big emphasis on the theme of God's mercy.

God has remembered his promises to the patriarch. He's looked down on the lowly and he has had mercy upon them. So Christmas, according to Mary would be Marxism and mercy. Well, let me, let me just to be clear for the, for the,

for the listeners, I'm not actually a Marxist. This is said a little bit tongue in cheek. Just in case I do get some rabid emails. I think there's a – I'm thinking freely here, so just be aware. I would see a difference between some of the primary economic principles that go into traditional Marxism versus how Marxism as a complete political ideology has been implemented. I mean, clearly in Luke and Acts, really, there is a leveling of the economic playing field. There are economic desires and drives and values that would correlate to some extent with what Karl Marx was hoping for. I think. I'm not a Marxist expert or whatever. But then you take how Marxism has been implemented as a political, sociological way of ruling over a country that's been disastrous obviously i mean that's not yeah

disputed but oh yeah i agree i agree um i'm not a big fan of north korea or cuba or anything like that i i definitely i don't look at cuba and think yeah gotta get me some of that. No, I mean, I don't think Mary's talking about the state seizing the means of production and ending the privatization of all property. But the idea of a reordering of power and that lifts up the poor and brings the uber rich down, that is in the hymn. That's biblical. That's just right there. That is biblical. Yeah.

Exactly. Now, I don't think that necessarily means you have to buy into a Marxist. And there's different types of Marxism. You can be an economic Marxism, which means that you focus on an equal redistribution of resources. redistribution of resources. So you have things like, you know, public housing, or you have a tax system that leads to a distribution of income through things like tax credits, okay? And you can even talk about certain Marxist influences on the social democrats, which is, you know, which is, I mean, it's more of a socialism in a democratic format rather than the sort of revolutionary Marxism that forms a kind of authoritarian epicenter which does everything. But, I mean, there's all different types of Marxism anyway. But the idea of having a kind of social equality and inversion of power,

that's definitely biblical. And that's at the heart of one of the things that the kingdom of God brings. It really does affect the economic order. Interesting, too, in the book of Revelation, there is a big emphasis on economics. Don't do business with Babylon. Don't trade goods or do commerce with Babylon the Great. And that economic aspect often gets played down because we want to focus on the spiritual tropes or the spiritual insights. But the book of Revelation, much like Mary's Magnificat, has got a lot to say about the economics of the kingdom of God and what it means to do business with mammon, what it means to have true covenant righteousness in your economics.

And the book of Revelation has its own Christmas story. We often think of Luke 1 and 2, Matthew 1 and 2, John 1 typically isn't seen as a Christmas story per se. Mark, it's basically non-existent or largely non-existent. But the book of Revelation gives us another angle, doesn't it? Do you want to speak about that a little bit? It does, man. I think it is the best angle. Okay.

Now, imagine this for a nativity scene. Imagine you're walking through all these houses and everyone's got like their little baby Jesus in a manger. baby Jesus in a manger. And then you come past one house where there's a pregnant woman in the throes of childbirth, with her legs open, ready to expel a baby out of the birth canal. And there, in front of the woman, is this massive redhead, not redhead, red dragon, redhead, not redhead, red dragon, ready to devour the baby the minute it's expelled from the womb. Okay. But before the dragon can, an angel comes down and then lifts the baby up and takes it up to heaven. Imagine a nativity scene that looks like that. It looks like a scene from like Lord of the Rings. But this is actually biblical because if you go to Revelation 12, this is exactly what is portrayed. Where you've got a woman clothed with the sun.

I think this woman is either the Jewish community or it's at least the Messianic community. It's not Mary. It's about Mary. She's representing Israel, not Mary in particular. Well, you could have a little bit of Mariology here if you really wanted to. So to all your Catholic friends, I will give permission to read a little bit of Mariology here. But I think I think the woman, Mary, at least represents Israel or the Messianic community. She's going to give birth to a male child who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.

