Theology in the Raw - S9 Ep966: Deconstruction, Progressive Culture, Emerging Church, and the Need for Missional Theology: Dr. Dan Kimball

Episode Date: April 25, 2022

Dan Kimball is the author of several books on leadership, church, and culture. He was one of the founders of Vintage Faith Church in Santa Cruz, California where he still serves on staff. He is also a faculty member at Western Seminary and leads the ReGeneration Project, which exists to equip and encourage new generations to think theologically and participate in the mission of the church. He has a master’s degree from Western Seminary and a doctorate degree from George Fox University. In this conversation, we talk about pastoring in a super progressive city, why people are deconstructing at a seemingly higher rate than before, what unbelievers think of Christianity, the need for intellectually honest missional theology, and why loving our neighbors is so crucial to the gospel.  https://www.dankimball.com/about –––––– PROMOS Save 10% on courses with Kairos Classroom using code TITR at kairosclassroom.com! –––––– Sign up with Faithful Counseling today to save 10% off of your first month at the link:  faithfulcounseling.com/titr or use code TITR at faithfulcounseling.com –––––– Save 30% at SeminaryNow.com by using code TITR –––––– Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out Dr. Sprinkle’s website prestonsprinkle.com Stay Up to Date with the Podcast Twitter | @RawTheology Instagram | @TheologyintheRaw If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review. www.theologyintheraw.com

Hello, friends. If you'd like to support the show, you can do so through Patreon at patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw. If you can't or don't want to support the show, please do leave a review and or share this episode or others that you have enjoyed on your social media platforms. Spreading a word is a great way to support theology in the raw. Okay, my guest today is Dr. Pastor, author, leader, speaker, Dan Kimball of Santa Cruz. Dan is the author of several books on leadership, church, and culture, and is one of the founders of Vintage Faith Church in Santa Cruz, California, where he still serves on staff. He's also a faculty member at Western Seminary and leads the Regeneration Project. Dan is one of the best voices I know

who knows how to reach a younger, more skeptical, more progressive generation. Dan is just a great guy and knows how to reach people because he himself has a lot of the same questions that younger people, skeptical people might have about Christianity. So this podcast is long overdue. I've been following Dan for about 20 years, and this is the first time, first time, Dan, that we have actually had a face-to-face or screen-to-screen conversation. So please welcome to the show the one and only Dr. Dan Kimball. Dr. Dan Kimball.

All right. Hey, friends. I am so excited about this conversation that we're about to have with the one and only Dr. Dan Kimball. I, goodness, Dan, I have known your name since you wrote, literally wrote the book on the emerging church back when that was like all the hubbub back in the early 2000s and have been following your work for a long time. So thanks so much for coming on the podcast. Yeah, I've got so many questions and I know we're not going to get to them all, but thanks for giving us an hour of your day. Yeah, well, greetings from Santa Cruz, California. It's not sunny out. It's cloudy here. So how is it in Idaho right now? It's sunny and pretty cold. High is in the 50s, low 60s. That's something people don't realize about those coastal California cities is you guys have a lot of that coastal fog that sometimes –

I know in Ventura, California, you can go a long time without seeing the sun. It can be cold and water's freezing. Yeah. Santa Cruz is in Monterey Bay. So it's like 80 miles south of San Francisco or so. And it does, you know, summers can be very foggy here. But it's still beautiful, but it does get cold for sure in winter. It's not LA or San Diego. I've only been there once. Yeah, beautiful town. You've been pastoring there. How long have you been pastoring the church there? Well, I moved here in 1989. I was in a band. The band broke up. We were living in London at the

time, moved back to America. The bass player actually got a job in San Jose. I'm like, let's go to California. So we all moved out here. And I really liked Santa Cruz. So I came here and then I was working, then started volunteering at a church, Santa Cruz Bible Church. Then I went full time on the church in 1990. And then Santa Cruz Bible Church planted Vintage Faith Church in 2004, and so I've been with Vintage Faith Church since 2004. So I've really only been in one church 30 years, Santa Cruz Bible and changing or planting Vintage Faith and stayed here the whole time.

Can you describe, for those who haven't been to Santa Cruz or kind of unaware of the context, can you describe Santa Cruz to us? Yeah, Santa Cruz is a beach town, so that brings a certain cultural vibe to the town in that way. It's where they filmed the movie from 1987 or 8, The the lost boys vampire movie. So if anybody's seen that, that was filmed here, the boardwalk and all of that, there's a university, UC Santa Cruz, and, uh, that lends a strong flavor to the, uh, to the town. And so it's sort of like a mini San Francisco or a beach San Francisco or a beach Berkeley. So that's kind of the flavor.

It's very progressive in all different ways, which makes it exciting and challenging at the same time. Yeah. And by progressive, I mean, really, among the most progressive cities, I think, in America, would that be an overstatement? I mean, we think, you know, Portland, Seattle, New York. I mean, it would be right there with the way of, you know, a more progressive mindset. Yeah, I'd say a beach version of that. Okay. For sure. Yeah, and that's, I mean, in many ways, that's what attracted me to the place because it wasn't, or to this town.

You know, when I got here there, I remember the first day I went downtown, there was, they're not here anymore. There's like a ton of Hare Krishnas, like running up, playing music and going up and down. You could just see the diversity in the town at that time. So it just drew me to this place because of that. And that's why I settled here. And my friends actually all moved to other places and I stayed and got married and been here since. Wow. And this is kind of a big open-ended question, but what would be maybe some of the most challenging aspects of your ministry, given the specific cultural context that you're

ministering in? Yeah. I mean, even though the church is now, what, 18 years old since we planted it, it feels like, without a doubt, like it's like a missionary venture every day. And I'm not just stating that like with Christian lingo, because the Christian church in Santa Cruz, there's some wonderful churches here, but percentage wise, it's very minimal when you look at the population. When you also look at the younger generation population, it's really, really low. Those that are part of kind of Bible believing churches in town. It's extremely low. And the university percentage wise doesn't have too many campus groups with with too many students in them.

