Theology in the Raw - Suburban Pastor with an Urban Mindset: David Brickey

Episode Date: March 3, 2025

Dave Brickey has been a pastor for over 20 years and currently serves as lead pastor at Church of the Open Door in Maple Grove, MN. Dave and his team are also the host church of this year's "Exiles in Babylon" conference (April 3-5, 2025). Find out more at theologyintheraw.com . Dave is a pastor of a church in the suburbs and has a radical, kingdom-minded heart. We talk about what this looks like in the context of church ministry.  -- If you've enjoyed this content, please subscribe to my channel! Support Theology in the Raw through Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theologyintheraw Or you can support me directly through Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Visit my personal website: https://www.prestonsprinkle.com For questions about faith, sexuality & gender: https://www.centerforfaith.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. My guest today is my new friend, Dave Bricky, who I got to know over this last year or so. Dave has served in the local church in various pastoral roles for 23 years. He's currently lead pastor of Church of the Open Door in Maple Grove, Minnesota, just outside Minneapolis. You might be familiar with the church because they are hosting this year's exiles in Babylon conference. That's how Dave and I got to know each other. We get requests from churches around the country to host the exiles conference and we have

to kind of weigh what looks like a good fit, what fits in with our schedule and everything. And man, we immediately resonated so much with the heart of Dave and his team. They were so eager to host this conference and you'll see why as you get to know Dave in this conversation. While I'm on the theme of exiles, if you want to register for the conference, theologyintherod.com space is filling up. It's already, I think it's less than a month away. So if you do plan on attending live, you're going to want to register ASAP. There's also the live stream option that you can do as well. If you can't make it out to Minneapolis,

I would highly encourage you, if at all possible for you to get out and make it out in person. There's just something about that in-person experience that's just really special. We've got lots of breakouts. We've got a pre-conference with the Holy Post is gonna be there.

Lots of after parties and so many cool things happening along with just all the stuff we're going to talk about at the conference. So the Algera.com and yeah, April 3rd to 5th in Minneapolis. All right. Please welcome to the show for the first time, the one and only pastor Dave Brickey, man, I am looking forward to this conversation. I'm going to assume most of my audience probably doesn't know who you are. So why don't you give us a little background? Who are you and how did you get into ministry? Let's start there.

Yeah. Yeah, man. It's great. It's really good to be on here with you. Yeah. So right now, currently, I serve Church of the Open Door. I serve them as their pastor. It's a church in suburbs of Minneapolis, St. Paul. But I've been in ministry over 20 years now. I'm going to say 22, 23 years. I don't know how I got into ministry. So I'll just summarize the journey like this. It really started with where I gave my life to Christ. So I grew up with some disabilities.

I was born blind. I was blind till about third grade. Are you serious? Yeah. And I had surgeries in third grade. Yeah, and it plays into the whole picture of ministry. So I had surgeries in third grade that allowed me to see a lot of learning disabilities, a lot of intense bullying. As I went through that season of life, the remedy for bullying was rebellion for me. And I found myself mid high school, put into a private school. And this private school is connected to a church. And so, the short version of the story is the superintendent and the principal of the school were actually really instrumental in leading me to Christ.

And so, there was a youth ministry at that church. The youth ministry was just kind of its own ecosystem, for better or for worse, about a thousand kids. And I got swept up in this ministry. And I thought that was like how it all was everywhere. And I was invited to come in out of high school to train to be a pastor. And I didn't know you could do that. It just clicked. I've already given my life to this thing and I can actually do that for my whole life. So it was less of a like, I have this ambition. It was more like the pieces just kind of clicked together and I just started walking this road as it was being laid out in front of me. And so,

and looking back, there's a lot of beauty and brokenness in that season for sure. But I guess that's the journey. And so, I started pretty much right out of high school interning as kind of like an intern pastor, doing a lot of study correspondence and things like that. And gosh, here I am 20 something years later. And the church you pastor, was it planted from Woodland where people might know Woodland from Greg Boyd's, the pastor there? What's the connection between your church and Woodland? Yeah, actually, Greg was a part of this church many years ago. And in fact, he could tell the story better than me, but Dave Johnson,

who was a senior pastor here for 38 years, one of my dearest friends, he stepped out for a sabbatical and Greg stepped in to fill in the pulpit and the Lord really opened up his world to the vision of pastoring. And then Woodland Hills was planted out of Church of the Open Door. So it's opposite. Okay. So with them is playing out of, okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And so they get together once a year and have cigars and share war stories and it's great. War stories. That's funny. Yeah. Well, he has had a few war stories in ministry for sure. He has. And you know, our weapons of warfare, love.

