Theology in the Raw - S9 Ep980: Surviving Sexual Abuse in the SBC: Tiffany Thigpen

Episode Date: June 13, 2022

Tiffany is a survivor and an advocate for other survivors of sexual abuse. She’s been an outspoken and courageous voice in pushing for change in how the Southern Baptist Convention has handled sexual abuse allegations. –––––– PROMOS Save 10% on courses with Kairos Classroom using code TITR at kairosclassroom.com! –––––– Sign up with Faithful Counseling today to save 10% off of your first month at the link:  faithfulcounseling.com/titr or use code TITR at faithfulcounseling.com –––––– Save 30% at SeminaryNow.com by using code TITR –––––– Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out Dr. Sprinkle’s website prestonsprinkle.com Stay Up to Date with the Podcast Twitter | @RawTheology Instagram | @TheologyintheRaw If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review. www.theologyintheraw.com

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. My guest today is Tiffany Thigpen. Tiffany is a survivor of sexual abuse and a survivor advocate of others who have been a victim of sexual abuse. This episode is sort of part two in the conversation on the recent report that was released by the Southern Baptist Church on the issue of sexual abuse and sexual abuse cover-ups. My previous guest would have been last Thursday, was J.D. Greer, to speak from a leadership pastoral perspective. And so I wanted to have a perspective from a survivor, somebody who has been a victim of abuse, to talk about this report that was released. So this conversation was really powerful. It's very moving. And again, I'm just so thankful for Tiffany's courage, both to be very outspoken on this issue.

She's been outspoken for many years and also for coming on the podcast and talking about it yet again. So please welcome to the show for the first time, Tiffany Thigpen. All right. Hey, friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I'm here with Tiffany, Big Pen Tiffany. Thank you so much for being willing to come on Theology in the Raw and talk about this obviously very delicate and sensitive topic. So yeah, thank you so much. Thank you. And I guess I'll tell you up front, Tiffany, and just so other people can hear it too. I'm actually really nervous about this conversation because I'm really nervous that I'm going to say something stupid or ask a question that could be

maybe, again, unintentionally offensive or whatever. So please if i say anything even use a wrong term or ask a question that's not a good question just please let me know please let me know like i um i'm not uh you know i'm i'm i enter into you know various spaces in the christian world this is one where i'm i'm really new to the conversation. I was really, I mean, I didn't, I kind of knew about the Southern Baptist thing from a distance just more recently. I'm not part of the Southern Baptist denomination. I don't even have too many close friends that are. So for me, it really does seem removed.

And yet this isn't just a Southern Baptist issue. It's a church issue. So I think I just, I want to get my heart and mind around what's going on. So anyway, let's start with your story. Tiffany, would you want to tell us who you are and why this topic is so important to you? Yes. So it is a church problem.

It's not just relegated to Southern Baptist for sure. So I was raised Southern Baptist. I was raised in a Southern Baptist church family and a Southern Baptist church home by faith. So my parents were together and married and saved at a young age. I moved to Jacksonville, Florida and had me and joined First Baptist Church of Jacksonville. So from infancy, I grew up there. So all I've ever really known is the Southern Baptist world. And that world is pretty insulated. The Catholic Church is kind of, and has been in my, in my raising, was seen as kind of, not true followers of Christ, and that the Southern Baptist kind of had the real faith and message. So I say that because it was interesting post-abuse when you continually

heard about the Catholic abuse problem. Myself, I had watched and paid attention and listened and learned and knew other survivors and heard other stories and realized that I had a really hard time getting my story heard, getting anyone to act in my situation. And if I couldn't get people to listen, based on the fact that the two people that my abuse was directly reported to, and that were charged with handling it, had covered it up, they were the two biggest leaders, two out of three of the biggest leaders of the Southern Baptist Convention at that time period, at time of reporting. They kind of were the voice of the SBC at that time period, which was in 1991. So if they wouldn't listen and act when they had the ability, they were, one was a sitting president, one had just been the president of the convention. They definitely were very much revered, but they definitely also had a huge voice because both of them were part of the conservative resurgence, which was kind that anyone just calling in to the Southern Baptist Convention and reporting abuse for lesser known churches or lesser known influential pastors, and I knew that there were cover-ups at that level, I also knew it went all the way to the top.

all the way to the top. So originally when I came public, so I went forward and reported my abuse in 1991, but I didn't come public with it until 2007. I was a young mother myself and things look very different when you become a parent. And I kept thinking, if no one stops an abuser, And I kept thinking, if no one stops an abuser, then they also have access potentially to my children. So it made my own church world feel unsafe because I didn't know who was around us and who had access to my children and whom to trust. I had not allowed it to become too big a part of my life and my thinking. I wasn't untrustworthy as a whole, but I certainly knew the risks. So when I found out on the news that my abuser had been arrested for abusing two young girls, 14 and 15, and at the time, all we knew with the charges was for sexting these teenage girls, but it developed further as the story came forward and the girls began to really tell their story. They were both molested and abused at the church that they were attending,

that their parents took them to this pastor for counseling and for, on separate incidences. And he had taken that opportunity to show his predatory status, which is something I already knew about him and had known for a very, very long time. When I saw the news report that he had been arrested, I thought, you know what, it is time to speak up and to really expose this problem and expose the fact that when we do not choose to do the right things, when we do not choose to involve authorities with a predator, they get emboldened and they continue to abuse. They don't stop on their own. Predators don't have much of a conscience. So I came forward publicly and then the real tragedies began. So the secondary abuse of being pushed around, being intimidated and bullied, of being vilified in so many ways. I was the enemy of the church, which is what a lot of survivors can attest to and feel.

