Theology in the Raw - Surviving an Unwanted Divorce: Lysa TerKeurst and Dr. Joel Muddamalle

Episode Date: November 17, 2025

Join the Theology in the Raw community for as little as $5/month to get access to premium content. Lysa TerKeurst is the president and chief visionary officer of Proverbs 31 Ministries and the author of eight New York Times bestsellers. Her most recent book is Surviving an Unwanted Divorce: A Biblical, Practical Guide to Letting Go While Holding Yourself Together, which she co-wrote with Jim Cress and Dr. Joel Muddamalle, who joins us on the show. Joel holds a PhD in theology, serves as the director of theology and research at Proverbs 31 Ministries, and has written several books including the forthcoming book The Unseen Battle. He and Lysa cohosts the Therapy & Theology podcast. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It got to the point where I had pretty much convinced myself that I was the crazy one. And because I feared that I was the crazy one, that isolated me even more because I didn't know who would possibly be safe enough for me to talk to. So I didn't talk to anyone. And I don't know which was more devastating. The fact that I found out my husband was being unfaithful or the fact that I felt like I'd been made to feel crazy. I don't know which is more devastating. There's not even a word to describe the depth of that kind of pain. The Exiles of Babylon conference has happened at again, April 30th to May 2nd, 2026 in Minneapolis, Minnesota.

This is going to be an amazing conference. Go over to TheologianRaw.com to check out all the details and register soon to take advantage of the Early Bird Special, which ends, I believe, January 15th, I think. So Theologianin.com. My guests, guests, plural today, are Lisa Turkhurst and Dr. Joel Mutumali. Lisa is the president and chief visionary officer of Proverbs 31 Ministries and the author of eight, eight New York Times bestselling books. That is absolutely insane, by the way.

I don't know if you have a category for what it takes to be a New York Times bestselling author eight times. That's insane. So lots of fans out there, I'm sure. Her most recent book is Surviving in Unwanted Divorce, a Biblical Practical Guide to Letting Go While Holding Yourself Together, which she co-wrote with Jim Kress, a therapist, and Dr. Joel Mutamali, who joins us on the show today. Joel holds a PhD at Theology, serves as the director of theology and research at Proverbs 31 Ministries and has written several books, including his forthcoming book, The Unseen Battle, which is insanely awesome. You got to check that out. Lisa co-host the therapy and theology podcast. This was a really great conversation. And this is an outstanding book, surviving an unwanted divorce. I was just reading it this morning.

And it's just, well, we talk a lot about it. But I just really appreciated how raw and honest and how biblical it is, which I know lots of books that are raw and honest. I know lots of books that are biblical to combine those two categories is not always easy. And they do it extremely well. So please welcome to the show for the first time, the one and only Lisa Turkhurst and Joel Mutimali. All right, Lisa, Joel, welcome to Theology to Raw. I'm very excited about this conversation. First of all, let me hold up the book you guys wrote with Jim Kress,

surviving an unwanted divorce. I just want to thank you both. And I guess, especially Lisa, for writing this book. And I say especially Lisa, because you are so vulnerable and raw. and honest in the book and um your divorce was not that long ago um and the way you describe being up that night and just coming to the realization that this is something that you need to do and i just felt like i was um living your story with you so i i yeah thank you for the book i think it's going to really bless and challenge and comfort so many people what lisa let me start with you what

what led you to want to write this? It was one thing to go through this, but to write a book about it, like that's taking it to a whole new level. Yeah, well, I didn't, I did not want to write a book about this. I did not want this to be my story. I certainly do not want to be the poster child for divorce,

and I definitely don't want it to seem as if I'm pro-divorce and not pro-marriage. I am very pro-marriage. I'm very pro-marriage. I'm very pro healthy marriage. I'm very pro the marriage that, yes, you're going to have some difficulties because all marriages have difficulties, but, you know, I really believe in fighting through those difficulties to, you know, get to a healthier place in your marriage and, you know, all of that.

That's the story I wanted. Unfortunately, that's not how my story went because there's a big difference between a difficult marriage and a destructive marriage. my friend Leslie Burnick helped me see that. And when you're in a destructive marriage, there are dysfunctional patterns of, you know, different kinds of decisions that the spouse who is creating the confusion and the chaos and the destruction, you know,

there's abuse, there's addictions, there's so many things that play into this, that cross that line over into destruction. And I was very resistant to believing that. I just kept thinking, you know, one more conference, one more counseling session, one more treatment program, you know, one more year of staying, one more time of forgiveness, one more reconciliation, and things are going to turn around. So, yes, you know, the last 10 years of my marriage, I was separated off and on five of those

years. And so, you know, my journey was much longer than what people probably even realize. So by the time that I finally got to the place where I accepted a very painful reality and walked through the death of my marriage, it had been years in the making, years of heartbreak. And so, you know, the moment you referred to in the book where I'm staring out the window and I'm equally terrified of the future and yet equally like resolved that I knew this direction that I needed to go. I felt at that point I did not have another option to try to save the marriage. And yet the one person I wanted to call the most was, you know, the man that I'd been married to for 30 years. So, you know, it's this extreme harshness when there's a severance.

