Theology in the Raw - S9 Ep962: A Christian Approach to the News: Jason Woodruff (The Pour Over Podcast)

Episode Date: April 11, 2022

 Jason is the founder and director of the Pour Over Newsletter and Podcast, which reports on the biggest news of the day, summarized in a way you'll actually understand and enjoy, paired with brief Christian perspectives. Stay informed while staying focused on Christ.  In this episode, we talk about why he started The Pour Over, the mission behind it all, and how Christians should approach the news of the day. Sign up for the Pour Over newsletter at: https://www.thepourover.org –––––– PROMOS Save 10% on courses with Kairos Classroom using code TITR at kairosclassroom.com! –––––– Sign up with Faithful Counseling today to save 10% off of your first month at the link:  faithfulcounseling.com/titr or use code TITR at faithfulcounseling.com –––––– Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out Dr. Sprinkle’s website prestonsprinkle.com Stay Up to Date with the Podcast Twitter | @RawTheology Instagram | @TheologyintheRaw If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review. www.theologyintheraw.com

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. My guest today is Jason Woodruff, who many of you, most of you probably won't know that name, but many or most of you will have heard me talk about the Pour Over podcast. The biggest, I'm going to just read their byline here. The biggest news of the day, summarized in a way you'll actually understand and enjoy, paired with brief Christian perspectives. Stay informed while keeping focused on Christ. I was blown away when I came across the Pour Over podcast a few months ago. They also have, primarily, it's a newsletter that goes out giving you the information, the news information of the day, without giving you a biased perspective, a biased slant on that news information. If there is any bias,

it is to bend us toward our allegiance towards Christ. So Jason is the founder and one of the writers of the Pour Over newsletter and podcast. And I just wanted to have him on the show to talk about like, hey, give us the backstory. Tell us what's going on. How did you come to form this awesome news outlet? So yeah, I had a wonderful conversation with Jason. He's a super humble, wise guy. And I just, I love the mission behind the podcast. So please welcome to the show, the one and only Jason Woodruff. all right hey friends i'm here with jason woodruff from the pour over podcast and we have known each other for about 30 seconds on skype so i guess jason thanks for being on the odds and raw first of all um i'm excited about this conversation let me you, because I don't even know if you know the backstory here, but man, the back backstory is

I've for a long time, I've been so just jaded by narrative driven news outlets to the point to where I had to delete all my news apps. And I typically get my news from listening to long form podcasts from people that are not committed to a particular narrative. And that's kind of where I get my news. But I'm like, yeah, sometimes I just want to just give me just can somebody give me the facts of what happened today. That's it. Hey, Trump did something. This is what Trump did. This is what he didn't do. Biden did this. This is what happened today. That's it. Hey, Trump did something. This is what Trump did. This is what he didn't do. Biden did this. This is what happened. Great. You might hate it, might love it, but I'm going to let you make that decision. So when we started average putting sponsors on this podcast, which is kind of a new thing, my guy who finds sponsors said,

hey, you should check out this podcast. And I was blown away, dude. I was seriously like, this is what I've been looking for. So I am, my audience should know that you do, we do, you are a sponsor on the podcast. This conversation is unrelated to that. Like, I'm like, okay, I want to just have this guy on just, I want to hear your heart behind what you're doing, have you explained to the audience, but this is not, this is not like paid con. This is just a natural conversation. So all that to say, Jason, thank you for coming on the podcast. Yeah. Thanks for having me on. So, I mean, I gave a little bit of kind of a running start. I would just, who are you and what led to starting the pour over podcast and newsletter that goes out

to tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people? Yeah. Yeah. So I, uh, the pour over started really as a personal exercise for me while I was getting my MBA. Um, and so it, I had finished finals after the first year and had a few weeks before my internship started. And I can relax for a few days at a time, but was starting to get restless and looking for something to do. And really, I have always loved the news. I consume tons of news. It is not anxiety or anger-inducing for me. And I don't really know how to describe that other than it's just interesting. And so I've always consumed a lot of news, but

was frustrated with a lot of the things that you just said and specifically wished there was a timely Christian news source. Like there are great Christian news sources out there. But a lot of them tend to like add thoughtful, prayerful reflection on events that happened a month ago. Or they talk about what's going on in the church, you know, like, Hey, what is Tim Keller doing these days? And, and then when it comes to like timely world news, my frustration was a lot of those news sources were very obviously aligned with an individual political party, you know, and, and they existed on both sides kind of classically they're, they're like Republican conservative, uh, news sources. And it's just like, you know, I, it feels like as a Christian, I shouldn't care what a Republican

should do about this. I shouldn't care about what a Democrat should do about this. I should just care. I should just be informed. And there are tons of Christians like yourself, like you were just saying, that I think kind of rightfully unplugged from the news and saying like, hey, I can't stay up to date with this 24 hours news cycle and not be anxious or depressed or angry. And so I'm just going to opt for being less informed. And it's like, well, so as a personal exercise for me, what does it look like to try to do this? And so I had this conversation over dinner with a friend and was like, I'm going to do this. And I'm going to send you an email.

I'm going to summarize the news. I'm going to try to truly put Christ first. And I'm going to do it for a few months and send it in an email. So you hold me accountable. When did you start it? When was that? When? Yeah. When was that moment? So that was May of 2018. And it's been going for a while there. I thought it was like last. Okay, go ahead. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's sort of been going for a while because like after a year, we had like 400 readers. I mean, it really was like a personal exercise. We had a couple other people helping out, but it was like the only value was to ourselves writing it.