I was not alone in this. I had Krista Brown, who is a well-known SBC abuse survivor. She had already come out and told her story. She had written a book. She had gone to, I believe, 14 different leaders at that time reporting and trying to get help. Wade Burleson, who took motions to the floor of the SBC convention that same year in 2008 was when he took it trying to get the database established after hearing our voices and our cries for help and realizing that there was indeed a problem we had Dave Pittman a well-known abuse survivor he was abused by his youth pastor Krista also by her youth pastor we had voices but our voices were being silenced. And we weren't easily silenced, though. We didn't go down without a fight. So we continued to speak to it and continued to stand against leaders and continued to have the conversations.

I continued to report what God requires of the church and tried to use the very teachings that I was raised with as a sounding board and also a call and cry for turning back to doing the things that God requires. Yeah. And it's been two decades. We are just now getting to this report. Tiffany, what, what was your, when you said you guys were speaking out and trying to get changed, you know, what was, what were you, what were you asking for? Like a better screening of people,

pastors before they get put in leadership. So you don't have predators behind a pulpit. Was it a justice done toward the abuser, all of the above? What was the content of what you were trying to achieve back in 2007? Definitely all of the above. Very, very common sense asks. We were wanting there to be better vetting of who is ordained as ministers, who is allowed to come in as a youth pastor and work with youth, who's allowed in our children's ministries, who is allowed to be behind your pulpit influencing your church. And if they are willing to cover up for an abuser, then they're not indeed a man called by God because God has principles of the calling. because God has principles of the calling. And definitely wanting to advocate the fact that until an abuser is arrested and then a successful trial for charges, that simply doing a background check doesn't stop abuse from happening because many, many times it takes years before someone is actually charged, if ever. Really?

Golly. So you said 1991 is when you first came public. I'm curious, how old are you? Are you like a teenager at this time? Yeah, I was a senior in high school. I was actually, the summer of my junior year of high school, I was 17 when I met my predator. And he came through our church as a, he was an evangelist and he was invited to travel with our youth group to do the revivals that we were traveling and doing in churches. That's how I met him. And then it took quite a bit of time before he actually, before I realized what his motivations were.

I thought he was a mentor in my life. And so during my senior year of high school, he started saying, you know, I see something special in you. And I feel like God has a plan for your life and he wants to use you. And I would like for you to come on staff at my church once you graduate high school. Which at that time period, and again, here's my own pastor as an influential leader in the SBC, and I'm thinking, oh my goodness, wow, this is such an honor. And so I allowed his mentorship in my life and thought that really, I was headed for ministry to some degree. I didn't know what that looked like,

some degree. I didn't know what that looked like. But he was using that just to gain trust. He was using that to work a relationship with my parents to gain their trust so that they would allow more and more access to me because they trusted him. And he was also finding out things about me that, you know, it's the classic grooming stage of learning about your prey. Really, that's what predators do. of learning about your prey. Really, that's what predators do. They learn about their prey so that they can find ways to manipulate and abuse. So by the time he actually acted, and I'm really, really thankful for the way that it played out because I was about to graduate high school. And the plan was as soon as I graduated, I was actually going to be moving to Texas, which is where his church was and where he lived. So I was going to leave Florida.

At this point, I was not even going to college because now I'm going on staff at this church. So I kind of threw away all of my plans for my life, what I saw as my life to answer this call from God. And I was going to move to Texas where he would have had full access to me. And he had promised my parents he would take care of me. So that was about to be the transfer. But someone that was actually a part of his church that I had gotten to know started feeling very uneasy and saw some red flags. And he confronted my predator, Gillyard, is his name, Daryl Gillyard. He confronted him and said, there is something not right here. And I don't like the way you look at her.

I don't like the way you interact or talk with her and confronted him. And it was that night that he attacked me and attempted to rape me. So I think that he thought it's now or never. And I saw evil in his eyes. I saw pure evil. He changed completely. And that's why I can stand on the predator term. I mean, he is predatory.

So I guess 1991 is when that happened. I mean, you've already touched on it, but I have got three teenage daughters. And I've been talking to them a lot more, especially more recently about this. And we've, my wife and I have been really open with helping them understand if you ever feel the slightest bit uncomfortable for whatever reason, you do not have to stay in any situation. And what would you say to my daughters? Like, what is kind of typical predatorial behavior? You mentioned building trust and building trust with the parents. That's something that I've kind of told them.

I would love to hear it from you. I mean, you're an expert in this. So, I mean, is that a very common thing? Like, if you see somebody that's kind of making you uncomfortable and they're working really hard to build trust, is that a common red flag? And what are some other red flags that you would alert other people to watch out for? It is a very, very common red flag. And while I'm thinking about it, I'll say this. Jimmy Hinton is an advocate that speaks a lot to church abuse. And not only does he speak to it, and he is

very willing to come to churches and educate and talk about it, but his own father was a pastor who was a predator. So he also has a blog. His name is Jimmy Hinton, and you can go to jimmyhinton.org, I believe is his call sign, and find his videos and his blog. And he and his mother are trying to educate people as to what it looks like and how easily predators fool people within church environments. Jimmy has done extensive interviews with his father who's in prison. His own sister was an abuse survivor of their father, but many, many children within their church and their neighborhood. And this was a well-loved, well-respected man of God. And during Jimmy's interviews with him, he talks about how easy it is to touch children

inappropriately with their parents standing right there, to take advantage of situations, to offer help to a family where he sees an opportunity where he could maybe get the child alone. He goes through in detail, and Jimmy's written a book about it as well, trying to educate how easy it is in church environments to abuse. And the reason that is, is we offer really cheap grace. One, we don't hold people to account. We forgive as a mantra, but it's really convoluted because the things that we are unforgiving about in the world, we quickly overlook right in our own church environments. So youth pastors, children's ministers, bus drivers for church ministry, people that sign up to do bus ministry, and you think,

gosh, they're giving up all of this time and allowing this driving around of your children to get them to activities or to youth functions. And sometimes those have turned out to be predators. And I know many survivors of those situations. Anything in which you just have a little check mark about, I encourage as parents, if you have just the slightest reservation, pay attention to it. God gave us gut instincts. We have Holy Spirit in us.

