Theology in the Raw - Should Pastors Confess their Sins? Dr. Jamin Goggin

Episode Date: November 20, 2025

Join the Theology in the Raw Patreon for as little as $5/month to get access to premium content. Jamin Goggin (PhD, University of Aberdeen) is an associate professor at Talbot School of Theology at Biola University and the director of the Healthy Pastor Initiative at Finishing the Task. He is the co-author of The Way of the Dragon or the Way of the Lamb and the author of the recently released book Pastoral Confessions: The Healthy Path to Faithful Ministry.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

If we're going to invite people into this kind of gospel practice in their life, that there is actually healing to be found in presenting the truth of our sin before the Lord. If we're going to really meaningfully invite people into that, I think we have to be people who know that way ourselves and know what it is to live by grace in our own lives, not just commending a gospel to them that we don't know experientially. Hey, friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology and Raw. My guest today is Dr. James. Gagan, who has a Ph.D. from the best university in the world, that is University of Aberdeen,

and he is Associate Professor at Talbot School of Theology at Ballet University and the director of the Healthy Pastor Initiative at finishing the task. He is the co-author of The Way of the Dragon or The Way of the Lamb, an outstanding book, and the author of his recently released book, Pastoral Confessions, The Healthy Path to Faithful Ministry. I got my copy right here for those you're watching on YouTube. Really, really enjoyed this conversation with Jamin. He's incredibly brilliant, has tons of pastoral experience. Most of all, I just found him to be incredibly down to earth and humble. Really enjoy this conversation, I think you will too. So please welcome back to the show, the one and only Dr. Jamin Gagan. Jamin, good to have you on Theology and

Ra. Thanks for taking time to do this. Really excited to talk to you. I've enjoyed me with you. So you were a pastor for how many years before you became a professor? Yeah, 20 years, full-time local church ministry pastor in kind of every role imaginable and almost every ecclesial environment imaginable, at least in the U.S. I was a youth pastor at a small non-denom church. I was kind of associate pastor who oversaw youth and family in various things at a Lutheran church. Oh, wow. Yep.

And then I worked at Saddleback Church, mega church here in SoCal, as a spiritual formation pastor running retreats and doing spiritual retreats for folks for several years. And then I was a lead pastor of a church in San Diego. So kind of runs the gamut over the course of 20 years. What was it like being at Saddleback? I mean, that is 30,000 people or something.

I mean, one of the biggest churches in America, at least. Yeah. What was that like? What's the cultural? Yeah. Yeah, it's been several years from me since I worked there. We've been a decade. But yeah, my story was Saddleback, I think, is a fairly unique one in that I was born and

raised there. Okay. And my parents really are charter members of the church. So I had a experience growing up in the life of that church. I think it's fairly unique, maybe in a megachurch environment. I knew all the pastors. I was friends with the pastor's children. I was in the pastor's homes, Rick Warren, in particular.

but really all the kind of found the group of earliest kind of executive pastors and leaders in the church, I had personal relationships with them. So when the church started to really explode and grow, in large measure in connection with the release of kind of Rick's two books, that kind of purpose-driven church and then purpose-driven life, right? Like you could kind of mark those moments as moments of real significant growth in the life of the church in some ways. It was kind of slow rapid growth over a long course of time actually there. But those were two real inflection points. By the time the church kind of exploded in size in those years, my teenage years,

it still always felt like a small church, a community church. I was one of the brats in the green room. You know, I was the kid that on Sunday did youth group and then went up to big church and maybe went back to another youth group service. I was just church all Sunday morning, and I loved it. And people I knew everywhere. And so for me, there was a real, yeah, a rich relational experience there. I was really invested in, cared for well.

And so at any rate, when I went off to college, went to seminary, worked at other churches for several years. It was quite a while until I actually worked at Saddleback. It wasn't until, goodness, maybe over a decade. after I had graduated. I came from high school. I came back to Salba to work. And at that point, in many ways, it was a very different church. A lot of, a lot of new folks on staff. But for me, it was a coming home and a really sweet time to reinvest in the church that had been so meaningful in my own formation, where I had come to learn the gospel, where I'd been baptized. And my parents were still members at the time. It's where I met my wife in high school.

right so there was this real sweetness actually about coming back to serve and to bless my my home church for about five years before I transition on yeah so I'm fighting back a sneeze right now if I do I'll try not to blow your ears off in the microphone okay you're okay you gave me fair warning so I'll brace myself all right here we go so mega churches um I would say you know people have mixed reviews right I mean, some people think they're the greatest thing in the world. Other people think they're of the devil. I'm sure you've had pros and cons. Like, when people ask you, what's your thought on megachurches? How do you respond to that? Yeah, I guess I feel my primary response tends to be hopefully marked by humility in that, I would say, I don't know.

I can't tell you about mega churches. Okay. I can tell you about working at Saddleback Church, which I know was a megachurch. I think I have had enough friends that have worked at other megachurches to know that I think at times that move to kind of frame megachurches with kind of all the same qualities, values, characteristics, cultural dynamics is I think pretty unfair and unreasonable. And it would be like saying, you know, well, you're in a medium-sized church, and we all want to know what medium-sized churches

are like. What is that? So please don't hear me wrong. I don't want to dismiss, I think, you know, some of the maybe research and work that has been done on commonalities and common dynamics of megachurches and large churches. But I think what I would just say is, I've had enough friends work at other megachurches and heard about their experience and their experience of what it was like to work within that maybe ecosystem of a large institution to know, oh, you know, sometimes there's similarities, but oftentimes there's like significant differences. And again, I think my experience also, I just want to recognize as fairly unique. I grew up in Rick Warren's household.

My weekends as a teenager were spent hanging out in his home. So then when I go to work for him, there's this kind of high level of relationality and investment. And I recognize that that is fairly unique and even was unique for many folks who worked at Saddleback with me who didn't have near the kind of interaction and relationship and relational equity that I did with Rick. And so I think for me working at Saddleback was, I was really, I really felt blessed and kind of commissioned to embrace my vocation and its fullness there. And I really felt like I was given a ton of just remarkable freedom to invest in life of the church in ways that I really felt passionate about and felt called to. So, yeah, I think, hopefully, I'm willing to keep exploring that with you. I don't mean

to dodge the question, but I, not at all. And it wasn't, it wasn't at all gotcha. Like, I would say there was a season when I was kind of intrinsically like mega church as a concept is like not church, you know. But I backed off that a bit, primarily because I speak it. I've spoken at several megachurches, gotten into leadership. And, yes, the stereotype of it just being, you know, cranking out services. All you cared about is just putting out a good show. You don't care about the poor and it's all about performance. Like, I'm sure that, for sure, that exists, probably in any size church. But I've met some of the most humble, godly, caring pastors that are are pastors of megachurches who don't think highly of themselves.

