Theology in the Raw - S9 Ep999: #999 - Is GenZ Bored with Church? Dr. Kara Powell

Episode Date: August 15, 2022

Dr. Kara E. Powell is Chief of Leadership Formation, Executive Director of the Fuller Youth Institute, and Professor of Youth and Family Ministry at Fuller Theological Seminary. She has a B.A. from Stanford, an MDiv from Bethel Theological Seminary, and a Ph.D. from Fuller Theological Seminary. Named by Christianity Today as one of “50 Women to Watch,” Kara is the author or coauthor of Faith in an Anxious World (2020), Growing with (2019), 18 Plus (2018), Growing Young (2016), 10 StickyFaith books or curriculum (2011–2016), Right Click (2015), Can I Ask That? 2: More Hard Questions about God and Faith (2015), Essential Leadership: Training Onramps for Your Youth Ministry Team (2010), Deep Justice Journeys (2009), Good Sex Youth Ministry Curriculum(2009), Deep Justice in a Broken World (2008), Deep Ministry in a Shallow World(2006), Help! I’m a Woman in Youth Ministry (2004), and Mirror, Mirror (2003). In this conversation, Kare and I talk about the GenZ, youth culture, youth ministry, and why GenZ Christians are getting bored with church and how we can keep them connected not just to some institutional church, but connected to a vibrant Jesus-following community.  https://karapowell.com/about/   If you would like to support Theology in the Raw, please visit patreon.com/theologyintheraw for more information!  –––––– PROMOS Save 10% on courses with Kairos Classroom using code TITR at kairosclassroom.com! –––––– Sign up with Faithful Counseling today to save 10% off of your first month at the link:  faithfulcounseling.com/theology –––––– Save 30% at SeminaryNow.com by using code TITR –––––– Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out Dr. Sprinkle’s website prestonsprinkle.com Stay Up to Date with the Podcast Twitter | @RawTheology Instagram | @TheologyintheRaw If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review. www.theologyintheraw.com

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in a Raw. My guest today is the one and only Dr. Kara Powell. Kara leads the Fuller Youth Institute. She has a PhD from Fuller Seminary, an undergrad degree in child and youth development at Stanford University. She has written or co-written several books. The most recent book is Three Big Questions That Change Every Teenager. She's also the author of Growing With, Growing Young, Sticky Faith Guide for Your Family, and many other incredibly helpful resources. Kara is kind of the one of, if not the leading Christian leaders when it comes to understanding younger people,

in particular Gen Z. So please welcome to the show for the first time, the one and only Dr. Cara Powell. What's your moniker that people describe you as? Are you like the just like youth culture expert? Or I know you probably don't use that term for yourself. Well, I'd probably just go with Kara, actually. So we can just go with that, Preston. That would be my first choice. Struggling Christian, trying to keep it together. Well, I wanted to have you on, I mean, for various reasons.

For one, I've got four Gen Z kids. We talked offline, 19, 17, 15, 13. And I do work with youth to some extent. Yeah, I just have a huge, huge heart for the next generation. And I understand older people sometimes are real frustrated at Gen Z. Oh, they're so entitled and they want to be famous by 21 and all this. What are they, YouTube? What are they doing? But I love how you you I think you acknowledge the challenges, obviously, but you have a very positive like, man, let's harness the energy and passion from this next generation. So let me let me lead with this question. How would you describe Gen Z maybe against the backdrop of millennials, like some similarities, maybe some differences?

similarities, maybe some differences. Like if someone said, what is Gen Z? Like what is that as a group of people? What's your kind of two minute overview of that group of people? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And fantastic question, Preston. And I'm also quite busy with teenagers and young adults in our home. Dave and I, we have three, two college students who are 21 and 19, and then a 16 year old. So I'm very much living the life of young people. First, I would say let's start by defining Gen Z. And we roughly define it at the Fuller Youth Institute as those born after 2000, you know, plus or minus a few years. So it's really today's teenagers, whereas millennials are generally those who are somewhere between 20 and 40. And you're right that there are some similarities between millennials and Gen Z.