And we also just naturally react to predatory behavior. And way too often, we explain it away. We look at their character as a whole, how other people see them. And that's what I did with my abuser. As the red flags began, I kept thinking there is no way that he meant it that way. There's no way that he sees me any differently than what he says he sees me as, even though his actions weren't lining up with that. I had plenty of red flag moments that became crystal clear looking backwards, hindsight 2020.

But in the moments, I explained it away because we are taught, especially as children in church environments, you are taught to respect your elders. You are taught not to question authority. You are taught to believe what they say and to respect and revere them. And those are weapons used against us. What were some of the other red flags now looking back? The constant need to speak to me. That was something that in the moment and in the situation, there was always some important thing that he needed to tell me about or some information that he needed to share with me. And so he would call my home. We didn't have cell phones and things at that time. He would call my home and talk to my mom for a couple of minutes and say that he needed to speak to me and she'd bring the phone right to me and a long phone conversation would develop. Totally inappropriate for a pastor. Yes. At the time, you overlook it because of who he is and because everybody loves him and you think,

you know, he is taking this time with you. I must be special. And they use that and turn that on you so that you don't see the abuse coming. By the time the red flag started popping up, I would actually push back. And I would say, I can't believe you just said that to me or something along those lines. And then he would always come back and turn it on me and gaslight me and say, oh, I can't believe you thought I meant that. I didn't mean that at all. That must be you and your dirty mind, those kinds of things. So the gaslighting gets you so confused that you no longer trust your own gut or your own

memory or your own feelings about things that are being said because they set it up and pull the legs out from under you so many times that you begin to question your own reality. Golly. So typically, a predator is going to have the persona of being a respectable person, clean, pure, and everything. Because you walk around society and there's some people are like, Oh my gosh, that this person just says really creepy just by looking at it or whatever. They're just giving off weird vibes. It's almost the opposite with this. It seems like there was somebody at, um, our church does a lot of ministry and there's, you know,

we have homeless people in and out and it's just, it's a, it's a kind of a beehive of stuff. So you get all kinds of people hanging out at church. I remember, I think it was a couple of weeks ago, my wife was dropping our kids off and there's somebody kind of lingering around and just, just radiated concern, you know? Um, but I, I wondered, I'm like, yeah, how, how much, and yeah, and maybe, you know, obviously don't, you know, if you have any kind of red flag, you know, don't, don't, don't lower it, but pursue it. But I'm hearing you saying it's almost the person that doesn't give off those vibes at the beginning, at least.

They have this kind of really magnetic personality and have a trustworthy persona. Would that be accurate in terms of most predators in the church? Absolutely. They craft their image. They are very intentional about making sure that they are respected. Like you said, they have a charismatic personality most of the time. Okay. It is something that is so,

it's such an affront when something goes south that, as you've seen, probably these stories play out over and over. When something begins to go south, no one believes it. Yeah. You will watch the entire church react. And even sometimes a community, there is no way that he is capable of these things. You know, they are the nicest person. He gives so much time. Then they begin to go on this offense of them and defense of them.

And then the abused is like myself. You're still reeling yourself. You can't believe that this is where this is led. And you are questioning why you didn't stop things sooner or you begin the movie reel of all the moments that you should have gotten away from him. So you're going through those cycles yourself. And in that same instance, the entire church community is rallying against you because they think it's false, because there's no way, because they've crafted an image of themselves that makes it seem so impossible. That is part of the game for them, for these predators. And what better place to set up that kind of image and to do the stage show is what I feel like it is

for others than in church environments, in sporting activities, in schools, any place, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, those kinds of things, anything where parents are naturally driven to look away because these are people that work with your children and love your children and have given all of this time and volunteering and just, it's so abnormal to think about somebody in that light. And, and so it becomes a very, very nice hedge for them to hide behind. So the church is almost like a breeding ground for predatorial behavior.

Cause I, I feel like I used to think like, Hey, this stuff happens in the world, but be careful. It can also happen in the church. But it's almost the opposite. Like, is a church almost more conducive for this kind of thing to happen?

I feel like I hear you saying that. Okay. It is. One of the reasons with the SBC, where our focus is with advocacy with the SBC, is that what we're trying to do is we're not asking them to change their theology. We're not asking them to change even their polity, which is a big word that's thrown around a lot, which is all of their governances and the way the system is set up. We're asking them to make it safer. One of the questions I often say is, is it as safe as it could be? And many, many people say, well, yeah, we've done all

we can. We can sit here and name a list of things you haven't done and aren't willing to do that would make it safer. But if you look at your schools and you look at sporting venues and, you know, events for coaching children and that kind of thing, there are parameters and there are codes of conduct. there are lines that cannot be crossed. There is immediate reporting to authorities, there's not a grace card given. There is follow through with the authorities, there is a lot of times, kind of maybe even databases within systems in which this is not a safe person. This is no longer a person that should be able to be around children, even if they're not criminally convicted. So a lot of

people wait on the predatory status. They don't have any record of being convicted. There are a lot of studies out there about the percentages of convicted predators. And the norm is that a very, very small percentage is ever charged with crimes and even less that are prosecuted. So there's not going to be a criminal record most of the time. So yes, it becomes this place where there's not a real reporting system to track abusers within the SBC, especially within most churches in general. There's no one higher up to report to and to keep account of an abuser moving from church to church because the pastor that allows them to leave out the back door quietly to avoid

a scandal for his church also doesn't call ahead and find out what church he moves to and do any kind of follow-up to alert that church that, by the way, we had several incidences at our church where parents were reporting inappropriate activity. And what we also see is that they start small. They start with just words or saying inappropriate things, then it moves into touching and then it continues to just move further and further as they realize they can get away with it. So if we had ways to properly report, and that means that a church has to help that survivor walk to the police station and make their reports, that's a church's responsibility. It happens in your

church. It happens with your people. You should walk the victim through the process and be a minister to them and shepherd them. And then follow through. Make sure that that predator, that person that's being inappropriate, even if they haven't gotten to a really predatory status, that there's some accounting for that and that there's warning to others. And in your story, going back to 1991, when you blew the whistle, you said it just was not received well, like people sided with him and were against you. Can you take us back to that time and help us understand what happened? Yes.