And then so we started 2020 with 2,500 subscribers to the newsletter roughly. And then ended started 2021 with like 35,000 and we're now, we just crossed 150,000 this week. So it's, it's really ramped up. We started treating it kind of like a business and finding advertisers and, um, trying to grow in 2020. And, uh, and then I went full time in July of 2021. So you're, so this is your full-time job running the pour-over?

Yeah. What other kind of team do you have around you? I'm curious because people always wonder, like with my podcast, do you have like a big machine behind you or is it just you? If you peek behind the curtain of the pour-over, what am I going to find? Yeah. So I'm the only one who's full-time. We have a – and everyone involved is, is pretty young. Um, you know, 20, 25 to 30. Um, and so

there's a woman who's a part-time Kathleen. She's an editor and, uh, also helps out with our Instagram. And then everyone else is like super part-time and that's how it was for a long time. But everyone was just like, you know, five hours a week. And then I would do a little bit more than that. Um, and so we have, we have four writers, um, a couple editors. Well, I guess four writers includes myself, three, three people that just write, um, a couple editors, um, a guy who helps with the growth and then our, our podcast, we, so the primary medium is our newsletter. It was newsletter first. And then we now, uh, have a podcast. It's the same content. It's well-produced. It's not like a robot reading

the newsletter, but it's a, it's an audio version of the newsletter. And, um, there are a couple people on the podcast team. Okay. It's you. And then more recently, the last several I've listened to have been a female on there. Is that, um, one of the other writers who's been, so I, I never, I have very little to do with the podcast. We helped doing it. So we have, um, yeah, it's a couple and it's a fun story that a couple of friends, um, guys that I knew through my their brothers, and then their sister is the, is the female voice and they just kind of rotate. But all of that, like they're amazing and awesome. And we write the newsletter and like drop in Slack, like, Hey, go turn this into a nice podcast. And they run with it. Wow. Can you explain then, I guess, so the, yeah, the newsletter is the script for the podcast, right? There's no real content

difference. Is that accurate as I've tried to compare the two? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there are occasionally differences, like for example, and I don't know when this will be released, but what's going on in the world today is Will Smith slapped someone or Chris Rock at the Grammys. And that happened really late Sunday night. And so I was actually just scheduling, like moving the newsletter from Google Docs into MailChimp. And the podcast had already been recorded. We had a big story on the economy. And like my phone is blown up.

It's like, okay, we now need to write about that. So that was a rare instance where the podcast had already been recorded. So you would get different... You got a story about the Grammys if you read the newsletter. But if you got the podcast, you got the story about the economy. And then we kind of caught up the podcast. You got the story about the economy. And then we kind of caught up the podcast on Wednesday. But in general, yes, it's a script for the podcast. I guess we've maybe gotten a little bit ahead of ourselves. Can you describe for somebody who has

no clue what we're even talking about? Hopefully, they've gotten some idea. But what is the Pour Over newsletter podcast? How long? What do you guys talk about? Yeah. Yeah. So like I was saying, really what we wanted to do was to say, to fill kind of the gap of saying Christians being aware of what's going on in the world. So we, we like select our stories in a very different way from most Christian news sites and that we read all the biggest news networks and just whatever they're talking about, we talk about. And so it's not, we are trying to summarize and help Christians process from a foundation of their faith, the biggest stories of the day, not the most significant. So we'll get criticism,

which is totally valid of like, why didn't you talk about this? Like, this is a huge thing that's going on. That's impacting the church that's doing whatever. And it's like, yes. And there are other people that are doing that. Um, and, and so we'll talk about what happened at the Grammys and like, we cover a bunch of politics, the economy, I mean, COVID for years, all the biggest headlines. And then we'll pair the, we do three kind of larger stories. And each one is, we're very concise. Large for us is like 125 words. The whole email takes five minutes to read. We put a read time up top in the newsletter. And for those longer-ish stories, we'll pair it with some Christian perspective. And all of that is, all of those are pre-written. That was kind of the first hurdle that we had jump over of, hey, I understand why there's not thoughtful, prayerful reflection on things that happened an hour ago, because there hasn't been enough time

for thought and prayer. So how do we do that? And so we have a very narrow scope of what Christian perspectives or insight will give. Really, we are trying to pair what's happening in the world with some foundational Christian principles to help people not separate what's happening in the world from their faith. As I experienced, I listened to it whenever it comes out. So it comes out three days a week, right? The podcast and the newsletter, Monday, Wednesday, Friday. And that's recorded the night before. So it comes out three days a week, right? The podcast and the newsletter, Monday, Wednesday, Friday. Yep. And that's recorded the night before. So when I'm listening Monday, Monday, that was on Sunday.

So something happened Monday morning. You would address that like on a Wednesday. Would that be accurate for the most part? Right. Okay. Which is, yeah, and that timing. There are a number of people that want us to go to five days a week. And we're now, for a long time, we just didn't because we didn't have that capacity. We're approaching that. And so it's an interesting internal discussion of, I think there is something valuable. And I hesitate to say this because then we're going to go to five times a week and everyone's going to point me to what I said here. I think I know what you're going to say, but go ahead. Go ahead. No, there there's like, obviously it being a concise, uh, of the news helps come into the talk. There's value in kind of slowing down. Um, same thing is true with it coming out

three, three times a week. And I think it's like, hey, we want you to be informed, but you don't need to drink from the fire hose. And there's value of just kind of being aware without diving all in and allowing it to consume you. And so there are times that the best example is like what happened on January 6th happened on a Wednesday. And so we didn't write about it until Friday morning. And at that point, when we were writing about it, it's like, man, it feels weird that we aren't like describing what happened, but the whole world

is watched is what happened. And there's so much fallout from this that like, how do you do it? And that was an, we thought about like releasing, uh, a newsletter on Thursday or Wednesday addressing it. And we're like, no, you know, like, I think part of what we're doing is, Hey, take a beat. Um, but, but there's also, I mean, I I think part of what we're doing is, hey, take a beat. But there's also, I mean, I can make strong arguments for it being five days a week as well. Yeah, I could definitely see, but I would love it five days a week. I listen to it every morning when I take a shower. It's the perfect timing.

