Theology in the Raw - S9 Ep944: Parenting LGBTQ Kids

Episode Date: February 7, 2022

Mark is a Born and bred Texan. He came to Jesus at age 22 and will celebrate his 50th anniversary of being “in Christ” on February 17, 2022. He’s been married to Vicki for 47 years, 2 children, 6 grandchildren, and he practiced oil and gas law for 45 years and retired in December of 2020.  Mark’s daughter came out as a lesbian over a decade ago and they’ve maintained a wonderful, loving relationship through it all. Mark has gleaned a wealth of experiential knowledge about how to love, even in the midst of theological disagreement. Theology in the Raw Conference - Exiles in Babylon At the Theology in the Raw conference, we will be challenged to think like exiles about race, sexuality, gender, critical race theory, hell, transgender identities, climate change, creation care, American politics, and what it means to love your democratic or republican neighbor as yourself. Different views will be presented. No question is off limits. No political party will be praised. Everyone will be challenged to think. And Jesus will be upheld as supreme. Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out Dr. Sprinkle’s website prestonsprinkle.com Stay Up to Date with the Podcast Twitter | @RawTheology Instagram | @TheologyintheRaw If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I have on the show today Mark Leverton. Mark is a born and bred Texan. He's married to his wife, Vicki. They have two kids, several grandkids. And several years ago, one of their daughters came out as a lesbian, and Mark and Vicki are both theologically conservative Christians. And, that presented a challenge to the relationship. But man, as you will hear, Mark has a heart of gold and he has done a fantastic job navigating this relationship with his wonderful daughter. Now, I got to know Mark a couple of years ago because he has helped us with a project that we have recently produced called Parenting LGBTQ Kids. When I say we, I mean we at the Center for Faith, Sexuality, and Gender, this ministry that I help run. And over the last year, we have put our heart and soul into producing a video-based discipleship resource to help Christian parents embody both the grace and truth of Jesus toward their LGBTQ

kids. So if this is you, if you're a parent, your kids come out as gay, lesbian, trans, bi, and you're asking the question, how can I hold true to what I believe the Bible says about marriage and same-sex sexuality and gender identity? But how can I love my child the way Jesus would? If you're in that space, then I want you to check out this resource. We created this for you. So if you go to parentinglgbtqkids.com, parentinglgbtqkids.com, all the info is in the show notes,

you can take advantage of a pre-order discount on this project. We release it on February 28th. So from now until February 28th, if you pre-order Parenting LGBTQ Kids, you'll get a discount on that resource. Okay. So let's get to know the one and only Mark Leverton and let's hear him talk about how awesome Jesus is and how Jesus has been so present in his relationship with his daughter. All right. Hey, friends, I'm here with my friend from a distance, Mark Leverton. Mark, thanks so much for being on Theology on the Rock. Great to be here. I was just telling you offline that you're part of this parenting LGBT kids project that

me and my associates have been involved with for a while now. And I've spent the last couple months watching video after video after video, editing and editing. And, and, and so I feel like I've seen you tell your story so many times. I feel like if this cuts out, I could probably just tell it for you, but for our audience that hasn't had the pleasure of editing these videos, why don't you tell us your story and how, um, how you, how you became a parent of an LGBTQ child. Well, I'll tell you, this is a great privilege to be here to talk to you. You know, one of the things I admire so much about you, Preston, is in listening to Theology on the Raw, which I have for many years, the people you have on are not the folks you would assume that a Christian guy like you,

conservative Christian guy like you would have on. And, you know, my wife Vicki and I have listened to podcasts, and we're going, I cannot believe that he's having her on Theology and the Rock. But I'm a lot like that. I love to hear what other people are thinking, people that have maybe a different viewpoint than I do, and particularly when it deals with LGBT issues. And it's wonderful.

I enjoy it. But my story is not unique. It's happening in the church. It's not unique. It's happening in the church. To have a daughter or son dealing with LGBTQ issues, whether it's being gay or transgender, all the things in between, is particularly hard on Christian parents because we've come from a culture that says and tells us that is the absolutely worst thing that could ever happen to you as a parent. You know, I think about how coming up, you know,

growing up because so much of that's enculturated. It's not necessarily taught. It's just part of our culture. So we knew that our daughter, who is one of the most wonderful individuals I've ever known, and that's something to talk about your own daughter that way, but she's been anointed by God and still anointed to lead worship, singer-songwriter, was in full-time Christian ministry after she left Texas A&M. I've said it many times. When I hear her lead worship, there's no one that takes me to the throne of grace like she does. She just brings me into the presence of God. And that's an anointing. That's a supernatural thing. And that's the context

of who she is. She is one of the funniest people I've ever been around. She makes me laugh. And not many people can make me laugh like she does. She is a lover of people. She reaches out to people. She loves, you know, she's always been the one when she'd be on a soccer team or something and there was a black child on there. They'd become best friends. I mean, that's just the way she was wired. And I learned a lot from her, watching her as a young person reach out to people. And, you know, we knew in her college years that she was dealing with same-sex attraction. And it was one of those things when you find out about it, you go, oh my gosh, what are we going to do?

And so she went to counseling, and she did this on her own. It was something that she did not want to have in her life at that time and went to counseling and I think benefited a lot from it. But some years later, which is about 13 years ago, I found out through someone else that she was in a relationship with another young woman who we knew pretty well. And I was at a conference by myself in a hotel room. My wife was at a church women's retreat.