So you are in a it's definitely in a culture of, you know, of not very and I've watched it being here for so long, very suspicious of Christianity, a lot of predetermined, especially now, beliefs about what churches and what Christians are, which we then are constantly having to, you know, say the stereotypes, some of them might be true, say the stereotypes. Some of them might be true if it's biblically true, and then some are not true. So I'm not kidding. It's like it's really, there's not a day that's not a mission adventure, especially if you're involved in people's lives. So what are some of the assumptions that people have with Christians there? Like, is it, oh, that's just irrelevant or old-fashioned? Or is it like, you're a Christian church, like that's morally evil, you know? Yeah, well, I would say, again,

that I think in the past, the church was, you know, here and everywhere, you know, kind of seen as more, it's backwards, it's bad music and all those type of things. And we've caught up to that you know the church in fact we still have in my opinion you know bad bad pop christian music often but i know music is subjective so i need to be careful but uh what i'm just saying is like we've caught up to that i don't think no one is saying church is irrelevant anymore um or the pastors or leaders

aren't like you know know, they're not stuffy. It's almost the opposite, which actually can backfire in a way too, from public perception. But I just think we are seen obviously as, and it's what your ministry focuses a lot on, you know, just like immediately you're Christian, you hate gay people, you're anti this, all of those things. It's just a strong reality. Last week, two questions came in. We have a seven day a week coffee house that we opened up probably 12 years ago, I think now. And a lot of university students come in. And without going into all the details, we've been trying to uh they were trying to a group tried to shut us down once uh they were you know due to theological beliefs they um we last week we had two email what do you believe i'm not going to come into

your coffee house i need to know what you believe so that's the the what we're in right now pretty consistently how do you respond yeah how do you navigate that when people assume like if you hold leave. So that's the, the, what we're in right now, pretty consistently. How do you respond? Yeah. How do you navigate that when people assume like if you hold to traditional views on maybe sexual ethics that you're therefore might as well be Hitler incarnate, you know? Well, as a, you know, one, and I know this is even made fun of a little bit you know,

like if there's a question about anything, about whatever it is, any beliefs that we would then say, like, you know, why don't you come on in? We'd be happy to talk about with you. And that's always there. And I'd say almost the good news is probably I don't know if any time when we've met with people about beliefs of any kind that we might have, that it hasn't gone overall well. And even if they, even if they don't agree, because meeting in person and talking is an entirely different thing than, you know, sending out emails and trying to respond to people's very important questions.

So it's very, it has to be relational in that way. So I'm curious on this, because this is, I've had kind of varying perspectives on this in my own journey, but like when you do get that email or maybe probably not a phone call, maybe a text or email, hey, are you fully affirming or not? Or what are your views on sexual ethics? Actually, I wouldn't even say that, you know, are you, yeah, fully affirming? Do you accept, are you fully affirming and accepting of LGBTQ people? Do you respond like, hey, we'd love to talk about that in person? And if you do respond that way, do they take you up on it or do they take that as, oh, thank you, you just answered my question?

You know what I mean? Yeah, I would say what you just said is probably half the time. It could be about anything you know like do you believe in an eternal hell like come on in and or or or not you know whatever it might be um do you believe in that christianity is the the one faith or what about islam or whatever anything that's uh that could come across demeaning, hurtful, you know, without the relational, like, back and forth. If they're sincerely asking, we always want to just talk to someone in person. So that's what we do.

And if someone doesn't want to continue that, we always will offer that. But I understand. I totally understand. I mean, you do, too, why we're seen like this by many, you know. And so this isn't a question of, I would have the same exact feelings and thoughts about church and Christianity if I wasn't part of a church. So I totally understand it. So we deserve the questions. You know, but that's what, you know, thinking through the lens and the minds and the hearts and the emotions of anyone, you know, that's why it's important to be meeting in person. of time be able to meet in person that that again not that there's going to be agreement but you're saying that that that conversation typically goes well where some of the heat is turned down they don't absolutely think you're evil anymore they're like yeah i'm not sure i agree with that

but you're you can when you see them next week at the gas station you would say hey what's going on bro or whatever um it's friendly after yeah 100 I mean, I'm sure there's some that wouldn't. I mean, there was an atheist guy that a couple of years ago, I forget when it was, he started posts, I think it was Facebook, he was posting things against Christianity in church and even in a mocking way and then singled out our church. And I remember like I would respond very carefully and, you know, lovingly back. And I'm forgetting the exact thing, but he was atheist. And then I'm in a Mexican restaurant. And because I looked him up and I guess I'm like, there's the guy. And and so I'm looking at him. I'm like, and he was reading a book on atheism by one of the main guys in the

atheist world. And so I walked over to him like, hey, this is Dan. And he was a little startled. And then we sat down and we had a wonderful talk. So it's – but see, here's what's really – what's important, and I think no matter what theological topic we're talking about, I do think – I wouldn't have said this 20 years ago as much, but, you know, theology and our beliefs, if you're a church leader or a Christian, it's more, we have to know what we believe more than ever today. Theology and understanding

doctrines is extremely critical for church leaders, but also for the average Christian, because I think before, overall culture matched with, you weren't seen as hateful or a bigot or, you know, anti-atheist or something in a way, even 20, 25 years ago, where today culture. So it was easy to be a Christian 20 years ago, 25 years ago. Not easy, but much easier than it is now today because of beliefs. It's much more difficult. And because the cultural winds are directly often pushing against historical Christian beliefs. 20, 25 years ago, they weren't as much.

I mean, I can still remember like being, you know, being up on campus or around town and I could open my Bible and not feel awkward about it. And I still don't feel awkward about it. But now I'm self-conscious about it. Somebody today would see it like, oh, and start having predetermined decisions about what that means. And as we are all seeing, you're seeing people that are leaving faith. And I think often it is due to if we're not grounded in what we really believe and why, then what happens is I believe it's easier to start rationalizing changes and shifts and maybe beliefs in Scripture that, because it's not to make it easier to be a Christian today or abandon faith altogether.

And this goes back, you mentioned earlier, and I'll stop talking, because I'm talking a lot here. But you mentioned back earlier in the emerging church days that that was Generation X. And it was like Generation X, and it was about reaching the next generation. And it was an exciting time because we were rethinking how to go about church because there were definitions. It wasn't just style. Yes, there were stylistic things that were going on with music and, you know, and maybe room set up, you know, and the joke was coffee and candles or whatever. Those were very real because there was some stylistic change that was happening. But the values that were changing back then that the emerging church world was originally thinking through was there was a different definition of community happening.

