Theology in the Raw - S9 Ep983: Beautiful People Don’t Just Happen: Scott Sauls

Episode Date: June 23, 2022

Scott is the Senior Pastor of Christ Presbyterian Church in Nashville, Tennessee. He is married to Patti and has two daughters, Abby and Ellie. Previously, Scott was a lead and preaching pastor for Redeemer Presbyterian Church in New York City, where he worked alongside Dr. Timothy Keller. Scott has authored six books: Jesus Outside the Lines, Befriend,  From Weakness to Strength, Irresistible Faith, and A Gentle Answer. His sixth book, Beautiful People Don’t Just Happen was just released, and it’s the topic of our conversation.  Book:https://www.amazon.com/Beautiful-People-Dont-Just-Happen/dp/0310363446  Scott’s Website: https://scottsauls.com/  Scott’s Social Media Links:   https://twitter.com/scottsauls https://www.facebook.com/scott.sauls.7/ https://www.instagram.com/scottsauls/ –––––– PROMOS Save 10% on courses with Kairos Classroom using code TITR at kairosclassroom.com! –––––– Sign up with Faithful Counseling today to save 10% off of your first month at the link:  faithfulcounseling.com/titr or use code TITR at faithfulcounseling.com –––––– Save 30% at SeminaryNow.com by using code TITR –––––– Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out Dr. Sprinkle’s website prestonsprinkle.com Stay Up to Date with the Podcast Twitter | @RawTheology Instagram | @TheologyintheRaw If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review. www.theologyintheraw.com

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. The Exiles in Babylon Conference is now available through video. If you go to theologyinraw.com, you can get all the information there. If you want to learn more about race and racism, sexuality, gender, politics, unity in the church, and or a theological debate on hell, then check out theologyinraw.com. Get access to all the videos from last year's Exiles in Babylon conference. We are doing another Exiles in Babylon conference next year. That's March 23rd to 25th in 2023 in Boise, Idaho. So save the date. There's going to be more information available on that very, very soon. My guest today is Scott Sahls. Scott's been on

the show many times, three, four times or something like that. Scott is a pastor. He's an author. He's a Christian leader, especially in the PCA denomination, but really all across the country. And he is just an absolute delight to talk to. His recent book that just came out is Beautiful People Don't Just Happen, How God Redeems Regret, Hurt, and fear in the making of better humans. And that is the topic that we are going to discuss today. So please welcome back to show for the umpteenth time, the one and only Scott Sauls. All right. Hey friends, I'm back with Scott Sa Salls for what number is this, Scott? Is this your least second, maybe third time being on the podcast? I think this might be the third,

Preston. I'd have to go back and check, but it's been at least this is at least the second, but I think it's the third. I think it's been almost a yearly thing and I'm happy keeping it that way, Scott. I was going to say, are you hurting for material or are you having a hard time getting your A-list to say yes? You write so many books and they are all so good. Like, do you not preach at your church? How do you have time? Yeah. Well, here's the, I mean, here's the wonderful thing about writing related to what I get to do. I never start with a blank slate. I preach about 40 times a year or 40 Sundays a year at the church that I pastor in Nashville and then probably do another 15 to 20 in other places, conferences, guest speaking, things like that. It's a huge part of my life and what I do. But what happens is you develop this archive of your best,

most refined thought on all kinds of subjects. And while writing a chapter in a book is a very different process, as you know, um, than it is delivering a speech or a sermon. Uh, there is a lot of, um, benefit to having done a ton of research before you even start, uh, you know, sitting down to write. And so I don't know if I've ever written a single chapter without reference, referencing a backlog of work that I've already done in some capacity in the speaking space. So that is, that's a great benefit. Uh, and honestly, writing doesn't take a lot of my time. Um, if I'm, if I'm writing a book, I'll, I'll take one day a month for 12 months. That's my writing period for a book and,

for 12 months. That's my writing period for a book and, and that's it. And, and, um, but having that backlog is, is huge to that. So one day a month, then that's like, that's just built into your schedule. That's, has it been like that for a while? Is that? Yeah. Since 2014, when I wrote Jesus Outside the Lines, which is my first, first book project. So I'm, I'm kind of on an every other year pace and, um, you know, I'll write for 12 months and then the next 12 months is, you know, as you know, Preston, uh, from your wonderful projects, uh, there's the editing process and all the rest that goes into launching a book, which, which feels like a writing sabbatical. So it's like one year sabbatical, one year writing, one year sabbatical is kind of how it feels. Yeah. Well, so the book is Beautiful People Don't Just Happen, How God Redeems Regret, Hurt, and Fear in Making Better Humans. First of all, how did this book come about? I imagine,

like you said, it was probably a sermon series or somehow related to your pastoral work and then give us a snapshot of what it's all about. So, um, so it's, it, it's a product of the last two years, honestly, uh, Preston that we've been in and, and yeah, I think that people were distressed before the pandemic, but I think the pandemic season heightened and amplified and, you know, added oxygen to, um, you know, regret, hurt, and fear, which are the three pain points that I think everybody on some level wrestles with, um, were, were sort of thrust to the center of so many people's lives and communities all over the world. And, you know, as a pastor, I have a front row seat to people's greatest joys and people's, you know, greatest dysfunctions and hardships and distresses. And so it just felt like a season where I thought, you know, I'd really like to have a resource to be able to hand to people who are in distress over guilt and shame, you know, feeling like I'll never be enough over, you know, any kind of hurt, whether it's hurt that we inflict on ourselves through dysfunctional patterns or codependency or whether it's

hurt that we experience at the hands of somebody else or a group of people or hurt that we experience just by virtue of living in a fallen world and a fallen body and that sort of thing. And then the big one is also fear of just how prone we are to meditate on and ruminate on imagined future worst case scenarios. And so I've just seen all three of those realities at, I think what I would describe as a fever pitch in so many different contexts and in so many different people's lives and homes and workplaces and everything else, churches. And I felt like, you know what, I'm in so many conversations right now, including with a really great counselor who's giving me a lot of wisdom, you know, during this season. And so it really was born as a book that

