Theology in the Raw - Same Sex Attraction, Singleness, Youth Culture, and the Worthiness of Jesus: Ashleigh Hull

Episode Date: November 7, 2024

Ashleigh Hull is the Emerging Generations Associate at Living Out ministries. She has been involved in youth work for more than 10 years. She now has the joy of helping young people (and those who serve them) grapple with faith and sexuality through the work of Living Out. Her other passions include good coffee, long fantasy novels, and deep dives into the Old Testament. In this convesation, I talk with Ashleigh about her story, how she came to grips with her faith and sexuality, and the work she now does with GenZ, including Living Out's awesome new resource: Kaleidoscope. Check it out HERE. -- If you've enjoyed this content, please subscribe to my channel! Support Theology in the Raw through Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theologyintheraw Or you can support me directly through Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Visit my personal website: https://www.prestonsprinkle.com For questions about faith, sexuality & gender: https://www.centerforfaith.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of theology in the raw. My guest today is Ashley whole. Ashley has been involved in youth work for more than 10 years, and she now serves as the emerging generations associate at living out ministries, living out ministries is absolutely incredible. It's very similar to the nonprofit that I help run called the center for face sexuality and gender. Many of you are aware of that. Living Out is almost like, there's no formal connection, but it's almost like a sister organization in the UK and they do a lot of the same stuff that we do at the center. And Ashley has a really fascinating story about faith and sexuality. So that's what this conversation

is all about. And I'm really excited for you to listen to it. Ashley is extremely wise and sharp and nuanced and very people driven. So please welcome to the show for the first time, the one and only Ashley Holt. All right. Welcome to Theology in Raw. Ashley, how are you doing this afternoon in the UK? I'm fresh. Yeah, I'm good. Well, a bit cold, but I'm otherwise good. How are you doing? What's the temperature out there like right now? Oh, I don't want to put a number on it because that always makes me sad. It's cold enough. I had to get my big coat out of the cupboard today. All that outside.

And what city are you in? It's called Lemington spa. It's in like the middle of the country near Birmingham. People know that. I call it Birmingham. I have heard. Yeah, roughly the middle of the country. Okay. Is that where you grew up or did you grow up somewhere else? No, I grew up in Surrey, which is just south of London. And I lived there for most of my adult life. My parents still live there and I moved around a bit, ended up just around the corner from them, which is quite nice for a couple of years. It's a longer story, but God essentially told me to move, to kind of leave where I was and leave the things that I was doing.

And I said, okay, well, where am I going? And he said, well, I'll tell you once you get there. So I went and ended up in Leamington Spa. So my brother lives here. At the time, they had just one kid, my niece, she was one at the time. And so I moved in with them just for a couple of months while I was figuring out what God was doing and where I was going. And I've ended up staying here. So yeah, I moved in for two months and I, we were talking earlier, I've now lived here for two years. I've now got a nephew as well. That's a lot of fun. Yeah. So just been here a couple of years and it's chaos

and it's boring. I told, we're just chatting briefly offline that I feel like I know you from your, from your writings at living out and you've reviewed some of my books, which I really appreciate. You gave me really positive reviews and really great books. I really love them. Thank you. It's what we never talk to persons. So this is, you know, just for my audience knows, this is just kind of like get to know Ashley time and we'd love to hear your story. So take us back as far as you want. Who is Ashley whole? Yeah, big question. So we'll talk in terms of faith in Jesus, because those are the things

I love to talk about the most. So I grew up kind of going to church, I had that kind of classic Christian upbringing, a yes where I always knew about God, I always kind of believed, like someone would ask, they would have said, of course God loves me and of course He's real, and Jesus is God. And kind of going to class on Sundays at church would always know what the right answers were and I knew all the Bible stories and I could tell you who David and Jonathan were and how they were friends and all the things. I knew all the things. Yeah, looking back, even though I would have called myself Christian, I just, I didn't really know God. You know, I knew a lot about Him, but I didn't really know Him. And yeah, that was kind of my experience for most of my childhood. Obviously,

a lot of things, other things happened in my childhood period, but in terms of faith, that was kind of my experience for most of my childhood. Obviously, a lot of things, other things happened in my childhood period, but in terms of faith, that was kind of the landscape of my faith as a younger kid was that kind of, yeah. I know a lot about what the Bible says and who God is, but in hindsight, I actually really didn't know. So I think that probably changed, I would say, like my late teens, early 20s. I know some people have a, they can pinpoint like a moment where they gave their life to Jesus. So I have this friend, she's like at 2.07 AM on the, I think at the date, whatever date it was of this year. I knelt in my bedroom and I prayed this prayer and I like became a Christian in that moment. I became a follower of Jesus. I know a lot of people have that kind of story. I don't. Mine's more of a gradual process and

kind of gradually come and understand more and more of who God is and how that should impact my life in a way that it hadn't done up until that point. So just, yeah, through my late teens and my early twenties, was starting to just see more and more of Jesus. We're seeing in the people around me that there was this experience of relationship with God that I was not having and that maybe I wanted to have. And I had a lot of questions around that. I knew that it would mean a lot of different things for me in all different areas of my life. And so, I was wrestling through all of that. But yeah, I would say I actually began to properly follow Jesus, kind of my early 20s. That's the time when

I kind of started taking responsibility for my faith, I guess you could put it that way. Like, I actually was pursuing Jesus for myself. I wasn't assuming that everybody around me would somehow make my faith work out or sort it out for me. I was actually going, no, this is how I want to live and I want to pursue this God and I want to know this Jesus and live in line with what He said. Yeah, and I'm now, oh gosh, 33, old enough that I'm starting to forget how old I am. Yeah. And then following Jesus ever since. But that's my faith journey in a nutshell. And what is it that you do now for work in ministry? Yeah. So now I work for a charitable living out in the UK. We are in similar territory to your Center

for Faith, Sexuality and Gender. I always get those words in their own order. I'm hoping that that- Got it, you nailed it. Most people don't. Fantastic. Yeah. Yeah, there was a similar realm of stuff there.

