Theology in the Raw - S9 Ep951: Speaking in Tongues, Youth Camps, Ghost Writing, Purpose of Church: Dr. Preston Sprinkle

Episode Date: March 3, 2022

Going O.G. Theology in the Raw for this one with a Q & A podcast. My patreon supporters sent in a ton of great questions, some of which I address in this podcast (others which I address in a separate Patreon Podcast. Their questions include: how to respond to a spouse that no longer believes, my thoughts on speaking in tongues, is it okay to serve as a chaplain in the military, Christian memes on Instagram, the purpose of church (evangelism or discipleship), violence in the O.T., Christians using ghost writers, whether parachurch youth camps are a good thing, and resources for teaching your kids about sexualtiy and gender. If you want to support Theology in the Raw, please visit patreon.com/theologyintheraw to learn more. Theology in the Raw Conference - Exiles in Babylon  At the Theology in the Raw conference, we will be challenged to think like exiles about race, sexuality, gender, critical race theory, hell, transgender identities, climate change, creation care, American politics, and what it means to love your democratic or republican neighbor as yourself. Different views will be presented. No question is off limits. No political party will be praised. Everyone will be challenged to think. And Jesus will be upheld as supreme. Register here Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out Dr. Sprinkle’s website prestonsprinkle.com Stay Up to Date with the Podcast Twitter | @RawTheology Instagram | @TheologyintheRaw If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

🎵 Oh my gosh. I keep trying to start this podcast and I swear I just keep fumbling around with my words for some reason. This is like the eighth take I've done. So you know what? I'm just going to go for it. And if I stumble around, I think I just need to like start talking and maybe it'll work itself out. Anyway. Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology to Raw. For this episode, we're going to get, uh, we're going to go OG, um, uh, Theology to Raw, where I'm going to respond to some questions that some of y'all have sent in. Um, so every month I release a Patreon only Q and A podcast where my Patreon supporters submit a bunch of questions. I give them a few days to get them in. And then I spend

usually, you know, the last day of the month or something recording a podcast responding to their questions. Well, their questions are getting more numerous. And so I can't get to them all in that Patreon only podcast. So I think I'm going to start doing this every month, as long as more and more questions keep getting sent in. I think I'm going to still answer most of them on Patreon, uh, just for my Patreon supporters. And then, uh, I will, uh, answer a few for this public podcast. So that's what this one is. These are questions sent in by my Patreon supporters, and I'm going to address some of them to the broader public. And let me, I used to say this in the past when I used to do a lot more Q&A podcasts,

but you know, these, I try not to, it sounds almost counterintuitive. I try not to heavily like research these questions. For one, I just don't have the time to do it. I mean, each one of these questions could take 40 hours of research to really answer. Well, I can go read a few books, read a few articles, have some kind of just conversations. Um, but that's just not feasible. And plus, I don't, I don't know. I don't, I don't love that vibe for some reason. Like I, I, I just want a picture. Like if you waltzed into my living room, okay. You came through the door and I'm like, dude, why'd you just come through my door Like if you waltzed into my living room, okay. You came through the door

and I'm like, dude, why'd you just come through my door? And you're like, Hey, I'm a friend and I want to talk to you. I'm like, Oh yeah. Okay. So let's talk. And he said, Hey, I got a question for you. And I said, all right. Yeah. What's your question? And he said, what do you think about that? And I was like, huh? Okay. And I respond to it. This is like a real time conversation. At least that's how I'm trying to, um, uh, uh, frame it. So, and I'll be honest if I, if I really don't, if I'm not like super well-versed in the question, I I'll, I'll let you know. I'll say, Hey, here's some thoughts, but I, you know, I don't, um, I'm not the expert here. You know, make sure you cross-check what I'm saying to somebody who knows more than I do.

Okay. So that's the nature of these questions because some of these are really, I mean, yeah, I'm just scamming, scamming, skimming through some of the ones that I'm going to try to respond to here publicly. And some of these are really hard. Some are just more practical and relational. Others are more theological. I'm like, man, yeah, I could easily read like two or three books to be better prepared on this. But again, if you came through my door and asked the question, I wouldn't say, well, you know what? Hey, come back in a month.

I don't want to talk to you right now because I don't have a, you know, a thorough answer to your question. All right. So without further ado, let's jump in. Steve said, what advice would you give to someone who has a spouse that has had a faith crisis and will be leaving the church? This is a great question. I don't think I've ever had anybody ask me this specific question. This is great. And for those of you who are in this boat, first of all, my heart goes out to you. That would be hard. It'd be really hard, especially if kids are involved.

And I just talked to a pastor last week that I didn't even know this, but he's a friend of mine, but he says, yeah, my wife pretty much left the faith like 10 years ago and he's still a pastor. And so he's had to navigate that where he goes to church and preaches and his job is still being a pastor and yet his wife is no longer a Christian. And so these are tough, tough scenarios. So let me just give you some thoughts off the top of my head here. First of all, I mean, just focus on loving your spouse well. Love them well, pray for them a ton. And there's not, I mean, besides those two things, there's just not a whole lot that I think you can do about this. I would assume in most cases, if somebody leaves the faith, like they were part of the faith for a while, that leaves the faith, they probably don't need

more facts about Christianity. Like facts about Christianity that's like, repeated to them over and over, things they already know. Like, well, you know, the to them over and over, you know, things they already know. Like, well, you know, the wages of sin is death and the free gift of God's eternal life. And the person's like, yeah, I memorized that in Awana. And I know, I know what that verse says. I just don't, I don't believe it anymore. I would, I would try to understand what it is that they don't find compelling about Christianity. If like, I don't want to force that conversation,

but if you're, if they're wanting, cause some people don't really want to talk about it. And if you kind of try to pry it out of them, that, that can backfire. But if they're, I think most people are, you know, if they're public enough to say, yeah, I'm not a Christian anymore, they're willing to say why that is. Um, I would want to know, is it like, anymore, they're willing to say why that is. I would want to know, is it like, is it intellectual reasons? Like they just don't, they're not convinced by the evidence for Christianity. Is it, is it an emotional thing? Like they just don't feel God anymore. You know, I talked to people about that quite a bit where they're just like, I just don't, I used to like feel God and I don't feel him anymore. I don't feel excited about Christianity. I go to church and it's like, it's boring.