I wanted to be able to hand to not only those who are, you know, trying to navigate those three pain points I just talked about, but also people who are walking alongside them. You know, pastors, mental health professionals, counselors, social workers, you know, just good friends, empathetic friends who feel called to show up for somebody. I don't know how it will play out, but my hope is that it'll be a helpful resource, like a pastor in book form, for those three pain points that people can use in their relationships and communities and working through things personally. I have a lot of counselors and therapists getting behind the project, which is really meaningful to me, which means that it hopefully hit some of the things I wanted it to hit.

Good. I can probably guess at least part of the reasons for regret, hurt, and fear. But can you unpack what are some of the common patterns you're seeing? Why are people hurt? What are they fearful of? you're seeing? Why are people hurt? What are they fearful of? Again, with the pandemic, I could probably get the economic imbalance, all this stuff, like fear of getting COVID and dying or losing a loved one. But yeah, what are some of the sources here that you're doing? Yeah. I mean, COVID just, I think, sent the whole world into a panic, um, you know, truly unprecedented experience,

at least for those of us in the West, right. It's not unprecedented for 70% of the world. Um, you know, 70% of the world is dealing with, with disease and, and high, high mortality rates, you know, for all sorts of reasons, but, but in the West, um, you know, it, know, it was very new to most of us to realize how not only out of control I am, but how out of control we are, you know, as a human race. And, you know, it just sort of broke the illusion that we're in control of anything. and and i just think that that sent um a lot of people in my community right who are used to succeeding and used to winning and used to you know being able to pay a little money to make pain go away you know or or what have you uh and and that was all kind of stripped away um yeah for at least a while and then and then what that led to was, was all the political upheaval around, you know, pick your subject, um, you know, race, gender and sexuality, which is, which is your lane

of expertise. Um, I wish more people would, um, dive into your, your work there. Um, it checks in the mail. Uh, I mean, you, you just, you bring sanity. You bring grace and truth and sanity to the conversation that, you know, when it's taken hostage by the political climate, it just, it goes nowhere except to, you know, more hostile places like any subject. But, you know, even things like mask wearing. I was going to say, yeah, you hit the big ones, but I'm like wearing a mask got political. Yeah, man. Like everything, everything like love your neighbor as yourself now has become in some people's mind, a trigger, uh, where, oh, well that means you must be a critical race theorist because you said love your neighbor.

I'm like, no, it's actually because I'm a Christian, you know, and I don't even know even 10% of what critical race theory is, you know, and all I know is that God calls me to love my neighbor as myself, and if I'm not loving him, if I'm not loving my neighbor, then I'm not really loving God, and I really want to be one of those who is seen as loving God, especially by God himself. And so, yeah, it's crazy, man. Like in church world, I don't know what it's like in your conversations, Preston, you know, conferences that you do and the stuff that you write and put out there. But in church world, the way to grow a church really fast right now is to become as partisan as you can. And the way to shrink your church

is to be somewhere in what I would call the faithful middle, where you're affirming the good on the right and the left, and you're critiquing what's not so good on the right and the left. That's a great way to lose church members these days, to hyper-partisan churches whose politics have in many ways become their religion. And so it's kind of a crazy environment, but I think that's amplified, you know, back to the question, that's amplified regret, you know, guilt, shame, you know, guilt, something I did, shame, it's who i am because of what i did right um and then you know the hurt and fear aspects and i think there's a lot of anxiety right now because like the last couple years we thought okay as soon as we can get out if we could just

get out of this pandemic everything will go back to normal but it we haven't gone back to normal. And people just hate each other a lot more now and are more deeply entrenched in echo chambers now than ever before. So, man, I'm hoping that you can give us the answer on the way out of all this. Well, here's, I mean, and I agree with everything you're saying, but just the other day I kind of reflected on – this might be a long way. It may take me a few seconds to unpack my question.

But we've been through a lot the last couple of years. But this is pandemics and riots and economic insecurity, that's more normal than not. And I wonder, I mean, we're roughly the same age. You're 32 as well, right? Yeah, I'm going on the 22nd anniversary of my 32-year-old birthday. Like from the 80s till now or till 2015 or whatever like um pretty uniquely padded existence you had the economic flourishing of the 80s largely you had and there's some wars you know

but nothing like the vietnam war world war ii you know but the 70s had a lot of economic upheaval. People like gas shortages and major inflation. And the 60s were the 60s. And even the heart of the Cold War, like maybe tomorrow we'll be nuked. And we don't even know. You had the Bayonets. And then World War II. And you had a window of the 50s, I guess, for white straight men were pretty great. But then before that, you had hitler that wasn't

that long ago and then the 20 the flu the the the with the flu of 20 or 1919 or whatever 1918 that killed like 25 million or 50 million people what the what we're in now is isn't that abnormal it's more normal than not we just we just kind of were raised in a really kind of padded small window of time. So my question is, why now? Because in the past, I don't think we had the same skyrocketing suicide, anxiety, depression, drug abuse, alcohol abuse. That stuff always has been there. But these skyrocketing rates now what why were they not always there were we just a more resilient people back then is does the internet have something to do with it like does that make sense it might even right like is maybe i'm inaccurate maybe it's an inaccurate observation so i guess i need to know from you if if i'm even making an accurate observation. Well, I can't, you know, I'm no, I'm not a sociologist and I'm not a,