Let Me Out was started by a group of same-sex attractive Christians who were friends and who were just wanting to put their stories out there. They were saying, nobody's really telling stories like ours. No one's really saying it is possible to experience same-sex attraction, to not act on those desires and to follow Jesus faithfully in that and how you use your sexuality. No one's telling those stories and we want to tell that. So I think the original plan was that they would kind of put a bunch of stuff on the internet, just various stories and then leave it.

But the thing snowballed. And so it's been 10 years and I joined a year and a half ago now. And so my kind of day to day role, I'm the emerging generations associate, which is like the fanciest job title I've ever had. And it essentially means that I, along with Andrew Bunt, who's also on my team, we're focused on how we engage with people under the age of 25, and the people who serve them. And so my particular focus within that

is around young people, youth, teenagers, and youth leaders. That's my, if I have an area of expertise, that's where it is. I'm a youth worker, I have been for about 10 years. And all of that. Yeah, that's kind of the day-to-day job. Yeah. And you're same-sex attracted as well?

Is that what you're saying? I am, yeah. Yeah. OK. Can you take us back? Take us back to the intersection, I guess, between your faith and your sexuality. What was that experience like when you were sort of,

for lack of better terms, awakened to both? I think sometimes those two seem very incompatible for a lot of people. Yeah, my awakening, to use that term, again, I would put that kind of around mid to late teen. So when I was trying to figure out, what would it look like for me to be a Christian? Is this something that I want to do? Do I want to follow Jesus? One of my questions was around sexuality. And I wouldn't say it was like, that was the thing, that was the only thing I needed to figure out. I would say actually the thing I needed to figure out is, do I want to surrender to Jesus full stop? Like if Jesus is Lord,

if he's Lord of my life, that means everything. Do I want to surrender everything to Jesus? But sexuality became a very prominent question within that for me. So kind of hitting puberty. I'm not exclusively same-sex attracted, so I'd sometimes find some of the guys in my sexuality became a very prominent question within that for me. So kind of hitting puberty. I'm not exclusively same-sex attracted, so I'd sometimes find some of the guys in my class attracted or whatever, but mainly I was finding, oh, I'm experiencing attraction to other girls. And that's, it wasn't something that caused me a lot of stress or worry. It wasn't something that made me kind of ask questions about my identity. I know for a lot of people, there's a lot of shame attached or a lot of fear or a lot

of almost panic and, well, who am I and what am I going to do with it? And all these kind of things. For me, it was just, oh, okay, this is a part of my experience as a human being. Okay, then I did know that the Bible said some things about it and about like being in a same-sex relationship. And so I was going, okay, if this is what the Bible says, and I want to follow Jesus, and that I know means kind of submitting my life to the authority of Scripture, is that something I want to do? What does that mean to me in terms of sexuality? That's very unique, it seems like, in my anecdotal observation of other people's stories, that

your realization that you are attracted to the same sex, not exclusively, didn't cause you a lot of trauma or panic or send you into a big faith crisis or anything. Why is that? They have to do with your environment or your upbringing, your parents or church or like... Yeah. It's a great question. And I wish I had asked for you. I really don't know. I know that it wasn't until I went to university and someone asked me about my sexuality in my relationships. That was the first time I had to try and find a label for myself. Like I just, I hadn't thought in those terms before. Yeah. And I don't know if I was aware

of, of language and vocabulary like gay or like bisexual. That's the one I ended up using when I had to give some kind of shorthand label I said bisexual. So I knew those kinds of experiences existed and that kind of language existed, but for whatever reason, I just didn't really, yeah, I don't know.

I don't know if my whole understanding of sexuality was somehow a bit different or, or whatever it was. But yeah, as I say, I wish I had an answer for you, but I really don't. Did you ever think like, Oh, I'd really like to be in a relationship with a woman and God's perfectly fine with that. Or I would like to God's not fine with that, but whatever, or when you envision like your relational future, that didn't cause any angst or right. Well, it did. So when I was 16, I started dating one of my female friends and that was the point where I probably for

the first time consciously was thinking about my attractions. Kind of, it just, it just, I didn't, I didn't, I wasn't that fussed until that point until it was actually someone who I was falling in love with and going, Oh, okay. Yeah. That was a lot of angst and that was very difficult because I was at no point did I go, I think God might be fine with this. I did a bit of reading and a bit of looking at what the Bible said and I didn't really want to talk to anybody about it, but I kind of tried to kind of sideways ask questions of people to see what they thought. But it just never, and still, with having done more reading and thinking over the last 10 or 15 years, at no point has it ever

really looked viable to me or possible to read the scriptures in that way. I just can't see it any other way. It's so clear to me that the Bible prohibits same-sex relationships. And so obviously as a 16-year-old with a new girlfriend trying to figure out, oh, but I know what the Bible prohibits same-sex relationships. And so obviously as a 16-year-old with a new girlfriend trying to figure out, oh, but I know what the Bible says about this. She was a Christian as well and also had a very similar understanding as I did. And so we're both trying to figure out what do we do here? Because it's one thing to kind of have the intellectual knowledge of this is what the Bible says, but it's a very different thing when it clashes so strongly with very strong feelings that you have and with things that you want and someone that you love. It's like, what do we do with this? How are we

supposed to navigate it? And then you're just asking a lot of the kind of heart-based questions like, this feels quite unfair and I feel very angry and I feel very confused and all of these things that were coming. So it was more like an emotional reaction and emotional questions that I was asking of God than it was an intellectual, what does the Bible say? I was convinced of that. Wow. And when did you start to be kind of public with your story, to be out or whatever language you want to use? How was that received with friends, family, church? Yeah, in stages, really. When I went to uni, as I said, I was just asked point blank and had to

give some kind of answer in terms of sexuality. My girlfriend and I were still together at that point. We had about three years of on again and off again figuring out are we together or not mess and that overlapped with the start of my university so they knew about her a little bit as well. So I was kind of just open with my new uni friends as I think is probably a common experience when people go to college or they start something new and then like oh okay I can the ways that I'm introducing myself and presenting myself here, I can do a bit of. So, did that then. I called my mom, I think in my second year of university. I'd just been thinking about it and thinking, I, so my girlfriend and I were kind of done by that point. And I was set on, yeah, I'm going to follow Jesus and I'm going to live this way.

