Theology in the Raw - S9 Ep987: Christian Reflections on the 4th of July: Justin Giboney

Episode Date: July 4, 2022

Justin joins me on this 4th of July to talk about how Christians should think about the holiday. In particular, how should Christians, whose allegiance should be unwavering toward “no king but Jesus,” celebrate the 4th? Or–should we celebrate? What do we do with the dark history that is part of the American story? What about all the good that America has done? What is that good? How do African Americans think through the 4th? Justin and I kick it around in this episode. Justin Giboney is an attorney and political strategist in Atlanta, Georgia. He is also the co-founder and president of the AND Campaign. –––––– PROMOS Save 10% on courses with Kairos Classroom using code TITR at kairosclassroom.com! –––––– Sign up with Faithful Counseling today to save 10% off of your first month at the link:  faithfulcounseling.com/titr or use code TITR at faithfulcounseling.com –––––– Save 30% at SeminaryNow.com by using code TITR –––––– Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out Dr. Sprinkle’s website prestonsprinkle.com Stay Up to Date with the Podcast Twitter | @RawTheology Instagram | @TheologyintheRaw If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review. www.theologyintheraw.com

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw and a happy 4th of July to you. That's what we're going to talk about today. The 4th of July has always been a mixed bag for me. On the one hand, there's many things I really like about America. I think it's a beautiful country, geographically speaking. I love the weather in most parts of the country. I love the multi-ethnic nature of America. The fact that we are a melting pot isn't easy, as we know, but it's also very beautiful. I love our history of immigration. Lots of people from different countries coming into America. I think that's a beautiful thing. And there's many things we can celebrate about the history of America, and yet there's other things that we shouldn't

celebrate, things that we should call out and mourn and lament. Yeah, and yet there's other things that we shouldn't celebrate, things that we should call out and mourn and lament. Yeah, and as Christians, obviously, or it should be obvious, our allegiance is elsewhere. We are exiles living in America. If you are American listening to this, if you're Australian, then you're an exile living in Australia. If you're Canadian, you're an exile living in Canada, and happy Bastille Day to you, whatever that is. So yeah, the 4th of July has always caused me to ask some questions about faith and identity. So that's why I wanted to have my friend Justin Giboney on the show today to talk about the 4th of July. Justin Giboney is an attorney and political strategist in Atlanta, Georgia. He's also the co-founder

and president of the AND Campaign and the co-author of the book Compassion and Conviction, The AND Campaign's Guide to Faithful Civic Engagement. Justin is incredibly wise, very nuanced, and he does have the best voice on theology in Iraq, as you will hear in just a second. So please welcome back to the show, for the second time, the one and only Justin Gibney. All right. Hey, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in Raw. I'm here with Justin Gibney. It's been a couple of years since Justin's been on the show. Last time, Justin, I think it was right after George Floyd when I had you on. Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah. Well, thanks for coming back on. And, you know, it is at least the time this is released, the 4th of July. I want to

get into how Christians should think through any kind of nationalistic celebration, but especially the 4th of July. It's kind of one of the most patriotic day. Well, it is the most patriotic day of the year for Americans. But first, you co-authored this book, Compassion and Conviction. Can you tell us a bit, first of all, when did it actually come out? Oh, this is a couple of years ago. Yeah, it's been out for a little bit. I think it's still relevant. It came out during a very tense time, a very tense political time in the church. We had pastors literally coming to us talking about how folks were fighting in the church based on the election, the 2020 election, all that, well, the 2016 election and all that. And so we were responding to that tense moment, and it just so happens that we're in another tense

political moment that's kind of separating the church. So I think compassion and conviction speaks to how Christians can do, engage in politics and civics in a more faithful way. The yeah, the subtitle is the campaign's guide to faithful civic engagement. Can you tell us just a bit about the end campaign? I love what you guys do. Every time I see anything online, I just feel like your rhetoric, your perspective is so spot on. But yeah, give us a snapshot of what the end campaign does. A few things. So we're trying to, we're trying to, what we'll say, raise civic literacy, help Christians engage in a more informed way, understand the process better. We're also trying to bring about a little more civic pluralism, not theological pluralism, we're orthodox,