And Christianity seems boring. And there's lots of other things in life that I enjoy. It just, they just kind of like, it's just kind of, it's just that they just grow into apathy. You know, there's like throw up their arms and say, whatever, you know? So like that person, I don't think giving them facts about Christianity, cold, hard facts is like, oh, wait, so Jesus rose from the dead. Oh, okay. Yeah. Oh, I guess I'll believe again. Like that's probably not why they're no longer a Christian. Is it the more,

is it the ethics of Christianity? Like Christianity has certain demands on their life that they just don't want to live by anymore. So I think understanding why they have rejected faith would be helpful. Um, but, but again, yeah, I, I, um, I don't think just like giving them the same facts that they already know is typically going to be helpful. I would, if you're a reader, I would recommend a couple of books or if this is you, or if you're asking this question for a friend, um, and I recommended this book so many times that I should get some royalty money, but Jonathan Heights, the righteous mind, why good people disagree on politics and religion. It digs into the kind of nature of belief and it doesn't direct, it's not directly addressing your question, but I think it

does help. It does help us understand kind of the nature of belief, why we believe what we believe and why we don't believe what we don't believe. Is that right? We don't. Yeah. Another one is Adam Grant's Think Again. That book is fantastic. Both of them have, they're different, but they agree on a lot of stuff. Adam Grant's is really, really, really

good. There's even a chapter on like the best ways that try to get people to change their viewpoint. He even has stories of like, well, he's got a story of Daryl Davis. Have you heard of Daryl Davis? Daryl Davis is a black guy who has engaged like several like KKK members and turned them away from it. Like it's crazy, crazy like stories. And he talks about like doctors who have been able to convince a hyper, like it was going to be controversial, like really anti-vax people. Maybe I shouldn't even give this example in this day and age, but people who are utterly against any vaccine ever, not, not like I'm against vaccine mandates or whatever. I don't think you need a booster. You know, I'm not, not, I'm talking to people who are like, like completely against all vaccines. And he's, he gives an example, examples of how

doctors have gone about convincing, um, people to rethink that position. Anyway, that the principles in these books, I think could be helpful in how you even go about a healthy spiritual conversation with somebody who's left of faith. But again, I wouldn't, if those opportunities come up, then great. But love your, just loving your spouse well, embodying the grace and truth of Jesus is oftentimes the best thing you can do. Next question. This is going to be a long one here. I'll try to keep it somewhat short. Okay. Ben, long time charismatic, wrestling with speaking in tongues as evidence of being filled with the Holy Spirit. I appreciate your thoughtfulness to every topic you approach.

Do you believe in speaking in tongues? Can you point me in a direction to deep, to dive deep into the subject? Or can you recommend some resources that can help me in my studying? Okay. How do I want to start this? I think, first of all, we have to understand the nature, like what is speaking in tongues? Like what is the very thing we're even talking about? Biblically speaking, it's a little tricky. The two main passages where we see people speaking in tongues is throughout the book of Acts and 1 Corinthians, in particular 1 Corinthians 14, where Paul dives into a long discussion about speaking in tongues. Now in the book of Acts, let me do give a good qualification. I've dabbled in this question

over the last 20 years, primarily 10 years ago. No, actually probably more like 20 years ago when I was kind of searching out, you know, what I believe about miraculous gifts or what I believe about prophecy and speaking in tongues and stuff. And I was raised in a, you know, these things aren't for today. And now I do hold to a, what's it called? A continuation, continuationist position where I do think all the gifts are available today. Um, uh, you know, sometimes I call myself a lowercase C charismatic or charismatic with a seatbelt. And some of my capital C, no seatbelt charismatic friends get on me about that. But Hey man, I come a long way, dude. I was like groomed and you know, um, uh, the war, you know,

John MacArthur's world of, you know, where, when he wrote charismatic chaos and there were certain people in that context where it's like, you know, charismatics are demonically possessed and this is like heresy and all this stuff. So I've come along, getting to a lowercase C charismatic position where theologically on paper, I can affirm that I think the best argument is that all these gifts are available today. I've come a long way. Okay. So give me a break.

Okay. So in the book of Acts, it's almost certain that when people are speaking in tongues, they are speaking in known languages that are unknown to the speaker. It'd be like me all of a sudden speaking in Arabic or something in a context where, you know, that might, you know, be impactful. That seems, I would say, very clear from Acts chapter two, where, yeah, two, one to 10 or whatever, when, no, not two, one to 10. Yeah, two, one, when Peter preaches, right? And people start speaking in tongues and he even names like the languages that they are speaking in. And throughout the book of Acts, there's no reason to assume that tongue speaking

is anything other than that. It's the Acts 2 stuff. It's speaking in another known language, unknown to the speaker. Okay. That would challenge some, I would say, popular understandings of what speaking in tongues is. Because some people would say, well, some people say, you know, speaking in tongues is like a private prayer language where you're uttering things that aren't known languages. It's just, yeah, it's just like sounds or noises. It's a private prayer language, an angelic language, something that God understands, but it's not a known language. Now there is biblical, I would say questionable biblical basis for that latter view, tongues being a private prayer language that isn't known to anybody. And it comes from 1 Corinthians 14. I want to read at least a section here. Paul says,

pursue love and desire spiritual gifts, especially that you at least a section here. Paul says, pursue love and desire spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. And then he says, 14 to you, this is the key verse for the person who speaks in another tongue is not speaking to people, but to God, since no one understands him, he speaks mysteries in the spirit. Then on the other hand, the person who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouragement, and consolation. The person who speaks in another tongue builds himself up, but the one who prophesies builds up the church.

