Theology in the Raw - S9 Ep975: Psychedelics, Marijauna, and Being the Church from the Table: Debra Hirsch

Episode Date: May 26, 2022

I had no agenda going into this conversation, but it quickly delved into talking about psychedelics, marijauna, and how God uses some trippy things to draw people to himself. We then talk about a missional ecclesiology with the table at the center. Deb Hirsch is a speaker, church leader, and writer who has led churches in both Australia and Los Angeles. She is one of the founders of Forge Mission Training Network and is a member of the Forge America national team. She also serves as a board member for Missio Alliance and was part of the leadership team of Christian Associates, a church planting movement in Europe, North & South America. She is the co-author (with Alan Hirsch) of Untamed: Reactivating a Missional Form of Discipleship, and her book Redeeming Sex reflects her own journey and attempts to bring new conversations about sexuality into the context of the church. Deb has been involved in social work, community development and as a trained counselor has worked in the field of sexuality for over twenty-five years. –––––– PROMOS Save 10% on courses with Kairos Classroom using code TITR at kairosclassroom.com! –––––– Sign up with Faithful Counseling today to save 10% off of your first month at the link:  faithfulcounseling.com/titr or use code TITR at faithfulcounseling.com –––––– Save 30% at SeminaryNow.com by using code TITR –––––– Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out Dr. Sprinkle’s website prestonsprinkle.com Stay Up to Date with the Podcast Twitter | @RawTheology Instagram | @TheologyintheRaw If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review. www.theologyintheraw.com

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. If you'd like to support the show, you can do so through Patreon at patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw. Support the show for as little as five bucks a month to get access to premium content like monthly Q&A podcasts and blogs and other goodies. Would really appreciate your support, but if you can't support the show financially, it's totally awesome. It's a free podcast. You can support the show also by leaving a review either on your Apple app or on Spotify that really helps alert people to the show. Or you can share this episode if you enjoy it or other episodes that you have enjoyed or hated. You can share those episodes on your social media

platforms. And that really, again, does help get the word out on Theology in the Raw. My guest today is the one and only Deborah Hirsch. Deborah, Deb, I think she prefers Deb. Deb Hirsch is a speaker, church leader, and a writer. She's written a couple of books, Untamed, a reactivating and missional forum of discipleship, forum of discipleship, which she co-wrote with her husband, Alan Hirsch. And then her first book was Redeeming Sex, which is a fantastic book on sexuality where she kind of weaves in her own journey. Deb is a wonderful conversationalist, conversation partner. Her and her husband, Alan, have just done so much multifaceted work for the kingdom. And I was really excited to

talk to her. We talk about some interesting topics like marijuana, psychedelics, and her own journey and the church and all that fun stuff. So please welcome to the show for the first time, the one and only Deb Hirsch. All right. Hey, friends. I'm here with Deb Hirsch. Deb, this podcast is long over two. I've been wanting to have you on for many, many years, really. So thanks so much for carving out time to be on Theology in a Row. It's great to be here, finally. I was expecting black lipstick. I was just reading the account when you were in the bathroom somewhere

and putting on your black lipstick and you said, yeah. Oh, God. I'm a little bit old for black lipstick. In fact, I don't even wear lipstick anymore. I don't even wear makeup. But black is still my color. I still wear a lot of black clothing. So there you go.

Okay, yeah. I do too. I like black. Yeah, I love black. It's such a neutral, easy color. Offline, I said that you and your husband, Alan, are kind of like the Priscilla and Aquila of Christianity. You guys seem to be – every time I turn around, you're doing something different.

You're in a different city, speaking here, speaking there, writing this book, addressing that topic. So why don't we start? Well, let's just go all the way back. Just tell us a quick snapshot of your journey, where you grew up, how you met Jesus, and what you've been doing the last several decades. The last several decades. There's been a few in between.

Well, look, really, simply said, my story is – it's really a story I like to tell people if they're not aware of the concept of provenient grace, and it's a really powerful concept. And that is my story, really. It's a story of provenient grace. For those that don't know, if you're a Wesleyan, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. It's really a thing about, it's really like a preparatory grace. And John Wesley built so much of his missionary movement on this concept alone, that God is at work in all people.

It doesn't matter where they are, what's going on in their lives, God is already at work in them, preparing them. And by his Holy Spirit, wooing them, trying to catch their attention. And I love that. I love that because I think, you know, in the church we have a lot of odd scripting that takes place, that we have to kind of unscript ourselves and re-script really. And I think this is one of them because we often have that thought

that wherever we go, we bring God with us in our back pocket, you know, and when the time's right, when it's, you know, the right time, we hand him over with our proclamation and here's God here to answer all your questions. And I think preventing grace helps us understand that actually God is already at work. God is already there. We don't roll up to anybody and hand him over.

He's already at work there. And the job of a missionary really is to see where God is at work within the individual. And then help, you know, I mean, it's definitely my story. So, you know, my story was, my story was many years ago now. I was just one of those angst-ridden people that were dealing with all that kind of existential stuff that kind of bubbles away, I say in the pit of my belly because I feel things deeply

within my belly, and just trying to work out what life was all about. There was a bunch of us that hung around together and we'd kind of get stoned and look at the sky and, you know, get into our philosophising and, you know, what are we doing here and what does it mean? Is there any purpose, you know, grander purpose? Is there anything beyond us and all that kind of stuff? And so I was on that journey.