but we believe that Christians should be able to engage with people with different beliefs, with a level of respect, and to get some good stuff done. And we see that in the Bible, we see that throughout history. But the other thing that we try to do is help Christians reframe how they see politics. We don't want Christians to engage politics primarily as progressives or primarily as conservatives. We think both of those kind of go in the wrong direction in some instances. And so we want folks to first and foremost look at politics through kind of a biblical lens. And so we will challenge both sides of the conversation because we think they get some things wrong. And we think there's like this false dichotomy in American politics or this false choice where some people, you know, if you want to go to the left, you're for justice, you go to the left and you drop your convictions or you're for moral

order and you go to the right and you drop your compassion. We think compassion and conviction come together. We think justice, social justice and moral order work together. And if you don't have love, you don't have truth. And those things all work together. And so we're trying to say, don't have love, you don't have truth. And those things all work together. And so we're trying to say, and right, love and truth, compassion and conviction, social justice and moral order, and bring those things together in the way that the Bible, in the way that the gospel does. You're speaking my language, man. Every time I hear you talk about politics, I'm like, oh, thank you. So I'm not, at least either we're both crazy or yeah, maybe there's more to it than that. One more quick

personal question before we get into the fourth of july conversation um can you do my next audiobook reading you got like the best radio voice i'd love to i'd love to oh man um all right so um today is the fourth of july uh again we're pre-recording this, but when this comes out, it'll be 4th of July. And Justin and I have talked for about a minute and a half offline about... Actually, I did all the talking, Justin. So this is going to be a genuine good faith conversation. I think we're probably going to say a lot of similar things, I think. That's my guess from what I know about you.

But I really don't know. I don't know how you process the 4th. So yeah, why don't you start? When the 4th of July comes around, what's going on in your mind and heart? How are you processing it? I think it's complicated. I, like many African-Americans, I'm not going to sit here and tell you I never fellowship or fire off fireworks. My sons love fireworks. But it's also done with a level of resignation, understanding the history of this country, understanding that 1776, when all this stuff was going down, my people weren't free. And also understanding that the country hasn't

completely dealt with that and been honest about it. And not only the country, Preston, even the church hasn't completely dealt with that and had kind of a racial reckoning on what has happened. So I don't think it's bad to celebrate some of the exceptional things that America has done or even to feel, you know, feel like this is home and kind of have a godly pride about your home. If that means that we're not thinking about the full history, we're not being honest about what was good and what was bad and bringing that to bear in our conversations and policy and all that, then we are missing something. So when I think of the Fourth of July, it's with a bit of resignation. the full history and make sure that they know what was going on for us at those times, what was going on for others, so that they really understand the dynamics and are not creating some romanticized view of what America was at that time. I mean, as a white guy whose ancestors weren't even here until 100 years ago, I feel similar without the personal investment. Like, yeah, I think that tension you're saying is what I feel.

But it still is – for me, it still is a little bit from a distance. I think for me, if – this is going to sound almost confusing or offensive to some Christians. If I wasn't a Christian, oh, dude, I would be totally patriotic. If I wasn't a Christian, oh, dude, I would be totally patriotic. That would be kind of like my – I would think like a lot of people, that would kind of be my quote-unquote religious identity. You need something, right? You need something to like have meaning and purpose and value. And you can't just be a free-floating human. And the American narrative is very compelling.