So it was like how an older person experienced community and hanging out a lot more than the casual, maybe older generation understanding of community. Evangelism methods needed to be changing and how we're evangelizing a different generation at the time. Those kind of things were changing. And that's what I was very involved with. However, what occurred back then, and I think it's the same issue today, is that then there are some that weren't just thinking through changes of how you define like evangelism or community, or even how you go about preaching or silly things like room environment and music, which, again, is valid, a good thing to pay attention to. But then it was, no, we're going to be thinking about changing, rethinking what the gospel is, what the atonement is, how do we view scripture?

You know, when I started realizing you can't say the same terms. You have to start asking definitions. When you're saying Jesus, who do you mean by Jesus? When you're saying salvation, what do you mean by the word salvation? When you're saying God? And so I think today it's the same thing. If people aren't looking into the depths of surface kind of conversations, you can believe that and then be following a different Jesus. So I really think a different Jesus than the fullness of the scripture. I love you. My favorite book that you've, well, that you've written that I've read is, what is it? They Love Jesus, But Not the Church. Is that the title? Yeah. They Like Jesus, But Not the Church.

They Like Jesus, But Not the Church. In my experience, a lot of people who say they're rejecting Jesus or their faith, they're rejecting a certain modern specific form of Jesus that's been embodied in the church. But if you actually look at the raw, radical Jesus of the gospels, they're kind of on board with a lot of that, at least, maybe not all of it, but it seems to be a distorted picture of Jesus that people are rejecting. I might want to return to the emergent church conversation, but I don't know. I feel like my train of thought's taking me into the more modern deconstruction phenomenon. Not that this is modern or unique necessarily, but it seems to be getting a lot of press these days that whether or not

deconstruction is a good thing or bad thing, what are they deconstructing from? How do we even view this? Do you have any, love to hear your thoughts on this? Cause I imagine you, you deal with a lot of deconstruct people who are deconstructing, whether it's deconstructing from a form of church or deconstructing from the faith altogether.

How have you been pastoring people through this conversation? Yeah, well, I think it changed. I think what you mentioned when I wrote, they elect Jesus, but not the church. It was a lot of attitude issues, like, you know, which is still there. issues, like, you know, which is still there. But I say the criticism at that time was heightened more by, you know, that Christians are all right wing, hyper, you know, conservatives in that way. You know, Christians are very judgmental. And there was a lot of those kind of things that were coming up. And I think today what shifted, and that's why I ended up writing How Not to Read the Bible seeing is the Bible is being used to disprove Christianity or say Christianity is wicked, or how can I believe in a God that, you know, would murder

babies or, and all of these things. So I think what I've watched is the conversation and the criticism has now shifted to theology and doctrine from the Bible. And that's why you're seeing on TikTok, it's flooded, flooded. I mean, if you go on it, you see it. It's flooded with people quoting Bible verses and teaching bits of the Bible and very inaccurately. But then they're saying they're teaching it accurately and they're using cultural context and all the things. So it seems like it's a good, a good thing that they're doing, but it actually is extremely poor hermeneutics. And it's an entirely different shift of how you view the Bible. But to someone that doesn't know the Bible, then they think this must be true. I don't want to be a hateful person. I don't want to worship a God that kills babies and all of these things.

And so that's what I'm seeing as more in patterns of deconstruction in those things. It's not just stylistic or attitude things. It's now moved into very core historical beliefs. I can't worship a God that is a bloodthirsty killer. I can't believe in a God that is a bloodthirsty killer. I can't believe in a God that would require blood sacrifice. If my parents, when I was raised as a child, my parents told me that I was a sinner. That's toxic, and that's trauma. And all of these things are stemming from, like, those are the things that are being talked about today. And that's theology. That's understanding what we believe and why.

So it is a different kind of deconstruction that's been happening in the last few years, you're saying. If you talk to somebody who is deconstructing along those lines, that there are some actual true doctrines, as we would say, you know, or things in the Bible that they're like, that they're having problems with? How do you pastor someone through that? Well, one is, all these questions are really, really good. Like, I keep saying, if I didn't know, I would have the very same questions. So all of these questions that come up, if I didn't know, I would have the very same questions. So all of these questions that come up and I, you know, all of the ones I've watched on TikTok and deconstruction stories and all that stuff, they're very valid questions. So they aren't just, you know, they're not just criticizing. This is the difference. It's not just criticizing style of music or those things anymore.

This is the difference. It's not just criticizing style of music or those things anymore. It's and and so I think one is acknowledging these are actually really good and understandable questions. So and then it's for me, it's always asking. So let's like look at some of them. You know, very calm. And let's look walk through it. If you believe memes and things that God kills babies from that verse in Psalms, or looking at the story of David and Bathsheba, or that God uses excess or violence, or, or it's toxic for parents to call you, you know, to be known as a sinner that in need of a savior, we then talk through. So tell me why, where did you hear about this? Why do you think it? Let's look at what the scriptures actually say about it. And then it's walking through. There are responses to these things without changing your theology.

You know, it's not been saying, OK, God didn't use violence. God used a lot of violence. The cross is violence. So we can't we don't then say well god didn't god didn't order the cross to god didn't you know have the cross in mind and the blood sacrifice of jesus was really just the romans that killed him not because because jesus was a political leader trying to you know break through the oppressive government to whatever that's's why he was killed, not for sin. And that's what's being said. Then you say, is that true? Then let's look it up and see.

So in that way, it's great. There's tons of dialogue that can happen. Compassionately listening dialogue. In my own, I guess, anecdotal limited experience, I can absolutely resonate with what you're saying. I think rather than kind of jumping in really quickly with the right answer or correcting, like resonating with some of their concerns

and even like, you know, I'm personally, I'm okay having tensions within my understanding of scripture where I'm like, man, this text, this passage, this is uncomfortable for me. And I'm okay not immediately solving that and coming up with a better answer or whatever, because for me, the overarching story of scripture is still the most beautiful, compelling story among all the other options. Like I can go, okay, let's look at other religious stories. Are they free from issues?

The answers are capital N, oh, no. Every religion has its own kind of black sheep, whatever, doctrines or teachings. And then, okay, so, or we can just ditch religion altogether. And that's a whole nother conversation. Do you find a godless world compelling?