So 1991, I reported to my direct pastor, who was the person responsible for bringing the predator into the church as an evangelism speaker. What I did not know at the time that I know now is that there were already many, many, many allegations against my abuser. Oh, wow. That my pastor, his name is Jerry Vines. He was the pastor of First Baptist Church of Jacksonville. He and Paige Patterson were mentors to Daryl Gillyard. During the years in which Gillyard was at seminary, which was Criswell College, Paige Patterson was the then president of Criswell College. And there were a lot of allegations of abuse from students of Gillyard's predatory behaviors, attempted rapes, even rapes themselves that he followed through on.

And Gillyard had been fired from five churches for inappropriate activity with parishioners. Five churches during seminary. And each time, Paige Patterson and Jerry Vines were made aware of all of those. And Vines actually wrote about it in his book in 2014, but he lied about it. And that's a whole different subject. a whole different subject, but he admitted that they knew these things were happening and that Paige Patterson was investigating them himself and found them not to be credible. You know, all these reasons why it couldn't possibly be. You have a predator who's just those short years of seminary has multiple, multiple, multiple complaints against him. I believe there were 21 total at that time.

And they allowed him to continue on into ministry and not only to continue, but they put him on platforms. They introduced him to other conventions and situations in which he was allowed to speak at the national convention. He was on Jerry Falwell's radio hour. He was very influential as a predator pastor, and they were helping promote that. And then Jerry Vines invites him to travel with our youth group. So we're not talking about an unknown predator. We're talking about a known predator being invited to travel with a youth group within a church. And then when I go to him to report that he has attacked me and tried to rape me, and I say this because I tried, I had to fight with everything in me, fight off this predator. And I tell my pastor the details, and I'm there broken before him saying, I never saw

this coming. I can't believe this. I, I didn't, I didn't even think that he was seeing me this way. I certainly wouldn't have been talking to him or been around him. Had I known, I really thought he was mentoring me and I'm sitting here just in my, you know, um, shock state telling him what happens. And he didn't even react. There was no emotion. There was no brokenness. And he sat across the table or the desk, very reserved. And he said,

who else knows what happened? And which my mom and I said, no one, we've told no one, we came to you first. And he said, okay, well, this would be really embarrassing for you if this got out. Oh, my God. So encouraging me to be silent. And then he said, I'm going to speak with Dr. Patterson and some others, and we will handle this. So no encouragement to go to the police to report a sexual assault. Did not tell us that he's already had plenty of allegations against him. It was laid. I literally felt like I was the only person he had done this to. So therefore,

thinking in my own shame, something must be wrong with me that he would see me in this light. But then when he said it would be embarrassing for you if anyone knew the shame that came over me, I still carry pieces of that with me today. And nothing was done. He was allowed to continue to move forward. At that time, I literally thought nothing was done. I only found out during the Houston Chronicles reporting, I told Rob Downen produced a series called Abuse of Faith through the Houston Chronicle. And he and his team really exposed the Southern Baptist abuse crisis. And when I was speaking to Rob about my own story over that year of him gathering information, I said, I know that there's tapes out there that exist that I was told about, but no one will ever give me a copy or let me see. And I know that

multiple people have copies of it, of which there was some kind of confrontation of Daryl Gillyard by Patterson and Vines and some others. And they're confronting him about his abusive behaviors and all of these people that continue to come forward against him. And so Rob ended up getting those. Someone finally released them, someone that had held onto the tapes all of these years. And Rob, he has edited versions in the Houston Chronicle reporting online. You can see some of those videos. And interestingly, Gillyard actually says in one of the confrontation pieces in which there's actually a woman there confronting him directly about her own story. He says, I let Patterson handle it. Well, Patterson went in and talked to them.

As far as I know, Patterson investigated that and proved it not to be true. He knew that he had a running man. He knew that he had someone covering for him. And that's why we're here today. This happens far too often. And there's far too many people under this guise of protecting the church and protecting the image. They are knowingly covering for predators. Not because they're necessarily thinking that their abuse is okay.

But because they think that there's this concept that we need to protect the church and the image of the church. And that if people knew, then it would cause scandal and problems. And they're not counting the cost of the lives that are crushed under the weight of abuse. I can only imagine just even you speaking this is reliving it. So again, thank you for being courageous. I think I'm just so sorry that you had to go through this. And I know that's just such a thin response, but I'm just. It's appreciated.

I can't. It is. Well, here's what's shocking, Tiffany, is I went to the Wikipedia page on Jerry Vines or whatever, and they even have a little section here on controversy about making some negative statements about Islam or something. There's nothing that even mentions this. And I appreciate, you know, it's not that people covering it up or knowing about it and not dealing with it. It's not that they're pro-abuse necessarily. But the negligence has led to the abuse of, I don't want to put a number, I don't know the number on it, but like in the case of your predator.

I mean, post-1991, you said there were several other that came out. So those are somebody's daughters and sons even in other cases that had to endure abuse because of pastoral negligence. I mean, that's not, we can't take that. I'm not preaching to the choir here, but that's just, that's utterly appalling, like utterly appalling. and things that can help, you know, kind of protect you and insulate you from the truth. The reason you don't see anything in the Wikipedia about that is because in my own story, for most of my life, advocating for this, when I mentioned Jerry Vines and Paige Patterson, most of the time, and including the Houston Chronicle reporting, they had to work really hard to get around this. Most of the time, news organizations don't want to touch any story with those names because they are worried about counter suits, you know, defamation, whatever.