when there's a severing of a relationship that you thought would be for a lifetime. And yeah, so that's where I was. So, yeah, I never wanted to write this book because this isn't the story I wanted to live. And yet because it's the story that I've lived and because I see so many people desperate for the exact kind of wisdom and therapeutic toolkit and the theology underpinnings, Like, I have access to all of that, and I just could not keep it to myself. I knew I not only needed to help people surviving and unwanted divorce, but I also needed to help lay leaders and pastors and counselors have the theological understanding of what the Bible actually does and does not say about divorce,

and certainly that's where Dr. Joel Munamali comes in. Yeah. Yeah, I want to get to the theology in a bit. I've got several questions and as I said offline, Joel, I mean, you did a remarkable job handling a very difficult theological topic in such an accessible way. I mean, big books have been written on this. Lots of debates have erupted and you did it in such a well-written, easy to understand way without losing the depth. Lisa, when you, can you take us back to that time when you first started to get suspicions of infidelity? I mean, you talk in your, and other destructive things, you talk about kind of like almost like pretending like it wasn't happening or making

excuses for yourself. It took you a long time to really come to the realization like this is happening. When did you first start to get glimpses of that? And what did that feel like? Yeah, well, at first there was a lot of confusion. because, you know, I very much deeply respected my then-husband, and I had trusted him, like, you know, for as many years as we've been married, I mean, there was a lot of trust there. And so, you know, I couldn't even let my brain go. Even when I would see that things were off, I couldn't let my brain go to suspicion because I would quickly override it. But, the reality of who I thought he was and who everyone else saw him as. And so, you know, I started to feel like maybe I was crazy because I would see things and then I would ask about it. And then, you know, I was told, that's not what you saw. That's not what you heard. That's not what you experienced. And when there's this pattern of

this, I think it got to the point where I had pretty much convinced myself that I was the crazy one. And because I feared that I was the crazy one, then that isolated me even more because I didn't know who could, who would possibly be safe enough for me to talk to. So I didn't talk to anyone. I didn't tell anyone what I was going through for years. And yet the weekend of my oldest daughter's wedding in early 2016 is when I found a burner phone. And at that point, I could no longer deny that things were, things were not as they seemed. And I realized at that point that those suspicions I had were legitimate and that I was not crazy. And I don't know which was more devastating. The fact that I found out my husband was being unfaithful or the fact that I felt like I'd been made to feel crazy.

I don't know which is more devastating, but it hurt. I just don't even, there's not even a word to describe the depth of that kind of pain. Yeah. I can't. I can't imagine. Cannot imagine. And yet a lot of people listening are like, I don't have to imagine this, this has been their experience. I told you offline that, you know, my parents were divorced when I was 10.

I was kind of a clueless kid. Like I never questioned Santa Claus, Easter Bunny. I was just oblivious kind of kid. So I think my oblivious personality weathered that pretty well. In fact, even now when I talk to my counselor, you know, everybody's always starting to dig it up. Like, surely there's deep down trauma in your life. And I'm like, well, it wasn't great, but it wasn't. didn't devastate me like it did most kids and I think even more recently my therapist was like

kept digging digging she's like I think you're good you just god bless you with a certain kind of resilience but I but I I I don't know really a glimpse of the pain that my uh parents my mom in particular went through um but I do have memories of like oh wow that's why she was crying oh that's why she was you know like seemed that way you know um so Well, you know, what's interesting, Preston, that you say that is, you know, all of us at different points in our life, we're going to go through really hard experiences. And even to the point where some things we go through, you might even label as trauma. And so, and I don't want to overuse that word because sometimes I think the word trauma gets put on garden variety problems. So we don't want to maximize trauma.

We definitely don't want to minimize it, though. So regardless, your parents getting divorced, it was a trauma in your childhood. But here's the interesting part. How that trauma affects us is determined not just by what happened, but by the story we tell ourselves because of what happened. And so what I hear in your situation, not to pathologize your story, but what I hear is basically you went through that trauma, but there was a certain story you told yourself that lent your upbringing to a better, a better processing than some other people, you know.

And so I do think we have to pay attention to not just the traumas we've been through, but the story we tell ourselves because of the trauma. And, you know, I think the story that many people tell themselves when they're going through an unwanted divorce is, I am unwanted, unloved, there must be something wrong with me. I have to figure it out. And if I can't figure it out, then I'm going to spend the rest of my life asking questions because I think questions will comfort me. And in the end, you know, when someone is, you know, like if your spouse is living a secret

double life, first of all, you're not going to get the answers of everything. You're not going to know, like the what, when, how, you know, where you're not going to have all of those answers. And if you wait to get to this place of healing, because you think it's the answers that will heal you, then you could be stuck in that trauma forever. And you will be telling yourself a pretty crazy story about who you are and how you are.