And to me personally, I just, again, find that doesn't make the problems go away. There's still evil and horror in the world. It just, now you just have utter chaos, which I don't, from my vantage point, I just think the only consistent approach to that would be rank nihilism. And you know, other people don't see it that way. But for me, it's like, I don't need to have every problem completely ironed out. I can take the totality of scripture and say there's a blend of things here that are more difficult than others. But overall, it is the most beautiful, compelling story that I – and not just beautiful and compelling, but also as I look at the world, a basic Christian worldview does make sense of it. I mean, a biblical anthropology

does say, yes, you're a sinner, you're wicked. So is that person over there? So is that, you know, why do we have so much abuse and stuff in the world? Well, the Bible is not shocked by that. In fact, it tells you clearly that, yeah, people are very messed up and depraved. And, um, so I don't know. I, um, but I was thinking what you said, you said something important. I would, at least in my experience, um, and I, I'd probably say this from out, from my understand nationally, this is there. There are a lot of people that raised in great churches and we got some really great teaching on practical, how to do things in life and, and all of that.

But what you said, a lot of them were not taught what the Bible is, the grand narrative, as you mentioned it, the whole story of the goodness of God from creation to, you know, through revelation. And when you don't understand that whole story, then looking at little isolated parts from within it, even if they're matched together to try to prove a case against Christianity, it becomes very confusing. So I do think that's why the Bible Project, you know, with Tim and John, the Bible Project is so important today. And it's also refreshing because people are hungry to learn. I think theology is the new outreach. You know, like, it's not going to be

music. Music's kind of almost getting mocked a lot now. The contemporary Christian form of music, at least looking at TikTok and things by those that are leaving faith, often it's like the music, emotionally manipulative. The lyrics are terrible and all of these different things. I think theology and churches that take doctrine seriously are going to be the way of the future, but doing it with love versus some just in the past have done it just with, you know, almost force, where right, you're wrong, and no argument. The scriptures are truth, but I just, I keep saying it, and that's why what you're doing is so important. I really believe theology and doctrine with love is the way forward that churches have to be really thinking about, you know, with love, with everything about love and community. But, man, we've got to know what we believe today. And we have't think overall, like there are some threads of Christianity that did it well. And then some did it well without love and heart. So they knew the knowledge, but then it was mean and callous. I just think we've got to be thinking theologically today and teaching new generations

what they believe and why. And the Bible narrative, like you said. So I love what you're saying here. This has been something I've been mulling around in my mind. I'm pleasantly, not surprised, but just like encouraged to hear you say it. Because as I reflect in the past, it's kind of like, yeah, churches that had kind of the more culturally relevant ecclesiology kind of attracted people. And then others, good worship band, attractive people. And on the more conservative end, if you had like, you know, solid Bible teaching that seemed intellectual, but it really was, I don't know, more indoctrinating than engaging on a robustly intellectual level, the cultural issues. What I'm seeing emerging is Christians that are truly intellectually honest and thorough and humble and yet culturally very aware of the broader discussion. They won't just say, critical race theory, bad, evil, here's why. They're like, hey, here's several books written by critical race theorists that I've read and And, and here's some things they said that were helpful. And here,

you know, here's some things I question. And we don't just say like CRT, bad Marxist, evil, boom, done. Like, well, that's, people sniff that out a mile away. Like, have you read a book by somebody who's actually, um, so, so I guess two questions, one. So you're saying that like kind of almost a new, I don't want to say attract new, I don't want to say attractiveness. I don't want to, but yeah, I guess I'll use that for lack of better terms. Like the new brand of church that will be maybe more compelling than in the past will be churches

that are intellectually thorough, thoughtful, honest. Like that's going to be, huh, interesting. What's that all about um in the broader culture that's my first question second question shoot i think i forgot my second question yeah let's stick with that first one so i think you're is that is that basically what you were saying yeah i mean i think what you said was and this is i mean i always make sure like i by no means am ever suggesting that we change you know unless there is that you know that this is about like hiding your beliefs or being ashamed which happens of our beliefs or changing doctrine you know or those type those type of things but it means that we

almost have to we have to be more this is why i think there's a lot of deconstruction stuff happening is often it caught people off guard. I never realized about certain of these things. As many, 90, like probably 9% of atheists are loving, kind people that leave everybody alone, right? Loving, kind, wonderful. And then there's the 1% that are the activists, and they're out to try to disprove Christianity in the Bible. Again, I understand why. I'd be doing the same thing if I never really understood the scriptures. But then if that's the world we're in today, then as missionaries in this world, church leaders and Christians have to respond to what the current climate is of beliefs and understanding about faith. current climate is of beliefs and understanding about faith. And that's why I think in the past,

we were amiss on cultural things about music and style and formats of preaching and those things. Today, that's not the issue. Today, it's what do you really believe? And I do think we're seeing people leave faith because it's not easy to really believe in today like it was 30 years ago. And if you're not really sure what you believe, you can be swayed into all kinds of beliefs. And there are Bible teaching churches that'll teach like verse by verse, verse by verse, but you never teach the narrative of the whole Bible. So you can be in a verse by verse church and not even know the whole Bible story. So I just think that's what it means for church leaders and Christians, thoughtful thinking, Christian faith, where the scriptures are all the more central as God's Spirit, writing through people to form the scriptures, to then be, that's going to be the forefront,

I think, of what we're doing today, because that also motivate people for evangelism. Without that, I'm not going to think too much about what people are missing, because I'm not understanding from Scripture what they're missing, or what eternity might be or might not be, whether it's annihilation or it's eternity apart from God, whatever it is, you don't want people to be missing eternity with Jesus. That motivates me tremendously to want to keep going here in this town. But if I didn't know that from scripture and the conviction wasn't there, I'd be so passive about it. Oh, well, I wouldn't think about it as much. I remember my second question now is, why is this now more urgent than it maybe was in the past? This kind of intellectual honesty,

being aware of kind of the really thoughtful counterarguments. Is it simply, I mean, I know it's kind of cliché, but is it the internet? Is it that we're now exposed to so many different ideas to where now? All right. I'd have to put it. I got, I have some of my books right here. Mere Christianity, right? Like I'd have to, I don't, I have it in here underlined somewhere.