I'm not a therapist. Yeah. So, you know, I'm, I'm a, I'm kind of an armchair quarterback on such, such, you know, big, you know, important questions, but anecdotally, it's, it's absolutely true. Like, you know, I know our church is getting a lot more, you know, requests for assistance with mental health challenges, you know, either from pastoral staff or, you know, from the benevolence folks who, you know, help people financially with things like counseling and therapy and things. It's higher than it's ever been in my 26 years of pastoral ministry. I've never seen anything like it. And that's also true of pastors.

true of pastors. You know, Barna has just come out with their most recent data indicating that, I think it's like 40%, or maybe just a little bit below, like 38, 39% of pastors are looking to leave the ministry entirely right now, which is a lot of people. It's a lot of people uh it's a lot of a lot of faithful people just feeling like ah just don't know if i got it in me to to keep doing this because you know it it's just you know the climate is is um it's just something else man it's it's a it's a climate like never before, in my opinion. So why now and not for every other generation that went through, I mean, arguably more stressful world events and things going on? I mean, I know we blame everything on the internet, but I think the – It's the internet's fault. That's my theory. I just wonder if maybe more than ever, if you go on social media, like you go on Twitter and just scan Twitter, that makes you think that the world's about to end and that everybody is just outraged and everybody's being killed and there's

so much horrific things happening and there are definitely challenging things happening but there always has been it's just now is it I guess it's a question like now it's just in our face all the time for those of us who are on social media

which I read something the other day Scott that you you know 20 of american citizens have a twitter account most of them don't hardly use it and they said something like 10 i think don't call me on this but like something like 10 of twitter users are responsible for like 90 of the tweets so that's like five% of the popular – like if you go on Twitter, it seems like this is the world. It's 5% of people who are mentally wired to be angry on a social media platform, which is a unique kind of person. So even that 5% is like a kind of strange 5%, if I can put it like that. Yeah, it feels like a lot more than it is, you're saying. Yeah, it's not – Dave Chappelle said it's not the real world, and it really isn't. Wait, Twitter's not the real world?

Yeah, man. I wonder, Preston, if you're, I think, rightly drawing a contrast between the way things used to be and maybe the resilience of people in the past that's just so much greater than what feels like, you know, a lack of resilience in the present. You know, I wonder if it's because, you know, we lost something that maybe those prior generations never had, you know, an illusion of control. Okay. Disproportionate amounts of comfort and, you know, cushion in our lives that suddenly were lost. I don't know. The political climate, I don't know. The political climate, it's been interesting.

Like, this is just the last decade. But I think that Jonathan Haidt, or Haidt, or however you say say his last name has done a really good job nailing down how and he's he's come out with with with several just really great pieces in the Atlantic yeah that was a great article oh my word he's writing a book out of that um he is that's kind of I think that's kind of what he does he writes you know this epic Atlantic article that goes viral and then he writes a book on it. But wouldn't it be wonderful if it were that smooth for the rest of us? Real quick, I got to get the tie.

It's why the last 10 years have been more stupid or something like that. Uniquely stupid or something like that. that really was just about how there's been this shift to a a culture that used to value tenacity and grit has shifted to a a culture that values emotional safety which is you know and and he's he's he's i think identified that you that safety used to mean physical safety, safety from people breaking into your house, safety from domestic abuse, safety from sexual assault on college campuses, et cetera, like physical safety was what safety used to mean. Now safety, according to Jonathan Haidt – or Haidt. I'm probably butchering his name. H-A-I-D-T. I always say Haidt. Somebody said it's Haidt when they talked to him about it.

But then I've heard him – I'm pretty sure I've heard him say Haidt. I don't know. It's Haidt. Okay, so we'll go with Haidt then. We'll go with what he calls himself. um we'll go with what he calls himself and um and so so now now he says that the prevailing uh thought is that that safety includes uh protection from ideas that make you feel uncomfortable yes yes um this is the coddling of the american coddling of the American mind. Coddling of the American mind. Most important book in the last 10 years in my opinion, or one of the top. Yeah.

I mean, it is sort of the whole concept of safe spaces on college campuses, right? to turn an education into a non-education, is to tell students that if they are made to feel uncomfortable by any ideas that they're exposed to, they can protest and get a speaker uninvited from campus. They can protest and get a tenured professor fired, or make it so miserable for that professor that they feel like they have no recourse, but to quit. Uh, and it all traces back to the idea that, that a group of students got their feelings hurt by ideas that they didn't agree with. Um, now for me, and I know for you, I mean, we're, we're both kind of third way, uh, type people. Um, I've, I mean, I'm an Enneagram four, but I've got a little bit of Enneagram eight in me. Um, you know, the challenger, which actually means that, that, that, that, that robust debate and disagreement is actually a form of intimacy for me. And so,