There's several questions here. Is one of the main ones is, is this speaking in another known language? In this case, it doesn't seem like that's what Paul is saying. It's questionable. It's questionable. But this is, I mean, 14.2 is one of the main verses where people get another kind of speaking in tongue that seems different than the book of Acts, where it is some kind of private prayer language where you're uttering mysteries in the spirit. No one understands him. Because in the book of Acts, people understand you. You're speaking in a language

that other people around you might actually know. And then down in verse 14. So 1 Corinthians 14, 14. For if I pray in another tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. What then? I will pray with the spirit. I will also pray with my understanding. I will sing praise in the spirit. I will also sing praise in my understanding is unfruitful. What then? I will pray with the spirit. I will also pray with my understanding. I will sing praise in the spirit. I will also sing praise in my

understanding. Is Paul endorsing? Whatever tongue speaking he's talking about, is he being sarcastic? Like when he says the one who speaks in the tongue, the kind of tongue that was probably going on in Corinth and the kind of tongue that Paul's addressing here, is he being sarcastic? And people say, what do you mean sarcastic? Well, Paul isn't afraid of sarcasm. In fact, throughout the Corinthian letters, he uses sarcasm on several occasions. So that is possible. Also, Paul seems to be a big fan of spiritual gifts being for the edification of the church, right? Gifts are given to edify the body. So when he says the one who speaks praise in a tongue or speaks in a tongue edifies

himself, is he endorsing that? I'm not going to even answer the question. I don't want to, I don't know. I don't know. It's at least possible that he's saying the kind of tongue speaking that you all are engaging in is only edifying yourself and not the church, but gifts should be edifying the church. Now I've heard people say, I'm not, I don't know about the logic of this, but some people say, well, no, if you edify yourself, then you're a part of the church. So there's still kind of edifying the church. Well, I don't know if that really follows the grain of what Paul's saying there. I mean, he contrasts edifying yourself versus edifying the church. But then he says, you know, I wish all people did speak in tongues, you know? So, I mean, this is 1 Corinthians 14, 1 through really 25. Yeah, this is, there's, it's one of the more difficult sections in a very difficult letter. So I don't, I haven't solved all these issues. There's lots of questions that surround tongue

speaking in 1 Corinthians 14. All I do want to say is the idea, the possibility that speaking in tongues or praying in tongues is some kind of private prayer language. It comes from this passage in 1 Corinthians 14, and yet there are several questions that surround that. So, do I believe in tongues? Because I believe all the gifts are available today, that doesn't mean that they... I don't need every gift to be pervasively used. Well, do I want to say that? No, let me, let me stop the train of thought. Cause I was kind of chasing down a thought that came into my head and I'm not sure I even agree with it. So I'll stop there. Um, yes, on paper, at least I do think all the gifts are available today. So whatever the gift of tongues is, whether it's

speaking in another known language that is unknown to the hearer in some sort of, maybe typically like maybe like a missionary context where you're trying to reach a people group and don't know the language. Some people even say, even like people who are really skilled at learning another language that is kind of under the umbrella of, of having the gift of tongues. You're really good at learning languages. Again, I don't know if that really fits the vibe of Acts, the book of Acts, but you know, I don't know. Maybe that's a possibility too. So, um, so yes, I believe in speaking in tongues. Lots of questions about what it even is though. Um, and I've got good friends, good friends that speak in tongues. Um, and you know, um, you know, experiences are always

tough, even if it's good friends, even if it's myself, even if I say, Hey, I had this experience. It's like, does that, is there, is that a hundred percent accurate that that experience is how I am interpreting it? Well, no, I wouldn't say that about my own experience. You know, I could have a dream, you know, in the middle of the night. And it's like, and if I said, well, that was from God, that dream was from God. It wasn't just a natural dream. You should say, well, you shouldn't say, but in your heart, you should say, Hey, that's awesome. Right. You just pat me on the back. And then in your heart, in your mind, you should, you should shrug your shoulders and kind of say, maybe, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's a individual subject of experience. That's,

that's, uh, I possibly misinterpreted it. Maybe you misinterpret, it's, it's, it's a individual subject of experience. That's, that's, uh, I, I possibly misinterpreted it. Maybe you misinterpret, you know, individual experiences aren't like black and white rock solid, take a bullet for it. You know, uh, true experiences necessarily in the sense that they are directly from God. So, you know, um, I'm not here to judge someone else's personal experience. I, I, you know, I have friends that speak in tongues and I, you know, um, I'm not here to judge someone else's personal experience. I, I, you know, I have friends that speak in tongues and I, you know, um, that's great. I don't, I don't question it. Um, at the same time, you know, inexperience doesn't necessarily mean that that experience is exactly what, um, uh, the Bible is talking about when it's, when it's talking about tongues. Okay. When it comes to, okay. So your first question is tongues

evidence of being filled with the Holy Spirit. There's two passages that I'm aware of that this idea comes from in Acts 10. Uh, what is it? 44, 47 where, um, uh, well, 44 to 47, where the Holy Spirit falls upon Gentiles and they end up speaking in tongues. Is that, yeah. And then in Acts 19 verse six, it says, Paul, when he laid hands on these converts that the Holy Spirit came upon them and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying and prophesying. Those are the two passages. Now here's the thing. We do have several other passages where people, even in the book of Acts, where people are filled with the Holy Spirit and don't speak in tongues. Um, Acts, let's see. Um, well, no, Acts, sorry, Acts 2, 4, again, is another passage where people are filled with the Holy Spirit and they do speak in tongues.

We have many other instances in the Bible. Elizabeth and Zechariah, Zechariah and Luke 1 are filled with the Holy Spirit. They don't speak in tongues. Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit, didn't speak in tongues. You know, like, okay, well, that's kind of pre-resurrection. Well, Peter in Acts 4 was filled with the Holy Spirit and he didn't speak in tongues. Rather, he preached the gospel to the rulers. Acts 4, 31, people were filled with the Holy Spirit, don't speak in tongues.