I'm going to paraphrase something C.S. Lewis said. And what was this, the 1940s or the 50s when he gave the lectures for this? I think 50s. He says in Mere Christianity, I'm paraphrasing it, theology is all the more important today. This is back then. Because the more information that is out there talking about God, the more wrong information about God there is out there. And then he says something like what were beliefs that were tried and thought through and rejected in centuries past are seen as new, innovative ideas for today. And then he says,

like, why theology is so important. That was when television was just being entered into all of the homes. We had print and radio. Think of today. So that is an urgent cry of why theology is important that he gave back in the 40s, talking about the more information out there, the more wrong information is out there. So Christians need to, why theology is important to sift through what even may sound fresh and new, he says, was old ideas retold. But if you don't know theology, you're going to think they're all fresh and new ideas. So I think he was prophetic with that particular observation. I wonder if too, that in our day and age now, in the last couple of years, especially,

let's say four or five years, there's been such an emphasis on fact-checking and that's fake news and no, you're fake news and no, that's not. Like there really is this kind of like, well, who actually is speaking the truth here? And now you can kind of just – if your preacher is saying something that is wrong, you can just Google it. I remember listening to a guy who was kind of an old school preacher, a great guy. No one would know who he was anyway. But I remember he was talking about when I was in Israel, I saw the grave of Joshua and Caleb.

And I'm like, no, you didn't. I've been there. I lived in Israel. And I Googled it real quick. There's a grave of Joshua and Caleb there. I even texted my brother-in-law who lived in Israel for 15 years. Like, hey, I want to double check this. There's a grave of Joshua and Caleb there. I even texted my brother-in-law who lived in Israel for 15 years. Like, hey, I want to double check this. Like, they're no great.

Like, we don't have that kind of – he's like, yeah, that's BS. I'm like, huh. So I kept listening. Then he said something else. I was like, no, that's not true either. And it made me just kind of discount everything he's saying. And here, just within seconds, I fact-checked a couple of things that were BS. And maybe he trusted somebody else that told him that or maybe he's making – I don't want to credit motivations here.

But it's like – then I kind of checked out. I was kind of like, eh. I don't know if anything you're saying is true anymore. So I wonder if there is that pressure to – if you're going to stand up and say something, you better have your facts straight because people will call you on it. you better have your facts straight because people will call you on it. And if you don't, if you're not sure, at least have the humility to say, hey, here's this argument, that argument. I lean towards this because of such and such and such.

And I think having that kind of intellectual honesty. But my generation and above didn't do that. We felt like if we're on stage, we need to have it all. If anybody asks us a question, we need to have the right answer and stuff. And that just, one, gets exhausting, but you just can't do that. You can't do that. You can't be all knowing of everything that you're, you know, having to pass through. But what you said, I think, what you said was, I think, really important.

I was once in my early years of ministry. I said, I gave different views of the rapture or something like that. I said I gave different views of the rapture or something like that. And I had a pastor really intensely say, by you saying there's multiple views, that shows that you're weak. We need to be strong in our beliefs about what, you know. And I really I'm like, I'm like, oh, my goodness. Like so. And I think that sort of, you know, posture was a lot the, and still with some churches and leaders today, where today, like, all right, this is a practical thing. I firmly believe that churches need to be laying out not just their typical doctrinal statement that doesn't really include many things or just the Nicene Creed. I could believe almost anything and still believe in the Nicene Creed. Like we, I think, I'm not talking about like, what's the word? I think what we have to do

is what we've done as a church, and I know others are doing this, is lay out what are your core beliefs? What are the beliefs that if you're going to be in a leadership role in any part of this church, what are the things that we all have to believe in in agreement to be in unity as a community? And actually to list them out and, you know, say for, you know, the core, the most important is what is the gospel? And because you can't assume people mean the same thing anymore. I say gospel, and it could mean so many different things to different people. So I think local churches and Christians have to know when they're saying gospel, what do they really mean? Then you extend out a little bit, and it's beliefs about not when the rapture is going to happen, or whether amillennial or premillennial, is Jesus

is coming back one day, and there'll be a new heavens and a new earth. Just to hold to that one, and whenever I teach on this, that topic, I always go, he's coming back one day, and through history, here's some different views that churches have been, good people have taught differently on this issue. What they all agree on is Jesus is coming back one day and focus on that creation evolution it's it's madness that we argue about this I'm not talking about atheistic evolution I'm just talking about um did could God have used evolution or did God create like we we should not be arguing about that anymore um I mean yes did atheistic evolution absolutely and even if you don't believe that God could have used evolution, of course, you have like, was there a literal Adam and Eve and those things? I believe so. You know, but even if you have different beliefs on that, we need to be linking arms today.

Don't argue about that stuff. But did God create everything? Yes. That's a core belief. Well, you know, all of those things. That's what we have to know it or it's all wishy. And churches are going to start. They do. They start having internal implosions if leaders are involved and they're believing in all different things. And all of a sudden, this is what it means to be a disciple or this. That's why we have to watch theology more so today because we didn't have to.

There was a lot of assumptions before that everybody believed the same thing, that we're general Christians, but that's not true anymore. And that's why this is so important. You mentioned creation evolution. And this is, again, in my anecdotal experience, I would love if there's some comprehensive data on this, but the overwhelming majority of people I know or hear about or whatever that have deconstructed, are deconstructing, there came from an environment that equated an overly conservative interpretation of scripture with Christianity. And I was raised in an environment where if you didn't believe in like literal six days, young earth, even complementarian views of women in

the church and all these conservative doctrines. Like these were equated with, these are, this is what true Christians believe. If you depart from these, you're departing from the faith. And I just wonder if that, and I'm not even saying those doctrines may or may not be true. I'm saying to say this is the essence of genuine Christianity. That, I think, is inadvertently playing a role in the deconstruction. We've tied the bow too tightly on their shoes. And then when they start running and say, ah, I need to loosen this up a little bit and say, no, you loosen it up and you're going to lose your shoe. I don't know if that analogy makes any sense, but I can't tell you how many people... It does make sense. I can't believe how many people, when they were going to lose their faith over young earth

theology. And again, I'm not even saying that that's incorrect. I'm saying that was the only way to view scripture. And when they came, they were about to lose their faith or did lose their faith, but then they're like, oh, I can actually believe in an old earth interpretation, maybe a non-literal – there's non-literal elements in Genesis 1 to 11. Like that's a possibility for somebody to still hold to the authority of scripture and have maybe a different way of reading some of these texts. And once they found out that that is a possibility, they're like, oh, okay, I can get on board with that. Have you found that to be true? One, it's not, you can't have a thousand percent, but yes, a thousand percent, because that is sadly what you hear about like often. And that's why, you know, we don't have the luxury today, in my opinion, of arguing about that stuff.