While I was on that journey at the uh while I was on that journey I was very very immersed in the LGBTQ community at that season of my life um and we had friends that were in a band and we used to go and hang around with them as well and um but you know probably too much drug taking was was uh happening in my life at that time I had a sense, I had a sense that I was getting close to my answer. I didn't know what that meant but I just had this thing going on in my, deep within thinking I'm getting close. And I remember my dear friend Jason sitting me down one day and he said to me, we were talking and I said to him, Jason, I think I'm getting close to the answer.

And he said, Debbie, I think you're taking too many drugs. Now, I may well have been. And I do have to pause there and say that I know this is not kind of orthodox and all the rest of it, but drugs certainly opened me up to the spiritual realm in a way that I wasn't prior to that. And God used my drug taking as he did with my husband as well. My husband also was very involved in taking drugs and seeking for answers to life and all the rest of it. So God certainly used that in my life to bring me to himself.

But, yeah, so I remember thinking I probably am taking too many drugs, but I had this weird sense that something was just beyond. And in the meantime, the parallel story here is in the meantime, a dear friend of ours, George, who happened also to be one of our drug dealers, we had heard, we'd lost contact with him. He was part of the band that we used to hang out with and we sort of weren't, you know, hanging around with him as much. And we had heard on the grapevine that George and his brother John had found God.

Now, we didn't know what that meant. We didn't know what God or how they found God. We just heard that they'd found God. Now, we didn't know what that meant. We didn't know what God or how they found God. We just heard that they found God. And I remember thinking, I'm really happy for them. They found what they'd been looking for. Never once did I think for a moment that what they had found was what I was feeling I was finding. Anyway, long story short, this is literally what they did.

So this is George's story and you see that in my book anyway. He has a local police come around to his house, knocks on his door one night to take him out to go to the local lock-up. He went there for 10 days, not for drug dealing, but for unpaid parking fines. They got him somehow, but they got him for 10 days. And on his way out of the door, he told us this later, he saw his mom's big Greek Orthodox Bible and he felt compelled to take it with him. So he popped this thing under his arm and and it must have weighed 10 pounds. I mean, it was a big Bible, and took it to read while he was in the cell. And he literally said what happened was he opened up the Scriptures,

started reading some of the Gospels, and the Holy Spirit fell on him right there in the prison cell. I mean, it was just one of those miracles where God just intervenes in a person's life and he came out of that prison a different guy, talked to his brother. His brother, you know, also came to know the Lord. And so they were Greek brothers. We used to call them the wild Greek brothers because they were pretty wild.

And so they decided that what they were going to do is going to write a list of all the people that they sold drugs to and all their friends and all the rest of it, and they were going to pray their way through this list. So they began to do that, and they would tick it off when people would come to know the Lord. So I was on that list, as was my sister and a bunch of others. And so they contacted us.

So this was our time. We didn't know, but they contacted us and said to meet if they wanted to catch up for lunch. So we said, okay, and we were keen to find out what was going on in their lives. Well, the night before we went for lunch with them, my sister and I had gone out to a gay club until 6 in the morning and we'd taken LSD trips.

And we left the club at 6 in the morning thinking, oh, could we get back, can we have a sleep before we go, you know, to meet the guys. And, you know, we get back to our apartment and, you know, we're starting to come down from this LSD and decide we're going to have a little sleep. And everything within us was like, oh, we're going to cancel, we're going to cancel.

But there was this other thing saying, no, we can't, we need to go. So I don't even remember if we, I don't think we got to sleep. We ended up driving because they were quite far away. ended up driving like we've got to go we've got to go and meet with them because I'll be so disappointed if we stop if we cancel anyway so we're driving down the road my sister is driving and she is literally seeing well not literally but in her mind literally seeing pink elephants bouncing across the road. And she's like, I can't drive these pink elephants. And I'm like, there's no elephants.

Keep your hand on the steering wheel. Anyway, we managed to get there. That in itself was a miracle. And we went out to this beautiful park area and I remember seeing George pulls out a Bible. I remember going to touch it, you know, and I pulled my hand back and he said to me, it's not going to bite you, Debbie. And I was like, okay.

And I thought, oh, so it's got something. I was thinking it's got something to do with the Bible, where they're at now. So anyway, for the rest of that lunch they began to share with us about the Lord. And we asked questions. You know, again, we were getting tired by this stage because we hadn't really slept and we're kind of coming down,

so it was all a bit trippy. But we went home that night, my sister and I, and I didn't know. The same thing happened with her, but I was in my bed and I remember saying, Jesus, if you are real, come into my life. Jesus, if you are real, come into my life. Now I said this probably a dozen times. I don't know if I was expecting to experience something. I'm not sure what I was thinking, but I just knew if this was true,

what they'd been telling us and this is what I wanted so um went to sleep woke up the next morning and I knew something was different I knew I found my answer I again was not sure what that all meant um but I immediately resonated with this this is it what I've been feeling for these last few weeks this this sense of drawing um this this is what it is and um that was the beginning really of my journey and my sister's journey we had just the next week we're moving into a big community house uh in in the downtown area of our city. And so God was at work.

I mean, the timing was just perfect because we moved in with a bunch of other people. And so we began to share with them and John and George would come over. And so this community started building around Jesus. Now, the interesting thing was we weren't going to a church. around Jesus. Now, the interesting thing was we weren't going to a church. We didn't have a church because George had become a believer in prison. So I say to people, we could have ended up being some weird cult,

I'm telling you now. But, again, we did not. So one night my sister and my cousin Mark, who was, Mark was a gay man. I talk about him in my book. In fact, my sister and Mark are the ones that I dedicated the book to. Mark and my sister went for a walk because we were sitting there thinking, you know, we probably should find a church. You know, I guess we're Christians. It means Christians go to church.

