Theology in the Raw - Surviving Abuse: Jennifer Greenberg

Episode Date: April 11, 2024

As the author of Not Forsaken: A Story of Life After Abuse and the recently released Defiant Joy: Find the Hope to Light Your Way, Even in Darkness, Jennifer Michelle Greenberg has risen to become one of the foremost voices against child abuse in the church. She writes for Christianity Today, The Gospel Coalition, and the Evangelical Council for Abuse Prevention. In this conversation, Jennifer tells her raw story of experiencing ongoing physical, emotional, and sexual abuse from her father and how she took steps toward healing. We also talk about how churches can do a better job at preventing abuse and addressing it when it happens. Get your copy of Jennifer's book: https://www.amazon.com/Defiant-Joy-Find-Light-Darkness/dp/0593445422 Get your copy of Exiles today! https://www.amazon.com/Exiles-Church-Shadow-Empire/dp/0830785787/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?crid=5GIFQGLGIL72&keywords=exiles+preston+sprinkle&qid=1705940897&sprefix=exiles%2Caps%2C183&sr=8-1 Support Theology in the Raw through Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theologyintheraw

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology and Rob. My guest today is Jennifer Greenberg, who is the author of Not Forsaken, A Story of Life After Abuse. And also her just recently released book is Defiant Joy, Find the Hope to Light Your Way Even in the Darkness. Jen has become one of the foremost voices against child abuse in the church. She also writes for Christianity Today, the Gospel Coalition, and the Evangelical Council for Abuse Prevention. I guess I should give a trigger warning. Jen shares her story, which is one of experience.

I mean, she's experienced a lot of abuse in her past, and she talks openly about that. And so, yeah, this is a very sobering and maddening story in many ways to hear what Jen went through and to hear her come out on the other side in a way where she has healed well from the trauma she experiences. It's just a really powerful story. And I'm so thankful for Jen's voice, both, I mean, in this podcast, as you'll hear, and also her voice in the church. So please welcome to the show for the first time, the one and only Jennifer Greenberg. Well, welcome, Jennifer, to the Theodora podcast. I'm very excited to have this conversation.

You just came out with a book, Defiant Joy, Find the Hope to Light Your Way Even in Darkness. And then your previous book, Not Forsaken, A Story of Life After Abuse. So, can you tell us a bit about who you are and why you cultivated such a passion to help address the problem of abuse in the church? Yeah, absolutely. Well, I grew up in the church, mainly in Orthodox Presbyterian, so OPC and PCA churches. So, Reformed, Calvinistic, tended to be very, like, I say this lovingly, very nerdy churches. Yeah. I like nerdy churches. Yeah, absolutely. And I love discussing theology in an academic context. I love digging into,

I don't speak the Greek and Hebrew, but I love digging into all that stuff. And anyway, so yeah, I'm a proud nerd. But yeah, so I grew up in a Presbyterian church and my dad taught Sunday school in some of our churches on occasion. And see, he read the Bible to us and prayed with us, but he was also very abusive. He was violent. He threatened to kill me if I ever told. He looked at porn and he would plant it on... We were a homeschool family, so he would plant it on the computer that I used to do my homework. So I'd go to write a book report or, you know, research something and, and I, there'll be porn. So it was a very confusing way to grow up because of that, you know, my whole concept, my whole perception of the Bible and the church was very twisted because for example, you know, why would God call himself? I used know, why would God call himself?

I used to wonder, why would God call himself our father when fathers are angry and predatorial and dangerous? And, you know, and so I didn't have a normal or healthy understanding of fatherhood or really masculinity in general, let alone the parent-child relationship. And so I grew up just kind of living in fear and very damaged by all of that. When I turned, I guess, I think I was about 15 or 16, I started getting excited thinking, I'm almost old enough to move out. This is going to be great. I went to a summer church camp here in Texas and ended up getting propositioned by a pastor at the church camp, you know, and thankfully I understood what he was doing when he started

talking to me and basically was able to cut that conversation short. And I actually told my parents about it. I told them what this pastor had said to me. And my mom was very upset. I'm not really sure. My dad was very difficult to read. He was very stoic a lot of the time. Sometimes I'll say it seemed like he had two emotions. He was either angry or depressed. It was very stoic a lot of the time. You know, sometimes I'll say it seemed

like he had two emotions. He was either angry or depressed. It was like one or the other. And so he ended up inviting this pastor over to our house for dinner. And they told me and, you know, the other kids to go upstairs and they talked to him in private. And then they brought me back down after, I don't know, like half an hour to an hour and basically said, everything's fine. This was all a big misunderstanding. And then they, they made me sing a song for the guy. It was just utterly bizarre. Yes.

Yeah. They were like, basically, it was, you know, it was almost understanding, you know, he talks to his daughters, his own daughters this way. He was just talking to you in a fatherly way. And I was like, no, that's not what I heard at all. And then they wanted me to, yeah, sing a song to him. So I picked out a hymn and I sang a hymn to him. And yeah, when those sorts of things happen,

scripture, worship become very intermeshed with abuse and with psychological abuse. And so, like I said, it's just extraordinarily confusing. It took me a long time really to even understand that I had been abused. By the grace of God, I met my husband, Jason, when I was 18. And we dated for three years. He was not a Christian at the time. He grew up, I guess, effectively agnostic. But about six months before we got married, he was saved.