so I, I'm, I just, I scratched my head at, at the notion of, being you dare not say anything that makes me uncomfortable lest it render you an unsafe person. And there's this interview that I saw a few years ago. a few years ago, it was at the University of Chicago, which is at the place that you would expect of all places, they would just want to champion the notion of this whole new way of thinking. And David Axelrod, who was part of the Obama administration, and then Van Jones, who's one of the more liberal, progressive political commentators, brilliant African-American thinker, but leans really hard left. And Axelrod at the University of Chicago in a public forum asks Van Jones, what do you think about safe spaces? And you're expecting both these guys coming from the progressive mindset at a very progressive institution in a very progressive city to say, oh, safe spaces, man, it's the way to go. We're progressing. We're, we're more enlightened, um, you know,

down with the, you know, down with the people, with the, the ideas that, that, that, you know, make us, you know, bristle. Yeah. And, and Van Jones is like, it's the worst idea ever. You know, safe spaces are the worst idea ever. And it's a killer of education. You know, the idea that, you know, the university of all places is a place where students should feel safe. And he says, of course, I want you to be safe and feel safe physically from violence, from harm, from assault, et cetera. But I do not want you to feel emotionally safe. I want your ideas to be challenged and I want you to develop the emotional resilience to be able to take it and to be able to self-critique and also to be able to, to challenge back and argue for your ideas. Uh, he says, you

know, what's the point of a gymnasium if I have to take, if, if we take the weights, uh, out of the, out of the gym. Um, right. And, and, and so I'm like, wow, man, like, like didn't expect that from, from this conversation, but, but, um, was really onto something. And I think that it's the whole safe spaces concept that has given birth to what now the sociologists are calling expressive individualism, right? Because it used to be that the source of truth, the ultimate source of truth was an objective reality higher than all of us, you know, coming in from outside of us, telling us what the truth is. And our job was to adjust our inner life to what the truth is and to what the truth says, and then to live accordingly. Now it's not truth anymore. It's my truth. Right. And it's your truth. I mean,

how often do we speak your truth? Yeah. You know, and I'll speak my truth. Well, what we have in that arrangement is a bunch of, you know, millions and millions of people whose truths are colliding with each other all the time and contradicting each other all the time. And so, you know, that's my armchair theory as to why there's so much political upheaval and why it's easy to grow a partisan church and hard to grow a reasonable one. And or, you know, think about what if they did an experiment and came up with a cable news channel that was a third-way approach that affirmed the good on the left and the right and critiqued the good on the left and the right. What do you think would happen? Probably a lot of people would watch it, but you'd also get a lot of middle fingers

from the far right and far left. Do you think there's a silent majority that's actually hungering for more nuance? I feel like I am jaded because most of the people I listen to and learn from are heterodox thinkers, are left of center, right of center, or not even part of the paradigm. They don't even consider themselves left or right. Me too. But I feel like, and I feel like they're so reasonable and sane.

There's a medical doctor that I listen to when it comes to a medical doctor. Is that even a phrase? What other kind of doctor is that? It is. Oh, yeah. That's true. It's a non-medical doctor. But his name is Zubin Damania.

Damania? Okay. Hilarious Gen Xer. Very talented, but really brilliant guy. And he's coined the term alt-middle. The alt-middle? Yeah. But really, in any episode, he will, of any person I've listened to,

like honestly follow the data, the evidence. He's very well researched on whatever it is, masks, vaccines, whatever. And it just, at any moment, he could say something that sounds more right, sounds more left, sounds like a weird combination of both. And he just doesn't – he's just a really honest thing. So all that to say, I don't know why I even brought him up, but he's a – it's a brilliant podcast. It's really interesting. But that's the world that i gleaned from so it's right it feels like my confirmation bias is the majority of people are way more reasonable and nuanced and

you have these really fringe people out here but maybe it's the opposite i don't know i don't know man i mean it it's possible that that we too uh preston are in an echo chamber ourselves, right? Yeah. So there was this gathering that I was part of on the East Coast, I guess, last year. And it was put together by, if there ever is another one, you need to be at it. But it was a smaller gathering of about 20 people from around the country, all Christian leaders in different spheres. And I think I was like one of two or three pastors. But it was mostly like journalists and kind of cultural influencers and that sort of thing.

So I don't really know why I was there. But nonetheless, it was a small gathering of people who were just like, are we crazy? Are we missing something? And it ended up kind of being this, OK. So kind of like this Elijah moment, not to dramatize it, but remember Elijah's like, Lord, I'm the only one. Everybody else is about the need to bail except me. And the Lord's like, no, there's actually hundreds of others that haven't. You just, you know, you just need to trust me on this. And so it was kind of one of those moments, but, but I walked away feeling like, yeah, like, like this is a minority group

right now. And, and, and as I look around, like, like here's, here's an example. Like my mentor and spirit animal Tim Keller, right? He's suddenly become unpopular to liberals and conservatives. He's suddenly become unpopular. I don't know why that is. But I will finish your thought. But I – And he's actually living more beautifully now than I think he ever has in the public space by virtue of the way that he's responding to inoperable cancer and incurable cancer. It's like the most beautifully lived season of his life, and he's getting filleted from the right and the left.

For what? It seemed like very reasonable statements. What happened? Now is not the time to be kind. the left um for what very what seemed like very reasonable statements yeah wait what happened like now is not the time to be kind now is the time to be prophetic to you know to confront the evil on the left or as it the case may be to confront the evil on the right you know take a stand have some courage grow some skin a thick skin and so political neutrality is that what he's getting a critique for well that's what he's getting critique for but the, is that what he's getting a critique for? Well, that's what he's getting a critique for. But the thing is, he's not any of those things. He's always been so incredibly courageous. The guy preached against abortion in New York City.