I know several megachurches, you know, one I'm thinking in particular in, in, in Missouri, that gives away a ton of money to the poor. They're very involved in their community. They've helped tons of people get out of, like, medical debt, and they're just a massive positive influence in the community. They have a positive reputation. The pastors are humble, you know. And so I think, I don't think size determines, size alone determines the health of the church.

You know, I think each, each size can have its own unique challenges. But I don't think just because you have a small church, therefore you're not going to have, you know, the problems that a megachurch might have. Yeah, I think that's right. And I definitely observed that at Soutabite during my years there, both my developmental years growing up and my leaders there, my leaders there working. as a pastor, that church profoundly generous, focused on the community, remarkably compassionate and caring in really like, kind of like put your money where your mouth is, kind of ways. And I mean, the legacy of celebrate recovery out of that place is remarkable. But when I was there working, they have what was called the Peace Center. And every day, there were many

people cycling through that place to get all kinds of, you know, basic health medical services for free, food, resources, in a whole host of ways. Even some legal services. Peace Center. I thought you said Peace Center. I thought it was a name for like the bathroom. Oh, boy. I'm Roger Clarified. I don't want anybody else hearing it that way. The Peace Center. I roll those twoers together probably too quickly on my tongue. Yeah. So I just, I watched a church that as you're describing cared for the marginalized, the forgotten. And in really beautiful ways. And, you know, maybe the last thing I would just say is over the years I've often, I think because of some of my writing, in particular probably the way of a dragon, the way of a lamb, I tend to get questions about, oh, you wrote a book

about power in the church and you worked at a megachurch. Like, so, what? What weren't you saying in the book? And what did you? And what I would say is, oh, man, I, in my experience as a pastor, and again, I can only speak to my experience. But for me, the temptation for kind of power to control and power for self-glary, oh, boy, it was just as much there in a room, a living room of 40 high schoolers hanging on my every word as a 22-year-old getting started in ministry as it was.

was it at Saddleback as I was leading kind of large retreats and given a bigger platform of opportunity to speak and to write in some ways there. And so I don't want to say that the size of the platform or the size of the influence and opportunity can't exponentially, well, can't kind of exponentialize the impact of unhealthy forms of power and worldly power. It can. But all to say, you can embrace worldly power and embrace. and embrace leveraging the church for your own glory in a medium-sized church in a small church and a youth group meeting in a living room just as much as you can in a large church environment. And so I think sometimes that's often, I think, the concern or the critique.

And I understand because that may be some people's experience and I don't want to dismiss that. But all I can speak to is my own kind of journey with being tempted with power of ministry and say, oh boy the temptation was real there for me especially in my young years you know when things started going well and used ministry me used to start growing a little bit you know you count the numbers that you have and if you go from 15 to all sudden 45s yeah right all right you know that's your reference point so yeah that that maybe some other thoughts and reflections yeah i've only had a couple conversations with rick warren um one on the podcast and one is that the only one. No, we've had some email exchanges and stuff. That guy has more bandwidth in energy

that anybody I've, I don't, he's like inhuman. Is that real? I mean, I don't think he sleeps I don't think he needs a lot of sleep, but that guy just, he told me that there was one Christmas where I think he, he personally preached like 17 services or something. It probably got up early the next morning and started writing a book or something. The guy is just insane. Is that, is that reality? Yeah, what I would say is, you know, in recent years, you know, just I think with age and as for as for all of us, there's been some ways he's kind of had to slow down and he's had

some more limitations. But yeah, my experience of him over the course of a lifetime is, he just has a motor unlike anybody. And, you know, having myself now, 20 years in pastor or ministry, having myself now been in several contexts where I preach three times or even four times. I just recently was guest preaching in a church invited to preach up in Sacramento and I preached three services. And before the third service, Preston, I was sitting in the back in the green room.

And I was doing one of those like, all right, all right. Okay. You can do it. And I, and what's interesting is my mind went to Rick. This is funny. You bring this up. My mind went to Rick. And I thought, man, how do he do that? How do you do that? Because every week. Yeah, because every, my experience grown up, you know, four or five services was just standard. In fact, when I was growing up, it was five services, I believe, every Sunday. And it wasn't like that was all he was doing. As you mentioned, writing books, leading. And whatever. always known of him. And these are the maybe quieter parts that others don't see, but I knew him to be the guy who showed up in the hospital room late at night with people in the life of the

church. And that's still the case. And so, you know, he, any rate, yeah, he just has a remarkable motor, unlike, unlike maybe anybody I've ever met, actually. I mean, I met some pretty high energy, high engagement, high capacity people, but I think Rick might beat them all. And I think he's got a list of, I don't know, thousands of people that he prays for. Oh, yeah. And that's, yeah, it's, I was at a small little pastor gathering, maybe 30 people. This is probably, gosh, maybe 20 years ago. And at the end, he wanted a picture with every single one of us because he said, I'm going to pray for you. And I remember somebody that knew him kind of nudged me and says he he actually will and he'll remember your name for sure yeah no like i in fact you know i i do still

work with him now in a different capacity i run something called the healthy pastor initiative with his his ministry finishing the task and um i i do retreats for pastors and gonna have sole care work for pastors helping pastors finish the race of ministry well alongside this this objective of finishing the task great commission but but he i mean just a few weeks ago. I'm in a meeting with him and the conversation is, and when I'm at these conferences and I'm doing these things, I want to make sure we're, you know, we're capturing photos of folks and getting their information. And this, this isn't, I can tell you, having known them in my whole life, this isn't primarily for, you know, marketing purposes or, you know, email dump.

He's, he's wanting to maintain connection with people. And he's wanting to maintain connection on people for the sake of care, but primarily for the sake of prayer. And he still has that. He's always, he's always had that. So that, that personal investment in people's lives. I mean, he was, he was the, he was the guy in between all those services. I mean, I marveled this now, right? Because when I'm growing up as a kid, it's like, I just don't recognize it for what it is until I'm doing ministry. But he was the guy who was out on the patio, having as many conversations, giving as many hugs as he could before the next service started. And maybe, maybe even into the next service a little bit and then being told, hey, you got to get out and preach

again. He's just, so man, he just shepherding in a very personal, intimate way, prayer, as you said, meeting people in dark hours of their life and moving towards people in their homes and in hospital rooms. And Rick, Rick was a pastor. And yeah, I marvel at the, the inner and the capacity to do that. Hey, friends, I want to tell you about a new sponsor for Theology to Raw. It's called Everyday Dose, which is coffee with mushrooms, collagen, and neutropics. It's kind of like coffee with benefits. So, like probably most of you, I love coffee, and I also love to be healthy and stay alert.

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a free A2 probiotic creamer and over $100 in free gifts. Plus, you can enter for a chance to win $100 cash or get your entire order refunded. Visit Everydaydose.com forward slash TITR or use code TITR at checkout. Okay, that's Everydaydose.com forward slash TITR or use TITR at checkout. So you've moved from full-time pastoral ministry to now you're a professor, you're an academic, but you're also involved in pastoral care. As you're caring for other pastors, what are some of the greatest, most common concerns, challenges, needs that come up among pastors these days?