He just grew into this incredible Christian man. And he was so unlike my father. Christian man. And he was so unlike my father. It was really culture shock for me because suddenly I was married to this guy. I was living with this man who didn't yell at me and he helped with chores and he wanted to know what I thought. He wanted my opinion on different things. And I wasn't used to that. And I remember at one point thinking that I must be a terrible wife because I walked in to the kitchen and Jason was washing dishes. And I just started crying because I thought that I was a failure as a wife. And the only time my dad had ever done dishes was when he was, well, he never did dishes, but he would throw them and break them, you know, as he's throwing a tantrum. There was just a huge, like I said, culture shock for me.

And that was when I started to realize, oh, this is what love is. This is what a healthy relationship feels like. And then I started to learn by contrast, how really evil my dad had been. And that was a very slow letdown. It wasn't something that happened all at once. I think it probably took me five years to a decade to fully comprehend how bad things had been. And even to this day, like sometimes I'll have memories of my childhood and I'll think, huh, that was, that was kind of weird. And so I'll go and ask Jason, I was like, Hey,

honey, this happened when I was six. Is that normal? And he's like, no, he's like, that's bizarre. That's not normal at all. And so it's been, I know we, we use the word, the term deconstruction is kind of loaded. So I guess I'll say it was an unlearning of a lot of very terrible thought patterns and lifestyle habits and beliefs, like I said, and so Not Forsaken is actually about my whole process of unlearning, you know, discovering what love really means, discovering what fatherhood really means, discovering what forgiveness really means. That was a huge one because so often, you know, I would tell pastors like, yeah, my dad sexually abused me or he threw an iron at my head. He threw a knife at me. He threw me down the stairs, you know, and the response would be, oh, well, have you forgiven

him? It's just really an odd, like it's kind of putting the cart before the horse because it's like, oh, are you safe? Has he repented of these things? Do the police know? You know, it's like, those are the questions we need to be asking when someone comes to us with such a shocking revelation. People would literally, sorry, people would literally, like, would you tell them that? That was what they would lead with. Yeah. Have you forgiven him? Can't you, you need to let go of your anger.

need to let go of your anger. Or my favorite, when I was, I expressed anger at my dad for abusing one of my sisters. And the response I got from a relative was, I seemed like a very angry person and they wanted to know, how is your prayer life? And I was like, what? It's like, my prayer life is great. What are you talking about? I'm praying that God would protect my siblings. What is the matter? I don't, I, that, I, I'm sorry. That, that's just like, what year is, I mean.

I know. It's like something that you'd expect in some remote prehistoric country. Like it's just, it's, it's so backwards. I really think that a lot of it is fear-based and this is some of what I talk about in Defiant Joy as well. It's like, why do we have these misconceptions where we want people who are, who are understandably profoundly hurt, you know, whether it be from abuse or grieving a lost, a loved one who they lost or struggling with depression, anxiety, PTSD, struggling with chronic pain. There are a lot of people who will, a lot of Christians who will very wrongly try to, you know, encourage them saying platitudes like, oh, well, the joy of the

Lord is your strength and you should, you know, have a positive attitude and, you know, encourage them saying platitudes like, oh, well, the joy of the Lord is your strength and you should, you know, have a positive attitude and, you know, think positive. And it's really a prosperity gospel creeping into Christian theology because they think that if you are happy, if you have a good prayer life and you faith up, you know, faith really hard, smile really hard, trust Jesus really hard, then somehow all of these good things are going to happen to you and your life is going to be overflowing with blessings and you're never going to encounter hardship. And I would just challenge those people. It's like, well, pick any character in the Bible, pick any person in the

Bible and tell me whether or not they were always happy, because there is not a one. They all suffered. The greatest believers in the Bible suffered profoundly. I mean, Jesus himself and not just on the cross, his entire life, like how he, people would spread rumors about him and call him a liar. You know, his own family questioned his sanity and called him, you know, called him crazy for saying that he was the Messiah when Mary knew firsthand from an angel that he was, you know, people called him demon possessed and a drunk. And, and so I took actually great comfort from that because I knew that I wasn't alone in being psychologically, spiritually abused in that way. You know, it wasn't, it wasn't alone in being psychologically, spiritually abused in that way.

You know, it wasn't, it wasn't just me who, like, for example, I've, I've had relatives and family friends, you know, question my mental stability and, you know, call me a liar and all sorts of different things. And it's like, well, you know what, this is, people said these things about Jesus as well. But I think a lot of it, like I was saying, I think a lot of it is fear-based because people want to feel like they're in control of their lives. They want to feel like if they check off all the boxes and act a certain way and follow all God's rules, their kids will be safe and they will never encounter hardship. And, you know, I wish life worked that way, but it doesn't. And so we've really lost, I think in the broader church, lost our, um, our grip on that theology of, of grief and, and how to, um, and where our joy is rooted, you know, is our joy really rooted in, um,

having a perfect family and, you know, always being, um, stably employed and being financially successful or is our joy rooted in something deeper and something and something greater in heaven? I mean, gosh, your story is, I mean, honestly, anger is my first response. If I can be honest that I feel when I hear that I've got a wife and three daughters and a son, just hearing more and more, just how prevalent stories like yours is, is just, it's, I want, yeah. Yeah. I wait, you know, have you forgiven him? That's not my first response. First response is, you know, where, where does he live? And so we can go and like, and I believe I'm a pacifist too. This is the one area where I'm like, I, I, I'm tempted to set that aside, my theology aside for a little bit because I, yeah, I'm just stunned.

I'm just stunned every time I hear stories like yours. Where is your dad still alive? Did he get arrested? Did you, I mean, or how? He hasn't been arrested. The police did kick him out of the house at one point. Did you, sorry, did you go to the police? I did.