And I get this call and find out that Lindsay has come out as being gay and is now in a relationship. And I can say it was one of the hardest things I've ever heard in my life. And I was there by myself. I lay there on the bed and I was just shaking. It was a very difficult thing. And I didn't know what to do. I didn't know what to do at all. And I knew this guy who, in fact, married to a woman. He was a man married to a woman and had a neat Christian guy. I knew him through the legal profession. He was a lawyer. And anyway, I was able to call him on the phone because he was married to this woman. And yet he had for a time

lived as a gay man during their marriage and had come back. And just one of the best guys I know. And his name is Mike. And I called Mike and I got him on the phone. I couldn't believe I got him on the phone and I told him all about it. And he said, well, I told him that he, that Lindsay had written a 10 page letter. And he said, well, I can tell you, this is not just a passing thing. This is something really serious. And, and so I said, serious. And so I said, Mike, what do I do? You know, and I was just at that point of thinking, how do you handle this?

And so he said, well, Mark, you love her. And I was like, you mean that's it? I mean, you love her? He said, yes.

And he said, you know what else? You know, her partner? Guess what? You have to love her too. I was like, oh my,

really? Really? And he said, yes. He said, that's what God's called. I was like oh my really really and he said yes he said that's what God's called you to do as a dad and Vicki as a mom is to love

and so you know and it's it's kind of silly why wouldn't I know that would be the thing that you would do you know

it's because the thing that comes through your mind is oh I need to get my Bible out. I've got to start reading those verses. I've got to start trying to convince her, no, you can't do this. That's kind of one of those things that you don't know until you get there. I'll tell you, by God's grace, Mike was there, and it was a blessing. I tell you, by God's grace, Mike was there. And it was a blessing.

I didn't sleep much that night. But I got up the next morning and I go to this conference. Of course, I'm not thinking about anything. I'm an oil and gas logger until I retired. And, you know, I'm like, who gives a rip about all this stuff? You know, I want to know what to do. And so I get through that. I just, I just am calling out to the Lord, you know, it's my, my two, my two word prayer, help Jesus. And I've used that my whole life, you know, and I didn't know what to do, but I wanted to do what he wanted

me to do. And so I got home and Vicki was home and I shared that with her and she, you know, went through the same feelings that I did. And, uh, you know, we were, we were really helped and buoyed by Mike's advice to us. And so we got together with Lindsay and a lot of tears, you know, on all three of us. And, uh, you know, one of the things that's so wonderful about her and the many things that's wonderful about her is that she extends grace to us all the time, love and grace. And so we were able to get off on the right foot. You know, we didn't, we weren't, we didn't have to, you know, step back and go go, sorry, I said that. Although we said a few things that have been hurtful.

Of course we have. But we started our relationship that way. And her partner, we really reached out. But it didn't happen overnight. It took a long time. For me to tell her partner, I love you, took me two years. Well, I don't, I don't, I'm not proud of that. I love you should just flow off my lips. That shouldn't be something I have to think about. And we were able to be around both of them

in a comfortable environment. It was awkward at first for all four of us. And yet we knew this is what God was calling us to do. And yet during this time, we felt really lonely because we couldn't tell anybody. As wonderful as churches are, they're not a safe place to share these things. They're just not. I'm praying that, that they will be at some point. And so we bore that a long time, uh, many, many years. Uh, and I can remember, uh, one of the key moments of my life was, um, uh, it had been probably about a month since we found out about Lindsay.

And I was at work. I needed to run an errand. And before I got in the car, I realized that I didn't have any love left for my daughter. I mean, what a horrible thing as a father to say, I didn't feel it. It wasn't there. And Lindsay and I have always been just like this. I mean, we just have always been, I kind of knew what she was thinking, and we were like that.

And here I was feeling this, and there was such grief and thinking, what kind of dad am I that I would feel that way or not feel that way? And so I got it. But I hear him speak in my heart sometimes. And I tell you, that day I had never had that occur. sometimes. But I'll tell you that day, I had never had that occur. And all of a sudden, I hear very clearly as if it were spoken in the car to someone sitting next to me. And this voice that I knew was God said, Mark, can you imagine what it would be like to be in Lindsay's shoes. And it just cut me to the core. Here I'm driving 65 miles an hour. I have to pull over, put my flashers on.

And you know, the first thing that hit me was why would God say that? Why would God be concerned about my daughter who's doing something that scripturally is not the way God would want her to live? Why would he say, can you imagine what it would be like to be in her shoes? And I'm just so stunned. And I call out loud, I said, God, are you really like that?

Is that who you really are? That you care about my daughter like that? That you're asking me, hey, Mark, can you imagine walking in her shoes? What would that be like? And I just burst into tears. I mean, I was just sitting there, you know, sobbing because it was so overwhelming that God would, number one, would say something to me. I knew it was him. There wasn't a doubt.

I wasn't making it up. It wasn't something I said. And I said, Lord, what am I to do with this? And all of a sudden, I'm sitting here on this freeway, and the car's blowing by 70 miles an hour. And all of a sudden, I get this download. That's the only way I can expose, I mean, can express it. I had this download of love into my heart that was

so palpable. It was something I physically felt. It had come into my heart. I'm sitting there. It almost made me not be able to breathe. It was that kind of a feeling. And I gathered myself together. I decided, I don't think I'm going to go to that whatever I was doing, which I couldn't remember. I turn around and go back to the office. And I'm feeling this something that I don't know what it is. I'm still not sure what happened. I pull up, I park, and we're down, my office is down by the University of Texas.