But when they reach out to them for comment, they refuse to comment. to comment. So they kind of put media in a bind in which here you're offered to tell your side of it, Paige or Jerry, they just go stone silent. And I mentioned that, you know, that power plays into that. That is what allows for them to get away with the cover-ups that happen, that maneuver behind the scenes to let people know. So let's say that 20 pastors raise up and go, well, well, Paige Patterson, why didn't you stop Daryl Gillyard back in Criswell in the late eighties? They will be on a shopping block so fast that everyone's head spins because they will have no voice in the SBC. They will not be listed on speaking engagements. They will suddenly fall from the ranks. And so there's an insulated power structure within the upper echelon of most organizations,

not just exclusive to SBC. It just is the way it plays out in politics and everything else. And there's spin people that can go around and clean it up. What this report did for us is it was able to go in, they were able to investigate Guidepost Global, did the investigation on just a small branch of the SBC, just a small number of people, which is called the Executive Committee. This was not an investigation on the entirety of SBC, nor does it include all of its 40,000 churches. It was only related in scope to the Executive Committee, which are kind of the decision makers in between conventions as to how they handled it,

of which sitting presidents are always, it's kind of, they go hand in hand. If you're a sitting president, you also are a member of the Executive Committee, which, you of, they go hand in hand. If you're a sitting president, you also are a member of the executive committee, which, you know, Jerry Vines and Paige Patterson were a part of that, but the scope was for 20 years. And my case is outside of that scope. However, what they found during the investigation is what we always knew. There was plenty of correspondence going on in between leadership, either discussing their involvement in that, mentioning Daryl Gillyard, mentioning that we know this exists. And then the list that was being kept all of those years, Daryl Gillyard had almost a whole page on his own of reported

abuses in which Paige Patterson and Jerry Vines names come up automatically in it. So they were able to expose their names to truth, bring that darkness to light for the first time ever, um, that exposed that everything I've been saying all along has been true. Um, and you know, this is a scripture that I, I use very often in this world because they like to use, um, having two or more witnesses and, and, um, you know, if you don't have absolute credible evidence, as if anyone walks around with a camera waiting for, you know, an abuser to attack them so they can have, you know, solid proof. Um, the Bible tells all of us, but especially men of God, men who are in ministerial positions, it says to take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. And that's Ephesians 5.11.

And what these men do instead is they don't expose it. They cover it. They keep it to themselves. They hide it. They talk amongst themselves into how to best get through the problem without liability. They are not following the mandates of God. And that's what we're trying to expose so that there can be better accountability. And so that these alliances behind the scene don't allow for these years, 20 years of cover-up that have been revealed right now.

Through the report. Can you talk to us about the report? Again, pretend like people know nothing about it. So what is this report that just came out and what was revealed in it? I know we spoke offline. You said you read through the entire thing, which it's not a short report. What did it discover? organization per se. They are an organization that investigates churches all over the world. They also investigate businesses and corporations, any kind of wrongdoing. They can be hired to do a deep dive investigation into, you know, any kind of digital imprints within a company or corporation or the church where they can have access to files, testimonies, all of those things. And what happened with the situation is we continued to ask for an investigation. Last year, the executive committee

said, well, we'll investigate ourselves and we're going to hire Guidepost Global to investigate us, but they would have full power and control over what they had access to, over what would be revealed. So they would have the power to say, well, let's keep that out of the report. So thank goodness we had a group of men, pastors, leaders that rose up and brought a motion to the floor of the convention last year, asking for an independent investigation so that same investigation and using the very same team, Guidepost Global, but we want it to be independent and we want a task force formed that will oversee the investigation and make sure that everything stays above board and that nothing is hidden.

And part of the ask was that there would be a waiving of privilege. That allowed for us to really get to the truth. Without the waiving of privilege, they would have been able to hide behind attorneys. They would have been able to hide a lot of the emails and correspondences that have now been released and are part of the report. There are actual quotes and actually screenshots and other things that prove our case, which is that there has been a group of men that were, you know, kind of leadership driven at the top who were able to hide things behind their attorneys, discuss them with the law firms of the council of the EC. But then knowing that

it was privileged information, they could discuss it and move on, but never actually act or do anything to prevent abuse. However, publicly, the executive committee was telling the members of the SBC, there's nothing to see here. We are dealing with abuse. We always are going to step up to deal with abuse. Basically vilifying any of us who were speaking out saying, no, you're not getting the truth here. There are some active roles that are being played to silence victims. And the investigation was approved last summer by the messengers. They voted it in. I was in the room for that vote. We have been asking for this investigation and also for a database since 2008. And every year that it would come to the floor, it would be voted down for polity reasons

and stating that they couldn't possibly do something like this. And last year at the convention, the people have heard enough of our stories and begun to listen that they almost unanimously in that room, I know that there were thousands of people there. I would say at least 6,000 people in the room. I have heard 16,000, but I don't

think that's quite right. And to see the yellow cards, which are the voting cards go up around the room unanimously reduced me to tears. And I was sitting on the floor at the front of the auditorium when it happened because I wanted to see the response. So I, you know, all the seats were taken up towards the front rows and all. So myself and a couple of other survivors sat down on the floor, you know, kind of at the side of the room there at the front with all of the leadership on the stage, right kind of beside us, behind us. And I watched those cards go across the room. And there's a lot of pictures in that online. There's a lot of reporters captured it. And I just thought, finally, finally, you're listening. Because we've always thought that if the general people of the convention, there are so many good people and there are so many good pastors and people that really love the Lord and that want the right things. If they knew what was going on behind the scenes, they wouldn't allow it.