That's a quote from Psalm 2, which we know is very often taken in a Messianic psalm. The dragon wants to devour the baby, but before the dragon can, the child is snatched up to God into his throne. And the woman then goes into the wilderness and she's taken care by God. And then the next thing we have is a battle in heaven between Michael. You know, it's good because Michael's always on the side of the angels. I like that because my name is Michael. Michael fights with the dragon, who is Satan or the devil. He's cast down to earth with all of his wicked angels, and they want to make war against the woman. But there's also a big proclamation in heaven that the salvation and power

and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Messiah has come. And there's a big celebration and the saints triumph by the blood and the lamb. But the dragon still wants to make war against the woman who here, I think, represents the church. And then that's the continuing battle. So this is the Christmas scene in an apocalyptic perspective. This is using apocalyptic language and imagery to describe the birth of the Messiah, you know, as one who is destined to defeat the dragon, which represents all the evil in the world, whether that's cosmic, spiritual, or imperial, all of the evil in the world represented by the dragon and its quest to destroy the child and the messianic community.

That's what Christmas is about. God's Christ and God's people stand against the dragon. I haven't heard that Christmas message preached often. I think we found a business, Mike, because I googled Revelation 12 nativity set. If there was one in existence, I was going to order this right now. Mary, leg spread, seven-headed dragon waiting outside. Michael, somewhere. That would be a BA nativity set.

I don't think it exists. So I think you and I need to start a woodworking business where we're carving PG-13. We need a 3D printer. Yeah. We need a 3D printer. There we go. I don't know. I mean, could you get Chris to kind of like dress up as Mary

and put her in a childbirth pose and like maybe take some photos and then do like a 3D printing? I don't know. I could ask. I could ask. You should model for that. Yeah, be able to stand in for Mary. Wouldn't that be

a conversation starter? Somebody walks into your house. It's, you know, December 20th. You're having a Christmas party and they see this nativity set. It's like, what the heck is that? Oh, let me tell you about Revelation 12. Yeah, exactly.

I think it's, I mean, this is the thing where people would go like, what the heck? Like, you know, a pregnant woman with a dragon in front of her. And, yeah, I mean, I think that would make people go, what's this got to do with Christmas? It seems more like a kind of something from J.R. Tolkien or maybe Stephen King or Quentin Tarantino or something weird like that. But no, but it's about the defeat of evil. It's about God against the godless empires of the world and how the church is in the midst of that battle, okay, between God and the idolatrous empires of the age.

So you're saying the dragon and the kind of spiritual warfare theme in Revelation 12 isn't simply the demonic powers as an isolated thing. You're intertwining it with political powers too, an empire. And it's the dragon and the beast, like it's Satan and Rome. It's current empires today, name them as you want. So can you expand on that a little more, how the spiritual powers of darkness are intertwined with present day, real material empires? or intertwined with present-day real material empires? Well, in the Book of Revelation, I think the beast is the Roman emperor, or at least the imperium, the sort of the powers, the entourage,

the apparatus of empire, I think is the beast. The false prophet is the imperial cult. Because as we both know, Preston, the Roman emperor was in diverse ways worshipped and venerated as a god. Now, sometimes this could be very tokenistic. You just stick up an image of the emperor somewhere and throw a pinch of incense to some fire to say, hey, thank you, Caesar, for all the good things you've done. Or you like to build a temple for him and you do annual sacrifices. Or you could put a small altar to the emperor in one of the bigger temples. So like in Ephesus, you could have an altar to the emperor inside the temple to the goddess Artemis or something like that. So there's different ways of venerating the emperor.

But this was a big thing. And being part of that was kind of like the way you showed loyalty to the empire. And if you were loyal enough, you could embed yourself in the pyramid of power and patronage that could benefit you. OK, and so it's kind of it. And so it's kind of a system. It's religious, it's political, it's economic, it's relational. It's about, you know, networks of patronage and honor, turning up to the right festivals, you know, saying all the right things, having the right connections.

It's a system like that. it's a system like that and against that entire system it is bound up with this cosmic satanic evil okay and this is why i love the book of revelation because most of the stuff we have about the roman empire is written by the romans telling them how great they are. I mean, you know, we went to Scotland. We brought culture. We brought Latin civilization, okay? But the Book of Revelation tells us what the Roman Empire looks like from those who have its boot on their throat, okay? So it looks like what the empire looks like from the side of the oppressed and it looks like a a a cartel okay backed by satanic powers i mean that that's the nature of the empire uh that as at least as

the christians experienced it during that time it's it's got it's it's powered by satanic forces, and it is ravenous. It can never be satisfied or sated. It simply needs to devour everything in its path, and there's no level of cruelty it will not revert from. What I find fascinating, and this is not, I'm preaching to the choir here, but how much of the language, the otherwise spiritual language of the New Testament was implicitly, sometimes explicitly denouncing that whole imperialistic way of seeing things, right? Like even the term gospel, the good news, that was, I mean, it originated in Deutero-Isaiah, Isaiah 40 and so on. But it also was very common in Greco-Roman rhetoric, venerating the emperor, the Caesar. Yeah, definitely. The peace. Yeah, it was a big part of it. Kingdom, peace, gospel, good news. Peace and security.