So I always say, you know, there's just some things in life that will not make sense. And Jim Kress, who's one of our co-authors, has often said in our therapy sessions together, he will say, Lisa, don't try to make sense of something that makes no sense or you will lose all sense. And so the story work that I had to do

was fully acknowledging what I did know but then working on the story that I now tell myself because of what I've walked through. That's where real progress can happen. When you found that burner phone, did you talk to your husband or did you? Not at first. Not at first. Why? Just still in like self-denial or just not wanting to believe what you're seeing? Well, because it was the weekend of my daughter's website. And so I, yeah, I took the phone and I still didn't want to believe, you know, that it could be the sign of infidelity. I still was holding onto this little hope. I couldn't unlock the phone at first. And so I was still holding on to this little shred of hope that I knew it was bad, but maybe it was, maybe it was something that, you know, was like maybe it was gambling. Maybe it was like, you know, maybe he was getting some kind of.

of substance. I don't know. And I took it over to a friend's house who's good with technology. We never could unlock the phone. And so as my daughter's rehearsal dinner was starting at my house, I finally handed the phone over to my ex-husband. And I just said, tell me, like, I'll give you the phone back, but just tell me what's going on. And that's when he told me he'd met someone else and that he wanted to be with her and then he finished getting dressed and walked out and greeted all of our guests and I was laying in the in the couch in the fetal like I was I was laying in the closet of my room in the fetal position and um you know I called two friends and told them what was going on and they literally came back there they put my clothes on me

they literally had to dress me one took one elbow one took the other elbow and they walked me out and put me in the chair that I pretty much stayed in the whole night with tears just screaming down my face. I was in shock. I'm so sorry. That, oh, gosh, I can't imagine the pain that you felt. So you said that was 2016. You guys tried to make it work for several years, right? What was that process like? Well, you know, I think there, were good reasons why I tried to make it work for so long. I also think there were some unhealthy reasons, too. You know, nothing I was doing would have justified him living a double life. But I did have some codependency happening there. And codependency is, I need you to be okay

so that I can be okay. So how can I make you okay? Because I want to feel okay, okay? And so there was some of that going on and you know when you're struggling with that needing someone else to be okay then you lay down your life to try to make that other person okay and i thought i was being a good christian wife because jesus modeled for us to lay down our life right for others that's what he did but i think it's really important to correctly view that verse and correctly view what jesus was exemplifying there Jesus laid down his life to accomplish a high and holy purpose. Jesus did not lay down his life to enable bad behavior to continue. What I didn't realize is I kept thinking, you know, the best thing for my kids is to fight

for my marriage, fight for my marriage, fight for my marriage, fight for my marriage. What I didn't realize is I kept rescuing him from consequences that were his only hope of getting better. And so at some point, I literally had to say, I'm getting. getting, in order to stay with someone like this, I will have to get as unhealthy as they are. And my kids deserve one healthy parent. And so it took me years. Yes.

Yes. So many counseling sessions. So many second chances. Even we renewed our vows at one point. And in the end, I gave it one last year. And I just said, I'm no longer going to enable. I'm going to create enough separation here to where. I'm just going to let him make his own choices, and I'm going to do it for an entire year.

I'll leave room for God to move, and I'll just see what he chooses without any influence for me. And in the end, I got the clarity I needed. It was not the clarity I wanted, but it was the clarity that I needed. He had made his choice, and his choice was not me. I love seafood. It's high in protein. It's got all kinds of health benefits, and it tastes amazing. But here's the thing.

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Thanks to Wild Alaskan company for sponsoring this episode. When you filed for divorce or raised a topic, I mean, was he resistant or was he kind of like, great, you know, how was that process? Like, what was his response? You know, I don't know, Preston. I'm always careful not to, you know, like, pretend like I knew what he was feeling. I knew what he was going through. You know, I'm not sure. You know, I just know that where I got to and the place that I got to, it was the deepest grief I've ever known. But in the end, I had to say, I'm not walking away from this marriage. I'm

accepting a very painful reality. And mental health is a commitment to reality at all cost, therefore, you know, I've got to live in reality. And reality is that the death of the marriage had already happened, you know? And then I filed for divorce. You know, I think some people want to know, like, why did I stay so long? The last 10 years of my marriage, we were separated almost five of those years, off and on, off and on, off and on, often on, off on. And I think that there were honorable reasons why I stayed so long, but I also think there were pretty unhealthy reasons I stayed so long. But it is what it is at this point. I can tell you that one thing Jim helped me see is I lowered my post-abortion regret down to zero. Oh, wow. And I don't have

to live with that pain. I know I did everything I possibly could. And I did a whole lot of things I probably shouldn't have done to try to save the marriage. Are you still in relationship with your ex-husband or no? No. No, okay. You're a deep thinker, very biblically centered. So I'm sure there was a lot of like, what does the Bible say about, you know, divorce? What was that the theological journey like for you? And then I want to go to Joel and do a bit of a deep dive into what the Bible says about divorce.

But in your own kind of theological reflection, was that a nagging question? in the back your mind or was it because there's infidelity that's kind of most people would agree that's pretty explicitly stated that that is grounds for divorce yeah i i felt tortured by certain verses and so i'll actually let joel tell the story of you know i went through so much internal confusion and hurt, you know, I still have people saying, you know, don't forget Lisa, God hates divorce. And I felt the weight not only of making a decision that was going to impact my future and my kids' future and my grandkids' future, but I also carried the weight of I'm a woman in ministry. Yeah. And, you know, I had people putting a lot of pressure on me