Yeah. Oh, I think what I've noticed over the last year, in particular over the last year, I've been doing retreats, various places for kind of groups of pastors. And so London, Indiana, Seattle, Arizona, so a pretty broad spectrum. And what I've noticed to be really, I think, common threads and themes are probably things that aren't terribly surprising. loneliness, exhaustion, discouragement. But I think maybe what I would say is in those things, what I think I've begun to really identify is from many pastors,

there's just what I would call a lament long overdue. there have been there have been betrayals there have been hurtful kind of sustained criticisms of them in their ministry there have been serious losses whether that's actually the death of those that are dear to them in the life of the church or losses in other ways there's just kind of watching people just kind of goes to church and walk away and I find that many pastors in a very noble and honorable way maintain a really high degree of confidentiality about their experience of those things that I think actually as much as there's virtue in there I think there's a little bit of vice that shows up and not actually drawing your to the Lord

in the real pain and grief and even anger that can come from some of those experiences and sharing those things with the others that God has placed in their life to actually walk with them, whether that's their fellow elders, whether that's co-pastors, oftentimes even a spouse. And so I've sat in circles with pastors over the last year numerous times and, you know, created some space maybe in a retreat setting to consider these areas in their life and how they experience ministry prayerfully inviting them into that. and then maybe closing the day with some sharing. And what I've been struck by every time is so often the sharing begins with.

I've never told anyone this, or I've only told my wife, but I haven't really even told her how much this. And so often, Preston, it's a story from a decade ago, a story from 20 years ago of like, man, this mentor of mine, he was supposed to send me out. And I was being raised up to plant. And actually what happened was he began to be envious of my growing young adult ministry or he began to feel jealous that actually the people he was going to send us with, he actually decided, I don't know that I want to send those people anymore. Why do they want to support you? And in the end, we were kind of shuffled out the door with a kind of vague commission, but the things that were committed to maybe in the background all were kind of like relinquished. Or I, I, I I did ministry for years and years and years, and I took the risk of actually being honest and vulnerable with someone I did ministry with, and it was used against me, as a way for them to kind of maybe usurp my authority or to position themselves with an elder brother. So you name it, right, with stories of pain.

And then I think, lastly, I'll just say, and whatever comes up for you here, but I think the other thing I would say is what I've observed is so many pastors who are living what I will call unconfessed lives. And I think there's a complex story there as to why. And we can get into that a little bit if you like. But I think part of what has happened over the last decade or so, as there's been a real, what I would call divine reckoning of sin among pastors and leaders in the church. and as blogs and social media has done their work in identifying those folks and naming those folks

and exposing those folks, I think pastors have become more and more fearful of being honest about any sin in their life, even sin that is certainly not disqualifying. And so they're kind of languishing in hidden sins sometimes before the Lord. Like they're not even really meaningfully bringing their sin before the Lord, but certainly not in conversation with anybody else. And so maybe there's envy, maybe there's anger, maybe there's pride. And they're kind of trying to manage that on their own. And as you know, that doesn't tend to go well, especially over the course of a life, our own sin sin management. So I find that there's also a confession long overdue for many pastors.

Is that what led you? Joe, you just came up with this book, pastoral confessions, the healing path to faithful ministry. You talk about some pretty daring topics here, pastoral pride, pastoral wrath, lust, gluttony, envy, avarice, I can't even pronounce this one, pastoral, Ascadia. Acadia. What is that? You can say it either way. This is one of those, no one knows exactly how to say the word. Acidia or Acadia. This is the original root word in the Christian tradition for Sloth, actually. Oh. Yeah. But it, but it funds, I think it funds a little bit richer understanding of

the vice than Sloth tends to for us. That's why I try to return to kind of the original source word. When I think of pastors, I don't think a sloth. Usually I think they're overworked. underpaid, doing more than they should? Is that, I mean, but is there an element of sloth built into there? It's kind of hidden there. Yeah, I think you can be a busy body and be slothful. I think you can be highly productive and efficient in various ways and be slothful. So in the Christian tradition, what we would say is sloth is most fundamentally about being,

if we're going to use the word lazy, lazy in faith, hope and love. And think here of maybe the scene with Mary and Martha. You're busy with much, but you failed to do the one thing necessary. I think there are many pastors who are very diligent in leadership development and preparing for their sermons. And they are avoiding actually engaging the people in their church and caring for souls that are difficult because love in real life can be really difficult and inefficient. So it's almost like hiding behind the busyness of ministry.

Yeah, certainly. Being lazy or slothful towards more. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, think in really maybe practical ways, even for folks that might be listening who aren't pastors. I try to explore each of these vices in a way that also you can maybe discern them in your own life, whether you're in ministry as well in the book. And I think this is maybe the person who they're late on paying bills. And it's the month of April. And they've, they still have. They still have. haven't really engaged those taxes, but they're going to spend all Saturday cleaning the house because the truth is the house does need to get cleaned. Right?

So what's really going on there? There's an unwillingness to engage and be responsible with actually what is most maybe essential and necessary and critical and important. But someone else in their life might go, oh, man, they're so, you know, they're so organized. They're so clean. They're so responsible. in their home and go, wow, this is definitely somebody who doesn't struggle with sloth, but what may be going on is there's a pile of papers in the closet that lie under,

lie underneath the basket that they're not dealing with, right? And I think I can speak from experience that that can show up in the pastoral life. So that's part of what Acadia is getting out. There's a, there can be a slothful component, and that can show up in the kind of sluggard of proverbs, just an unwillingness to engage. But it can also show up in a kind of busyness in all kinds of things to avoid what is actually most central to our vocation. But on the other side of Acadia can kind of be, and this is why I like the word Acadia, Acadia really, what it really just means is a failure to care, ultimately. And how it can also kind of manifest is through a kind of despondence.

So maybe rather than showing up more slothfully, it can show up as it just kind of resignation. Like what's the point anymore? Why try? Is that pretty common among pastors? That kind of like apathy, borderline nihilism, just kind of like, I need to keep cranking out my, you know, sermons and services because my paycheck depends on it. But man, my heart is just not here anymore. Yeah, I think in particular, and I try to do this in the book, I try to name how these sins have shown up in my life first. I think one of the ways that I've seen it in my own life, but I've seen it with other pastors as well.

I think, boy, if you've been in ministry for any length of time, you've been through these rounds of trying to get the church to care about things you care about. And you go to conferences, and you can hear hero stories about that, right? We did this initiative, and everybody did it. But most pastors have the experience of, if they've done ministry for a length of time, Yeah, there may be a few kind of wins in that kind of category for them, but there have been a lot of, we set forward to do this initiative to care for the poor in our city, calling people's invest in some. Maybe this isn't even building campaign. This is just, we really believe our church ought to be about this. We're trying to create a new partnership with churches in India in some meaningful way. And it could be really good work that is right at the heart of what the pastor cares deeply about. And there's a real vulnerability. and sharing maybe that vision or that sense of what the Lord might be calling us to, their heart is really attached to that.