We should look for a church. So they went for a walk down one of the main streets just around from our house and they saw this big old church and it just had a sign Christian Chapel on it. And they saw a light on it the side so they went and knocked on the door at the side and the pastor, whose name was Pat, opened up the door and said, hello, and they said, oh, you're not Mormons, are you? He said, no, no, no, we're Christians. And he said, we're having a prayer meeting,

would you like to join us? And they were all a bit nervous. Oh, no, no, no, but, you know, are you meeting on Sunday? And he said, yes. And they said, we would love to come along and bring some of our friends. So they came back and by this time this is you know this is a few months in you know we had a bunch of people living in this house and the house at

this stage was I mean it was pretty chaotic and pretty crazy and when I look back I think it really was like almost a clash of the kingdoms going on within the house because there were some people that were like you know full- on following God and reading the Bible and other people were like really anti, you know, so there was kind of, you know, we'd all moved in together and this was going to be, you know, the party house of Melbourne, you know, in our minds. But yet some of us became believers and we were like, no, we're not sure.

We want to keep doing this and doing that. And so there's a little bit of a war going on within the walls of the house. And, you know, at any given day, you'd have Bible teaching or Bible reading going on in one room and drug dealing going on in another. So it was really quite a chaotic, you know, sitting. And anyway, so probably, I don't know, a dozen of us rolled into church on that Sunday. And we went up the stairs and went in and there's, so probably, I don't know, a dozen of us rolled into church on that Sunday. And we went up the stairs and went in and there's, you know, like a big aisle in the middle of the church.

And, I mean, it was just a beautiful old church. It had a big God is love sign and one of those big, giant kind of ancient organs. There was no other music but organ music going on in that church at that point. there was no other music but organ music going on in that church at that point and um as we walked down the aisle we were looking at people and we were keen you know we wanted to learn we were like filled with God's spirit and we wanted to learn everything we could so we wanted to you know we didn't think that you know we headed straight for the front pews so we're walking down the down the aisle and we're looking at all these people. And there was little old ladies with hats and gloves on their hands,

and men were dressed in suits. And we discovered that the youth group were in their 60s. So we didn't know it at the time, but we had walked into a fundamentalist church of Christ. It was quite incredible. And you guys, I'm pict picturing first of all how old are you at this stage i'm just picturing a bunch of kind of like jesus freak looking post hippie people coming into this church is that a good picture i have in my mind or

well not quite post hippie we were kind of more goth neuromantic oh you know with the punk punk flavor okay okay you know it kind of made an art of looking weird you know you know those seasons you go through when you're conforming and you're non-conformity anyway so we didn't we didn't look normal preston is the answer to that so these people were looking at us like wondering what planet has just invaded. So, you know, I had black hair that stood up and black lipstick that, you know, you've already mentioned. And, you know, I think I had my pajama top on and, you know, we used to tie rags to our body. I mean, we just didn't look normal. I just, you know, which just heightens the miracle of what happened in that church, to be honest with you, because it was quite remarkable. Anyway, that little fundamentalist church of Christ became our home.

Wow. And it was those people that discipled us and they did not, I like to say this to people, they had no clue what to do with us. Culturally we were from different worlds, but they knew how to love and they knew how to pray. And they prayed like crazy for us. And some of them, I remember a man named Alan Thomas who had those shiny Jesus eyes.

Him and his wife embraced us, took us home for lunch and opened up their big Schofield Bibles, you know, read to us from the scriptures and they took a risk on us. You know, again, they didn't really understand us but they knew God was at work. And the beautiful thing about it is Pat, Pat the pastor, he was an incredible model of grace, incredible model. He would come every, I think it was Wednesday mornings, to our home and sit there, open up his Bible and teach.

Whoever wanted to learn would sit around the Bible. Again, there'd be drug dealing going on in the front line. There'd be men in bed with men upstairs. I mean, it was chaotic. It was crazy. And Pat would come in his little suit and he had a grey comb over his glasses. There'd be men in bed with men upstairs. I mean, it was chaotic. It was crazy. And Pat would come in his little suit and he had a grey comb over his glasses and he would sit there. Like, I mean, it was just incredible.

And he just loved and he taught. But he would tell us years later that some of the older people struggle with us, you know, and there'd be, you know, at board meetings and that, they'd start complaining about us. You know, you've got to tell them they've got to dress better and, you know, they shouldn't be smoking outside the church and, you know, what's with all the different hair colours, you know, all that stuff that we get so caught up about, you know.

Yeah. And he said one night in one of the board meetings, Alan Thomas on With the Jesus Eyes, when one of the people were complaining, he said he pushed his chair and he stood up. He pushed his chair back and stood up and he said, no, not the lambs. Don't touch the lambs. And that's the type of protection we got from some of these people. that's the type of protection we got from some of these people. And then Pat told us when people would complain, he would say to them,

do you know what? And this is the miracle part of it. That Wednesday night prayer meeting that my sister and Mark, you know, knocked on the door when we found the church, that was set up for one sole reason, that they would pray that the Lord would bring young people into their church. And so Pat would say to the people that would complain about us, it's not my fault you weren't specific enough with God about the type of young people you wanted. We wanted some clean cut young people that didn't have black lipstick. They're the clean living people.

Give me some clean ones. I want to go back to something. I mean you mentioned meeting Jesus while in LSD. That's not a unique story, at least in my anecdote. I've talked to a lot of people. And in the broader culture today, there's a big conversation happening around spirituality and psychedelics. Yes. around spirituality and psychedelics. And a good friend of mine, Paul VanderKley, he does podcasts, YouTube, he's a pastor and everything.