And I just kind of wanted to share it with her. I said something like, if I had a kid, I would want them, I would want to know this about them. So I'm going to tell you, I'm a little bit gay, but you don't need to panic. You won't have to boycott my gay wedding because I love Jesus. I think I just gave her that whole sentence and then pretty much hung up because I was like, well, you probably need some time to process that. All right, bye. So that happened.

But yeah, she was, so that happened. Um, but yeah, she was, she was fantastic. Actually. She is, uh, she's wonderful. My mom, both my parents are, um, they're just, she had all that conversation with so much grace and like, she didn't say a lot, but what she said was good. And she made sure that, um, I knew that she loved me and we've just kind of continued to have the conversation over the years and stuff. So yeah, in terms of friends and family, it's like those kind of experiences.

That's great. Cause again, that is in my, from my observations, a bit of a minority experience. Like most people don't have the best conversation with their parents. I think over time, a lot of them can get really healthy and good and beautiful. But for most part, most stories I've heard is that initial conversation was not very enjoyable. Yeah. Yeah, that's definitely, I've been very, I'm going to use the word blessed. I've been very blessed just in terms of the people around me and the ways that they've responded.

That's true in terms of speaking more widely as well. When I first shared my opening with my church, it was just received so well. So it was in the context of someone else had been preaching on the cost of discipleship. We wanted to help me publicly because I was a youth worker and wanted to be able to talk to the young people about it and to be able to just to say, well, I know that for some of you, you're wrestling the questions of sexuality. I've been wrestling with questions of sexuality. Let me share some of my story with you, you know, as is appropriate. I wanted to be able to do that, but it not to be some kind of strange secret thing that any guest talks about in the youth group. And then a young person goes home and a parent's like,

I'm sorry, you've been talking about what? We just kind of wanted it upfront out there and it to be clear that the church leadership was kind of supporting me and behind me in this. Which again was amazing. So I shared like a five minute testimony at the end of this side talking about the cost of discipleship just in a, this is one way that this has looked to me in my life and some things that I've learned. And they were just so wonderful. I cried at the end. I got so many hugs that day, like more hugs I think than I'd had in the entire previous year of that jerk. Yeah. So again, just a really positive experience, which I know not everyone has had, but I'm deeply grateful.

I wonder if, I mean, there are, you know, overlaps, but also differences between the British evangelical environment and the American evangelical environment. And I've experienced both. And I've said this publicly several times, my British friends love it when I say this, but I feel like I resonate more with the posture and tone and flavor of British evangelicalism. So I'll have to say, like, it doesn't surprise me that you had that experience in that church environment. Um, you, I'm not saying you wouldn't have had that experience here. I know many amazing churches here in America, but I also know a lot of others that would not receive your testimony with so many hugs. Um, unfortunately, but, and I know nothing's, you know, not everything's perfect in British evangelicalism as well. But I am curious just to go back. You said like, when you, when you kind of looked into

this, you know, you read some books, you looked at the scriptures and, and for you, it was, it was, you said it was very clear. Like it's not really a lot of room here. I'm, I'm curious why and I don't know if this, maybe this isn't even, you can even answer it, but like why, why was it like that for you? Even though you had, you know, a, an experiential reason to want to see scriptures differently, but you just didn't. And why do other people not see it that way? Like there's people listening right now that are maybe a little, little, little, a Tift Tift. Is that the word?, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like,

I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, goes. And other people are like, I don't see that at all. Probably a few things. And I guess they all like add up altogether. So again, I might make some enemies saying this, but I do think that the clearest, plainest reading of the text is kind of the historic Christian position on it. Those very few mentions that we have of same-sex

sexual activity, they're all negative. It does come up in the Bible and every time it does, it's in a negative way. I think it's also the way that marriage is explained and defined in the Bible. So the way that it's set up in Genesis, the way that Jesus then kind of refers back to that in Matthew 19, I think it is. Paul does it as well in Ephesians 5, kind of just making it really clear that marriage is this lifelong union between one man and one woman. And it's the only context for sex. And I think, well, both explicitly and implicitly then, you've got this understanding that same-sex relationships are not, they're not what marriage is for, they're not what sex is for.

And I've been really helped by the work that Living Out and Ed Shore in particular have been and they're not what marriage is for, they're not what sex is for. And I've been really helped by the work that Living Out and Ed Shore in particular have been doing over the last few years, just thinking about it in terms of a big picture. So this is even before I joined the team, I was signing Living Out, really helpful. So joining was like,

it's like all these people that you've read their books and you've heard their names and hope they don't listen to this. And you kind of admire from afar and then, oh, they're actual humans that I get to interrupt with and work with on a daily basis. That was cool. But I was thinking that the work that they've been doing just kind of in stepping back and thinking about what is the purpose of human sexuality full stop? Like why has God made human beings sexual beings in the first place? And I think there's a lot of legitimate answers to that question in terms of like procreation and things like that.

But what I see in the scriptures is this kind of thing that's even bigger where sex and marriage are used. We use the language of signposts. They use like signposts to this bigger story of God and His love for His people. Like that is what sexuality is for. That's what marriage is meant to be showing us. That's what Paul is talking about in Ephesians 5. Again, marriage is like a little picture of this bigger reality. And so, again, that makes sense to me. If marriage is a picture on a signpost and a metaphor even, God has set it up in a certain way to demonstrate certain things. And I may not understand all of that. And frankly, I don't think I do. I think there is a mystery in marriage, in human sexuality, in understanding God full stop. But he set this picture up in a certain way on purpose. And I don't want to mess with that. And I don't want to kind

of shift it around. There's a C.S. Lewis quote that I can't remember or more bungled where he says, you can't just kind of take these beautiful figures that God has set up and moves them around like they're just irrelevant shapes. And I think that is the thing that I tend to come back to. I've done the looking at different readings of those specific verses like 1 Corinthians 6 verse 9 and so on and I've kind of looked at the scholarship on the other side of that and all those sorts of things. And I've kind of looked at the scholarship on the other side of that and all those sorts of things. And I do find the scholarship of the position

where I land more compelling, but the most compelling thing to me always is coming back to that story. It's coming back to this is what sexuality is for in the big sense. And it means that whether I stay single my whole life or whether I someday marry a man, which I think is unlikely,

but not outside the realms of possibility, God does crazy things, I still get to be a part of that bigger story. Like my singleness and my sexuality has purpose in that bigger story, just as my marriage would if I got married. Like marriage is showing us, Sal already says something like this, again, I'm going to bungle the quote. Marriage shows us the shape of the gospel. The singleness shows us the sufficiency of it. Like my singleness declares that God is enough and there is this future relationship with Him that is worth waiting for.