Yes. Yes. Okay. And, you know, one of the things that I dealt with was just statute limitations issues. My family moved around a lot. And so depending on what state we were in, when certain crimes occurred, the statute of limitations has run out on a lot of stuff. So yeah, it's, you know, and then even if it has, and it's very difficult this long after the fact, it's like, well, this happened when I was three, you know, but how do we prove that without, you know, it's just my memory of, of something. How do we prove that? Can we prove that?

It's, it's complicated. Is the system kind of broken? I mean, that, that's, it's just crazy that somebody can kind of get away with that. I mean, it's, it's very broken. I think a lot of it is that the system is overburdened. There are so many cases, for example, I, um, you know, I worked in, uh, I advocated in one case and it took over a year for the district attorney to even review the case to decide whether or not they were going to prosecute,

you know, and of course, you know, in a year's time, it's like, depending on where the victim is or, you know, both physically and psychologically, it's like, they want to move on with their lives. You know, they want this to be behind them. And so waiting a year and then saying, yeah, in another year, we might be able to have a trial. And then we can drag you through all of this again. And then we might get a conviction and then he'll be out in six months. So it's like, it's, it's very broken. It's very sad. Can you talk, talk to me about what was going on in your mind and heart when you got the courage to first go and report him? That must have been a fright, frightful thing to do, right?

must have been a fright frightful thing to do right and it yes it was horrible and it was well okay so i don't talk about this much but my whole like from the age of probably about 10 until i was about 30 32 ish i had recurring nightmares of my dad murdering me. And so I was very, very scared of him, like on a profoundly deep level. And so there was the fear element, but also I loved my dad. I know that sounds hard to imagine, but reporting him to the police was, it was like cutting off my right arm. You know, it was just, it was very, very hard. And it's not something that I would wish on anyone. I encourage all victims of abuse to do so because you deserve justice. You deserve to be safe.

But also what I learned was it creates a paper trail. to be safe. But also what I learned was it creates a paper trail. So for example, even if the statute of limitations is up on something my dad did to me, for example, he beat me up when I was 11, the statute is up on that. But when I reported it, because the police now know that that happened, if, and when he does something similar, they've got a paper trail. They've got evidence saying, okay, this is not a new thing with this guy. There's a history here, but also, you know, and this might sound silly, but I feel like it protects the police because I want cops to know if they get a 911 call from my family home to be ready for what they could be walking into. Because those domestic

violence calls are extremely dangerous for police officers. And that was always one of my fears, is that things would just explode. But yeah, so I reported him and I reported him multiple times, actually, based on what I remembered. How old were you when you first reported? multiple times actually based on what I remembered. How old were you when you first reported? When I first, I was probably 21, 22. I actually tried to report him. And this is another example of the system being very broken. I had called this domestic violence victim, like whatever number it was for the police at the time for domestic violence victims. And I talked to this lady who was supposedly a victim's advocate. And she was like, Oh, no, sweetie, if you're too scared, you don't have to report right now. If this is too hard for you,

you don't need to report. It's okay. And she told me that the statute of limitations would never run out. That in fact, was not true. I also was under the impression, the false impression that by telling her I had reported something that it would be somehow recorded. And that was not the case. It was not a police report, even though she was at the police department. So, but that was the first time. And then after that, it was just a series of working up the courage to report one more thing. You know, there were instances that I either didn't remember or didn't understand until later. Abuse is, trauma is such a weird thing. So, you know, especially when it happens to you when you're a child with sexual abuse. you're a child with sexual abuse. So as a child, you know, something sexual can happen and they don't understand it. And therefore it doesn't even register. Like maybe they feel uncomfortable and awkward and kind of scared, but they don't have any category for that. So your brain just

kind of files it away in the back of your memory. And then when you're older, like say 25 or 30, you might see something on TV or experience something in, you know, in your personal life. Or like in my case, my kids, whenever they hit a new milestone that was around the same age I was when something bad happened, it would bring it all back up. And so, you know, when my, when my daughter turned 11, it was, it was really hard realizing to a new depth, how wrong it was that my dad beat me up at that age, because I can look at my daughter who's 11. And I can think if anybody ever did that to her, I would probably kill them. Like, I just, I can't fathom it. And yet it happened. And my mom saw it happen and nobody did anything.

And so it's like there's a cycle of betrayal that just happens over and over and over again. And it makes it very hard to let go of things because as you mature, as you learn, as you grow, as you experience life, you come to deeper and deeper understanding of how bad things were. I was going to ask you, where was your mom in all this? You just mentioned her right now. Yeah, she witnessed some of it. She was aware of some of it, not all of it. I think she was very afraid of what would happen if our church found out.

And I haven't really talked to her much about this because it's very complicated, obviously, but I don't know that she trusted them to handle it well either. So, you know, she came from a very highly dysfunctional childhood herself. It was actually worse than mine. I don't know how much of it, like she, she was aware, but I don't know how much she really understood. I'm going to, so I'm going to, in these cases, oftentimes you have a narcissistic domineering man, typically a kind of a passive wife that kind of tries to defend him or try to like, almost like create scenarios. Maybe like it's not that bad, turns a defend him or try to like almost like create scenarios.