I remember growing up watching Be you know, be all you can be marine commercials, you know, and just this, this kind of stoic, steady, marine face, chiseled jaw, hat brimmed down, not going to take crap from anybody, you know, standing up for good, you're the good guy, you're going to fight the bad guys like that. That's a powerful narrative. And if you don't have an alternative narrative that is more beautiful and contradicts that narrative, then of course you're going to get swept up into that. Why? I guess my two-pronged question, it's kind of a why question, but also how do you feel question when on the 4th of July, it's not just your fellow Americans that are all in celebrating, this is my current country, this is my identity. But when you see the church

kind of doing that, how does that make you feel? How do we process that? It's somewhat disappointing. And I think really to me, and I want to be clear, it's the excess, right? I don't think there's anything wrong with saying, hey, this is a holiday. This is something that we can come together around. But when we bring it into the church and you got the flag, like it's almost the cross and you're misrepresenting the history, you're bringing a romanticized history into the church, it's disappointing because we're people of truth. And so even if you're going to recognize some of the good things, this isn't to say you can never recognize the good things. It can't be without the full historical context because we are people of truth. We care about that truth.

And so when I see that missing, what happens is, Preston, is you limit other people's experience, right? And we hurt our ability to change the things we still need to change now. So if we don't have some recognition that, hey, it was in a very, very imperfect state. And I said before, there's some exceptional things America has done in 1776. And for years on, there were some very exceptionally bad things that it was doing. And if there's no recognition of that, if we still have books in Christian schools that aren't clear about what the Civil War was about and who was on the right side and who was on the wrong side of that. And we do, we still have those, we still have books in some

Christian schools, history books that don't express that very clearly. Then there's a bigger problem and we can't fix the problem. So as Christians, we never cling on to something more than we cling on to love and the truth. You mentioned, you know, while we can be celebratory of some of the good things america has done can you let's do what are some of those good things like when you look at american if you objectively just look at the history of america as one of many nations that has a history like what are some things like ah as a secular non-god-fearing nation i mean sorry to burst into this bubble but but it's still a secular nation.

What are some good things? Like, yeah, that contributed to the good of humanity. Yeah. Well, I would say this. I mean, you look at something like the Constitution. When I first see the Constitution, I say, okay, it allowed slavery. It was flawed. But if I dig deeper, too, I also have to say this is a document that was a brilliant document.

Even with its flaws, it was – And so you'll hear this also from Frederick Douglass. It gave, it created, even though it was very flawed, and I'm not undermining that at all, it created the mechanisms to change it, right? To change it and create something that was better. You do see how there were opportunities and innovation and incentives to create innovation in America that you might not see other places. I think we have some inventions and things that came together. I think we have done a lot of work to help people. And we've done some work to hurt people. So to me, it's like a realistic view of here's what's been accomplished.

Here's where we fail. And I think the people who have nothing good to say about America, that's problematic. But if you're going to ignore that, there was no golden age of morality that, you know, some of the things that we're celebrating, there were some dangerous and really terrible things going on at the same time. If we can put those things together and be realistic about it, then cool, we can have a holiday. But if that holiday means, again, a romanticized view of what's going on, that's problematic. So I think there are things that we can say, hey, that's worth celebrating. Us coming together, trying to overcome things like the Great Depression or, you know, or when we did, you know, if we're talking about when freedom finally did come and the people who fought for freedom, the abolitionists and all that stuff, that's worth celebrating. That's

worth having a conversation about. But it's not, it can't be isolated. It has to be a full conversation with a fuller context of history. When you think of something like America or a country, a huge part, I mean, it's land and people, right? Here, I'm not a historian, so I hope I don't say a thing where an actual're always going to be a mix. And yet we have a fallen nature. So it's gonna be a mix of good and bad, you know, and you think about the history of Americans. And I think there can be a lot of beautiful things that were done because you had a bunch of image of God bearing people gathering together and exercising their creativity, their gifts, their talents. You have jazz, you have the Harlem Renaissance. I mean, you have a lot of stuff that's worth saying. Yeah, there was something to that. There was a certain beauty in what was going on in that moment.