Yeah, and so it is this story. It is this kind of big purpose that I find the most compelling. My health is super important to me, which is why I've tried many different supplements. Now, there's lots of good products out there, but I've personally found AG1 to be the best nutrition supplement that I have ever taken. AG1 is a daily health drink that's packed with nutrients to help alleviate bloating, support sustained energy, and whole body health.

It has crucial probiotics, prebiotics, adaptogens, vitamins and minerals, all of which help combat stress, support your gut health and digestion, and supports your immune system. Now, I've been taking it consistently now for almost two years, and it has been a game changer. I literally feel the difference. Not only do I experience steady energy throughout the day, I don't have an afternoon crash like most people who rely on caffeine alone to get through the difference. Not only do I experience steady energy throughout the day, I don't have an afternoon crash like most people

who rely on caffeine alone to get through the day. I personally, I typically take it first thing in the morning or early afternoon. And when I travel and I'm consuming way too many wings, pizzas and tacos, I typically take AG1 twice a day. Now, right now AG1 is running a special Black Friday offer for all of November. So this holiday season, try AG1 for yourself

or even gift it to someone special. It's the perfect time to focus on supporting your body with an easy and surprisingly delicious daily health drink. And that's why I've been partnering with AG1 for so long. I really love this product. Every week of November, AG1 will be running a special Black Friday offer for a free gift with your first subscription,

in addition to the welcome kit that includes a year supply of vitamin D3K2. So make sure you check out drinkag1.com forward slash TITR to see what gift you can get this week. That's drinkag1.com forward slash TITR to see what gift you can get this week. That's drink ag1.com forward slash TITR to start your holiday season on a healthier note while supplies last. Hey friends, if theology in raw has blessed or challenged you in any way, would you consider supporting the show through patron at patreon.com forward

slash theology in the raw. We are actually revamping our bonus material that Patreon supporters get. So we are going to two bonus Q and A's per month for all the different paid levels. Silver level gets access to ask questions for the Q and A episode. And also you will get access to Exiles and Babylon archived content, which we'll be releasing different videos every month. Also access to bonus research episodes that I'm gonna record from time to time,

access to rough drafts of certain things I'm working on, which is a little scary for me to let people look into that because it's a rough draft. Gold and Gold Plus members, we have monthly Zoom chats and all the other perks that the other tiers get access to as well. So again, if you want to support the show,

it really, really does help us to flourish as a ministry. Again, patreon.com forward slash theology and hurrah. I will see you in the community. When you think about businesses that are selling through the roof, like Allo or Allbirds, sure, you think about a great product, a cool brand, and great marketing. But an often overlooked secret is actually the businesses behind the business, making selling and for shoppers, buying, simple.

For millions of businesses, that business is Shopify. Nobody does online business better than Shopify. It's home of ShopPay, the number one checkout in the world. You can use it to boost conversions up to 50%, meaning way less carts going abandoned and way more sales going through to checkout. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at Shopify.com slash income, all lowercase. Go to Shopify.com slash income to upgrade your selling today. That's Shopify.com slash income.

What would you say to the person that's thinking like, oh gosh, if you remain single, you're gonna be totally alone and lonely, and that's terrible. I can't, you know, maybe I can imagine like a young person listening, a 19 year old, 22 year old, you know, single though, my whole life. Like that sounds like the worst kind of existence ever. Have you ever thought that?

Or how would you respond to somebody? I'm sure you've had to encounter people who might have that kind of response to what you're saying. Yeah, for sure. I think we're very confused about singleness in, I'm going to say our culture. I know that the US and the UK are different and all that sort of thing, but I'm going to just talk about Western culture as a far too broader thing. Sure.

And say that we are confused about singleness and about romantic relationships all the time. And we do think that sex and marriage and romance are the pinnacles of human existence. And if you're missing out on those, then you're missing out on everything that matters. You're missing out on family, you're missing out on intimacy, you're missing out on happiness, all of these things. But I just don't, that's not how the Bible talks about either marriage or singleness. So marriage is a good gift, but it's not ultimate. It's not, it's not, you don't have to be married in order to be a completely fulfilled human being.

Jesus was single, Paul was single. You don't have to be married in order to kind of be meeting God's ultimate purpose for your life. His ultimate purpose for your life is for you to become like Jesus. It's not for you to find a spouse. And then singleness is a good gift. And I think we can, sometimes in church we can get that far and we kind of add to the unspoken caveat of it's a good gift, but it's not as good as the gift of marriage. You know, singleness is kind of this second tier, second rate gift that nobody really wants. But that's not how the Bible talks about it. The Bible talks about marriage and singleness on a level. If anything, it actually seems to elevate the gift of singleness above the gift of marriage and say that singleness is maybe even better. Like 1 Corinthians 7, I think Paul

might even go that far. And I think you can say that because intimacy is not only found in romantic relationships, family is not only found in romantic relationships, all of these things. Like, we can have intimacy with God first and foremost, which blows my mind completely, that we can know and be known by God in such a way, that we can have that kind of intimate relationship. Like, sexism and marriage, they're pictures of the kind of intimate union that we can have with God. That's insane to me. But it's so good. And then He gives us friends and He gives us church family that we can experience intimacy with. So I actually think the idea of a lonely Christian should be a complete contradiction. Like I think if you're a Christian, function like if your church

family is functioning the way that it should, there shouldn't be such a thing as a lonely Christian. We're called to be family to each other. We're called to be brothers and sisters. We're called to be in and out of each other's lives and literally doing life together. Yeah. So, Singleness in my experience is joyous, actually. The friendships that I have. I live with literal biological family, but the church family that I have as well around me, just there is so much richness and so much depth in those relationships. And I actually think if I was married, I'd be missing out on some of that because when you, you can correct me if I'm wrong, Preston, but I assume when you're married, you kind of have to

prioritize your relationship with your spouse. Like that's kind of the primary relationship in your life, aside from God. And that just means that you have less that you can pour into other relationships. Whereas I don't have that. And that means that I can build multiple deep, rich relationships with a variety of people in a way that I don't think I'd be as free to as if I were married. Yeah. I mean, all that's fantastic and very biblical. I would say I have, I would say a very healthy marriage.

