Theology in the Raw - Spiritual Warfare, Divine Beings, and the Victory of Christ: Dr. Joel Muddamalle

Episode Date: March 2, 2026

For our Extra Inning conversation on the Nephilim, join my Patreon Community! Register for Exiles in Babylon, April 28-May 2, 2026! Dr. Joel Muddamalle (PhD) is the director of theology and research at Proverbs 31 Ministries with Lysa TerKeurst and the theologian in residence for Haven Place Ministries. Joel serves on the preaching team at Transformation Church with Pastor Derwin Gray and is the author of several books including the recently released The Unseen Battle: Spiritual Warfare, The Three Rebellions, and Christ’s Victory Over Dark Powers. Listen to the "extra innings" portion of this episode, where Joel and I talk about the Nephilim, by joining our TITR community at Patreon.com/theologyintheraw. Yes, spiritual beings really did have sex with women and produce giants. It’s all right there in the Bible.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

And Preston, I think it's very important for the day that we're in right now. 2026, like, there is something that is happening in our world that I have no other answer for than the presence of dark powers, working in and amongst not just non-believers, but believers as well, like the household of God. Hey, friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology and Around my guest today is my good friend, Dr. Joel Mutamali, who has a PhD in theology. He's the director of theology and research at Proverbs 31 Ministries with Lisa Turchurst and the theologian in residence for Haven Place Ministries. Joel serves on the preaching team at Transformation Church with my other good friend, Dr. Derwin Gray. And Joel is the author of several books, including the recently released book, The Unseen Battle for my YouTube viewers. Here it is. Cool cover.

This is a fantastic book, by the way. I read an earlier copy and endorsed it. It is really, really good. The subtitle is Spiritual Warfare, The Three Rebellions, and Christ's victory over dark powers. Super responsible scholarship, very engaging, very easy to read, but very thorough, too. And that's what this conversation is all about. We peel back the curtain on the unseen realm, lingering, not just behind the scenes in the scriptures, but actually plays a significant role in the very storyline of the Bible.

Stay tuned for our extra innings portion of this episode where Joel and I talk about the Nephilim. Yes, spiritual beings really did have sex with women and produce giants. It's all right there in the Bible. And you can get access to that portion of our conversation by going to patreon.com. forward slash Theology and Rao. Okay, please welcome to the show. Back again for the second time.

The one and only Dr. Joel Mooda Mali. Joel, man, good to see you again. Welcome back to Theology and Rao. I think this is your second time on the show. That's right. That's right. I told my wife earlier today, Preston. I do a lot of podcasts now.

I don't necessarily get nervous per se unless it's with you in Theology and Raw. And so for some reason, my nerves always like, I've got a stack of notes up in front of me. just in case like I just, but I think all that just because Preston, I just love your podcast. I'm I actually listen. I'm a listener of a listener. A listener and guest. Yeah, well, I appreciate. Yeah, I have that effect on people. People are really intimidated to talk to me. Not really. I'm, okay. So I've got so many questions to start us out. Let me begin here because you've kind of taken,

it seems like, correct me if I wrong, taken the mantle from the late Dr. Michael Hire. Heiser in helping people understand the cosmic, or I don't know what term you want to use, cosmic worldview, the Bible, the spiritual realm, you know, the unseen realm, as this famous book is titled. Yeah. What got you interested in reading the Bible this way and maybe the other side of the coin, what got you interested in Heiser's work in this area? You know, was it Heiser's work that sparked your interest?

or did you were you interested before you know across his stuff yeah so there probably a couple storylines that are connected one I had a English teacher when I was gosh must have been a freshman in high school that absolutely changed the way that I read in general so it was professor Scheidecker and he just he only taught honors classes and I was not in an honors class and it was a brand new school and so he was the head of the English department he got stuck teaching the regular you know class that's not honors. And he just kind of had this philosophy that there's like, there's no difference between the honors students and the right. And so he just like had us read all the stuff to kill a mockingbird. He had us read the Iliad and the Odyssey. And I remember reading.

And when he taught me to read with like, what is the author's intended like communication? What does he want us to get out? What is the kind? Like all this stuff. The books came alive to me. And then I'm like a Christian going to youth group reading, you know, like biblical stories. And then I'm like, wait a minute. I can apply the same kind of rigor and questioning and note taking in the margins in my Bible that I can do while I'm reading, you know, about Atticus Finch or as I'm reading about, you know, Homer and the Iliad. And so there's one part of it. And then I came into a, I would call it kind of a tradition that was a little bit more. focus on a demythologized reading of the of the Bible. I don't think it was intentional like this, like, hey, we're trying to intentionally strip out all the cosmic elements of the scriptures, but I think it was a byproduct of maybe post-enlightenment, maybe a disconnection from the ancient, near eastern kind of worldview and context. And so, like, my Bible college days was very much, like, I kind of call this group functional cessationists, you know? It's like,

hey, the Spirit of God can do whatever he wants to do, but he doesn't really do A, B, C, and D anymore, you know? And so I came up in that tradition. And then I came to work for a Bible software company called Logos Bible software. Yeah. And so they brought me on to help them launch FaithLife Study Bible and FaithLive.com, which was their like community program management deal. And they had this in-house scholar in residence. His name was Michael Heiser. And Mike had the coolest office because There was this flat iron building in downtown Bellingham. And there was like this employee floor that had like video games and a library and like a huge cafeteria with food and all this other stuff. And Mike's office was right there. So you'd walk by his office every time.

And I remember I had to interact with him because I was helping to kind of launch Faith Life Study by which you contributed a significant amount to. And, you know, I just finished my MDiv. And so I'm like newly minted. kind of think I know everything, you know, like kind of punk-errigan kid walking around with his chest out. And I walked into Mike's office one day and we're talking. I think I read his article on Psalm 82. And I was like pretty upset, honestly, like pretty frustrated. And I walked in and I got to find the email someday. It's got to be somewhere in the archives. And I remember like, I emailed a couple of people in the company. I'm like, hey, basically this is heresy. Like, I think this might be heresy.