We spent a lot of time recently trying to distill if we could describe Gen Z in just a few adjectives, what would it be? And so we came up with three adjectives, one of which I think is in common with millennials, but two are somewhat unique for Gen Z. So I'll tell you the three adjectives. First, the one that's common with Gen Z and those who are older than 20, 21, 22 are this is an adaptive generation. I mean, this is a creative, resilient, entrepreneurial. I want to change the world. I want to be involved in God's justice work. I want to see God's kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven. So we love, first of all, how adaptive and purposeful both teenagers and 20-somethings and even 30-somethings are. Here, let me talk about the two adjectives that I do think have

a unique manifestation with Gen Z. First, and this just about the two adjectives that I do think have a unique manifestation with Gen Z. First, and this just breaks my heart, they are an anxious generation. When you look at what's happening with mental health, I mean, it's affecting all generations to be sure, but our young people are walking around really struggling with anxiety, depression, stress, even suicidal ideation. So I would say this is an anxious group or cohort of teenagers. It was that way even before the pandemic and the pandemic. I mean, according to the CDC overall for generations, anxiety has tripled and depression has quadrupled during the pandemic. So this is an anxious generation. And then I would say another adjective that's unique about this generation, this is a diverse generation. I mean, this is arguably the most diverse generation we've ever had in the U.S. I mean, if you just look at racial

and ethnic diversity, in 2020, in the midst of everything that happened in 2020, we crossed an important line, according to U.S. census data. And now those under 18 are half of young people of color and half young people who are white. So if we look at the country as a whole, half of those under 18 are wonderful young people of color and half are wonderful young people who are white. And so I think that's something to really celebrate. I celebrate that as a person who's white, just the amazing diversity in our country. So anxious, adaptive, diverse, those are the three adjectives, two of which are unique for this gen. With half being of color, are a lot of them too, like from mixed ethnic parents? Is that probably a high percentage? Absolutely. Yeah. I don't have the

data right at my fingers, but multicultural, biracial young people are on the rise. And that's one of my favorite conversations to have with young people when I feel like I get to know them well enough, where if they do have all sorts of ancestries and cultures coming together, you know, I love to ask them, well, do you feel more black or do you feel more white? And, and hear them unpack that, uh, is, is a really wonderful way I found to connect with young people and understand their identity. So yes, we're, we're seeing more and more, uh, increasingly diverse, increasingly multiracial kids today. Let me, so this is going to is gonna i guess go deep really quick but like you know obviously since 2020 i mean it should have been since you know 1920 but

2020 brought out a lot of racial kind of questions and the church is very divided over things like you know you start talking about race and you get accused of being a marxist and crt this and nobody knows what they're talking about and you have news outlets tugging at our emotions and stuff. And our young people are Gen Z. I mean, extra sensitive and eager to have more and maybe better conversations about race. Like I'm asking the question, like a church that says, Oh yeah, we don't want to, we're not going to touch that. Are they losing younger people when they don't really discuss questions of race? Yeah, 100%. I mean, if you look at what's happening with young people, I think they often don't see the church as relevant or kind are the two adjectives I like to

use. And part of why they don't see the church as relevant is because it's not as ethnically diverse as the community they live in. And by the way, I think that's a pretty good criteria to ask ourselves as those of us who are leaders, like, is our faith community, is our church as ethnically diverse as the community in which we live? And if not, then what do we want to do about it? So yeah, I would say pursuing racial justice, it's not just an expectation for most young people today. It's a mandate. They want to be part, they demand to be part of communities that are pursuing that. And I think that's really a wonderful thing,

because I think racial reconciliation is part of what it means to be a growing follower of Jesus. So Preston, I was listening to a podcast a couple of days ago, and if I mentioned the podcast, you would know it and probably even know the pastor. And he was saying, well, you know, at our church, we're talking about race quite a bit because young people demand it. And on the one hand, I think, great. But on the other hand, that's actually not the number one reason. And I know, given your love for Scripture, that that's not the number one reason. I want churches to be mindful and thoughtful and proactive in seeking racial justice. It's because just as God reconciles us to Himself through Jesus Christ, God reconciles us to each other. And that includes a cross race.

One of the best witnesses we in the church can show the world is when we are building relationships with people who are different than us. And so, so I would say fundamentally starts with theology. The good news for those of us who I want to be extra mindful of younger folks is it also aligns with the heart cry of young people. So I'm a hundred, a hundred percent in agreement with that. And I, you know, um, yeah, it took me a while to get there, but, but it, it, once you kind of open your eyes to scripture and, and, and what themes are specifically talking about, you know, ethnic tensions, ethnic reconciliation, it's just a huge thread woven throughout the biblical storyline. Like this is

not, I just recorded a podcast raising the question, is ethnic reconciliation, you know, I think I even said like part of the gospel just to be, you know, provocative, but I kind of answer, yeah. I mean, there's, yeah. When Peter was separating himself from Gentiles and recreating these divisions, Paul said, you are not walking according to the truth of the gospel because you're erecting barriers of ethnic reconciliation. I that statistic too is fascinating, the 50%, because this is no longer just kind of some issue kids are interested in out there or, hey, I have a couple of friends that are of color. Like we're now speaking to a very, very ethnically diverse group.