despite the infidelity, but putting pressure on me, you know, like, Lisa, if you do this, if you make this decision, you know, you're going to open up Pandora's box to make other women think that it's okay. And there was just so much pressure and shame. And so I cried a lot and I wrestled a lot. And then I decided one day to open up to Joel about what I was going through and Joel I'll let you pick up the story from there yeah um so you know I present I've done a lot of just spent a lot of time in academia like biblical study and theology and um I met Lisa 10 years ago over 10 years ago is when we actually first met I was working for a Bible software company and we met at an event and she began to kind of unpack like hey I think we really need to

eradicate biblical poverty and I like my ears and eyes kind of like, wait, what do you mean by biblical poverty? I think about compassion and like, you know, child poverty, but what do you mean by biblical poverty? And she began to describe like, hey, people have more access to the Bible than ever before. And yet biblical literacy is tanking. Like, we can have more knowledge, but actually lesser understanding, which is like a wild concept. And I kind of had my, um, Luke 24, Jesus on the road to Amas moment where like, my heart just comes alive and like, oh my gosh, this is the thing that I feel like the Lord has called me to. And this woman is putting words behind. And this woman is putting words behind.

this like thing that I'm so passionate about. And so that started a journey where we, my wife and I at that point, we had three little boys, Liam Leibat and Luke. We're all under the age of six probably at that point. And we relocated from the Chicagoland area, which I did like a short two-year stint and moved to Charlotte where the ministry, Proverbs 31, is located. And it wasn't less than a year and a half into that, that Lisa's world started to really. spiral and just devastation took place. And I was kind of invited into the conversation. We live life together. We were like actual friends, Preston, like Lisa and I. My kids call her Auntie Lisa. Like we just had like we just had a thing that happened with some kids like with my kids just a

couple weeks ago. And my wife and I call Lisa, you know, for wisdom. And so I say all of that just to paint the picture of the moment. And we're sitting at our house. We do theology study days typically at Lisa's house and we're at this gray table and we're with another friend Leah who works closely with us and Lisa was coming out. I remember she walked out and her eyes were just bloodshot red and she walked towards us and at that point you kind of, when you've had friends that have been in this kind of pain, you know that the tears stopped pouring like probably hours before but if there were more tears, they would still be gone. There just aren't any more tears left. and she sat down at the table and she kind of looked at me and she just asked, she said,

Joel, is it true that God hates divorce? And I remember, like, sometimes I have this sense, like I'm supposed to have answers. Like, I'm like, if anybody remembers the Bible answer man, like you feel this pressure. The Bible answer man. Like, I just remember thinking, like, how inept and inadequate I was for that question. And then I'm like, how in the world am I, like, I've done all this study and, like, all the, and I can't remember in seminary or in my PhD work, like, taking any type of detailed account at this, like, we'll cover it in a, you know, and this is where kind of this phrase kind came out that I'm so committed to now, and that is a theology that is unlivable, is absolutely

unhelpful. Right. And so it's like, here's a moment where there's like theological thoughts and ideas that have to intersect with real life. And they have to like, and it's like, well, how do we know that this is even biblical. Well, Jesus, this is how we know it's biblical. Like, in the incarnation, Jesus gives us a lived theology. And so we sat there and we wrestled, you know. And I remember telling Lise, like, hey, there's a lot of different opinions on, on this. And it led us to look at Malachi 216, which obviously opens up like a whole slew of questions of interpretation. And even just in modern Bible, English translations, how they're opting to translate. like that verse. And so that was kind of our maybe story of how we got in there. And then we're

talking another two to six years of like that was the conversation. We're unpacking it. Lisa, I would just say Lisa, your your phraseology there is really Romans 12. It's like if possible, so far as it depends on you, pursue peace with all people. So it's like least lived the if possible and finally got and did all that she could like as it depends on her. which I think is a statement of agency that Paul gives us. Like, imagine that verse, if possible, so far as it depends on them. And you're like, whew, like, now I don't have any agency, right? And so it's like, actually, it's a gift.

Even though in that moment, you probably feel like, this is unfair. Why does it always have to depend on me? Why am I always the one who's got to do the therapy? Why am I always the one who's got to check on the phone? Why am I always the one who's got to bear the weight of the responsibility? But when we look at it, when we go, oh, Paul starts with the conditional clause. it's like, if possible, he's implying sometimes it might not be possible. Right.

But the condition is still like, hey, like, do all that you can. And then, like, the outcome, the imperative is still peace. Like, you've got to pursue peace. And sometimes peace is possible in your presence. But sometimes the only way peace is possible when it's like the relationship is not possible is to remove your presence from that situation so you can have internal peace there. And so we walked through that for the next two to six years. That's kind of the birthplace of therapy and theology.

Lisa was like, by the way, In theology study days, Joel and I are having these conversations while Jim in our therapy sessions are having similar conversations, we kind of grew up in a world where therapy and theology always supposed to be antithetical to each other, like opposed to each other. I remember the day Lisa said, Joel, would you be open to having like a lunch study session with Jim? And I was like, I don't know, Lee. I'm not trying to get into a debate with, you know, this dude. And I remember Jim walked into the door and instantly, I was just like, gosh, the humility and the wisdom. And And he's got a seminary degree from Dallas Theological Seminary.