Well, you know, I've gotten to know you because you're... I'm not sure how the connection was made. I think you guys reached out and said, hey, if you ever need a church to host the Exiles Conference, we would love to do it. And long story short, you're doing it. So, we're going to be out there in early April for the Exiles Conference. But that, I mean, that alone, you know, it takes a certain kind of church to want to eagerly, like you guys were over the moon, like, and I kept, I almost tried to talk you down from it. Like, Hey, if you do this, you're probably going to get some emails, like you're going to get flack, like don't go on social media for six months around the time of the

conference, you know, and you're like, oh no, I don't care. That's totally fine. We love what you're doing and we believe, we resonate with how you're approaching things. All right, let's do it. And you guys have been just over the top. Yeah, anyway, I'm thrilled that you guys are hosting this conference. But then getting to know you a little bit, I'm like, man, here you are, a pastor of a church in the suburbs on a massive plot of land. I've seen, I've never been there. I've seen pictures. I'm like, this is just a beautiful, nice building.

I don't know. I don't want to ask you how much it would sell for. But you don't seem wired. But you don't seem wired. I don't mean this in a negative way, but like a traditional suburban pastor. Can you unpack that for us a little bit? Do you feel like a fish out of water or what's going on in your neck of the woods? Yeah. Well, it's interesting, fish out of water. And I probably need a little bit more therapy to figure it out, but I've always felt like a fish out of water. I truly was nervous at

the idea. This situation here found me. I wasn't looking for this, and I was hesitant to... You look at the exterior of any situation and you can really define the interior by that. What I discovered over the discernment journey at Open Door is that they had a very different interior than the story that the exterior tells. Yeah, so the church was more of an urban church many years ago. And when they moved a little over 20 years ago to Maple Grove, there was a bit, and this is something we've talked regularly about as a church, they've talked about it before I even came here, a little bit of an identity crisis. But what I discovered, as you get to know the heart of a community,

that that root system is still very much there. It's interesting, wintertime is a very real season that all churches go through, but there's things that are happening under the surface if you can get to it. And it's funny, when I first was in this discernment process, I was hoping that what I was smelling, what I was seeing was actually real. You know, a few years down the road, I want to look back and go, yes, like that heart is there. And truly, that's been my experience. I'm going on, it'll be five years in November, and there is this beautiful heart and hunger to use to steward the circle of influence we have, the land and resources we have for the kingdom of God, to see our little sphere reordered to look a little bit more like heaven. They have prayed

for decades to use this land and this land for the kingdom of God, for it not just to sit here looking pretty. And this blew me away. When I was in the discernment process, Dave Fredrickson, who's a dear friend of mine, he was a chairperson or chairman of the board at the time, he told me, he said, we actually have been longing to figure out how God wants to use this land. And we actually got to a point where we're on our knees saying, if we can't figure out how to use it, give it to somebody, give it to somebody who can. And I was so attracted to that. I know maybe some people could be pushed away by that, but I'm thinking like, who would pray that prayer? Like, like we don't want this if we can't figure out what to do with it. And so there is a beating heart

here to, to re-envision this being less of an event center and more of a homestead of healing and wholeness for the community. So that's kind of how we've been talking about. What is that? Can you get into some of the detail? Like what does that look like? What does that mean? Yeah, sure. Yeah. And how, real quick, how big of a land? You told me offline, but just so the audience knows, like it's a big plot of land you guys are sitting on, right? Yeah. It's like in between 30 and 40 acres, just kind of like right in the middle of the city. Yeah,

it is. It's a big plot of land and the location of it. I mean, it's just insane. So for us, we're still discovering what that means. So I'd say we're in the midst of discovery. But for me, it's less about taking an awesome vision on how we want to accomplish God's work and asking God to bless it. And it's more, God, give us eyes to see what you're already doing. Kingdom stories aren't new stories many times. They're old stories with new chapters. And so, even coming here, I didn't want to come here with a new shiny vision, but just to spend a lot of time learning what already is here to nurture that. And as I began to discover this heart, for us, it's about proximity. Who has God given us proximity with? You know, we have two schools

that meet at our church, two very different demographics in these schools. One of them has some food scarcity. And so it's been a really great partnership with this public school to be able to say, yeah, no, that's not... So we're saying, no, that's not the kingdom. What I'm discovering with the heart of this school leadership team is they long for the same things, even though it's not under the umbrella of Christian, which is such a fascinating journey. And so, the city reached out to us to do the farmers market here, and so, because they have a lot of construction going on. And so, those become easy yeses, because it's coming alongside these old prayers of, Lord, what can you do with this land? And right now, we're in the

process of planting a 12-home, what's called a sacred settlement. And eight of those homes, tiny homes, will be for people moving out of chronic homelessness. And four of those homes will be people like you and me who've never experienced homelessness moving in to be intentional neighbors, not to lead the community, but just to model being a good neighbor. And this is, these are permanent homes. And so we're in the process of, it's a massive project. And what's wild though, where the beginning of that project, we already have people on a waiting list to potentially move in as intentional neighbors. Really? Yes. To live with people coming off of the streets.

