Theology in the Raw - The Secrets of Effective Writing, and How to Tame Your Thoughts: Max Lucado

Episode Date: August 11, 2025

Max Lucado is a pastor, speaker, and best-selling author who, in his own words, “writes books for people who don’t read books.” He serves the people of Oak Hills Church in San Antonio, Texas. Max’s books have sold more than 150 million copies in over 50 languages worldwide. His latest book is: Tame Your Thoughts: Three Tools to Renew Your Mind and Transform Your Life. Join the Theology in the Raw community for as little as $5/month to get access to premium content. https://www.patreon.com/theologyintheraw See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology around. My guest today is the one and only Max Okato, who is a pastor speaker and bestselling author who, in his own words, writes books for people who don't read books. I love that tagline. Max's books have sold more than 150 million copies in over 50 languages worldwide. And he currently serves as a semi-retired pastor of Oak Hills Church in San Antonio, Texas. His latest book is Tame Your Thoughts, Three Tools to Renew Your Mind. and transform your life, which is the subject of our conversation. Oh, man, I love Max Likato. I got to know Max a few years ago when I think his publicist reached out to have him on the podcast. I was kind of blown away that Max Lekato wanted to come on my podcast. Come to find out he's a big fan of Theology Narah, which I'm still blown away at. So, yeah, as you'll see, Max is one of the most kind, gentle, humble, and wise people you will ever talk to you. So please welcome back to the show, the one and only Max Lekato.

MaxoClearo. Welcome back to Theology and Raw. I think this is your third time being on. So I love that we make this a habit. Every time you release a book, we get to have you on to talk about it. I've been looking forward to this ever since I saw it on the schedule, Preston. Yeah. I've told you before. Can I just tell you again? I think your role in this day, among all seekers, not just evangelicals, but all seekers, is so essential. You convene roundtables. You give us a safe place to hear opposing, opposing, it may be a strong word, just a different slant. And that's rare.

It's just a little too rare. You are the modern-day version of a bar. we can just come in and sit down. I know you appreciate pubs. You're a pub guy. But you allow us to come in and say, okay, now, I don't agree with what most people say about that particular topic. And here's why, and you're respectful, you don't freak out.

And I love that about you. And I've learned listening to many, many of your podcasts, not to freak out. And because we get so protective about our turf, right? But you've modeled that, that there's a safe place for us to dialogue and will be better because of it. So my little, I could go on a lot longer if you want it. But I love you. I love what you do. I still haven't gotten past the modern version of a bar.

I did not see that coming. Draw me a pint, buddy. Draw me a pint. And yet I think I want to make a t-shirt now. Theology in the wrong. Theology in the pub. Theology in the pub. I wrote a blog a while back called Dive Bar Church.

And it's one of those just random, thinking out loud. Here's some thoughts. And it had to do years ago, I was teaching out of Bible College. And to get out of the Christian bubble, I would go to a local coffee shop to prepare for my lectures. that I look around and everybody there is reading their Bible. I'm like, gosh, like, I need to get out of this Christian. So there was this little dive bar right near the Bible college I was teaching. One of those really dark places that you're a little scared to walk into.

And I said, I just need to go out of my way to just be out of a Christian environment. So I went into this dive bar. You know, there was some old leathery bartender behind the bar and she asked for my name. Hey, what's your name? I haven't seen me before. you know, I'm like, Preston, you know, don't tell anybody there. And what do you want to drink? I look up, there's like, you know, Bud, Bud Light and Sam Adams.

I'm like, well, the only respectable choice is a Sam, I'll take a Sam Adams. I didn't go there again for another month. Walk back in and she looks up and says, hey, Preston, Sam Adams. You're kidding. I've been at churches for months on end where people don't know my name, let alone of any basic fact about me. And it just got me thinking like, gosh, sometimes I wish church could be a little bit more like that dive bar. Yeah, yeah, where everybody knows your name. Remember that?