I knew that. I didn't lump them all in with the basket. I just felt like we needed to have the truth revealed. So they voted yes, that that's what they wanted. And then the EC actively tried to thwart the waving of privilege. There was certain leadership within the executive committee that fought tooth and nail. I was at all of those executive committee meetings. And I mean,

people were going toe to toe. Some saying we have to do what's right. We have to honor God. We have to do the things we're called to do. And the messengers want this. And then you had this other group saying, oh, no, no, no, they didn't know what they were asking for. Because if we allow this to move forward, we're exposing ourselves to liability. And certainly the people didn't understand the exposure this brings. So basically, they're not smart enough to know better, is what they were saying. So we lost four months of the investigation to the infighting about whether or not waiving privilege was going to be allowed and whether or not we were going to move forward, you know, in all realms of the investigation. So 288 pages of the report is only seven months, maybe. I mean, that is, that's actually being very generous saying seven months that they had to investigate 20 years of activity of everyone that's come and gone from the executive

committee of staff, of past staff, current staff, of communications, records. They did a phenomenal job getting 288 pages. But I also, during my time with Guidepost Global team, which was a very kind and dedicated group of people in my case, that's how I feel about them all that they needed to do was see if what we've been saying all along is right. And they certainly found that and more and put it all into a report. So their investigation was, sorry, just of the certain members of the executive committee, it wasn't like they did not even touch like just the tens of thousands of churches on the ground um no yeah and that's why you said it's just scratching it's just scratching the surfaces right right and so your story is it in the is it in the report and it was i mean it is justified not that you know not that you needed needed justification but i mean it that

verified everything you're telling us here on this podcast. It did. It verified it. And it also showed all of the years and really it was kind of more focused too on the advocacy piece of it that they have indeed made advocates out and survivors. I mean, I'm a survivor first, out to be the villains in this, saying that we were trying to destroy the church. And a lot of the communication behind the scene was about silencing us, about not listening, about how to get around certain claims that were being put. But the most hurtful thing of all is, as I said, we've been asking for a database to track abusers since 2008, and it's been denied. They were actively keeping their own list of abusers secret. They were holding it unto themselves, telling no one, only discussing the fact that we're adding new ones to the list, or

we need to be careful, make sure that this remains private. And they had confidential labels on it. And that was revealed in the report that all along they had been keeping a running list. And the motivation is to maintain power and money. I mean, is that like because I mean, they would have major lawsuits, right? If they went more public with these allegations and investigation, they'd be looking at lawsuits every time they turn around, right? And is that what they were trying to avoid by covering up in your opinion? One of the EC leaders, and this is on record as well, And it was reported that he said, we've got to protect the base.

And that is the motivation. What's the base? The base being the money. Okay. The base of the giving of all of these churches, all of the cooperative giving and all of the money that pours in for the SBC as a whole. SBC hides behind this wording in which the way that everything is set up is autonomous. So each church is responsible for itself. They're not governed by the higher body of the SBC. They have no authority to tell another church what to do. If you pay attention,

though, to SBC life, if you find a woman in a pulpit of a church or someone ordaining a female for pastoring, even if it's just for ministry in general, or if there is a church that is found to affirm homosexuals, suddenly they're not autonomous any longer. And they go in publicly to shame the church involved. They will warn everyone not to be a party to this and sometimes even disfellowship churches over it. So we knew that autonomy only pertains to the things that they want it to and that really they're responsible to God and God says to call out abuse and expose evil. So that's what they were hiding behind. The lawyers themselves for sure were advising the top leadership to maintain this autonomy so that they would not be sued. Okay. Wow. When all those yellow cards go up and you're brought to tears, that must have been overwhelmingly encouraging.

And yet, did you have a sense of like, why did it take this long? I mean, did you have mixed feelings or were you kind of like, yeah, tell us about how you process that. Yes. Why did it take so long just to be heard and to be seen? But also at the same moment, knowing we still had such a long road ahead of us. Yeah. I did not think that just because the people want to hear that it was going to be easy to be heard. Yeah. just because the people want to hear that it was going to be easy to be heard, you know, by any means. And that was shown with the executive committee situation that I told you

about where they started infighting about whether or not they were going to follow the will of the messengers. You know, as I said, I was at all those meetings. I watched all that play out. It was very hard to sit through and to watch and to listen. And we're nowhere near the finish line. We are just at the beginning. We're at the start of the race right now. Now that the truth has been revealed, we still have to see what the messengers are going to do with it.

And leadership right now in the SBC world, it's very contentious in who is going to be the new SBC president, who's going to be the executive committee replacements, because the ones that were against waiving privilege, once they lost the vote, they literally got up and walked out and quit their service to the EC. So I felt like I was watching a bunch of kids leave the sandbox with their toys. You know, if I'm not going to get my way, we're going to leave. And I believe it was 25 members that left and just said, I don't want any part of the executive committee anymore if you're

going to go this route. So now those seats have to be replaced. Yeah. JD talked about that in the last podcast, that the people on the EC that were kind of holding things up, they're all gone. He didn't explain details on how they got gone or what happened, but just like the people that were kind of preventing this from moving forward in a helpful fashion are no longer there. Is that pretty accurate? And is that encouraging that now you have overwhelming support to do the right thing, whether it costs a ton of money or whatever, but to do the right thing? Do you feel like the people in leadership now are moving full steam ahead and the direction you would say is a good direction? I feel like the temperature definitely changed when those left.