The dude, he's a theologian himself. And so that was kind of the origin story of therapy and theology, but it really was at the crux of one of the most painful moments for Lisa, which sin has a compound impact. And it was no longer, it wasn't just painful for her. It was painful for all of us that obviously walked at a bearing degree. But we really had to wrestle with what the Bible actually says about divorce. What is Jesus getting at in Matthew 19? what is the culture, the context, and how do we do the hard work of like interpreting

and contextualizing these verses into our modern context. And so, yeah. So Malachi 216, God hates divorce. That's not even, that's not the only way to translate that or the little I've dabbled in it, maybe not even the best way. There's actually a completely different translation that's possible, maybe even better, right?

Can you summarize the, what's going on there? Yeah, so Malachi 216, so it's kind of like there's these phrases that I think that live in infamy that are Christian phrases. And we just are like, oh, yeah, it's the word of God. Like, absolutely. And I think this is one of those phrases that God hates divorce. And you look back and go, where does it come from? And most people today, if they jump to their like U version app or their Bibles and they've got NIV, ESV, CSB, they're like, wait a minute. Malchite 216 doesn't even say that.

Right. So now this, like, it poses this, like, philosophical and, like, question, like, where did we even get this? Did somebody just, like, hijack this phrase and play the best con game ever on an entire civilization of Christians? Like, how did this happen? And it's like, well, no, actually, there's a reason for this. The King James versions, the 1611, actually the updated NKJV actually says, God hates divorce. And so this is going to take us into a little bit of, like, of, you know, Bible translation. world, but I think that if you, I'm pretty confident, I did this. If you take the Hebrew text,

the Maseratic text of Malachi 216, and you handed it to a Hebrew scholar, you said, translate this for me. I think that they're going to go. And actually, this happened in real life. Ooh, hold on. Let me just, let me just, you know, and it's there's a reason why. There's a level of ambiguity to the text. There's words that can be taken as neutral. And so then, I think what happens is the KJV and the NKJV, this is speculative on my part. I think they move from a translation decision to an interpretation decision. And at some level, I think it's an interpretation based off of a hermeneutic of fear. And so you have this phrase, like God hates divorce.

But if you look at the subterogent, the Hebrew Bible translated into Greek, it actually clarifies this a little bit more where the subject of that hate, that Hebrew word for hate, the subject is not God. the subject is actually the husband who is unfaithful. And then when you look at like Dead Sea Scrolls and then you're looking at rabbinic sources, it's like, wait a minute, the preferred version, the preferred translation is not God hates divorce. And I'll just read from like the CSB, verse 16 just says, if he and the he is the husband, if he hates and divorces his wife.

And then we go into a statement that God is saying, so this is God's speech, says the Lord God of Israel, and then it shifts back to he, the subject is that husband, he covers his garments with injustice, says the Lord of armies. And then right after that, therefore, so, you know, therefore is always there for a reason. Like, that therefore, in light of this hatred, in light of this injustice, God's like, always like, watch yourself carefully and don't act treacherously. At this point, people would be like, but Joel, is that. Is this like a difference with a distinction? Like it's like, you know, there's no. And I'd be like, no, this is a difference with this of the huge distinction. It's a completely different. It's a completely different meaning. That ESP has something very similar. Yeah.

So it, I mean, it's almost the opposite. Yeah. It's not condemning divorce, certainly not all divorces. It's actually addressing the husband failing to love his wife. and covering the ESV says you said injustice the ESV says uh where is it oh covers his garment with violence violence yeah you know the hero is Hamas there it's yeah oh right yeah it's it's there's a you know injustice wrongdoing violence it there's it's it's kind of exact but actually I think this is fascinating there is a militaristic background to this and I actually go

all the way back to Genesis. I think where are we in Genesis chapter three? Joel, while you look for that, I want to tell you in the N.I.V. what Malakow 216 says, it says, when a man hates and divorces his wife, he does violence against the one he should protect, thus says the Lord. Yeah. So the violence is, it is directed toward the woman. In other words, you know, and I know this can go both ways.

I know sometimes it's the woman that's having the destructive patterns that are destroying the marriage. But in my situation, you know, when we finally got to understanding a more correct version beyond just the King James version, you know, when a man hates and divorces his wife, he does violence against the one he should protect, thus says the Lord, I mean, the relief that I felt in that moment was immense. And this was one of those moments where I thought, I don't want to write about this, but how can I not write about this when so many hurting women have had this verse weaponized against them to keep them inside of destructive marriages that do not honor the Lord, you know? And so, yeah, this was a, this was a huge moment for me. Wow. And it's what's cool is like you're not, you know, some people could like want to read into the Bible what they want to see. I think it's a tendency for everybody. But here, this is a clear case where you're just wrecking, you're not reading into the text that you want to be there or finding some obscure interpretation.

You're just kind of seeing the original meaning of this verse for what it is. So I just, I think that kind of relief is, yeah, admirable because some people might, I can sell, I'm like, well, yeah, I think you're just kind of trying to read this verse the way you want to. This is definitely not that case. No, this is not that case. And again, the sources point to that, you know. And I want to go to that violence part because we started this conversation with just like the pain. And like, you know, present you had multiple times like, gosh, I can't even imagine. And I think like, of course, like of course that pain. And so it's like that violence. I think of Genesis 224. This is why man leaves his father and mother and bonds with his wife. You know, that Hebrew word bond the voc. It's the same word that's used of an alligator. scales, you know, you think about like the protection. It's the same word that's used of metallurgy for like the breastplate that like protects. And so it's like, I do think that there is something that's happening here of talking about the violence of this is that when these two that are bonded that are merged together for the safety and protection of each other, when that's ripped apart, like, of course it's painful. It was never intended to be there.