And there are so many students walk up and down this particular street that goes to the campus. We're three blocks from the campus. And I get out of my car and I turn to the right. And I get out of my car and I turn to the right and coming down the sidewalk are two lesbians holding hands, nuzzling each other, laughing. I mean, it's obvious they were a couple. And before this day, if I had seen that, and I hate to say this, because I hate to say that's who I was, I would have been repulsed.

I would have been put off and repulsed. And I would have turned back the other way. But you know what happened when I saw that? back the other way. But you know what happened when I saw that? I just wanted to go over and grab a hold of them and tell them how much I love them. That in itself just blew me away. And I said to myself, I am not going to start crying when I tell this story, but I can't help it. I knew that that download that I experienced 30 minutes before had changed me at a very profound level. I really wanted to love on those girls because I felt like, I wonder if they have a daddy that loves them and and you know since then uh I've been in different situations like I went to a party where

all of Lindsay's friends were there we were the only two straight people Vicki and I and we we you know in a little bit there was a little awkwardness, but we felt very comfortable because, you know, all of a sudden I saw all these young women as like my daughter. And I can remember one girl came up to me and said, could I tell you something? And I said, sure, sure. And I didn't really know her. And she said, watching you and what Lindsay's told me about you, I just want to tell you, I wish I had a daddy like you. It just, you know, it, it pierced me because I, you know,

all of a sudden we objectified, you know, it, it pierced me because I, you know, all of a sudden we objectified, you know, gay and lesbians and trans people. And we forget that, you know, there's somebody's daughter or son or brother or sister, you know, and that was another thing that just blew me away because I just grabbed her and hugged her and held her. Well, see, the Pharisee that I was before all this happened, and I was a Pharisee, black and white, if the Bible says it, black and white, the Pharisee that I was

would have that hard heart, that judgmental condemning character that I had. On that freeway that day, God just ripped that out of my heart and replaced that with his love. Because, you know, as great a dad as you are, you've got four girls. You have 100 gallons of human love. That's what your tank calls. It's human love. I don't care if you're a Christian or not a Christian. I don't care where you live. You have a hundred gallons of human love and it's a love for your children.

But when a situation happens, you know what happens? All that fuel that you have, that hundred gallons, that a hundred gallons, all of a sudden after a while, there's an empty tank there of human love. As much as you want to, it's gone. And God and his mercy and grace gave me his love that day that has changed my

life. And of course, as so many parents who deal with this Christian parents who do this, like if you had it to do over again, would you wish that your child was not gay and was not dealing with this? And of course these answers would, of course, because I watched her struggle. The easy answer is, of course, because I watched her struggle.

I watched her be told that she was going to hell by leaders of Christian ministries and churches and her friends walking away from her, telling her that they weren't going to have anything to do with her anymore. I watched that pain. And, of course, I felt that pain. And of course I felt that pain too. But if I had the choice, I would say, I wish it wouldn't happen because I would wish she wouldn't have had to gone through that, had to deal with that. But as far as I'm concerned, I wouldn't change a thing because if that had not happened, if she had not come out as gay, I would be that same man that I was prior

to 2009. And because of God's mercy and grace and compassion on my daughter, but on guess who? Me. Because you know what? I was the broken one. I was really broken. I just didn't know it. I thought I had it all together.

I thought I knew all the answers. And yet, because of that, God changed me. And he introduced to me just a little bit of who he is. And what I discovered, much to my shock, was that he's a lover. He just loves people. And just like I watched you, how you love your guests, your gay and lesbian and transgender guests. And so you have that same love, Preston.

That's that love that God has given you. And you get criticized for it. We've been criticized for it. You know, you do because you're going, these people are sinners. What are you doing? And I go, I think it says in the scriptures that Jesus was a friend of sinners, young around sinners. I think I'm going to hang with that group as much as I can, centers. I think I'm going to hang with that group as much as I can, but it changed my life. So, you know, when I look back on all this, and there's been a lot of pain, a lot of suffering, a lot of trial, a lot of sadness, more tears, you know, we've cried, trying to understand what to do with all this. And then feeling this intense loneliness and isolation, because, you know, as a Christian parent, what happens when your child comes out, you go into

the closet. And that's not a good thing, because the church should be a safe place for us to say, hey, I got a problem. I need some help. And, you know, finally we were able to share it. And I'm sorry I'm taking so long, but there's a lot of stuff here I do want to unpack. And tell me to stop talking when you're ready for me to stop talking. You go as long as – yeah, I do have a couple of just questions. So you mentioned 2009. So your daughter came out what 12 13 years ago this it's been a while now 2009 yeah she came out and she and i am curious how

how have you how did you i guess navigate the theological side of this with your daughter because i think you said when she first came out, like she wasn't fully affirming. It was just, this is something she wrestled with and then made that move. And I'm sure that that, you know, probably caused you and Vicky to do some research or whatever. And you ended up still on the traditional side

and she's no longer. How did you navigate that with her? Is it something she kind of figured out on her own? And did that ever cause tension early on? And does it still, you know? Well, it did, you know. And at some points, of course, you both come to the place where you say, you know what, I respect what you believe and you respect what I believe.