And he's one of these, do you know the name Paul VanderKley? Probably, he's not that well known. I don't know. You probably wouldn't. I mean, he's got a decent size kind of YouTube following. A lot of the people that follow him are's got a decent size kind of YouTube following. A lot of the people that follow him are not Christians. They're kind of seekers. He loves to have just intellectual conversations about anything. Anybody's kind of welcome to come chat. And he's

built this kind of like really eclectic following. And he's got a really good eye for the future. Like, where's Christianity going? Where's culture going? Really sharp guy. And I sat down with him a month ago. No, I guess two or three months ago. And I said, hey, what's kind going? Where's culture going? Really sharp guy. And I sat down with him a month ago. No, I guess two or three months ago. And I said, hey, what's kind of the big thing that Christians need to start thinking about now? Like, what's something that we don't realize is going to be a huge topic? And he immediately, hands down, without hesitation, said Christianity and psychedelics. I'm like, really?

Is that like a – he's like, this is – in my circles, which is kind of the – like this is the question that people are asking. Anyway, I don't even know what my – well, I guess my question is – because the knee-jerk reaction is, you know, no, this is horrible. This is bad and everything. And that's my knee-jerk reaction. But I always want to say, well, let me – I want to think through something before I even have an opinion about it. And I just have never really thought through it. Do you have – like why does it seem that God does seem to use psychedelics to bring people to himself? Like what is that?

How are we supposed to process that? I think that's a really good question. And I have been keeping up with a little bit of some of that. And I don't know if this is the same guy, but, you know, one of the guys that used to be involved in XXX Church. Is that the same guy you're talking about? No, no, it's not. I know who he is.

I've just read an article. Yeah. Oh, I read an article recently about a guy who's a Christian guy who is, you know, not as much psychedelics but marijuana. Okay, yeah, yeah. Looking at marijuana use. I think it was, I don't even know, was it in Christianity today? It doesn't seem like it would be in Christianity today, but maybe.

I read an article, and I think there is a lot more conversation around it, and I think, look, we would be foolish to say that God does not use that. I can't even tell you how many of my friends have also been opened up spiritually through drug taking. You know, there's a whole other question of whether, you know, do Christians continue to use that? And I guess the article that I was reading from this guy was saying that it has enhanced his prayer life, that it's opened him up to God in a much bigger way than he could have ever understood. And I

think, you know, look, I just think we've, I think, of course, with everything that has to be cautioned, but I think there's also, there's been, you know, for years, a lot of negativity around, and I'm, again, psychedelics and marijuana are two different beasts in my mind. Okay, yeah. But I do think, you know, if you look back through different religions, there has always been some element of that. You know, even in the Jewish faith, in some of the more mystical areas of the Jewish faith, people were known to have, you know,

been using marijuana or something to enhance their spiritual encounter with God. So I think, you know, I just think we, you know, if you looked on the page of all the harm marijuana does and all the harm alcohol does, for instance. Right. I'm probably going to say alcohol does for instance right you know i'm probably gonna say alcohol does more harm this is marijuana tends to be more of a peace drug um and yet christians

drink marijuana drink alcohol so i i just think culturally you know there's like a nay saying no no and especially in Christian culture. You know, I mean, the church I was leading in Los Angeles, it was kind of birthed in some ways a very close association with the Burning Man community. You know, so we were around, there was a lot of people, you know, even people on my team that were, you know, using different drugs at times. Now, again, stepping into that context was kind of interesting for me because I was like, whoa, this is not the norm, you know.

Now, I'm not one to judge or, you know, make any judgments on anything like that. But I just think it's definitely starting to move. You know, I hear of believers that are, you know, using marijuana to enhance their prayer life and that. So I understand the other argument is, well, it'll open you up to everything else and all the rest of it. I don't know that that's always true. I don't like that argument. I'm not going to say there's not something there, but we don't reason like that through well like

you said alcohol or or um making a lot of money or i mean there's all kinds of stuff that in excess becomes really bad or could become addictive or could lead to this and we do it all the time i mean we we don't we kind of pick and choose where we want to use that argument yeah the the marijuana and i i just have not thought through that i might just i still rely on my knee jerk like no no, bad. Don't get drunk with wine. I'm sure that applies to being high too. But is marijuana kind of – is it the new kind of craft beer?

I mean 30 years ago, you were really edgy as kind of an outsider if like you had an elder meeting and you went to a pub or something, at least in the States. But now it's like, I remember when I moved up here to Boise, Idaho, where I'm at. Boise, Idaho is a very conservative city. The churches are very conservative. And I came up here eight years ago to try to start an extension campus of a Bible college. So I was meeting with pastors all the time. And I can't tell you the overwhelming majority wanted to meet over a beer, not a cup of coffee. I'm like, this is like, they're like Baptist

and not so much Methodist. But I mean, I was like, wow. So it's like totally accepted. Like it's not a big deal anymore. In 20 years or even 10 years, are we going to say the same thing about marijuana? This is what my friends who are pastoring on the coast, Oregon and California and East Coast, they're kind of like, yeah, this is something like we're trying to figure out, okay, half my elders use marijuana on some level.

It's just not that big of a deal. It's legal. I don't know. So it's a conversation we need to have, I think, right? Are people having the conversation? Oh, we definitely need to have it. And I think we definitely need to have it. Yeah, it is.