My wife and I, in the longer we've been married, the closer we get. We've been through a lot together. There's been, you have your fights and battles and this and that, and you have your high moments and low moments and throwing four kids and the stress that that had the joys and stresses and all that and financial strain and whatever. It's just, you know, it's, it's a journey.

But I can say a hundred percent that yeah, there's things that married people, there's things that married people have that single people don't in terms of the potential of relational connection. And I say potential because some married me, I don't know the percentage, but there's a lot of marriages there. They become just roommates as they get older. And which is why when kids leave the house, a lot of times divorce happens. Cause they're like kind of done with you, you know, I don't hate you, but I just like, don't love you anymore. And like kind of want to go hang out with other people. So there, so where's it going with that? Yeah. There's relational

advantage, the potential of relational experiences that married people have, but then there's also experiences that single people have that married people miss out on. Yeah. There's, I have so many, like my, my, my life focus is on, yeah. Tending to the needs of my wife, my kids, my family and everything. Sometimes my kids will ask me like, so what do you want to like, what would you want to do right now? Or what would you, where would you want to go? Or what would you want to move to? I'm like, I don't even like, I don't, I never think about what I want to do. Like I don't like where, where would you want to live? I mean, I'd want to live in Tahiti, but I wouldn't buy that wouldn't

work for my family. You know, like, or even like I would move the San Diego or something, you know, like that just, that my family's on a stage where that works for them. So it's like my, like, I don't even think I haven't thought about like what I want, you know, for like since I've been married, like I've never thought like, what do I want to do? You know, like it's always like how I need everything is like caring for my family, which I love to do. And it's given me much fulfillment, but it's also like, I look at single people like you, you just do whatever you want. Like you can go hang out with whoever you want. Somebody's advice over dinner. Like, yeah, sure. You know, you

don't like check with anybody. Like you can just go hang out with your friends, go see whatever, you know, like, yeah. So it's not, it's not a better or worse. It's what the Bible says. It's 1 Corinthians 7. Like there is each one is a very valid vocation and will come with its blessings and challenges fully. Yeah. I, I, man, I, how, how do you, okay. So it's one thing for us to talk like this. We know the Bible. It sounds like you have a healthy community around you. What do you say to somebody that is in a church environment or just an environment where the church isn't functioning the way it should? Because there's a lot of people where it's like, yeah, I go to church. I have a bunch

of superficial conversations. I kind of drag myself through a sermon and then I go home. And it's like, I don't have a New Testament kind of church experience. What would you say to that person that doesn't have a good community around them? That would be hard, right? If you're single and you don't have a rich community, whatever that looks like, that would be difficult.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I would say I'm sorry, because that is so hard. I have been in that position where I just, I'm so alive, where are my people? So where I was living a few years ago, I ended up. That's how my friends had gradually moved away from where I was. Yeah, and I just, I felt incredibly alone,

and that was incredibly difficult. The thing I think I failed to do, and this may not be the case for everybody, but this probably was for me. I didn't take any initiative. I just sat in a bit of a, where was me, everything's terrible, pay party, to put it far too lightly.

I think if I had gone out my way a little bit more, just a little bit and just made the effort to cross the room and talk to someone different, or made the effort to say, hey, would you like to come for dinner? This was also just on the tail end of the COVID pandemic. So that also made relating to people quite difficult. But I think just being the kind of friend that I wanted to have is actually, someone advised me to do that once, and some of the best advice I think I've ever received. So when I moved here, that's what I did. I was like, I want to make friends here. I want to build community. I want to

put down roots. And I don't like this fact. I want everyone to come to me because I'm amazing and incredible. And of course they'd be blessed to know me. That's what I want to feel like. But in reality, we're all a bit awkward, we're all a bit British, and I need to cross the room. I need to go to people and say, hello, I'm Ashley, and find something to talk about, which goes against all my introvert tendencies, but it's gotta be done.

Or I need to say to people, can we hang out? Even, so it can be difficult because there's so many people in our house for me to have people over, but even inviting myself to their house is something that I've started doing with people. Really? Just to say, like, I'd love to spend time with you.

I can't offer you, I can't host you in my space, but maybe we could hang out in yours. I just being really, really intentional and deliberate in building those relationships. And as I say, that is my experience and that's not necessarily gonna be the case for everybody. There may be people out there who are trying to be really intentional

and are just getting nothing back from the people around them. And again, I'm so sorry if that is you. I would pray like for all of it, but especially as that's where you are. Like God knows. There was a verse I climbed to from the Psalms where when I was feeling very alone and it says, God puts the lonely in families. And I used to, I would be like, I'm holding you to this, God, but where's mine? Your word says that this is who you

are and this is what you do. So where's my family? Like, you promised this, I'm going to hold you to it. So I think we can pray like that. We can pray, God, you said that singleness is good and singleness is a gift. And I know that that's the case because of how we're situated within your people. I'm not experiencing the goodness of it. And like, it feels almost offensive to speak to God that way, but I actually think we can sometimes. I think we can be so honest when we are angry and when we are hurt. Like, He's not afraid of our emotions. He's not afraid of us being real. I think he actually treasures that far more than if we sort ourselves out and compose ourselves and then come to him with our night's formal prayer. I think he would rather have the

screaming at the ceiling or emotion of it. And yeah, he may answer you in a moment, he may answer you in a year or 10 years from when you start asking, but we just keep coming back to him that way. We just keep asking and trusting that He'll do something and He'll work all of this for our good and for His glory. That's good. I mean, you see that throughout the Psalms, right? I mean, the Psalmist, David and others, almost like holding God accountable. That sounds a little too strong. Well, maybe not. Like to, to His, God, you have promised something. So I'm expressing my, my, my angst to want to see these promises fulfilled, or it seems like you're not doing what you said you do.