That's what you have to come to. And I don't demand that she believes like me. And she does not demand that I believe like their mutual respect. And what happened is she said when she came out and then she, well, you know, we talked about it and she said, would you read a couple of books about this? And I said, because again, I've, I've always been that way. And I said, sure, give me the books. So she gave me a couple of books. These were written by,

one was a Presbyterian pastor. Another one was, I don't remember who it was. And before I read those books, I said, Lord, if I'm wrong in what I believe here, in what I believe here, which I have had then, and I still do have a historical, traditional Christian biblical ethic, you know, concerning sexuality. And I said, but Lord, I want to know if I'm wrong, if I'm off base here because it's been enculturated into me, then show me.

Well, I read those books. And basically what I came to the conclusion of, they were not very helpful. They didn't influence me. I mean, the arguments I thought were pretty flimsy. I didn't agree with them. And, you know, and I, I told Lindsay, I said, honey, I just, I just didn't, I didn't, uh, move my, the needle there on that. And she said, okay, well, I just wanted you to read it. And I did. And, and so at that point we were able to, uh, decide that, you know, I'm not probably going to change the way I look at things.

And I tell you, it'd be a whole lot easier if I was affirming. I mean, it'd be simple. I mean, and yet I understand why parents get to that place and become affirming. I understand that. I have mercy and grace for people. You know, they're not my enemy. I understand why they do, because they want to love their child. And they're looking, how can I love my child when I believe this? And they believe that. How does that work? So

that took some time, and we worked through that. But again, we were just fortunate to have a daughter who didn't demand of us, you know, and I have plenty of people that we've ministered to over the years who their child will say, if you don't accept me just the way I am and agree with me and affirm me, then we will have no relationship. What do you do with that? Oh, man.

So, yeah, so that's, I guess that was my next question is why is it just that lindsey's just so awesome that she's able to have a loving relationship with her parents in the midst of what could be seen as you know a serious disagreement is it really just that's how kind of she's wired or it is there something in how you and vicky have loved on her so well well no i don't want to i get your i get what you're saying and because i know some parents listening or probably quite a few are listening or like yeah that's my my kid gave me the ultimatum is it how they respond to that? I mean, is there anything they can do there? Well, all I can say is from our experience, and see, Mike told me that first day, you have to love her. Well, what does that look like? What does that look like? It doesn't mean

I can't be honest about my biblical beliefs. It doesn't mean I can't be honest, that I can't draw boundaries when I need to draw boundaries. It doesn't mean I can't say something. And I've had to say some hard things to my daughter that hurt her feelings. But again, if the foundation is one of a love foundation, then you take it differently when it has that foundation. So I would say, you know, so many parents expecting the church make a big mistake in taking the Bible out and beating the crap out of their kids, you know, with all those verses and, and yet they don't know what else to do. They do the best they can. That's the main thing.

I tell people who come to me and they go, I blew it. And I said, you know, it's okay. You did the best you can. It wasn't because you're a bad person or a bad Christian. You're doing the best you can. And you have to then, at that point, you have to say, well, is there something I need to do vis-a-vis my child? And sometimes you have to go back and you have to ask forgiveness. But I think we were just, listen, we're not super Christians. I was a Pharisee. I mean, I was ready to take the book out

and start throwing it. And I didn't do that. Not because I'm some special, big spiritual person. It's just God had mercy on me. I was able to respond. Vicki was able to respond in a loving way. So it laid the groundwork for our relationship. But it also took a person in Lindsay who loved Jesus and still loves Jesus to respond

out of her spirit like we responded out of the Holy Spirit. And that's not normal. It's just our experience. And if that's not your experience as a parent, again, it's not because you have a bad kid or you have a, or you're, you know, not a good Christian or you're not, you don't love your child. I know you love your child, but man, you know, if you have a kid that is antagonistic toward you,

it changes the whole dynamic, you know, and you can't, there's sometimes you can't do anything about it. Yeah. Did, did Lindsay end up getting married, right? Yes. She, she, she married. In fact, she married before, um, marriage became illegal, you know, and, and of course with the Supreme court and they married and you know, they adopted two children, two little, two little twin granddaughters and you know, this is a show you like, okay, Lord. So we now have,

we have marriage and they got married in New York. So we didn't have the decision okay are we going to go to a marriage ceremony all that and then they tell us we're going to adopt a child well our first response was no I don't want you to adopt a child and I had one of those hard conversations

with Lindsay they're married we love both of them and they're going to adopt a child and I said that to my daughter and I said Lindsay

I was important to you growing up. And I said, this child is not going to have a daddy. And I worry about that. I worry about that. I think that I'm not sure that's the right thing to do. I'd ask you to reconsider it. And she was very clear. She said, no, we're, we're, this is the way we're going. And so, you know, I think, I think some of it was, you know, if they don't adopt children, then maybe,

maybe, Hey, there's this good chance. They're going to, you know, going to come out of this. But boy, you adopt kids. Well, man, this is serious business now. And so we just realized, you know, as Vicki said, I knew God would not allow this to happen. I already knew it. I knew God was not going to allow them to adopt children. And then all of a sudden I'm looking at this and I'm going, this is going to happen.

I mean, there were 13 couples that this mother was looking at, 13 couples, 12 hetero couples and one gay couple. And this woman was a very spiritual person who was going to have the birth mother. And so she was most impressed with the fact that this gay couple were Christians and would raise a child in that faith. And they picked out of 13, they picked these two. And so she has the child.