He preached for complementarianism in New York City. Seriously? But just think about the way that he got, you know, the Kuiper Award rescinded at Princeton, right? Like Princeton had awarded him this Kuiper Award for cultural engagement and faithfulness and impact. And then a bunch of students were like, well, he doesn't believe that women should be pastors. Okay, right? And believe that women should be pastors. Okay. Right. And so that's debatable. Um, different people have a different understanding of scripture on that, but Tim, like everything else arrived at his conclusion based on his best, you know, effort at trying to understand scripture on these things. Right. Uh, and so they, from the student, because of the student pressure, they rescinded

the award, but then they asked him to give the keynote speech while somebody else received the award, which he graciously did, you know, in a scene, in a, in a situation where Abraham Kuyper himself on those criteria would have been disqualified to win the award by his own name. Uh, like that's how crazy it's gotten. Um, you know, where he hasn't changed, the climate has changed. Oh, he's, he's preached and Christine Kane would tell you the same thing. She said, look, I am the same person preaching the same message that I did 25 years ago. I have not changed, but the climate has. And I don't know if Tim would say that, but Tim's message, if you listen to his sermons from the mid-90s, they're the same kinds of sermons that he preached three years ago. And so it really is,

I think it's a sociological study more than it is a study on a leader. Did you see that – I'm not on Twitter a lot. Somehow I came across this. Elon Musk, he posted like this graph of left, middle, right and where he was 10 years ago. No. Where he was five years ago and where he is now and he's he's exactly the same like he's he's held the same beliefs uh-huh but then like the center has kept moving to where now he was on the left of center and now the center keeps like the the and and he

was he was critiquing how far left the left has gotten and now all of a sudden people say he's a right winger even though his views have like held the same guy it was exactly what you're talking it was a great illustration i mean it's hilarious in the 90s it was the opposite where where like the right had gone ballistic right um it had gone so far right and and yeah and you know people who were kind of in that middle space were deemed liberal in the same way that those very same people now are deemed too conservative. And they haven't changed. That's a really interesting observation, Preston. So Scott, I think the first time I had you on, or at least one of our earlier conversations we had, might have been offline or online, I'm not sure.

You said one of your kind of hidden goals is to have a church that is like 50% Republican, 50% Democrat, or not political at all. And when you told me this a few years ago, you were like, we're getting – we're not 50-50, but we're representing that fairly well. In light of everything you're saying – We're probably like 60-40. But in the last couple of years with all the divisiveness, have you been able to maintain that kind of – or has your church swung, become more polarized? No, it's stayed about the same. I mean, you know, within our church, we've had certain conflicts because of the fulfillment of our vision that we set out to fulfill in the last 10 years, right? Like we're here, you know, we have four congregations now, you know, one of them is very

red state, you know, another one is very blue state and the the other two, one of them is about 60-40 leaning red. The other is about 60-40 leaning blue. So we've seen a lot of what we set out to do happen. happen. But yes, during the last two years, probably more, you know, kind of more behind the scenes and not so much public, but behind the scenes tension, which you hope will be redemptive, right? You have the Jew-Gentile thing in the New Testament era where, you know, you've got these people from just radically different ways of seeing the world, you know, Greeks and Jews got these people from just radically different ways of seeing the world, you know, Greeks and Jews suddenly being called together, you know, by Paul the Apostle, who was once, you know, the Jew of all Jews, who has been called to be the ambassador of the gospel to the Gentiles. And it becomes such a theme in his ministry of reconciliation, you know, that, you know, personal sanctification in our, you know, relationship with God based on reconciliation with God must lead to social sanctification or social holiness where we find ourselves, we find our friendships growing, you know, with people who, you know, have seen the world differently than us all these years.

And so that's happening, but it's, it, it feels so romantic to talk about diversity. I, I actually think that most people believe a lot more in the idea of diversity than they do in diversity because diversity is very hard. It's a, it's a grind to, to, to try to create a climate that, that serves the purpose of cultural diversity. And so, you know, I think once people who set out with good intentions to build a more diverse community get into it, I think sometimes people regret it because it goes slow and it's got inherent tensions built in it. But it's also a great opportunity for the gospel to be the power of God on the ground in our lives. The political polarization that you kind of led with in the last couple of years,

is it getting better? Like, where are we at in that? I mean, where does that lead? Or is it just, like, because you made a comment that like, we thought that now the pandemic would be over and everything would be, life would go back to normal. But you're like, it's gotten anything but normal. I would say it's a little geographical. Like Idaho where I live, it's been very normal for a while, I would say. We face supply chain stuff. And just the other day, I found out that my well, get this, Scott, we live in the country, just outside the city limits. So we're on a well.

And there's been a bunch of new housing projects in the area. And apparently that's drained our, what's it called? Aqua something. Our water level. Okay. So my well is about to, it's drying up. Like where we are, they had to lower the pump to the bottom, which you're not supposed to do because they're like,

you only have like six inches left. Like you're basically going to run dry. Like, all right, so I need to drill a new well, which i'm not gonna say say how much it costs but here's a kicker every drill company i call they're a year and a half to three years out oh wow i normally say first world problems but like um i might not have water for a year there's people in our neighborhood that haven't had water in for six months. They've been going to the laundromat, showering. Do you ever think that you might be living in America in a middle-class kind of neighborhood and not have water? Like, that's crazy. Yeah. You know, my brother's in the food business and he's saying,

watch out because, you know, supply chain stuff might be about to hit a whole lot of communities that don't expect it um and we face a little bit of that during the pandemic with toilet paper whatever but this is saying more and more things that you just can't yeah which again ultimately i'm going back to your book i guess like beautiful people are created when there's when there's some kind of opportunity for resilience or anti-fragility as, as height would say. Yeah. So,

yeah. So is it, what, what is it getting better? Is it getting worse? What, what, what's your prediction in two years from now?