Of course he, God is doing what you know, but like, it seems like he's not, you know, and expressing holy angst around those things for sure. You see, I mean, yeah, wisdom, literature, Joe Psalms for sure. I want to, so you deal a lot with youth, gen Z, your, you mean, yeah, wisdom, literature, Job, Psalms, for sure. So you deal a lot with youth, Gen Z. You're closer to youth than I am, but you're still beyond youth. Tell us about the, how would you describe youth culture in the UK when it comes to faith and sexuality? I know that's a broad question, but when you have these kinds of conversations with youth, whether they're in the church, on the edge of the

church, or outside the church, how would you describe where youth generally speaking are at here? Are you able to talk about these things? Is there a lot of polarization? Is a lot of anger maybe? Or are they open to all kinds of dialogues and perspectives around these conversations? That's a big question. Big, yeah. I'll take us the rest of the time. I think there is an openness to talk about it.

I think we're quite scared to in the church to generally talk about sexuality and gender, but specifically when it comes to this generation, we feel a bit paralyzed to do it. But I think when people do, they realize, oh no, there is a willingness to have real conversations. I think young people, they really value authenticity. They really value actually having a real conversation about something. So much of their lives, this is just me speculating now,

so much of their lives is, particularly being online, is intangible. So many of their relationships are intangible. But actually to be able to talk about something real, I think is deeply significant to a lot of them. So if someone's just willing to have a genuine conversation about sexuality, I think young people are best.

I don't think it's massively polarized. Again, I'm overgeneralizing, but the little that I know of from the States, I think you guys have a bit more of a polarization there than we would over here. I think it's more, so I will, as I'm talking to various young people, it may be that someone is kind of coming out of the Christian upbringing, Christian home, and they are kind of fine with what the Bible says, but they just don't know what to do with it. They're like, I've got a friend who is gay and I don't know how to talk to them. Or even I have no gay friends. I've never met a gay person as far as I know. I'm scared of the day that I do, because the first

thing they're going to say is, oh, you're a Christian, don't you hate gay people? And I don't know how to answer their question. So I think we've got like, we've got some of that here in the church. But then also the young people who, either for themselves or their friends, are asking more questions about what the Bible has to say. Maybe they're questioning the authority of God and of Scripture and whether that's a good authority. I think there's a lot of distrustful authority in this generation, for a lot of valid reasons, actually. They've seen a lot of abuses of power. But then, yeah, it's kind of going, well, isn't God just one voice among many? Why should I listen to Him if I don't like what He says about this? And just kind of wrestling with that and going, how could this be good news? Like, how can this actually

make sense in the modern day, in my experience, in the feelings that I have or that my friends have? How can this be good? And how can it be logical and reasonable for God to say these kind of things? And then I think there's a whole other camp who just have absolutely no idea that the Bible says stuff like this. But there are some, I don't think I've ever actually met a Gen Z, they must be out there. But I don't think I've had a Gen Z come up to me and say, well, you, hey, gay people don't do because of what the Bible says. I think it's actually more of a confusion or a completely no idea that the Bible has anything to say about this. So I've been leading seminars and things before, and I've seen these looks

of complete shock on people's faces. And I've realized this is genuinely the first time that they're hearing anything about it, which I think is our problem in itself. Like we need to be talking about this stuff in church, just generally, so that young people know it, but far more so that they know the goodness of it. Like God has good news when it comes to sexuality. God has good news for this generation and all their experiences of sexuality and gender. And we need to be telling them because otherwise they won't know that. Okay.

So I want to try to embody a pushback because I get this a lot. I want to hear how you respond, especially with young people when they say, wait a minute, God just doesn't allow gay people to fall in love and have a romantic relationship with the people of the same sex. It's like, well, they didn't, they didn't choose this. So they're just, they're just kind of screwed. Like it's just the way it is. Like, how is that loving that God would say, I'm going to either put these desires in your to either put these desires in your heart or allow these desires to come into your heart. And then I'm just going to, for whatever reason, construct a view of marriage that said that rules that out and say, yeah,

that's just, I guess, sucks to be you. That just doesn't seem fair for one. And makes me want to doubt the goodness of how can you say God's good when he created a whole system that doesn't feel very good for a decent percentage or, you know, small percentage, but millions of people in the world? I'm sure you encounter something like that, especially from younger people. I guess not only younger people, but I get that, but that's probably the first thing that comes up when I talk to, you know, Gen Z and around that age group. So, yeah, how do you never get that? Yeah. I actually kind of love when people give me that kind of question because I can answer with the gospel.

And I think so many of these sexuality conversations so easily lead to talking about the gospel and talking about Jesus. That's fantastic. So, I want to talk about, well, yeah, I'm saying that God is good and that God made us good and all of these things. But also, as Christians, we believe that the world has gone wrong. Like this thing called sin has entered the world and human beings have rebelled against God and that has impacted everything about us. And all of us, like every human being now, is experiencing that in some way or another. And all of us are experiencing that in terms of sexuality in different ways. All of us have, I think it's Ed Shore, he's focused on sexuality, he says, all of us have sexualities that are uniquely damaged and uniquely damaging. And so for me that looks one way, for you that looks one way, but all of us are kind of experiencing

just the brokenness of being human in this fallen world in one way or another. And then of course you get to talk about Jesus and how He's going to redeem everything and what He's done to bring that about and then new creation and something. I'd also just want to ask a lot of questions. Like if someone's listening and they've got young people coming to see them and asking them these things, I'd want to ask them questions back and try and figure out what kind of stuff is going on underneath for them. Like, what's the question behind the question? What are the assumptions that are being made? Like, is the assumption that someone's sexuality is their identity?