That's fascinating. Yeah. Well, and I love the scripture verse that you just pointed us to. I can even go more fundamentally to the two greatest commands, right? Love God. And then secondly, love our neighbors as ourselves. And, you know, for me to love my neighbor means building a relationship with people who are different than me. And sometimes it takes more time and sometimes it can be awkward and there can be misunderstandings. But I think that in the midst of how polarized our world is, it breaks my heart that churches are often as polarized, if not more polarized than the world around us. But if we could be bright spots of people who are building relationship across gender, across race, across generation. I think I've seen with churches that that's really magnetic for all generations, but especially

young people. You, so yeah, I mean, churches have become so divided over the last couple of years. I mean, oh my word, it's been, it's been a nightmare. How has that affected youth and youth ministry? Because in my experience, it's typically not the youth leaders and youth that are the ones participating in this kind of taking sides necessarily. That might be too absolute of a statement, but it's more the church as a whole that is. How has that affected youth? Does that really turn them off the church as a whole?

Yeah, I'm glad you raised that question. And I always try to make sure, clear press, Preston, when I have data for answers and when I don't, I do not have data for tensions for parents who are struggling to connect with their church that they feel like has either swung more conservative or swung more progressive. And they're trying to do what's best for their kids. And so to your point, a lot of times youth ministries are somewhat protected from the division and conflict among adults. And so it's leaving a lot of parents scratching their heads, you know, and trying to prioritize, which I affirm, like, what is the best faith community for my kid in this season? And I would say to every parent, like, prioritize your kid's faith formation. You know, we as parents, we can grow in other ways.

We can listen to great sermons online. We can experience worship. We can be in small groups with other believers, you know, across churches, et cetera. I recommend to parents, put your own church preferences in the back seat and put what's best for your kids' faith formation in the front seat, you know, until they at least graduate from high school. So I'm hearing quite a bit of parents filled with angst and trying to prayerfully discern what is best for my kid in this season. And I want to support that. That's affirming for me, I guess, because we've, I don't know, parenting, just trying to be a Christian and then trying to be a parent and then also trying to disciple your kids, let alone just keep them alive. These are impossible tasks in our experience. And

maybe it's my kids, but maybe it's not. I don't know. And I wouldn't say this publicly, but... But you kind of are. It might be offensive. There's been times when our kids can just sit through a church service and just be so bored just bored like is this what christianity is i'm like no this is it's more than this it's like well but this is kind of the main thing this this church is all about just sunday services and if i'm bored with this and what else like well there's small groups you can be a part of you know like and i've had to literally and i don't i don't know how to say this i don't you know this is just my story maybe it's not everybody's but i've had to there's been times when like being in church or church environments is pushing my kids away from

jesus like when i come home we talk about jesus they're excited they want to engage have hard questions and and and then we when we go to like a church environment it's almost like they're like oh well this is Christianity. I don't know if I'm interested anymore. I'm like, oh my gosh, I got to get them out of church. Otherwise, they might lose their faith, you know. Yeah, yeah. And I would never name a church, whatever.

And I think well-intended, amazing people, godly people. There's loads of people that love that, you know. So it's not, this is very much a very subjective kind of thing. subjective kind of thing. But that's a weird tension when it's like, should I go to church this Sunday or go to this church or try this at the risk of hindering my kids' faith? Is that, I mean, are kids bored with church? Or I mean, kids are always going to be bored of church, right?

Or is that, or no, is that an excuse that we've told ourselves for all these years? Well, a lot of thoughts come to mind, Preston. Thank you so much for your authenticity. These are certainly questions that Dave, my husband, I wrestled with too. You know, I think my first thought is church isn't about Sunday worship. It's about relationships. So for me, that is the primary goal as a parent.

I'll speak autobiographically. For me, the primary goal in connecting with the church with my kids is how are they developing relationships, especially with adults, but also with peers that are going to model and stimulate their relationship with Jesus. And I think sometimes we as parents, we have to be proactive about that. So our 16-year-old's going to summer camp in a couple weeks, and I reached out to our youth pastor and said, hey, I think our daughter's at a really important point in her journey with Jesus, and so can you tell me who her camp counselor might be? And our youth pastor was wonderfully open.