It's a five, six minute shower. I put it up in the little windowsill. It's right in my ear and, you you know i can kind of dovetail and it's just it just gives me here's the major stuff going on in the day here's how here's what i loved most most about well not most it's hard there's so many things i love about it but you know as i listen to different news outlets and i i you know i, I try to listen to this side of the aisle, that side of the aisle. And sometimes you feel like you're listening to, you know, the news on Venus and then the news on Mars. It's almost like they're describing two different

worlds, you know? So, it's kind of up to me to kind of say, okay, let's try to piece this together. But, and I've said this often, you know, if the rhetoric of a certain news outlet is not helping you love your neighbor and enemy more, then you might need to turn it off. And that's why I turned it off. Because I listen to the right side of the aisle and you think every Democrat's an idiot. And you listen to the left side of the aisle, you think every Republican's a racist Nazi. And you listen to the left side of the aisle, you think every Republican is a racist Nazi. And it's like that's not helping me when I meet my Republican neighbor with a MAGA hat or meet my neighbor with a Biden flag. And like you, because I'm so – I've separated my identity from – yeah, I don't want to get into myself. But you can say my sure exile.

I'm an exile in Babylon. My identity is not Babylon. So whichever Babylon, Babylonian wars are going on, it's kind of more, I don't want to trivialize it like it's entertaining, but it kind of, it's kind of like, oh, this Babylonian leader ripped on that one. And it's like, wow, what a horrible way to rule the world. You know, I'm so glad I belong to a different kingdom. wow, what a horrible way to rule the world. I'm so glad I belong to a different kingdom. It's kind of how I – but I can even sense my heart like being tugged in those directions even as somebody who has deliberately separated my identity from that.

So this is what – like you guys do a great job, an excellent job of truly not showing your cards. Like you'll describe the event. There's not even like intonation and flexion or, you know, a little backhanded jab. And sometimes you guys do introduce humor, but it's, it's in my, from my vantage point, it doesn't, you're not doing the underlying jab to the other side. You're just kind of saying something kind of funny that everybody can kind of agree with. And I don't even know know if that's intentional but the few times when you had a open door of like just neutrally describing an event which somebody might say yeah that's ridiculous that they would say that or do that you don't show your cards and i'm so glad you don't you know it's so i i You know, it's, uh, it's an interesting, because like core to the pour over

is saying politics just matter less than what the world would have you believe. And, and it's, it's to say, Hey, if, if I'm a Christian first, that means I can't be a Democrat first. That means I can't be a Republican first. That means I can't be an American first. I'm a Christian first. But so much of the news that we cover is political, overtly or politicized. And it's still important to know what's going on. And so what we've done is we have, of our writers, we have like, we have writers from across the political spectrum. I would, um, and, and everyone, especially if we're writing about something that's politically contentious, both sides will kind of read and sign off and say like, Hey, yeah, you haven't like grossly misrepresented, um, what I'm trying to say.

And that's not like, we spend a, a lot of time thinking about how both sides are going to view something or hear something, not because it's our goal to be center or like perfectly balanced, but because that when the, even if you were to agree with what we say, like if we were to rip on Trump, for example, even if you hate Trump, we're now no longer a reliable, unbiased news source, you know? And so like, and we certainly missed the mark. I mean, it's a whole bunch of humans behind there making the judgment calls, but to say like, Hey, to help people let their guard down and, and say, okay, here's what's going on. And to be able to hear the Christian perspective in the Bible verse that we say, an important part of that process is to an important part of that process is to not take the jabs, not take the low hanging fruit and, and to say, Hey, you know what, when people hear their political party attacked, and I would say this is wrong of them, but it is true and totally happens, uh, with me and people on our team.

When you hear those attacks, your walls go up, you're angry at the other side. And so to just try to prevent causing that certainly is something that is not unintentional. I'm curious how you guys are able to gather the facts, and even that term, fact, gather the facts of what is happening in the world. When you're going to traditional news outlets that are bending the facts in the direction they want it to go, that's where I've become a disenchanted with. Even things like if some event happens and then people share the picture or video on Twitter and then everybody's retweeting, retweeting, retweeting. It comes out a week later that that video was completely taken out of context. This has happened so many. There was a guy who's documented – this is going to take it for what it's worth you know that in the last five years i think that there has been um i think over a thousand racial events that turned out to be later turned

out to be hoaxes um now that's a still small percentage of the thousands and thousands of thousands of racial things that weren't hoax okay so that you know but a thousand that's a still small percentage of the thousands and thousands of thousands of racial things that weren't hoax okay so that you know but a thousand that's you know justy's smollett and it was a classic example and um then you have you know the covington catholic thing you know you got several things where where it's like even as i saw i'm like oh my word this is horrible and i was like drawn into it and then later i'm like oh yeah that i'm this is horrible. And I was like drawn into it. And then later I'm like, oh yeah, I'm glad I didn't retweet that

because it turned out to be not true later. I've seen so much of that that now I'm kind of like, I see anything. And I kind of shrug my shoulders and like my response is maybe. I need to spend 20 hours actually maybe flying out to this place and doing my own journalism to actually actually say okay this is what happened how do you is that true is is it hard to to

to get okay here are the actual facts of what happened another just real quick another example you know there was a picture of a Ukrainian soldier kissing his kids goodbye as he went and fought in battle. And everybody's retweeting, look how sad this is. And all it turns out to be it was a Russian soldier kissing. Right, right. Which is why I never, I don't retweet. First of all, I'm not a Twitter justice warrior.