Stephen was filled with the Holy Spirit, didn't speak in tongues. Ephesians 5 says be filled with the Holy Spirit. Don't be drunk with wine, but be filled with the Holy Spirit. Don't be drunk with wine, but be filled with the Holy Spirit. And then the result is speaking in songs and hymns and spiritual songs, encouraging one another. I'm going off memory here. I forget the exact quote, but again, there's no tongues that follow that. So yeah, I don't think that the Bible teaches that if somebody is filled with the Holy Spirit, that will always lead to speaking in tongues. And if you're not speaking in tongues, you're not filled with the Holy Spirit. I don't, I don't say, I think that would contradict several other things in scripture too, about the nature of salvation and the nature about being filled with the Holy Spirit. Okay. Let's, so those are my thoughts in terms of

recommendations books. I honestly, I would have to really, I mean, the one that was kind of the classic study back when I was in seminary was D.A. Carson's book on spiritual gifts. I have not read it. Maybe I dabbled, but I think I read parts of it. A lot of people I respect said it's a really, really good, exegetical, responsible, scholarly, but readable analysis of just spiritual gifts as a whole. Um, I think Wayne Grudem has done some work here. Um, but these, these are older books. I'm sure there's been something, I would think there's been something that's been done, um, in the last

10 or 15 years that, you know, um, might render those a little old, but I, I would at least look up the D.A. Carson book. That one, yeah, again, I've heard his is really responsible. Next question, a friend of mine, this is from Chad. Next, a good friend of mine is in his MDiv and is in the process of enrolling as a chaplain for the National Guard. I am firmly against a follower of Jesus joining the military, but this seems to be a gray area that I'm not sure how to respond to. His bootcamp is very different and he is not trained to use any sort of weapon, but it's still in service to Babylon. What are your thoughts about basically being a pastor or chaplain in

the military? This is a great question that I did wrestle with in my, I'm not sure if I wrestled with this exact question in my book fight now called nonviolence. Um, but I did, I think I did come to the conclusion there in my own mind, at least, um, that some, that where I would draw the line is serving as a combatant where part of your job could be or is being called upon to kill another human. I think that's where the rub between, I guess, my view of nonviolence and serving in the military would be. So for me, that would be a little more black and white. be. So for me, that would be a little more black and white. And obviously if you don't pull to nonviolence, you're going to be horrified that I would even suggest that a Christian couldn't kill their enemies if they're serving for the military. So I, obviously I'm assuming my theological position of nonviolence for that, but assuming that position, that's where I would draw the

clear line. I do think, I do think it is more of a gray area, um, serving in branches of the military that are non-combatant or that are embodying peace in an environment where, um, yeah, an environment that could, could use probably more peace. Um, now some people say, no, like, well, some people say what you suggested here, well, you're still serving Babylon. You're carrying water for somebody doing something bad or whatever. And that's a good argument. You're still being part of the system that you don't agree with the ultimate goal of that system. I guess my pushback to that pushback is, well, my taxes do that. I can work for just living in Babylon means I am inevitably wrapped up in a

system that is ultimately empowering Babylon. My taxes do all kinds of things that, you know, help fund the, I mean, not the military being one of many things that I wouldn't agree with. And also, I know being a chaplain, I just, that, that does seem to be, that does seem to resonate with being in the world, but not of the world. Um, are you really empowering Babylon by being a chaplain of Babylon? I don't know. That's questionable at least. I, I, uh, yeah, I think the other argument could be here. You're, you're bringing light and goodness and peace to an environment that, uh, again, could, could use

a bit of that. So yeah, I, I would, I would say, um, yeah, I'd be okay with it. I'd be very much okay with being a chaplain in the military or national guard or whatever. But there's people within the nonviolent tradition that would say any participation in military service is not okay. Eden, what do you think of Christian? Yeah, this one. What do you think of Christian meme pages on Instagram, specifically the ones that are calling out the evangelical church? There are too many to list here, but I just wanted to see if you had an opinion. I actually don't know what you're talking about. I'm not familiar with this. I, you know, I'm on Instagram, um, but I don't, I don't follow a lot of people and the bulk of my time, this is a true story.

It's embarrassing. The bulk of my time on Instagram is looking at, um, uh, uh, videos of blank on the name. What is it? Otter videos. Yeah. The bulk of my time is looking at cute otter videos on Instagram. This is a true story. This is embarrassing. So it's funny, you know, you get these advertisements and sponsors. I mean, if you looked at my Instagram feed, cause I don't follow a lot of people. I don't see a lot of like other people's lives. Um, what I do get is every other thing is some, some sponsored, whatever advertising, like funny otter videos. And I fall for it every time I keep clicking on them and I send them to my, my, my family, um, my daughter, my oldest daughter, my wife, and they get kind of tired of me keep sending,

you know, cute otter pictures. So, so yeah, I, I actually don't know what you're talking about. I don't, I don't know what memes you're referring to, but I mean, just generally anytime people call out the evangelical church. I mean, I've got mixed thoughts on this. I mean, is the problem, the calling out or is it the sin that's being called out? Kind of like, I guess, would this be one of the sneakers and the preachers and sneakers one? Yeah. I don't know. I, I kind of liked that one. Is that okay? Should I like it? Is that bad? Preachers wearing like thousand dollar shoes or whatever. It's like, you know, I call out the evangelical church sometimes. I do.

Here's what I don't like. So, I mean, how do I say it? I think it gets a little annoying when people call out the church when the non-evangelical church is wrestling with the same stuff, you know, you know, look at all the abuse scandals in the church, you know, it's like, yeah, call that out. But I mean, the Me Too movement and many other things have shown that church isn't the only institution or group of people that are doing horrible things to women in particular. So, yeah, I mean, if people are calling out the church from a perspective of,