He said, here are a couple options. And I said, any of those are great, wonderful. And I hung up the phone and it was my way as a parent of just being a little proactive about the relationships for Jessica, our 16 year old. And part of why Dave and I felt like we needed to do that is because for a lot of kids, including our youngest, the pandemic has been harder to build adult relationships. You know, she's been a part of a small group by Zoom and all that, but it just is not the same as meeting in our back patio, which is where her small group was meeting before they were meeting in our house. And, you know, being on the trampoline together and having brownies together

and all that, Zoom just isn't quite the same, especially for teenagers. So we're actually feeling in our family like we need to be even more proactive with adult relationships for Jessica because of what she lost during the pandemic. So I would say, first of all, church isn't about an entertaining Sunday service. It's about relationships. The second thing I would say is what comes to mind is a founder of Young Life, Jim Rayburn, said it's a sin to bore a kid with the gospel. Now, you know, that was perhaps hyperbolic, but I do think it's an interesting

question for churches, like how engaged are 13-year-olds in our worship service? And what can we change for them to be more engaged? And my hunch is if we were creating worship services that were engaging for 13-year-olds, 43-year-olds and 63-year-olds would also be more engaged. So I do think, you know, young people can be a bit of a canary in the coal mine for us to ask ourselves, like, how vital are our community worship experiences? How can we involve all generations in planning, in the actual worship, et cetera? So those are just a couple of thoughts. Let's focus on relationships. And at the same time, you know, if 13-year-olds are struggling, well, then, you know, let's not use, well, this is church.

They're going to be bored as an excuse to be sloppy or lazy in our own creativity and innovation. Right. No, that's good. You use a phrase, I want to highlight it, building relationships with older people, especially, and also peers. I think that intuitive assumption is it's the opposite. They need peer, peer, peer, peer, peer. And hey, it'd be cool if an adult kind of poured into them, but that's not the priority. Are you saying that the priority is adult relationships with our kids? I would say that based on our research. Both are important. It's like, do I need my left hand or my right hand more? I need both hands. So both

are important. But when we look at the data we've done, including our sticky faith study, where we looked at 13 different youth group participation variables and looked at how that was correlated with mature faith in high school and college, you know, you and listeners will be glad to know studying scripture was correlated with mature faith, serving and being involved in justice work correlated with mature faith. But of everything that we looked at, what was most correlated with mature faith was intergenerational worship and relationships. And I think as we've professionalized youth ministry, we've ended up segregating, and that's not a verb I use lightly, segregating young people from the rest of the church. And so no wonder they graduate and they know their

youth pastor, but they don't know the overall church. They know youth group on Sunday mornings, but they don't know overall church worship. And so that's one of our consistent messages out of, gosh, the last 12 years of research, Preston, is how do we bring all the generations together more? Now, there are certainly times where, you know, I want my 16-year-old to be with other 16-year-olds talking about life stage issues for sure. But one of my life mantras is that balance is something we swing through on our way to the other extreme. And I think in our well-intentioned efforts to offer relevant programming for teenagers, we've siloized them. And what I love, another theme in our research, Preston, is while a lot of our research has basically been geared to look at how does the church change young people, we've seen as we study how churches change young people, how young people change churches.

So it's really all generations who benefit. I mean, I'm biased here, but I can't think of a better way to have a vibrant relationship with Jesus than to hang out with a 17-year-old who has a vibrant relationship with Jesus. And so all generations benefit when we bring all generations together. That's so good. when we bring all generations together. That's so good. I can, again, anecdotally, I can think of a small handful of adults that have, even when we have them over,

like they ask our kid questions. And if our kid falls into teenage mode, like one short answer, they'll keep at that. They're not going to let that, they're really interested in my kids. They know their names, they know their birthdays,

but that's rare. Like we've, we've, we've been to lots of churches. Right. And there's been times where we'll maybe be at a church for six months or a year. And if our kid doesn't show up, no, not a, no adult would even notice like don't take any interest. And it's like, you know, I don't want to force it. Like if you don't notice, but if my kid's invisible to you then whatever i'm not i'm gonna like force you to like like my kid or even take an interest in them but like that's just not

that doesn't come natural does it the majority of christian adults aren't gonna and i myself that get it like i've been guiding myself there's loads of other people's kids that come by and i'm like i don't i got four of my own i I'm trying to figure out. You almost have a basketball team at home. Just so I get it. Well, and, you know, my my recommendation. And again, Dave and I did this, you know, six or eight weeks ago with our. The good news is we don't have to keep adult relationships a secret from our kids. We can talk with our kids and hear from them what adults they want to get

to know. And so sure enough, you know, when school ended six, eight weeks ago, Dave and I sat down with Jessica and said, you know, largely because of the pandemic, you just don't quite have the adult relationships that you know we want you to have. And so what adults would you like to get to know a little bit better? And she rattled off a few. And so she doesn't know this, but I reached out. I feel comfortable saying this on this podcast. I reached out to one of them and said, hey, Jessica mentioned that you're an adult. She'd really like to get to know better. Would you be open to connecting with her sometime? And so sure enough, that wonderful person at church reached out to Jessica and took her and another friend out for Boba. And they're, you know, kind of slowly, step by step, building a relationship with each other.