And yet they can experience the church just not really caring and not responding and not kind of showing up in ways that they would have expected or ways that really make that thing go. And I think when you experience that several times over the course of your life and ministry, what can happen is at some point you can kind of go, yeah, what's the point? point. Yeah. So, and I think that shows up with evangelism, right? I think it can show up in a kind of, you know, we've got our 80 people here. And I've done this for 20 years. And as soon as we start building and growing, I get that six person family leaving and all of a sudden we're down to 74 out of 80, you know, and then I get one maybe new family coming. And you know what I'm going to do?

I'm going to kind of batten down the hatches. I'm going to try to kind of just keep what I've got. and, and, and just kind of ride this thing out. And, yeah. So I think that's some of the ways it can show up. What does pastoral confession look like? Because this is kind of a main thing you're arguing is this should be part of the discipline of pastoral ministry as pastors should be confessing sin being open with their struggles.

But, but I guess, if I could say, but could that, I mean, I imagine, you know, every time a pastor looks at porn or something, he's like confessing before. before the church, before a sermon, and that could be, I don't know, like, is that, is that what you're arguing for or like, no, no. I say this in the book, I hopefully really clearly in a full-throated way, like, here I am, I'm publishing a book on pastoral confession, and I am confessing my own sins first, but I want to really clear it. What I'm not suggesting is, and now every pastor should follow me and publish their sins, right, in a book, or need to get up at every conference and confess their sins, but I felt a sense of conviction,

that if I'm going to call other pastors to do this, I do have to go first. And what does it mean to write a book on Passover confession and just talk the whole time about how I'm tempted by things? Right, right. Right? Like, okay, well, when are you going to really let it rip and tell us what you, your actual sins, present tense, not past tense, which is a common temptation for pastors, is to only confess in the past tense as a kind of hero's tale of having overcome these things, right?

Or confess socially, except. sins like hey oh certainly i'm strong you know their church is exploding and growth and yeah you know we're just crushing it and and i just want to confess it's starting i'm feeling prideful and like right that's that's different than you know i'm confessing that you know i wish i would have been a woman and i cross-dress sometimes or so you know like yeah well i think to your point it can land somewhat like responding to that classic interview question like tell us your weakness and you go i'd have to say it's that I care too much and I work too hard. That's my weakness, you know? And it's like, we all know what we're doing here. I've actually told you of strength and you're like, well done.

We want somebody who overworked. Okay. So yeah, I think you're right. There's all kinds of ways we dodge confession. I just wanting to signal out the gate as I answer your question. This is not a book calling pastors to all write their book publishing their confessions or to get up on every Sunday morning in confessor's sense. It is a call to pastors to embrace, I think, what is fundamentally a call the Christian life and pastors, they don't have an opt-out clause, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another that you might be healed. And I don't take it, the James 516 has like an addendum, you know, unless you're in full-time ministry, then don't do it. In fact, as I argue in the book, if we're going to invite people into this kind of gospel practice in

their life of mortification of sin, that there is actually healing to be found in presenting the truth of our sin before the Lord. If we're going to really meaningfully invite people into that, I think we have to be people who know that way ourselves and know what it is to live by grace in our own lives, not just commending a gospel to them that we don't know experientially. So I think this is actually essential for pastors to faithfully shepherd others in the way of Jesus. I do think there's challenges, no doubt, to what that looks like in a pastor's life. And I also try to name that the book, recognizing that, Yeah, we are in a different position in the life of the church holding an office.

And so what does it mean to take up that fundamental Christian calling, but in light of our office and in light of maybe our unique context in the church? And there I just would pause and say, well, that's a great place to begin, is to take seriously that question. Like, what does that look like? And to bring that into prayer with the Lord. Like, Lord, okay, I think this is actually something I'm called to along with all the believers here in our church. So what does it mean for me to embrace this call to confess my sins to one another,

to do a one another in scripture faithfully for the sake of healing? What does it mean that I actually need the prayers of others, just like others need the prayers of myself and others, for the sake of our healing? And where might I begin? And what I would just commend to pastors is to say, begin there and begin there with a conversation with fellow elders, fellow pastors in the life of your church. And I think the right place to start. And just to use one example, I know this isn't everybody's ecclesial context, but this was mine for so many years. And I know it is many who are probably listening. What would I like to begin the conversation in the elder room with, hey, I think this is something we're probably called to do. And it probably needs to begin

here together with one another as those who are genuine peers and ministry. and who are called to actually hold one another accountable and actually called to discern whether we're qualified or disqualified for our office. And it's pretty hard to do that if we actually don't know about each other's lives and don't actually know about each other's sins. Or we're just kind of waiting to find out

if someone gets caught doing something terrible. Like that seems like a bad way to approach this. And so, hey, can we just begin with, what would that look like for us? And can we begin with honestly just acknowledging we're all kind of scared to do it? Like, if we haven't done that before, hey, I just want to begin with, I think this is something we're called to do, but if I'm honest, I'm scared to be vulnerable in those ways.

And I'm scared to be vulnerable for the same reason every Christian is scared to be vulnerable and in the kind of how the fall has hit us in Adam. I think we see in Genesis 3 the same pattern of behavior in guilt and in shame and fear. We're scared of condemnation. We're scared of abandonment and rejection by God, in fact, still in many ways. which is why I think we don't always give a full-throated confession to the Lord even in prayer. It can be a kind of very generic, oh, God, I sinned again. Thanks.

Sorry, bye. Move on. But I think also why we're scared to confess with others. We're scared of the same thing in interpersonal relationship. So what I would commend to pastors is begin there. I think this is something we're called to do. What would it all like for us to take scripture seriously? If I'm honest, I feel a bit scared to do that.

And I don't think there's anything in my life that is maybe disqualifying, but I'm worried that you all might hear. any sin as this qualifying. As I say in the book, if sinlessness was the qualification for pastoral office, well, none would be found qualified. And so I think what I find is oftentimes pastors have opted for the next. And they know, every pastor knows that. Of course, I have sin. And everyone goes, well, of course the pastor sins. But I think what we've opted for is something like, yeah, but let's just pretend like he doesn't. And yeah, I'll just keep pretending like I don't. And I think that, that way of life, that's what produces 20 years later a moral failure

that so's profound devastation and destruction in church, right? Like, the story of adultery usually doesn't begin with that in a person's life. There's a long story of hidden sins that probably begin in ways that we're not disqualifying at all, But we're not brought meaningfully into the light of God's presence, and we're not brought meaningfully into the fellowship community of the saints, such that others can walk with us in that in a meaningful way. So what I'm trying to commend here is hopefully a way of life and vitality for pastors who can actually persevere in ministry faithfully over the long haul.