And oh, guess what? Mom and dad, we got to tell you something. We're going to adopt a child, but we're actually going to adopt twins because there's two of them. And they're little girls. And we were just like, of course, of course, it's going to be twins, not just one, but two. And so, you know, they adopt and needless to say, those two little girls who live about 10 minutes from us, we pick them up. They're now nine. We pick them up at school three days a week. We bring them over here and we just love on them.

And they're one of the biggest blessings in our life. Now, is that the way that we wanted it to happen? No, but it's the way God set it out. And I really believe it was the way God set it out because they have blessed us beyond. And, you know, with Lindsay, Lindsay, unfortunately, her partner and her got divorced. And that was a whole nother. And so we again said, OK, so we've had marriage. We've had children.

Now we're going through a divorce. And it was heart rending. I mean, we just it broke us down and it would broke them down. And they got divorced. And I told Lindsay in the midst of that, I said, I hope that you never remarry because it's hard enough. My parents divorced when I was 10 years old, and it had an impact on my life that I still, some of that, I still, impacted me to death.

And I didn't want them to go through that. I didn't want them to, you know, to hurt or marry somebody else. And now you have other people involved and, you know, half siblings and all that. And so anyway, she did get remarried. Oh, she did get remarried. Okay. Yeah.

Recently or? Well, it was, yeah, it uh it was uh during the pandemic in april of 2020 and we at that point had to uh decide what we're going to go to that wedding and the young woman that she was going to marry was just delightful had a little boy five-year-old boy at that time three and three and a half and uh they decided they were going to have a wedding but that's a whole nother story to tell you uh but you know so and so you know we remembered what did what did mike tell us a long time ago yeah well mark you've got to love your daughter and guess what you got to love her partner and so those words

were there and we we we did this is not what we wanted but we loved her just like we loved the first wife you know and and by the way we still love that the ex and we saw her yesterday and we love on her and hug on her and kiss on her because you know what her parents rejected her her christian parents reject her had nothing to do with her or the children and i was i was kind of the daddy to her and you know when i see her i grab her with both arms and i pull her into me to this day. And I love on her because God brought her into my life. And I still, we still love her and she loves us. Wow. I get this question a lot and would love your thoughts on it.

And I'm sure some people may be even thinking of it now. Like when does love become like, what's the word I'm looking for? Like condoning. Acceptance. Yeah, condoning sin, you know, like is there a limit to how much or what kind of love we should give? Because if we just, if there's all love and no truth or whatever, then we're just kind of pushing people further into their sin, or however it's framed. I'm sure you've got this a lot. How do you respond to that? The best question that we all ask, and you know what? I still deal with it today, and that is there's a tension between truth and grace. You know, when John the Baptist saw Jesus the Messiah coming up,

he said, behold, the Lamb of God, full of truth, full of grace. No, full of grace and truth. No, full of grace and truth. And so you had this tension, especially those of us who are biblical believers and have a conservative view of traditional sexual ethic. You have the truth over here, which you see that it's there. I can't say it's not there. I either believe it or I don't. But then you have this call to love, that grace, that mercy, compassion. And these pull you back and forth and

back and forth and back and forth. And it always continues to this day. I mean, I still get pulled. Truth is a very powerful thing. It tends to pull us in that direction. The church is really great on truth. We're not so good on grace and mercy when it comes to this issue. But the idea of how does God love me? He loves me unconditionally. Does he love me when I'm a good boy and I don't sin? Yeah. Does he love me when I'm a sinner? Yeah. Okay. So how do I extend love? Do I extend love as long as this, you know, my child is not, you know, living a promiscuous life or getting married or whatever? No, you've got to continue that same love. But again, if it means I've got to lay aside my beliefs,

then you've lost that balance again. Now, all of a sudden, it's all grace. Well, that's where you've become a firmament because you have said, you know, I know that's in the Bible, but I don't believe it applies today or whatever your reasoning is. And you lose that balance. But when you have the balance, you also have the tension.

Yeah. And the answer is there is no limit to the way you love. There can't be. Or it's not genuine love. But there is a limit to various things. Like, let's say your child has a partner. They're not married and they come to your house to visit. Can you tell them, I want you to sleep in different bedrooms?

Absolutely, you can. Does that mean I'm less loving? No. That means you're setting boundaries. Does that mean I'm less loving? No. That means you're setting boundaries. Or, you know, your child is going out at night and, you know, doing going certain places that you don't like that because they're younger. And, you know, you have the right to say, honey, I love you, but I don't want you going to those places, you know, or if they're on the Internet.

going to those places, you know, or if they're on the internet or, and of course this applies to children. They're not just gay or lesbian or trans. This applies to all children, you know? So you have this battle between truth and grace, but the reality is loving does not mean condoning. It does not mean accepting. What it does mean, it means surrendering. mean accepting. What it does mean, it means surrendering. You've got to surrender your control over that child, your rights over that child. You've got to say, God, I've got to give you my child. I want you to have him or her because I know they're safer in there than me. You've got to let go of control. Now, obviously, if they're younger and they live in your house, than me. You've got to let go of control. Now, obviously, if they're younger and they live in your house, well, that's a different situation. But when they're old, adult children, you don't do it the same way. So you have to differentiate between minor children and children that are out

of the nest and all that. But you can't ever worry about there being too much love. Generally, the problem is not too much love, it's too much truth without enough love. But it's always a tension, and you've got to find that balancing. You have to ask God, show me how to walk this path. I don't know how to do it. I don't know how to love, and yet I know what I believe. I don't know how to do this. And people tell me, it's impossible. You can't do that. I said, not true. Cause we do it. We've done it for the last 14 years and we're continuing to do it. And so yes, you can, but I understand. And there are times when we do things, we go places, we say things where we think, were we too much to the love?