Peace and security. All these themes that are so common to the New Testament were a backhanded critique of the sociopolitical powers of the day. I don't think our gospel today, at least in my American context, appreciates that political edge. Well, I think it does, but it depends. One thing I've noted is that whenever there's a Republican in the White House, the Society of Biblical Literature always has really good sessions on Paul and empire. So whenever there's a Republican, the biblical scholars become anti-Empire. Yes, anti-the American Empire, anti-the Roman Empire. But when there's a Democrat in the White House, then all the anti-imperial critiques kind of get muted.

Well, that's when they become more Nibirian. Oh, yes, of course, the church can work with the state towards common goals and common cause. But when there's a Republican in the White House, no, we're against empire. Jesus is against empire. Paul's against empire. I do find American scholars can be very selective about how anti-imperial Christianity is, depending on who occupies the White House in any given time. Rather than the whole system itself is intrinsically not, I don't know, well, kind of opposed. I mean, is not on the same playing field as the kingdom of God. Do you, how much can we map the first century context?

And you spent enough time in America where I can specifically ask your thoughts on American Christianity. How much can we map the first century context onto today's context? Because I've gotten, sometimes, you know, I've made flippant comparisons between Rome and America or whatever, or Babylon and America. And people are like, oh, it's not the same thing. I'm like, well, I never said it was the same thing, but there are a lot of similarities, and I don't know how much overlap there is. Yeah. I mean, since the Second World War, I mean, you could argue, well, at least since the end of the Cold War, America has had nearly unrivaled military supremacy.

And they've been able to swing their political influence around the world, intervene in the world, like their interventions in places like Iran, in Indonesia, in Guatemala. And a lot of the times it's ended very badly. It's ended very badly for the local country. It's also ended badly for America and America's interests. So America has acted with some naked imperialism, often driven by their own economics or foreign policy interests, and not necessarily acted as good global citizens. Now, let me say, I love America, by the way. This is the land that invented Chick-fil-A.

Now, let me say, I love America, by the way. This is the land that invented Chick-fil-A. So I am naturally a big fan of America. I believe there is good in the American nation, the American people. But America definitely has acted often like a hostile empire and been nakedly self-interest. So in that sense, and this is bothans and democrats who have done this america has acted like one of the evil empires of the world like an assyria like a babylon but you know i would also say america is not the only version of this if you look at the way um china acts okay um around the world at the moment i mean and china and China has two foreign policy tools, which is bribery and threats.

That's basically their two levers of foreign policy. You know, China is now an empire which is extending itself into places like Iran, Pakistan. They're doing a lot of things in Burma. For you guys, China is the Far East, but for Australia, China is the Near North. So, you know, it is something we are very concerned about, what kind of hegemony China's going to exercise. And given what it does to its own people, it's a little bit scary to contemplate what it would do to the people of other nations. So, you know, so empires can sometimes do some good things, but more often than not, empires tend to be driven by greed and they make great use of violence. And, you know, look what the British did with the East India Company and, you know, what they did in India. I mean, what they did in Afghanistan back in the 19th century, you know, all the way through to the opium wars in China.

Generally where you have an empire, you will have greed, you will have violence, and it will all be done with a great sense of patriotism as well. And you have to say America has been there as well. What about – I don't disagree with you, but I'm going to try to put myself in the shoes of a critic. Yes, there's been sort of collateral damage. Yes, the CIA has done some shady stuff in Iran and other Central American countries and other places, but the intention is always to be fighting against a more evil regime, you know, terrorists in the Middle East or, you know, what's the Mogadishu, the Black

Hawk Down, you know, there was all kinds of evil going on there. We tried to intervene and that went south. Yeah, there are still much more evil mini empires or regimes that America is trying to combat. And if America didn't exist, those other more evil regimes would run wild. Yes and no, Preston. Every case is different. Every case is different. But, you know, for example, the American interventions in Iran, I think in the 1950s that kept the shah in power

the disaster okay so the shah was was a disaster and the shah became so bad it led to the 1979 revolution and and you could argue if if america did not intervene in ir in the 1950s, if they let things take their course, then you would never have had the Iranian revolution of 1979. The Shah could have been dispensed with through democratic processes or through a more popular movement. But no, the U.S. wanted to prop up the Shah and help crush the opposition. US wanted to prop up the Shah and help crush the opposition. And eventually, through a whole bunch of other merging forces, you ended up with the 1979 Iranian revolution, which then had all sorts of consequences across the Middle East. So, I mean, that for me, I think Iran is one good example of how American intervention and it was nakedly self-interest.