I try to do justice in real life, not on a screen or whatever. But yeah, I don't know. Does it take, not on a screen or whatever, but, um, you know, yeah, I don't know. I would be, does it take a ton of work to actually say, okay, here is actually what's happening just to be able to report it accurately. And how do you do that? Right. Well, so, um, the, and, and this is again, I think a really valid criticism of the pour over, but the way we select stories is potentially like, for example, the news that we might cover would be, Hey, here, like the news is that it's being retweeted, you know, and like, here's a photo of what's being retweeted or something like that or um or we just present like we can only do we don't do any

firsthand journalism we we don't do investigated journalism and so there have been multiple times like with the covington catholic thing where we ran the story and then the next time we go hey turned out that wasn't true and it's like that was a a big both the initial story and the fact that it was fake were or you know turned out to not be what it appeared there was a much much bigger narrative that wasn't being told yeah the story that we ran the first time was completely inaccurate when more information came out you know okay um because it was based on the information that we had and when more information came out, you know, um, because it was based on the information that we had. And when more information came out, it was a, right. What everyone was saying was totally inaccurate. And so there's part of it. That's just like, Hey, we, but if you followed

the pour over, you're, you're going to be aware of things as they happen. And if here's an example that would be like, we we've gotten some emails because we have people from across the spectrum, including some, what I would classify conspiracy theorists of basically saying, Hey, you, you are just parroting what, um, the mainstream media is saying about Russia. You have to go to this, go to this weird site and listen to what this person is saying. And it's like, you know what? If what that person is saying turns out to be true and we've been completely wrong, we will run that story. But right now, based on the information that we have, here is what's happening in the

world. And it's a little bit like what you were talking about earlier. Our goal is for Christians to feel slightly removed from all this and to say, hey, I am a Christian first. I'm not, you know, like my citizenship is in heaven. And one of the categories of the Christian perspectives that we will give is to say, keep an eternal perspective. Stay focused on eternity. out of saying, wow, everyone is obsessed with the Grammys and the award shows or a sporting event or something. And it's like, you know what? No matter what happens, no matter if your team won or lost, nothing, the eternal significance has really changed.

So we shouldn't let that dictate our emotions. And sometimes that application is, wow, what's happening in the world right now, like in Russia and Ukraine is terrifying and scary. And we need to pray and hear opportunities to give and here's other things to do. But another thing that we need to do is, is to be grateful that this world is not our home and not the end and that Christ is returning and there will be a day with no more war. And we can't let that, you know, make us gloss over the reality of the pain and suffering and whatever. But it is also important for Christians to say, hey, no matter what happens, no matter if that war comes to my front door, my eternity is secure.

And that is what you're missing if all you do is follow the main – like the largest media sources. You're just going to hear the facts. You're going to leave terrified, and you go on with your day and spread the fear. I think from my vantage point, I think you guys do a good balance. I naturally mean there's a good balance between taking world events seriously, taking injustice seriously, not downplaying it like, oh, it doesn't matter. Who cares? But also making sure we're reading

that through the lens of our ultimate kingdom identity with a broader worldview, with hope, without, again, this kind of back and forth, without downplaying the significance of what's going on. Because that's really, I don't know, I mean, I'm here, I'm preaching to the choir, but I mean, we do absolutely need to be aware of what's going on. Absolutely, we should be agents of justice in the world. But in the last few years, maybe a couple decades, like the means by which we learn about those events has been so politicized and propagandized or whatever. Like there's so much more going on than people saying, here's an evil in the world. Let's be concerned.

It's let's read this event through the. Let's be concerned. It's, let's read this event through the narrative that I'm going to make you, that I want you to read through it because then you'll be more, you know, giving your allegiance to my tribe. And then that's going to lead to more sponsors and ads and money. You know, there's just, there's such a machine. Right. Neil Postman wrote about this, Amusing Ourselves to Death, what, 50 years ago? I don't know if you've read that book, but I read it recently. And he was talking about the age of television and what that has done to the medium of news. And you could almost scratch out in that book written 40 years ago, television and just put internet. And it was eerie how relevant that is and how accurate it is that the very medium of relaying the news has reshaped how we even think about our own identity in the world.

So, yeah, again, I think you guys do a good job there. I want to just confirm too, like you are deliberately reporting on events that aren't necessarily the most significant from a Christian perspective, but are the events that are being talked about, that they are being frontlined. And so you're just trying to give, regardless of whether you think they should be frontlined, they are being frontlined. They are what people are thinking about. They are what's affecting people's hearts and minds. And so you want to give a less biased overview of those events. So that is deliberately what you're trying to do, right? Because you said you get critique for that.