I think we've got to confess. Once you begin with that kind of behind closed door, select group of leaders, like that alone can be really scary and challenging. Is there a place for confessing from the pulpit? What does that look like? Yeah, I think so, Preston. And maybe let me just briefly say here, too, for some pastors, I recognize their elder room might currently be a place that they know to not be safe to share their life really in any way. And so for them, I'd say, then start the conversation with a fellow pastor you know who's not in your context and begin the same conversation there. Hey, this is where I'm at. I think this is something we're called to do. If I'm honest, I'm scared to do it in my own church

context. Can you help discern that with me? And can I begin confessing my sins to you, perhaps? Can we do that together? Can you help me discern how to maybe bring this into my elder room? Because I don't even know if I can do that. So I just, I want to pause there and just again acknowledge. There's first steps that I'd want to commend it. Begin where you are. Begin where you are. But begin with an earnest intention. to be faithful to God's call in this regard. Now, I think having said that, what I would say is a couple things. Yeah, don't begin in the pulpit, right? Like, don't roll out the first confession in the pulpit.

And I think, one, for the reasons I've already mentioned, I think it's actually not really honoring and properly recognizing of where that should start and who should be kind of co-discernible of qualification for office. And I take it we don't get to kind of self-select in that regard. I think we are all self-deceived enough. The heart is deceitful and wicked above all else. Who can know it? I take it we don't always know our hearts well.

We don't always know the truth of our sin. And so we need to bring into the elder room or fellow pastors first, actually because there does need to be some discernment about what is the degree of my sin? I don't get to decide it's not that serious or it is that serious. And so I don't think rolling into the pulpit is the first place. to go for for those reasons and i do find sometimes when that has happened it is a way of avoiding what i've just said right because sometimes i can position even a confession of my sin almost through the story of victimhood and and garner sympathy in a way that is manipulative and actually gets the

congregation on my side so that by the time i do bring it into the elder room the congregation is like oh we just feel bad for him and we want to do whatever it takes to care for our pastor and now the elders are going, oh boy, but like, you shouldn't be a pastor anymore, you know? And I, I mean, I've seen that happen, right? And so I, that's the first thing I'd want to say. Beyond that, what I would say, maybe just giving a more positive case for, let's say you've already, you know, you're honest about your life and even your sin with those who you first and foremost should be fellow elders, fellow pastors, your spouse, close friends who would hold you accountable. Now what does it look like to begin showing up in the pulpit in kind of the truth of your life.

I do think there needs to be discernment here about how detailed we get about our sin, but I do think there is value in pastors showing up in the pulpit. Being honest about what I would just say ought to be a meaningful part of every sermon preparation plan every week they prepare to enter into the pulpit. it. In my opinion, every time I prepare for a sermon, part of that should include confession of sin in some way. If the word of the Lord is dividing and searching and knowing my heart, I take it that every time I'm confronted by the word, my heart should be exposed. And there ought to be things that the Lord is actually showing me about my own life and places of failure

and sin. And I take it that part of preparing to preach that Sunday is, oh, Lord, me too. Here's where there's pride in my life. Here's where I know there's, there's anger. Here's where I know there can be self-righteousness, whatever it may be. And I think that can help fund, I think, occasions in which this might actually be really helpful and appropriate to share in the sermon as a way of inviting others to do the same. I think if the congregation is only ever hearing, the pastor talk about how they have sin, all right? Or if the pastor's only story about sin in his life is, you know, my life is 20 years ago I used to struggle with this, I think what can begin to be created is a sense that actually

the pastor's kind of arrived, I guess. And there's a whole host of problems there. But one of the problems there is I think what that can begin to communicate to people, is some i guess something's wrong with me i i you know i've been trying to do this christian life thing and take it seriously for years and um i i really don't want some of these sins in my life but i here i am 25 years later i'm still struggling with these things but apparently jaman doesn't i i don't know i don't know what to make of that am i doing something wrong have i like um and so i think this is an confession is an opportunity

In the same way, we might use an image or a story in a sermon. Confession, I think, is an opportunity to say, here's what the gospel looks like in our real life. Here's how the Lord has met me in my own anger. And boy, that's something that I still wrestle with today in my life. And that can show up in my home. And those moments in sermons for me, when I have done that over the years, I would say

every time I have had someone approach me afterwards and say thank you for saying that sometimes I wonder like what I just described like is this just

I guess I'm just like I'm just the one like pastor's kind of figured it out and you you really gave me hope and encouragement that like this is kind of

this is the journey this is the pilgrim pilgrimage of faith it's going to include this and so anyway I think offering a vision for them of what it means to live by grace through faith alone, our need for God's

forgiveness to be met in places of actual sin in our life. I think we have to articulate that about our own lives if we're going to invite people into that in their life. Okay, I'm turning 50 years old next year. I can't believe it. And I'm already feeling the effects of aging. I mean, our bodies simply make less energy as we get older. But now you can help recharge the batteries of your cells by taking modipure's longevity, gummies which transform cellular damage into energy by delivering six times more uralithian A than a glass of pomegranate juice. Mitropure is the only Eurolithian A supplement on the market clinically proven to target the

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theology gummies to get started. That's timeline.com forward slash theology gummies. Your sales will thank you. I think just having that posture of vulnerability too. like which is I guess adjacent to confession obviously you have to be vulnerable to be willing to confess but that just I don't know man like you know and you know when people are you totally know when people are being genuinely vulnerable or like you said before they're just work in the room they're being they're using kind of pseudo vulnerability to gain more you know more more followers more allegiance sure and yeah at the same time like it is a fine balance between not presenting yourself as untouchable, like you're doing everything right, obviously. But then if you're just living in, you know, you're so vulnerable and confessing so often that people are like, why, yeah, are you a leader that I should be submitting to? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. It's that kind of in between space. I do think here of the of the

of the apostle. I think this is a matter of wisdom and discernment, right? I don't think there's a kind of like, what are the five rules of proper confession and a pulpit? But I think of Paul here is a model for us. And, you know, is he just being hyperbolic or just trying to make other people feel okay when he says, here I am, chief of sinners? Right. It's interesting the ways we sometimes read Paul's list of weaknesses and struggles in Corinthians. You know, in there, he says he struggles every day with anxiety for the churches.

And I find we so often, like, are quick to do a kind of, like, interesting, well, this is clearly like a healthy version of anxiety because, of course, as we all know, Paul can't have sin. Wait, whoa, I'm sorry. What? Like, we have this interesting way of perfecting biblical characters other than Christ in ways that I think tend to be. This is really common with Old Testament figures. as you know, right?