I mean, they were interested in getting good deals for, you know, American companies when it comes to oil and keeping a certain price on oil in the market. So it was self-interest. It was interventionist. I mean, you know, when America does things like defend Kuwait from being invaded by Iraq, you know, that was a good thing. You know, you could argue.

You know, so I'm not saying everything, or, you know, defending South Korea when North Korea invaded. You know, there are some good things that America does. So Gulf War I, I thought was a good idea. It was a, or at least it was a legitimate war, whereas Gulf War II, I thought, was an illegitimate war. So you could make a good case that America has done a lot of good around the world. So I don't believe it is the worst of everything. But you have to say that America has behaved in many ways like some of the evil empires of history. Well, even Rome, you could probably make the same case for Rome, that not every single militaristic venture was purely driven out of evil motives. I don't know enough about Roman military practices, but I do know enough about Roman culture that there was some

moral values in Roman culture. I mean, they made adultery illegal, didn't they? I mean, they made adultery like illegal, didn't they? I mean, there were certain values in the Roman regime that wouldn't be just purely intrinsically evil. And yet the whole system as a whole, we would see is profoundly problematic on so many levels, but doesn't mean every single thing they did is evil. What about the difference of like democracy, that America is a democracy, whereas the Roman Empire was not? This is a big critique I get of, you know, we have the power as people to vote and change things, whereas somebody living in the Roman Empire didn't. And so that's a huge difference. Yeah, the fact that America is a democracy is a good thing, and it does obviously set it apart from other empires across the ages. As to how well your democracy works, I would refer you to a recent federal election, presidential election, which does raise some questions about how people in your own country trust the democratic system and processes because democracy only works if you have the consent of the loser and in your last election the loser did not consent to his loss and he did

everything he could um nakedly self-interested and also you know whipping up mobs to um even even basically lynch his own vice president. So you can raise some big questions about how functional the American democracy is, and then you've got people trying to make it harder to get voter rights. Then you've got issues of gerrymandering. Then you've got the influence of lobbyists on both left and right. on both left and right? You know, how much is, you know, the oil industry, the energy industry, pharmaceutical industry,

the gun industry, the abortion industry? How much influence do these people have in Washington? Because that influence is not coming from the voters. So at one level, yes, it is, America is a democracy, but there's a lot of footnotes that you have to put in there to say that there are certain things that complicate about how transparent and whether the will of the people is really being done. Now, every democratic country, can I say, will have a similar suite of issues. We don't have a presidential system. We have a Westminster parliamentarian system. But we also have complexities of our own democratic system in Australia. There are certain corruptions in Australia.

What really bugs me is the influence of the gambling lobby in Australia. is the influence of the gambling lobby in Australia. So, you know, and both parties, left and right are pretty much beholden to the gambling lobby. And it really is perverse. So every party's got its own sort of idiosyncrasies, particularly even if they're democracies. The challenge is to get a pure or a transparent and just democracy where you actually have that rule of the people, not rule by the people with the permission of an oligarchy or is backed by a plutocracy or a kleptocracy or something like that. But there's different ways of doing democracy, and some are going to be, I think, a bit more transparent and a bit fairer than others.

That's good. That's good. Let's bring it back to the Christmas story. In light of what you said about Revelation 12 and kind of everything we're saying about how politics, socioeconomic power, status, economics as a whole is kind of wrapped up into the backdrop of the birth of Jesus. What is the scandal then of Christmas, the Christmas story in light of that? Yeah, we want to think that the Christmas story is about all Jesus, meek and mild, coming into the world. But the reason why Christ is born is to defeat the dragon. Okay.