And even something like jazz, and you let me know, was jazz situated in a context of a place of oppression or a place of like this is a respite in the midst of all this kind of like just problems going on jazz kind of outlet so so even the even and i don't want to just be a a naive optimist but i mean even the oppressive context shaped not that we endorse that obviously obviously i would never say that but like But even that played a role in producing this music that might not have been able to be produced if it was in a position of power maybe is what I'm getting at. I mean you see – and this is just one area. But if you look at music, any African-American music, most of it in America came from some level of oppression.

And it comes – there's the beauty that only God can create out of some level of kind of oppression. But we can celebrate that beauty, but we can't separate it completely right from that oppression in front of front from the other things that kind of created that. And so that's what I'm getting at you to not find beauty in anything around you. There's a reason that people want to come here. There are opportunities that you don't have. They're not the equity is not always where it needs to be. But I mean, when people compare America to other countries, it's like, well, there is kind of a really unique, it is the melting pot, right? I mean, there is a unique thing here.

There is a reason why there's so many people from other countries wanting to come here. And I think that's very much for immigration. And I think it adds to the character and value of what America is designed to be. So, I mean, even that can be celebrated. The geography is gorgeous, you know. And as Christians, we should celebrate creation.

And anytime you see beauty in creation, we can celebrate that. And America is such an interesting mix. It's not all mountains. It's not all desert. It's not all beaches. It's not all whatever farm. It's everything. We have everything.

desert. It's not all beaches. It's not all whatever farm. It's everything. We have everything. You said to kind of acknowledge the good, but with the bad, we need to be honest and truthful with our history and also acknowledging some of the things that still need to change. And that's something any celebration of the fourth, Christian or non-Christian, needs to be, can't give the impression that we have arrived. The fourth accomplished it. We are independent. We are free. End of story. Let's just waltz into, you know, whatever. What are some things you see now that still need to change that maybe on the fourth, we should even be able to acknowledge here's where we still need to go? Yeah. I mean, one start is the disparities in education. You can talk about the wealth gap just between

races and things of that nature. And so when you look at how many ways African-Americans especially have been held down, it's hard. If you try to maintain this romanticized narrative, you never fix the problems because you're never willing to admit that they were there. And so, I mean, we still can talk about mass incarceration, the fathers taken out of homes due to that. There's still issues. I mean, look, last time we spoke, it was about George Floyd. These things are still happening. And unless your celebration comes with a level of idolatry, should be able to admit right some of those things while at the same time saying there's something here that can make us better this isn't a

celebration of us being perfect of this perfect state that we created this perfect constitution this perfect uh country that we created this is a celebration of some of the ideals and maybe we can do better to reach those in the midst of a historical context where we failed to do so yeah there's still a celebrate to me there's still a celebration in there but it's not the celebration of perfection it's not a celebration of being superior to every other nation that's a difference why so i i mentioned offline a few years ago lecrae on the fourth of july tweeted a picture of a bunch of slaves picking cotton. And he said, these are my ancestors on the 4th, which I thought was provocative, prophetic, true, good. I mean,

beautiful in the sense that it was a true tweet. I was like, ah, that's a great reminder to shut off Twitter and went out, you know, went and ate my hot dog, whatever. Like, then I got back on and people were, I mean, people lost their minds. I, Christians, Christians were really upset. I don't understand. I mean, I kind of understand, I guess. What was wrong with that? Like, I don't. Yeah.

And I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but I mean, I, I'm trying to understand like what, like, maybe it's like, well, we need, there's things to celebrate too or whatever. I'm like, there's yes. And there's also, I don't think we have no problem celebrating the good things. When I walk around the Fourth of July, I see zero concern about making sure we celebrate the good things. What I don't see is maybe a healthy acknowledgement of we can celebrate

the good while acknowledging the bad. But that was really revealing to me. Like, wow, we can't be honest on this day or I don't know. That's the beauty of what Lecrae did in that moment. Within context, what he was doing was creating a contract, creating a contrast that was a social critique that says, OK, you can celebrate this, but you're not acknowledging the other other side of it. And the reason that people get mad about that, I used to wonder, how do you get mad at historical fact? That picture was real, right? That's really what was going on at the time. What's there to get mad about? And you get mad, I finally kind of figured out,