What's the church going to look like? Are we going to be at these like hyper-polarized churches across political lines? Or do you think people were like, all right, let's, let's go back to the gospel and not be divided over whether masks are effective or not or whatever. Yeah. Golly, time will tell, I guess. In my own context, I do have

hope in that Mike and the Mechanics song that talks about how every generation blames the one before. I do have hopes that, you know, Gen Z and the generation that comes after them will correct some of this. It always seems to happen that, you know, so many of culture shifts end up being along generational lines and generational values and, you know, how their parent wounds inform their view of the world. Uh, you know, I think that's, that's the case with, with every generation. And so I'm hoping that, you know, especially as younger leaders, you know, step into leadership, uh, that, that, that a better way will be paved and, and, um, you know, especially those who are Christian, I hope, I hope end up being very much in the center of, of those conversations. But

in my own, in my own world, I do detect a weariness, um, where, where like people are rolling their eyes these days more than they are listening anymore. Um, uh, at these conversations, I don't know if that's like a cynicism that, that is just dismissive and, you know, kind of like a quiet middle finger or, or if it's resembling some level of, of health, um, of, of, yeah, this hasn't worked. Um, this isn't creating reconciliation and life and peace. It's just creating, you know, it's a negativity that just feeds itself and is contagious like a cancer. And I do think there are, I think there are more people that are growing weary of it. Time will tell whether or not the effect of that will be more solidified polarization,

will tell whether or not the effect of that will be more solidified polarization, uh, where people just go into their corners and just stop boxing against each other and just live in alternate universes altogether. Uh, or maybe the good work of reconciliation will, will move forward. Um, and we'll see more diverse communities and, you know, better conversations. I do, yeah. And if you stare at the news or you stare at political discourse, I think you do get the impression that most every person on earth is strongly committed to one side or the other, that these kind of political partisan,

I should say partisan battles represent most people. I don't know. Like I don't have it. Well, there was a study done. Oh, I forgot the name of it. That was like something about we are more alike than we are different or something like that. And it did. I wish I could look that up. Maybe I'll post something in the show notes. I forgot the name of it. But just anecdotally. So here's an anecdotal example of why I question whether these kind of strong partisan debates are representative of people.

It's basically – I'm trying to agree with your point that the majority might be weary and just kind of more of an eye roll now like really we're just gonna keep fighting do you remember right after the uh the mask mandate was rescinded for flights that was a big deal do you remember that no that wasn't long ago was it no i was like i want to say six weeks two months i um i flew uh i had a long kind of trip where I was in several different cities. I want to say four days after that was rescinded. Now, because masks have been so politicized, right? I mean, you know who somebody voted for whether they're wearing a mask or not. Even today, it feels kind of like that. But especially six months ago.

You know who somebody voted for if they take ivermectin. Just the stupidity of like, it's just like, really? Like, but here's what's interesting is I would have, given how politicized masks are, I would have expected a huge percentage,

maybe not half, maybe 40, maybe 30%, 40% of people still wearing masks because that has become a sign of political allegiance i want to say through major airports on several different flights five percent maybe we're wearing masks and that's not i'm not even trying to make a statement on one i'm not yeah that could you're talking about masks it's just a statement of how it's diminished as a cultural value maybe.

Yes. If you listen to political rhetoric, you go on social media, and you can easily see who somebody voted for, whether they're not wearing a mask, what their view on masks are. I just wonder if the majority of normal people are that politicized. I don't know. Maybe I'm being too hopeful. Yeah. Please, please keep spreading that hope, man. Maybe I'm being too hopeful. Yeah. Please, please keep spreading that hope, man. You know, because here's the thing.

Cynicism, negativity, grumbling are contagious. And so is hope and faith and love. Those things are contagious too. And, you know, I think we're seeing we're seeing something that CS Lewis said play out somewhat where he says, hell begins with a grumbling mood and the world has just had this collective grumbling mood. And it's been kind of a living hell for a lot of people, you know, uh, just, I think people's social realities have become unmoored in this climate.

And so, you know, I'm a super fan for contagious faith, hope, and love, you know, moving forward, because I don't think contagious cynicism and, you know, negativity and grumbling has produced much good personally. Yeah, yeah. Hey, let's go back to your book. We started there and wandered off really quickly. So I'm interested in how God redeems regret, hurt, and fear. We've kind of been exploring and going down the rabbit hole of some of the causes of the regret, hurt, and fear, especially the fear piece. But what's God's, what's your pastoral advice for people that do feel hyper anxious, worried about economic collapse, pandemics, political division?