And it raises a challenge. It raises a question. On whose side am I on? Am I with the Messiah on Sunday, but I'm working for the dragon the other six days a week? Are my values shaped by the beast and the false prophet? Are there other idolatries that I am secretly beholden to, things I've hidden in my heart? Now, whether that is empire or pornography, what are the elements of my own life and heart that are still under the sway of the dragon, okay? And am I really standing

with the saints? Do I really believe I have triumphed by the blood of the lamb? And am I all in for the lamb who was against the dragon? And this is what it comes down to. Are you with the dragon or are you with the lamb? Because if you had to pick, you know, a kind of a battle royale between a dragon and a lamb, you'd probably pick the dragon. The dragon, from all appearances, looks like it's definitely going to win. It's going to be a complete mismatch. But those who really know the story that the lamb who was slain is the one who has triumphed. He has defeated the dragon. He's going to throw down the false prophet and the beast. And our challenge is to remain loyal, or as John says, to remain loyal

to the testimony of Jesus and to entrust ourselves to the faithfulness of the Christ child. That's what I think the challenge of Easter is, to do a kind of personal check on our loyalties, you know, and look at the areas of our life, mental life, spiritual life, economic life, relationships, and make sure we are in for the triumph of the lamb, of his course, his symbols, his story, the way of life he calls us to live. And we're not doing something on side for the beast. So if somebody came to you and said, Mike, you're in charge of our Christmas Eve service. You can do whatever you want. What are some practical things, ecclesial, liturgical things that we can do in the upcoming weeks of Christmas to maybe tap into some of these less than tapped into themes to really drive this home for the church today? Because you're a man of the church. I mean, you're obviously a scholar, but you're also a man of the church through and through.

church through and through um because i i often find that like our rhythms of easter and christmas i don't know like they're not bad but they're not they don't reflect some of the scandal of christmas that i think god wants us to really embody so what yeah what would you do christmas service so what would you do well my my challenge is and this is what i've often thought about is try do something different to what everyone else is doing. I mean, maybe you've got a tradition because you do this every year, but maybe one year, rather than have Joseph and Mary and the baby in the manger, try having the papier-mâché dragon and the whip. Try something different that will make people think. The other thing, I mean, there are some typical things you do. In our family, we enjoy lighting candles during the Advent season.

I like watching, there's a couple of good Christmas movies I like to watch with the family. In terms of a church, maybe during the Advent season, do some readings through Luke 1 to 2, okay, something like that. Maybe, you know, you could, you know, even ask some church members, you know, not just the kids, but, you know, if you've got any artists in your church to create your own church art about the Advent season and try to bring in some different perspectives, you know, all those sorts of things. In terms of liturgy, I still think the Book of Common Prayer has got some really good stuff you can use. You can go through standard lectionaries that usually give you a series of readings. And some of the great prayers you also get in the prayer book about things to pray during the Christmas period. One of the, if we go back to our deconstruction thing, one of the things I've been seeing is a lot of people leaving the kind of

non-denominational evangelical churches, you know the ones where everything's painted black, you've got the worship leader with a really bad Hebrew tattoo, you get two songs, quick intro, really cheesy clip, the main package, then the kind of mini giving sermon, and then the sending out of the people after some announcements. Rather than do that, mix it up. You know, people are deconstructing, and a lot of them are going to liturgical churches because they're tired of the – I mean, the media look good, but it was often shadow. It was repetitive and it was stale.

So my advice is go discover some liturgy somewhere. Now, maybe that's going to be Anglican. Maybe it'll be Lutheran. Maybe it'll be Catholic. Maybe it'll be Greek Orthodox. You know, read a sermon from John Chrysostom from John 1. You know, do something like that. But there are so many things you can do to mix it up at Christmas to, you know, introduce some new things to your congregation. Now, that's a danger because some people like the way you do it every year.

And if you change one single thing, they'll get very grumpy. But I think introducing a bit of diversity into the diet, into your worship diet, your preaching diet, the way you're doing church services at this time, I think you'll really challenge people, edify them, and give them maybe a whole new insight into what the Advent season is about. And it's not about just the food, the presents, the cake. It's about the triumph of the lamb and the dragon has been thrown down. That's awesome.