Yeah. And again, I think like I would, the reason we don't select stories based on significance is not because we think our way is better, but because we think there are other organizations that do that well, you know, like, and, and we don't have theologians on staff. Um, we, we aren't pastors. We don't want to be your church. staff. Um, we, we aren't pastors. We don't want to be your church. And, and so our goal is to say, Hey, here are the things that you're going to hear about, whether or not you care about sports at all, you're going to hear about who March madness. And so here's, what's going on in March

madness. You can be aware of it. We're going to spend 15, 20 seconds telling you what's going on. And if it's what truly everyone's talking about, it's one of the top stories, we'll add some perspective there for you to say like, hey, okay, in the world, this is what's going on and this is how I can approach it as a Christian. And that's not a complete, like, it's not like, Hey, here is the Christian appropriate response to it. Like I said, all those are pre-written. So it's, we we've taken some categories of things where we saw in the first years of doing the pour over when no one read it, read it of like, here are the areas that we fall short and go wrong. A lot of the time I talked about one of them being keeping an eternal perspective. Like it's, I think the best example of that was around, um, around the impeachment trials of like, okay, this is huge world news. And certainly why Trump is

being impeached might have, uh, like there's potential for the reason for a president being impeached to have, uh, moral impacts on society or something like that. But regardless of who is president, God is in control. If the president is removed from office, guess what? We're still called to love God and love others and our eternity is secure. And so this thing that can be all consuming that you should be aware of, that if you're a Christian and you have your head so far in the sand that you don't even know this is going on, you're failing to acknowledge that you do live in the world with other Christians and non-Christians, but we don't need it to be all-consuming. Yeah, no, that's good, man.

Do you know the demographic of your listeners or like, do you feel like it's does lean right leans left or do you, there's a huge part of your demographic one that kind of resists the, the partisan divide or, um, yeah, it's so, I know we have people both sides because we hear from both of them. And like there are some stories that we will run that and by and large, the feedback is positive there are people that are very strongly conservative and very strongly liberal. Uh, we get some insights into like age and gender, um, through MailChimp and, uh, who we kind of think of. And the other group that we know is a really solid portion of our audience is, is kind of like the, the classic example of a pour over reader from what we can tell is like, um, mid thirties mom who is bothered, like may have some political leanings, but they are just not to the magnitude of what you read in other news sources. political values is so much higher and they're like, ah, I want to be informed, uh, and aware,

but I'm, I'm not that passionate about my political party in general. Yeah. Yeah. Are you allowed to talk about your political viewpoints or do you try to keep that completely, which you probably, I mean, my, but right. I, uh, maybe upbringing, upbringing. I mean, I don't talk about them. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so like, I mean, I, my dad is a pastor. I grew up in, uh, obviously in a Christian house. Um, and I don't know, I guess I don't think my dad is a public with his political views because he's a pastor. So maybe I won't, uh, out him in any way, but, uh, in general, I would say I am, I'm quite center. Um, and I have, I have voted for both parties and so it, it really, yeah, I, I, I think, and, and I, I wouldn't be, I don't know who my dad has voted for every time. I wouldn't be surprised if he has voted for both parties and just said, modeled both my parents and also through the pour over and just kind of efforts to do that of saying, Hey, our goal really needs to be

putting Christ first. And yeah, I I'm quite sympathetic. Honestly, what, what I will say and what is core to the pour over is that we believe, and I believe you can love Jesus and have voted for either party, you know, and, and that is what, one of the things that we want to dismantle of saying, like, if, if you are a single issue voters than a lot of people. But don't make that the only issue that anyone can vote for. If God has placed on your heart and it's reflected throughout your life something, if you are passionate about immigration and work for a nonprofit that helps and have opened your home and done other things, it would be inconsistent for you to then vote for someone who has immigration political or policy views that are contrary to your own. But God has also placed on other people's hearts to your own. But God has also placed on other people's hearts different issues. And that is a good thing. The fact that people have different passions and talents is a good thing. And that will necessarily impact who they vote for. Who you vote for is not a salvation level issue.

So there are going to be Christians on both sides of that vote. I'm curious, do you have any favorite, like somewhat mainstream or just favorite journalists, like people that are doing journalism, like when they talk about an event, you would kind of be like, oh, this person for the most part is high on my trustworthy list. I've got a few that I can think of if I'm curious. Yeah, I would love to hear yours. Honestly, I read a lot of news summaries and then dive into to kind of understand the topics that we should be covering. And then we'll dive in and read things from both sides and different stuff. But because of that kind of top-down approach,

I don't follow individual journalists necessarily. But I'd love to hear. I do end up reading a lot of individual journalists, but I'd be interested to hear who you follow. I do end up reading a lot of individual journalists, but I'd be interested to hear who you follow. So I get mainly from podcasts because I like the long form, like conversational nature of it. I'm trying to think of another,

I'm blanking on this guy's name. So here's a few that come to mind. Andrew Sullivan would be one. I feel like he's very honest um barry weiss might be my favorite uh between andrew and barry they both i they just scream honesty to me again not that there's a big difference between do they get it right every time no but are they being honest with where they're at yeah yeah i think so like and if they get something wrong they're they'll turn around and say hey i got that i got that wrong you know um

i really like matt taibbi um uh katie herzog's lesser known um but she she she co-hosts a podcast i'm blanking on the guy's name oh Oh, Jesse single. Jesse single is probably the most controversial among all of those. Ah, they're all, well, everybody's controversial, but, um,

yeah, Jesse single and Katie Herzog co-host a podcast. And, and, um, again, I feel like they're, and all of,

I wouldn't say all of these would be left of center. None of them are Christians. In fact, yeah, Katie Herzog's, I think an atheist, she's lesbian, married to a woman, Barry Weiss is married to a woman, atheist. Andrew Sullivan has a Catholic background. He's gay. Matt Taibbi's left of center. Jesse Singel would be left of center. Anyway, those are ones that I – oh, and he's been in the spotlight a lot. But I do listen to Joe Rogan a lot and some things. Another one, he says some things. I'm like, no, that's just flat out wrong, especially when he wanders into religion. I'm like, oh, my word, that's a train wreck.