Everybody knows your name. Wherever you know, I do want to get into the content of your book, the latest book, Tame Your Thoughts. Very interesting, very timely and needed in today's world. And I want to get into that. But I, you know, after reading bits of it, I was just reminded how much I love. love your writing style. It's short. It's punchy. It takes no work to read. I read a lot, but I'm actually not a good reader. So I notice when I'm pushing in my reading, I'm doing work, and I notice what I'm being versus being sort of dragged along where it's almost like I'm not

doing, I'm just that the writing is moving me. I'm almost like a passive reader. I'm just being carried along. I just have so many questions. Can you give us some secrets to writing? What are some like big picture, a piece of advice that, or maybe not even advice, but what are some main writing tools that you integrate when you're putting pen to paper? You're very kind to say that. I do love to write. And I think writing is a wonderful craft. I've never really seen myself as a sophisticated or academic writer, mainly because I'm not an academic guy myself. I've just been a pastor. But I did find a niche, and I've always used this phrase, I like to write books for people who don't like to read books. And I get what you're talking

about. Some of the books that have really impacted my life have been hard to read. I think Mere Christianity is kind of a hard book to read. I think it is too. I would read that paragraph and I'd say, what did he say? I had to read it again. What did he say? I don't know if that's my immaturity or anyway.

But I do think I like to think about people who really don't have time to read. I do have time. That's kind of my job. But many people don't, you know. And I think, how could I craft this book and this chapter in a way? way that would grab their attention. They've got 15 or 20 minutes in the morning or in the evening for they're going to bed. I don't have much time with them. And I want to write a book for them, and they don't get in, they'll put the book away quickly if I don't hold on to them.

So I found early on that the journalistic style of brief sentences, punchy sentences, strong verbs, not very many adverbs, tight paragraphs, humor, good stories. Stories are gold, just gold, you know, they, they dress, pull a person along. So those little tidbits are really helpful. When I was in college, like a lot of people, I had to read Ernest Hemingway and the old man in the sea. and I read in some bit of research about it that he wrote and rewrote that over 300 times and that his process, Preston, and said he would begin the morning and write until about

three in the afternoon and then, as you know, he would go to a bar and then he would come back. But rather than pick up where he left off, he would start at the beginning. and he would write as long as he could until he had what he wrote the day before in good shape, and then he would write a few more lines or paragraphs. Then he'd go to the bar, and he kept coming back, and this took over 300 times. But what he was doing is he was tightening the book. He wanted it to be very concise, real tight, and he had a phrase, I may be misquoting it. I should have looked it up, but I didn't know we're going to talk about this,

Something like no wasted word or no wasted sentence, yeah. And that stuck with me. And I thought, okay, I think I could do that. And so if I do make a contribution in the world of writing, it would be I want to write books for people who don't like to read books. And I want to make them tight and concise so that they can do so. There's an old, I don't know if he was a professor or a journalist, whatever, but Sir Arthur Quillercouch. I think it lived a hundred years ago. He has a phrase that stuck out to me.

He said, murder and he's British. So murder your darlings, meaning there's those pieces in the manuscript that you just love. Yeah. You love. And you have to sometimes murder them. Cut it out. It's painful. It's hard.

But the reader does not need it. You may think they need it, but they do not need it. It's slowing down your prose. And you know what? I think readers can sniff out a hypocrite real quickly. If they pick up that, oh, Lakato's trying to impress me here, they won't go for that. You know, remember the setting here. When a person reads a book, it's very intimate.

When I preach at a church, it's not intimate. There's several hundred, maybe a thousand or more, several thousand in the room. But if it's a book, it's just me and them, or they and me. however I say that. And they've gone to the trouble of finding a chair, turning on a lamp, clearing their schedule, and they're opening the book, and they're giving me the rarest of privileges. They're saying, okay, I'm going to give you 30 minutes, see what you can do.

It's kind of like that. And it's that intimate. And so I need to feel like I'm having a conversation with them. I don't want to come across like I know at all. but I do need to know enough where it's worth their while. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely, yeah. Yeah, it's a healthy balance.

You don't want to not say anything constructive. Right. If you don't know anything, then why am I listening to you at the same time? Having that humility and personalness and authenticity. Absolutely. There's a tone there, you know. There's a tone that says, you know, when the Apostle Paul wrote this in the Greek language, he used a word that meant da-da-da-da-da, that works.