Yes. Yep. And we've already been a part of planning to, again, this is not an open door thing. This is way bigger than open door. There's an organization, a nonprofit called Settled. One of the co-founders has been a part of our church. One of our pastors lives as an intentional neighbor. So we've helped plant two already with other

churches. So other churches will come along and help us plant this. Different churches will build homes, very ecumenical, very unified around, I mean, it's a powerful unifying experience. So this is on, you're building home, 12 homes on the 30, 40 acres of the church. So you can have a bunch of homeless people, formerly homeless people now living on the church property. And your church is stoked about that. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think some people might be like, you know, I mean, cause not everyone in the community is stoked about that because there's lots of preconceived ideas on, on, on what this actually means. And it's a new kind of model. Most housing

models are housing first models and people are on waiting lists. This is not a housing first, it's a community first model. Community first means it's the belief that healing comes through community, not through a home. And so, there's like, you know, half a dozen layers of community and support, the church coming around, individuals that actually, and they're doing life together. And these, we planted two, they're two and a half, three years in now, and they've been some of the most beautiful holistic expressions of the kingdom of God that I've seen. That's, that's, wow. And is, so you're in Maple Grove, a suburb of Minneapolis. Is it like a socioeconomically, is it pretty like upper middle class? Is it predominantly white

or what's the, like, what's the, tell us about your community. Yeah, definitely Maple Grove has a trajectory of growing in diversity. I think this whole area of Minnesota is growing in diversity, but it is predominantly upper middle class and white, predominantly, yeah. Pete Okay. Is that Reflector Church as well? Jared Yeah, yeah, it does. It does. We have a desire. Diversity is so interesting. We're very generationally diverse. We're very politically diverse, which is a fascinating journey pastoring. I say it's a beautiful thing, but it's harder work to do that. But then culturally diverse, we want to grow more

that way, but how to do that in a way that isn't forced is something that we're learning. And there's wonderful churches and guides around our community that are doing great work there that we're excited to be led by in that. So, yeah, what's the hope? So, once this project's finished, like, if you can fast forward five years, like, what kind of like spiritual impact would you love to see this new venture have on your community? Yeah, yeah. Because it's not, I would say it's not just a project or an initiative, it is a lifestyle change.

Yeah. And so, to me, I have to continue to tell myself that there are real humans on the streets who are ready to, they're actually ready to move out of homelessness and they're the main goal. At the same time, as a pastor, I am really excited for the journey our church will take because I think in some strange ways, this is our salvation. The suburban, just the layout in our country, it insulates us from the poor, from the weak, from the marginalized. And don't get me wrong, the poor, weak, the marginalized can live within suburban homes, but even suburban homes are insulated from the rest of the world. Privacy fences, we have our own little sort of kingdoms and obviously poverty can look in many different ways. But one thing we see all throughout church history is, and it's why Paul got in so much trouble and the early churches, no slave, no free, no male, no female. There

was this reordering of society to look more like heaven on earth. And so what I'm discovering here is we're looking at our little plot of land and we, because of settled, which are kingdom minded people and dear friends, we actually have a pathway to see this land reordered to look a little bit more like heaven and how we're cutting through some of those divides, cutting through that insulation that can happen so often in the suburbs, insulating the wealthy from the poor and so forth, cutting through all of that to do life together. So, we're not just unleashing resources somewhere else, which is not a bad thing. We're actually saying let's build a really big table for everybody to come. And so, the timing of it was so beautiful. These prayers have been prayed for decades, settled, was really starting to blossom out of 10 years of research. Right as I was moving here,

one of our staff members was already planning on to be an intentional neighbor. One of the co-founders of Settle was a part of our church. And so, it became this like, so God, are you leading us to do this or not? Like it became pretty, pretty obvious. And I will tell you, it's a really beautiful journey that I hope will, I hope it'll lead our church family deeper into who we are as practitioners in the way of Jesus, as lovers of Jesus. Green Chef is the number one meal kit for clean eating. They deliver pre-portioned and prepped quality foods with limited processed ingredients.