Like there's a, we get really dodgy about the actual sins. And I think we can do that. And I just, I wonder, as Paul is talking about his anxiety for the churches, the same guy who said being, you know,

be anxious for nothing. Could it be that he's acknowledging he struggles with trusting the Lord? Like, is that possible? It certainly seems possible, right? I don't think Paul was without sin. So I'll all to say, I think some of this is maybe part and parcel of how we experience

even some of the ways Paul talks about ministry in his life. And I think there's a mirroring there of how he talks about his weaknesses. Similarly, I think pastors really struggle to be honest just about weaknesses, right? Working your strengths. Work in your sweet spot. but, you know, and we tend to virtueize that. And, you know, Vision Sundays and Leadership Sundays don't tend to be sharing about the weaknesses of the church and sharing about the weaknesses of our leadership.

I guess I would just say, well, why not? It's just, it's very interesting to me that Paul's response to the Corinthians critique of his rhetorical skill is, basically a yeah like it's not a you know what thank you for the critical feedback i'll work on that i know i need a better be a better speaker um and don't worry i'm going to make that a strength not a weakness rather it's yeah when i'm weak i'm strong may christ be glorified would that you know that christ is the one doing this not me and and so let me let me give you there in second Corinthians 11, a whole laundry list of other weaknesses actually. Oh, you think my speaking ability

is not as impressive as the other traveling super apostles. Oh, you think the fact that I don't take money is to my shame because, of course, the teachers worth their salt take money. You guys don't know the half of it. Let me give you a whole list of other really embarrassing things about myself. Let me tell you a story about being lowered out of a basket late at night. You know, you think it's embarrassing. I can't march into town with a parade. Oh, I have to like hide. I have to sneak out of town late at night, right? I mean, you know, Preston, right? These are not, Paul isn't putting forward like the best profile of an apostle, right, who's sinless, who never struggles with anxiety, who's always up for anything. And, you know, never struggles, never feels pain. Like,

this isn't. And so I guess I would just commend to pastors, like, what would it like to kind of maybe follow Paul's example here as he follows Christ? That's good. That's good. good. I want to shift gears just a little bit because you've been a pastor, you're a forward thinking person, and you work with tons of pastors, given the massive cultural shifts from internet to pandemics to political division, do you envision pastoral ministry taking on a different shape today in 2025 and moving on than we were doing 30 years ago? how much a pastoral ministry should resist cultural change and how much of it should adopt and embrace and shift their pastoral approach and light of cultural change. I mean, the one big one for me is so much of influence is now, for good or for ill, is online.

It's Zoom chats, it's podcast, it's YouTube. It's all these things that are not just face-to-face embodied sort of ministry, whereas, you know, 30 years ago, a pastoral influence was just, or mainly, you know, Sunday sermon, maybe a Bible study, maybe whatever, but it was there. But people now are getting so much influence. Again, for good or for ill, outside of, you know, listening to the pastor's pulpit ministry. Yeah. So, yeah, what sort of ecclesiological changes should we adopt and how many should we keep? Yeah. Wow, what a question.

That's great. Sorry to drop that. I know you didn't write a book on this, but. No, it's great. I'm happy to just kind of prayerfully think out loud with you a little bit about it. I think the first thing that comes up for me is just to say, well, I definitely don't want to begin the conversation with a kind of like a Luddite rejection of all things while I'm on a podcast talking to you. right like this feels like the height of hypocrisy like I really shouldn't be doing these podcasts except for me so you know I think I just would want to begin even there like half jokingly

but maybe half you know also serious to say I want to recognize the kind of variegated nature of pastoral calling in this sense I think I think we do get a fixed sense of what is fundamental to the pastoral vocation, I think fairly clear in the New Testament, and proclaiming the gospel, you know, kind of teaching vocation of the pastorate, shepherding God's people, as to say, caring for souls in protection and provision and guidance, all that a shepherd would do in a person's life. And I think prayer. being committed to a life of prayer for the sake of the church, for people we're caring for. These things, I think, are fundamentally at the heart of the pastoral vocation and, you know,

the kind of ordered worship administration of sacraments, depending on our tradition here. But I think pastors are responsible for shepherding and teaching in and through the worship of God's people, gathering God's people. So these things, I think, are fixed. And yet, I think individual pastors are called, meaning Jamin is called to the pastorate. Preston is called to, yeah, whoever it is, this individual is called. And so, for example, in my case, you know, I have a couple of master's degrees, but I want on to do that Ph.D. And I don't think that's, like, necessary.

And I think doing the seminary degree, I highly commend that. I'm an associate professor at Talbot Seminary at Biola. Please come, you know. But I don't think beyond that master's or that M-Div, which I think can be really important and helpful for pastors and being faithful to those parts of their vocation we just talked about, I don't think it was necessary for me to get a PhD. Okay, so then what does it mean to be a pastor who does have a PhD? Well, maybe there's now a certain particular responsibility or kind of uniqueness to my calling.

It does entail things like writing books or creating resources for other pastors or, you know, developing theological content that can help train and equip even other pastors and ministry leaders. Well, I don't think that's essential to every pastor's role. So I think what I'm getting at here to then move more directly to answering your question is I think, I don't want to ever, I think, leave behind what is fundamental. And if the pull towards starting a podcast, writing books, speaking at conferences, leaning into kind of new technologies and the ways in which those maybe kind of globalize our, as you said, influence or impact or ministry, if that's pulling me away from what is,

I think, fundamental and central to the vocation that isn't particularized to me, that's not shaped by my unique story, my unique gifting, my unique. my unique training and equipping, then something has gone awry. Like, either I'm going to continue to be a local pastor who shepherds are particular people in a particular place and actually knows those lives and who preaches to a particular people

in a particular place. Like, this is, I think, one of the distinctives of preaching. It is to a people, a people whom we live amongst and who we do life with and who we know, right? And I think if those things are pulling me out of that, well, then I think something has to be discerned at that point. am I called to still be a local church pastor and administer and shepherd the particular people in a particular place? Well, that's going to necessitate personal relationship,

interaction, face-to-face, embodied ministry, knowing lives that I'm preaching to, praying for people by name, all the things we've talked about. And it may be the case that God's now 20, 30 years in or whatever it may be. No, he's calling me into something new and something different. But now I have to discern how to maybe I hold these things in relationship with one another. I think maybe the last thing I'll say is how a local church thinks about its ministry beyond its walls in and through some of these mediums of communication. I think that just needs to be really carefully discern. I think I'm not at all allergic to the sermon is posted in a podcast audio or the pastors have a podcast conversation about various issues in life

that church. These things are pretty common now. But I would want to encourage them to think about those primarily first and foremost as ways of caring for yet still their church. I think if the focus becomes the camera in the back of the room for those who aren't in the room and I'm kind of teaching towards that, something's been disordered. If the podcast becomes, actually a conversation that's not relevant at all to the church. I find this, I have found this at times where, you know, there's things happening in the culture writ large or the evangelical church and evangelical church culture writ large that like the pastor podcast at a local church feels like they need to talk about an address. And I think my question would be something like,

is this something your people are actually wrestling with? Like these pastoral conversations you're getting in and is it impacting your context? Great. But if you're kind of just creating an episode to address issues that are happening other places, but no one in your church is actually wrestling with these things or talking about these things, audit just be a podcast you guys do on the side for the church. Again, maybe that's something God's calling you into that's different. He's uniquely gifted you or equipped you to do that. But what does it mean to continue to remain kind of focused on shepherding your people?