Like, is it a... So you're saying that God has created me this way, this is who I am, and then he's saying that you can't be that, because that would be incredibly unfair. But that's not how we understand identity. That's not what I think is going on. Or yeah, just whatever it may be, just kind of wanting to go, what is going on behind your question? Where is it coming out of?

What can I help you understand? Kind of in a foundational Christian worldview sense, what blocks can I help you lay so that what I'm telling you about sexual arts, so you can be built on top of that belief? So as a parent, one of my greatest desires is to help my kids understand the Bible. But as your parents know, this is no easy task. Okay. So this is why I'm so excited about the Bible Recap for Kids by Tara Lee Kamel.

Oh my goodness, this is an awesome resource. The Bible Recap for Kids is a young reader's edition of the best-selling the Bible Recap and is adapted for kids ages 8 to 12 years old. It follows along the same 365-day adult reading plan, but the recaps are adapted to this younger age group. Each recap only takes about three minutes to read. And although the book is set up to read the entire Bible of the year, but it's okay if your child goes at their own pace. So if you have kids or know of parents with kids or preteens, this book is a great way to help them to read, understand, and love God's Word. Okay, so the Bible Recap for Kids releases November 12th, but I want to encourage you to pre-order your copy before November 12th.

This will give you plenty of time to get it and then maybe even make a family plan to be going through the Bible together come January 1st. But I want you to order it from BakerBookHouse.com. Okay, so don't go to Amazon. Let's avoid Amazon for this one. Go to BakerBookH house.com because there you will receive 40% off the book and free shipping and you'll get a free downloadable set of 50 scripture memory verse flashcards. So just click on the link in the show notes to get

the Bible recap for kids. The identity piece is so super important because there's almost like, there's different views of what identity even means. There's the kind of subjective identity and then objective identity. Subjective meaning how the person identifies, how they see themselves, which is what most people probably assume when we say identity. It's like, what is your identity meaning how do you identify? I'm not just you know, I'm not saying, not just gay straight, but I mean, whatever. Like, how, how do you see yourself? Do you see yourself?

Yeah. As you know, in terms of your sexuality, your gender, your, your, your, your political position, whatever, like there's all kinds of subjective identities. Then there's an object of identity. How the creator sees you, you know, he sees you as a human being created in his image as a male or female is six foot four or five, nine. No, there's certain, certain objective factors of just who you are, regardless of whether you subjectively identify that way.

Um, so when you say identity, I'm hearing more of the objective, the, the outside of your subjective sense of self. It is objectively who are you as a human being. I don't know if young... I think just distinguishing between different meanings of identity, that alone could be really helpful, I think, especially for younger people to sort through, would you say? Yeah, I agree. I don't think... Well, for those of us who are still just young people,

but I think a lot of us don't have a particularly sophisticated understanding of identity, to be honest, I'm not convinced I do either. But just, yeah, kind of teasing those things out, going, what do we mean by identity? Maybe you use those kind of objective, subjective terms, or maybe you just talk about there are ways that we do identity or that we understand identity that kind of the world would lay out for us. The Bible and God have also told us some things about understanding identity. We can look to those as well and see what He says about who we are and what identity means and that kind of thing. But yeah, I think just again, asking questions about that and helping them to go, because it's very easy, isn't it? When you live and you're constantly bombarded messaging in a

certain direction, again, we all are just by living in the world that we live in. It's so easy to just kind of repeat what you've heard or repeat what you've been told. But if someone starts asking you questions and you then stop and think about it and you might go, oh, they're right. That doesn't completely hold up or make sense. That's not a completely logical flow of thought. Maybe I need to rethink some of my unconscious assumptions here just to get a better basis there. Do you have some key questions that often do that? That kind of... Oh, now you're testing me. I mean, the identity piece would be one. I mean, I think that's a good one too. Like, what is it? Who are you? And, you know, how do you know? Yeah. Identity is a huge one for this generation. Like,

identity language has exploded. So that's definitely a big place to go. I mean, I talk in a lot of Christian contexts. So I always want to come back to that and see what is our understanding of the gospel? What is our understanding of God and of Jesus? I think you said something earlier when you were pretending to be a teenager and doing it very convincingly.

I have four, I have four teenagers. You get practice every day. Oh yeah. Yeah. You said something about... Yeah, about God constructing a view of sexuality and marriage a certain way, but then either creating or allowing people to have desires, they just go against that through no choice of their own. Just seems unfair. Because that assumption that I have these desires, or let's just say some people have these desires and God says, no, you can't act on those desires, even though they're

not harmful. These desires are consensual. You can even say they're loving and like, I just, I want to come alongside and spend my life with somebody and serve them and we can be better together than apart. You know, all the things that we would say about any other relationship to say, God just seemingly arbitrarily says yes to these, but no to these, that can seem very unfair. But that whole perspective, which I think is really powerful and I resonate with, and I would imagine any, I don't fault anybody for not aggressively

asking that question even, you know? Like that, yeah, that can feel really lame, you know? But it does miss the category of brokenness. I'm curious when you use a language of brokenness in terms of same sex sexuality, is that a turnoff? Cause I know some people even who would hold to a historically Christian view of marriage who, who don't love, and maybe they've been in an environment where that's all they've heard is if you're gay, you're broken. And, and, and typically straight people haven't talked about their brokenness with the same vigor and passion

that they've talked about. Same-sex sexuality as, as being evidence of brokenness is that, but as that language, can that be triggering or off-putting when, when you use that language brokenness in terms of same-sex sexual? Yeah, I think, umats when using it are, like making it clear that I'm not talking specifically about like not just referring to people who experience same sex attraction. I'm saying that all of us as human beings

are experiencing that brokenness. Yeah, it's not that like gay people are broken and straight people are whole. We're fine. But that's not at all what we're talking about. So I think I would want to make that clear that if we're using the language of brokenness, we're referring to all fallen human beings. And yeah, I'd also want to caveat that I am a bit of a writer and a storyteller and a poet.