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the gospel necessity of living in proximity to the poor, not just helping the poor, but living in proximity to, which the suburban life, and I live in, I don't know if I'm right, do I live in suburbs? It's more like, I'm out of Idaho. So it's like horses and country. And you'll have a decent house sitting next to a guy with like 85 broken down cars in his front yard. But he's on five acres. Like, I don't know. Are you the poor or just an annoying neighbor? But the suburban life is so addictive and yet so suffocating to our faith. And I feel it every single day in many Christian zoos. How did your church get to where it's at?

Massive property, beautiful building, comfortable suburbs, and you said, but the DNA of the church, beautiful building, comfortable suburbs. And you said, but the DNA of the church, I mean, you just phrased, but I mean, your church is filled with missional hearts. They want to engage the Kingdom of God. They don't want to just sit in comfort. How did they get there? I mean, you've only been there four years, but I'm sure you've nurtured something that was already there. But how did they get there and how do you continue to nurture that? Yeah. Yeah. No, I would say the root system of our church, I'm still discovering, right? But there is a deep root system here. The church is 75, probably almost 80 years old now. So this is prior to the... Again, the suburb is only 20 plus years old, right? The suburban

church. Okay. But it has urban roots. Yeah. Urbanish roots. Yeah, definitely more so than we're a third ring suburb here. Yeah, and it's funny, I love hearing stories about certain points in history. But Dave Johnson, who pastored for 38 years here, and not just Dave, there was a whole sort of ecosystem that was rooting itself and in some seasons, recovery ministry and spiritual formation, really rooted in spiritual formation. I know Dallas Willard has, you know, many years ago would come, had been opened door multiple times and had a huge influence here. Yeah, right.

Oh, okay. And so, there's this root system that I would just say it's by the grace of God that it still has that heartbeat after, I think they had two years without a pastor, COVID hit, so much was happening here and yet there was something that was preserved in the heart of the church. They've had a really beautiful grace message, brokenness is welcome here that they didn't just preach, but really lived into for decades. This has been a place where lots of pastors over the years have found healing. I hear stories constantly of like their Saturday night service would be a service that a lot

of pastors would come to back in the day. And so, I'm still getting to know the story even a few years in, and it's been one of the most profound experiences in my life. How do you not just want to just fall into the comfort, if I can say it like that, the comfort of pastoring just a traditional suburban church? You have every opportunity at your fingertips to do that. I guess part of it might be the people might not want that. But yeah, I mean, how do you... Is that a temptation? I think that was one of my... It's not a temptation. It would be more... To me, it feels more uncomfortable.

I was very hesitant to move to a suburban church, actually. And I do think we probably were... Because of where the church was at, maybe there was an opportunity to choose a path, you know, with everything the church had been through over the past years. But yeah, so going back to my earlier years in ministry, we had a couple defining moments for us. When I say us, I mean, my wife and I, where we're like, maybe we're done with this church leadership thing. One of them was, I told you that the big shiny youth group that we were part of, and again, I say it tongue in cheek, but there was a lot of beauty there. But I started out at a small church as a youth pastor and associate pastor, and then I had the opportunity to come back and work with my leaders of that youth ministry

and of that church. And to my wife and I lead a discipleship training school, post high school gap year sort of situation. And coming into that situation, I think I was chasing a lot of ambition, frankly. I think there was some genuineness, but a lot of ambition. But we hit a point, we couldn't have children. And then we were told we couldn't have children by multiple doctors. God healed my wife, we got pregnant with twins. Shortly after we got pregnant with our third child. And we, I remember my boss at the time, one of the first things that came out of their

mouth was when I told them we were pregnant with our third is, I need your head in the game to me. I need your head in the game. To me, I need your head in the game. And it was that moment where I just sensed the Holy Spirit saying, you can choose your family now or you can choose this ministry. And it was at that crossroads where we left. And so, it began that discovery of not everything that's shiny is gold. Big is not always good, and it's not always healthy. And then we had another defining moment, the situation we walked into. I was a youth pastor for a number of years, and I'm not going to go into the details around it, but the church went through a very difficult situation, and I got kind

of sucked into the leadership vacuum, and it was so devastating from like on a soul level, I was leaving ministry. And Stephanie and I, or I got approached by a church to be an associate pastor and it was a larger church and I just, I was really hesitant, but I had such a cool conversation with a guy named Rick on the phone. Now he's a therapist, that's probably why I had such a cool conversation with him. He was an executive pastor at the time. And I had a moment that was, I was in the interview and I was doing a lot of cynicism. I was going to meet with about five people in a group interview. And I just had decided that if the opportunity presents itself, I'm going to confess my cynicism, my brokenness, my sin, my temptation, this