Maybe like it's not that bad. It turns a blind eye or chooses to ignore it or something. And I think it's really relationally complicated. Yeah. Yeah. And I think too, that she believed, and this is one of the theological misconceptions I really struggled to

unravel. She believed that it was her responsibility to soften my dad's heart. You know, I think she took that verse or maybe she was taught that verse where Paul talks about, you know, if you have an unbelieving husband, you know, live with him humbly or meekly or however he puts it. And, you know, then maybe God will use that to change him. And I remember at one point, you know, asking her, you know, why does dad act like this? You know, and why does he seem to pick on me? And she said something to the effect of, you know, if you're a really good daughter, maybe he'll see Jesus in you

and he'll change. I think she genuinely thought that, that pressure to fix people, to save someone to, for lack of a better word, minister to them, to mistakenly think that overlooking sin is a ministry tactic. It's very, very damaging. Gosh, I'm so sorry. You're still a Christian and you still go to church. You're able to Christian and you still go to church. You're able to talk about this. And I know you teared up, which I can't imagine not. But you also, I mean, if people aren't watching, you seem to have, well, you wrote a book on joy. Yeah. How do you go from your background to writing a book on joy?

How did you get to where you are now? Yeah. Just emotionally. I will not lie. It's been a journey. It's been a lot of hard work, but most of all, it's just been the grace of God. God blessed me with a wonderful husband. You know, we got married when I was 21.

I had no idea what I was doing. No idea like what a good husband even was. And yet God, God brought us together we've uh we've bounced around to different churches trying to figure out where we feel safe and where we fit in and and who can handle you know our needs best because let's face it we've we've got needs I've got a very complicated family background and and I need um pastor and church leaders who understand that and who know how to handle that. I've even had family members call my pastors and try to convince my pastors that I'm a liar and all this crazy stuff. Seriously. Wow. Oh yeah. Yeah. It's been an adventure. You know,

I have a Jerry Springer family. That's what I tell people. It's like, just FYI, I have a Jerry Springer family. So if anything weird happens, let me know. There were years when I couldn't read the Bible because the Bible basically felt like a big book of promises that were not for me. My biggest fear was that somehow I was such a hypocrite that I'd even fooled myself into thinking that I was saved, that God didn't really love me. And that even though I loved God, somehow I wasn't one of His elect or one of His chosen people, one of His adopted. It took a long time to really learn to rest in my faith, to rest in God. And I came to learn, and I do talk about this in Defiant Joy. There's something that I call the down and up. It's when you go through a hard time and God pulls you up.

So we see this pattern, for example, in the Psalms, you know, David will talk about being deep in a mire or in a pit or in the valley of the shadow of death. And then God raises him up and puts him high upon a rock. You see the same pattern when Peter is walking on the water, he begins to sink into the dark and churning waves, but Jesus reaches down and he pulls him up. And so I learned that there's this pattern in my life as well. I could go down into the darkness of depression, but God would pull me up. I could experience PTSD or postpartum depression. Or I remember one time when I had my second daughter, I experienced a severe injury during labor. I went through various down times in my life, but then God faithfully

pulled me up. And so it was this pattern of behavior. And because of that, I was able to learn that God was always going to be there on the other side, that He wasn't far away, that I wasn't abandoned, that He was actually walking through that valley of the shadow of death with me. And learning that allowed me to cling to Him through many dark things. And I'm not going to say that it was my own faith. I had very flimsy faith, I think, in my own way. I think if it had been up to me, I would have lost my faith about a thousand times. And I would have committed suicide about three times. But God is faithful. And literally what that means is He is full of faith.

He is faithful. And so He gives us faith. And so the reason that I was able to maintain my faith was because God maintained it. Wow. Golly. Did you ever wrestle with like the problem of evil? Like you go back to your past and in times when you're enduring what you had to endure and thinking like, where is God in that moment?

Because I know I can only imagine. I mean, that's why so many people were survivors. I mean, they lose their faith. It's like, where was God in this moment? How can I sing about the goodness of God? God, you're good. You're so good. You're always there.

You always deliver. Some of these songs we sing in church, I sometimes wonder. always there. You always deliver. Some of these songs we sing in church, I sometimes wonder. I look around the church and look at statistically 20 to 25% of the women alone have been a victim of unwanted sexual advancements or behavior abuse, possibly rape. And they're singing. And sometimes I look around, people aren't really singing. I wonder why they're not singing. That would be super hard for me if I was in that situation. Did you wrestle with? I did. I did. Um, oh yeah. I wrestled. Do you still wrestle? I mean, not so much. And I'm a little scared to say that though out loud. Cause I probably jinxed myself. But, um, what I came to realize, and this might sound silly, but I'm a big fan of murder mysteries.

I like Agatha Christie and Dorothy Sayers and Peter Ellis. And Peter Ellis has this series called the Brother Cadphail series. And it's about this monk. Oh, I forget what year he's supposed to live. It's a long time ago. Like, you know, it's back in like the Middle Ages. And but he solves supposed to live. It's a long time ago. It's back in the Middle Ages. But he solves mysteries. And one of the mysteries that he's investigating is the rape and the murder of a young nun. And a young woman who loved this nun asked him, where was God? Where was God when she was violated and murdered? And he says he was taking note of all

and making a place for her in heaven. I love that God can work through books. It's not even supposed to be a religious book, but just hearing those words, it clicked to me. And I was like, yes, God is my witness. And God keeps a record of all the wrongs done against me. And there are, I'm sure, sins against me that I don't even remember. Either I was too young to understand or recall, or maybe I didn't even know. Maybe it was, you know, evil thoughts that my dad had. I don't know. But God is aware of all those things. And, you know, we sometimes ask, why does God let bad things happen?

And I don't think that he does. I think that he is withholding his judgment for a time, but Jesus will return and he will judge evil. And, you know, when you think about it, every human being on earth, right? We live what generally speaking, maybe 70, 80, max 100 years around there. And so, you know, people have the free will. And so, you know, people have the free will. They have a choice, a chance to choose God or to choose evil. And, you know, unfortunately, so far, my dad has chosen evil, but God has not forgotten the wrongs done against me.