Yeah. Yeah, I think, you know, there's a lot that I can say on this and have been saying on this in different conversations, but to try to keep it short, Preston, I think seasons like this are a really good occasion for Christians especially to revisit where even the Bible that we say we believe came from and who gave it to us. Um, almost a hundred percent of the books of the Bible were written by somebody who was either in prison, uh, a slave, um, you know, awaiting their execution, um, always, um, facing the, the fear of, of death, uh, and being ostracized in a, in a hostile government climate, whether it's Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon or, or Pharaoh's Egypt or, or, you know, the, you know, Caesar's Rome, which is the backdrop of the entire new Testament. The Bible was given to us by people who sinned deeply and had much guilt and shame.

You could look at King David. You could look at the ancestry of Christ with Rahab the prostitute. You could look at the shame that Tamar, the sexual assault victim, carried. All these are in the genealogy of Christ. David had Solomon through the wife of Uriah, as it says in Matthew. Big sinners, great colossal sinners who found hope in the grace and mercy of Christ. Big sufferers as well, as I've already said, who found hope in the presence of Christ and in the solidarity, uh, that Christ offers as, as the suffering servant. Um, and, and, um, you know, people who were subject to, to big, um, you know, weighty realities of what awaited them in the future. 11 of the 12 disciples died as martyrs. Um, you know, number 12 disciples died as martyrs. You know, number 12,

the Apostle John died, you know, in prison. You know, Hebrews 11, the Faith Hall of Fame, talks about how none of the heroes of the faith saw what was promised to them in their lifetime, but they were looking ahead to a better country, right? Like take Isaiah, for example, right? We look back on Isaiah in the same way that we look back on Van Gogh. You know, Van Gogh didn't become famous until after he died. And his best work, his best art came through deep suffering and pain and personal trauma. He went insane and, you know, was locked up in his insanity. And some of his best work came from those seasons of his life. And you just think about Isaiah, who we get all these wonderful, hopeful, beautifully poetic statements about Christ, the know, the suffering servant or, you know, the word of God won't return void, but will always accomplish the purpose for which he sends it out.

But this is all coming from a prophet who never, you know, experienced a congregation that liked him. You know, never experienced listeners who received his words positively like we do. The guy was eventually put to death by being sawn in two because of his preaching. And so, you know, you look at stories like that and you think, well, now, you know, look at Isaiah now. We do Handel's Messiah every year around the world, around his prophecies, the most quoted Old Testament prophet in the New Testament. You know, he's got it great. Well, he didn't have it great, you know? And so I think just looking at the big picture perspective, that the redemption story, it's

like the pattern of the universe, right? Like, if you want to grow a fruit tree, you've got to kill a seed in order to do it. You've got to take a seed and bury it in the darkness so it cracks open and dies. And out of that death, you get life, right? The Lord's Supper every Sunday, it's wheat that has been cracked and killed and grapes that have been cracked and killed in order to give us bread and wine to reassemble our lives, right? And like, it's just, it's this, it's in metaphor and in reality that God's power is made perfect through weakness, not through political power, not through getting our way, not through having all the money that we

could ever dream of, you know, even though money's a morally neutral thing, it's, you know, it's not bad to have money. It's just, it's just dangerous to love it. But, you know, you look at the Ecclesiastes guy who was the, you know, arguably the one Bible writer who wasn't a sufferer, and he was probably the greatest sufferer. You know, he like, he had all the sex money and power and, you know, fulfilled all his dreams. and the Thomas Merton thing happened to him. I've been climbing the ladder of success all of my life only to get to the top and realize that it's been leaning against the wrong wall the whole time. And so I think seasons like this are seasons of opportunity that can become a seized opportunity to remember, wait a minute. opportunity, that can become a seized opportunity to remember, wait a minute, this is where the magic of God happens, is on the ground, you know, with Jacob wrestling with God, and then he gets up with the limp, or the bleeding woman on the ground grabbing the hem of Jesus's garment, and that's

where she receives the power of God for healing, or the apostle Paul on the ground begging that his thorn be removed, and then he discovers that's where the power of God isle Paul on the ground begging that his thorn be removed. And then he discovers that's where the power of God is found, on the ground. And, you know, or I could go on and on and on. But we have no category for suffering in the American Western church. Or just being uncomfortable, right? Like our church members are conditioning.

You know, like our American church members complain about air conditioning or they don't like the color of the carpet or they don't like that we sang in the key of G instead of the key of C. And those are our issues.

You know, meanwhile, there's more persecution happening around the world against believers than any other time in history in communities where Christianity is vibrant, you know? And so, it's just a gut check, right? Will we seize the opportunity to embrace a robust theology of suffering, or will we waste the opportunity? Because we might not get a pandemic opportunity again. And, you know, I don't mean to be flippant about calling the pandemic an opportunity, but hard time, you know, guilt, regret, fear, suffering, hurt, are opportunities to lean in to the riches that Christ has for his people. Everything you're saying is – Here ends my rant, my sermon.

How do you get through to people with that? Because what you just said in the last five minutes, no Christian or thoughtful human would say, no, no, no, none of that's true. No, no, that doesn't, you know. Yeah. It's so scriptural, at the very least, let alone reasonable. philosopher, religious or not, would have said the same thing throughout history, the Stoics and others. Simply endless indulgement of your desires and comfort is not living with the grain of the universe. It's definitely not the Christian way, but it's not even the healthy human way. How do you get that message through to people? It's not, like you said, it's not, you know, to pursue a successful business is not bad.