Yeah. With these resources. Yeah. I want to advocate for not every. I never give absolutes, you know, every ministry is different. But I think most pastors and leaders, it would be beneficial to have a conversational down-to-earth podcast directed towards the church so that people can see a pastor outside of the performance of a sermon.

And I don't mean that negatively. I'm just saying when you prepare for a sermon, it is, there isn't. So I'm not using the term performance negatively. It's just neutral. Like that, that is a pre, it's scripted, it's filtered, it's edited, it's, you know, and it could be amazingly beneficial.

I'm not saying don't do that. I'm saying in addition to that, to give people a window into, you know, who you are, how you talk just normally, not in a preachy way, you know, how are you thinking through so many issues that are challenging Christians and the church? You know, one of the biggest frustrations I hear from pastors is, you know, they just did a two-year series through Romans, you know, while, you know, if they went on their social media sites of all their congregants, they're fighting about politics, they're yelling and screaming over, you know, LGBTQ stuff.

They're, you know, yelling about immigration and, you know, how they respond to Charlie Kirk's assassination. All these things, it's like, we can't address all that on a Sunday morning. And even if we did, what's the average church attendance, you know, twice a month or whatever? So even if you had this whole series laid out and, man, you're learning so much from Romans. Like, the people are not, they're getting a glimpse of what you have learned by going through Romans. And I'm a big fan of Romans, a big fan of Oxpository preaching. So I'm not saying, don't do that.

man, I just feel like in this day and age, the fact is people that we are shepherding are being, dare I say, much more heavily influenced by things outside of the Sunday morning sermon. And so could leaders not go to where people are naturally, you know, being, being influenced? And, um, yeah, I don't know. I'm very, what do you think? What do you think? I'm just, I'm not, I'm not going to write a book on this or anything and I know I'm biased. I'm a podcast or whatever, but I just feel like, man, there's, and I've seen pastors do this. Yeah. And it's, it's been, I think it's been great that they can address things and help shepherd people. Yeah. Throughout the week, really, in as much as, you know, you know, a decent percentage of people are on podcasts, you know, but

or YouTube or just, I'm not, you know, yeah. Yeah, I think I, and again, you're, you're, you're catching me a bit on the fly with you thinking out loud, which I'm happy to do. I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm sensitive to what you're commending. I think I'm inclined to agree with you. Again, I think I would want to just help maybe draw that distinction between, well, maybe to give a correlative example. You know, years ago, I had someone I served with in ministry, youth ministry, who was, you know, kind of engaging the latest research out there on what's going on with teens, you know, what teens are doing, what teens are struggling with. And, you know, here's the percentages, here's the data, here's what the surveys are saying,

and decided I really need to do a series on, like, TikTok and the, you know, the dangers of TikTok or whatever, you know, you know. And so, you know, kind of did that, smaller youth group. And after a few weeks, like, he kind of just had this sense that, like, it wasn't really landing. And come to find out, like, really no one in the youth group was using TikTok. And there's a bunch of, like, homeschool kids in the youth group. There's a bunch of who, like, don't even have cell phones yet. And, okay, and so I guess, you know, it's a bit of a maybe a stark example.

but that sometimes can help kind of hone in on and maybe clarify a point, which is to say, yeah, I'm really open to what you're suggesting. I like the way you framed it, which is it can be a conversation with your people about things your people are actually wrestling with and thinking through and dynamics going on. And it may still be, please don't hear me wrong, it may still be something that happened in the news or like, I'm not suggesting it has to be like only stories of things happen. inside of our community. I just mean to say issues and questions and things your people are struggling with. And sometimes I find, from my own experience, right, evangelical, us evangelical

pastors, we can be online quite a bit and we can be in a bit of our own echo chamber of like the issues of the day and the things that need to be addressed and what surveys are saying and what the research is showing and what's really going on and why people are coming and why people are going and what's dividing our churches. And I just want to say, that stuff can be helpful as a kind of secondary source of discerning what you're already discerning interpersonally and prayerfully in your community. But don't ever let the research and the surveys and the kind of conversation out there in the social media space dictate what you do or don't talk to your people about. Because it could be that you're trying to talk to them about TikTok

and none of them are using TikTok. And it may be a relevant issue for most evangelical churches. right so again it may be the research is all true but you know i i would just want to say hey if you're going to have that that episode on about ticot then maybe make that a separate podcast you and your buddy are hosting that's speaking into the evangelical kind of culture but if it's going to be for your church and research for your church allow it to be kind of funded by those conversations and that kind of lived experience as a pastor of like hey boy these are issues we know where people are wrestling with and to your point we know we're not always able to to address even on a Sunday morning, not because we're being dodgy or avoiding it, but just it's not

fitting for us to kind of roll into the pulpit every Sunday and go, well, we heard this week from three of you that you're wondering about these things happening, you know, like this is not. So it becomes a helpful place to kind of help them, model for them even maybe how to think Christianly about some of these things in their life in a kind of slower-paced conversational way that I think could be really helpful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I would say for sure, get a sense of what are your people that God has entrusted you to pastor? What are they actually wrestling with? I don't know. I think that could be as simple as like posting a really, like a survey of like, what are you guys wrestling with, you know, and maybe even give them some options, you know,

you know, politics, immigration, I don't know, those are always in my mind, you know, but like sexuality. Like what do you? And then and then just take the top kind of, you know, responses or whatever, and then think through that and address it. And I think even bringing in, you know, again, and what I wouldn't want to happen is that the podcast reinforces the kind of pastor's centricity of the church, you know. So have conversations with other leaders, other people in the congregants, people doing, every church has people doing incredible work for the kingdom

outside the walls of the church that most people don't even know about. You know, I talked to some of the, you know, Christian businessmen or women. that are, their business is, they're doing more pastoring in their business, place of business, their workplace than most pastors do throughout the week in the church, you know? And nobody knows about it, you know? Oh, how come so-and-so has only been at church, you know, once in the last six weeks? Well, yeah, because he's out, he's traveling, he's doing this, and he's having gospel conversations, like just exposing or introducing the whole church to various people in the congregation that are really

further in the kingdom to give them examples of like, oh my gosh, they're doing that. And I can, you know, like, that's good for the kingdom. I don't need to just be a pastor. I can, I can expand the kingdom by being a stay-at-home mom, decipher my kids or whatever. Like, yeah, I think those kind of stories would be from the local church, you know, would be amazing. But sorry, I, I, yeah. I think, no, I think it's great. I totally agree. And I maybe the last thing I'd share here, as you were saying that, what was coming up for me was, I think sometimes the pastors, maybe who would feel, I was trying to kind of imagine like a pastor who might feel a little bit anxious about this. And not on, not on, not for principled reasons. I mean, that they may be out there and

listening and that's okay. But maybe just more like, I don't, I don't know that I am like up for being able to give answers on all the hot button issues the day on a podcast regularly. I mean, I am sensitive. I am sensitive to kind of this expectation we, I think, more and more seem to have pastors that they have a matured and well-developed theological view on immigration policy, ready at hand, and also on abortion rights, and also on, you know, even just a broad political theology. I mean, political theology, as a systematic theology myself, I would say political theology in my estimation is one of the hardest things to do well. And it is striking to me how often we think it should just be done easily and quickly.