That's what I do for fun. So I will tend to use language that is maybe more evocative and less precise. And that's probably one of those terms. Um, but usually when I'm doing it in context, that is a little clearer than, than what you're getting here today. Tell us about the work you guys are doing at living out. I love living out. You guys are awesome. I've hung out with Ed and Andrew I'm a fan of the show. I'm a fan of the show. I'm a fan of the show. I'm a fan of the show. I'm a fan of the show. I'm a fan of the show. I'm a fan of the show. I'm a fan of the show. I'm a fan of the show. I'm a fan of the show.

I'm a fan of the show. I'm a fan of the show. I'm a fan of the show. I'm a fan of the show. I'm a fan of the show. I'm a fan of the show. I'm a fan of the show. Yeah, all of that as well. We're out and about all over the country doing various things. I am still, well, no, I've recovered, but I had a big season over the summer visiting a bunch of different youth festivals in a living out capacity. So that was a lot, but it was fantastic. Just like back to back stuff. It was really fun. So we do all that kind of thing as well.

The biggest thing for particularly me and my colleague Andrew, but really for living out as a whole over the last, oh, 18 months, has been this new resource we're producing called ColliderStope. It's a resource for youth groups, it's a six episode series, kind of talking through a bunch of the stuff that you and I have just talked about. So laying some of those foundations about like identity and just a Christian worldview things and then talking about what is the purpose of sex and sexuality and then kind

of looking at the practical implications for that. So what does that mean for how we live as Christians? Talking about marriage and singleness, talking about same-sex sexuality, gender, and then a kind of now what? Like if I am, say, that Christian kid who's convinced by this but don't know how to talk to anybody in the world about this, what do I do now? And there's a bunch of other associated resources as well. It's why it's been a year and a half's worth of our lives. But that's kind of been the big thing for us lately. And I suspect actually when this episode airs, it will be live. It's Jason, Girl and I, on the 1st of November, which is very exciting. Oh my gosh. That is fantastic. There's probably nothing else out there like this, right? In the British

car. We created something similar for us in America, but I would imagine there's not a lot of other people doing this kind of work in the UK? Nothing that I know of. We talked to a bunch of youth leaders and stuff as we were getting everything ready that we didn't want to just have our little teams input. Although we do know what we're talking about. We hope that we wanted to get input from a variety of sources. All the youth leaders we talked to were saying, we need this and we have needed it and there

is nothing like it out there. So they're all very excited. Do you feel like, well, one last question. I'm just curious, like the state of this conversation in the church in your context, where is it at? Where has it been? Where is it going is kind of what I want to find out. Like, for instance, are more and more churches engaged in this conversation in healthy, nuanced, gospel centered ways? Are they shying away from it more and more? Is it becoming more and more polarized where you have the hyper conservative churches and more progressive churches? Yeah. Does that make sense? Like where is the state of this

conversation? Yeah. In America, it's often wedded to kind of the political climate, you know, and everything keeps getting more and more polarized. And in our context, I feel like it's getting more, more polarized. Like I feel like we're all, we were on a good trajectory in the last few years. It's just gotten really, really just more difficult in many contexts to even have the conversation. But I'm in many churches where they're doing a great job having a conversation, but it's just, we're in an interesting space right now. So yeah, how would you describe the state of this conversation in your context? Yeah. I can only really answer from a subjective perspective, but I'll tell you how it seems to me.

I find myself encouraged far more than I am disheartened or anything else, which is good, obviously. I think that more and more I am seeing people wanting to engage and seeking to engage with these conversations and seeking to do that well. More and more, rather than people kind of coming to us and saying, hey, could you come and do this for us? I'm hearing more and more stories of people saying, oh, just so you know, we did this thing. And then they'll tell us what they did and how they did it. I'm like, that's so good, you did that so well.

Like, it does just feel like people are more equipped and more willing to engage with stuff, which is, as I say, deep, big origin. Officially a member of the Church of England, have been for the past two origin. I'm officially a member of the Church of England. I've been for the past two years. I didn't grow up in the Church of England, the Anglicans, but I am one now. And things are quite difficult there.

We'll go into the whole thing that some lessons may know, just we're working students living in love and faith, LLF process, and essentially deciding about blessings for same-sex couples and what's permissible and what's not in churches. And that has felt quite divisive and saddening. So that kind of polarization is definitely there in the spheres that I'm involved in as much as there is encouragement.

And I imagine that other church groups and movements are having some of that difficulty as well. I think by no means is it all rosy over here. But yeah, even within that, I still see so much to be encouraged by and see God at work in so many different ways. Oh, that's fantastic. That's good to hear. Well, Ashley, I've really enjoyed this conversation and most of all, yeah, again, just can't recommend living out enough. Where can people find can't recommend living out enough working people find While living out and the work that you do there. Yeah, well all on living out dog you had there you'll find everything

Gloriously arranged I hope on our website eating it down again. Well good, please do Check out Ashley's amazing articles. I've I've I mean, your written work that I've read is so thoughtful, but it's also just so well written too. It's just so, I can tell you're a poet and a creative writer. So really, really enjoyed that. Well, thank you so much for being on Theology of the Rock. I actually really appreciate you and the work you're doing.

It's so good to be here. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network. Greetings and God bless. This is Tyler Burns. And this is Dr. Jamar Tisby. And we want to invite you to check out our podcast, Pass the Mic, Dynamic Voices for a Diverse Church. Pass the Mic has been speaking directly to the core concerns of black Christians for over a decade. On our show, we've got interviews from theologians, historians, actors, activists, and so much

more. Not to mention heartfelt, open dialogue on some of the heaviest issues facing the church in the United States. Be sure to subscribe to the show on iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcast. We'll see you there on the next Pass the Mic. Hey friends, Rachel Grohl here from the Hearing Jesus podcast. Do you ever wonder if you're truly hearing from God?

Are you tired of trying to figure it all out on your own? The Hearing Jesus podcast is here to help you live out your faith every single day. And together we will break down these walls by digging deeply into God's Word in a way that you can really understand it. If this sounds like the kind of journey you want to go on, please join us on the Hearing Jesus podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.