sense of if this can't be talked about, I don't want to be here anyway. It was one of those things and probably came from more of a broken place than a healthy place. And when I did that, the opportunity did present itself. The entire group of people started confessing and praying for each other. And so, it started a healing process in me, but I bring all that up because there has been a defining moments along the way that have been really hard that have brought me to the brink of whatever, hard-heartedness of cynicism of leaving ministry, which sometimes God calls us to do that, but it created a different value. Those difficulties

created a different value system in me. So now I find it harder to live in a just comfortable, let's put on great church services with the main goal of filling rooms. To me, if you have exterior goals, then you leave the interior vulnerable. But if you have interior goals, which I would say is the way of the kingdom, it's maturity in Christ, it's not attracting lots of people, then there's a holistic, beautiful way of doing ministry that doesn't carry the inherent pressure that we so often see. Yeah, yeah. Is there anything you guys do as a church that is maybe different than, maybe, again, for lack of a better term, just a traditional church? I mean, you have services on Sunday, you preach, you have worship. I mean, would it look like if someone just came and

visited for a couple of weeks, would it look like any other church? Or are there things you do that are different in the rhythm of church life? Yeah, it's interesting. When you ask that question, I always want to be careful because our goal isn't to be different either, right? There's so many beautiful expressions of God's kingdom out there. And I don't even mean, whenever I say church service, sometimes people could say that's a negative thing. And I don't mean it that way. I mean it in a very neutral way. A church service could be amazing, could be not good at all. So yeah, it's not a critique. It's yeah. But again, the DNA of the church is different, especially the DNA of a church that's in a comfortable suburban, you know, white upper middle class setting, and yet it has such

a vibrant missional kingdom focus. Like that is unique. I just want to know, like, are there external structures that need to be changed or can this type of DNA exist within? Just, yeah, we've got Bible studies, we have sermons, we have pastoral meetings and, you know, all the things any other church might have. Yeah, I'm just kidding. Yeah. Well, first I'll just say for me, it digs a little deep and then it works itself

out. So if we could dig a little deep for a moment, I think I had mentioned this to you, but I do believe predominantly, and this has been at least my experience in my little world, that my church experience has been we live by mechanical metaphors. I bet, Preston, you can't think of one thing you've interacted with today that hasn't been impacted by a machine, which is a really fascinating thing to do. And if that's the case, and again, I'm not even demonizing that, I'm really thankful for coffee makers and bean roasters and whatever. Even the air we breathe has been impacted by machines. And I just say that to go, there's an inherent pressure. And like, we use words like, if things are broken, they need to be fixed.

And there's a pressure in the word, fix. It puts it on me. In a mechanical mindset, it's all about outcomes. And the process gets in the way. So you want to make the process as short as possible. But one discovery has been so freeing for me. And I would say, this is what we have not arrived, and I would say this is what we have not arrived, and we will never arrive, but what's growing in our church family is more of a agricultural or a field mindset, which instead of asking the question, what's broken and how do we fix it, we ask the question, what needs to be nurtured? And that's such a fascinating question because it lifts the pressure. It's more

about surrender than control. It's less pressure on me to fall in love with a future version of the church and try to get the church there. I can really grow to love the church right where she's at. And we can see, oh, look what's growing over here. And how can we pick up a water can what's growing over here and how can we pick up a water can via strategies to come around that. I find myself, I've been in so many church situations where it's like, it's springtime all the time, let's manufacture springtime. And it took me a while to realize you can't manufacture seasons. And no matter how it looks on social media, it's not always springtime. And if we don't learn to live in the seasons that are in front of us, then we're going to be robbed of the beauty that winter can bring us.

So I bring all that up to say, in a mechanical mindset, people are a means to an end. And in an agricultural mindset, which is obvious, the only metaphors that live in scripture when it comes to the kingdom. I was going to say, I got like 15 passages that came to mind when you made the shift. Yeah. So for me, it's been like, oh yeah, the way we think industrial digital revolution did not exist in the first century. So the metaphors Jesus lived by were very different. Does that change? I mean, so switching the language, somebody could say like, well, that's just, you're just using a different metaphor for the same thing. But what is that? Yeah, how does that work itself out in ministry in a way that would be different than thinking

through ministry through a mechanical metaphor? One big thing that comes to mind is people are not a means to an end. So I think about our team that helps lead the church, they're not a means to an end. So, I think about our team that helps lead the church. They're not a means to an end. It's really hard to prove organizationally that we love you more than we love what you do. But one of the ways that we want to prove that is I think how people transition out is a telltale sign. Are we sending or are we severing? We want to resource and be as generous with people leaving is coming. I've been in situations where I've left and I've been sat down multiple times and told, Dave, promise