Like, I was very upset. And I walked into Mike's, uh, Mike's, um, office. I said, hey, Dr. Heiser, I'd love to have a conversation with you on kind of your view on Psalm 82. And listen, Preston, when you walk into Mike's office, I know the boldness of that. I mean, arrogant. Like, that's why my first book was on humility, just so you know, Preston, because I have lived and, like, fallen by the pride of the human heart. Like, I understand it really well. And so just so for everybody to have a context, like Michael Heiser was a legitimate, Semitic Scholar, like this dude, you know, told jokes in Hebrew and Acadian, like just a whole different, whole different level. And so you walk in and behind his desk is a sign that says parking reserved

for Hebrew Semitic scholars. Right? So that's like you walk in and that's what's waiting for you. And Walked and I kind of have like an aggressive, I feel like I probably was an aggressive stance. and he just said, hey, that's really interesting. Joel, would you sit down? Can we have a conversation about this? Absolutely. And he goes, well, why do you think that Sawmeida 2 is about human rulers? And I, like, kind of fumble my way through it. And honestly, that was the beginning of a series of almost like weekly, impromptu conversations that I had with Mike. Every time I'd be up there to grab a drink or something, I just pop into his office and ask questions. And he really, he really, opened up the Judarmy 32 worldview to me and Psalm 82 and what's happening and how an ancient Israel would have understood what's taking place. And so in fact, in the dedication and the introduction, the dedication to the unseen battle, I kind of say, you know, Mike is famous for saying that his biblical worldview changed when he first read Psalm 82, like just the Hebrew grammar, like as he's just reading the Hebrew Bible. Well, my life really, like my biblical worldview and understanding of the

text, really did shift that day that I had this conversation with Mike, where he just asked me a very simple question of like, what do I think I know? And when I had to actually like face that, I realized I knew a lot of things that people told me to think. I didn't really know what the Bible itself said on its own terms. I love his question. Like just throwing it back, it's the most simple question, but well, give me a positive argument for why you don't read the passage the way I'm reading it. And you're like, oh, that's, that's simply. That's brilliant and also simple.

When people talk about energy, recovery, and performance, they usually think of taking protein or energy supplements. I know that's true for me. But one of the most overlooked pieces is gut health. If your gut is not dialed in, everything else struggles to work the way it should. That's where momentous fiber plus comes in. I get it. When you think of fiber, you think of, you know,

staying regular and all those nasty powders that grandma used to keep in her kitchen, but fiber is not just about digestion. It is a key driver of gut health, which directly impacts nutrient absorption, energy stability, recovery, focus, mood, and overall performance. Right now, Momentus is offering our listeners up to 35% off your first order with promo code TITR. Just head over to live momentus.com and use promo code TITR for up to 35% off your first order. Okay, that's livemomenus.com promo code TITR. It's finally here, folks, after three and a half years of research and writing, my new book from Genesis to Junia is available. Oh my word. As a subtitle suggests, this book represents my honest search for what the Bible really says about

women in leadership. I comb through all the major passages that deal with the question of women in leadership. I evaluate the strongest arguments on all sides of the debate, and I do my best to the text determined what we should believe about this important topic. From Genesis to Junie is now available wherever books are sold. So you've mentioned two passages, Psalm 92, Deuteronomy 32. Yeah. Why don't you start with the first one, Psalm 92? That is the one, I believe, Heiser tells a story of when he looked at just kind of a plain Hebrew reading of this passage.

This opens up a whole new way of reading scripture. Can you, I don't know if you want to read it or whatever, just explain those two passages. is. Yeah, I would love to just maybe just read it and kind of work through it. And because I think it's, and you can see it just in the English trend. Like, you know, that's the other wild part about this is like you don't necessarily need to have the Hebrew Bible up and no Hebrew grammar. It will help in a lot of ways. But like, just a plain reading of the text. So Psalm 82, I'm reading from ESV. It just says, God has taken his place in the divine counsel. And right away, you're like, wait a minute. What is the divine counsel? Why would God take his place amongst a divine counsel? And then the next. And then the next. And the next. And the next. And the next. And the next. And the next. And the next. And the next. And the next. And the. And the. And phrases in the midst of the gods, plural, he holds judgment. There's some grammar things that are going on. So you've got singular Elohim in verse one, God, but he's in the midst of an assembly. So that second term, Elohim is going to have to be plural in nature. So you've got singular Elohim. And I love Mike's phrase about this, because some people would misunderstand Mike's position, maybe even my position, to suggest that I hold to like a polytheistic kind of understanding, you know. And it's not that actually. my view, and what Mike would have said is no, Yahweh is Elohim, but no other Elohim could ever be Yahweh. So the way I say it is, Yahweh is the uncreated creator. He's, you know, all things come from him. And so here is God, Yahweh, who's taking his place in this council, in this divine throne room scene. And then it's him pronouncing judgment. Like, this is a judgment scene.

And he says, how long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? And he's speaking, so here, Yahweh, Elohim is speaking to the Elohim, the plural divine beings. Yeah. And he's confronting them. He's confronting them. Yeah. It's like, come, come on. It's time to hold account for your actions and for your behavior. And again, if we think about like a court scene, it's exactly what it is. It's a judge who's sitting down who's now like giving the verdict. Like, hey, by the way, here's what's happening. And so like how long will he judge unjustly? And I think this is like very important. And Preston, I think it's very important for the day that we're in right now. Like, January 27th, 2026, like, there is something that is happening in our world that I have no other answer for than the presence of dark powers working in and amongst not just non-believers, but believers as well, like the household of God. And look at what it's saying, how long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked give justice? and he's like, this is what you should have done. You should have given justice to the weak and the fatherless. You should have maintained the right of the afflicted and the destitute

to rescue the weak and the needy and to deliver them from the hand of the wicked. So this is all the stuff that these Elohim, these fallen gods of the nations, they should have been doing and yet they were not doing. And then verse 5 says they have talking about these Elohim, they have neither knowledge nor understanding. They walk about in darkness. all the foundations of the earth are shaken. And then he kind of names them again.

So in the beginning, you've got God is in the midst of the gods in verse one. And then in verse six, it says, I said, this is Yahweh speaking to the divine counsel. I said, you're Elohim, your gods, your sons of the most high. That phrase, sons of the most high, is lexically connected to another phrase, bena Elohim, the sons of God, which we see show up in the book of Job, the opening pages of Job, and then Deut Army 32, 8 and 9, right along with the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Septuagint. And then definitely in Genesis 6.