I have all my stuff together, it's the church that's doing all the bad stuff. It's like, well, no, welcome to the club. Like it's problematic when we are saying we are trying to live a certain way and then when we don't live that way. But I don't, I don't know. I get just as annoyed maybe with people that think that, you know, that they're, you know, doing a better job, you know, or, you know, when people who are maybe on a more progressive side of thinking for lack of better terms, you know, point out how intolerant the conservative church is, you know, I'm like, well, I don't know, man. I, it just seems like some people on the far left side of things are just

as intolerant against anything conservative, you know? So yeah, I, I don't know. Like I, the church struggle is struggles with stuff. We need to be called out. Non-church people struggle with the same stuff and rather than calling it out, I would say it's the body of the love and grace of Jesus towards people that are wrestling with stuff. But yeah, so I don't know. I probably wouldn't get too worked up over it. I'd probably just get like, eh, kind of old, kind of, yeah, kind of well-worn territory. Next question from Davis, to whom do you think the church should be situated, the lost or the saved? In reading through Acts and other places in the New Testament, I've come to the cursory

conclusion that the church is for the building up of believers so that they can be salt and light in the world. The church is not necessarily a place for unbelievers to be saved, but a place for believers to be discipled. And you go into more details here with your question. And you don't want the church to become exclusive clubs, but you're not sure if it's helpful to be seeker sensitive, trying to reach lost people. Yeah. So I would be on your side. The kind of debate between is a church a place of evangelism or a place of discipleship? I would say or a place of discipleship. I would say it's a place of discipleship, which can be a form of evangelism. I think when believers gather together, they gather together primarily, I mean, historically speaking, primarily to eat bread, drink wine, pray, and learn the apostles

teaching. They're doing things that believers do. That's what that means to gather as the ecclesia, as the church. I mean, and yeah, you're right. I mean, all throughout the book of Acts, this is the emphasis all throughout. I would say the New Testament as a whole has that emphasis. You do have a, you know, it's not really an either or. I mean, Paul does say, you know, if an unbeliever enters your midst and you're, I think this is the speaking in tongues passage actually. Oh yeah, it's right there. Um, yeah. Later in first Corinthians 14, he talks about, you know,

if an unbeliever came into your midst, you know, and you're acting chaotically, you know, how's that a good witness and stuff. So it's not that we should assume that everybody in our gatherings is an actual Christian, But I think for those who aren't Christians, I would say the design would be to show them what the embodied communal Christian life looks like. Now, this might not describe many church services today, but man, I mean, if you look at the original design of the church and when the church gathers, they gather as brothers and sisters and mothers and fathers. They're sharing food.

They are praying for each other. They're sharing resources. That can be pretty compelling. Like the nature of the church community, the way it's designed to be can be really attractive where men and women are treated equally, even in a, even if it's a complementarian context, people should see women being upheld and esteemed and dignified and, um, men being humble and being servants, um, sexual standards being applied equally to all, money being shared, the poor being helped. I mean, these things can be intrinsically evangelistic in the sense that people can look at this and say, wow, I want to be a part of that. What does it take to be a part of that

family? Obviously, I wish it wasn't obvious, but I mean, today when church services are more of, you know, a monological sermon, worship, people standing, you know, facing forward, a few people using their gifts, some chit-chatty conversations, and you go home, I would say that that's not wrong, obviously. It can play a role in one's discipleship. It can even be evangelistic. I would say it's not as powerful evangelistically as somebody witnessing a deep, rich, honest, authentic, humble, relational community. People are hungering to belong. The more you can experience and witness true belonging in church, that is going to be what's going to be compelling and be embodying the gospel to a world that is desperate to belong,

desperate to belong. We all do. We have that human craving to know and be known, right? To be long, to be missed when we miss a gathering. If you miss a few church gatherings and nobody really knows or cares, I would say, I can't say, I just think that's problematic. Yet it's very common. I just think, I think that's, that's, that's, that's problematic yet. It's very common. So anyway, going back to your question. Yeah.

Yeah. I, I, I do think that church gatherings, you know, the community gatherings should be focused on building each other up, focus on discipleship and that while that can be evangelistic, I don't think we should design our quote unquote church services to be primarily evangelistic. I think there's lots of other creative things we can do to reach unchurched people. And in this day and age, it's just expecting unchurched people to come to church or non-believers to come to church. That used to kind of be a thing, but in our post-Christian culture, it's just more and more is not, it's not happening in the numbers

that it used to, right? So how can we embody Jesus to the world without, by going outside the four walls of the church? It doesn't just have to be like one-on-one evangelistic encounters, because some people will listen and they're like, I suck at one-on-one, one-on-one evangelism. I'm a terrible evangelist, whatever. I think the church can do communal type stuff that is evangelistic, serving the community, canceling or not canceling, but instead of having a traditional church service, do what some churches do. They do like a serve Sunday.

They go out in the community and serve, tangibly serve the community on some level. Or, you know, we used to do here in Boise. I would love to do this again, but times against me. We used to do monthly, we called them city forums. We rented out, actually, no, we got space volunteered to us. One was like a really cool building called the Linen Building. This old, used to be an old linen factory and really cool space in downtown Boise. It holds about 200 people. And we would meet there once a month and have open forums on really just like hot topics. Uh, the first one was on homosexuality. The second

one, we talked about hell. Uh, we talked about different Christian views of hell, um, answered questions. Um, uh, we hosted a, a, uh, Christian Islam dialogue. We had a Christian and a Muslim have a dialogue together, clear up misunderstandings in each other's faith. That was a, that was a great one. We did a race one that got, I remember that got pretty intense actually, man. Ooh, that was, that was, but it was great. It was awesome. And again, a lot of people were Christians that came to that. Other people weren't Christians. And it was like, Hey, we're going to present something in Christianity. We're going to answer hard questions and we just want to have a public kind of dialogue. It was kind of like Paul at the school of Tyrannus or whatever in the book of Acts

when he kind of ran it out that hall and kind of just kind of gave lectures and stuff in a more public kind of setting, rather than inviting people to church, take Christianity to a more public forum in a place where non-believers are going to be. That's one of many ways in which we can still have a sort of corporate evangelistic event. I wouldn't say it was evangelistic in the sense of preaching the gospel. It was more like an intellectual, like exploring the Christian faith on a safe intellectual level. We did one on the problem of evils. That was, that was a great one. Okay. Next question. Matthew, my question relates to your most, your recent podcast on Christian nonviolence and your interpretation on the violence commanded in the old Testament. Um,

um, trying to understand your line of thinking, which seems to base ethics on commands in the new Testament, but not necessarily doing the same with our understanding of the character of God. Possibly the best way to ask my question is this, do you agree with Brian Zahn when he says God is like Jesus? God has always been like Jesus. There has never been a time when God wasn't like Jesus. We haven't always known this, but now we do. Yeah. Brian and I hold to the same non-violent position, but we get there different ways. In particular, I think we have different understandings of the old violence in the Old Testament. And I think Zahn and Boyd, Greg Boyd, are on similar pages here, and I would be on a different page. I want to make sure I'm not, I don't want to misrepresent them. So let me, rather than trying to sum up