The scales of an alligator were never intended to be ripped off of it. It was, it was intended to protect it, you know? And so I just, I just want to bring in, like, yeah, like, this was not God's ideal. Like, there's a real devastation to this. And God in his foresight and his providence has this pattern where, like, he almost anticipates, he doesn't almost, he does anticipate the sinfulness of humanity. And he puts in place protection, you know, for the least, for the vulnerable, for those in the margins of society. And Israel is like this beacon of hope. I think, in the ancient, near-eastern world of how the people of God and how humanity ought to live

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or use code TITR 50 at checkout. Can we go to Matthew 19? Because that's the big one. And I love how you raise chapter four of the book where you asked the question. question, you know, is sexual infidelity the only grounds for divorce? First of all, would you say that that is the most common, popular mainstream view? Or I know there's various views in this passage, but is that kind of like the default position that anything other than sexual

infidelity is not biblical grounds for divorce? Yeah, I would say the, yeah, 100% percent. I would say that by and far that divorce as a possibility is widely accepted, right? Like we can start there. Like divorces, I think there was a time where it would be like, no, no reason at all. I think we've well moved beyond that. John Piper held that. Right. Right. But then we get to like Matthew 19. So then it's like, the next step is like, well, then the only case for a divorce is in the question of adultery. And that obviously is pulled from Matthew 19. And Matthew 19 is, I is somewhat more of a complex passage than, you know, I think of Transformers. What, you know, there's more than what, what meets the eye on this passage.

Wait, how old are you? I'm 40. I turned 40. I turned 40 last week. Yeah. More than meets the eye. Oh, man. I got shades of 1987 going on my head right now. Yeah, the cartoon was the best. I love that cartoon. So, so Matthew 19. Yes, he says, you know, except for sexual immorality, pornea, I think it is, right? The Greek word. so it seems to be like this is the one exception but you do a great job unpacking this verse

so can you yeah helps understand okay so I would start let me start with it a little bit of an illustration because I think that helps you know the Bible was not written void of historical social and cultural context I think that that's an important thing that we recognize that Jesus is walking

around a time where words and phrases had meaning and had context so for instance if I were to say hey how did the Jags do over the weekend. What would you say? I'd say, well, we struggled a bit playing football over in London, unfortunately. But we looked awesome when we played the Chiefs. We looked so good. Oh, yeah. Now when we get into the justification and the hope of disillusioned sports team fanatics, he's something like a Cowboys fan right there. No shade, no shade. I'm just joking. Okay, so this is, I think, an example of like, hey, today you and I do a great job on culture and content.

text. Like, we, uh, we understand words and phrases based off of their intended meaning. And so when I say, how are the Jags doing? It's because Joel knows that Lisa's husband now, um, her new husband, Chaz is an incredible dude. And Chaz is himself a, like a jag, Jaguar football fanatic. Fantasy football. We text each other consistently about Travis E.T.N. and Trevor Lawrence, how the dude's playing like the whole nine yards. Now, what's interesting, though, is Lee, um, how did you know when I said Jags? Like, obviously, that's what I meant. I was talking about football. What are the things that were going on in your mind well just because i live in near jackson bill and so you know when the minute you say jags i think of football because that's what i hear all the time in the

cultural context that i'm in now imagine we're to say hey there's a massive zoo also in jacksonville and you got your grandkids with you and say lees how how is your time with the grandkids uh seeing the jags you'd be like oh yeah you didn't think of animals yeah exactly or it'd be like you know, maybe you're in the car buying scenario and you're like, I've always dreamed of buying a Jaguar, you know? Like, it's so all this, I'm, I'm belaboring the point. But what I'm trying to show is that today we do this, we don't even think about it, that there's a culture. And the same thing is true in the time of Jesus in Matthew 19. And if we just kind of work, work through the tax. One, I'm convinced that Jesus Preston was hilarious. And I think he had a little bit of passive aggressive tendencies in the most holy and righteous ways. So like, here are the Pharisees. The Pharisees approach him. It's large crowds following him. Verse three, some Pharisees approached him to test him.

They asked him, is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife? And look at how they tried to set the trap on any grounds, right? So around the time of Jesus, there are these two primary schools of thought that have kind of come about, the school of Shammai and the school of Halel. And so the school of Shemai, we could just summarize it this way, that they believe that you can have a valid divorce as a matter of indecency. that is found. So that indecency, however, would have had to have been connected to sexual infidelity, to adultery. Now, the school of halal, they were much more liberal. Like, we could think about this in terms of conservative and liberal almost, you know, of schools of thought. And so in their kind of liberal more understanding, like any matter, that phrase is actually like for any

reason. And so in the Mishinau, there's even a story of an individual, you know, a woman who spoils her dish, like basically burns her food. It's like, There you go. You can divorce your wife for any matter. I found the reason, right? And so instantly, they're trying to set a trap. And then this is where I'm saying Jesus is a little passive-aggressive and he's hilarious. I think Jesus is a great hang.