So we kind of see this elsewhere. And he says this, all of you, nevertheless, like men, you shall die and fall like any prince. And so this is a judgment upon them. And I had read this so many times precedence.

Verse 8, that actually is the thing that really stuck out to me in my dissertation, which I actually draw out in the unseen battle. And my first reader is a guy named Dr. Patrick Heiser, Patrick Shiner. And Patrick is brilliant, brilliant New Testament scholar, biblical theology guy. And he does a lot of work on the ascension. And when I read this, I was like, Patrick, I think there's something here where we find with the ascension of Christ the fulfillment to what's happening right here in verse 8. And look at what

it says. It says, arise, oh, Elohim. Arise, oh God. Judge the earth, for you shall inherit all the nations. And so there's a couple different ways to read this. The one that I'm kind of convinced of is imagine you have a courtroom scene and in your courtroom scene you have God, Yahweh, the uncreated creator who is giving an indictment against the Elohim, these sons of God they were supposed to have responsibility to uphold the ethics of God's kingdom and yet they go into rebellion. The entire time you have another being almost like it's like a theater room and you've got like screen and then there's like off off scene something else is happening you know there's nobody else can kind of see it and it's almost like this is kind of a poetic play on this for me but it's

like it's the sense of there is this god there is alohem who's waiting in the distance and he's like getting agitated and angry at the injustice and the evil that's done in the world and at the very end yahweh says arise o alohem judge the earth for you shall inherit all the nations well who is this So, wait, this is, this is Yahweh, not speaking now to the divine counsel, but to another singular. To another, yeah. Sounds like Psalm 110 or Psalm 2. Yeah, yeah. So, like, who is it?

Well, my view is like, well, that's Jesus. This is the pre-incarnate Christ. What does Christ actually do, Ephesians 2, 18, 22? He reclaims the nations. This is what Ephesians 1 is talking about, that he sits above all powers and all authorities. And we can get into all of that language of Paul's language of power. and authorities is really a drawing on from the Old Testament understanding of the Sons of God. And so, like, I read this and I go, oh, my gosh, there is the real presence of dark powers in our world

that are working through systems and structures in order to create chaos and division and disunity to really manipulate us into thinking that other image bearers of God are less work. or less of the image, less value, and to really desensitize us to the kind of pain and evil that is permeating throughout our world. And this is the indictment against them. And so it's like, well, who is going to arise? Jesus, this is a deep call for the risen king of heaven and earth, who draws us unto himself and then calls us into the Great Commission.

Like we as believers are called to make disciples of all the nations, the ethnos of the world. And so that's kind of like a reading. And some people would say, well, Joel, how do you know that Yahweh is talking to angelic beings and not human rulers? You know, like the human rulers view. There's a couple of reasons. There's one that I think is just very simple that we should just say like, yeah, that makes the most coherent. Like one of them is that this phrase, this idea of Elohim or judges or rulers being appointed to the Jewish people over all of the nations. is not found in the Hebrew Bible.

You just don't find that, you know? So you've got a problem there just grammatically of trying to find a case where you've got Elohim being used of human authorities and rulers as judges over national powers or national entities. So that's one issue. But the other one is this one. It's just, and to me, it's very, like, kind of simple. It's verse 7, where the consequence to these dark powers is, nevertheless, like men, like men,

You shall die. Yeah. So if they were men, he wouldn't compare him to the men. Yeah, it's kind of incoherent, right? Like, why would, like, it's kind of like looking at me and be like, hey, Joel, here's the consequence that you're going to have. One day you're going to die. To which I'd be like, yeah, I mean, sounds right.

Sounds about right. Death and taxes, the two for sure things in life. For sure things. Well, okay. So can we get really specific on who. slash what are is the divine counsel because you've I mean and this is something in Heiser's work that he used a phrase divine beings and I think that's where now he explained what he meant by that and that's where I think he I correct me if I'm wrong you got accusations of advocating for polytheism and

and you know what do you mean so there's many other gods and but when he described what these divine beings are if he had just used a phrase like spiritual beings or and angelic beings, I don't, I think most people would have been fine, you know. And maybe he was trying to be provocative or stirring people's thinking. So, you know, who or what exactly is this divine counsel, these other Elohim? And why would the author use the same Hebrew term to refer to Yahweh, Jesus, apparently, and the divine counsel? That seems to, I don't know, that seems to put them, I don't know, you tell me, somewhere in between, like an angelic being and another actual GOD God. He uses the term God that's translated God most of the time throughout Scripture. Yeah, I think one is, one maybe, and I want to be careful not to overstep to speak for Mike, you know, but one is, I think, and I know of Mike is that he was very committed to the Hebrew grammar and to read the Bible on its own terms. Yes, that's very, very clear in his writings. Yeah. And so, I think what ends up happening is in our English language, often we have words or terminology that we use that becomes reduced and flat, where they, like, English is kind of notorious for having kind of a catch-all. You know, like, you can just say a phrase and, and you just have to truly depend on context in order to determine, like, what does this actually mean? And so, like, when you have a phrase like Elohim used throughout the Hebrew Bible, I think, you know, what we have is a categorical term that's used of disembodied spiritual beings.

And yet in the English Bible, when it is translated as God or gods, we have in our brain somehow, and I think this is, it's a good place, like where it's come from, you know, like the tradition and why we want to see it this way is to uphold a monotheistic worldview, that God is capital G, God. And yet in so doing, we really start to miss the cosmic worldviews. that was inherent inside of the ancient Near Eastern world that the Old Testament was being written in and in the Greco-Roman context of the New Testament, particularly with Paul. And so when we get that word Elohim, we get it categorically to speak of supernatural divine beings. Well, who is God? God is a supernatural divine being. And the context will help us determine if we're talking about Yahweh, the uncreated creator, sometimes it's explicit and just says Yahweh, or if we're talking about these angelic hosts that are present that God has created as part of his family. So in my book,

I kind of unpacked this concept of the two-family household of God. And so the simple phrase that's used with, that's used in connection with Elohim is like Bene Elohim, the sons of God. And this has familial terminology that's understood. And in the ancient world, it's like God is cast, is presented to us as a king, a cosmic king. And as the cosmic king, kings have a kingdom, kings have citizens inside of that kingdom, and kings have a royal court. They've got trusted individuals that are sent on mission to do the work of the king. And all this goes back to Eden, Preston, where it's like, God plants a garden on top of a

mountain. And the mountains in the ancient worldview were the place where really heaven and earth met. It's the place where God met with humanity. And it's like, why does Eve not freak out when the serpent starts to talk to her? You know? Like, how come she doesn't go, wait a minute, hold up. Why is a serpent? Well, what if the issue was, and this is spiritual warfare, what if the issue wasn't about the appearance of the serpent, but it was actually about the substance of what the serpent said?