I love that. The church I attend now in Boise, the Calvary Chapel Boise, we actually started going to this church because we went to a Christmas Eve service there last year. And they had worship in, I think, four or five different languages. They had scripture reading in Swahili, French, English, Spanish, and Arabic. It was so intentionally multi-ethnic. And it so captured even the spirit of things like Matthew 2, where you have the foreign magi who are paying more attention to this Jewish Messiah than the Jewish-ish, Jewish-ish leader, Herod the Great and others. And I just thought it was, I was like blown away because I was like, man, that's going to disrupt people's comfortability, comfortableness,

like their expectations of, no, this is not how we've always done it. I don't understand Arabic. But I was fascinated because afterwards I talked to the leaders and said, hey, did you get a lot of flack for that? Are people that didn't have their traditional English-only service? And they were like, it was the best feedback we've ever gotten. And in Calvary Chapel, I don't know if you know, they're typically pretty conservative, patriotic kind of denomination as a whole so they were they were really going against some thick grain of their tradition and all that to say my whole point is i think there is an actual there's a surfacy desire for the way we've always done it but i think especially now i think there is a a thick boredom of christianity and it's not Jesus. You can't get bored of Jesus,

but you can get really bored with Christian culture that just becomes stale and stagnant and boring, really. So I don't know. Any Christian leader listening, I would encourage them to take a risk and try to dive deeper into some of the less than popular themes of the Christmas story. And I think your people probably appreciate it. I'm going to get some emails for that. Yeah, I think even just discover some really good Christmas prayers or some, I don't know, lighting of candles or whatever it is. If you do a bit of work and ask other people from churches they've been to

what kind of different traditions that they have, things that are going to remind us of the story, encourage us with the hope. And remember, as Mary sings about, this is about God in mercy. God has visited us in his mercy. That never grows old. That never grows tired. So find diverse ways of telling the story. Mike, I'm going to have to let you go in a couple minutes, but what are you working on these days? What's

going on in the bird, the bird world? Oh, so many things, so many things. I, my next book coming out is called Religious Freedom in a Secular Age. Uh, since we're having, we're having a lot of debates about religious freedom in Australia, you know, what does it mean for Christian schools? What does it mean for, like, you know, can you discriminate against LGBT people in hiring? What are the limits of religious freedom? Is it just a, you know, like a big stick against minorities? You know, what does it mean for our multiculturalism? What does it mean for all the

other laws that we have? So that's a big debate in Australia. So I've got a book coming out commentating on both the Australian and American context of religious freedom debates. And basically what I'm arguing is that religious freedom is a good thing. And if you have a good version of secularism, that's going to help you out a lot. So it's about a healthy version of secularism that will give you good religious freedom and also stop a bad versions of civil religion. So that's one project I've got coming out. And I'm doing another big, more academic book on early Christology in the context of the Greco-Roman world. So how was Jesus similar and how was Jesus different to all those various intermediary figures we know about, like the Son of Man in 1 Enoch, Hercules, the angel of the Lord, or a deified emperor? So I've got a few different things I'm working on, religious freedom and Christology in the ancient world.

Hercules. Joey talked to me about the parallels between Jesus and Hercules. I had not known that at all. There's some similarities there, right? Yeah. Yeah. They both had long hair and they were both pretty ripped. They were buff.

I mean, Jesus, the guy was probably a stonemason. He had to lift heavy stones. He wasn't this kind of like a little weakly thing you'd think would break in half if he'd fallen over. I reckon the brother was buff. Well, so I just talked to Keener about the meaning of tectone there. He doesn't quite say stone. Well, he says a builder. the meaning of tectone there. He doesn't quite say stone.

He says a builder. This is fascinating. He said that right around the time of Jesus that Sepphoris had burned down. That's four miles away from Nazareth. There was a need for builders to rebuild the city, which would have been primarily out of stone, but there was also wood rafters. He, as he typically does,

went into insane detail about you know first century building projects and galilee and the first you know whatever but um so so we don't know 100 is a stone mason but definitely a worker with his hands probably some kind of architectural builder you agree with that when josh mcdowell wrote his book more than a carpenter it became basically canon that he was a carpenter. Oh, really? Is that how it got there? It just means one who works with hands.

Right. So it means a builder. And that can be out of woodwork, stone. But, yeah, I think if you're rebuilding a town in the aftermath of it being burned down, you normally need a lot of stone, a lot of wood, a lot of mortar, whatever you do. And if you do a lot of that, you get pretty strong. You're pretty buff, yeah. I could use some of that. Yeah. Thank the Lord for gyms. Keep up on my stone. You don't surf anymore, Preston? What's that?