So, you know, I think we as parents, step parents, guardians, grandparents, aunts, uncles, you know, we can ask teenagers, who are some adults you'd like to get to know better? And then we can, you know, kind of proactively and maybe secretly try to stimulate some of those relationships. I tell you, when my kids were younger, I'd ask those questions. And then those were our babysitters, like the adults we wanted to get to know better when Dave and I needed to go out, like that's who we'd invite over to take care of our kids. So, you know, there's ways to turn the dial a little bit as parents and step-parents to help our kids have those relationships. Here's some, I don't know, like an illustration for your research.

As you're talking, it made me think, like the church we're currently at, all my kids, maybe for the first time, really, they're like, we all really like our church. And it's largely because the pastors talk to my kids like the lead pastor who's like i he's like 40 i mean young cool guys great personality you know he will come off stage it's not it's not a huge church maybe maybe 2000 or something uh which isn't it's big for idaho but it's's not like for Texas, it's like a house church or something, you know?

So, but he's got a lot of people, you know, but he will single out one of my kids and genuinely not like, Hey, I know I'm supposed to ask this kid, you know, but like, Hey, so did you see the last, the latest episode of a stranger things or something? And they start getting into it. And my kids will say, Oh, I want to be a, I want to be in church service today. And I can think of like three or four pastors that they genuinely notice and take an inch. And they actually do. I think they genuinely like my kids, I think. I mean, maybe they're listening and saying, no, I'm just doing ministry. But that has been probably the single thing when my kids talk about church that comes up.

Number one, oh, I like that church, you know, because so-and-so is normal. He talks to me, you know. That's huge. Yeah. Kids will put up with mediocre programming. Yeah. Kids will even put up with some theological issues with which they disagree. You know, a very common dynamic is that kids are

more progressive than parents. And so, you know, that church that families have grown up with can feel conservative when that kid hits 13, 15, 17. But, you know, I've seen kids even put up with that if there are relationships that are that glue. So, you know, I would say relationships triumph over anything else. And, you know, I would say relationships triumph over anything else. And, you know, in our growing young research where we actually looked at churches that were doing amazing work with teenagers and young adults, one senior pastor said, for young people today, warm is the new cool. Warm is the new cool. And by the way, my, my kids say that even just the way I say cool betrays that I am not cool. So somewhere my, my three kids are all kind of rolling their eyes and they don't

know why. But just because I get that all the time. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That I said that, but for young people, like we just see this time and time again in our research, it's not about a cool facility. It's not about, you know, the best worship slides. It's not about the best programming. It's about relationships. And, you know, whether it's a 72 year old who makes them feel at home, a senior pastor, a small group leader, whoever it might be, it's relationships that are the glue. My, my, again, this is just anecdotal. And my, my kids are, you know, I guess unique, I guess all kids are unique, unique, but if you hung out with my kids, you know what I mean? They would be skeptical if something was too polished.

If they came in and everything was too polished, they'd be like, what are you hiding? Yeah, yeah. And I think that's part of the disconnect. I was just visiting a church in another city this weekend. And the worship service, it felt like 80s youth ministry. Like smoke machine, smog machine, and all this kind of stuff. And I just thought, this is working with these people, but that's not the majority. Usually young people want something that feels more like being in a living room than being in a theater. And so how do we get away from performance?