But again, I feel like he is a genuinely curious person and he can be passionate he'll say something you know that I may or may not disagree with but I know or I don't get the impression that he's lying to me almost every other mainstream outlet I just don't have

and some more than others I don't want to sweep everybody under the but I just think they just seem so narratively like they can't their job depends on them having a certain viewpoint they can't not have a different perspective like and i know they will gain more followers if they say this this way or whatever and don't say that but people like barry weiss and others who have at great cost have said things that have been unpopular for the their typical tribe you know like to me that that is kind of the mark of honesty have they said things and done things

that have caused them to lose social cred with their with their tribe every single one of these has that's why they're on substack and been are you familiar with all those names or is that no honestly and this is again it's uh it feels to me a little bit like i i sit at the intersection of news and uh in christianity and just i'm like i'm such on the border of both of them that like when i'm talking with my dad he'll mention something he's like well of course you've read, you read whatever. It's like, no, I don't, I don't dive that deep into what's going on in, uh, Christendom right now. And I feel the same way when people talk about kind of classic journalism as well. So I've heard some of these names, but I don't, I don't follow any of them closely. Okay. Yeah. If he, I mean, yeah, Andrew and Barry are,

they're amazing they're yeah wish you could hang out with them but um are there others that you are there others that you like if there was a if you can be on the phone with somebody like not that that's possible whatever but like if you could have somebody on speed dial whenever you wanted like a good evaluation what's going on do you have names that pop in your head that you're wanting to share and not really not not really? Not, not really. And I'm not, I'm not trying to dodge the question either.

I just don't, like I said, I mean, the, I'm part of what I do is I'm in the, I'm in the newsletter news summary space. So, uh, every day of the week I get like, you know, 15 different newsletters and, and so there are, there are people there, but journalism, 15 different newsletters and, and so there are, there are people there, but journalism, like you're saying, uh, and, and I'm sure I could learn tons of them business model wise, like they're all on sub stack. That's kind of the same space, but I'm, that's, I get a few newsletters, like the flip side, for example, which will take a big topic and say, this is what's going on the right. This is what's going on the left. And then I'll click and dig in to those, but it's all driven. It's all kind of driven by saying like, okay,

once I fully understand, or once I understand enough to be able to represent this in 25 words, or once I understand enough to be able to represent this in 25 words, I'm good and I'm moving on. Um, so there are, I have an MBA. And so like when I'm in, when I'm reading news in my free time for just kind of like personal, uh, enjoyment, it tends to be way more into the economy and business leadership and stuff like that. Then, whereas I get the impression that what you're asking is more political, like more, uh, umbrella. And so, um, yeah, I mean, if you, if you want to, if you want to talk about what's going on with yield curves right now, like, Hey, we can, we can have a cool conversation about that.

It's wild, but that's just not – it's a little bit more niche. So this is – so is the Wall Street Journal, do you feel like that's a respectable – I mean obviously it's huge and famous and everything. Where does it sit? Does it sit right of center or is it pretty central? And is that for the most part when you're reading Wall Street Journal, do you feel like this is an honest, um, evaluation or. Yeah. So, and it's weird, like the wall street journal and NPR is another good example. Like it depends on like NPRs opinion pieces are left of center. They're like more classic reporting is, is much closer to center. Same thing with the wall street journal, but reverse. So like if you, if you're reading a wall street journal opinion piece, it's most,

it's going to be right of center. Whereas if you're in, especially like if you're looking for economic or business news, it's just, it's a well funded, they're great journalists there. And a lot of that just isn't political in nature. So they're going to... It depends on what type of information you're looking for and where within that umbrella you're sitting. But generally, yes, I read the Wall Street Journal, but it's not necessarily for their, their political takes, but it's another thing. Like I read a whole bunch and if something

political is on the wall street journal, um, then it's like, okay, this is, they tend to give the top spot to something business or economy related. So, hey, that's a major indicator that this is a big political thing and I need to read about it here and other places because it's something we're going to write about. Okay. All right. So you say you do follow news, obviously, very thoroughly and kind of have a pulse of what's going on. When you look forward to the next couple of years, so isn't there a, I mean, what's the 2022 election? Is this the Senate or Congress? I don't know if you know. Yeah, midterms, Congress. There's the Senate, a third of the Senate seats will be up. And I don't know what percentage of the House, but there will be House

seats as well. What's your prediction? What's going to happen as somebody who is not invested in the one side or the other heavily? It's, I love asking people who aren't in a sense, aren't, aren't so invested on it going one direction or the other. What do you, what's your prediction? Are you allowed to, if you're like, I'd rather not say it's sleep. You know, cause I'm going to ask you about 2024. No, no. I mean, You're like, I'd rather not say I'd sleep. You know, I'm going to ask you about 2024. No, no.

I mean, I'll say because, yeah, that's I mean, the first thing I'll say is certainly like the pour over doesn't the pour over doesn't care. The pour over is just going to cover news regardless. And and I also don't don't care in the large sense of being like, hey, you know, regardless of what happens, we'll be fine. But just kind of like intellectually, some of the things that I think are interesting is the Republican Party is fractured, but is majority still, uh, kind of in, in Trump's camp, but there are some that are frustrated. And a lot of those people are just not running for reelection because it's become really difficult for them to, they feel like they don't have a party and it's become really difficult for them to win. Um, and then the Democrats are really united against Trump, but not around anyone. Like you mentioned a Biden flag earlier. I don't think Biden flags exist, you know, like no, no one. Um, it's just interesting that, uh,

I don't know what will happen. I, I, I think there's a good chance that, uh, the Republicans will reclaim the Senate. I feel like they have more focus. Like both sides are equally passionate, but the Democrats are a little bit more scattered in how to focus that passion on election day. Like Republicans know who they want to vote for and the ideology they want to vote for. Democrats know they don't want that, but the difference between a cent, like a centrist Democrat and a leftist Democrat, like those could be totally two totally different parties. And you've seen that with, they control the house, the Senate and the white house and aren't able to get things passed because of division within their own party. Um, it, it, it seemed like a recipe for them to be

able to do whatever they wanted, but people like Joe mansion who are more center, just like, Hey, no, we're not, you need to cut a zero off this bill. And then you're really offending, uh, you know, people like Bernie Sanders or AOC who are farther left. And so because of that, if I had to guess, I would say I think Republicans will have a strong midterm. Because from the little I've heard, and again, I'm such a piecemeal of sources, the ratings on Biden and his administration are not good at all, right? I mean, it seems like the next two to four years could see us swing back to the right, largely because the quote-unquote left

in the last year and a half has not been a popular... I'm not going to say he's done a bad job. I'm saying whatever they've been doing hasn't been maybe as popular as, for instance, other Democrat areas of leadership. The other thing that is interesting is Biden is very old. So he like and the and he's quite unpopular within the Democratic Party. So like it would be really hard and it might happen in 2024, but it'll be hard if Trump runs for the Republican Party to nominate anyone other than him.

Because all like Governor DeSantis in Florida, he's working with the same base. Whereas like people who like DeSantis also like they might like DeSantis more, but a lot of DeSantis is credibility comes from like the Trump base. And so if they're pitted against each other, I would expect Trump to win. Whereas, like I was saying, there's not like, there are a lot of strong Democrats or people that are passionate Democrats, but there's not like a huge Biden base. Like Biden is relatively unpopular for a president, even within his own party. And so the party might be able to unify around someone else, even if Biden runs for reelection. And I mean, the other thing is like, I don't know why at 80, 82, you would want

to be president. He can't run for real. There's no, is that, I mean, I don't follow it close enough that he is running for re-election. If that happens and Trump gets elected, I'm going to say that's the Democratic Party from my – very nightly – this is me talking out loud. I don't know what I'm talking about. From my minuscule vantage point, I would say the Democratic Party got Trump elected if they put Biden up against – It's – At that age, I mean,

are we allowed to talk about his mental state or is that still, we're not allowed to, when do we get a, are we allowed to talk about that or, or does that become like a dog whistle to the Republican party or whatever? I mean, that's,

I don't know. He's not going to run. There's no way. I mean, it's certainly, that would be entertaining to me. I honestly, as somebody who's in exile in America,

I, I think that'd be entertaining. Yeah. Let's do that. Let's see how that goes. Yeah. You know, I guess speaking from, from, somebody who's in exile in america i i think that'd be entertaining yeah let's do that let's see how that goes yeah you know i i guess speaking from uh from the vantage point of a uh an owner of a or the operator of a media company it would make good news oh do you feel like sometimes you're in district 11 watching the capital i mean it's it's eerily

similar we can even talk about like the will slips will smith slap or just hollywood in their role it's like no it's sometimes i'm like oh wait i thought i was watching hunger games i forgot i'm watching like real life right it is i i mean there were there were comments this was years ago but like the um the the director of house of cards like, in the final season, he's like, yeah, this is going to be the final season. We can't compete with reality. And it's true. And it's part of, to bring it back to kind of the pour-overs mission, it's a real danger to Americans. We write the news.

We cover the news. Obviously, we think it is important to be informed. But I was talking with someone yesterday, and they said, they're like, I have no data to back this up. I'd be willing to place big money on the fact that Christians as a whole read and watched a whole lot more about Will Smith than their Bible this week. Again, no data to back it up, but I would say that's probably true. And so part of protecting your heart against that and saying, hey, it's good to be aware of what's going on. But it's also, even if you're getting your news from the pour over who's trying to be

politically unbiased and trying to point yourself to Christ, we are being shaped by culture a lot. We are spending a ton of our time talking about these things. And one of our hopes with the pour over is to say, what if we could help equip people to turn these conversations, these things that are already going to be talked about into conversations where I get to share my faith or let people aware of my faith or, oh my gosh, their response to this thing, their calm in the midst of this chaos or their hope in the midst of this fear or their love for both sides in the midst of all the anger going on. I want that. That is so attractive

and appealing. And, and that's one of the, the perspectives that we'll give is saying, Hey, you probably don't have control over the situation. You know, it's a vote in, in Washington, DC, or it's a war, but you can, you do have an impact over how you speak about and respond to this event and, and make it your goal when you're talking about this, not to convince people of your side, but to leave them with no doubt that you love everyone involved, even the people that you might be actively rooting against, you know? everyone involved, even the people that you might be actively rooting against, you know? And, and I think that that could, if we could get Christians moving in that way and saying,

Hey, this is bad for my party, but it's good for God's children. And so I'm, I'm supporting it to the detriment of political, uh, movements that that would be such an amazing, glorifying, loud communicator to culture. If you haven't listened to the Pour Over podcast yet, you have to. Go check it out. I think I've sent a lot of listeners your way because my audience tends to be disenchanted with the politicalization of everything for the most part. Then they might lean left, lean right or whatever. We all, I guess, do on some level. But yeah, it's – for those who haven't heard it, I mean you guys do such a good job. You scatter throughout the five, seven-minute podcast, like several references to let's keep our focus on the kingdom.