So I just to name a few issues, but like there's a whole host of things, right? Like euthanasia and all these hot button cultural issues that they may have like an initial sense of conviction, but they haven't had time to research and stuff. And I guess what I'm driving at is this. Not only what I affirm you said like don't feel like you have to always be the answer person bring on others who maybe have thought deeply and well who are voices that can be trusted for your church and that's kind of what i was that's kind of what i was thinking i didn't state it clearly like yeah of course stay in your lane don't you're not and it would actually be counterproductive for various reasons that you give the

impression that you are an expert and everything but you can yeah go find somebody hopefully within your church that does have some expertise in these various areas but but maybe what i would just say is like to add to that like I also think that in light of some of those pressures and a lot of some of I think the pace at which we expect an answer and like yeah my goodness just the recent events with what transpired with the assassination of Charlie Kirk and one of the things that it stood out to me is the expectation like within seconds you're giving a full-throated very clear thoughtful answer to something that is profoundly traumatic, sorrowful, grievous, evil. I mean, and so, but the pace of our social media is such that we just, we expect rapid

fire answer response. And if someone is a leader or a pastor, we expect that to be like really good, too, and really coherent and robust and properly nuanced in the ways we think it should or shouldn't be nuanced and wow, I think the pressure pastors can feel on that. I just want to be sensitive to. And so maybe what I'm also trying to drive at here is I think one of the things that could be really helpful about what you're commending is what would it look like also to be okay having conversations around these things that aren't ultimately always about giving the definitive answer? Yes, yes. That you could have a conversation that actually is just more geared

towards modeling, patient discernment, asking wise questions, what does it like to be prayerful in this? How do we actually work at a pace that is prayerful and walk and step with the spirit discerning some of these things? How do we just work at a pace that's human? I mean, our technology is not moving us at a human pace and processing information, right? Let alone being prayerful with it and bringing it before the Lord and being discerning and wise and how we might respond. And so I think, too, on top of everything you've shared, even if you don't have other experts in your church or don't know he'd bring on, I think it's also okay to have conversations about some things that aren't directed towards and we're going to give you the definitive answer.

Right. But actually, we're just trying to maybe model a little bit of how to Christianly talk, Christianly discern, Christianly ponder and ask questions about these things. And I'm not ultimately going to give you the, and therefore here's how you should think about it, or therefore here's the answer to it. And that might alleviate a little bit of the burden and the pressure for pastors of like what this might look like. But it also might be on top of that a really helpful thing to model for our church that maybe they need even more than at times definitive answers about these things. What they're needing is to actually be shepherded. How do I Christianly just respond to this bombardment of information? And an expectation in maybe my echo chamber

online of like I've got to have my take too because I think other Christians feel that pressure. They see friends posting on Facebook. Oh boy, if I don't post, what do they think about me not posting? Is me not posting now mean I don't care about Charlie Kirk's death or whatever whatever the issue may be. And so maybe there's an invitation just a model for folks how to prayerfully and humanly engage some of these things. Yeah, absolutely, man. Anyway, yeah, sorry to open up that big can of worms here at the end. Before I let you go. go, before I let you go, can you give a shout out to Talbot Seminary where you teach? I'm a big fan of Talba. I've been there to, you know, give lectures and speaking chapel and hang out with students.

And I just, I love, I love the posture. Every school has got its problems. Okay. So I know there's some disgruntled Talbot grab, Talbot grad said, I had a horrible experience. So this professor's to, anyway, in my experience, I haven't been to many different seminaries. You guys are doing some really, really, really good work. you blend academic rigor with pastoral sensitivity. And in my experience, the professors, you guys are really down to earth and humble. So anyway, not to steal your thunder, but why should people consider Talbot and what kind of programs do you guys offer? Thanks for seeing.

Thank you. Just so people know, Jamon did not tell me. He did not know this is coming. This is coming naturally from my heart. Yeah. Well, I appreciate it. And, yeah, I consider you a friend of Talbot. I just know over the years, there's so many folks you are meaningfully connected to who are,

my co-labour is there at the seminary. And, yeah, I, you know, I went to Talbot as a student. And so I've seen both sides of it, both as a student and as faculty. I'm actually newly associate professor. And what I would say is it genuinely is an honor to kind of step into, I think, what is a rich history and tradition of faithful equipping of pastors and ministry leaders for service in the church and practically and in ways that take seriously their own formation and take seriously a need to care for their souls. We have a rigorous commitment at Talbot

to the kind of character of those who come and their own personal formation, as you know, that's kind of baked into, it's one of the unique elements, kind of our spiritual formation core. And I think it's critical that we're not just training pastors and ministry leaders and folks who might come, how to exeat a passage, how to preach. And these things are important, to be sure. I don't want to diminish that. But we care about who they are, the kind of people they are.

And we want their experience at the seminary to not only be rigorous and proper. academically challenging and illuminating as they discover maybe a new scholarship in various areas and they wrestle with ideas doctrinally. But we also want them to become people of prayer and that they graduate as those who know the Lord deeply and who proclaim the gospel from a place of knowing God's work in their own life. So I love being a part of that work. I love the teaching. I love the mentoring. I love that we are a place that seeks to care for our students and meet them throughout their journey. And so, yeah, love for you to come join us and hang out with us. Yeah, I teach primarily our courses on pastoral care and counseling right now, but in the years

to come may teach some in systematic theology, some of systematic delusion, may teach some of those spiritual formation core classes. But I teach all of our pastoral care and counseling kind a core. And I love doing that. It's fun. It's fun bringing in real stories of ministry. You know, I haven't been a pastor for 20 years. I'm able to show up in the classroom with like, I know the kinds of things that can roll into your office. And I know the kinds of things that can approach you right after a sermon on Sunday and, and helping folks wrestle through and discern. How do we shepherd souls well, you know? That's so important if you are training for pastoral ministry to not just go to a place where people have amazing,

like academically qualified professors, although I would say it needs to be at least that, but to have academically minded pastors who have pastoral experience and a heart for the church is huge. So you guys definitely do that really well. So Jamin, thank you so much for me and a guest on Theals Nara.

Again, the book is pastoral confessions, The Healing Path to Faithful Ministry. Here's the, let me hold that up here. Is that right there? Yeah, there we go. You got a couple of cameras here going. So, yeah. Figure out where I'm looking at.

So thanks again, Jamie, for being a guest. Oh, of course.