Churches and Christians need to – whether the creation or evolution, God created everything from nothing. That's what the scriptures say, and we can have disagreements if you even need to have a firm opinion on exactly how that happened. I don't know. You know, I still think the egalitarian, complementarian stuff, it embarrasses me on both ends to see some of the criticism that's happening in the church today online and on Twitter and all the stuff of like, I read it, I read a complementarian view of, it said something like, you can't have a healthy church if there's female teachers or something like that. Like, you know what? Don't be public about it then, but that's what you believe. Teach it in your church, but all you're doing is fueling animosity, fueling, and that's a wrong thing to say,

because there are godly, wonderful people who believe in the full inspiration and authority and inerrancy of scripture who will have differences of opinion on those things. And underneath everything is, I keep holding my Bible. I take, I love, because the Scriptures, God used the Scriptures to save me, direct me, and that's why the Scripture is so important for everybody. But it all starts with what, this is my question for for anybody today is what is your view of scripture? And that is what we should be asking anybody we're listening to that we're reading their books, listening to their podcasts or watching video is what is the person's view of scripture? Because that is where it all starts.

How do they if you don't know that, then then it could be anything. How do they – if you don't know that, then it could be anything. Again, I think I can feel it when I'm speaking because we argue about such silly things today that I believe are causing younger Christians and older Christians to like bad faith. And we can't – we can't afford that. can't afford that. So let's determine, you know, what are the essentials of the historical Christian faith, love those who have disagreements on the other things, and zone in and defend and teach the things that are most important today. All right, again, I keep talking. I'm here for you to talk. It's so important. Theology is critical today, not for head knowledge, but for life. Yeah. I'm curious at your church, are there things you guys do as a church that may be different than the average church to embody everything you're saying?

Because a half-hour sermon once a week when people are going to church once, maybe twice a month, that can't be like the extent of our discipleship of people in this. Do you have different classes? Do you have, are there things that we don't have a category for that you guys are doing to help bathe your people in, in sound theology? I mean, probably,

I mean, and I think in just most normal churches, I hope they all do this, you know, but like say with all of our staff and interns last year, we went we went through a systematic theology book, you know, from beginning to end, discussion, going through it. In our church, we use four sort of, we say like we're asking God to transform us into a worshiping community of missional theologians. And we use those words and the word theologians in there because we start out with worshiping.

We're all worshipers in this life and for all of eternity. But then we're not to be in isolation. We're meant to be in community. So you need to be a worshiper in community, in local churches, whether a house church or megachurch or Anglican or Pop Rock. I mean, the local church is critical to someone's spiritual formation. We need to be in community, but then it's not a community on a mission. There's a lot of churches that stop there. We worship God. We're in community and we love each other. We love each other. We love the pastor. We want to be together. But that's not why we exist. We exist to be on mission.

And if you're on mission, it means you're engaging with people and then people are going to ask questions, right? So that's why the theology part is important, because how are you going to explain your faith? And the important questions, but if you're in, if you're theology thinking, it should melt our hearts to be worshipers again. And so we talk about those four things all the time, you know, and we will be very consistently going, whether it's every summer we have School of Theology from elementary age up to adults. It's just like we have to be teaching what we believe and why all the more, but in a thoughtful approach and humble approach. approach and humble approach. You know what I love about this is it's, I mean, I hate to say it, but it's a little unpredictable because most churches that would resonate with everything you're saying

are going to be a little more traditional old school in their form, which again, nothing wrong with that. But you guys are like a pretty, I don't know if hipster is the right word anymore or whatever, but like you're a pretty culturally like a relevant church that is very up to speed on. Yeah. Aware of the cultural surroundings. You're not like a super right wing Republican only whatever church. And yet you still value. I hate to say it. And yeah, you know, there shouldn't be the need to say, I know, but that, but what you're saying is i mean even the

type of people that you're reaching santa cruz millennials probably largely maybe gen z some gen xers um they're going to be very thoughtful um typically people that are more progressive are more more liberal enough the right term, but yeah, they're really thoughtful. They're readers. They think through things. They have hard questions. They have problems with Christianity because largely a lot of intellectual reasons. And so to be on mission, you have to be theological, right? I mean, you can't... Absolutely. Be ready. I mean, in your hearts, revere Christ as Lord. In other words, he's Lord, how I respond in our lives. But be ready to answer anyone who asks you. That means you have to be in relationship to give the hope that you have and do so with not with just facts and what you need, but with gentleness and respect, respecting that other people have valid views. So, you know, but it's also an approach like we did. I was I was leading like almost like a volunteer, a group of college students a couple of years ago.

And we just did it again last week with our staff. And we found some of the most updated on TikTok, you know, revisionist arguments about the scripture, about certain theological issues. So what I did was we printed them out, not giving answers, divided it up with a bunch of college students in groups and said, how do you answer this? What would you say? Because just reading them, it certainly seems to be in a disagreement with historical Christianity, but it's using Bible. And so we let them try to problem solve and think it through, proactively preparing them for these questions or ones that they have, and then responding gently and lovingly with how does that work through with this narrative of the

whole Bible and theology. So it's also trying to have them think and why, again, why do they believe is really important. Because're it you keep saying it i know we're kind of repeating ourselves but it's so important to remember like we aren't generally i'm actually embarrassed by some christian music today so i don't just say that but i i wouldn't put that out as like hey look at how relevant we are with christian music today but no one's arguing about the music we're not embarrassed generally by music and fashion and everyone's dressing normal and all that now. But what I am embarrassed about is how we are representing the truths of the scripture that the Holy Spirit gave us so that we know what we believe. And we

shouldn't be embarrassed of them. We should be embarrassed how they're sometimes treated by Christians. But that's why I know we keep cycling back to this. But it's really important because, you know, back we mentioned like in the emerging church days, that's what happened. That's what I realized was it was different, but it was still the same thing. And it's happening at an accelerated rate today because of Internet and TikTok and those things. Well, what happened to the Emerging Church? I'm curious because, I mean, back in my day, that was when I was in seminary.