when your identity is tied to the perfection of this country, when your identity is tied to the idea that this country is superior to other folks and that this country, it's an identity thing. So you're wounded. Lecrae's saying, no, this is not perfect. There are things going on, and that's an attack on you because your identity is tied to it. And your identity is tied to it because there's a sort of idolatry there. And so I think what Lecrae did, it was subtle, but it was actually, in a way, very loud in the contrast and social critique that he was kind of laying out no it was it was brilliant i mean he's an artist too that's what artists are supposed to do by definition they

are the prophets of culture so i've heard some people say yes everything we're saying is true it's a mixed bag but every country is not only a mixed bag but has way more oppression than good. Back in the 18th century, I don't know if this is true or not, every country had slavery. It wasn't like America woke up one day and invented it or something. Every country had elites oppressing whatever. And of all the oppression and slavery and bad things going on in the world, America was actually a departure from that. Kind of like how you read the Old Testament and you look at Old Testament laws and they're like, oh my gosh, these look so barbaric and misogynistic. But then you look at Middle Eastern Syrian laws or other ancient Near Eastern laws like, oh, oh my gosh. Okay, so this is still an improvement upon what's going on in the world. I've heard people frame

improvement upon what's going on in the world. I've heard people frame America that way. I don't know enough to say yes or no. I do travel a lot and I do always come back. I had some friends that just came back from Congo. And I don't know if you've been to Congo. You walk the streets of Kinshasa and oh my word, like you come back here and you're like, oh, I can't take another American saying we have like you know a corrupt government or something well maybe but you you don't know what capital c corruption is until you travel the world not every country but a lot a lot of countries what do you say to that that in the historical context america has still always been better than other attempts to you you know, be a nation.

I think that's a little too sweeping. I would say that there are certainly worse places to live. But I would also say that in every category, whether it's culture, politics, I can't say that we're better than every other, you know, every other country on all those, you know, all those terms. There's worse. I'm not one, again, I'm not one of those folks that's going to come, this is terrible. Everything's terrible about America. I can't say that. Too many people

have died, sweat, all this stuff to make America better, to make America something that is something that people in certain places can look to and say, wow, things can be better. I want to be there because things can be better. Too many of my ancestors built this and worked hard to make it better for me not to admit that. I just think that's disrespectful. But there's so much more that can be done. And we're not just superior to every other country. That's not even why we should be in this. Are we making this the best place that it can be, especially for those who are suffering. That's an ongoing thing that we have to do. And we have to be focused. You can't focus on that when you want to pretend everything's always been perfect or when you get offended because somebody brings up the imperfections.

What is that saying about the standard that you're trying to uphold? What are you trying to show people and what do you want them to see that's not real? And I think that's kind of how we have to think about it. So yeah, there's worse places to be. I wouldn't say that America is better on all accounts. We sat here and went through it. I'm sure we find plenty of things where there may be places that get it right or get it better, but we need to focus on the good and the bad and understand that people worked hard to make this into something that I do think there are places that can look up and say, I want to aspire to that. Right, right.

Kind of a different angle, but America has always prided itself on being the most prosperous and the American dream and making a lot of money and getting more comfort in a bigger house and more cars. We're a very consumeristic country, and we're very good at it. That's just in the air. It's in the DNA. I don't know anybody who would deny that. The question is, is that a good or bad?