It's interesting that it's coming out at the moment. You know, it is being talked about a lot more. Again, I just, for me, we've got to take this down. You don't judge. You know, be wise about all things. You know, Paul says that. Don't be addicted to anything or, you know, that anything have mastery over you. Right.

I just think, look. Except for coffee. That's, coffee gets a. But, you know, and, you know, I have a cousin who there's no question that, you know, his psychosis was, you know, he's schizophrenic, you know, was induced, you know, through too much marijuana. So, you know, there's all of that kind of stuff. We've got to look at the whole big picture, I think, and be very careful.

But, yes, I passed it on, you know, in California it was, people were like, it's not such a big deal. It's not illegal, isn't it? That it's illegal that we don't do it, you know? So yeah, the church is changing in lots of ways, isn't it? Well, and even like, not just medicinal, but even people that say, yeah, I take a couple of gummies, you know, a couple of nights a week, helps me go to sleep.

How is that different? If there's no healthmies, you know, a couple of nights a week, helps me go to sleep. How is that different? If it's, if it's, if there's no health risk, in fact, if it's, if there's health benefits and I, again, I'm not, these are questions I know nothing about this conversation. Um, but how is that different than people taking a couple of Tylenol PMs, which happens a lot, which can become addictive or, or Vicodin or, you know, like, I, I don't know. Well, that's the argument, isn't it? Yeah. But you said it's marijuana is a lot different than psychedelics. I smoked some pot years ago, teen, like late teens, maybe never done psychedelics. So you, that you're,

you would say these are two kind of really different conversations. I mean, maybe the large umbrella is the same, but I mean, these are not. You can be almost for marijuana use and still be very against psychedelics, you would say. Well, I just think they did well, you know, from my experience. Yeah, psychedelics, I think, you know, and it looks people. I wasn't really into psychedelics you know it wasn't something i did all the time partly because i i felt a little bit out of control in them you know you you can enter into a whole other realm whereas you know i took a lot of uppers you know i felt more control but also marijuana was a much more chilled i don't know i definitely think they're different drugs

yeah i mean if i'm just trying to i like to always think through something from all angles like if someone says well no god seems to keep using uh psychedelics to draw people to himself on what grounds can we say um that's only to draw him to himself initially, not in an ongoing way? If he can use it initially, could he not use it ongoing? And I do like to make the distinction between this is a way God wants us to pursue him versus this is a bad human decision that I'm so sovereign and loving. Sure, I will, you know, God used Assyria to carry out his covenant promises

to punish Israel. It doesn't mean everything Assyria to carry out his covenant promises to punish Israel. It doesn't mean everything Assyria was doing was like sanitized or like, you know, but God's like, yeah, way to go. You know, so I don't know. It's an interesting conversation. I think we need to start. I don't have answers either, Preston. I don't know. I just know, you know, again, being in some of the ministries I've been involved in, I have seen God use that to bring people to himself.

There's no question. Whether then we then go on, like you said, and keep using that sort of stuff, that's the conversation that's being brought up at the moment. I don't have answers to any of that. I kind of want to see some pink elephants, though. Gosh. Oh, my word. elephants though people are gonna think i'm like i'm i am not if you listen to the podcast you know i'm not like trying to smuggle this in at all i'm just it's whenever there's a topic christians haven't really taken a time to really think through everything i i want to yeah stir up that kind of conversation well let's get back to your story. So, um, you, uh, I guess

one of the areas that I love that grew out of your story is, um, I mean, I guess this applies to you and Alan, just, just your, your view of church. Like, what does it mean to be the body of Christ? And, and, um, as I've kind of paid attention to kind of your ecclesiological reflection, just you guys seem to cultivate such a really rich, authentic sense of belonging. And it seems to, I don't know, like when you first became a Christian in this kind of house and in this community, can you talk us through that? Like if someone were to ask you like church, like what does it mean to be the church? And it was just like, all right, Deb, go. Lay out your ecclesiology when you think of church

and what it means to be the people of God. What does that look like to you? Well, I write about this actually in the book I wrote with Untamed with Al and also in Redeeming Sex, it's a community that's centred around Jesus and I think, you know, one of the things we talk about is, you know, so many of our churches are in what we call a bounded set model, you know, people that are in are in and people that are out are out and the lines are clearly, you know, drawn up, the insiders and the outsiders, and there are certain expectations of insiders.

And the job of the insiders is to go out and grab those outsiders and get them back in and get them all cleaned up, believing and behaving in right ways, and then they get to belong to us, you know. Whereas I think what we've, I guess because of our own lives of, you know, both of us were converted from non-Christian backgrounds. We didn't really.

My husband was from a Jewish family. So no kind of concept of the church and the way the church does things until you go off to seminary and then they train you of how you've got to do things and all the rest of it. But we very quickly get into this bounded set, you know, whereas I think our lives were lived in around a centred set, you know, Jesus at the centre and all have access. You don't have to be an insider to have access to Jesus. You know, we tie him up in stained glass buildings,

stained glass window buildings. So for us it's always been about, you know, we encountered Jesus in the strange places, you know, and he wants, you know, we've got to give people access to him. We don't, you know, bind him up and make him inaccessible. And I think as a church we do that. We're terrible at that that and I think for us belonging was you know very important you know if you have you you know if you believe the right

things and you behave in the right ways and you get to belong well we kind of reverse that you know it's come belong come hang out you know be live your life not behind the walls, you know, dig a well of Jesus, you know, and people are going to want that water to drink. You know, I drank from it. It gave me life. It changed my life incredibly. You know, coming to Jesus is just a wild ride, isn't it? It's just a it's a wild ride isn't it it's just a crazy thing and then we we too easily begin to

then domesticate him and keep him locked inside the church and so for us it's like no he's got to be he's got to be freed from the church and so so we do try to set up you know the churches that we've uh that we led in melbourne and the one that i was leading in los angeles was very much around a centeredred set approach. Jesus at the centre and, you know, we don't put walls, you know, and he's accessible for wherever because, you know, again, if you're thinking back to provenient grace, if God is at work, you know, I mean, our job, our overarching biblical mandate really is to point people to Jesus, help them get closer to the centre, the centre of all reality.