Like, angelic beings, supernatural beings were present on Eden, going to, and fro. Guardian cherry being replaced at the outside of Eden to protect it after the fall. And so the serpent comes in and suggests a curious thought to distract and to distance Adam and Eve from the presence of God. And this is ultimately what spiritual warfare is. And so sometimes people are like, well, why does God need a divine counsel? Why would he even do that in the first place? You know, I think Mike had one of the best answers to this. It's like, the question would also be like, well, why did God create humans because he wanted to. It's the king's prerogative to do what he wishes. And I also think it's an indication that we find the pattern of Yahweh that he's determined to not be this distant faraway

deity, you know, kind of like what we have cast in the Greek myths or the Roman myths or the Viking and Norse kind of mythology. It's like, no, God is personal, you know? Like he works in and through creation. He loves creation. And he invites us to be a part of his story, a part of his work and vocation throughout the world. And so, yeah, I would say, like, Elohim is a categorical term. We know the difference between when it's referring to supernatural beings versus when it's referring to God based off of the context that's presented in front of us. And then oftentimes around the adjectives that are used of these beings. So if they're messengers, they're being sent out on task or mission.

And yeah, it was kind of an understood linguistic aspect. Yeah, the question, why would God, whenever people ask me that, well, why would God, I'm like, just stop, I'm probably going to say, I don't know. Unless God has revealed the rationale for doing X, Y, and Z. Let's not, and oftentimes, why would God, those kind of questions, they assume a previous bias about who or what God is and what he's allowed to do. And then we go to the text and say, oh, this doesn't fit kind of my presumptions about who God is. Rather than, like in this case, just saying there is a clear divine counsel. There's other passages, First King, 22. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, the opening page is Genesis. I mean, yeah, Genesis, Job. I mean, yeah, there's all kinds of stuff. The let us language in Genesis 1.26. The reality that in Genesis 11 with the Tower of Babel, it's like Moses, you know, who I think probably wrote the first five books of the Old Testament, like is copying and pasting Genesis 1, the Hebrew of Genesis 1, the let us language is like literally the exact same thing that's being viewed of God coming back down and dealing with the Tower of Babel. Yeah. And then you have Job where it's like a divine counsel scene with the Hasatan that's present. And so you have even that that's taking place there.

You've got all the passages. This is one of those things. It's like, you know, I've never thought about buying a blue Honda Odyssey. Like, you know, I remember, like, I've never was like, and then all of a sudden I had four kids. They were little. And I'm like, babe, we need to, and I'm Indian. So our only option is Hondas.

Like, really, it's Honda. Is that an Indian thing? Hondas? I didn't know that. I'll give my Indian card taken away if I roll up to the potluck within anything other than a Honda. I did not know that. Oh, yeah. And so it's like, that's the only, and you know what happens, Preston?

It's like, the thought comes, it's like, I got to, you know, a blue honda. It's like, you see the blue honda is everywhere. They're everywhere. And it's like, well, did they just magically show up? Well, no, your eyes are just attuned to it now to see it. And I kind of think that's what's happened to me reading through the Bible through this. It's like, wait, I see it everywhere. So like every instance in the Psalms where it talks about God is the commander of the

heavenly host. Yeah. You know, the Lord of Armies. I think NAA translates it, Lord of Armies. I kind of prefer the Lord of hosts because it brings. brings that cosmic reality and that he's a commander, a warrior king. And it's not purely earthly. There are heavenly beings that are his entourage that are doing his work for him and on his behalf. The exiles in Babylon conference is happening again, April 30th to May 2nd in Minneapolis.

And this one is going to be spicy. We're talking about mental health and the gospel. How should the church respond to immigration? We're also having a dialogical debate about Christians and war with Shane Claiborne and Paul Copan. And we're also having another dialogical debate between Peter N. and Sandy Richter over the historical reliability of the Bible. We also added a pre-conference addressing how Christians should think about artificial intelligence. We have several experts coming to lead us in that conversation. Other speakers include Dan Allender, Matthew Sorens, Liliana, Reza, Joshua Smith, Chinway Williams, and several others. And of course, worth the price of admission.

Street Hymbs is coming back as well, folks. Most of all, the in-person experience at exiles is just super unique. I mean, it's, I don't know. If you've been there, you know what I'm talking about. It's hard to describe. You just got to go and experience it for yourself. Just head over to TheologyNorrah.com to register. We also have a heavily discounted Gen Z price.

Don't lie about your age. You've got to be Gen Z. And also discounts on groups of five or more. Again, that's April 30th to May 2nd in Minneapolis. register at theology in the raw.com. I just want to get as much clarity as the Bible allows us to have. So the Bible seems to have categories of spiritual beings, you know, angels, seraphim, cherubim, yeah.

Cherabim, you know, they guard the presence of God. Serafim only, I think they only show up in Isaiah, maybe, Isaiah 6, praising God. Angels, whatever we see angels, they're typically look like. humans or at least they manifest as human. So this is something people often, people often use the term angel as a as a synonym for spiritual being. And I'm like, no, angels are a specific kind of spiritual being. Angels aren't cherubim. Right. They're not. They're, you know, an angel did not guard the Garden of Eden. A cherubim did. Yes. If you see the description of cherubim in Ezekiel 1 and Ezekiel 10, you know, four faces and four, all these things,

if that showed up like to Abraham and Genesis, he wouldn't say, hey, what's up? He would, yeah, he would probably mess himself. I almost said something different. You know, like, so angels are not cherubim, cherubim, cherubim are not seraphim. Seraphim are not angels. Where does the divine counsel fit? Is this another category of spiritual being? Or is it on a different level than seraphim, cherubim angels?