Is there no beaches for surfing in Idaho? No. We have river surfing, but snowboarding season is upon us, so that's my big passion right now. But no, I do this all day, man. I sit behind a desk staring at a computer screen. I build it into my routine that i you know most days i have to get out and do something otherwise i might as well be smoking three packs of cigarettes a day sitting at a desk all day i mean it's just so unhealthy so

yeah no surfing though unfortunately yeah i hit a i hit a tennis ball against the back of a basketball stadium three times a week that's about my that's my workout say me versus me versus the wall i used to run until i broke my ankle running half a mile away from your house in melbourne yes shattered it that actually no i didn't break it i tore every single ligament stepping off a curb at the bus stop on that main road. Is it, um, I forgot the name. King's High. Georgia Street. Georgia Road. Yes. Yes. Yes. Right there. Ruined it forever. That's right. So you came, you came to Australia fearful of the crocodiles and the snakes,

and it was actually the curb that got you. You guys have so many animals that will kill you. Box jellyfish? Oh my word. So we went swimming up at Cairns, right? And they had these little, they're like, hey, the box jellyfish are out. So we have these only swim in the designated netted swim areas. And because they say very cat, the Australians are so casual, like, yeah, box jellyfish, if you get hit with a stinger, are so casual like yeah you know box jellyfish if you get hit you know with a stinger you'll go into cardiac or a cardiac arrest and you'll die and so don't do that i'm like wait wait wait if i get touched by a jelly i'm gonna die like yeah yeah but we have nets we have nets that will keep you safe like okay so who i want the name and phone number of the last person that went underneath

and inspected these nets how do you know there's not a hole in these nets? Cause I've got deadly jellyfish five feet away from me. That it's being prevented from killing me, my whole family with a net that who's inspected this net. And then they said, don't go close to the shore because a saltwater crocodile could jump out and snatch you up and kill you within seconds. I'm like, wait,

wait, you just casually telling me. You guys are crazy. Well, dude, if you want, if you want to go to cans, man, if you want to have a holiday in cans in Northern Australia, that's where you go. But I mean, people, people tell me Australia's, I mean, Australia's dangerous, but man, I've, I've walked around parts of America and I mean, there are some places in America that look like they're about two weeks away from the Hunger Games. And so I'll take the number of crocodile deaths versus the number of gun deaths in America. Trust me, I'll take my chances on a beach in Cairns rather than on the south side of Chicago after 9 p.m. any time of the week.

Fair enough. Fair enough. South Central LA is not a place to be. You have that bird. What's that big bird that if it pecks you in the chest and it'll pierce your heart? It's like a big, I don't want to say emu. It's something. Not emu. Emu sounds like a cow you bought on

the internet i bought an emu uh we call it an emu emu an emu an emu emu okay well okay okay it's very similar not an emu that's like a that's like an equack or an or an e-oink yeah we we were we were hiking in the jungle we were going to go hiking in the jungle and our our very gracious uh landlord our airbnb guy said well just watch out for these emus or whatever because if they you know if they attack you they'll kill you i'm like wait i'm gonna get killed by a bird okay so what do i do he says just yeah just i wouldn't go hiking basically like don't stick to the main roads you got a you got a worse chance of being um attacked by a kangaroo the emus will normally run the kang the kangaroos if you if you if you want to have a good laugh, look up the Emu War, how Australia went to war with the emus and lost. I'll check that out.

There's a video about the famous Emu War where the Australian government tried to massacre all the emus, but they lost and the emus won. Oh, I don't doubt it. Wow. Let alone snakes. Just so you know, Australia is still probably my favorite country. I love, love, love. I love the people and culture of Australia. I just – you're my people.

You guys are honest. You're – and this is a generalization, I'm sure. But just like you'll speak your mind, but you're not jerks about it. You're kind, but not – you're not going to be passive aggressive. You'll just, I don't know. You're just a very honest, fun-loving, fun group of people in my very anecdotal experience. It was great to hear. Great to hear. All right, man. Hey, I've taken enough of your time. So Merry Christmas to you. Blessings on your many academic adventures.

And keep writing, man. I love everything you write is always super thoughtful and engaging. So yeah, I wish you many blessings in your writing adventures. All right. Thank you, Preston. Thank you for all your listeners and a great advent for you, your family, and everyone who listens to the podcast. Thank you. you