their position, I would rather just maybe describe mine. So yeah, I do think that there's discontinuity and ethical trajectories between the Old and New Testament And in one sense, for those of you who didn't bring a land to church last Sunday and slit its throat, you agree with me. Uh, for those of you who eat shrimp and, um, pick up sticks on Saturday and on and on it goes, I mean, there, um, there's and have tattoos, you know, there's, um, you would, yeah, there's certain things that are clearly ethical norms that are clearly different between the old and new covenant. So when I talk, and a lot of people, you know, um, this isn't like that controversial. So in my book fight, I talked about, I mean, I had like three or four chapters on the old Testament. And I talked about

this framework of ethical trajectories, that some things are permitted in the old and permitted, prohibited in the old and permitted in the new. Some are permitted in the old and prohibited in the new. Some things are prohibited in both, you know, so we have ethical trajectories in scripture. The classic book on this is by William Webb, Slaves, Women, and Homosexuals is what it's called. And he looked at these trajectories and said, with slavery, there's a trajectory moving from endorsing slavery to moving away from it. Doesn't quite end in the New Testament, but we're headed that direction. Women were treated somewhat misogynistically in the Old Testament and the trajectory moves towards full equality of women in the New Testament.

Basically returning back to the Genesis 1 and 2 vision. With homosexuality, we don't see that trajectory. We see marriage defined the same way in the Old and New Testaments. We see same-sex relationships treated the same way in the Old and New Testaments. So, with some ethical demands, we see changes in the Old and New Testament. And I would say, I think we do see a trajectory with violence. We do see violence allowed in some passages in the Old Testament. We see violence even commanded in some passages in the Old Testament. We see violence even commanded in some passages in the Old Testament. Deuteronomy 20, verse 16 and 17 is a classic example. Do not leave anything alive that breathes when you enter the promised land, the conquest,

the conquering of Canaan. Now, yeah, I think that God did command that back then. Just because God commanded it back then doesn't mean that is a command for all time. And again, we see this with many other things, things commanded in the Old Testament that are not commanded in the New. And throughout the Old Testament, we see this allowance of violence, sometimes even command for violence, slowly drifting away. And the prophets form a really good bridge here. We're in the book of Isaiah, Hosea, Amos, and others. We see a more critical approach to violence. Isaiah's, I mean, it's fairly pervasive in Isaiah. And you see the prophets looking forward to a time when the Messiah comes and you get the impression that he's going to usher in a kind of a new ethic of violence. They're going to hammer their swords into plowshares and spears into pruning hooks. Is that the Isaiah 2, 4 or whatever?

So, yeah, so that's how I understand. I'm okay saying God can't even command violence in the Old Testament and then say no more in the New Testament. We see this with other ethical trajectories. I think Zahn and Boyd, I think they disagree with me here. Or let me just say, just, there is another view that I think they would hold that, um, that no, like if Jesus says, love your enemies, then that must always capture the heart of God for his people. And I, yeah, I mean, I just think that, I just think that creates more problems than it solves. I mean, if you say no, God, when God said it's recorded in Deuteronomy 20, don't leave alive anything to breathe. Okay.

Say, well, maybe they misunderstood God or maybe they, that was their representation of what God said, but isn't really what God said. I mean that, I just have a lot of questions about like what it's. It's clearly recorded as a command from God. Was it misrecorded? Was it, I don't know. There's just a lot of problems there, especially when Israel didn't fully carry out that command. They didn't. They did save alive some people that breathed in Canaan.

And the entire book of Judges is structured on them not obeying that command. And then later on in the post-exilic prophets and Ezra and Nehemiah and everything, like all, I mean, in the Kings too, I mean, throughout the Old Testament, you have this thread of here's the results of Israel not obeying that command, not cleaning out Canaan do the conquest or whatever. I've got issues with the conquest. I raises all kinds of ethical questions in my mind. Um, but in terms of the coherency of scripture, I think it just does make more sense to say, God really did say that. And he says not to do that anymore in the new Testament. So

yeah, that's my position. There's different within the nonviolent sort of community. Are we a community? We're not in the nonviolent community. We're not in a community. Well, among people who hold to nonviolence, yeah, there's differences of opinion on what to do with the Old Testament. Next question, Amanda, how do you feel about Christian authors using ghostwriters? Great question. My former pastor just published a book using a ghostwriter. And when I read the dedication, it felt a little disingenuous. I don't know. Let me just think out loud here. Yeah. It's pretty common. First of all, yeah, it's pretty common. First of all, I got a friend of mine. I think he's ghost written 20, 30, maybe even more books for largely Christian authors. Um, won't tell you his name. Um, I've, I've, yeah, I've, I've talked to publicists about ghostwriting. Um, I've even,

I've even explored this against him. Well, I've even thought like, should I be a ghostwriter? But it was several years ago when I was like, kind of needed another job, some extra income. I loved to write. I'm like, man, I could be a ghostwriter. And, um, but even then I was like, ah, I don't know. I don't know if that's, I didn't know what I thought about it. Like, so I kind of, I wouldn't, I wouldn't do it today largely because I want to write my own books. Right. But, um, I don't, I would say if it's kind of a, I would, I would way prefer if it's acknowledged somewhere, even if it's like this book was written with the help of so-and-so or something like that, I would prefer that for sure. Um, not all ghost, but I mean, ghost writing is typically the ghost, as I understand it, the ghost writer would sit down with the, with the quote unquote author

and get tons of ideas. Sometimes they spend a day together, two days, he's taking a copious notes of what the person wants to say. So while the ghost writer is doing the physical writing, So while the ghost writer is doing the physical writing, typically he is still conveying the ideas of the author. Now he's still writing the book, but then he submits it to the quote unquote author. The ghost writer submits it to the author. First draft. What do you think? Is this captioning it?

The guy's like, yeah, yes, here. Yes, here, yes, no, no on this, yes on this. And so, you know, is the ghostwriter doing all the writing? I mean, he's typing the keyboard, but whose ideas are they? Well, it's largely the author. Well, it's largely the author. But yeah, I would prefer it being acknowledged so that people don't think that these clever, beautiful phrases, this amazing prose, because typically ghostwriters are really good writers. That's why they get jobs in ghostwriting.

So you get this like nice, well-written, flowery book, you know, with like great pros. And if people think, wow, my pastor is just a beautiful writer. Ah, I don't, I got a problem with that. That's almost like giving the impression you're more talented in a form of art than you really are. Kind of like, I don't know. Let's compare it to a painting. Like if I had some, if I said, Hey, I want somebody to do a painting for me. I want you to do this, do that. Uh, I want to, uh, this cool, like tree that's has a sunset behind it and color it this way, that way. And somebody produces a beautiful painting and people look at that painting and say, did you do that? And you're

like, yeah, like, wow, you're an amazing artist. Like that would be disingenuous. If somebody said, no, you know, I had the idea of this tree and I hired this amazing painter to do this. He would rather remain nameless or whatever. I would, that does feel better to me. It's not uncommon. I'm not going to name any names, but I don't think it's too much of a secret.

But for preachers that preach a lot of sermons, I'm thinking of one in particular. I won't say his or her name. I won't say his name, but yeah, this person in particular, you know, preaches a ton of sermons and he has basically an editor slash writer that takes the sermons and puts them into book form so that the book, the book are kind of a collection of sermons. Um, and I don't know if this person acknowledges that or not. I think so. I think it's, and at least in my world, it's well known that this happens with this preacher and probably quite a few other preachers I would imagine. Okay. Uh, let's see. I mean, we have, uh, one, two, two more. Okay. Um, what is your gut reaction or well thought out opinion? Yeah, I can, I guess I can try to do

both of those, uh, towards large evangelistic parachurch camps for youth, youth camps. I've had a mixed experience with a specific camp in the Sequoias as both a camper staff and a counselor. My wife is a youth pastor. We've had amazing experiences with kids at this camp, but I've also seen some not so great things as staff and some negative effects on kids down the line. My questions are, should we be taking youth to camp? Do you think they are hurtful or helpful for building a belonging community for the next generation? Great question. And I've been all over the map on this from loving them, loving youth camps to mocking them and thinking they're problematic and worthless and to now holding to kind of a mediating view of, I think they can have a healthy place in some people's discipleship journey.

So let me start with my first phase, loving camps. I still remember going to a junior high camp as a junior higher. And yes, I mainly chased girls and that, you know, and ate too much candy and, you know, went off the blob. I think she'd be outlawed. My gosh. And yeah, I had a great experience there. Was it all profitable for my discipleship? I don't know. That's questionable. There are still things I still remember to this day. I still remember Dewey Bertolini speaking in ways that was the first time when I was, gosh, I remembered his name. Some of you know Dewey. He's a pretty well-known youth speaker back in the day, back in like the eighties and nineties, I think. And yeah, I still remember for the first time being like, wow, this Christian thing seems pretty compelling, you know, I didn't follow Jesus for like five or six years, but, um, yeah, it was, it was, it was not, was it good for my life or bad for my life?

Wasn't bad for my life. Um, was it the most accomplished thing for my discipleship? Well, no. Could there have been a better way to engage Jesus? Maybe, but it was good. I mean, I encountered Jesus in certain ways during that camp. I've also had great experience as a volunteer youth leader going to youth camps. One in particular, there was an amazing, I just had such a great experience as a youth leader. I was a brand new Christian, came back to Christ or whatever, a year into my faith. And I remember the youth group, I was a part of the college group as a part of said, Hey, we're

going to, we're taking, we're going to help out with the high school youth. They're going to youth camp or whatever. We need some volunteers. So I went and there was some like, some, how do I put it? Some, some teenagers that were going with, they weren't part of the church that were going with the church to the youth camp. They were, they were part of like, it was a low, like low income housing. And I remember, and they said, Preston, you're, you're going to be in that camp, they were, they were part of like, it was a low, like low income housing. And I remember,

and they said, Preston, you're, you're going to be in that camp, that tent. And I was so disappointed. I wouldn't be with the, the rich white kids who said they love Jesus. Instead, I got a bunch of kids who, you know, were, um, clearly, clearly not part of the church I was going to. Okay. And I was like, oh man, this is gonna be a lot of work. I, I, it was so awesome. I had the most wonderful time with these kids. When we went back to town, I continued to like lead Bible studies with them at their house. Um, we went, I took them to the arcade once a week, we'd hang out and lasted about three months, the summer, you know, um, but that, that experience was great. I mean, it was really early on, early on my Christian journey as a leader, I was like, man, I, that kind of opened up my eyes to like, yeah, let's not just stare at the rich white kids

at the, you know, doing the church thing. Let's, let's go to other spaces where maybe the gospel, you know, isn't as the gospel needs to go or whatever. Um, so that, that had a radical, uh, effect in my life that still shaped who I am today. So, okay. So let me speed this up. So I, I've had good experiences with camp. I also have seen goofy stuff happen at camp and, you know, the typical, like, yeah, you know, you go to camp, you get emotionally revved up and you fall in love. You're getting on fire, you know, get on fire for Jesus for a week. And then two weeks later, you're sleeping with the girl you hooked up with at camp, right? I mean, it's, is there any really lasting discipleship benefit here?

Or are you really just, or, you know, sometimes I even say jokingly, you know, yeah, when I grew up, I got saved at summer camp every year. You know, it's kind of like, ah, you get all revved up. And then a couple of weeks later, it kind of wears off and then you're back to square one. It's like, well, what was that for? And I would say that that's kind of true of a lot of things though. I mean, you can listen to any good sermon, get revved up, be on fire for Jesus. And the next day you're, you know, you're back watching porn or whatever, you know, um, like our life consists of experiences that don't always last, but those experiences are good. They, they still, um, salt your journey with some really helpful things. Um, so I, I, yeah, so I, yeah, I don't, how do I say it? I think we should not say, should we do camp or not do camp?