Let's be informed. Let's know what's going on. Let's stand for truth and justice. Let's be concerned about the war going on in Ukraine. Absolutely. We're not separating ourselves from society. We won't be agents of truth and justice but let's constantly let's do that within the framework of keeping our allegiance to christ and

just you guys do a great job um so yeah so i i don't want to kick a dead horse so your prediction for 2024 i almost hate asking it because i just i I personally just don't really care. Um, but you, you would say if Trump and DeSantis go head to head in the prime, like you think Trump's going to win out and that it could be Trump Biden again. I gotta get my popcorn out for that one. Yeah. I,

I mean, I, I don't think Biden will run again. He has said he's going to run again. I think not, it would be hard for him to He has said he's going to run again. I think not. It would be hard for him to not say that he was going to run. He would just lose a lot of political capital if he was already kind of viewed as a lame duck president a year in. So I think there are plenty of reasons that he would say that he's running again, even if he weren't.

say that he's running again even if he weren't so who is who else would run if he doesn't then who's the next couple in line that you would think not should but will end up running right um you know i don't i i don't know and and it will be interesting to see and no one's going to come out in the next year because it would be it next year because it will be hard within the party to announce your candidacy before Biden has acknowledged that he's not going to run. Especially, a name that comes to mind is Pete Buttigieg. He's still young. He, and maybe I'm missing it. Like it seems to be, uh, not hate bid within, within the party. And like, he, he certainly has to, um, I would be shocked if he didn't run for president again, but it might not be in 2024. And yeah, and then on the Republican side, it's hard for me to imagine Trump doesn't run again.

DeSantis is clearly gearing up to run. Mike Pence seems to be gearing up to run. up to run mike pence seems to be gearing up to run um and but again like all of those those three people are pulling from the same different like with subtle difference differences the same core group and um yeah so does santa say and again i don't say one more time i don't follow this closely enough to have a strong opinion. But DeSantis seems way more sane and potentially likable from right-leaning people versus Trump. Maybe it's the world I swim in where I know a lot of right-leaning people who hate – they're very much the anti-Trump. Trump, you know, um, where DeSantis could be. And again, the five minutes I've heard him, you know, it just seems a little more reasonable saying, um, but what would line up on probably similar things, but, um, that's exactly it. Like he, he, um, tends to, it's, it's a slightly softer edge.

Um, you've removed some of the, some, but not all of the, the personality, um, and kind of, I don't know how to, I don't know how to say this in a, in a politically correct way, but unprofessionalism of that Trump brings, you know, just kind of like a harshness at times. Um, but a lot of the same policies and w and so like, I, I think that he would, for the reasons you're saying there, there are a lot, there's a large group of like never Trump Republicans that I think could get behind, uh, DeSantis, but as a whole, the Republican Party still likes Trump. And so it's a, I mean, it's a numbers game. DeSantis couldn't win if everyone that liked Trump voted for Trump. Yeah. Okay. Based on the polling that I've seen.

But who knows? And maybe when those are polls, Those have been wrong famously before. But that's kind of at a high level the landscape that I have seen. Again, without – similar to you, without really caring. But do read the articles. You didn't mention Harris on the Democratic side. Do you think – she's not super well-liked, right? mean, she got her, she got pretty blasted in the primaries. Republicans than Biden is like, they, they really don't like Harris. Um, and yeah, she just,

from my perspective, she hasn't really done anything. She's been, you know, she's been made the lead on like the, the border crisis and hasn't really moved the needle a whole lot there from what I can tell. So like she hasn't, she is a historic VP and has the name recognition, but I don't know if she has, um, done enough with that position to feel like she would get the support of, of the party. But, uh, again, these are, these are, uh, speculations from someone who does not dive too deep into any of this and tends to stay at a high level. Um, and, and is not overly personally interested or concerned. Yeah. Yeah. I've already spent way too much time even asking any questions about it.

As someone, as someone who really doesn't care, but it's just like, it's again, I care on the level of like, it's, but it's just like, it's again, I care on the level of, like it's, you know, it's an interesting world event

and I happen to live in the country that is going through this, you know, and it does affect, it does affect, it affects. Absolutely. World economy,

reputation, affects Christianity, affects a lot of stuff, you know. So yeah, I don't want to downplay the significance of it, but Jason, I've taken you over your time, man. Thank you so much for what you do. I'm so, I'm just so thrilled to have found your podcast newsletter. Um, again, I've, I've listened to every single episode in the last, um, well, ever since I found it last

three or four months. And, uh, yeah, I, uh, I enjoy, I guess, listening to your words every time I'm in the shower. I don't know if that's weird for people to imagine. Hey, really appreciate it. Thanks so much for the support and for having me on. This has been fun. Sure. All right. God bless, man. Thank you.