I think that's an interesting question. Does our church feel more in a theater. And so how do we get away from performance? I think that's an interesting question. Does our church feel more like a theater or more like a living room or a family room? And how do we, how do we move more toward family room? That's great. Yeah, that's so good. And so I feel like our kids, does just this generation have more and deeper and more difficult questions or is that true of every generation? Because like my kids, like my kids have so many deep questions. And like, I know they would be incredibly turned off if they didn't have space to ask questions. But is that always, has that always been there? Is it more with this generation? Well, I, it's hard for me to compare. I don't know of any

research that per se that compares that. But if I wanted to make the argument that this generation has even more or deeper questions, I will say they're exposed to so much. I mean, thanks to the technology they carry around with them. You know, my kids know so much of what's happening in the world, which I would say, again, gives us an amazing opportunity as parents and mentors to go deep with kids, you know, in the midst of summer 2020 after George Floyd's murder and all three of our kids were home. It was the pandemic. Our son even came home from college or two daughters were doing online school, et cetera. And so we had way more time with them than normal, which was really wonderful actually. But most nights at dinner for, you know, the month or two

after George Floyd's murder, I would start the conversation or Dave, my husband would start the conversation by saying, so what'd you guys see on social media today about race? And boom, like that, that just opened all sorts of questions and comments. And I love that. It sounds like Preston and from what I know about you, this would totally be the case, that you want to have that kind of dialogue with your kids. One of the biggest, I would say, surprises out of our Sticky Faith research is that we often assume doubts or tough questions are bad, and it's a sign that faith is disintegrating or deconstructing, etc. that faith is disintegrating or deconstructing, et cetera. What we found is that when young people have the opportunity to express their doubts with someone, that's actually correlated with greater faith maturity. So it's not doubt or tough questions that erodes faith. It's silence that erodes faith. And so, you know,

I think for adults, as we're interacting with kids, whether it's somebody in our family or whether it's a neighbor or someone at our church, you know, for us to say periodically, some of the questions I like to ask my kids are, you know, if you could ask God any question, what would it be? And they often have some really great questions. Another thing that I like to ask, and this is scarier, but I want to make things discussable, is to say to my kids, and we often do this like if we're driving or I'm taking them out for coffee, one-on-one, whatever it might be, what do you no longer believe that you think I still believe? And what do you now believe that you think I don't believe? And, you know, I kind of hold my breath when I ask these questions,

because I never know what my kids are going to say. And sometimes they're like, I think, you know, nothing's really changed since the last time we talked. And other times, you know, there are there are multiple issues where they're shifting. And I actually got these questions from my friend and colleague, Steve Argue, who's just such a thoughtful parent. And what I love about the questions is they show that faith is changing, that it's okay for our faith to change, which is we have this odd view about faith. Like we want faith to grow, but we don't our faith to change, which is we have this odd view about faith. Like we want faith to grow, but we don't want it to change, which doesn't make sense, right? And so, so grow means.

Yeah, exactly. So, you know, faith is a noun, but it's also a verb. And so as a verb, it's, it's ever unfolding and changing. And I want my kids to be able to talk with me about those issues. And, you know, I will say a theme in my, in, in those answers with my kids over the last handful of years, it's generally cultural issues where they're more progressive than me and getting more and more progressive still. And, and, and, you know, my goal as I follow up on those, you know, where they are, where they are thinking differently than me is not to convince them, but I try to use phrases like, well, I'm curious. I find I'm curious as such a great sentence starter with young people. I'm curious, how does your belief on X relate to what you think Scripture says or relate to this verse in scripture or relate to,

you know, something else that's important to you. So like, I'm curious, my, my goal isn't to convince my kids it's to understand and to have a good conversation and to keep them thinking. All of that. I found that true a hundred percent. I think we, before we even go there to kind of 100 i think we before we even go there to kind of facilitate honest questions we need to have created an environment where they feel safe to even ask these questions right because our kids are you know fear of speaking out loud fear of looking stupid fear of saying something in your question that might be wrong is this wrong for me to ask this question it's like so we need to cultivate a fertile environment right where they feel safe asking any question even if my even if my answer they don't buy my answer yeah like you know that

that's i i've used this i've talked about my one of my daughters a few times in the podcast but she's just very enneagram five just deep thinker reads a ton and high high bs meter genuine faith but high b you know every every couple weeks we'll meet for chips and salsa and she has lists of some of the most profound theological questions awesome half of them i've never even heard of before and that's that's all that's what i've done for the last 25 years is answer people's theological you know like i'm like how have i never heard this question and you know sometimes i'll give an answer and she's like oh you know what that totally makes sense and other times i'll give an answer and she's like i can see her you know she she doesn't say anything i'm like you don't buy it dude she's like no no not yet i'm like that's okay that's

totally okay yeah i'm like i'm not sure i buy it but that's kind of like here's one response and other times when i say, I don't know, I feel like her respect for me goes up. Now, if I said, I don't know about everything, she's like, well, what do you know? You know, like, but there's times like, you know what? I don't know the answer to that. I'm going to think about that. Is that cool? She's like, yeah, cool. You know? Yeah. I love, I think I don't know is so powerful. And sometimes we recommend, I don't know, but, and the but is, but like you just said, but can I think about it and get back to you? Or, but I know you're asking great questions