A lot of the opposition for good that, you know, were against any kind of good happening, those opposing forces walked out, but they are still very, very vocal. So if you are on any kind of, you know, Twitter platforms and church platforms within the SBC, you will see a lot of shots across the bow. A lot of those people call themselves the pirates and they're going to take back over the convention. It's really silly behavior from pastors, but their viewpoint is that there's this liberal takeover and that social justice warriors are trying to change the convention by being a part of this. So yes, they pulled out their actual active voting voices within the executive committee, but they are very actively

trying to pull the rug out from under anyone who is trying to work for change. So there's been an incredible uprising of people that are actually actively supporting our efforts who have said, we have to get this right. Um, uh, Roland Slade and Ed Litton have been, um, Roland Slade leading the executive committee and Ed Litton being the president of the convention this year have held hard and fast to, we have to do this right. We have to get this right. Um, they have been very encouraging through the processes, but at the end of the day, it really comes down to, um, especially in next week's voting, what the messengers choose because it's their voice. right wow golly um it's heavy isn't it it's so yeah it's it's hard to find words um is there a sense of the the people that don't want this to move forward in a healthy way um

do they deep down not believe a lot of the allegations is there some of that and i do have a follow-up question to that but but is that, um, cause I don't, even if you're like anti social justice or whatever, like the, the, Oh, I'm concerned about liberalism. Like this is sexual abuse. Like this isn't, this isn't in the same category as that. Like, unless they're like, well, is it really like, is there a sense of doubt that this is really that a lot of these allegations are true? Is there a sense of doubt that this is really that a lot of these allegations are true? I think for a lot of years, I think definitely over this, you know, last definitely 20 years as the voice for change rose. I think that over the last 20 years, the average SBCer, the messengers and the average churchgoers, because there is a difference. There's the appointed messengers from each church that go to do the voting, but then there's the people within

the church that assume that everyone's doing the right thing and that they're trusting that the votes are being voted properly. They've all been listening to their upper-level leadership. They have been putting all of their eggs in one basket, so to speak, and not really checking behind the scenes or following up on stories to find out if they're credible or if they're true. They are assuming, and I don't mean this disrespectfully, but almost in a cult-like fashion, it's more like we just trust our leaders. We are not going to do the things that God tells us to do, which is to watch them and know them by their fruits and to expose darkness when it comes. And even if it's another pastor or leader that they have discipline that God mandates, they have assumed that their leadership was doing

the right thing. And this report exposed the opposite. However, the most discouraging part is that it is a 288-page report. It is heavy reading. I read it all in one day. I shared with you before, I kind of told my family, I am off for today. And I kind of closed myself in my room and made my way through the report. And of course I had to take breaks and I had to drink a lot of calming tea and different things to try to get through it. But most, even most pastors, it took them a week to get through the whole report. You know, everybody has obligations and duties and jobs and things, and it's, it's a lot to get through. The average messenger and the average church grower church goer is not going to read 288

pages to know what all has gone on. And they're still going to listen to the soundbites of leadership. And the soundbites of leadership that have thwarted this process are still saying, yes, but, you know, yes, it's an issue. However, there's a lot of language that still kind of tramples down on the truth and if people still continue to listen without looking for themselves then we're still going to have problems yeah yeah golly wow tiffany oh one other question before we finish things up um and this is one of those questions that I almost don't want to ask, but it's just like, if it is a bad question you've been asked, just let me know.

But like, were there allegations that turned out to be like not true? And how many of those are there? Is that even, and hopefully, you know, I'm not asking, that's not, I'm not like, well, is it really, I'm not doing the, is it really true? Yeah, I understand. But has there been cases where somebody was accused of something where they were completely innocent? I've got friends that have been in a situation like that where there was, you know, nothing major. I'm trying to think back.

Like nothing major, but it was, you know, somebody saying something, you know, that was like, just turned out to be genuinely not, not true. Um, is there some of that that came out in the report or is that so minimal that, you know, it's not even worth comparing or there, there was no incident in the report that was, um, highlighted or that came through or that even was talked about. There was no, um, communications. They re received like, I'm afraid I'm going to get the number wrong. It's been in my head for so long and suddenly I go to say it and I'm questioning my number. But there was terabytes of data that they had to come through, which, you know, equated to emails and letters and correspondence.

Nowhere in there was there a case talked about in which he was falsely accused or any of that. Not once. However, we do realize that there is a tiny percentage where that happens. But we are talking such a minuscule amount of false allegation cases that it certainly in no way outweighs the numbers that there really are. And again, that's the tip of the iceberg. We haven't even really, really known. I mean, right now I have survivors contacting me who are speaking out for the first time.

And I know other survivors that are getting that. There are calls coming into the SBC for people that are now wanting to report now that people are listening. And I think we're going to see those floodgates continue to open over the next few years. Yeah. Wow. So for my entire life,

and I've talked about this on a podcast a few times, and I always get mixed reviews when I talk about this, but early on when I got saved at 19 and came out of a typical teenage boy, kind of flirty and date around and do whatever. When I got saved, I became so adamant about not doing that anymore or even sending the slightest message that I'm flirting with somebody or I was so scared to death that I would behave in such a way towards another woman that would make them feel uncomfortable. So I swung so far in the other

direction. I didn't know what the Billy Graham rule was, but I was like, oh yeah, I'm not going to tell a joke to another girl. I'm not ever going to talk to a girl one-on-one. Because what if I do something totally unintentional that sends a message or is misinterpreted or whatever. So I went so far on the other side. And now more recently, I'm like, well, that's not healthy either. And I've had, you know, women tell me, well, that's just not every situation is a sexual situation. I'm like, I'm not saying it is. I'm just like so nervous about giving off some unintentional thing. So when I hear some people push back against the Billy Graham rule or even hearing me talk like that, they're like, well, that's wrong. But then I hear this report, I'm like, but this is very real too.

Men do things to make especially other women feel uncomfortable, and I would be appalled if I ever did anything like that. Where's the – I mean, how would you disciple me through this tension? Like, cause it is, it's, it's really hard. And every time I see things like this report come out, it just flares up these kind of anxious feelings to me again. Like, oh yeah, I'm just, yeah. Going to err on the side of like not doing something unintentional.