But for me to say, in my great studies of the Greek language, in which I actually made a C-minus in seminary, which is the truth, by the way, you know, there's just a tone in which we can say things that I think Jesus mastered this. I mean, goodness gracious, here's the creator of the universe, but he never was a show-off, never was.

He was accused of a lot, but it was never. of being a know-it-all you mentioned i mean sorry sorry to geek out just on grammar and stuff but a lot of people don't know this like like if you are using too many adverbs or adjectives you're you're it's almost like a crutch or you're it's so much better to get a an active powerful verb that doesn't need adverbs to sort of prop it up absolutely i think mark twain said if you see an adverb kill it uh you know really yeah yeah Yeah. He ran quickly. No. He dashed. You know, he sprinted. You don't need to say the quickly is a bit, is a little lazy. Yeah. Okay. So that strong verb makes the book, makes the chapter read better. And speaking of the same.

Do you have like a thesaurus open when you're writing? Or how do you find those strong verbs? Because sometimes our minds can only think of like one or two or there's probably a whole host of other verbs that exist. be so much better. How do you find those? I always have a struggle with that. It is. Thesaurus or how do you say plural the thorisis? That's all right. Of course, now we can look even on our phone, right, and find the right word. And finding that right word is worth it. It's put, it's that lightning of the lightning bug. It really does pop. And when you can find a word and make it work. I had the same editor forever. I've got a different one in the last couple of books, but she is wonderful. And she would tease me because I tried to turn nouns into verbs. And she would, like the famous one, I said, he pilgrimed his way down the path. And she said,

Max, that's not a, it's not a verb. I said, yeah, but it can be. We can make it that. Wait, I don't mind that. Is that she, that she, did she persuade you not to do that? No, no, no, no. It stayed. It stayed. Okay. It stayed.

If it's too much, okay, so if it's too much, it looks like you don't know your English very well. But if it's strategic, then it's like, oh, he's doing that's on purpose, I think, right? Yeah. Yeah. The only thing that I would add, and I'll talk about this our whole time, by the way. I love it. I do think rewriting is the key to good writing.

and rewriting that manuscript over and over. And you've done this. You're a great writer. And you know that you think you've got the chapter where you want it. You let it sit for the night. You pick it up and you read it the next day and you think, oh, yuck. And so it's the rewriting. And then once you've rewritten it to the point that it nauseate you,

finally you're getting to the point where it's presentable. Yeah. I'm in my seventh draft right now of a book. it's close to being due. And yeah, that rewriting, rewriting, cutting, gosh, I just cut two paragraphs that I was like, this needs to be in here. This has to be in here. And a couple, I always write in community, I always give it to people, especially people

I think will disagree with my conclusion. I want that feedback ahead of time because it's going to come anyway. I might as well get it before. And several people all said, I don't think you need this here. This is not necessary. It's slowing down what you're trying to say. I'm like, yeah, but it needs to be in there. So I murdered my, my darling.

And there are several places where I'm like really reflecting on the seventh draft. I'm like, I don't think this paragraph actually needs to be in here. I have a hard time. I love your short sentences and that those can be, yeah, those are just, they carry your prose along. I have a hard time sometimes with so many longer sentences. Is that just... Well, you know what, Preston, you tackle tougher topics than I do. I mean, to be honest, I'm a devotional writer, right?

I have tackled a couple of kind of heavy-duty theological issues or topics, the Holy Spirit, eschatology, salvation by grace. But most of my books are books of encouragement to lift people. people's spirits to pastor. So a part of that could be that you need longer sentences because you're tackling topics that cannot be dealt with without thorough explanation. Is that a possible? Yeah.

Yeah, I think so. I think the top, yeah, I still think I could, even now as I'm going through an editing and I'm trying to find those adverbs, activate passive verbs. And also another trick I learned years ago from a journalist is the power of having the subject and verb close together at the beginning of the sentence. That's like the engine driving the locomotive. So you can get away with a longer sentence as long as you have subject verb, bam, bam. And that, I don't know, just almost psychological. The reader can find their way in the sentence a lot easier if it's all at front.