But if you ask another question, are Americans happier? Are they flourishing because many of them have achieved the American dream? So leaving aside the groups of people that have less access to the American dream, let's just leave all that aside. I just want to challenge maybe the underlying narrative that pursuing, quote, the American dream and even getting it leads to human flourishing. I mean, the studies I've seen on anxiety, depression, suicide, loneliness, addiction. I mean, America, I don't know if it's leading the way. I don't know. But I do know that we are not faring nearly as well in terms of human happiness, I think, than other countries,

even countries that maybe don't have the financial prosperity that we do. So I mean, even that needs to be kind of acknowledged, I think. I don't know. Yeah, sure. I mean, for one, it's prosperity at an expense, right? It wasn't, you know, all this prosperity didn't necessarily come from a good place or from good means, right? So we do need to investigate that. But you're right, the materialism, the consumerism, it eats us alive. It tears families apart. It has us focused on things that are outside of what God has said are good. of what God has said are good. And so, no, I don't think the material, and I'm, and this is, I'm coming from this almost a little bit as a hypocrite because we're consumers too, right? Like we buy into it too. And so I think we could, we can do better. And that's where the church has to come in as well to say, it's not, it's not bad to have things, right? But how are you sharing that? How are you stewarding what you have? And is it an idol? Could you find happiness without these things, all these things that you have? I don't think a lot of us can, and many of

us can't find happiness with them. And that's, again, where the church has to step in and not just go along with the narrative that you're talking about, what life, what the purpose of our life is supposed to be. Are we glorifying God with what we're doing? And oftentimes the answer, I think, would be we're not. Several years ago, I was part of a church that had a strong kind of connection to some Baptist churches in Western Russia, the Smolensk region, which is right outside, in western uh russia the smolensk region which is right outside right next to belarus and uh pretty yeah pretty you know post post uh communism you know and and um we went out there i went out there once the church went through a lot and you know pretty poor not not i've been to definitely poor countries but um you know pretty poor people living very simple lives,

pastors very, very simple. I stayed in the kind of head pastor, kind of the apostolic kind of figure of all these churches, stayed in his house. I mean, it was a two-bedroom, small, 500-square-foot flat. And the bedroom that I was sleeping in, I was like, well, this is a nice bedroom. They gave us this nice bedroom to sleep in. And I found out later that it was the pastor's bedroom they just they give it up for their guests and

they go sleep in the hallway and their kids go sleep down at some neighbor's house when the guest comes over i found out later i'm like wait the pastor's out sleeping in the hallway and i'm in his bed you know and they didn't have hot water so the the wife would you know like boil hot water for baths for us every night you know um i remember sitting one time i was buck naked in the tub and i forgot to lock the door and i hear out the door the hot water she couldn't speak english hot water i'm like no no no the door he did his poor anyway we shipped over uh one of the pastors there to america and took him to i think san francisco maybe it was Monterey.

I don't know, somewhere up in the California coast. And we took him to like a big mall. Like we were going to show him the mall of America, you know, this big mall and all this stuff. And like, so what do you think? And he kind of looked and he goes, we'll never forget. The Russians aren't known for being, you know, for not speaking the truth.

And he kind of looked around and he just said, piles and piles of sin. And he said later, he's like, look, we know it's hard for you guys here. We pray for you. We pray for the American church because they can see that like all this wealth and prosperity in the American dream really runs counter to the gospel narrative and that the church has succumbed to that. And they almost, I almost feel bad. Like we're so sad that you guys keep consuming, consuming, consuming,

and you're cannibalizing yourselves, you know? And so we pray for you. So man, if you had an hour, they said, okay, Justin, you have, it's the 4th of July. We're gathering as a church. You have an hour to give a talk, to help us. How should we, quote, celebrate? How should we spend the 4th of July? What would you do in that hour? This is off the cuff. I should have prepped you on this. I would not. It's good. I would start by probably giving some of the words from frederick douglas and his you know in july i think it was july 5th 1852 he gives this speech what is uh what to the american slave is your fourth of july i would start by quoting that by quoting

what he's saying about where amer was, what America was doing to people who were Americans, who were working and building. I think that's a good place to start. I would also just, you know, I'd also want to have a question and answer and conversation about why we don't admit the negative side of American history. When we do, because some people do, a lot of people aren't going to say, well, this never happened, right? But they're going to be dismissive. They're going to want to move on to the next thing very quickly. Yeah, that was just a, you know, we were in a little bit of a rut there, but then we got to this and then we, you know, and then we had, we had, you know, we had this accomplishment. Can we sit in the historical context, the good, the bad,