So one thing that really helps me cling to hope, especially, you know, when we talk about how broken our court system is and how fleeting justice is in this world. You know, I might never see justice in this world. In fact, I almost certainly will not see justice in this world, but I will see justice in the next. And, you know, every wrong done against me will be avenged. And the story actually of Tamar, David's daughter, is a great example of this. You know, Tamar was raped by Amnon. She goes and tells Absalom, but what does he say? He says, oh, keep all this quiet.

You know, don't worry about this. You know, you can live in my house. But he doesn't tell anybody. He doesn't get her justice. You know, and David finds out about this. You know, you can live in my house, but he doesn't tell anybody. He doesn't get her justice, you know, and David finds out about it. And again, he doesn't get her justice. But God bore witness. He was Tamar's witness. And now thousands of years later, you and I can still read God's testimony against Amnon and against Absalom and even against David because what they did was wrong.

And so God shows up for Tamar and he says, yes, these are the sins that were committed against her. And I have full faith that he will do that in heaven for me as well. That's good. Do you talk to your dad at all? Do you have any contact or? No, no, we went no well. That's good. Do you talk to your dad at all? Do you have any contact? No, no, we, we went no contact. Let's see. It was almost a decade ago. Well, longer than that. He used to, it was, it was hard. So initially, like after I got married, I tried to maintain

a relationship with him. I really wanted to believe that he was sorry and that he could change. And I was kind of hoping that, you know, since I wasn't living in the house with him, that it would kind of give us some level of, it would give me some boundaries, you know, to be able to control, like, I don't know, his access to me. And to an extent it did, but things just got more complicated. Like at one point, I guess this is something someone told me from our previous church. I was told that my dad allegedly got onto my computer, I guess, when I wasn't around. He was visiting us. He was visiting us and he got onto my computer and went through my personal files and actually sent some people at our church, some personal files that I had saved. I think it was like a diary entry I was keeping. And I'm not sure what he was trying to prove by that. I'm not even sure what the file was, but basically my pastor took me aside and said,

Hey, you need to not let your dad in your house anymore. He's, he's compromising your, your privacy. He's going behind your back. And he used to send me, um, kind of creepy, really, uh, birthday cards and stuff like that. And he would, he'd send me a card and there'd be no return address on the envelope. So I couldn't tell where he was, but you know, my address obviously is on there. And the card would say something about, you know, some Bible verse about forgiveness. And it was just like, really, this is how you're going to go about this. This is how you're going to go about this.

So, yeah. And there's been just kind of weird blips like over time, like at some point, and I'm not even sure what all was going on, but somebody kept adding my home address to one of those online internet directories, like a white pages type of thing. this online internet directory. It's like a white pages type of thing. And they were adding, and I kept deleting it and contacting this, the site saying, look, I have stalkers. I have abuse in my background. You cannot put my home address up here. And they deleted again. And then I noticed like this happened like three or four times. Finally, I noticed that there was this, this phone number attached to my address that I didn't recognize. And I did a reverse search on the phone number, and it turned out it was my dad's phone number.

And I was just like, what? So then I reported that to the police. This is another example of me reporting various things to the police. I reported that and the police told me that it was possibly my dad's weird, passive aggressive way of letting me know that he knows where I live. Yeah. And so the detective actually called him and he was like, Hey, so, you know, did you, you know, he asked him, I was like, have you abused Jennifer? And I guess my dad said no. And, um, he was like, you know, do you, does she still talk to you? And he was like, no. It's like, do any of your daughters still talk to you? He's like, no, not really. And he was like, I think there could be a pattern there. It seems, you

know, yeah, it's just, I don't know, just an ongoing thing. But did he ever, did, did he like verbally apologize to you ever? Or is that like a, was that a pattern? You know, he, he did. Um, he would do this weird thing though, where he would apologize, but then like a couple of weeks or months later, he would act like I was crazy. Like those things had never happened. Oh wow. Yeah. And so I started to realize that his apologies were actually part of the abuse because he was just basically lying to me or telling me what he thought I wanted to hear so that he could suck me back in. Yeah. So yeah. At that point, it's a narcissistic thing, right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's just very,

It's a narcissistic thing, right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's just very, it's very manipulative and dishonest. And, you know, when you're, when you have the capacity to apologize to someone, not because you actually care about them, but because it will give you control of them or make them in some way indebted to you, Just like really messed up and kind of a sociopathic way to look at other people. It's like completely lacks empathy and sympathy.

What's your advice to, there's two different directions I want to go. Like church, the church direction, and then just individual direction. Let's start with the church. What does a church need to do to be better? Help foster a better environment so that people don't abuse. And if and when it does happen, it's addressed and not just swept under the rug or ignored. What's your advice to churches? swept under the rug or ignored or like, yeah, what's your advice to churches?

I think that the church, generally speaking, has a very shallow understanding of sin and how sin works. You know, there are, there are smaller sins and then there are bigger sins. There's, you know, like, I don't know, just for example, you know, you or I, we might tell a white lie or, you know, I don't know, lose our temper once in a while or, you know, you or I, we might tell a white lie or, you know, I don't know, lose our temper once in a while or, you know, something like that. An abuser is someone who has a deeply rooted pattern of sin. So by definition, abuse is unrepentant sin because you can't just wake up one morning and rape a child or beat your wife. Like that doesn't happen. You gradually build to that level of sin. And so by the time someone has become an abuser,

you have to recognize that this is something that they've achieved over the course of years, possibly decades. It's kind of like how, what do you call it? You know, like how someone who takes drugs or is drinking alcohol, they can build up a higher and higher resistance. Sin is the same way. You know, you can sin a little bit and you build up a higher resistance. You numb your soul to it. And actually, this is kind of a silly example, but J.K. Rowling in the Harry Potter series, she talks about murder being something that tears your soul into pieces. And that is very accurate.