But if you have all these, you know, predicates opening the sentence, you know, finally you've had the subject and then you have six words between the subject and the verb you know at the end that that's um much difficult is that yeah is that true as well or i think you're right i think that's the power of that tight sentence uh it helps me if i read it out loud do you do that do you ever try reading it out loud somebody told me that years ago and i haven't yeah i'll do that i'll uh i'll read it out loud and then i will nowadays the computer will have that feature that it reads it to you, you know, it, what's it, what's it called? Anyway, you can, it's not like you're, it's like it's reading the chapter out loud back to

you. And so I get to listen to it. And then I'll always catch something. And then when, when it's, oh, a couple of weeks before it's due, I meet with my editor and my assistant, and the three of us sit in a room and we read it out loud together. and hearing somebody else read it, we always catch things that we had missed. And by then, we've, it's gone through quite a few iterations. But that process of sitting down and reading it out loud is helpful.

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out of a pastoral need, or you just kind of looking at people dealing with, what do you call the inner chatter of your three-pound thing in your head, you know? Two answers to that. One is, yes, what we're seeing in society, the statistics, you know, 42% of all young people say they live under a pervasive sense of sadness. That's just tragic, you know. And 22% say that in the prior six months, in the six months leading up to the survey, they had considered suicide.

So it's just devastating, isn't it, Preston? And that's a season of life that should be full of fun and laughter. And there's a lot of contributing factors to that. But then we adults, we're not doing a lot better. Depression is on the rise. Anxiety is an all-time high. So just seeing the statistics made me think that this whole topic of mental health, We've got to keep talking about it and see if we can make progress.

And then the second answer to your question is I am 70 now, and I'm doing great health-wise. I'm still alert, still active. But I am at that season of life where I'm asking, is there any topic I'd really like to tackle or address while I still can? I'm trying not to be morbid here, but practical, you know, Preston. And that is one of them, because I realized I was ordained back in the mid-70s. And early on, I realized really all I'm doing is trying to help people look at life differently. They change their worldview or their framework. And another way of saying that is I'm trying to help them think, think like Jesus thought,

and think in a way that Christ thought. And so through the years, I developed these three little tools, not all at once, but they're three practical tools. I'm not a therapist, but I do my share of counseling and a lot of hallway chit-chats. And I developed these three tools, and I thought, okay, I want to capture those because I think they work. And so that was the seed, that was the original thought behind the book. I want to capture it while I could, and hopefully it'll speak to the need that's in our society. What are some of those contributing factors you alluded to? Yeah, I have to agree with all the people who put social media on that list.

I mean, it's just brutal. It's just brutal, isn't it? It takes its toll on us, and I consider myself a pretty well-balanced sort of guy, and I have to get offline. I can't take all this bad news coming everywhere. I get on Instagram and I don't know how to get off. I'm just there and I'm there. I get sucked into this dark hole. I really do think, especially for young people, that social media is a major factor.

I think the divisive nature of our culture that we can't, that's why I appreciate you so much, you create a platform where we can have constructive conversations. We have a hard time disagreeing, and we posture ourselves with our fists up real quickly, and it creates a sense of isolation and loneliness. So I would lead off with those two thoughts. I do think there's some about our diet and our health, the way we're lack of exercise. Our bodies are contributing by the way we're not caring for them, to our mental unhealth, but that's a little bit out of my lane, but it seems to make perfect

sense to me. There's a direct correlation between well-being, happiness, depression, and exercise. Yes, sir. No doubt. Yeah, for sure. Well, we're our bodies are at temple, right? I mean, we're integrated human beings, body and soul. And there's a great book by a psychiatrist written 10 years ago.