I think we should have camps. And the question we should ask is how can we build a camp experience that is more likely to produce long lasting discipleship? likely to produce long lasting discipleship. Here's, I think camp should be on ramps to ongoing discipleship in local churches when the campers come back. How can we harness these, hopefully, these good experiences, these encounters with Jesus? And how can we take that momentum and maintain it? Not the emotional high. This is where I almost wonder if focusing on giving kids such a high, unsustainable emotional experience, that can be counterproductive because they could equate that with Christianity and not if, but when those emotional, that emotional high wears off,

I don't want that camper, that happy camper to think that now they lost their faith because they don't have that emotional high anymore. The camp also, it can be very unreal, a very unrealistic environment. I think we need to acknowledge that. So I, I take, um, my, I go to a father daughter camp every other year. I take one of my daughters to a father daughter camp at JH ranch. I'll give a shout out to JH. They're not paying me to say that. Um, uh, it's, um, it's not cheap, um, but they do have scholarships that we apply for get every year. Um, and, uh, yeah, it's, uh, it's an amazing, amazing week-long experience that I have with my teenage daughters. When they turn, when they're 16, I take them there. So I got one more to go with my daughter, Josie. And both, I've had just amazing, I would say relationally foundational

experiences with my daughter. And I'd love that JH does constantly say, this is not real life. This is not real life. Real life is not like waking up and having an hour to read your Bible and not going to work, going to get a coffee and going to a talk and having people feed you at the cafeteria and clean up after you. And, you know, just, and then you do fun events throughout the day. Um, so, so I think they're good about like making that clear. This is not real life. This is an oasis from real life to regroup, reboot, build some foundational things with you and your kid so that when you go back to real life, you've laid down a thick layer of relational good in your kid's life. So yeah, let's keep camps, but let's keep asking that question. How can we do things at camp that help produce long lasting disciples,

not just a momentary emotional experience? All right. Last question from Karen. What books do you recommend parents and budding preteens read around sexuality and gender? Both husband, uh, I'm sorry. My husband and I both grew up in a sexually dysfunctional home and don't have good role models for healthy conversations about sex and gender. Our oldest of three boys just turned 10. I'm feeling some urgency around starting these conversations, but I have no idea when or how to start. First of all, um, by you asking this question, you're far ahead of the game. Secondly, 10 o'clock, 10 o'clock, what day is it? 10 years old is not too young at all. In fact,

some would say, yeah, they should have started at seven or eight. 10 o'clock's a great, why do I keep saying 10 o'clock? It's not even 10 o'clock here. It's like 425. 10 years old is a great age. I think, um, they're old enough to where they can start to understand some categories. Um, yeah. Young enough to where it's not super awkward yet. I found if you wait to like after puberty, sometimes it just, if you start the conversation, then it just, there's an awkwardness there, but 10 o'clock. Oh my word. All right. I gotta, I gotta wind this up. I'm gonna start saying more weird stuff. Um, 10 years old, I think is a great age. Um, recommendations. Uh, my friend, Dr. Corey Gilbert, he's going to love this shout out, uh, C O R E Y Gilbert,

uh, like it sounds has done a lot of work, um, in this area. So if you Google Dr. Corey Gilbert, or if you go to, he's got several websites actually, but, um, going beyond the talk, Going Beyond the Talk, www.goingbeyondthetalk.com. You'll find lots of resources there. He's written a book called I Can't Say That, Going Beyond the Talk, Equipping Your Children to Make Choices About Sexuality and Gender from a Biblical Sexual Ethic. Corey has a PhD in psychology, I believe. He teaches at Corbin University and has his own practice. And he is, I've taught, I've gotten to know Corey over the years. He's incredibly knowledgeable in like sexuality and gender questions. Very knowledgeable works with a lot of teens and families does like marriage counseling and coaching. Um, he's, he's the real deal. He he's,

he's great. I have not read his book. Okay. I've not read his book. Um, I have a copy of it. Um, he's, he's the real deal. He he's, he's great. I have not read his book. Okay. I've not read his book. Um, I have a copy of it. Sorry, Corey, just haven't gotten to it. Um, but, uh, it looks from what I know about Corey, it looks like this is kind of, it looks like a great resource. I would, I can easily say at the very least buy it, check it out. I think it's like five bucks on Kindle or something like that. You can look on Amazon. He's got several, he's got like the parent guide and other resources related to it. So that, that would be, I would say go there. I, you know, I wrote a book living in a gray world. That's more for teens. I would say 13 and 18 year olds. I don't think a 10 year old typically would be able to read it and enjoy it.

I mean, my 12 year old hasn't read it and I don't think he would want to. I'm not a reader. He would rather have a conversation. I would also at least check out Christian Sexuality. Again, that's an online discipleship resource for parents and youth leaders. It is again focused on 13 to 18 year olds is our target age range. Um, but it would be, yeah, maybe, maybe down the road that that would be good to get. Um, but I think it would actually, you know what I, so we were just releasing and I wasn't planning on advertising this, but we're, we're just releasing an individual version of Christian sexuality. So christian-sexuality.com, um, we created this resource. We released it last year for youth leaders

to go through teens with, um, and also parents to use for their kids. Um, so that, that might be you in a couple of years to, to go through this with your kid when he reaches 13, 14, depending on his maturity level. But it would be good even for you, even if your kid's not ready to go through it himself, it would be good for you to go through because I think it does, it would help you understand the categories of things that kids are wrestling with. And, um, yeah, it, it, it wouldn't hurt, um, to, to go through that. So, but yeah, I would, I would start with Corey Gilbert going beyond the top.com. Okay. Well, let's wrap it up folks. Uh, thanks again to all my Patreon supporters. Uh, love y'all for, uh, well for who you are and thanks so much for supporting

the show for giving us such great, great questions. If you do want to support the show through Patreon, get access to, um, other Q and a podcasts that are behind the Patreon support wall, if you will, then you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw support to show for as little as five bucks a month. So, okay. Uh, without further ado,

we will close this out and we'll see you next time on the theology in the raw. Thank you.