and find, and again, then find the beauty? Because I don't necessarily want to stay in the negative either, right? But can we acknowledge the damage that's been done, acknowledge the work that we still have to do, and then find the beauty of aspiring to those ideals that we talked about and realize that they're ideals and not something that we've already reached. I think that's how I would start. I would want to set the historical context. I would want to say where we're at. And then I would want to say with moral imagination, we can reach, get closer to some of these ideals that we talk about as if they're already accomplished. That's great. I got to go back and read that speech again. Maybe I'm going to read that with my kids. They haven't read that. I it a while ago and yeah it's super gosh super powerful and it's not hopeless either right like yeah you know sometimes we get into that space where it's like everything's terrible and this is but it's it's a challenge yeah i don't i going back i know we've kind of said it but like people that are they paint america in the worst possible light

i do again i do find that they've oftentimes have never been outside of america um and for me it really is it really is a faith tension for me it is the allegiance that the the tribalism and the elitism, like America first, America is the best, and China is our enemy, or this person's our enemy. And I just don't, as a Christian, I have to separate my identity from that war. That's not my war. It'd be no different than if I was born, happened to be born 600 miles north of me, and now happened to be born in it happened to be born 600 miles north of me and i'm a now or happened to be born in canada like i would celebrate bastille day the same way like yeah this is the country that was born in um in my exile like this is what they do it's part of the part of being a good citizen is kind of being like i don't know in tune with the history of the nation i was born into you know pray for

my leaders whatever but in terms of my identity and my allegiance, that's far elsewhere, man. And I think that's where for Christians, I think that's where it really needs to be separated. And you know what's scary is... And no judgment on people that do, but I don't pledge the allegiance. And I stand, I'll take my hat off, and I put my hat behind my head, and I give respect, but not allegiance. To me, that's the line. I can't give allegiance. National Anthem, you know, when I pledge allegiance, I try to recite the Lord's Prayer instead of the Pledge of Allegiance. And when I'm in certain Christian environments, it's the first time. Like, I'm not really scared.

I typically don't feel, like, scared. Those are the times where I'm like, oh, my word, if somebody kind of knew. In fact, I was in a Christian environment once, and a guy was, like, almost, like, so visibly angry because he was looking at other people that weren't standing or they weren't they weren't putting their hand over their heart and which i wasn't but he wasn't looking at me he was looking at somebody else and i was like oh my

word if he actually saw me right now he he would he would he might swing i don't know like i don't but that that's eerie that i would feel a slight tinge of, I'm going to say persecution, but of, I don't know. Yeah. I mean, I think it sounds like you just don't want to be offensive, right? And some people find it offensive not to give that full allegiance. And I think where they're coming from, to be fair, is usually what I've heard people say is people died for the, you know, folks went out and gave their lives for this. And that's true. But does that should that cause you to be upset with somebody who doesn't show allegiance and, you know, show appreciation in the same way? Right. It's the same conversation about somebody who kneels to make a point. You know, you had the Kaepernick stuff, you had all that. That doesn't mean that folks have no appreciation for somebody who gave their life for this.

That means there's another issue that needs to be pointed out. And unless again, we're in that space where we can only admit the stuff that we want to see, the stuff that's good and not see the other stuff, then that should be okay. There should be room for that. So the guy that says, man, he looks at you, you're not pledging allegiance, you don't have your hand over your heart. The best thing for him to do is not to get mad at you and maybe to have a conversation with you and say, hey man, this is why I do it. I just want to know what you were feeling at this moment. Because guess what? You're not praying. You're not praying to God, right? You're not you're not you're not worshiping God in that moment. People can have differences in how they and how they express themselves or what they decide to hold back. That's the difference between being healthy

with how you kind of view your country if you have a kind of godly pride about it and being unhealthy and how you treat others and making it an idol the whole like people died for this that that oh if anybody's tempted to say that you got to be real careful that no native americans are around when you say that you know americans died to make it like, really? Really? Like, yeah, people did die to a lot of people died. But I don't know. Yeah, I hear what you're saying.