Verse four, haven't you read? I mean, he's saying this to the Pharisees who are supposed to be the most watered people. You know, it's like, hey, by the way, haven't you read? And then it's really interesting that the next kind of diatribe that Jesus goes into is you think that he might be trying to shift away from the conversation. But what he's actually doing is, you know, a husband could be guilty of adultery only if he was sleeping with a married woman, another married woman. But if he slept with an unmarried woman, technically he would not be guilty of adultery. He would be guilty of fornication, but not adultery. So in a patriarchal society, in this scenario, Jesus does a little sidestap.

And what he does is he actually brings up and elevates the men to a level of responsibility. That's like, by the way, you both have responsibility, both men and women, to the unity, to the origin story of what God always intended for marriage. And then, verse seven, why then he asked them, so the Pharisees did Moses command, notice the language there, command us to give divorce papers and send her away. So this is the Pharisees putting their kind of interpret. lens on and translating the Hebrew Bible. And so Jesus responds in verse 8, he told them, well, actually, Moses permits you. So it's not a command. It's a permittance, right? And so what the Pharisees are doing is they're actually quoting from Deuteronomy 24-1. And the Hebrew grammar, the Hebrew grammar, there is neutral. So it could be he should or he may. And the Pharisees go with a concrete command that

he must. But Jesus actually clarifies this and then he interprets it to the lens of the gospel. And now he's saying, actually he may or it is loud, but it's not necessarily demanded. And then Jesus goes on to say, well, the allowance

of the divorce is based on a hardness of heart. A hardness of heart. Another very important word because this word is connected to the subterogen of Jeremiah 4.4 which refers to a kind of stubbornness, a kind of stubbornness. So this means that Jesus actually leaves room for divorce in the case of the offender who's showing a hardness of heart through persistent, stubborn unrepentance. And so this is where we would want to kind of clarify, we're not talking about like these one-off scenarios, you know, like I just made a mistake. We're talking about a pattern of behavior that is unrepentant and unbecoming of the people of God. And what Jesus is ultimately saying is that this halel understanding of like for any

reason, you can just find a way out, that's actually inconsistent with the way of God. And then divorce in the context of adultery, this is what he says, based off of sexual immorality, is permissible while there's also room for repentance and we should seek after it, but if it becomes necessary, it's necessary. Now, this is where I would just say, remember that the people of the time are filling in conceptual understandings of words and phrases in the same way, When I said to Lisa, how are the Jags doing? She filled in the gap. Football, they played in London at that time.

There's all this stuff that's filling in. So I'm actually pulling from Dr. Instone Brewer, who's an Old Testament scholar, probably the best scholar in terms of understanding ancient certificates of divorce and also kind of the grammar. And Instorm Brewer brings up this really important point where conceptually at the time when Jesus says sexual immorality, the people of the tax, are filling in conceptually in their mind. And of course he means, you know, Exodus 21, emotional neglect or material neglect or physical neglect. And so what we see as restrictive at that time would have been less about restrictive, but highlighting that one word, just like we would say the jacks, to trigger a series of other things that would have filled in the gap. And so I would just suggest that it could be interpreted that way. I would make the

argumenter in that time that would have not been the instant way to interpret it as an exclusivity. Just to clarify. So when he says except for sexual immorality, he's not saying that this is the only exception. He's just triggering one among other grounds for divorce rooted in like Exodus 21. Okay. Yeah. And the reason why I think that's a valid understanding. is because notice this entire conversation is already based on these two schools of thought. We're already dealing with the school of Hillel and the school of Shemai.

We're already dealing with what is permissible and what's not permissible. Jesus is reframing the conversation and he doesn't need to give every detail, right? And we don't see the recording of that. And yet we're trying to just figure out like, how would that original here have heard this? And so that's where I'd say,

well, yeah, they would have filled into blanks of saying there are these categories. that divorce would have been permissible. Okay, okay. Yeah, David Instone Brewer, yeah, he's written a lot on this. I remember meeting him like 20 years ago. I think right when he finished his book on divorce. This is before I even knew who he was.

I bumped into him at a library in England. And I remember, so, yeah, he said, oh, yeah, I've just finished a book on divorce, whatever. Like, oh, tell me about that, you know. And then later, now looking back, I'm like, oh, yeah, he's written like, he's kind of like extensively. Yeah, yeah, yeah, very much. So he's a very thorough scholar. Have you come across that?

I think it's an article by Wayne Grudem. It's an online article in 1st Corinthians 7. I think it's 15. You have that phrase, such, oh gosh, I should have this in front of me. Such things. He looks into this phrase like divorce and, you know, but then to use the phrase like such things, meaning like this is one example of other things

that would be destructive to the marriage. If you Googled it, Wayne Grudham, First Corinthians 7, divorce or something, probably pop up for those listening. A really fascinating study. And he goes through a lot of research on that phrase and how that includes other things. And he's raising a question is, is divorce permissible in cases of abuse? Right. Which most people are just going to say, well, of course. That's what I would, that's what I would say, right? Yeah. But then you say, well, does the Bible allow for that? Yeah, yeah. And it does, according to like, Grudham, who's a very, very conservative scholar. He's not going to like, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And it's interesting in 1 Corinthians 7, you know, 1 through 5, really, again, Paul's a good Hebrew kid, right? Like, he's a good Hebrew boy. He understands his Old Testament. And so Paul is dealing with kind of that emotional obligation that's included in divorce, right? And then when he's writing in 1st Corinthians, like three, in elsewhere in 1st Corinthians, he's dealing with the material obligations that brings a connection back to Exodus 21 of like this understanding of the permissibility of divorce being possible in the context of emotional neglect, material neglect,