Yeah. That's a great question. Preston. So I think, one, I'm hesitant to get into taxonomy classifications because of exactly what you just said. I don't think that the Bible is particularly interested in giving us kind of like the gloss of every kind of spiritual entity, what their vocation is, what their function is. It's more concerned of like helping us see how the cosmic, like the supernatural realm and the earthly realm are intersecting together. I think this is the point of Jacob's ladder. You know, you've got these messengers who're coming up and down. In the New Testament, we've got Jesus who's literally the latter. You know, he is the

meeting's point between heaven and earth. And so that's there. Now, I would say this, that it seems that the Bible does create a distinction in terms of a category of a group of supernatural beings that are part of this divine counsel and seem like they're like the inner circle per se. Like, you know, Jesus has the 12, but he's got his inner, inner three, you know, it's kind of like the same concept. And that phrase that's used for those beings is this phrase, sons of God. And so that phrase been to Elohim, and this would probably get us into Judah Army 32, 8 and 9, that phrase is used of these angelic beings that have a responsibility.

They've been given a stewardship to the nations of the world. And yet, they go into rebellion. They elicit worship. They elicit idolatry. They try to tempt Israel away from Yahweh. And in so doing, they go into rebellion. And these beings of Judaism 32, 8, and 9 that are allotted to the nations as guardians and stewards that go into rebellion, they are cast throughout the Old Testament as the

gods of the nations. Now, how that works? And, you know, is it a one-for-one deity? Like all of that? there's a lot of educated speculation we could probably make. But I would say that that phrase, particularly the Sons of God, is a phrase that is connected to a subset of the divine council that were given stewardship over the nations in Duda Army 32, 8, and 9. It's the same group. I don't know if it's the exact same group or a different group. The Bible just doesn't tell us of

Genesis 6. So if you opt for a human ruler's view of Genesis 6, it's not an issue for you. But if you don't, like me, I opt for a supernatural reading of Genesis 6, along with the earliest interpreters of Scripture, like Philo opts for a supernatural reading of Genesis 6. It's like, who are these sons of God that, you know, coming into an unholy union with the daughters of man? They are part of this subset of divine counsel beings, divine beings that go into rebellion against God. Yeah, we have a lot of passages to get to DeNor 132 and now Genesis 6. I let me just start I have a question but I

Genesis 6 I don't know I it's talking about spiritual I mean Genesis 6 was like the John 316 of first century or early Judaism like this is a passage yes so many Jewish books

not just talk about but they were fascinated by Jubilees and Enoch and yeah you know others and I as far as I remember you can correct me if I'm wrong this passage, Genesis 6, widely talked about in early Judaism, was unanimously interpreted as these are spiritual beings who had sex with humans. It's why we have, yeah, yeah. And it's alluded to, if not cited by this interpretation by Jude and 2 Peter.

So I just, I remember looking at that years ago and I'm like, I just don't see how you get around that. Plus, you have the language of sons of God and daughters, you know, sons of God is typically. I mean, it's like a hit the hit list, right? Like it's the earliest use writings is like first Enoch, Jubilees, the Septuagint of Genesis 6, like, oh really? Okay. An angelic, yep, an angelic reading. Philo, Josephus, you know, you've got fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls that are opting for this. Justin Martyr kind of basically opts for this as well. And so yeah, again, it's like the earliest, the earliest reading of it was a supernatural reading. We get caught up because it just doesn't like, like, I think in terms of our rationalization, like our 21st century mind,

like it's really difficult for us to be like, how do, you know, angelic beings like, but then again, to your point, how can angelic beings eat with Abraham? Right. You know, how can they be corporeal and walk around and be recognized as masculine figures throughout, you know? And so the Bible just isn't interested. And one of the famous ones is like, well, don't you know what Jesus says that we're not to be given in marriage. It's like, what does Jesus say and what does he not say? He says that we won't be given into marriage like the angels. He doesn't say that we won't, like that the angels can't have sex. Like that's not, you know. And so the nature of how this happens, I think I am not so wooden like, like committed that it has to be. Like I think that

what we have in the text is the, is the reality that there was an unholy union. That's kind of why I kind of opt for that. Like they, there's this unholy union. The way, the way. way in which the union took place. I'm not quite sure. I tend to think that it was just, they had sex. I think that that's probably what happened. And they produced these nephalim, these giants, which again, it brings coherence to the stories of Hercules and Achilles. Like, where do these mythic stories come from? You know, what is the origin? And kind of my basic view precedent has always been, the biblical story is always the one true story, you know? and there are dark powers that want to manipulate and distort truth in order to meet their own needs.

It's kind of like the example I have to get in here is you notice that whenever the question of who the greatest of all time is in terms of basketball comes up. Yeah, whatever I'm with you and Darwin, yeah, it's funny. You guys debate two things. iPhones versus whatever and then Android and then Jordan versus. LeBron Yeah, no, and you blanked on it because you already know who the greatest is of all time. That was a Freudian slip, just so you know.

Derwin, Derwin, Derwin is stewing in anger right now that he's not part of this conversation. 100% he's going to text you, just wait. So he's a LeBron. He says LeBron is better than, we don't need. We can have a whole, like, after, after dark like podcasts on that. Like, but like the point is like, when have you ever heard Jordan says? that he's the greatest of all time. He doesn't have to. The one true story doesn't need to validate itself because it is the, it is the true story, all the competing stories. And that's

what I think is happening in Genesis. That's what I think is happening with Genesis 6. And so, yeah, I think that all this is really important for us because it gives us insight into the nature of the dark parts. I want to come back to the sons of God, the many Elohim. You said that's a they're a subset, they're more in the category of the divine council, a subset of the divine council. And it almost seems like, according to your description, and this might lead us into Deuteronry 32, that their focus, like angels have a focus of being messengers, cherubim, guarding the presence of God. It seems like the sons of God as a subset of the divine council have more of a geopolitical, national focus. And it made me think of, what is it, Daniel 10?

the, you know, Michael going to fight the Prince of Persia, which is a divine being that is overseeing this nation, and then he's going to go off and fight the, what, the Prince of Greece or something after. So with, and this gets into my political theology a little bit, that there are demonic powers or whatever phrase you want to use, divine, spiritual, whatever powers behind the nations, and they get corrupted. And even the book of revelation, right? I mean, the dragon literally, literally, yeah, literally empowers the beast. The beast is Rome. The dragon is Satan.