me you'll never hire anybody from one of my staffs or make sure you tell me first. That's the relational thing to do. And in my mind, I'm like, there is something about that that goes, people are a means to an end. The church is this ecosystem that I've created. And how people get treated in an environment like that can lead to short-term results that look really good, but long-term brokenness and devastation. And so, we say a lot is if somebody wants to approach somebody who works here, serves here about another ministry, do it. We are not gatekeepers. The kingdom of God is bigger than this. We want you to explore other things. We want to scatter seeds. We want to send, not sever. So that's one, I think, example that has been very meaningful for me.

Yeah. And then the holding loosely to outcomes like this sacred settlement, it's getting a lot of opposition from some people. And here's what's so cool. Not in the church though, right? Not in the church. No, not in the church. Just externally.

But here's what's cool. And we've talked about this as a church. At the end of the day, we're gonna be as faithful as we can with how God is leading us and the outcomes on God. If this is God, it's not on us. If it gets delayed, even if it gets stopped, that'll be a moment for me, for sure, of formation, but it is not on us. And so, we're gonna nurture nurture this work and what would it be like to do ministry where we truly let go of the outcomes? You mentioned political diversity. It's just, it's just been the back of my mind since you mentioned it 20 minutes ago. I'm sure lots of people in the audience are like, Oh, can

you, how do you handle that? So you have like all across the board, like, is it pretty split conservative, right? Right leaning, left leaning far, right, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the journey looking for a pastor. And in that journey, they did like church surveys and things like that. So, that body of work revealed that within the church, it's very politically diverse. And so, I think that's something that I'm

still discovering, especially because we're in a season where we're seeing, you know, new people entering into the community. It's just really fascinating trying to really understand what's happening in the life of church. So, we've experienced it on paper there, but even anecdotally, there are things that I can say and do as a pastor or we can, because it's not just me leading and serving. We can get feedback. I can say one thing and I can hear from somebody who saw it through a very conservative lens and then somebody has feedback about the same exact thing that saw it through a very progressive lens

and that's why I say it makes it shepherding a lot more difficult. It is way easier to create an echo chamber. It really is. So yeah, I don't know if that answers your question. I mean, it's one thing to have... Because I've been in churches where there's political diversity and there's a healthy, a really beautiful, healthy version of that. And then there's another really toxic divisive version. And I think it's when people have political diversity, but it's

simply their secondary leanings, you know? It's not their primary identity. If they can all be united around the gospel, then you could, I mean, honestly, yeah, you joke around about like, raise your hands, who'd you vote for? But can you imagine, can you imagine if you did that? And half the room said Trump, half the room said Kamala, and they looked at each other, shrugged their shoulders and said, all right, let's go serve Jesus. Like, it's when they looked at each other said, wait, you're a Nazi? What the heck? Like, you know, like, that's when their political leanings become allegiances. And that's when it's leanings become allegiances. And that's when it's divisive.

I mean, so your church, I mean, it sounds like the DNA is high justice, care for the poor, they're excited to have people move off the streets and onto their church property. Typically, in my experience, people that resonate with that tend to lean more left politically. But is that not the case where you're at? I mean, to get politically conservatives excited about justice is sometimes difficult. The evangelical church today, oddly enough. It is. Yeah, it is odd. Yeah, so kind of, this is how we talk about it openly at our church family. It's the kingdom of God values do not fit in earthly categories. So they do

not fit perfectly right or perfectly left. And so because of that, there will be, as we practice the way of Jesus together, there will be things that we do that might feel very conservative. Because what we're doing is we're trying to really hold to this third way that's way beyond earthly structures. I get really nervous, and we've talked about it as a church very openly, if all of our theology looks right or left, then potentially we are being shaped by the culture. And we're looking at scriptures through a cultural lens versus looking at culture through a scriptural lens.