about faith and science that I don't, I can't resolve, but I know somebody else at our church, what if we have her over for dinner? Or, you know, I don't know, but here's what I have found to be true about God. So there's no way that we can explain everything about God, period. So let's relieve ourselves of that expectation, folks. Like, if we could explain everything about God, then God wouldn't be God. God would be just kind of a cool guy, you know, a cool person. So there's no way. And so, you know, let's have freedom to not have all the answers, but that to have that phrase, I don't know, but in our hip pocket, when young people start asking us tough questions

is a great kind of conversation continuer that lets you take a next step and regroup a little bit, do some study, talk to others, reflect on your own faith, and then reengage with your own person. You've kind of, I guess it's kind of, you've sort of answered it along along the way here but like are gen z as they get out of the house are they leaving the church at a higher rate since it's gen z we don't know if they're coming back because we haven't got there yet they're not 30 yet but are they leaving the church at a higher rate and if and whether the answer is yes or no it doesn't really matter for the second question that's the second question is why the ones that are leaving, why were the main reasons why they're leaving?

Yeah, I would say, yes, they are leaving at a higher rate. There's some data from previous generations that about 50 percent return to the faith and to the faith community when they have kids. And hopefully that will happen. Part of the problem, though, is that people are getting older when they're getting married and or having kids. And so if we think about it, those ruts of life decisions are getting deeper and deeper before that 28-year-old is having kids. And so we don't quite know if they'll return as they have in the past. I think I mentioned this earlier, Preston, but as I was thinking about this very question recently, the words relevant and kind were the ones that I think summarize so much of what young people are disappointed with in the church. It's not relevant. They don't

feel like they're talking about the issues that matter most to young people. Springtide Research Institute, a research center that I have great respect for, just did some data on this. And, you know, the causes that young people care about, like the environment, like race, like immigrant rights, like gender equality, et cetera, They don't see the nearest church or their church prioritizing. So that's where it can feel irrelevant. And, you know, for those issues, those aren't just, quote, issues, end quote, for young people. Those are people. It's very personal for them because they're real persons who they know are involved.

And so it's not relevant. And then the church is not a kind or a loving place. Again, I'll quote Springtide's data. They did a study of 13 to 25-year-olds a year into the pandemic here in the U.S. And only 10% of 13 to 25-year-olds heard from an adult who's a faith leader during the first year of the pandemic. Only 10% of 13 to 25 year olds heard from any leader from any faith, not just Christian, but Jewish, Islamic, et cetera. Only 10%, only one out of 10. That's appalling that in our country, 90%, at least of this sample, didn't hear from an adult in the faith community.

And when they separated out and looked at, okay, which of those young people were actually in a faith community? How many of them heard from an adult? It was hardly any better. It was 13%. 13% of kids who were in a faith community heard from an adult who's a faith leader in the first year of the pandemic. So that's the bad news. Here's the good news.

I'm an optimist. So, you know, here's the good news. In that same sample, 70% of those 13 to 25-year-olds now have a new openness for relationship. So, yeah, wow is right. So I feel like we are in a divine window now to respond to kids who have been hurting over the last couple of years and where we can be that loving adult, whether we're a family member, whether we're a neighbor, whether we're a church member, whether it's that young person who we see at a coffee house regularly, whatever know, whatever it might be, like, just keep in mind, 70% of young people are more open to deep relationships. This, this is our time to build those relationships. Wow. And that doesn't cost me, that's free. I

have to be a good speaker. And if you're not, you have to work. A young person's going to come to a service. Like there's a lot of hurdles that keep a young person from even getting into a church building or church gathering, et cetera. But yeah, we can go to young people at any time. And, you know, I will say some, a tool that really helps me as a parent and as somebody who wants to mentor young people is some research we've done on three big questions that change every teenager, which is the title of our latest book. And as I think about that 70% who want deeper relationships, you know, young people are navigating questions of identity. Who am I? Questions of belonging. Where do I fit? And questions of purpose. What difference can I make?