And so when we, and I just think we, I'm not going to, I don't get too far off. I want to get confirmation from you that I'm thinking along the right lines. But when we think about political theology, when we think about politics and nations and rulers and government, we cannot separate this from the demonic. realm. Even Paul, you know, he often uses principalities and powers and rulers and authorities to refer to what you're talking about, some kind of divine spiritual being. But then sometimes

you know, he'll use the same terms to refer to the Roman Empire. And it's like, well, it's kind of a there's a blurry line. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's a both end. So yeah, let's hit, there's a lot here. Let's do Dutormi 32. 8.9. And then I do want to build the bridge then into the New Testament because really what I'm, a lot of what I'm doing in the early chapters is I'm kind of representing, putting some inflection points on some of Mike's work earlier. But I think the reason why Mike was so interested in me as a doctoral student is because of the

work that I wanted to do with Paul. Like I kind of wanted to see how does Paul deploy a Deutormy 32 worldview or cosmic worldview in his letters, particularly in the letter that he writes to the church in emphasis? And so I think all this is kind of important. So, Durham 3, 2, 8, and 9. I'm reading again from the ESP, it says, when the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance. Now, again, notice the inheritance language.

That is a cross-connection all the way back to Psalm 82. There's this idea of what Jesus' vocation is in the re-inheritance of the nations, in Ephesians 2, 18, through 22, we'll get there. So when the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind? So we have to ask the question, when did God first divide mankind? When was the division of mankind? So the Tower of Babel?

Babel. It would be Babel when humanity was first divided. And then you do get into interesting geopolitical terminology when he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. Oh, wow. Exactly. So I do a lot of stuff in the book kind of working through this. But depending on your Bible translation, your reading there might say Sons of Israel. It might say Sons of Israel.

Right, yeah. Isn't there a text critical issue there? Exactly. Exactly. There's a text critical issue. The Miseratic text has Sons of Israel. Lots of questions over why the Mastartic text has Sons of Israel. My kind of running thought, scholarly thought, is I think there's an intentional scribal decision

to kind of promote monotheism. Like there's this fear that ancient Israel religion would have came from a polytheistic background. Anyways, that's much smarter people than I can deal with that. But what is really important is the Septuagint opts for according to the angels of God, according to the angelic messengers. So now you have an issue because you've got the Maseretic text, which is the sons of Israel, but you have the Septuagin, which is opting for an angelic reading over here. There's a New Testament scholar by the name of G.B. Kaird. and Caird was brilliant New Testament dude. And at one point in his commentary, I was working through this in my dissertation process.

He was the first New Testament scholar that I could find that was reading through the subtergent of the Old Testament in this passage and said, there's something off here. That there seems to be a text critic issue, an emendation that was made. And it's likely that the correct reading is the subterigent reading, which would be the angels of God. Well, years later, guess what's found? The Dead Sea Scrolls. And the Dead Sea Scrolls do what? They affirm the Ben A Elohim, the Sons of God reading.

And so now, like the ESV opts in the main text line to say Sons of God. Other Bible translations probably have a little footnote to it. So if it opts for Sons of Israel and the footnotes, it will say Septuagin or Dead Sea Scrolls, Sons of God. And so it's like, well, what is the correct reading? I think the correct reading would be Sons of God based off of the textual evidence that's present. to us. Now, with that information, DeNormine 32, 8, and 9, verse 9 says, but the Lord's portion is his people, Jacob, his allotted heritage, right? So in Genesis 11, the way I try to describe this is kind of like a Marvel scene. Like, I was huge. Still, I'm a big Marvel guy. And, you know,

there was this time where everybody goes to the movies and you're just waiting for the end credit scene. Like the end credit scene is going to be like the most epic scene ever, you know? I remember the first one for Iron Men where they found Thor's Hammer, you know, in the desert. And it's like the whole like theater erupted. Like it's like, oh my gosh. And there's a part of me that just reads like, okay, imagine reading Genesis 11. You're going through it and the languages are diversified and the people are divided, but they spread out into the world.

And it's almost like there's an end credit scene. And the end credit scene is Dude Army 32, 8, and 9, where you get to see a glimpse into the cosmic reality of what's taking place as these nations are dispersed, you know? And so the language is that the nations are disinherited from God because of the rebellion. There has to be a consequence to their sin. And yet what God does is he allots, or he grants stewardship responsibility for these nations to these trusted divine council members, these sons of God. The problem is, and then he keeps Jacob, he keeps Israel as his own inheritance, right? And there's something that I think is very important. This is why Genesis 12 coming on the heels of Genesis 11 is vitally important. I've got a buddy of mine. His name

Hakeem Bradley. I'm not sure if you know Hakeem. Hakeem is brilliant. He's a PhD student, I think, at Ridley. And he's doing his work on James. His dissertation is on James, but he's like a Hebrew Bible guy. And, you know, most Hebrew scholars, like, they love Genesis 1 through 11. It's like, if you get Genesis 1 through 11 right, you're going to get the recoup, right? And I kind of push back on him as a biblical theology guy. And I'm like, dude, why do you guys always hate on Abraham? Like, add Genesis 12 into it because Genesis 12 is like the bookends of this whole thing. And like, I think it's very important that we have Genesis 12, Preston, because Genesis 12, you have the call of Abram. Where does Abram come from, Er of the Chaldeans? Where is Erv the Chaldeans, roughly the vicinity

of Babel? So you have God calling a man in his family out of the epicenter of rebellion in order to be an agent of reconciliation and reunion for all the nations of the world. This is the Abrahamic covenant of Genesis 12, 15, 17, and 22. And so what we have in Judar Army 32, 8, and 9 is the backdrop of the rest of the Old Testament, which is where we get the gods of the nations and where we get cosmic geopolitical warfare. God is determined to have his people on their land. And consistently, he's like, and by the way, be very careful of the nations around you. Don't go after their gods. Don't go after their Ashropoles.

The entire Libypical Code, I think, is in a way ordered in so to keep the people holy and set apart distinct. But vitally important, a path to invite the Gentiles into the people. There's a process. It's painful. It's called circumcision. But there's a way. There's a way for you to come in. And so it wasn't isolationism or build a man.

society, it was to be a holy people who were set apart for God and to be a winsome witness to the nations to invite them back in. And yet there are dark powers that are over these geopolitical areas that are absolutely, like the simplest way I would say it is like, man, they hate us. They absolutely hate us because we bear the image and likeness of God. And so they could never defeat God. So what is the, like I'm a dad. I've got four kids, man. Like you could hurt me all you want, but you hurt one of my kids. Like one of my kids comes home from school and got bullied or my daughter had this moment the other day where she's got really curly hair and she came home and she was like, Daddy, I'm not pretty.