I was in seminary 2000 to 2003, and that was the big discussion, the Emerging Church. And I remember some people, some leaders kind of went a lot more liberal, and you and others stayed very orthodox, ate the meat and spit out the bones. And then I went on to do a doctorate and got, had a family and kids and everything. And now then I woke up one day, I'm like, whatever happened to that? Like, is that, is that still a helpful category or did it kind of just morph into other streams of evangelicalism? Yeah. The label, you know, was, I mean, I wrote a book called

The Emerging Church, so part of that was also it was the terminology that was being used because it came from Leadership Network that was saying like, what advanced scouts for the emerging church, because they're always looking for what's ahead. So that was kind of a term

and a phrase that started being used. Emerging church, what's the emerging church doing to reach the next generation? And that's kind of what it was about. You know, just like every so often we'll have a wave of what do we have to change to reach this next generation? But like you said, there were some that weren't just changing. I don't want to oversimplify it, but not just changing methodology, but then we're changing theology in very core issues. And here's the thing, time tells. I'm still active in a local church. Many of those that I know that were in that whole discussion are still active and thriving in churches. And those that, I mean, I don't want to get an over stereotype, but you can

just look them up. Those that went in different directions, you didn't, I don't, some of those, most of them, I don't even think are in existence anymore because there's no, here's, I think, the difference. Once you take evangelism out and it becomes like, we have no need for the atonement. it becomes like the we have no need for the atonement we are we are not you know god loves everybody which he does um there's no need for the sacrificial uh atonement of jesus and the blood for our forgiveness then there's no motive to share that and and and there's not a compelling because the churches that keep going we're not just most of, we're not doing it just to be insular, like let's have good community, and we're doing this so that people that don't know the true Jesus and hear about the true gospel can hear about that he died for us, he shed his blood for us, and that there is life and new forgiveness and the spirit,

and there's hope in this world and purpose. I want as many people as possible to hear that. And if you don't have that as a driving in you, then your church will just dissolve. It'll just be an end. And that's what I think happened with a lot of those that went in that direction. Wow. Are you?

Yeah. No, yeah, no, I, I, you know, I,

again, anecdotally that, that does make sense. How No, I, I, you know, I, again, anecdotally that, that does make sense. How did, I'm curious. And I know we're coming up on an hour here in a few minutes. How did you guys weather the pandemic and not just pandemic, but all the politically driven divisions and masks and no masks and vaccines and this and that. And did, was that, did you guys get hit hard with that?

And how did you manage that? Yeah, I mean, with everybody. Like everybody, just whether you're in church leadership or not, it was obviously, what are we doing tomorrow? I mean, the joy of it was that many church leaders, like say here in Santa Cruz, like, you know, we were constantly talking to each other. What are you going to do?

Are you going to go outside, inside? Like, you know, we were constantly talking to each other. What are you going to do? Are you going to go outside, inside? Like, you know, what are you going to do? We were no – we didn't stream videos or anything, like, intentionally before. So we had to do a lot of catch-up for that as a local church. Because the same thing. I mean, this is just a personal thing. We weren't trying to save Santa Cruzanta cruz i'm sorry you know sacramento or san francisco we're a local church embodied in local santa cruz and we're not trying

to extend into different towns that we don't live in and things so that's why we didn't have any of the technology set up for streaming and different things um so it was a lot of catching up and then we didn't really i would say we didn't have, there's very few incidences of like, you know, you're going over on the black lives matter stuff or you're going over and, uh, you are going overboard and, um, you know, you shouldn't be obeying the government and we should be able to still meet because you're not the church. and we should be able to still meet because we're not the church if you're not meeting. I think our church avoided most of that.

So in that way, I think it was sort of a cult. I know two churches that lost like 1,000 people because there was disruption. I think there are certain churches that the leaders went, in my opinion, kind of bonkers and then just made messes. So I hope it was a result of thoughtful Christianity, which then didn't cause giant upsets with some of that. Well, my guess – I mean I've never been to your church, Dan. We could fix that at some point. But my hunch is you probably didn't have a ton of like super right wing Jesus is Republican kind of Christians at your church.

I would, I would assume that your church would probably be theologically Orthodox yet socially, politically, maybe center left of center or, or so, or is that, I mean, I know for, I know our staff and I would just say there's, there's a variety of political opinions of it out there. So, I mean, I don't know. I couldn't tell you in terms of the voting aspect of things, but I would say that didn't end up surfacing in a – because we respect all views if it's not contradicting Scripture. So, and I think that's the same thing. How should you vote? In our church, we don't talk about it.

We talk, here's the truths of Scripture, and let that determine how you see this playing out in various policies or whatever politically. But we don't ever talk about those things. We talk about the truths that then hopefully are training people to then understand what's in alignment with directions politically or not. Okay, that's helpful. As you look ahead, next two, three, four, five years, are you hopeful? Obviously you're hopeful, you're a Christian,

but do you feel like there's more serious challenges down the road in terms of discipleship in the church? And again, there's always going to be challenges, but are you like, man, we need to... Yeah, where do you think the church is going to be in five years? I think I'd say the biggest danger... I know I've said this about 10 times, but it's so important. I think the biggest danger churches believe are not being loving. A lot of churches are loving. Some aren't, I know.