To enjoy air conditioning is not bad. To enjoy a good fine wine and a good meal is not bad. Like these are good things. But when some of those, when you go without, if your life crumbles or you can't function or you don't see the value in going without. The average person will see like that is not healthy to be so addicted to comfort that you just kind of lose it or you're so focused on these minutiae things like the air conditioning is

two degrees too cold, two degrees too hot and I lose my mind or whatever. How do you get through to people with that? I think the fishers of men and sower of seeds metaphors that Jesus taught are the way to go and the way to think. participate in God's activity of moving the needle forward in the direction of truth, beauty, redemption, or what the Anglicans and Episcopalian brothers and sisters call his saving health, you know, in the Book of Common Prayer. Fishing and sowing seed, most of the bait that you catch will either get stolen or not bitten and it'll just fall off the hook. Yeah. But every now and then you're going to catch a fish if you just keep casting it out. Same thing with seeds, right? Like we, we reseed our yard every year and, and, you know, we get, we get some, some new grass in there, but most of the seed doesn't take.

And that's the nature of sowing. And I think, you know, trying to put the gospel forward in ways that God has led us to put the gospel forward in our different, you know, spheres, it works the same way. And we just have to be content realizing that, that like, like when, when Jesus rose Lazarus from the dead, there were a lot of people who believed and there were even more people who wanted to kill both Jesus and Lazarus. You know, imagine that, like wanting to kill the guy that Jesus just rose from the dead, you know? Imagine that, like wanting to kill the guy that Jesus just rose from the dead, you know? But, you know. And I don't want to make a distinction here between struggling to embody that way of life where you embrace a good meal and a satisfying meal and also embrace hunger. Like embrace a good paycheck, embrace going without money and having to eat beans and rice, whatever, which probably doesn't happen to hardly anybody listening to the show.

So it's one thing to struggle with that. For instance, I've been on and off trying to do this intermittent fasting thing about this where you go 16 hours without eating. You eat within an eight hour window. So basically if you stop eating at 8 p.m., then you don't eat again until noon. Like no calories, no cream in your coffee. It is, apparently it's good for you.

It's so hard for me. I woke up this morning, 6 a.m. I had a bite last night, I think at 9.30. So I'm like, oh, 1.30? I have to stay awake for seven and a half. Is that eight and a half without food? I wake up hungry. I'm like, I want some cream by coffee. I want some eggs well-seasoned. Maybe I'll make a soup around 11. You know, and even now, like it's 10, you know, and I've got like a soup around 11 you know and even now like it's 10 you know i've got like a few more hours to go and it's hard like so i'm not i'm not at all saying like yay i hate comfort no i love i mean i love comfort but i do recognize mentally

that it's good for me it's good good for my – it increases my human flourishing when I go with desires unmet as part of the rhythm of life and celebrate the times when my desires are met. But I – you know what I'm saying? So I'm the first one to say it's – I don't like suffering. I don't like – I don't even call it suffering. I don't like discomfort. I don't like my well drying.'t like, and I didn't call it suffering. I don't like discomfort. I don't like my well drying. I like water. So it's like,

you know, yeah. Do I sometimes hear a worship song or music and I'm like, ah, it's not my favorite. Ah, is that a key?

Or why is that person? Like I have those same feelings. Yeah. But to be told, but I know it's wrong. Like, I know it's so bad that if I look at the carpet and say, send an email,

like, I'll go be at this car, but this is the worst thing ever. It's blue. And I don't like blue. You're like, but there's people that I don't understand people that, that don't recognize that,

that, that that's not a healthy way to live. Yeah. It's okay to have opinions and perspectives. And it's even okay to share opinions and perspectives, right? Because the blue carpet thing, God is a God of beauty. Aesthetics matter to God like everything else does. And so it's a legitimate, bona fide conversation to have. does. And so it's, it's a legitimate bonafide conversation to have. Um, but the question is, you know, to what degree do we turn good things into ultimate things to the neglect

of ultimate, of actual ultimate things, you know, um, is, is, is not only my, I, is it not just, do my ideas support the love of God and love of neighbor? Okay. Let's just assume we all think our ideas support the love of God and love of neighbor. Does the way that I am bringing forth my ideas support the love of God and the love of neighbor and serve as an example or a picture of that. Um, kind of, that's the next level question. Um, and maybe the, the final question is, um, you know, am I trying to promote a good thing as if it were the ultimate thing? Am I turning a non-essential into an essential? Am I elevating an opinion to the level of the Apostles' Creed, you know, as if it were inerrant and infallible, as if my opinion were actually a fact of the

universe? And that's where we've, you know, just got to do the logs and specs thing. We've got to constantly be in conversation with people who know us well to ask them, how are you experiencing me in this conversation? How do you perceive that others around us are experiencing me in this conversation? And, you know, to have those people in our lives that are both invited to speak in and willing to speak in. And so, yeah, I guess I would just end with that. Well, Scott, it's been an hour. Uh, the book is beautiful. People don't just happen.

How God redeems regret, hurt, and fear in making us, uh, in the making of better humans. Um, at the, at this time of recording, it's not, it comes out next week, but by the time this comes out, it's, it'll already have been out. So I'll just speak in the past tense. Uh, go check out the book. If, uh If something we've said is of interest to you, Scott unpacks this a lot more in his book. What number book is this, Scott? Is this four, five, six? This will be the sixth. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, Scott, love you, brother. Keep doing what you do down there. It's glad to have a like-minded person down there in Tennessee. And we'll have you on next year, probably. like-minded person down there in Tennessee and we'll have you on next year probably. We'll make it two years, but let's try to connect between those times in person if we can. For sure. For sure. All right, man. Take care. Thanks, Preston. See ya. I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm