Theology in the Raw - Sexual Desire, Singleness and the Beauty of Christian Sexual Ethics: Andrew Bunt

Episode Date: July 16, 2026

If you want to access our extra innings conversation, become a member of the TITR community here Request a free copy of Heroic Faith here: Andrew Bunt is the Content Director at Living Out, a UK based ministry that equips the church in matters related to sexuality and gender from biblical perspective. (living out.org). Andrew is a pastor, speaker, and author who’s written several books including his latest book: Getting God’s Perspective: A Short Christian Introduction to Worldviews, Sexuality & Gender. In this conversation, we discuss questions about the Christian sexual ethic—is it beautiful or oppressive and harmful? Why a Christian worldview is essential for understanding the Christian sexuality ethic. How a Christian view of freedom and progress are important for understanding sexuality. And then, in our "extra innings" portion of this conversation, we discuss, once again, whether Christians should “identify” as gay (and what the term “identity” even means).Time Stamps00:00:00 Introduction00:02:12 The Beauty of Christian Sexuality & God's Design 00:06:33 Why the Secular Story About Sexuality Falls Short 00:14:17 Talking with Young People About LGBTQ Friends & Biblical Boundaries 00:22:58 Living with Unmet Sexual Desires and Spiritual Growth 00:27:15 Singleness, Loneliness, and the Community Jesus Envisioned 00:34:30 The Importance of Deep Friendship and Belonging in the Church 00:45:00 Why Worldview Matters for Conversations About Sexuality & Gender 00:55:00 A Christian Worldview of Progress and Living Faithfully in a Changing Culture See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

So many of the conversations having with people about sexuality and gender, the questions they're asking, the objections they're raising even, they're kind of not about sexuality and gender. When you drill it down, really, it is, they think very differently about identity, say, or about authority, about freedom. And actually, the issue isn't up here in sexuality and gender. The issue is down here. I think that's only increasingly becoming the case. I realize there might be a problem down here in the foundations level we actually need to talk about and actually need to address. Hey, friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology and around my guest today is Andrew Brue. Bunt, who is the content director at Living Out, a UK-based ministry that equips the church and matters related to sexuality and gender from a biblical perspective. Check them out at

livingout.org. It's an awesome ministry. Andrew is a pastor speaker and author who's written several books, including his latest book, Getting God's Perspective, a short Christian introduction to worldviews, sexuality, and gender. And in this conversation, we discuss questions, many questions, different questions related to the Christian sexual ethic. Is it beautiful, or is it harmful and oppressive, why a Christian worldview is essential for understanding the Christian sexual ethic, and how a Christian view of freedom and progress are important for understanding its view of sexuality. And then in our extra innings portion of this conversation, we discuss once again whether Christians should identify as gay and what

the term identity even means. So if you want to access our extra innings conversation, then become a member of the theology in the raw community over at Patreon. dot com forward slash theology in the raw or click on the link in the show notes okay without further ado please welcome back to the show the one and the only andrew bunne Andrew bunn welcome back to theology in the raw good to see you again where are you tuning in from what city are you in i'm in bexhill little seaside town on the southeast coast of england a beautiful area i don't know if i've been to the south uh what's the town i've been to it's where Andrew Andrew Wilson.

Oh, it's born. That's just literally the next town along. Oh, it is. Oh, gorgeous area. Oh, man. Yeah, it's nice. All right. So let's talk.

You've done so much thinking about sexuality, gender, obviously related to your own story, but also just as a, you know, you're a teacher, a discipleer in this area. Here's, I want to lead with this question because this is something I hear a lot and I wrestle with, you know, that the Christian sexual gender ethic is not just true. It's not just right. actually beautiful. And that, you know, I've said that a lot and it just kind of rolls off my tongue, you know,

the Christian I think is beautiful. But I mean, if you put yourself in the shoes of somebody else who's maybe not a Christian or even a Christian who, yeah, wrestles with that different kind of experience, I mean, it's like, okay, true, maybe, but beautiful. It kind of sounds restrictive. It sounds unfair. it sounds arbitrary. You know, how come some people can have sex with who they want to have sex with

that other people can't? Like that just seems very unfair. Or, you know, some people are perfectly comfortable in their biological sex. Other people aren't. And like, how do you explain the fact that the Christian sexual ethic and gender ethic is not just good, but beautiful? Well, that's such a good question. There's so much in there, isn't there?

First thing to say is, I do think, I do think, is good and beautiful, and I think we can unpack that. But also when someone's bringing those kind of questions, thoughts, I also want to unpack with them those things. I think the risk is we can be so committed, as you say it slips off the tongue easily. We believe this is beautiful. We just say that. And we can be quite quick not to listen to an individual's own struggles of it. And so always actually, I do want to present to someone what I think is beautiful about this, but also I want to make sure if I was talking to an individual, I really am hearing what they're saying when they're saying, actually for me, it feels this way or what about

this, what about that? So only said by context of this isn't necessarily what I would dive in with someone who was saying to me, but actually I feel this, I feel that about it. But in terms of bringing out the beauty, and I think various different ways and various different levels, I do think there's something inherently beautiful about the profound meaning that a Christian understanding of sexuality puts onto sexuality. That sexuality isn't just about procreation or about pleasure or about companionship, although it is about all those things, but this beautiful idea in scripture

that sexuality is ultimately about the relationship between Christ and the church. And therefore, that even my sexual desires are talking to me and teaching me and communicating something very faintly about the depth of God's longing for me, there is something inherently profound

about the depth of meaning that puts into sexuality. And what that tells us about God, that God loves us so much and so wants us to have a, almost a tangible experience of his depth of longing for us, that he's done this really kind of, we've done this thing of making a sexual being, so at these profound deep longings. And, you know, arguably, I think sexual desire is one of the deepest forms of desire. And certainly

often it feels some of the strongest forms of desire we can ever experience. And just the beauty, the profound sense, that is God's purposeful plan such that we would have some faint taste of his longing for us. I just find the same. I find the same. something beautiful in the meaning of that. And then they also helps us go into some of those questions or objections, or just genuine struggles people might have that you mention. Things like the kind of, well, isn't this unfair kind of stuff? But just to realize actually that the beauty of God's plan for sexuality, partly because of its deep profound meaning, is that both marriage and singleness can be and argued is also so good. So the fact that marriage is his beautiful

picture of Christ and the church. How wonderful, how profound that our sexual desires and marriages are around us are telling us that. But also the fact that singleness is this picture of our eternal destiny as individuals, the fact that none of us be married to another human in the new creation, because corporately will all be married to Christ. The fact that to live today as an adult single like I do as a Christian is this kind of prophetic picture of, actually you don't need a spouse, You don't need sex, a sexual relationship to be fulfilled. Actually, Jesus is the relationship. Relationship with him is the relationship we really need.

And I think that's much more beautiful than the cultural narrative, which basically says sex particularly, but sex and romance are where it at, where it's at. Therefore, you really need to look for that and kind of aspire to that. And, you know, everyone should have access to that. But of course, even if we say everyone can have access to that by basically any sexual relationship being legitimate, there'll still be people who don't find anyone who consents to have sex with them. There'll still be people who through all kinds of life circumstances are left single. So I find actually a real lack of beauty in the secular narrative,

which is you need basically sex and romance to be fulfilled, to flourish in life, and that's where it's at. But that inevitably leaves some people in this misery of not having sex, not having a romantic relationship. And part of for me of the beauty of the Christian perspective is whichever of those two experiences we find, ourselves in at any stage of life, both are good, both are purposeful, both have deep, profound meaning, and both are ways that we can enjoy God's blessings to us and we can seek to be faithful

to him. Would it be right to say that the, and it's easy as Christians to just critique the secular narrative, but it seems like giving your explanation that a secular narrative about sexuality has no meaningful place for unmet or unmet. unfulfilled sexual desires, which everybody is going to, most people I think are going to experience on some level. I think that's probably true. I don't think it's a really good question. I don't think it has a place for those. What's the purpose of, yeah, sexual desire that's not acted upon in a sense. I'm not sure a culture does have that. And that probably feeds in, to be honest, to the reality that modern Western culture is pretty sex crazed and that, you know,

lust and pornography usage are kind of openly talked about, are seeing as very normal, the things to joke about, because of this sense of if you've got a desire, you've got to act in it. And almost that sense in culture we have that, especially when it comes of sexual desire, there's almost a sense of to not acting or sexual desires, is inherently dangerous and harmful. And therefore there's the assumption, obviously all adults are sexually active in some way, because it'd be kind of dangerous not to do so. And that's just not true. And I think, not a helpful, helpful perspective, or I think it does lead people to practices, habits, including pornography usage, which I think are not helpful and are harmful,

as actually, of course, increasingly secular voices are recognizing that as well. Yeah. So if, going back to what you said earlier, if sexual desire teaches us, teaches us about God's longing for us, then how, in that scenario, how does unmet sexual desire relate to or point us to God? Because we would hope that God's desire and longing for us is fulfilled. Or is this part of kind of like an old creation already not yet? Like, I guess so. Yeah, yeah. I think our experience of sexual desire teaches us something about, yeah, God's deep longing to be deeply united with us, which is ultimately and most fully realized in the new creation, in the union of the Lamb, Christ and his bride, the church,

and in that beautiful fact, there is no temple in the new creation because God and humans are dwelling together imperfect, kind of unhinded intimacy again. I think that is part of it. But also, I think there's something of our sexual desire. It's a two way our sexual desires teach us about God's desire and longing for us, but also our sexual desires are, are in a sense actually a, would the word be, a kind of a, or rather they're about much more. There's some famous quote, isn't there? You might know who it is. I can't remember which all our desires ultimately are desires for God. And our desires for lesser things before God are actually just expressions of our deeper desire for the Lord. And that's, I think, part of

a healthy Christian sexuality, whether you're married or whether you're single, because none of us, even remarried, will, for none of us, will it be correct to act on all our sexual desire? but actually to kind of redirect those as it were, to recognize it actually at core here. What I'm most longing for actually is the intimate communion with my loving savior and creator. There's something about that actually. It's not ignoring our sexual desires, but it's noticing actually these are actually at root pointing me something even deeper. And what the desire in the kind of immediate is telling me is that I want union and

connection and intimacy with an individual, a human individual, actually to know. then my deepest deeper heart desire, which even that is a picture of or an element of, is actually for unioning with my creator. There's something profound, there's something beautiful in that and something profound about the fact that we can go today. It might be right to us to act on that sexual desire, but we can take that longing, that desire for connection, that desire for intimacy, a desire for beauty to God and connecting with him. So I am always trying to eat healthier, but between travel, work, family and life in general, there are a lot of days when just standing in the kitchen for an hour, it just isn't happening. So I've tried different meal plans

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live momentous.com promo code t-itr. How do you, how do you, this is, I kind of related, and I might be jumping around a little bit, but I've had a few different parents talk to me recently about their kids who are straight, but many, if not most of their friends are LGBTQ. And, you know, these are kids who are faithful.

They love Jesus, grew up in the church, you know, all the things, but they just have such a hard time with a traditional sexual ethic because they look at their friends who are kind and nice and enjoyable and funny, perhaps their relational connection with their LGBTQ friends. It's far superior than maybe their relationships with other Christians or people at the church. and they just, you know, it's not so much a theological argument, but they're just like, I can't, I can't tell my friends. This is like, I would feel so embarrassed to say,

oh, come be a Christian. And by the way, here's what Christianity teaches. And it's become, I don't want to say faith crisis, maybe. But it's like one of the main things that causes these kids to like question. Like, is this whole thing true? because this makes no sense to me. What would you say to either, I don't know, that parent or one of their kids if you're able to talk to them?

Yeah, I think it was spot on that. It's become, hasn't it, one of the big, if not the biggest stumbling blocks, especially younger generations. It used to be the kind of big science questions with the huge stumbling blocks. I think now it's definitely kind of sexuality and gender stuff. Various things kind of might seek to explore on that.

One thing I think, I think there's just the risk that, and you kind of, I always want to make sure people to miss him with this. We've, we've over-applied the Christian sexual ethic. The risk is we hear the Christian sexual ethic, which in God's Good Plan reserves sex for marriages of one man and one woman, and we think therefore every single element of a same-sex relationship, or indeed of someone embracing a kind of cultural, identifying as gay and embracing various cultural things that come with that, that every element of that is wrong and awful. And I don't think that's true. I think

life's more complicated, but actually in a same-sex relationship, there might well be, there will be, if it's a sexual romantic relationship, there'll be elements which fall outside of God's plan, which are therefore sinful. That doesn't mean there's not genuine love, genuine care, genuine self-sacrifice, genuine commitment. It doesn't mean there aren't lots of actually good godly attributes to that relationship. Now, it doesn't justify the elements which scripture would show us sinful, but it does mean what we're not saying to our young people is yes, every single thing about your LGBT friends, about their relationships, is utterly abhorrent to God. I'm not sure that's true. I don't think that's where the disconnect comes, because a young person might

will have, you know, some friends who are in opposite-sex relationships, some are in same-sex relationships, and it might happen to be that in these cases, they find actually the same-sex relationships look much more healthy. These people seem to be much better, actually self-sacrificially loving each other, seems to much more faithful to each other or committed, and that might well be true. And then this is very, real cognitive dissonance for a young person of, you're telling me this relationship over here is terrible because the same-sex relationship. This relationship over here must be great to its opposite sex, and that's not what I'm seeing. And I think just being prepared or being open to the reality that things are much more complex is helpful for them. And so it's helping, I guess, a young person

think, what is it that we're saying is not right or not honoring to God in this relationship, rather than that kind of the whole thing being part of it. And then I think it comes down to some broader kind of foundational things. And even today I was preparing some teaching and thinking how much our culture really is focused around the only basis for ethics being harmed and how much young people are really shaped by that. Young people understand who are shaped about our culture in which if you can't demonstrate or clearly draw out, this is the harmful element of this thing. You can't really say it's wrong.

And to be honest, I think it's hard to, it's certainly any way it's persuasive in modern Western culture to make a harm argument against same-sex relationships. But actually, in a Christian perspective on the world, that's not in itself an issue because Christian ethics is not just about harm. I do believe, because God's a good creator and he wants what's good and what's best for us,

that living out of God's ways will ultimately be the best for our flourishing and the flourishing of those around us. That doesn't necessarily mean that there'll be discrete evidence of or instances of an obvious harm from not living God's way. And again, I think it's about matter of almost the way before we get to sexuality work of helping young person realize actually flourishing life or other, just that following God isn't just about minimizing harm. The ethics isn't just about minimizing harm. And that's what our culture says, because once you take God out of the equation, there's basically nothing else to base ethics on. None of us like being harmed.

So we might as well agree we'll try and reduce harm to each other, even though. though, to be honest, if there's no God, all that is totally illogical. There's no reason you shouldn't harm anyone else and, frankly, try and get what you want through harming other people if there's no God. So I think it's the foundational things, particularly what I was thinking about today, is how we do ethics and that it isn't just about harm. And basically with the young person, just taking them back to the core of what it means to view the world as a Christian, and always ultimate, actually, if I'm talking to the young

person, probably what I'm going to talk about actually is Jesus himself. And always should get us thinking about if Jesus is who he said he is, and if he did go through what the Bible says he is, they came to earth for us, he died in our place, he rose against that we could be forgiven and freed, all the glorious gospel truths. How can it not be that what he says is good for us? How could a God who would do that in the person of his son give us sexual ethics which actually are mean to us or are controlling or are oppressive in some way? And so with a young person, I'm more going to appeal to actually, we can trust God, even when we can't understand why or the outwork is this thing.

And actually, it's looking at the person in Jesus, what God's done in sending his son that most helps us see. This is a God who can be trusted, even if we can't fully compute why he says what he says. So you have to root, obviously. Sounds so obvious, I don't want to say it, but you have to root a Christian sexual ethic in the beautiful gospel narrative. If you detach it from that, then I guess it could be not beautiful, you know.

If it's just a gracious God that says, here's the rules, deal with it. But an incarnational theology of a God who suffered with us, who denied himself with us, who entered into our human narrative, I mean, that kind of changes, I'm saying everything, but it kind of lays the foundation upon which everything else makes at least more sense that if you just say, do this, do that, don't do this, don't do that, you know. Definitely. Yeah, exactly. I think the risk is we take Christian sexual ethics and even our conversations with our young people, hith of them out of context of exactly the broader gospel story, the broader reality just of who God is. I think when we do that, we get all kinds of almost immisprosite something God.

It's half the story in a sense. And actually we need the full story. Yeah, yeah, that's good. Across the world, Christians are paying a high price simply because they follow Jesus. Some are threatened, some are beaten, some are imprisoned or separated from their families. But even in the face of persecution, they remain faithful. In the book, when faith is forbidden, Todd Nettleton shares 40 true stories of courageous believers he has met face-to-face, Christians who continue to follow Christ no matter the cost. Through this book, Todd wants to share their stories with you so that you can be challenged and encouraged and reminded that God is at work in some of the world's darkest places. That's why Voice of the Martyrs would like to send you a copy as a free gift. So to request yours, visit v.com.org in the raw.

That's v.com.org slash in the raw. Get your free copy of when faith is forbidden today and be encouraged by the faith of Christians who are standing firm around the world. So as somebody, I guess I'm assuming people know your story, but maybe they don't. So you're a same-sex attracted, single, a Christian, not in that order. flip that around. How does having, as you said yourself, you know, sexual desire is one of those powerful things we experience. How does having unmet sexual desires shape your own life and walk with God?

Like, how does that, what does that do for your connection or disconnection with God? Yeah, well, it's hard. be honest. I think as most of, I suspect lots of married people would say the same though. I don't think even a healthy sexual life, a sexual aim over a marriage kind of souls all. But yeah, I want to be honest about that because I think actually it's not helpful if we are not honest about these things. If we simply say, oh, it's easy. People hear it and think, well, for these few special people like Andrews, somehow they find it easy, like sex isn't it big deal. But actually with the rest of us, it's really, really hard. But I think more and more, as I've grown up, I've realized just things like,

what I said earlier, how actually our sexual desires so often are kind of hijacking other things. And so the simple things of there is no question for me, I am more sexually tempted when I am stressed, when I'm tired, when I'm feeling lonely, when I'm feeling disconnected. And so often for me, actually, sexual temptation is the temptation to look in a wrong place for a good thing. Connection is good, actually, you know, and comfort. for difficult emotions is, it's a good thing actually. But so often it's about, or so often, yeah, such temptation is us being drawn to those things for, or to the wrong place, sorry, for those things. But I think I've, well, I was going to say, I've got to a

stage where I've realized that it may sound like what's sorted. I have not. I think I've got a bit better at being able to realize, oh, okay, I'm feeling this draw really strongly. And the Lord says it wouldn't be right for me to act on this. But actually, I don't just have to therefore kind of ignore it and push it down. actually I can say, what's going on here? And actually what might be going on is actually, you know what? I haven't really connected meaningfully with friends in quite a few days. What can I do to get some healthy connection right now?

So it's kind of thinking slightly more deeply about those desires. Or my friend and colleague, Ed Shaw, is brilliant. I just talking about the fact that actually so much of our, of sexual attraction is around aesthetics and beauty. And actually beauty is something that we can turn to the Lord and give thanks to him for. And again, I've tried to think about that more. and even to the level of, you know, to not be too personal disclosure, trying to think of what is it specifically that I'm attracted to in certain men? And what does that show me longing for

and how can I turn that to the Lord? So I found it really helpful as a while ago to realize one of the things I get attracted to is physical strength. And I realize that is partly because of insecurities about myself and my body and about growing up as a little boy who I think felt different, it felt quite unsafe, and therefore kind of wanted a sense of masculine protection and actually be able to realize, oh, actually, no, I'm experiencing some kind of sexual attraction to this, no, this guy I saw on the supermarket, say. And actually, that's because there's an example here of masculine physical strength. But actually, I can go to the one who is all powerful and all strong, and who will always use his strength for my good and to protect me and just we had to think more

deeply about our desires and to bring them to the Lord and to help us see, actually, what we're really longing for is most deeply found in the Lord. And that'll take time and practice. And it's, there's a spiritual disabling in a sense. And these things are things we, we grow into and get used to. But I've just found that in a surprising way, in a sense, my sexual desires and sexual temptation I experience have really become areas that help me to know myself better and then help me therefore to connect with God better. And I'm trying to gradually put that into practice. How do you, thank you for all that. Thanks for sharing. so authentically.

Yeah, how do you, I have so many questions just buzzing around in my head because I know I could hear the audience like shouting questions right now. Like, oh, what about this? How do you respond to the assumption that if you live a single life? So you are doing this, right? So you're not speaking in the abstract. But like people often equate singleness with loneliness, which makes sense. Like I don't want to be lonely. If we get married, I won't be lonely.

Or singleness, I don't want to be alone my whole life. And the sense of just curled up at a cold, dark room in the corner all by yourself. Because, I mean, we're not designed to be alone, lonely. Like, that's not a good thing. does singleness, is singleness intrinsically a more lonely experience than being married? And you can't speak personally to the latter, but to the former, what would you, what would you say? The first place I always want to take people to think about that is to Jesus. Jesus is a single guy, celibate guy, never married, never engaged even.

He doesn't seem to be a lonely guy. Everywhere he goes, there are people he has deep, meaningful connection with. He shares life and travels around for the three years we get to read about his life in the Gospels with a close group of 12 at least. Within that, seems to be that the three he was specifically close to, maybe even a best mate in the bloodied disciple. And Jesus shows us not only that singleness must be good, it's not an option for a Christian to say singleness can't be good because Jesus was single. It's not an option really for a Christian to say singleness can't be a place in which you can thrive as a human because Jesus shows us human life lived to the full as a single man.

But I think Jesus gives us a model and gives us, yeah, an example and a hope of singleness doesn't have to mean isolation. And it seems to me that Jesus is really deliberate about that. And then also often want to take people to Jesus teaching on friendship, which think people often overlook. But in John 15, Jesus teaches about friendship. And he teaches us about the greatest love. And he doesn't use romance.

He doesn't use sex. He uses friendship. Right. A man has no man this than this. that he laid down his life for his friend. And that's in the context where he's saying to the disciples and to us by extension that we're to love one another as he has loved us, saying that just after he's washed their feet, saying that the day before I hang on the cross. I feel Jesus really raises the bar of our understanding of what friendship is, well, friendship can

be and friendship should be actually in Christian community particularly, and also what it should mean for us to live as church, as family. And so Jesus both kind of, I guess gives me hope. He gives me an of singleness doesn't have to mean loneliness and isolation. And it gives me a vision of what friendship and living out or identity as church as family can look like that actually it's relationships with serious, experienced and expressed love. You then are the next step because it's all we're able to hold up the example of the teaching. So what about the reality? And I think we're going to be really honest that we're in a cultural context. Certainly I am, I think in the States would be as well where that's not easy to do. I don't think we're a culture that values friendship

particularly highly. I don't think we're a culture which easily helps us have kind of patterns of life where we can have those meaningful relationships. But that means that we, especially singles, but as all Christians, need to be really deliberate about that. And in a sense, what I tend to say to people, or I think how I think about it is there is a genuine risk that singleness can be a lonely experience. And we need to not be dismiss of that, not notice that. And we need to make sure we are listening to singles in our church families when they're telling us singleness is a really difficult part of my life. But I also want to cast faith of it doesn't have to be the inevitable reality. It might be the reality of some people for some time, but that's actually something for

us to as community come around and work on, not actually just to say that's just what singleness is. And all of that is about prioritise and friendship, giving it time, being people who are prepared to be open or honest, that people can actually get to know us. One of the best ways to more deeply connect with someone is if you're honest about yourself, they're like to be honest about them and then you begin to be deeply connected. Things like for me, one of the most live given things is at different points in my life, having had kind of regular routines with friends, actually. So it's not kind of, oh, I've got nothing in the diary when my next seeing someone.

Actually, it's I know every time, same time of the week, that meal or whatever it might be, I'm seeing these people. There's a regularity to that. And that makes a big, big difference. So my overall answer is, yeah, I want to cast a vision which Jesus gives us. So singleness doesn't have to mean loneliness. But then I kind of want to exhort us all to play our, part in actually putting that into practice and do what Jesus calls to do.

He just loved one of those. He has loved us to take friendships seriously such that singleness can not have to mean loneliness. Are you an introvert or extrovert or somewhere in between? I think, you know, I think I'm about in the middle. When I was younger, I definitely thought I was very introverted. I now look back and realize we lived in a village that was hard to get many places and realize I was just a very kind of insecure, rather messed up little boy who struggled to connect to people.

I spent so much time on my own and I think I convinced myself as an introvert. I realize now I'm much more extroverted than I think I'm. So I was at a conference last week for a few days and people from my church. And most of them were just like really kind of wiped out after the first kind of day and a half. And I said, it's great. All these people. It's lovely. Yeah, you're done.

Yeah. So I think I'm about in the middle though. I need a bit of both. And actually I'm most happy with a small group of very close friends because I like to go deep. I don't like chit chat. I don't like the surface level stuff. What's the point, honestly? Let's bear ourselves.

otherwise what's the point in talking? So that's what I'm most happy. I'm most recharge. I think, yeah, a small group of very close friends I can be real honest with. Because I've heard someone say like,

oh yeah, those celibate, same-sex contracting Christians, like they're all a bunch of introverts that love to sit in their room and read books. And they're all kind of, yeah, very intellectual.

And like, they don't really, they're fine being single. But for other people, it just doesn't work. Which I, I feel the, the practicality of that.

I think that assumptions not true. But it is, you know, practically, I'm like, okay, I can see where it's coming from. I mean, obviously, it's not like a necessarily theological assessment. Yeah, yeah. But I guess for those of us who are more extroverted but single, there are some maybe particular challenges, and we've got to think about how to work around that. So I do have to work hard at finding the ways to be comfortable my own

and to fill time my own. But then, of course, there'll be people who are really introverted who get who also have the opposite challenge. They have to work out, how do I leave my marriage in a healthy way, how do I honour my spouse while being really introverted, you know, especially if actually they're married to someone who's really extroverted, you know. So all these things, it's so easy for us to think to think about singleness and think, oh, there's so many struggles, so many challenges, all this stuff. I'm not to realise, I think the reality is the same is true of marriage. They're different struggles and challenges. And actually it's just that human life's quite difficult.

But, obviously, God's got good things for all of us. And we learn actually how, we can throw within the premises that he's given up. Yeah, an introvert married to an extrovert. I don't want to say this challenge is exactly the same as this challenge, but like you said, every situation could have its unique challenges given the different personality makeups that are involved. Yeah. Do you have, if I can ask, do you have right now like a really good network of friends that that good intimate two or three or four that you don't have to just chit-chat? it's, you feel like fulfilled with. Yeah, yeah, and I feel really blessed. I mean, it's funny in it, friendships ebb and flow. I know, I got out to a deep and honest. So my friendships

at the moment are slightly more complicated. But, but yeah, no, do I have some friends, one family with a few kids. I see at least once a week normally. Others I see less frequently. And what I try to do actually is, I was really helped by somebody a few years ago, encourage me to value a range of different types of friendships. So I do have the kind of few families that I get to share a lot of their family life with them in out of their house quite a lot, see them quite regularly. I have other friends actually who are the friends I go out for a meal or drink with best frequently. We have a laugh. Just try to value different types of friendship, different patterns of friendship. But yeah, no, I do. I think I'm very blessed in that.

I always try and be sensitive and aware about that. As I talk about singleness, as I travel and teaching, I try and cast a vision of this can really work. And I often talk about my experience of singleness, I think, means my life is more relationally rich than many of my married friends because of the freedom of singleness gives me to develop those more friendships. And I want to cast a vision to really give people hope, but also be sensitive to reality. That won't be everyone's reality in that moment when I'm sharing that, you know. So I want to kind of recognize, recognize both sides of that. And for me, interestingly, that's one of the reasons why I live where I do. So I live, in a sense, in many ways, a very illogical place. The little town I live

is most of the young families are young children and retired people. There are very few people at my age and singular stuff. I love things like music and theatre and art and culture. It makes much more sense for me to live in a city. It's a very illogical place from which to be travelling the country loads, which I do. But actually, I stay here because I'm so well connected. And actually, it's worth the extra hour. So as to every journey to get home after I've been elsewhere in the country

because actually I've been here a long time and I'm well-rooted. And my friend had true, I mentioned him earlier, he says this thing, he says, especially as a single, but in general, he says, pick a place and stay there. Unless God calls you elsewhere, stay there. Because meaningful friendships take a long time to build. And there's something so precious about those long term friendships. And I'm, so I'm actually in the church I grew up in. I was in elsewhere in the country for a few years. But I now realize, there are people who've known me all my life. And there are friends who I've grown up with and are still around them. That is such a privilege to have people I've been friends with for decades. who therefore I can feel totally comfortable with. If I was moving to a different part of the country every five years to chase my career or whatever, that would not happen. It doesn't mean that's wrong to do, but I think friendship is worth prioritizing is a good reason to stay in a place. And that's kind of at the moment at least what I'm choosing to do.

Yeah, yeah. Have you had a season or seasons where you haven't had rich community? And how did you, if you have, how did you deal with that? Yeah, that's a great question. I think not hugely, and I think I've been hugely blessed in that. I mean, COVID, obviously, it was hard, lockdown. So I do live with people. So I wasn't totally isolated. But that, that for all of us, didn't it introduce kind of new, new challenges in that way. I think when I first move back to where I now live, I mean, I was where to study for quite a few years. There was no,

it takes time to build up meaningful friendships. So at that point, dude. For me, the key point would been though when I was in my early 20s, I was studying. And it was the main and the biggest kind of crisis of faith I've had and crisis around my sexuality. And I was really kind of thinking, can I, can I follow Jesus as someone who experienced his same sex attraction? I knew what God said. I wasn't kind of asking that afresh. I was asking, can I do this? And I realize now that was mainly loneliness. And the thing that brought me out of it really was there were two families particularly who I was friends with in the church who just I think saw the need I had for connection and who really sought to deepen our friendship to draw me into their homes more, into their lives

more, into the lives of their children more. And I talk about often the fact that the real breakthrough for me was not just knowing intellectually singleness can work and doesn't have to mean loneliness, but actually beginning to experience, oh, actually, it would be possible to live probably the rest of my life as since we're single, but to really feel like I have a really experience of family and people who really know me in meaningful connection. And I think that was so formative for me, actually, maybe one of the reasons I've been quite blessed since to not particularly have seasons without that.

I think that's made me so deliberate and proactive about that, actually. So even like recently, there's a relative to new family in my church. And I thought, you feel like the kind of people I connect with well, the kind of home I'd like to be in. And so I basically started a little gentle strategy of, I'm going to talk to them each week, and I've got an invite around, we'd be doing with a friendship. It's just like being quite deliberate, actually.

I'm not going to sit around and someday realize, oh, my friends have moved to I've got no friends, because I'm being really deliberate about keeping on developing friendships. And not just seeking to find people to be a good friend to me, but also seeking how can I be a good friend to other people? Because that's how relationships best grow. Yeah. That's good. So you have to be intentional and not just wait for people to come to you. Yeah.

What would you say to people that are in a situation, they're single, maybe same sex attracted or not, but they're, they just don't have that kind of. friendship or community around them. They're finding it hard to connect with people. You know, it's a two-way street. Maybe they are trying, but either it's not reciprocated or maybe they just don't have people that kind of two to three to four really awesome, deep, meaningful relationships, you know, maybe there's people they could hang out with, but it's just not really scratching the itch, if you know what I mean.

Yeah. Do you move or do you try harder or do you just be satisfied with what you have? kinds of friends you have available. Yeah, well, I mean, I'd have so much sympathy if you with that situation. That is genuinely, genuinely hard. And I think in the modern world, I say, because we're not good at doing friendship, not prioritising it. I think that sadly probably is a common experience. Even with people who want to prioritize friendship, it is a say two-way, two-way street. And in a sense, yeah, what are you doing that situation? Every situation is different, isn't you know? I mean, one obvious thing, but true thing is

to pray because the Lord answers prayer. I remember when I moved away for uni, I prayed a really specific prayer. This is a bit sad and, you know, a bit me. I really, I prayed for someone with who I could play piano duets and I'm still friends of that person. I stay there a few times a year and we still play piano duets together. And it's really nice and this is a lovely example of it was such a specific prayer. It was slightly frivolous. I didn't need that kind of friendship, but the Lord did provide it. And just, you know, we'd want to, yeah, increase people's faith that the Lord answers prayers and let's not give up and seeking in for those things. So definitely I would say pray. Definitely I would say keep on going and don't give up on the kind of pushing for it, trying, making the effort.

I do really believe the best way to find good friends is to seek to be a good friend. And so just being kind of deliberate about that. I think don't be afraid to be a little bit pushy and to kind of test out the waters by, you know, see if you can push your way into spending some time with someone. I think that's okay. Lots of people are just bit too, like on the back foot, not going to kind of, no, take some proactive steps. And especially a single person, I think the risky single person is to sit around waiting for people to befriend us, waiting for the church to look after us. And I get it is really hard, especially a single person, it's really hard, like, to approach a merry couple or family and suggest spending time together.

But sometimes we just got to do it. And so being proactive definitely is key. And getting involved as much as one can in church communities, you know, often friendships are formed through serving together in the church or getting involved in some kind of miniature of church you're doing or in kind of whatever kind of smaller context your church runs in terms of community groups, credit groups, home groups, whatever it might be your church does. Often it's so smaller context, we can really find people to connect to it. And so making sure using individuals are really plugged into church, all those things. I think our context God can then use to connect us with people.

Yeah. I think it can sometimes be a lot harder for married couples, all, especially older with kids. I mean, people in my situation. You know, I've got two kids at home, two out of the house. And, you know, partly because you spent so many years just keeping your head above water investing in your marriage, investing in your kids, you kind of lose the muscles of friendship, you know? And when you get a bunch of people together who are in the same stage, they just like, they don't know how to hang out with other people and just have. those kind of deep, meaningful connections the way they used to back in their early 20s,

you know, before they're married. And yeah, sometimes buried couples can just be awkward relationships. But yeah. And they get lonely. And there's tons of loneliness, obviously, among people who are married sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I would want to cast, again, cast vision past, cast hope, that's a place that single people can help other people. You know, we, we are singles, we might be the same age and kind of life experience, but have had a different experience of friendship. We actually maybe there's a role for singles to help those who've got out of the habit if we're able to do friendship

to help others actually and to share something of that. And also, with that reminds me, one of the slightly ton of cheek but also true tips I give to single people is to pick on the people with especially younger kids. People younger kids are often stuck at home, feeling quite isolated, longing for adult community. If there's people in your church, just ask, can I pop round when either

and I have a cup of tea or can I bring dinner around to you? Something will bless them. Often like it's just a really good kind of, I was supposed to say sitting targets. That's a terrible thing to say. They're really good people to seek to bless with your friendship and they might be really good friends to you. And often I think those friendships of people

who are in very different life situations are actually really good. It's much more practical for a single person to be close friends with a family of young kids, say, often actually, then for two families, young kids, because they've all got their own routines, the only things going on.

So not being afraid to seek to connect to people and to approach people who are in a very different life experience from you, because that actually can work brilliantly. Yeah. Let's switch gears a little bit because you have a new book out, getting God's perspective, a short introduction, to world these sexuality and gender. You've written quite a bit on sexuality and gender.

How many books have you written now? Half a dozen? number five technically. Number five, okay. So I'm curious, because worldviews are, I would assume, are so foundational to everything, and you say this in the book, how have you gotten away with writing four other books on this topic with that directly addressing worldviews? Or maybe you did, but didn't, you know, put it in the title.

But yeah, how is this book different from or, contributing to the conversation in ways that your other work didn't. Well, it's funny. I think getting away with is a good term. I think, I think 10 years ago, we get away with that, even maybe five years ago, I think what I realized and why I've read the book is, I think loads of people, including loads of Christians, don't have firm Christian worldview foundations in place. And that's why we're having some real difficulties of helping people understand, embrace, live out Christian teaching and sexuality and gender. So you're absolutely right that actually these worldview foundations are most foundational beliefs are the literal foundations in which all our other beliefs are built. So if you don't have a Christian perspective on things like authority, freedom, identity, progress, it's very hard actually to understand, to accept them to live out Christian teaching and sexuality. And I think we've done too much assuming that people, including people in our churches, have those foundations firmly in place. And we just not talked about them enough.

and therefore when we try to teach about sexuality and gender, some of the reasons that's been really difficult is because those foundations aren't in place. And I think that's a combination of things. That's partly probably a bit of a discipleship weakness in many churches at least. That's partly some people are coming to faith wonderfully with almost no Christian background. They don't come with basic Christian worldview type stuff already in place. And that's a difference from a few decades ago. And so I think it's an interesting thing the moment we're in, in a sense, that we need to do more explicit open work on worldviews.

And really what's made me do it and do it in this order is I've realized so many, so much more, so many of the conversations having with people about sexuality and gender, the questions they're asking, the objections they're raising even, they're kind of not about sexuality and gender. When you drill it down, really, it is,

they think very differently about identity, say, or about authority or about freedom. And actually the issue isn't up here in sexuality and gender. The issue is down here or freedom and identity. And I think that's only increasingly becoming the case. And in a sense, what I'm trying to do in the book, it says shine the light on what needs to be there but isn't always. And so you're right.

It's a slightly funny order of doing things. But I think it's because I realize there might be a problem down here and the foundations level we actually need to talk about and actually need to address. Okay. So I'm familiar. I mean, most people are familiar with you with the basic worldview categories, you know, or some people use the grid, creation, fall, redemption, or sin and God and creation.

You know, there's these kind of familiar categories. But you routed off a couple that aren't often part of the discussion, freedom and progress. Can you unpack a Christian worldview of? freedom and progress and how it relates to sexuality and gender? Sure, yeah. And the way I've done in the book basically is to pick the seven topics, seven worldview foundations. Okay. Which kind of are key questions, I think all worldviews answer. And I've isolated them because I think they're the ones that are particularly relevant sexuality and gender and other

cultural issues actually. I think it's particularly helpful framework. There's also a different frameworks you can use for worldviews, as you say. I think this one works well for this topic. So freedom, you know, I think the kind of secular Western culture says that, you're most free when you can follow your desires with nothing holding you back. And I think when it comes to sexuality, I think this sexual revolution has basically been an attempt to give a new answer to what's it mean to be truly sexually free. And it has quite successfully embedded in modern Western society the answer that you're most sexually free when you can follow your sexual desires with nothing holding you back. It then does see the need for kind of a caveat of

harm and the caveat of the need for consent. But basically the message is you can have whatever sexual relations you want so long as everyone's consenting and no one is getting heart. And that's why people then hear Christian teaching, which says that actually sexual expressions should be reserved for one man, one woman in marriages. And instinctively, people think, well, that sounds really oppressive and really unfair. That's taking away my freedom. I should be a free being able to act on my desires, however I want. And so it's two just radically different competing visions freedom, is freedom following all my desires and nothing holding me back, or is freedom actually what the Christian worldview is say is living as my creator has designed and created me to live?

And all of these foundations, they all come back to, is there a God or is there not? And is God our creator or is there no Creator God? That changes everything. All these other points can have flow from that. If there's a God who made us, it totally makes sense that we as creatures of the creator are most free, not when we follow all our desires, but actually, and we follow the plan, the purpose, the design of our creator. That's true in all areas of life, including in sexuality. But if we don't have a firmly Christian understanding of freedom as being, we're most free and we follow our creator's plan,

Christian teaching does seem oppressive, harmful even, does seem to be taken away our freedom. And that's not a common objection. And again, I think that's where often the issue isn't about sexuality or about gender. The issue is about something underlying it, something underpinning it. And I think we look at culture. I think there's wide recognition now, even among secular authors that, or secular thinkers, the sexual revolution hasn't delivered. The utopia we were told would arrive if we embrace this vision of sexual freedom has not

delivered. And arguably, actually, many more people are enslaved by sex now, probably than were before. Think of the huge problems with pornography addiction, which starts as an expression of freedom, I can follow my desires, I can embrace my desires, I'm going to enact my freedom by, acting on my sexual desires, by going and assuming pornography, very quickly actually it becomes slavery. And there are lots of people realising that. So I think freedom, I mean, it's one of the most important, I think partly because also I think younger generations, Gen Z, I think general will be the same. Freedom really is one of the buzzwords, the buzz themes for them. So we've got to be able to engage with it well. And when it comes to progress, you know,

I think the, sorry, do you want to come in there? I was going to say that you just, you've, I think You've obviously read Louise Perry's book on the sexual revolution. There's a basic, you know, secular writer, British journalist that sounds close to like a, almost sounds like a Christian critique of the sexual revolution. It's not at all, but I mean, basically said, yeah, it completely failed. And when these aren't her words of my recollection of what she said, like when you have this kind of unrestrained freedom, so to speak. women and children are always going to be the ones who are the most harmed. And she starts tons of stats and just, yeah, it hasn't produced.

It's easy for a Christian from like an apologetic standpoint to say, you know, look at how bad secular society is or whatever. But it's another thing for somebody who is, I think she would even identify as like a feminist and, you know, secular thinker to kind of say, just do the math. just look at kind of where we're at and it has not delivered what we thought of would. What's interesting about her, actually. So she wrote that book. She, exactly, I was doing all the stats show this thing hasn't delivered.

It's not good. And her proposed solution was pretty close to the Christian section. Not totally. And she acknowledged, actually. And so what was interesting is to take us back to earlier conversations, she was kind of beginning to see some of the beauty, actually, of the Christian perspective of things.

and actually that if we lived out this bias as a society, it would be much better, especially for the flourishing of women and children. She then became somewhat interested in faith. And I heard a podcast the other day when they were saying she is now identifying as a Christian. That's a lovely example actually where someone has seen the beauty. I think she's on the classic journey

that many of these kind of more intellectual journeys into the faith the moment are of seeing actually, there is something beautiful in this. If this was true, that would actually be quite a good thing. And then get into point of, I kind of want this to be true. actually. And then I think her journey, as is for a lot of people at the moment, I think she started going along to a church. And often it is as people start engaging in some of the practices of

the faith, they begin to actually step into it. And experience, the experiential seems to really key at the moment at how God is breaking to people's lives. And my understanding is, yeah, according to this Even Jekyll Alliance podcast, I have the day, she would now identify as a Christian. So it's just nice, the beauty is there. And the beauty does draw people actually, eventually to follow Jesus. Wow. Wow, that's wild. I mean,

Augustine had a similar experience, wasn't it? It was his, you know, he'd probably be diagnosed as a sex addict today, you know, prior to his conversion.

It seemed that kind of crisis of his sexuality that was a key part in his Christian journey. I'm not, I know hardly anything about the dude, but I did read

his confessions that I think, that's true. But anyway, yeah, progress. Progress. What's a Christian worldview of progress? Yeah, this one I think is really important. So I think we live in a secular Western culture, which tells us that history is based on this inevitable journey towards progress. So there is this kind of upward trajectory towards good. Things are in general always kind of getting better, which kind of leaves you with the conclusion that new perspectives and dominant perspectives must be right. And one of the ways this kind of manifests itself is the phrase being on the wrong

side or the right side of history. It was a particular favourite, I think, of Obama, but, you know, those people have used it. And people would say it today about stuff I would teach. They would tell me, my perspective on sexuality puts me on the wrong side of history, and one day history will kind of prove me to be wrong. That's all resting on this idea of an inevitable trajectory of progress, which partly is rooted in some philosophical thinking in the last few hundred years. Partly, I think, is just like, look over the last 500 years, it's easy to think history is a story of progress. The amount of change that's being in the last 500 years, much of it, most of us have said say, it's for the better. It's easy to think, oh, yeah, looks like history is

inevitably just a journey of things getting better. And when it comes to sexuality, therefore people kind of adopt these dominant views, new views and stuff. A Christian view, I think, is much more nuanced. I think a Christian view says some things that have thought of as progress, culture are good and some are not. And actually, we assess that not by how things progress, but what's the word of God saying. God is the one who knows what's right. God is the one who knows what's best. Just because people say, well, this is the result of the journey of progress, doesn't mean it's necessarily right. And that means there are things we can and should celebrate, things like the abolition of slavery, things like that recognition of women should have equal

rights with men are actually, of course, built ultimately in biblical principles. And as we assess those changes by the word of God. We can say this is good progress that we can celebrate and that, as I say, is rooted in a Christian view. There'll be other things, things like the wide acceptance of same-sex marriage, things like the wide acceptance of abortion, that actually as we look at the scriptures, we'd have to say actually these aren't actually in line of what God says is right. This isn't progress. It's change, but it's not actually a good progress. And the Christian view does believe we are headed to somewhere good, just the secular view does. But the Christian view isn't that it's this kind of inevitable on the whole upward journey, upward trend

towards that. The Christian view is ultimately the good comes when Jesus returns. Actually, ultimately, everything that is wrong will we put to rights? All the things we hate about in the world and that bring us pain and sorrow, will we put the right? But not because we humans are really clever and we're gradually making things better and better because one day the Lord Jesus Christ will return or bring with him a new creation, we'll put all things to right. So the Christian view is somewhat more nuance. That means when it comes to things like sexuality and gender, we don't just go along with the flow. We don't say, well, because, no, I think most rest of the nations now have legalized same-sex marriage. In reality, for most non-Christians or non-people who are not religious in any way,

there's no real question over the morality of same-sex relationships, certainly here in the UK. We don't say just because of that, well, obviously, that's right. Obviously, we need to feel the the right side of history and be with them. We say, now, what is the word of God say? And I think that's, again, really important as I think about young people. It happens. I mean, think about this today and some stuff I've been preparing of, I think young people grow up absorbing this message from culture that history is his journey of progress. You want to be in the right side of history. Christians are often actually old-fashioned behind the curve on the wrong side of history. And actually, we need to say no, actually God is the one who tells us what's right. And I'll really a conversation

of how do we help a young person really struggling with what biblical teaching is saying, compared to what they're seeing with their friends. This is one of those many foundations that I think can help process, help them process them of that. Does it make sense when you explain it? Do people are like, oh, that kind of makes sense? Or is it hard to convince people? Because would you tell me? I'm like, oh, it makes total sense, you know?

I think so. It's funny, this book was different. Most books I teach for quite a long time, and then I write them. This one, I wrote it. And the manuscript was in, and I started teaching it. I remember going to the first one thinking, I really hope this works. We often have it didn't. And it did.

So I think people are resonating with that. I think, you know, I think this is all very relevant to younger generations. There it's relevant to all of us. And I think parents are resonating with it. There would be, you know, you could get really deep into this stuff. And there could be good pushbacks and critiques to everything I'm saying. And the book says. And I think there are good responses to that.

The book is, you know, deliberately short, accessible. I'm not trying to go to that depth. I'm not even sure as most I'm the person best qualified to go to that depth. But I think for most of us who are just seeking to follow Jesus, and to love our neighbors. I think actually this is the kind of level which is just really helpful to think about. And I do think there's a sense of resonance.

I think people can resonate maybe with kind of these analyses of the world around us and also can resonate with, actually there is something, again, beautiful, something better, something maybe a lot more life-giving in the Christian approach and perspective. The book is Getting God's Perspective, a short Christian introduction to worldview, sexuality, and gender.

Andrew, do you have a few more minutes? I want to ask you, do you have a few more minutes? Sure. Yeah. Okay. I want to, okay. And this will be part of our extra innings portion of our episode. I want to ask you about gay identity.

I ask David Bennett about this a couple weeks ago on the podcast. And I think, yeah, I think you guys will probably, I don't know. I'm curious. I think you'll overlap a lot, but might have some differences in perspective because you don't. Well, I'll let you answer. I'm not going to put what you're about. So if you want to, from my audience, if you want to check out our extra Indians conversation on get identity, head over to patreon.com forward slash theology and raw or click on the link in the show notes. Okay.