Some are toxic, some are wicked. I understand that. But again, most aren't. And I don't think it's really, we love neighbors overall, I think, you know, pretty well. But what I don't think we're doing is an atheist can love their neighbor. An atheist can, you know, help the homeless and do. An atheist can be kind and patient and demonstrate even certain things of the spirit. Not the spirit,

not saying it's not the spirit, but just in general. And I just think the issue is going to be more like, do we really know what we believe and why? Because I think the waters of belief are pressing so hard that unless you have your convictions of what you believe and why, it'll be very easy to disbelieve or turn our Christian faith into something that historically it's not. believe and why, it'll be very easy to disbelieve or turn our Christian faith into something that historically it's not. I think that's our biggest challenge in the years to come. I think there's a lot of people in churches that have doctrinal statements that would be normal, decent doctrinal

statements, but if you then actually surveyed the people in the churches, it'd be very different from what the church actually believes. So that's kind of been my thematic um thing um you know so but i i have hope because i have hope because of things like the bible project right because there's a hunger i think to learn right there's a hunger to learn the goodness of god from genesis to revelation there's a hunger to learn if a Christian has been taught certain beliefs, even the difficult ones about morals and ethics that go maybe clashing with culture values, then there's a hunger to learn why. And so in that way, I think there's great hope in seeing the interest in this. There's a non-Christian guy that we buy, and our coffee shop buys our beans from this local coffee company. And he was walking in our hallway when I was meeting with

him once, and he saw a word on our wall that said theologians. And he was like, what's that? And I said, like, we want to be thoughtful in thinking what we believe. And he takes his hand and he whacks it. He's like, man, I hope more Christians are like that, too. So because I think that's respected then, you know, so that's kind of a hope. But I really do think we got to know what we believe or there will be a washing of many people that maybe are part of churches and they never maybe that maybe they're not even regenerated by the Holy Spirit. part of churches and they never, maybe they're not even regenerated by the Holy Spirit. We've taught many generations just to go along with Christian church, their church, their church involved, and they might even have, this is another criticism, they might even have the endorphins and the dopamine that are popping from work, musical worship experiences. But then after

that, um, what do they believe that, that I don't know the guy, so I can't say it, but there's a famous, uh, well-known guy that went deconstructed his faith publicly. And he was a music leader and all that. And he said something so fascinating. He's like, I was at a Coldplay concert. And then I realized I had the same emotions that I did when I'm leading worship. I'm like, yeah, of course. Like, why is that even a surprise? And I'm like, was he really not taught that? Like, you know, but I do, what a church is doing today, you know, his presence is now with us. When we got the, you know, why is it always when the lights are down and there's, you know, and there's, and the moments are emotional in the room. And that's not, now do you feel God's presence?

But why don't you, why don't you, don't you realize that God's presence is with you in the parking lot afterwards, you know, on your home? And I think we've, again, I think that's what we got to be counteracting because then people might have a church experience. And even I don't know, this is I'll say I'm talking fast. I need to make sure I'm not saying something bad. But like, how do you know you're even saved if you're basing most of your beliefs on the worship experience and the emotions that happen in a church? But you're not really believing what you believe after, because that only lasts temporary. And you're seeing a lot of drift happen because they're not thinking about what they believe. And maybe their faith has been more on the experience than their actual convictions of, I believe in Jesus, Savior, sin, atonement. I repent. I just gave a

whole message on repentance a week ago. And from that, I'm fallible. I goofed up. I'm going to have to repent every day, 50 times a day. But I understand what I believe and why. I just think that's missing very often in the culture of churches that we have set up today. That is what I'm most frightened about. Yeah, just to affirm, I mean, it's another source of deconstruction I've seen, you know,

kind of like what I said earlier about an overly conservative interpretation of Scripture being equated with Christianity, but then also like an emotional experience being equated with salvation so that when, you know, you have that early on in your journey and maybe those emotions aren't there later on, or maybe you go through a season where for whatever reason, you don't feel God's presence. And not to discount, obviously, the emotional, we're whole beings and emotions are part of that. And that can accompany an encounter with God. But if we equate that emotional experience with being genuinely saved then the natural byproduct is

when you don't have that anymore well must not be true must not be christianity anymore or you kind of like marriage like if you equate a healthy marriage with the falling in love feeling that your body chemically sustained for about a year and a two year and two and a half years with love and then when those go away like i guess i'm falling out of love. And that's leads to divorce. Absolutely. It's a both. It's both emotional and, I don't want to use the word intellectual, emotional and knowledge. It's both. The marriage example is perfect. There are times when it's super emotional. Other times it's, you don't feel the emotions as strongly, you know, but your love is not based on emotion. it's you don't feel the emotions as strongly you know but your love is not based on emotion right it's based on commitment and conviction and you're the promise that you made so i think that's

good you know because then there's churches that have just been so much just on the knowledge without the emotion like i had knowledge so it is it is both but i'm seeing a criticism from a lot of because i'm watching on tiktok a lot of former you know and they use the word evangelicals or ex-evangelicals um they're now criticizing the music and they're saying that was emotionally manipulative and that's why they had all the experience and it wasn't really an experience so i'm now seeing that being repeated saying from ex-evangelicals that the emotions were part of it. And one was even, I was just looking at one that was on a worship team, and they're deconstructing the whole thing. We would plan out the songs to have like the highs, the high emotions, and then the fist pounding, you know, when the drums come in at a certain time and build up.

Then we'd have times of quiet, And often we could then hear people crying. And so then it would have more people crying during the silent parts. And then, and now this woman was just saying, like, it was all really manipulating people, which it could be. And if we're not teaching, that's the powerful emotion, but then not intentional manipulation, but it, but it's both emotions and knowledge. And I just think the churches that have been too hardcore, you know, sin, that's not a threat word, you know, doctrine, doctrine, doctrine, doctrine only, with no love and compassion and thoughtfulness, you're losing them today. If it's all just surfacy, sort of that, we're losing them today. That's why it's got to be both.

Dan, thanks so much for your time, man. Really appreciate your ministry. And yeah, it was great getting to know you over the last hour and hearing your heart and many, yeah, blessings on your life and ministry there in Santa Cruz. That truly is a challenging context. And I think you're the right, obviously the right guy to do that. Yeah. And. So, yeah. And it's all over to like, you know, you can be in Nebraska and you got some of the same challenges as Santa Cruz now because of internet, social media. So a lot of it's, uh, you know, I think pockets in this, in America, we're always like, you know, the hot, you know, anti-Christian ones are, it's kind of like all over. And I know there's the generation before as they start dying out,

I think it'll accelerate and change even more in a generation ahead. So if you're in Nebraska right now, you're in it too. When you're in Idaho, I know Idaho has a lot of different pockets. Oh, yeah. Idaho, yeah. It defies the stereotype for sure. Yeah, right. All right, man.

Have a good day. Appreciate you. Thank you so much. It's great that I could talk to you for five hours. Take care.