Does that make sense? Yes. Yes. I mean, I have sons and, um, I certainly would never want them to be in a position of, um, being falsely accused. And I, I know of a case, um, not related to church abuse, but I know of a case of a student who was an athlete at a school being falsely accused. Yeah. And, and I say that because eventually the girl admitted that she made up the story and she got caught basically and her parents shamed her. And so she blamed someone else and said she was raped versus the truth of what happened, which later came out, but it ruined his high school career and his ability to play ball, which he had scholarships. I mean, that happens. We're not denying that. However,

we are responsible for our behaviors, sure. We are responsible for how we handle ourselves in public, girls and guys. What I think has driven this issue within the SBC circles, a lot of it is derivative from the whole purity movement and the purity culture. A lot of the messages there were that girls are responsible for boys' behavior, for how they're viewed by them, you know, kind of the male species, like we can't tempt them, and you have to cover yourself. And it was the onus was always put on the girls and making sure that in no way were you leading someone on, even by being too friendly. And there was just this pressure. But there were also these messages to boys that they have to look away, avoid eye contact.

Don't look at girls. Just this obsession with how we behave around each other. Um, and I think that in my opinion, it drove a lot of our own messages. Um, so even your inner, um, messages about yourself and your worth and how you're viewed and, um, how you're to behave and, and fault and shame and all of these things. And same thing for guys, fear, right? There's a lot of fear tactics of, you know, being careful, being alone with a girl and don't put yourself in these positions, but also that women are temptresses somehow. And I think that we've just really got to get honest with ourselves about our own motivations and our thoughts and our feelings. And there are a lot of hurting people out there for many, many different reasons.

And, you know, I have cautioned my boys as they were dating to treat girls with the utmost respect and to also realize that they are influencing how their future plays out. So if you harm them in a relationship or even hurt them or dump them, you know, quickly with no explanation, anything that breaks their heart in those ways gets carried over into their next relationship. So there's a responsibility, yes, for how we treat people, but we are not responsible for other people's predatory behaviors. And that's where the line is kind of drawn. drawn. There's a big difference between predatory people and someone who makes a mistake or who, you know, is falsely blamed for, you know, activity in a relationship. And then, you know, someone's feeling shame and so they blame the other person.

That's a completely different conversation. But it also at the same time is something to understand. And that's why there's more things that come together to prove a story credible. And a lot of times it's positions that a person placed themselves in, you know, were they in a darkened church alone when everybody knows that that's a no-no and you shouldn't be, you know, things like that in which predators tend to set up situations. And so there's usually more to the story that you can kind of see markers that there were choices being made intentionally to put someone in different situations or to have access. Right, right. Yeah, that's good. That's super helpful. I just I've gotten to the point now it's like, Right. Yeah, that's good. That's super helpful. I just, I've gotten to the point now and it's like, even, you know, if I'm speaking somewhere and, you know, a woman comes up and tells me her story and maybe she starts crying, like, like I'm really, I don't think I've ever done it. I'd like give her a hug or something. So I'm like, I don't, what if that hug makes her feel uncomfortable? What if, or even if I see, you know, some people say, well, ask, hey, can I give you a hug? What if she was in an abusive situation where somebody said that same word and now me by even asking for a hug is triggering? What if that comes off as being advancement? I'm in a position of power as a speaker and even asking puts her in a place where she can't say it. There's just so many things that go through my head where I'm like, I'm just not hugging. Sorry. Well, I'll talk to

you. I'll be nice, whatever. But I'm not going to make you laugh. I'm probably not going to smile. I'm going to listen and be compassionate. But I'm just, yeah, I'm really nervous about, because there's so many, I mean, what is it, 20% of women have been through an abusive situation? The numbers are just insane. People have been through so much stuff.

And there's so many things I could do that could be unnecessarily triggering that it's just like, I'm just going to err on the side of, I don't know, like just trying to avoid that. But then again, I can go too far in that direction too. But anyway, I, I, yeah, I should pay you for your counseling services. You know, it's, it, but it is a good question to ask, and it is something important for discussion. And that's also kind of why we would like to see eventually there to be kind of a spelled out code of conduct for, especially for ministers and youth pastors and things like that. But also anybody can follow just things that are kind of crossing a line or that could be perceived improperly, but not, not, you know, moving into this never touch someone thing, but just, just a little bit more common sense and a little bit more directive of, um, how things can be perceived.

So the fact that you're thinking about it and you're thinking it through, um, and that you're, you know, feeling those warnings or those, um, concerns in yourself, uh, means you're, you know, feeling those warnings or those concerns in yourself means you're a safe person. Predators don't think that way. They're thinking, how can I get away with the next thing? So I think people also pick up on that, you know, and I know that even in these EC meetings, knowing that I'm a survivor, most of the EC members are trying to be cautious. And, you know, they might come to you and talk to you and say, hey, I just want to extend some prayers. Do you mind if I pray over you?

Because prayers are triggering for people that have been abused in church settings. So there's so much education and language out there, and people are starting to look and ask. And I think that that has changed as we try to learn. Well, Tiffany, thank you so much for your time. I got so many other questions, but I've already taken you over an hour. But seriously, to come on and talk about this, and I know you've spoken on this many other places, but I really hope that this short podcast can help educate people and even especially going back to just looking out

for red flags and doing what we can do to make sure this doesn't... I mean, of course, it's going to happen again. We live in a fallen world, but to drastically minimize both the abuse happenings and also the cover-ups, that's easy to control. It's one thing we can't cancel sin from the world. It's going to happen, but the cover-ups or negligence, that's something that we can really easily, I think, get educated and make serious changes. So thank you so much for your voice and many blessings next week with your time in Anaheim. Thank you so much. And I just have one quick thing that you just brought to mind. Yes.

You know, when we're having these discussions and we are looking at the problem and we're evaluating it and having the courage to look at it, that alone is putting abusers on notice. That alone is letting abusers in different churches know that, hey, people are starting to get educated to this and people are starting to pay attention and to realize that's how we thwart abuses is by putting them on notice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Good. Awesome. Well, we'll keep doing it. But thank you so much for your time. My pleasure.