Abuse is the same way. It is a self-destructive sin. very accurate. Abuse is the same way. It is a self-destructive sin. The more abuse you commit, the more damage you do to your heart, to yourself psychologically. And the more evil you commit, the more evil you're then capable of. So a man who was capable of hitting his child 10 years ago, could be capable of killing his entire family a decade later. These sins grow. And that I think is something that needs to be very much understood because we are a people as Christians who believe in repentance. And so when you encounter abuse in your church, you need to automatically think, boom, that person is not repentant. They are living in unrepentant sin and you need to deal with it accordingly.

And of course, if there's, you know, child abuse that has to be reported to law enforcement, I would go a step further and say if there's any kind of domestic violence that needs to be reported just on a moral principle. I think, too, that, yeah, we need to be much more aware of what sin is and these different levels of sin. I think we've reached kind of a milquetoast sin-leveled perception of abuse. most sin leveled perception of abuse. Like for example, I heard a pastor say something like, you know, that a husband slapped his wife or something like that. And it's like, well, you know, hopefully he won't do that again. It's like, do that again. Like the fact that he did it means that other things have built up to this moment. Like the repetition is already there. It's already occurring. He's already in unrepentant sin. So just realizing that abuse is a symptom of a much, much bigger problem on a spiritual level.

That's a great point. Do you think it's good to be talking about this from the stage much more? Yeah. I mean, the Bible does, you know, you think about, um, yeah. Like somebody was asking me, it's like, well, I, you know, I don't know if, um, we can talk about domestic violence in the church. And I was like, well, Joseph's brothers beat him up and threw him in a hole. That's domestic violence. Then they sold him to slavers. That's human trafficking. Then Potiphar's wife, you know wife tore his clothes off and tried to seduce him. That's sexual assault. So like right there.

And you've got a male victim too, which thank God for putting that in the Bible. Again, bearing witness for victims because it is so hard for male victims in particular to speak about these things because our society, our culture, um, teaches that, oh, well, men are supposed to be strong and macho. And if you're strong and macho, then obviously bad things will never happen to you. It's like, well, how does that make sense? You know, just it's, it's not logical, but, but that's what we're taught. Is it something like, say from the pulpit, I mean, I don't know if you've been in a bit of a preaching series

or even just not, would it be good to say, hey, we know some of you are being abused right now or maybe you've been a victim of abuse in the past and maybe you need therapy or counseling or maybe you need to heal. There's probably a lot of just open wounds from the 20 to 25% of women. And I forget whether it is for guys, 10 to 12% have been abused or something. I mean, that's a lot. That's a good chunk of the people out there. It's a lot. Yeah. And when you talk about child abuse in general, like not necessarily sexual, child abuse in general, like not necessarily sexual, but just child abuse. Um, it's about 50,

50, um, between boys and girls. Yeah. So it's really, really bad, you know, and, and a lot of times I, so, so one thing I will recommend is, um, having a safety policy in place in your church that just outlines, okay, when we have a report of abuse, whether that be sexual abuse or domestic violence or child abuse or what have you, these are the steps we're going to take. And, you know, go ahead and, you know, every year or so have some kind of a meeting or a refresher course to go over, not just with your staff, but with your whole congregation. This is what we do. This is our response. Because what that's going to tell victims and also survivors is that you're a safe place. You are someone, you are a church who they can go to and talk to, and you know what to do with their situation. But the other thing that it does,

and I love this, is abusers are going to see that and they're going to avoid your church because they're going to say, you know what? This is a church where if I pull anything in the kids ministry or the youth group or whatever, they will call the police on me. So I'm going to go somewhere else. You want that. So having that in place, I think is really, really important. I serve on the advisory board of a group called ECAP, which is the Evangelical Council of Abuse Prevention. One of the things that I like about them is that they're non-denominational. So you have this objective outside organization, making sure that the church is following the law for starts, but also just putting in place wise Christian biblical principles to protect kids and to know what to do when you do get a report.

Because it does, it changes state by state. And one of the things that I've been very concerned with in a lot of denominations is that they try to in-house things. And one of the issues that I really ran up against in PCA, OPC circles, everybody knows everybody. And so for example, when I would tell a pastor, Hey, this guy over there, over here, you know, he's, he's hitting his kids, you know, can someone in your state, in your Presbytery, please report him and be like, Oh, this has to be a misunderstanding. I went to seminary with that guy. He's a really nice guy. I just don't, I can't believe that. And it's like, oh my gosh. So we need people who are objective, who aren't buddies with the perpetrators,

who aren't biased by information, because let's face it, we're human beings, and I am not immune to this. I many times, you know, I've gotten to know somebody and then found out that they were doing something, maybe not abuse, but they're deceptive or they're manipulative or they're a gossip or a liar or something like that. And it's like, wow, you know, I never picked up on that. If someone had asked me my opinion of that person, I would have given them five stars. So we as people, we need to understand our limitations. We need to understand that when we care about someone, we not only want what's best for

them, but we think what's best of them. Our perception is not necessarily accurate and it's certainly not impervious to failure. So one of the things that I really encourage is just having that objective outside counsel, not someone, you know, obviously you need people on your church staff who are immediately responsible for handling situations where there's a report. But beyond that, you also need people who are objective, backing them up, who aren't part of the community, you know, who aren't part of the friend circle, who can hold people accountable and step in if things start sliding sideways. That's good. That's really important. Yeah. I talked to somebody a while back in this,