And so, for example, like in January, I did realize, oh my gosh, you know, there could be a vision vacuuming, a vacuum growing around this justice thing because the word has been co-opted by the world when it's actually our heritage as followers of Jesus. Internal righteousness, external justice cannot be separated. It's the same word. And so, I'm finding, just leaning in it to it directly. Honestly, I feel in over my head in that. More than not, I do worry, probably too much, about the church family. At the same time, I do find talking openly about it and even telling people like you're sitting by people that think and vote

very differently than you. And honestly, this Sojourner exile identity has been something that we have been lifting up constantly for years, even long before I came here, that's been kind of in the DNA of the church. So it's a beautiful thing to feel like I'm jumping into a stream that's already flowing and not creating a new river. But one of my biggest fears, and I don't know if it's healthy one or not, is messing it up. There's beautiful deep waters here, and I don't want to dam that up. So, one of the most sacred friendships in light of that has been the pastor who's here for 38 years. I didn't know him before moving here. They weren't a part of the church. They stepped out to make room

for the new person. And they're back at the church and we've become dear friends. And that has been, I think, a really beautiful piece of the story. Wait, the pastor that was there for 38 years now just attends your church and that doesn't create a problem? People don't look to him as their true leader? Honestly, what's been so wild about it, and we've talked about it, it's been one of the, for both of us, it's been a really powerful expression of God's kingdom. The friendship has been one of the most effortless

friendships. It was like my first Pentecost Sunday here, he had been out of the pulpit for years at that point, but it was like, let's just talk together about the miracle of this. So we taught in scripture together, but we also talked about just the beauty and the miracle of the relationship. And really wanting to put it on display, like, because people have asked us, they don't anymore, is it really like that behind the scenes? And it really is. And I would just say, for him, it's been a display of character. He told me early on, he said, Dave, I have a lot of issues. I know what some of them are. But one thing I've always known is this isn't

mine. And it never was, never will be. And to me, it's creating a value system that I think is not fully intact, but it's growing for that season of my life to go. It never was mine. I'm an itinerant pastor, whether it's 20 years or five, it'll hopefully be more like 20, there is literally no ownership that I have. I am just serving. And he's modeling that in a powerful way for me. So, I mean, it sounds like you're, the fact that you guys have a very public friendship that probably models unity and neither of you sounds like you have much of an ego to like want this to be your thing and not his thing, you know. But yeah,

I've heard of other situations in churches where it's not so much the transfer of leadership that's doing anything wrong. It's just that people, the church just can't get over, you know. Sure. I am of Apollos, you know, I'm of Christ. That was always weird in 1 Corinthians. We're of Christ. Ah, alright. Jump card. I'm curious, if you sat down with a pastor in a comfortable suburban church, and again, I don't... Well, that can be negative, but I mean, you know, they're doing good things, they're preaching good sermons, there's discipleship happening, you know.

But it's just maybe not as kingdom shaking that he or she would want it to be. How do you take a church that maybe doesn't, that has the external that you guys have and the internal that reflects the external that you guys have and the internal that reflects the external, you know? What can a pastor do to, again, deepen their faith and expand their kind of kingdom horizons? Is it a matter of just preaching on it? Is it a slow cook? Or what? Yeah, I don't know. I actually have no clue how to do that. I've seen people try to do it, it blows up churches or yeah, other people, they just got kind of frustrated and ended up leaving and moving to the inner city or something.

Yeah. Again, I'm in such a learning journey, I hesitate to give advice, but I'll just name some, a few things that could potentially just widen the imagination around that. One is, could the difficult stories that you alluded to be because somebody has created an outcome in their mind and the church hasn't reached that outcome in the timeframe that they wanted to reach that outcome. That's why the metaphorical, going back to Jesus' metaphors really matter to me because you can't love a future version of anything. But one of the things I really do feel like it was a gift from God moving here was this deep invitation to grow to love Church of the Open Door for who she is now, not for what she can become. And then, you know, I

mean, I find myself drawn to writers that emphasize the slow work of the kingdom of God versus... E.G. Keaterson? Well, yeah, long obedience in the same direction, you know. And in his book, The Contemplative Pastor, he talks about busy set as a metaphor to pastor is like embezzler set next to banker or adulterer set next to, you know, and he talks with this provocative language, but I feel like it's jarring enough to set, potentially set somebody free from, again, into a different... The Kingdom of God, I feel like I'm learning, continuing

to learn. It is not just another earthly strategy. It is a completely different way of thinking. I don't think we can manage most of the outcomes we'll experience in the age to come. I think we think we can. I think a lot of forms of church movements have been born out of that. But so I would just, for me, what are small ways you can nurture that heart of justice in your church family? So pick up a watering can. You can't yell at a tree and make it grow faster than it will. So don't get ticked off at the tree, but you can nurture it and trust that 10 years down the road, it'll look different than it does now. Who can you bring in around it? I think about some of the difficult conversations we are in, in the Twin Cities around race and around politics and everything else. One