It's just a battle that is normal. I think if parents are wrestling with that tension, that's where you need to be, right? It's if you're not wrestling with it, that's when we need to say, all right, it should be attention to life, right? If it's not attention. Always. Like when people ask me, man, I'm really struggling with this sin. What do I do?

And it's like, well, if you're struggling, then you're acknowledging it's sin and you're not wanting to do it and you're probably failing, probably succeeding. So if you're struggling with it, you're 90% of the way, you know, in the direction where you probably should be, you know, what, what you, you work, you talk with a lot of parents, right? Christian parents with LGBT kids. What, what do you have? Like the top one or two questions that you often get asked and what, what are those and how do you respond? Like what are some common things that Christians or Christian parents are wrestling with?

Well, we founded a support group eight years ago called Lifeline. And Lifeline literally is a lifeline to people. And, you know, we've had hundreds of parents come through Lifeline in the last eight years. And Vicki and I were the leaders of that group. We had two other couples that helped us found it. We had to move churches because the pastor at the other church said,

we want you to come and we want you to be part of our church. We want you to start this group. And our pastor is Randy Phillips, if you've ever heard of Phillips church. We want you to start this group. And our pastor is Randy Phillips. If you've ever heard of Phillips, Craig, and Dean, this is Randy Phillips. And Randy is, you're talking about someone that I want to learn how to be when I grow up. But unfortunately, I'm older than him, so I'm probably not going to get there on that. But they asked us to come over. uh, they asked us to come over. And so the amazing thing about it,

because of course Randy's in, in Christian music, uh, is that he knew Lindsay already through Christian music. Oh, right. Yeah. And, and, and, and we, we, we ate lunch one day with Randy and his wife, Denise, when we were getting ready to move over and start this group. And I'd never met Randy. I'd seen him. I'd heard of him.

And so we'd go to lunch. And, you know, and this is probably five years after we had found out about Lindsay. And, you know, we were talking about Christian music. And I said, you know, Lindsay was so anointed as a worship leader. And he reached over and grabbed my arm and he said, uh-uh, she is anointed to that. That anointing does not go away. And I'm looking at him going, who is this guy? And he says, you know what? I love your daughter. I love

Lindsay. Gosh, I love her. And we go through this and he starts relating some issues that some of these, some experiences he had with LGBTQ people. And we left that meeting that day with our pastor. And we got in the car and we both just cried. And we cried because we were like, I've never been around anyone like him. I mean, boy, he holds to the truth. He is just like us. He's like you, Preston. He holds to the truth.

And yet, God, he has this love. I remember the first time we brought them. We brought Lindsay and her first spouse and the twins to church. And, of course, she loves Lindsay, too. I mean, she loves Randy also. And we brought those little girls. They were probably a year old, to the church. I saw Randy come across the room, makes a beeline.

The first thing he does, he goes up and he just envelops Lindsay and kisses her and hugs on her and tells him, oh, Lindsay, I've missed you. I love you so much. And then he hugs her wife, who he didn't know. And then he takes those two little babies. And one by one, he puts them right up against his face. I mean, we were just sitting here going.

So anyway, but basically what I'm just telling you, that that was the reason why we went over and founded Lifeline because of a man like Randy Phillips. And so we start this group and we, these parents start coming and, you know, they, one of the first meetings we had, we had a couple that was sitting out in a pickup. I knew they were coming. They were out in their pickup, you know, it's just Texas.

So they're in pickups and But we started the meeting, and they were still out there. So I said, wait a second. So I go out on there, and I know it's them, but they couldn't get out of the pickup. So I knock on the window, and I said, are you all going to come in? This is not drive-in theater. You have to actually come in the meeting. And they came in. They were so nervous about coming in. And their first question was,

how do you love your child when you know that what they're doing is a sin? Yeah. That is always the number one question. Okay. And it's always an issue. And another one of the issues is, how could God allow this? I've raised my child in the church, and you know that Old Testament, raise them up in the way that you go, and you know, which that's not really the way that it's meant, you know?

And so they struggle with that part. How could this happen? And how could God give me a person struggling with this? And after several years of going through this, I came up with my own theory. And my own theory is I haven't had anyone tell me this is true. It's my own theory is I haven't had anyone tell me this is true. It's my own theory. Because I believe God knits our children in the womb.

Psalm 139 tells us that. So if he knit my daughter in the womb, he knew when he was knitting, there were certain bent or something inside her that was going to lead her to that. He already knew what her life was going to be. And guess what? He put Lindsay and Vicki and my family. He chose us

to raise her. And this is what I tell parents. I said, you know what? God put your daughter, your son, and your family because you know what? God put your daughter, your son, and your family, because you know what he knew when he would put that child in your family? You were going to tell them about Jesus. And they were going to know about Jesus. Now, they may walk away from him, but guess what? Jesus was not going to walk away from that child. And I believe that God in his mercy knew the struggle that was coming.