I'm like, and she's five. I'm like, baby, why do you say that? She said, because I have curly hair and all the, all the girls at school have straight blonde hair. And, you know, it's like, man, you could, I would rather take like a nail through my hand, you know, then it's like, well, how do you hurt the heart of God? man, you divide and destroy and distract his people from his love. And so I think there's like a very pastoral theological application

to what's happening from a textual standpoint in Deutorme 32, 8, and 9, because we're still dealing with these issues. So the theology or the, how do I say, the extrapolation of what's happening in Deuteronry 32, 8 and 9 is seen in geopolitical terms in Daniel 10, which you rightly identified. You've got Daniel who prays and like prayer is a weapon of warfare in spiritual warfare. It's like, and I love what the text says. It's like the angel comes to him and says, Daniel, because of your prayer, right?

I've heard you because of your prayers. Now, I got caught up. There's some other cosmic conflict. It took me a little bit to get to you. It's a wild passage. It's a wild. Wild passage. And yet you have the presence of real geopolitical warfare.

And you have God who comes to the aid of his people. through cosmic means and the conduit to that help was prayer, you know? And so, and then when Paul, and we can kind of jump into Ephesians a little bit here, this, I don't know, where and how. I've got a quick question. No, I want to go to Ephesians. So the sons of God, Deut Army 32, appointed to oversee various nations. Are they good or bad?

Were they good originally and some turned bad? did they all turn bad? And then would Levick maybe comment on Job 1 because you had the Sons of God and Satan or the accuser? The accuser. Waltz it, ralts it around God's throne room for some weird reason. Yeah.

Can you unpack that a little bit? A sons of God, good, bad, used to be good, became bad. Once again, it's like the taxonomy thing. Is this a holistic view that all the sons of God go? I'm not quite sure. I don't think that's the case. I think there's a subset of them that are allotted to the nations. So if you look at a passage like Deuteronomy 419, this is the warning that God gives.

Like verse 19 says, and beware lest you raise your eyes to the heaven. And when you see the sun and the moon and the stars and all the host of heaven, the phrase host of heaven is used in reference often to the sons of God or to the angelic host. And so all the host of heaven, you be drawn away and bow down to them and serve them. them. Things, and this is the allotment language, things that the Lord your God has allotted to all the peoples under the whole heaven. And so here you get the sense that there is the stewardship sense that God had for a season allowed for these angelic hosts, but now they've gone into rebellion because now they're actually trying to elicit the worship of Israel, you know,

which if they're trying to list at the worship of Israel, we would imply that they've already done this to the nations themselves, and so they've gone into rebellion. And then there's another passage, Deuteronomy 3217, that I think is really important. And it uses a different Hebrew word Shadim, which is what we would in English translate as demons. But it says in talking about the people, it says they sacrificed to demons, Shadim, Shadu, that were no gods, Elohim. To Elohim, they had, or Loja, they had never, they had never known to new gods, to new Elohim that had come recently whom your fathers had never dreaded. And so here you have the contrast

between demonic entities being cast as Elohim, which are supernatural beings that elicited, that drew the worship of humanity. And yeah. And then Job, one. Yeah.

Yeah, what's going on Job? Yeah, I mean, Job, what is going on? Set up the debate. Who is this? We just read Satan, but there's a debate about whether it's Satan as we know it, right? Yeah, this is one of the areas that Mike and I disagreed on. So this is, this was one of the fun kind of things.

Mike was like a Hebrew scholar guy. I'm much more of a biblical theology guy. Another just maybe clarification as well, Preston, there's a good part of me that just feels very, I feel like even though I defended my dissertation has been like five or six years now, I still feel very much like I'm JV in all of these conversations. Like it just feels like I'm punching out of my weight class. I think that Mike had this phrase. He was like, man, he was so passionate about collecting dots, connecting dots, and communicating those dots. And he was a primary sources guy working with primary text. I find myself more of a biblical theology guy. And so I love drawing on the dots that have already been collected in all these areas, but really connecting them in ways that are meaningful for us and then communicating them. And so one of the things that Mike and I kind of went round on is this Job 1 situation. who's this satan figure.

And, you know, Mike would make, and other Hebrew scholars would say the grammar would say that when you have the article in front, you know, the Ha Satan, that this is a title, not the identity. The accuser, not the not, right. A personal name, right? Yeah. It's kind of like like Michigan. I think it's a Michigan. I'm not a big college guy, college football guy, but it's like the Michigan or like,

what is the phrase? The Ohio State. The Ohio State. The Ohio State, right? Like they always have, you know, in front of it. And so, you know, from a grammar standpoint, we'd say, oh, this is a vocation, this is a title, a person who's got this job and this responsibility. And I think a lot of Hebrew scholars, I know Mike would be very hesitant for us to read Satan into that because he would want us to read that text on its own terms. I disagree in this sense.

we have the whole canon of scripture in front of us and there is God who is knitting these pieces together in order for us to see something that is taking place. And so I have no problem reading into based off of New Testament passages of the accuser, the temptation scene with Jesus in the wilderness, reading back with the Nakash, the serpent all the way in Genesis 3 and saying, hey, I think there is first and foremost an accuser, a member of the divine counsel who had this task and this role in vocation. And we as believers today, we're meant in our mind to be thinking, oh, and this is the work of enemy. This is what Satan does. You know, this is how he goes about giving accusation and enjoying it. Like, you get

this sense of this accuser, like, loves what he's doing and it's trying to prove the point that humanity is going to fail. And so that's what I think is happening in Job. Okay. Okay. So, it's not, wait, so you're, you do think it's, or you don't think it's Satan. I don't think that grammatically it is Satan based off of, you know, the article, but I'm not opposed to reading into that passage and saying we're supposed to see the tactics, the enemy of Satan, that they work like this. It's a bad spiritual being, not a good spiritual being, is that? To put it in fifth grade language.