in this kind of an expert in this area. I'm'm blinking on who it was, but they, you know, a lot of people think, you know, this is widespread out there and it also happens in the church. And this person, I think it was a female said, it's actually, the church can be a breeding ground for it. Not, not on purpose, but because the church oftentimes thinks the best of people, it can be a little naive and you have access to kids. You have in a lot of churches, unfortunately, you have some misogyny or you have already kind of male domination. And so it actually can be people who are kind of are attracted, like perpetrators, abusers can be attracted to the church because they can get away with more than in other places. abusers can be attracted to the church because they can get away with more than in other places. So all the, and I love what you said, like part of my thinking is, let's just, if this is going on and the church can be a breeding ground, let's just shake it up to where, to where people know

they're kind of scared. Like, oh no, if I, if I do something, it will be called out. Or, you know, if the women in church or all people, if they're a victim of abuse, they're encouraged to tell somebody, talk about it. You can come here, you can go there. Well, here, their staff, you know, if the women in church or all people, if they're a victim of abuse, they're encouraged to tell somebody, talk about it. You can come here. You can go there. Well, their staff, you know, staff would love to talk to you and we'll help you get the help you need. And if that's just in the air, right, it seems like it would. Unfortunately, like you said, they'll leave the church and they'll just go to another church where that's not happening. And that's.

It can't. That can't happen. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, what do you do And that's, it can't, that can't happen. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, what do you do? I mean, you can't, what's the option to not talk about it. So they stay there. Like that's not so. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And you know, it's kind of one of those, um, it's kind of a catch 22 and like I've had, um, I've actually had pastors and church leaders ask me this. It's like, well, you know, I know that if I know that a woman is being beaten by her husband or her boyfriend or whatever, what if I call the police on, on this guy and the guy beats her up? And my response to that is basically, well, he's already beating her up. Like he's going

to beat her up. If there's bad traffic coming home, he's going to beat her up. If she burns dinner, he's going to beat her up. If it's Monday, you know, you know i mean it's like sure you could call the police and then the guy could use that as an excuse to beat her up but this is on him like you do the right thing you do the responsible thing this is your lane and if he chooses to be evil you know that's what he's doing already so you know you know, on the bright side, what I think usually happens, it certainly happened, I think, in my situation, when an abuser knows that they're being watched, that the police are aware, that church leaders are keeping an eye on things, if he's got half a brain, he's actually going to be careful not to do anything really profoundly stupid, you know, because he knows these people have their eye on him. So it's, it's always safer. I had a really terrifying situation where an abuse victim who I, I love very much victim who I, I love very much had told me that, um, that she had been raped. She wouldn't tell me who, um, when it happened, where anything. So I had nothing to report. It was basically like,

okay, this terrible thing happened. And, you know, so I was basically like, I'm going to be your friend. I'm going to love you through this. And, you know, whenever you're ready to talk to the police, let's go. Cause there's no statute of limitations in Texas on rape. Um, but sooner, the better at the same time. And, uh, years went by and she never brought it up again. She seemed okay. Um, and then out of the blue, she posted about it on Facebook and not only did she post about it, but she actually tagged the guy. And this was prior to reporting it to the police. So I look up the guy's address and it turns out he lives like two miles from her house. Like he could literally walk over to her house and beat her up or kill her because she's just tagged him in this thing on Facebook.

up or kill her because she's just tagged him in this thing on Facebook. And I was terrified. And I, you know, I called her and I was like, sweetie, you need to report this now. You need to report this right now because he could retaliate and you need the police to be protecting you. You need the police aware of what's going on. You might need to move. Like I'm like, I'm thinking worst case scenarios, you know, she point blank refused. She would not. She said the police can't help me. It's been too long. There's no DNA for a rape kit anymore. And she said that she was actually hoping that he showed up at her house and attacked her so that she could then prove that he was an abuser. And I was like, I mean, this was like my worst nightmare. I was like, okay, you're not thinking straight. This is horrible. Like I ended up calling the police and I ended up reporting it.

And they talked to her, they helped her. She was very, very angry at me for doing that. But, you know, at that point, I was just like, well, at least she's alive to be angry. You know, these situations are like complex, does not do it justice. Like you cannot sum up how complicated some of these situations are. because you wrap in family situations, relatives, and then trauma and PTSD make people do all sorts of weird things. I know firsthand. Having that policy in place is part of the reason that it's so helpful is because you don't have to second guess anything. It's like, nope, helpful is because you don't have to second guess anything. It's like, nope, this is abuse and boom, this is what we do. Because otherwise it's very easy to get drowned and overwhelmed in the complexity of those situations. That's helpful. Have you found the adage to be true that kind of hurt people, hurt people, meaning like most people who are abusers have themselves been a bit abused? You know, it's funny. It's like, I actually, yeah. Well, part of me hates that phrase because as a hurt person, I would never hurt someone else, you know? So it's like, well, no hurt people don't

hurt people actually, because I'm hurt. I am more protective of kids. You know, I would jump in front of a bullet for one of my kids. But at the same time, I do think that most abusers probably have some kind of trauma in their background. But instead of, I don't know, it feels arrogant to use myself as an example, but like I've used my past to try to help others, to try to become a better person, to try to honor God with my life. They're bad experiences, yes, but I'm not a bad person in that sense. And so I try to use these experiences for good. There are other people who they use their trauma as almost like fuel to justify harming others. And I would say that a lot of abusers are that way, but I also think that there are a lot of abusers who had perfectly fine childhoods. I can't go back in time and witness my dad's childhood, but from what he always told me,

But from what he always told me, he had a nice family. He grew up in the church. He had siblings who all seem very normal and happy. And they're all faithful Christians with beautiful families and happy marriages. And for whatever reason, he's not like that. So as far as I'm aware, he was never abused. but I have no idea really. Maybe it's the case. Yeah. Maybe there definitely needs to be some new, even if there is some truth to that statement, it's not that, uh, people who have been victims will in turn become a perpetrator, but people who are perpetrators oftentimes have some trauma in their past.