and physical neglect. And so some people might be like, well, what are those things? Like material neglect, we've been like withholding food, clothing, or shelter, you know, emotional neglect would be conjugal rights, you know, that rabbis, I think, also had in mind a type of cruelty and humiliation that this kind of encompass as well. And then physical neglect, unfaithfulness, adultery, and physical abuse. And so while the rabbis had in mind a way to restore, if possible, the certificate of divorce that was granted to the woman, this is, again, one of the things that Brewer, Instant Brewer brings up, that the certificate of divorce was an known piece of paper, parchment in the ancient nearest and world amongst all the other nations of the world. I didn't know that. Yeah, you said that in the book. I was fascinating, right?

And again, it points to the heart of God that Godhead kind of puts the safety net in place for women. And why this isn't important is because with the certificate of divorce, when they could remarry, but then also secondarily, they get the dowry or the Katuba. They get that back from the husband. So there's some financial stability that's kind of. connected there as well. And so I just think that in the New Testament, when Jesus is talking in Matthew 19, he's not drawing from an ambiguous place. They're having a conversation and the common

playground of that conversation is Exodus 21. It's Deuteronomy 24. It's these places that the rabbis have already been trying to, or the Pharisees and Sadducees actually have already been trying to determine and they've split into two camps on what the possibility is. Yeah. The verse I was looking for it. It is First Corinthians 7.15. But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so. In such cases, the brother or sister is not enslaved. God has called you to peace. And it's that phrase in such cases, meaning this case and other things kind of like this. And again, Grudham went to a big background study on what those other cases might look like. I know we're coming close to the hour here. I want to bring it back to Lisa. I'm really curious how your

divorce has affected either your ministry and or, have you gotten, like, flack from other Christians or believers, criticism, shame? What's the post-divorce life been like for you? You know, such a good question, Preston. How has it impacted the ministry? Well, unfortunately, there are so many women going through this, and because they know that I understand the depth of the pain, I've become a safe person for them to turn to. And I think because Jim and Joel and I have shown over and over and over how important correct theology is, I think we've become not only a safe place,

but a trusted place. And so this is not the area of my ministry that I wanted to grow. But I would say this is actually the fastest growing part of our ministry. And I don't believe it's because in any way, shape, or form, I have inadvertently given women permission to divorce. I don't think that. I think that women were looking for a safe place that they could trust from a theological, standpoint to finally raise their hand and say, I'm in this situation and I need help. And I'm

grateful that we have the help that can get them started on their journey. And of course, we always say, we're not going to tell you what to think. I'm not out there telling women, get a divorce. I'm not encouraging that. Neither is Joel, neither is Jim. We're not going to tell you what to think. We're just going to give you a lot to think about. And I want to provide these women with the emotional fortitude and the biblical confidence to be able to process this through the lens of truth. And I think that's really important. And then the second part of your question, you know, have I gotten a lot of pushback? I think that there probably are conversations being had where people, you know, don't particularly like the fact.

that I've gotten a divorce, but honestly, Preston, I think I've been shielded from those. I've been so grateful. I think people saw how long and how hard that I fought for my marriage. I think my story has become more obvious as time has gone on. And I think people know, like, if there was anything else that could have been done, I would have done it even. And like I said, there were good reasons for that and unhealthy reasons for that. So did I have people, at the beginning of the journey, saying really cool things to me? Absolutely. But have a lot of those people retracted their statement? 100%. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. And I think even if they haven't retracted it, I think the way they treat me now retracts their original view of, you know,

how detrimental it would be for me to get a divorce. I think, I think the story, sometimes time brings clarity because, you know, it's not that I'm revealing more details. It's just that a clear picture has been formed by kind of looking at what's played out over time. And, you know, I think people can see that I wasn't in a rush to get into another relationship. It was years before I would even date. And so I think that helped build a little more. trust into the decision I make that I made and that, you know, it was the right decision. So, but thank you for asking that question. Yeah.

No, yeah. That's, I know there's a lot of, well, there's a lot of shame in the church surrounding many different things, unfortunately, and divorces can be one of those. So thank you both, again, for being on Theologian. Thank you for writing this, this really helpful book. Again, it's surviving and unwanted divorce, a biblical, practical guide to letting go while holding yourself together. I mean, just to say it again,

my favorite thing about this book is it's not just a testimony. Those are great. Those are amazing. But when you're dealing with something that is theologically sensitive, I just, I so appreciate as a theologian. Obviously, you know, like the fact that you did ask

the hard questions and did just say, this is the horrible experience I went through, it is terrible, blah, blah, blah, which, again, there's a place for those books, but I just love that you. you wove in a theology of marriage, theology, divorce, answered hard questions. So thank you both again for the book, and thanks for being on Thealgia and Romp. Thanks, Preston.

Thank you.