That's our job, is it not? And so I think for us a lot of frustration has been in the way churches structure themselves. We are really good at making non-essentials essential you know so i think that's that's always a pet peeve of mine you know you're missing the big picture here you're getting all caught up in the semantics and this and that and so i don't know preston i mean we we probably have lived a lot of our life a little bit more on the edge, you know, of the church world, even though we're right in the midst of the church world, if that makes sense.

Yeah. You know, and certainly my husband felt, you know, strongly, strongly called to the church and to serve the church. And, you know, so we've been at the centre but also at the edges, you know, and that's the missionary heart, I think. And when you have a missionary heart, you want the lost to be able to meet Jesus. And when you're kind of in the middle of the church,

you realise how sometimes, and I say this kind of in a sense of deep sadness, but how far we are from doing that. You know, I mean, in all my traveling around, I mean, it has staggered me how many Christians don't even know a non-Christian. You know, it's like they don't even know their neighbors. And it's like they've lost the Great Commission. They've lost the passion to share the love that they've got, you know, and that's just

sad. And then we make it all about rules and regulations rather than this kind of dynamic relationship with the person of Jesus. And I think, yeah, we move into the non-essentials and forget the essentials and we just lose something. We lose something tangible about the kingdom and the life of the kingdom and, you know, it's there. I want to live in that, don't you?

I mean, that's where it's at. And I just think, I think, I say Christians spend too much time in church and with other Christians. You know, we've got to get out there. You know, I mean, we're just, you know, right back in New York City and I'm walking around overwhelmed with the lostness of this place, you know, and everyone's rushing, no one's looking at each other. It's just chaotic.

It's loud. You can't hear anything. And you just, the lostness, you know, and I mean, there are some wonderful churches here wanting to reach this culture, you know, but I just, I think we forget about it. We've got to get out a little bit more, you know, and let the pain of the world kind of get into us. And that propels us to kind of not want to just play church

but to be the church, you know. And I think, I don't know, I just think we've lost some of our original fire sometimes. We've become domesticated and I don't know. I just think we've lost some of our original fire sometimes. We've become domesticated and I don't know. I'm raving. No, it's so good. And this is another area I feel like I've been just kind of thinking out loud through. I mean, I personally resonate so much with that kind of vision.

That's just more, I don't know, like I just, even if I wasn't a Christian, like that kind of like just messy gathering, just focus on belonging, focus on relationships. And obviously as a Christian, keep Jesus at the center of that. But I also, you know, work with a lot of churches that have, you know, they do have structures and policies. And the biggest question I get is, so real quick, I want to come back before I ask my question. So, yeah, a lot of churches believe, behave, belong. And that's the order of things, right? And you say you flipped it. So you would say belong, believe, behave, something like that.

I mean, again, even wording like that just feels mechanical. But belonging is. It does. Okay. I would say belonging and belonging, when people begin to belong to you, you know, when you open your arms and you lead with embrace, you know, I mean, everyone wants to be known and wants to be loved, right? So belonging, don't be fearful of bringing non you know, non-believers into your family and into your homes, you know, and that's another thing. Our homes are structured around, you know, constructs of, you know,

nuclear family, you know. We're not living a biblical family either, you know, but our home should be the most place of welcome, you know, our table. You know, often used to say who we have around our table says a lot about the Jesus we follow, you know, and so I think the tables are sacred places and, you know, help people to belong and then they begin to, like, gosh, they do, they begin to believe in the same things you believe in, you know, they're being drawn into something.

And then instead of behave, and somebody said this to me in their church, they took the belonging, believing, and then becoming. Yeah, that's better than behaving. And I thought that's really good. That's a lot. That's really good because we're so scripted on the behaviors. We like neat and tidy people, don't we?

So here's my question is, and I'm talking more specifically like a church context that is following a more belonging first model. Are there any discipleship expectations placed on somebody who says, I'm not just a guest at your table. I want to be part of your family. Because for us, I'm going to retweet that phrase you just said. I'll give you credit because that's a brilliant phrase. Who you have around your table says a lot about the Jesus you follow. I think that's brilliant. But if, so if somebody comes as a guest in my house, they're going to get served like crazy and there's no requirements. I mean, you have to leave your psychedelics at the door. They can bring them inside.

Just don't smoke them in my house. Okay. But I'm not going to say, no, you need to quit doing drugs before you come to the table. It's like, no, you don't, I'm not going to, but if they said, Hey, I want to stay, I want to be a part of your family. Now they're moving from guests to family. I'm like, okay, but our family does have sort of, and I let's, let's,

let's ditch the language of rules regularly. We do have fam, a family identity where we are pursuing a certain kind of becoming because we want to become like the Jesus we're. And that does end up coming around to there are certain behavioral expectations. I hate to even say it like that, but like, yeah, you got to leave your racism at the door.

I mean, I'll have a racist at my table any day of the week, but you start telling racist jokes. And if you want to be long to the family, we got to weed that out, dude. Call to rule, call to regulate. So is that a weird tension? How do you navigate that? Yeah.