of the ways we want to nurture, not just telling people what to think, but teaching people how to think, is by embracing the Exiles and Babylon Conference. To us, that is nurturing in the heart of our church family that value system of how, instead of creating an echo chamber, how can we enter into difficult conversations as people of love and grace? And so, it's not a solution that will recreate the church family into the perfect balance of it all, but it is a way we're picking up the watering can and coming alongside that. And so, I think it's less of a strategy and I think it's more of a commitment to a long-term slow process that's not glorious externally. I think long-term it may be, but it's actually, it requires the fruits of the spirit and it nurtures it like patience. So,

is that too philosophical? No, no, no, that's great. That's good. I am curious. I know we're running out of time here, but yeah, what led to you guys wanting to host the Excellus Conference? Oh yeah. Okay. It is an acquired taste. It is an acquired day. Well, you came to the Denver one, so you got a piece of it, but yeah. I did. Yeah. So somebody, a part of our church family, her name's Brittany, she went to one

of the ones in Boise and she came back and said, this culturally feels very similar to how we hold space around topics and emphasize the kingdom and make space for different types of conversations. And even just the environment of worship felt very similar to her. And so, she heard, she brought up the idea and she's kind of a go-getter if you ever met her. And I was like, so, you know, so should we explore it? I'm like, yeah, let's explore. I'm all about that. Like, and if it doesn't happen, fine, it doesn't matter. It's just like, but it's not how the kingdom works, though, you just explore things, and eventually it could potentially lead to a kingdom relationship.

And, and so as we began to explore it, and sit down with your team, over calls, it began to feel more and more congruent. And so there's two sides of it for me. One is, uh, will it actually benefit the conference? Um, because it needs to. And then secondly, will it nurture, will it come alongside very specific things we want to nurture within our body here? And the answer to that is yes. And the opportunities presenting itself. And that's why. Well, it's been the, I mean, honestly, so many blessings the way your team has been involved, but I mean, you in particular, you know, one of the things we want to do with Exiles, especially

as we explore going to different cities, is every city has its own kind of things they're thinking through the, you know, the spirits on the move in unique ways in different cities. And we want to come and serve that city. Now, you know, Exiles is, it's not just a local thing. A lot of people fly in for it, but we want to have that kind of local slant. So it was just such a blessing being able to talk to you extensively and have you talk to other pastors like, Hey, we're thinking about talking about this. We're thinking about having this speaker. What about this? What about that? You know, and like just making sure we are coming in as guests to the Minneapolis area and serving that area, not coming in in a top down, here's what you guys need

to think through and stuff. So yeah, I didn't know. Nobody knows that really outside of a couple of people, you know, you, me, your team and my team team, and my team. But yeah, we worked very, very hard extensively forming this conference with intentionality. Yeah, it's funny. I'll get emails right now, like, hey, can I speak at Exiles? Or like, hey, let me suggest this person. I'm like, this has been long. We've been forming this many months ago.

I can't imagine actually still figuring it out two months before. No. Yeah, that's funny. But yeah, so I really appreciate that and all the pastors. I mean, you seem well connected in the city. I mean, you would always say, yeah, I talked to a dozen pastors in the day. Here's their thoughts on this idea of the speaker. Yeah, man, it's been a man. It's been a joy. Yeah,

to be a part of that. And, and truly, I do believe it's, it's such a gift, a kingdom gift to again, not just open door, but to the broader church. And so, and thanks for all you do in that creating space like this. Yeah, it's our, it's our pleasure, man. Yeah. Excited to partner with you. All right, man. Thanks so much for being on The Algerian. Really appreciate it. Looking forward to hanging out in April. Yeah, me too, brother. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network. Hi I'm Haven and as long as I can remember I have had different curiosities and thoughts and ideas that I like to explore, usually with a girlfriend over a matcha latte.

But then when I had kids, I just didn't have the same time that I did before for the one-on-ones that I crave. So I started Haven the Podcast. It's a safe space for curiosity and conversation. And we talk about everything from relationships to parenting to friendships to even your view of yourself. And we don't have answers or solutions,

but I think the power is actually in the questions. So I'd love for you to join me, Haven, the podcast. Hey, so I'm launching a new season on the podcast, The Doctor and the Nurse. World renowned brain coach, Dr. Daniel Lehmann joins me as a co-host as we dive deep into the mind and the brain of everything high performance. I've been fascinated for years as I've worked with top athletes, high powered CEOs, Hollywood actors, and all high performers in all types of different fields of how they break through pressure, ignite drive, how they overcome distractions, how

they put fear on the bench, how they tap into flow state and just dominate all these different areas of high performance. So on this season my good friend Dr. Daniel Lehmann will break down what is actually going on in the brain in these different areas and I will give actionable tools to be able to use and apply in your life. So buckle up, the doctor and the nurse on the David Nurse Show coming at ya.