And he provided this incredible family to be in. And boy, we screwed up raising our kids. I'm telling you, we were probably C plus, C minus parents. We did our best. But that's a big thing. Why would God allow this? It's a big thing. And, and I'm telling you, because guess what? God chose you to have this child and to raise this child. I'm curious, your, your phrase a while back, I've heard this a lot when kids come out of the closet, the parents go into the closet and you said, at least for a while, you couldn't tell anybody about your situation. Has that changed? Have you seen changes in the church?

Like now, can you speak freely? And do people still kind of get judgmental responses? Or is it different now? You know, I would love to say it's different, but it's really not. Really? I haven't seen a big change. And it's not that the churches haven't changed, because churches have. Not all churches. I mean, I know several churches

that still are hard on this. And we've talked to several churches in talking about starting a group. So we know. And I've always said, if I were a pastor now, it'd be so hard, because, you know, I love your talk at the Revoice, you know, church needs LGBTQ people, and absolutely they do, but what if they're not living a celibate life? What if they're, you know, what if they're not struggling, you know, how does that work? When I go, I don't have the answer. I don't know how that works, but the reality is it's still extremely difficult for people because these people are the same people that were probably

condemning and judgmental of LGBTQ people. You know, it's the old, that group, they, you know, the activists, all that stuff. They already know, and their friends, they know what their friends think. And of course, you know, you hear all these gay jokes or you hear people saying mean, nasty things about, and they don't realize you have a child that's that way, you know, that's dealing with that. So it's still not a safe place. Now, I'm sure there are churches that are, that are there. Uh, it's my church is incredible, you know, life, awesome, unbelievable, but you know what? Still hard because there's still a lot of guilt and

shame and fear that we all feel. And we think, because a lot of people, when they find out you have a gay child, guess what? They think, boy, you must have really been a horrible dad, especially if you have a gay son or a trans son, or if you're a mom and you have a gay daughter or trans daughter, boy, you must not have been a very good parent to that child

because you didn't show them how to be a, you know, a manly man and all that. So, you know, it's still, we're still, we still haven't gotten an atmosphere. I'd say my church is probably as close to it as I've ever seen. And yet there's some people that wouldn't feel comfortable. And I think most would because they've heard Randy talk before and he's, he's dealt with issues. And so, but it's still a hard thing for churches and it's a hard thing for people who go to churches. What's your advice to parents that maybe they have a kid who's gay, trans, gay or trans

or whatever, and they haven't really, they're kind of in that place where they feel like they're in the closet. They, they would love to talk through this, get some counsel and wisdom from other parents, but they're just scared to kind of tell anybody. Would you encourage them to go to their pastor? Does it really depend on their pastor? Well, I think you have to go to your pastor. I think it's important.

Not all pastors are prepared, and not all pastors are going to respond the right way, but I think you have to. I think God's put. Not all pastors are prepared and not all pastors are going to respond the right way. But I think you have to. I think God's put you in that church. And I think, you know, you've got to step out and take a chance. You ought to go to your pastor and tell them what's going on. And I tell you, most pastors are going to be loving and sweet to you. They're not going to point their finger at you. They're not going to think that you did something wrong, but you go to them.

But now I'm telling you, I had one couple come to us and tell us this, that when they told their pastor that they had a gay daughter, his response, you will, this will blow your mind was, you know, if I had a gay daughter, I would kill myself. Oh my God. Okay. I can't, I can't, I, that would kill myself. Oh, my God. I can't. That really.

Can you? Can you? No, I don't have a category. Worst. This was a evangelical pastor. How could you say that to anyone? Now, that is I've only heard that one time. And that's enough.

I don't think that's a response anyone's going to get. I think you're going to get. Tell me your story. We love you. Well think you're going to get, tell me your story. We love you. Boy, we're going to be praying for you. And that's the way I think all of our churches, because I think pastors want to help people who are in need. So get courage and go and tell your pastor. And if you don't get what you're looking for, then say, Lord, bring someone into my life that can help me with this. And you know what? God will do that. And I'm not a fan of

hopping churches. I think leaving a church is a huge decision. But man, if you had a pastor that can't handle or would respond in really un-Christlike ways to such an intimate part of your life, then I would raise the question, is this the shepherd you want caring for your soul like that? And I don't say that flippantly, but that, you know, I'm sure, well, I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir of anybody listening, but I'm sure families have had to wrestle with that. But yeah, I can't, you know, is about to wrestle with that. But yeah, I can't, you know, I do have a lot of confirmation bias in my perspective on this question because I'm in churches all over the country, but I'm there because they invited me in, right? So, which means they already have a certain posture that they're looking to enhance or address. So, when I look at the, I'm like, oh, man, I'm so hopeful.

There's so many amazing churches out there. And I do forget that even if I preach at 40 churches in a year, that's a tiny, tiny, tiny sampling of the churches in America. So I need that as a reminder. It's as hard as some of these stories are. I need those as a reminder that there's a lot of work, a lot of work to be done. You know, I never did understand why it's one thing,

obviously for somebody who is LGBTQ to be scared to tell their story, to talk to somebody, but a parent, like I, I'm just like, it's just crazy that people would put blame on the parent for this. But I know that know that's there's a lot of misinformation out there you know there there is and you know what you think of a group

like lifeline you would you would feel like there had to be a thousand of those groups in churches but i have i've had more trouble you know we've gone and visited churches and, you know, they'll want to talk about it and they call us, hey, can you come tell us about it? But it never happens. And it's because this idea that if you have a group of parents, Christian parents, and you're talking about LGBTQ kids, somehow you've now mentioned the L word or the G word or the T word, and somehow that is not something you want to have talked about in your church, because I think that's one of the problems. It's not the pastors.