And that's, it sounds the same thing, but it's not, you know. Yeah. It's a nuance that is important. And it also, I think that it's a mistake to sympathize with an abuser because you think, oh, this person must be very hurt inside think, oh, this person must be very hurt inside because it, well, it's just extremely dangerous. And, you know, I can tell you firsthand that because I went through what I went through, I would never put anyone, not even my worst enemy through what I went through, because I know what it feels like to be abused. And therefore I would never abuse anyone. So for someone to say, oh, well, I was abused and therefore this justifies my behavior. It's like, uh, no. Yeah. Yeah. Totally.

It just like, it's actually makes it worse because you know, you know what it's like and let you, yet you made someone else feel that way. Jen, thank you so much for your honesty, your transparency, your wisdom, your, your book, Defiant Joy, who, who listening is this book for? Who needs to read this book? Well, this is for really anyone who struggles to find joy in their lives. You know, you don't necessarily have to be an abuse survivor, but you know, if you've well had hardship in your life, that's 99.9% of all people on planet earth. Um, uh, I think you'll relate with this book because it's about, you know, when you're

in the Valley, how do we cling to joy? And in a nutshell, what I would say that my conclusion has been is, you know, even when Jesus was on the cross, it says, for the joy set before him, he endured. That is not to say that while Jesus was nailed to the cross, he felt any form of joy. In fact, he said, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? He was heartbroken. He was despondent and sad and in agony, but for the joy set before him. So basically what that means for us is that no matter what we're going through in this life, for the joy set before us in heaven, in this life for the joy set before us in heaven, we can endure. One of the analogies I make in the book is, you know, it's like if you're a weary traveler, you know, you can go that extra mile if you know that there's a hot meal and a comfortable bed a mile up the road. And I think that that concept, that joy set before us has really helped me during hard times, not only to endure, but also to see the joy around me.

I was finishing up the editing of the book, finishing up the last chapter, actually, my husband got laid off right before Thanksgiving last year. It was very surprising, but it was just a company restructuring. You know, they just laid off a bunch of people and moved departments around. And, but, you know, we felt that we kind of had the rug pulled out from under us. And, you know, I was very sad about it. pulled out from under us. And, you know, I was very sad about it. And I was like, you know what, God, I'm writing this book, Defiant Joy. I was like, I'd love it if you could, because we're right in the editing process. I was like, use this, work through this time to help me edit it from that perspective, from the perspective of the pit, from the perspective of the valley.

And I think it really ultimately ended up helping my writing. But one of the things that I learned, even while we were editing, my kids, you know, we sat them down and we told them, it's like, you know, daddy lost his job. They're all in elementary school. They're 11, 9, and 7. And so, you know, they're, they don't really understand how money works or anything like that. And, um, they were like, well, are we going to have to move? And we were like, maybe we don't know yet. And they're like, well, if we move, we have to go to a new school, you know, we have to go to a new church. And it was like, maybe, you know, we don't know. And so, and I told them, I was like, I'm probably going to have to go to a new church? And it was like, maybe, you know, we don't know. And so, and I,

I told them, I was like, I'm probably going to have to get a job. You know, I was actually applying for jobs as a waitress. And, um, I told him, I was like, mama's going to have to work in the evenings when daddy gets home. And they were very sad about that. And they were like, well, mommy, we want to work too. And I was like, well, what do you want to do? And they were like, well, mommy, we want to work too. And I was like, well, what do you want to do? And they were like, well, let's, let's do, uh, my 11 year old was like, let's do a hot cocoa stand. If you like a lemonade stand, but you know, it's, it's the holidays. And so it'll be for Christmas and we can sell hot cocoa to our neighbors. And, you know, we're sitting at the table and I'm looking outside and it's pouring down rain and 37 degrees. And I was like, babe, I love you, but I am not standing out in the rain with a hot cocoa stand right now.

So I was like, what about this? What about we make Christmas cookies and you guys can sell those to the neighbors? And they were like, yes, And pies and cakes. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. But I, I agreed. Cause you know, I was already feeling bad and guilty about all this. So I was like, sure. So that like, but that was just like, to me, that was like the threads of joy, you know, just like rays of sunshine coming through the clouds, you know, just my kids, just, just shining joy into our lives, um, in a very dark time. Well, not very, very dark, but definitely cloudy. And, um, but yeah, I ended, we ended up making

35 pies, uh, that for Thanksgiving and Christmas for our our neighbors and i don't even know how many cookies like well over 300 cookies and yeah so the girls saved up money oh my gosh kids kids are great they're the best they'll make they'll make an adventure out of anything you know as parents we're freaking out and they're like we can do this this, you know? So that's an awesome story. Yeah. So yeah, we had, we ended up having a lot of fun and it ended up, even though it was a really scary time, it ends, I think it's going to be one of my favorite memories of parenting ever. Like currently, it definitely is. Jen, thank you so much for coming on Theology Narah and for this, you know, very sobering topic and for, again, your transparency and honesty. I really encourage people to check out your books, Defiant Joy, and then your earlier

one, Not Forsaken. So thanks, Jen, for your work and you're a blessing on the church. So yeah, keep it up. I really appreciate you and thank you for your ministry as well. this show is part of the converge podcast network