Identity, belonging, or purpose. And so whether it's my kid or a kid from our church, when I look at their actions or when something they're doing doesn't quite make sense to me, as an adult who wants to build a relationship, when I stop and ask myself, okay, wait, are they on a quest for identity, a quest for belonging, or a quest for purpose? Like usually what that teenager is doing or saying, you know, suddenly makes sense. The way our 19-year-old is, you know, so concerned about one of her friends, oh, that's because she's searching for belonging. The way our 16-year-old is asking questions already about college and college applications. Oh, that's because she's searching for purpose. So as I've

looked at young people, it helps me empathize so much more with them because I understand what is it that they're seeking. Well, I want to be sensitive to your time. I know you got a meeting in a few minutes. I did chum some questions on Twitter and a lot came in. So let me jump in. I'm not going to get to even nearly half of these. Is it true that Gen Z is turned off by the entertainment driven model of church youth ministry? I have found this to be the case.

Wondering if you have seen the same thing. You kind of touched on that. The answer is yes, generally, right? Yeah. As a general rule, yes. Realness and rawness is far more important than something that's polished and professional. Which is so much easier to do.

Yeah, totally. Like the thought of like pulling off an attractive service, that's so stressful to me. Yeah, it's easier sometimes. I mean, I think then the question becomes, okay, if realness is more important, then how real are we willing to be and what level of realness is appropriate for us to be? So it's certainly less logistical work, but it can be more emotional to be that real adult.

What's the most significant topic in youth culture? I will say the two questions that we get asked, the two areas that we get asked more than any by youth leaders and parents are mental health, as well as questions about gender identity and sexual preference and how to respond to kids who are asking questions or wondering or making statements related to their own sexuality and or their gay or queer friends or, or their own questions about their, um, who they are. So yeah, I would say mental health and LGBTQ questions are the biggest ones we're hearing. I mean, I obviously I deal with sexuality and gender. It's a lane I live in. So my, it's kind of confirmation bias. Cause that wherever I go, that's the question, but I, it seems like that's at least top three, you know? Yeah. Yeah. For us, it's top two. It used to be technology. Technology was the big one, like five, seven, eight years ago. And I would say technology has dropped to third and mental health and gender and sexual identity are one and two.

Okay. There's some funny questions. This one's kind of fun. Would you ask her how she gets the strength to put up with boomers from my generation? I'm struggling myself. Well, okay. I mean, I will say empathy is something I'm trying to grow in. I think good leadership starts with empathy, good parenting, good marriage, good everything starts with empathy.

And what I said a few minutes ago about identity, belonging, and purpose, like even when I look at a 60-year-old and what they're doing, and it doesn't make sense to me or it seems off if I ask, okay, but wait, how are they trying to find their identity? How are they trying to find a sense of belonging or find a sense of purpose? It at least makes sense to me, and I can respond. It's been said, and I struggle with this, but as long as we say about somebody else, how could they? We aren't really empathizing with them. Oh, that's so good. Yeah.

Oh, it's penetrating for me. But how could they live like that, vote like that, think like that? As long as we're asking, how could they, we're not really empathizing. So like I said, it's a growth area for me. God's teaching me a lot there. Well, I, you know, as a Gen Xer, you're Gen X, right? Yeah. Yeah. I get millennials and I get Gen Z, but I also do get boomers too. Like I was raised, you know, single parent working three jobs. I had, you know, I was working almost full time since I was 14. And even now, the heater went out on my 89 Suburban that I drive. And I went six months lighting candles on the dash to defog the windows in the wintertime.

And my kids asked me... And I've got a fuzzy dash cover or whatever. My kids are like, is this safe? I said, probably not. Probably not. Yeah. I'm I, I'm going to say no. So when, so, so when, you know, when I'm trying to meet somebody for coffee and they're like, Oh, well, it's kind of hot out. I'm like, well, you have a car. Well, yeah, but the air conditioning doesn't get that cold. I'm like, Oh yeah. So I get the boomer kind of frustration of like, you just grind it out and you do it you work but then i also get like

you know the preachy kind of yelling at people that like here's a black and white like i get the kind of nuance and like sensitivity that gen z has too so i don't know i get i don't know i get kind of both worlds so i i do empathize with boomers you know they were raising which is a good sign i mean that's empathy when you notice and care. Um, and when you can understand why somebody would do something, I think that's a sign of empathy. Yeah. Yeah. You got to run Kara. Thank you so much, so much for what you do. My goodness. I can talk to you for hours. Um, I will, I will list all of your links and books and the show notes and I mentioned them in introduction. So, uh, yeah, I'm going to, yeah. If people have

want more resources, I mean, there's a bottomless pit of resources at the youth, uh, the, the fuller youth Institute, which you can find online. So thank you, Kara. Preston, thanks for a great conversation. And thanks for the important work you are doing and the tough questions you're willing to address. We need more people like you. So thank you for your leadership. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.