Yeah, yeah. I think it's a spiritual being. being that loves his job way too much and crosses into just doing his job wrong. Interesting. Okay. Yeah. Didn't Heiser say, I thought he, I thought that's the view he took. Did he or did he say this is? He didn't want us to cast him as Satan though. Oh, right, right, right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm kind of okay with that. Okay. And he's just, I was Satan. I mean, Satan because. So in, sorry, the divine counsel thing. So within the. divine counsel, you have, do you have members that are totally on board with Yahweh's program and

others that are like, I don't know if I'm on board? Like, do you have, for lack of better terms, good and bad members of the divine council that God gets together and he's got some that are kind of more rebellious and some that are not? It's not just a bunch of people who are on his side, or do we not have enough information to kind of know exactly? Yeah, I don't think we have enough information. And I, and my suspicion is that based off of the rebellions of Genesis 6, in Genesis 11, like, Dood Army 3, 28, and 9, any of those beings that had any kind of doubt or like any kind of like, I don't like this Yahweh kingship, like, direction, they're bouncing, you know? They're kind of in rebellion. And so, and I don't think that these incursions are happening now.

Like, I don't think like you've got divine beings who are like today thinking, you know what? I think I'm outy. Like, I don't think I want to do this anymore. And the reason why is because of the judgment scene of Psalm 82. Psalm 82 makes it very explicit. And you've got the victory of Jesus on the cross. It would be kind of ridiculous to think of angelic divine beings. Yeah, just abdicating their role and their responsibility in the divine council in order to join a rebellious entourage. So by the time we get to the New Testament, I guess a good segue, we now have more of a clear division between the divine counsel that is on God's side and then the others who have, like you said, bounced and rebelled and now they're overseeing the Roman Empire. They're kind of embedding themselves

in the geopolitical or even just the structures of humanity. Yeah. And I think sometimes what ends up happening is people can get this assumption that they're all like well-ordered, you know, like they're all like working in lockstep. I don't get the sense. I think that they're all kind of like warlords, it feels like. know, and they're all kind of like at each other's throats, but the enemy of my enemy is my friend. And so there's like these unholy alliances that kind of come together, which is also why, like, you have like this, I just read this interesting book on like, I think it's like the 800-year war between Persian Rome. And like it's like a historical, like Tom Holland recommended it.

The historian, not the Spider-Man. And like, it's just fascinating because all the way throughout this like history is you have the people of Israel. Like, this is a sense. secular historical book, you know, but you've got the people of Israel consistently and you've got this constant vying for power between the Persians and the Romans. And there's this uneasy settled alliance between them at various points in time because they've got other enemies to deal with. They've got other situations, other fronts to kind of navigate. And I think that's a helpful maybe layering for what's happening in the spiritual realm of there's a real enemy that hates us, but they're also like hate each other too.

Like they're not all just, you know, hanging out trying to have kumbaya by the fire together. Yeah. That's a good, yeah, that makes sense. By the time you get into the New Testament, Paul uses specific terminology for these beings that are in the, like in the context of the divine counsel, the sons of God. Jesus and the Gospels, this is,

I don't even know if we've got time or you want to go here. When Jesus gets into the Gospels and, he like Luke chapter four is one of my favorite passages you know and you've got demon exorcism and you've got this evil spirit that comes out and cries out and says um we know we and this is the plural which is wild we know who you are you know you're the son of god you're the holy one the most high what what are you doing here basically and um and then jesus later in the gospel of luke says like hey he's being accused of being the devil and he's like like a house divided upon itself can't stand. Like if I cast out demons in the name of the Lord, it's the announcement of the

kingdom of God coming into the world. And that's exactly what Jesus does. He casts out demons. The question is, who are these demons? When the gospel writers are using the language of demons are often using the phrase like unclean spirits or evil spirits. Well, what are unclean evil spirits? This takes us all the way back to Genesis 6, which is why some of this matters. The Nephalim are these hybrid beings that are half divine and half human. And in being half divine and half human, when they die, their souls have no place to go. They're unclean. And so they're left wandering the earth. And there's a bunch of Second Temple literature that is written kind of casting the fallen spirits of the Raphaim, these warrior giant kings as being these demonic entities that are

territorial in nature. And they are run around causing havoc. And so, So when Jesus is dealing with these spirits, he's really dealing with, my view, is that he's dealing with the unclean spirits, the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim that have been trapped on earth that have been just gone mad and causing chaos. Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot. There's a lot with that. The last thing, Preston, I can't go without giving you this one little thing. I think that this conversation for me is so important. We got into a lot of details. We got into like sons of God, divine I love all of that.

And in the book, read the footnotes, the scholarship's there. You can disagree with me. That's great. Like I honestly don't really mind if you disagree with me. I think it's fun when you do. Here's the one thing I would say,

and hopefully no one disagrees about this, is that our conversation when it comes to spiritual warfare and this unbattle and this unseen battle is a conversation that ought to come from the perspective of the victory of Jesus at the cross. Like, we don't come into this with confusion.

We don't come into this with chaos or anxiety, we ought to come at it from the place that Jesus secured for us, which is victory over the dark powers, the disarming and the stripping of their ability to blind us from the truth of the gospel. And I want us to come from that. And here's the other word of warning. I want us to be careful of real dark powers that want to entice us with spiritual things that are deceptive things. Things like astrology and tarot cards and energy crystals and ayahuasca and DMT, these are not None of this is new or novel, and we have a world now that is deconstructing and is opting for spiritualized ideas and experiences, and they are abdicating the one thing that will give them true

life, and that is the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit. Like, what need do we as believers have for tarot cards or astrology or reading of the signs, all the stuff? We've got the very spirit of God that raised Jesus from the dead. like we don't need that mess, you know? And so I do want to just give kind of like my pastoral kind of hat on this a little bit of I love the nuance, all the details. I love talking about Nephilim and all this other stuff.

But like, man, don't miss Jesus. If we miss Jesus, we will miss everything. Joel, that's a great ending. Thank you so much. Love your scholarship. Love your heart, especially your pastoral heart. And I know we're just out of time. But can you stick around for, I want to dig deeper into the Nepali, okay?

Because I've got every time. you've been talking of and writing down nephalim nephalim nephalim so uh we'll put this on our extra innings portion if you want to listen to joel and i mix it up about the nephaline then uh you can go to patreon.com forward slash the algin raw and get access to the extra endings portion of this episode okay