Sometimes it's the elders who, you know, do not want to have this even discussed. But it still shocks me that every, particularly the bigger churches, don't have a group like ours in their church. Because, you know, just look at the percentages. If it's 5% of the people out there, kids dealing with these kind of issues, man, that means 5% of your church. You have 3,000 people in your church. Do the math. Think of all the parents that are sitting out there who are dying

and they can't tell anybody because they don't feel like it's a safe place. Now, some of that's because they're experiencing shame and they're kind of protecting themselves. Right. So it's not always because the church is not safe. It's because they're scared to do it. But most pastors are going to respond beautifully and lovingly. Now, they may not call you on the phone every week and check on you, but at least they're knowing that. And I think it also gives the pastors the chance to start searching their own souls

and say, gosh, what can we do? How can we minister to these people? I mean, we've got Mary and Joe over here. How can we help them? Yeah, man. Well, Mark, yeah, thank you for your time and for your ministry. And are you still running that parent group? And is there an online?

I guess somebody's like, man, I don't live in Austin, but can I join the group somehow? No, we don't. We're not quite that sophisticated. In fact, we just retired as the leaders of that particular group. We've helped start a couple of other groups in Austin area that are not lifelines. But, you know, I don't care what you call it, what it's like. But, yeah, we're still heavily involved in it. I mean, Vicki is a brilliant reader, writer. She's a Phi Beta Kappa, and she takes these books. In fact,

the last two books she's read were the two books written by Dr. Greg Coles, which blew both of us away. And then, of course, she's read all of your books. She's in the middle of reading Embodied. Okay. And Embodied. Embodied Month? Embodied. Yeah, you got to write it the first time.

Embodied. Right, Embodied. And so she works on that. So she's going to continue to do that. She's writing this big, long thing right now on ambiguity of loss, ambiguous loss, ambiguous grief, which she's writing right now. She was in this very room writing, and I had to kick her out. I got to go live here.

But we have a website that we're still updating, and it's not like I like it, but it's called grabthislifeline.com. It's all one word, grabthislifeline.com. And you can go on there. There are lots of resources, but I haven't updated it in three years. Okay. lots of resources, but I haven't updated it in three years. I've got to update it and bring a lot more resources, particularly with the trans because we're seeing more. Now the majority of people that are coming to our group

are parents dealing with trans issues. That's a whole other ballgame. But the reality is that if you need someone, you can call, you can write, there's a, there's a, you can write a info at grab this lifeline.com and we'll respond

to you because, you know, Hey, we, we have ministered to people all over the United States over the years. And in fact, I'm praying now, and you all can pray for Mark, who's a dad, who's a missionary in Kiev, Ukraine. Oh, wow. And if you've been following what's going on, you know, we've been ministering. I've been emailing him over the years. And so, you know, it's one of those things that we do anyway. So the main thing is that we prayed for someone to talk to, and we never could find anybody. So if you write that, it'll get to us, and then we'll respond to you.

Leave your phone number, and we'll call you. All this will be in the show notes. We'll put it all in the show notes. So grab this lifeline.com. Also, I'm not sure when this is going to, this episode is going to go live, but we're going to try to correlate it with the launch of our Parenting LGBT Kids project.

So if you are a parent and you want a resource, I would check that out. We'll put that in the show notes. I think it's parentdnlgbtkids.com. I think it's something like that. That would be so good. Mark, I help create it, so I'm biased. But we've done quite a few resources now.

And Mark, it's incredible. I spent the last few months watching through all the videos. i'm just like hats off to our editors too who took hours and hours and hours of material and boiled it down to something that's you know it's tight it's it's uh but man it's and you know my wife's been watching the videos she's like this isn't just for lgb parents of lg this isn't just for parents of LGBT kids. This is for parents. There's so many. And it's really true.

Oh. You know, Chris is so right. Yeah. But I tell you, this is going to be a paradigm changer. This one series is going to be a paradigm changer. And for what you and Greg Coles and Chris and all the people involved, it's going to be – it really will. And I'm not being – I'm not speaking a hyperbolic language. It will be a game changer.

Yeah. Well, I appreciate that. You know, we did – I don't know if you know. I think you know this. We sent out a survey, a really lengthy survey to parents. Oh, yeah, you were part of that. But over 500 parents filled this out. We thought we'd get like 50.

So we got 500 parents, Christian parents. That's unbelievable. Isn't that incredible? The data that we collected there is so helpful. And then I think the number one thing that parents wrestle with is this sense of shame, of I did something wrong. Even though they know that's not true. They still,

it's like there's that voice that just keeps compounding that it's, it's really sad. So, so we, that's why we invested a lot of time in the videos addressing that and among many other, many other things. So. It's going to be so good. We can't, we cannot wait to wash it ourselves and you're right. I think it's going to be great for any parent. Yeah, yeah.

Well, Mark, thank you for your time. Really appreciate it. And let's stay in touch. I really enjoy talking to you and learning from you. Been a privilege. Thank you, Preston. God bless you. God bless you.