I mean, that's that's that's an excellent point. I think that'd be a good counter to what that person's saying. I think when it's been a family member or you're just think again, it's it's being so a part of the narrative that you can't pull yourself out to see everything i don't think it's wrong to say hey man my brother went and he did it for his the women and children in this country right um i don't think it's bad for somebody to be attached to that because that does mean you know that does mean something however to your point historically a lot of people died for the wrong reasons and the wrong way in this country as well. It's got to be a conversation.

I would frame it the same way that if I was a Jewish exile in Babylon and I didn't celebrate, I don't know, a statue that was erected to celebrate the country and a Babylonian turned to me and said, don't you know that Babylonians killed the Syrians to make this, to establish the Babylonian empire. Don't you know that we fought off the Persians? I'm like, no, there's certain virtues that led people to that, no doubt. Look, my dad was a Marine, my uncle was a Marine, my grandpa was a Marine, and I've got friends in the, so there's virtue there. It takes a lot of courage. No doubt there's virtue there. It takes a lot of courage. No doubt there's virtue there. There's also amazing, amazing virtues among same-sex couples. Gay friends that are married and they love each other, they sacrifice, they have a heart for the vulnerable.

I can celebrate all those virtues. It doesn't mean the core thing I necessarily agree with. So, boyfriends and girlfriends could be sleeping together. There's all kinds of things. There can be a mixed bag of good and bad. I saw military people. They're super courageous. If I was in a dark alley, I'd want one by my side. That doesn't mean the whole project, the thing that is being killed for and dying for, I need to be on board with. That's cool.

I mean, because one of the things when we talk about this kind of Christian nationalism is the assumption that every battle America gets into or has gotten into that we were right. Right? That we were – and that's the assumption, and you got to go with that or you're wrong. and there's, I don't think we can do that as Christians. We can't make that assumption. We really have to examine why we're in this, what's the cost, and what's the impact on other people's lives. So yeah, those are some of the things, those assumptions, and I get where it comes from. It comes from this grand narrative that we've been talking about, but it's not something that we can do and remain faithful Christians. Again, I don't know. I don't think it's necessarily faithful to be completely negative and not realize that people have made sacrifices, right?

And not realize the benefits that you might have, even if it's a mixed bag. But I would just say, don't lean to any side too heavily. Just examine it with an eye towards truth and also with having enough grace to understand, yeah, people in other times messed up too. And what are you doing to mess up, right? That's good, man. So what are you doing on the 4th? What are you doing today? So I will be in Chicago. I'll be with my sons and my wife, probably have some barbecue and just be with family with the fellowship.

Like I said before, I think as a lot of African-Americans, we may make the best out of it with a level of resignation. And, you know, me and my sons will probably have a conversation about the Frederick Douglass speech as well and try to find the beauty, even in something that is more complicated than some would like to admit. Is that fairly common when African-Americans get together? Is it kind of a mixed tone? Is that fairly common? I mean... I think it is a mixed tone. I think you're just celebrating something different, right? It's a holiday, you're coming together, you're with family, but I don't think it's as much about the patriotism side of things. Right. So so it's different. But I know a lot. I'd be lying to if I said no, but we never celebrate. We don't get together. That's just not the truth.

Well, Justin, I know you got to run here in a couple of minutes. So thank you so much for coming on Theology Raw. I know I asked you kind of last minute to do this. I just I wanted to get somebody that I knew was thoughtful and knowledgeable and wasn't going to give just kind of a simplistic kind of response. So I love your perspective, man. And many blessings to you and the end campaign. Just anything I could do to support you guys. Let me know you guys, you guys rock. It's always a pleasure, Preston. Thanks for having me, bro. All right. Have a good one. Thank you.