Oh, sure. In a church context, so just thinking of Tribe, the church that I was leading in Los Angeles. like Tribe, the church that I was leading in Los Angeles. So we would say, you know, come and belong, but we would talk about people in like, so, you know, we're governed by the Great Commission, right? Go, therefore, and make disciples, okay? Now we've in many ways turned that into an evangelistic text, right? But it's actually a discipleship text.

That's a conversation. But if we just look at we're here to make disciples of Jesus. So we develop two categories, pre-conversion discipleship and then post-conversion discipleship. Okay. So in the pre-conversion discipleship, we talk about something that, so one of our things that we used to talk about as missionaries, one of the first paradigms that needs to shift is that we don't see people

first and foremost as sinners in need of redemption. Yes, of course they're that. We know that. But that's the church scripting. Look at everybody. They're sinners and we need to kind of get them out of their behavior. Again, it gets behavioral focused again right we would say actually the more fundamental truth is that people are creating the image of god genesis one comes before genesis three and let me tell you when you when you begin to script people and help them to see the truth of that it changes everything

in the way you relate to those that you might deem sinners all of a sudden it's like you know because if you if they're sinners first and in need of redemption you kind of you focus on their behavior and what they're doing wrong okay but if they're people made in the image of god so your behavior goes from one i go i want to keep a little bit of distance from you because you might be doing things that offend me or i'm not comfortable with all of a sudden it's like i take a step into a relationship because this person from you because you might be doing things that offend me or I'm not comfortable with. All of a sudden it's like I take a step into a relationship because this person somehow in some way images my God. So I want to try and discover that.

So I become more curious about that person. So we're teaching them that. So pre-conversion discipleship looks like cultivating the Imago Dei in somebody, not focusing on their sins and, you know, wagging the finger and clucking the tongue, you know, because we're good moralists here and we're good moral people and you've got to, you know. It's about, wow, you know, C.S. Lewis talks about, you know,

your neighbour could be the holiest person that presents, you know, the holiest thing there. You know, see peopleS. Lewis talks about, you know, your neighbour could be the holiest person that presents, you know, the holiest thing there. You know, see people in a different way. It's much easier then to help them to belong. So our pre-conversion discipleship is cultivating and calling forth the Imago Dei in people, restoring their dignity if it's been damaged and broken, just loving on them, calling forth the good, not picking out the bad all the time. And this is why we've got such a bad image in the world. This is one of the terrible things we do all the time is we pluck our tongues and point our fingers and make people feel horrible and bad.

You know, you're going to hell because you're a dirty sinner, you know, rather than you are creating the image of an incredible God. You know, yes, you're lost and all the rest of it, but that comes secondary. You know, so pre-conversion discipleship is about bringing out the best in people and loving on them and calling that forth, the image of God. And then when they've, you know, crossed the line, we don't even like to say crossed the line because for me, my conversion was very evident. I was lost and then I was found. But for a lot of people it's a journey.

Yeah. It's a journey towards the centre. You know, they're wandering towards the centre. So that can be, you know, a long journey of having somebody alongside you and belonging and all the rest. But then when they name the name of Jesus and we know this is, they want to be part of the family now. They don't want to just hang around at the table just like you say.

They want to be part of the family. Well, then we talk about discipleship as in the Imago Christi. Now it's time to be conformed to the image of Christ. Now that's a much more intentional discipleship. And that's where, you know, that's where accountability comes into play. That's where we are calling each other to look more and more and more and more and more like Jesus. And that has requirements, does it not?

Yeah. But, again, it's the Holy Spirit's job, you's job to sanctify people, but we guide them and we teach them the truth. So that's much more intentional discipleship. Does that make sense? Yeah, that absolutely does. And I think that the wording really does matter. Like if we talk Imago Christi I love that or you can even use that creational language like we want

we want image of God bearers to live a flourishing life in line with how the creator has designed us to live which might include suffering and hardship and self denial but if you word it like that it just puts a different slant on things. You could say rules and regulations, but that just seems so –

when you say rules and regulations, do this, don't do that, it just becomes morality divorced from creation and resurrection. And it just kind of loses touch with the beautiful biblical story that, yes, there are rules and regulations, but I think we've tried to promote that in a disconnected, moralistic way. So the rule might be the same, don't sleep with your neighbor's wife is don't sleep with your neighbor's wife. But when you connect that to a broader vision of, because your creator designed the world that that will not lead to your own happiness, it will lead to destruction, will not lead to your own happiness.

It will lead to destruction. It will lead to chaos. And we're a community that's pursuing not chaos. We're pursuing – I don't know. And I don't think it's just semantics. I do think it's just how we envision what discipleship even is. So in – yeah, in a, cause you've pastored before, what is, say you're at a church and you're leading a church of like a thousand people, does it end up coming kind of

full circle to a membership policy? And here's this document and you have to sign, like, how do you, cause this is where I love the grassroots messiness of it but you know i've been a part of small churches big churches house churches whatever and and when you get bigger and you get organized just that rubber band effect you start snapping back into kind of like all right we're back to square one again with all these policies and documents and is that just inevitable or is there a way to go about a more authentic form where you don't have to be so scripted? Well, of course, it's easier in smaller, more missional community. And, you know, I mean, all the thing of microchurch is, you know, the new word for that at the moment. But I think there are ways.

I mean, in some ways, it is inevitable that, you know, you have a bounded, you know, we used to talk about our leadership, our core leadership team as, you know, guardians of the well. You know, we want people to drink from the well. But, you know, so we'd have like in a sense a bounded set at the middle guarding the well and then we'd have our covenant community which was a broader, they were the people, the Imago Christi people. And then beyond that is, you know, people that are drawn, you know,

God is drawing and, you know, we're trying to cultivate Imago Dei and all that kind of stuff. So I think the bigger the church is, yeah, it's clumsy, you know, and structures do end up kind of coming in there. And I think in some ways it's unavoidable. But I think if we're always out on the mission field, you know, and structures do end up kind of coming in there. And I think in some ways it's unavoidable. But I think if we're always out on the mission field, you know, we're bringing them back into churches, if you like. Well, we're actually, you know, from more going out and planting churches

that are out there that are small and a little bit more, you know, agile and adaptable and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, there's many ways of doing it i don't want to you know uh say big church is not right or you know small church is the only way to go because i think you know i think there's both and they can be good do you do you recommend i appreciate that you know you don't yeah there's not one size fits all kind of size of the church or whatever but do you prefer or even recommend smaller communities of churches? Like if a church kept growing and growing, would you say, man, reproduce, go plant another church, don't just keep adding services?

For sure. Yeah. I think the bigger the structure, the more complications. I mean, at the moment, we're seeing a lot of some of the lack of accountability and, you know, personality-driven kind of churches in big context. I think God's saying to us, hey, work on your structures a little bit better here because you're setting people up for, you know, there are problems with the structures as they are. So I think we've always been more smaller church people ourselves.

Our communities have been smaller and, again, more mission-based, you know, they are so i think we've always been more smaller church people ourselves our communities have been smaller um and again more mission based you know so there's there's there's not a big distance between what's going on out here in the mission field and what's going on here you know there kind of is a lot of flow between rather than you know mission stays out in the mission field then you go to church when it's all you're all up. You know, there's a lot more kind of blending and merging. And it is messy. Can you describe that in concrete terms? Like what does that look like?

Can you give us an example of what that looks like? Rather than having a compartmentalized, here's our church, here's mission, but like blurring the two more. Like what does that look like on Tuesday afternoon? Well, yeah. Well, I think it's people on life together, you know, so it's a, there's a vital community living that's not just happening on a Sunday. The Sunday should be the gathering of what we've been doing and the stories that we tell of mission through the week and all the rest of it. Whereas that's not what the church usually is on a Sunday.

It's God's people coming, are, and, you know, we should, I don't know, I don't want to say go on too much about that. But I think, you know, when we just set up a church where people are just attending and it's not participation-based, it's spectator-based, I think that's a huge problem. You know, we're very much priesthood of all believers. In fact, we ordained our church in Melbourne. We stood them all up and put those silly little white dog collars on each of them and ordained them all, you know.

Really? We seriously did. You put a collar on everybody? We put out white cardboard and got little sticky things and put them all around their neck and stood them up and ordained them all. You have to. It's a visual. It's important. And it meant something for people. And they realized it's not just me and Alan, our team that are those called to be in ministry. We're all in ministry. Some of us might be set apart from more actively involved in the church, you know,

in ways that we are and you are, but everybody's on mission, no matter what their context is, you know? So that is hard. We don't do that very often. Well, it's hard. It is hard to do in a bigger church, right? Or have you seen a big church do that well? And if so, what is, what are they doing differently? Cause I, and the default knee jerk reaction is, well, we have a good small group, you know, program, whatever. And I think that can be great or or it cannot i don't know like just adding small groups does that solve the problem

that the big church has with doing what you're well it depends depends what the small groups are if they're just for bible study i mean again i would say have a lot of small missional groups so they actually have some sort of outward focus. I mean, it's not bad to sit around and study the Bible, and we should have them as well. But I think everybody, you know, I think the underground in Tampa, I think, is a good example. Oh, yeah.

You know, the church, the gathered church is actually all made up of all these missional groups. You don't just go to church. You're actually part of a missional group, and then you go to kind of all these missional groups. You don't just go to church. You're actually part of a missional group and then you go to kind of all come together. So you're gathering the group together that are on mission through the week, you know, all the various groups, and they're a great community.

So I think we need more like that, you know, structuring around that type of thing. Yeah, if you start with mission you'll end up with community but if you start with just worrying about the community you know you might not ever get around the mission you know so i think it's it's the mission that's got to go yeah yeah i forgot yeah somebody told me about the underground and there's um yeah there's these kind of movements like this kind of all over the place i keep hearing about the underground you know francis chan's got his thing in san francisco that's similar to that um where the core dna of the church yeah what's his last name

sanders brian sanders there's another guy leading it at the moment i can't think of his name off the top of my head but um but certainly brian brian's back in town now. So he's, he'd be great. You would love him. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Quite remarkable. Yeah. So I would love to hear the pros and, cause I've seen people try to do stuff like that and, and there's, yeah, there's pros and cons that come up. Um, uh, I was on staff at um where francis chan was a pastor when he um we overlapped by a year his oh my word is that the cat what was i don't i don't know but i i know it's probably not possible to like pause right now is it because my battery is just about to drop out well uh no no, that's fine. But I've actually taken up to an hour and I have another podcast here,

so we can just wrap it up. You better go. Yeah, yeah. You're about to die. I just realized I haven't got the plug plugged in and it's not here. We didn't even get into your book, so I do want to give a shout out. I'm sure I'll mention it in the intro, but Redeeming Sex, Naked Conversations About Sexuality and Spirituality is a fantastic book. And yeah, would highly encourage people to check that out. But Deb, thanks so much for being on the show. I could talk to you for hours. But yeah, thanks for giving me at least one of those hours of your time. Great to see you. God bless. God bless.