The body keeps the score. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. But it really resonates with Christian theology, too, I feel like. Again, the integration of body and mind is everywhere in Scripture. Yeah, yeah. And there's so many well-known scriptures about thinking, right? Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind. Romans 12 and verse 2. Such a powerful statement that we can either be conformed by what everybody else is saying. you know, kind of pressed into the mold of everybody else's thoughts, or we can be transformed. And there is a good Greek word, I'm not trying to show off, but metamorpho, that word, which he

get the word metamorphosis. By the renewing of the mind, we're being transformed. We're being like a caterpillar to a butterfly, going through a transition. How does the Holy Spirit do that? Well, he works by shaping our minds, by helping us think in a way that is really healthy. You know, neuroscience, Preston, is on a popular level these days where even a guy like me can read some of these books and appreciate the advances of neuroscience. And, of course, the big one is neuroplasticity, and that is that our brains can be molded or they can be shaped. just because my mother was always anxious. It doesn't mean I have to be anxious. I don't have to inherit.

I don't have to assume that the fact that I battle with lust as a teenage boy, I'll battle with lust all my life, you know, we literally can't change our minds. And the Holy Spirit helps facilitate this as we cooperate with him in learning to tame our thoughts or manage our thoughts in a healthy fashion. Are there some practical ways in which we can do that? Because people that are in their heads all the time, you tell them, just stop it. Yeah, yeah. There's an old Bob Newhart skit, you know, stop it.

But that's easier. You're dating yourself there, Preston. I grew up on the oldies, man. Stamford and Sons. He is. Newhart. Cheers. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, what are some practical ways in which people can do that that are effective? The first one, again, if we're having a hallway conversation, And a guy says, man, I just feel like I'm really in the dumps. I say, well, okay, let's talk about a few things. I say, first of all, you know, just because you have a thought, you don't have to think it. You know, just because you have a thought, you don't have to think it. And that seems like common sense, but it is a new idea for many people.

Just because you're worried about something, you don't have to give in to that worry. You can practice picky thinking. You know, you can say, okay, I'm going to put that passage. from 2 Corinthians 10 to practice here. I'm going to really try to take that thought captive. I'm going to stand guard. I'm going to be the bar room bouncer of my brain, and I'm just not going to think that thought.

So there's a practical step. And then a second step that I think is very helpful, and that is understand the sequence of negative thoughts. The sequence is this. An untruth leads to a false narrative that leads to an overreaction. I call it UFO. An untruth leads to a false narrative that leads to an overreaction. Let me explain what I mean.

So a guy comes into my office and he says, Max, I'm really tempted to flirt with this lady at work and I'm a married man. I've got three kids. What's going on with me? And the 26-year-old version of Pastor Max would have said, Now, you can't do that. Don't do it. Stop it. But the 70-year-old version would say, okay, let's try to figure out why you're doing this.

You're a good guy. You know, you're not a troublemaker. You've got to, you are married, you acknowledge. In fact, you came to see me. That says a lot, right? So where's this coming from? It's probably coming from an untruth. and that untruth might be something like this pretty girl at work.

She looks like a relief valve or an escape. I look at my wife. She reminds me of mortgage payments, you know, and obligations. My three kids, that's just, you know, but I see this pretty young thing, and I think, oh, my goodness. So there's the untruth, friend. You found it. And that untruth is an untruth. It's a lie.

You pursue a relationship with her. It's going to create more chaos than you think. So let's deal with that untruth. And that will lead to a true narrative. The true narrative is you're a human being, but God still loves you. And you're going to be tempted, but he's going to help you get through this. And rather than have an overreaction, like an affair or something disastrous, you could have the right reaction. You learn to lean on Christ, to trust God. So UFO. And then the last one, and I'll be quiet. The last one is uprood and replay. We've got to uproot these thoughts. See your mind as a front lawn. That front lawn has some weeds in it. You've got to go uproot those. You can't just mow them with the lawnmower and expect that they'll be gone.

You've got to uproot them. But in addition to uprooting them, replant. Plant truth. Arm yourself with a dozen, or if that's too much, half a dozen. Good scriptures. Just promises. I can do all things through Christ who gives me. strength or all things work together for the good of those who love him and are called according

to his purpose. You don't have to be a theologian. Just get yourself a handful of practical passages that speak to whatever negative thought pattern that comes after you. And when you uproot those thoughts, when you practice picky thinking, you identify the UFO, then you can plant a truth and you begin to meditate on that truth. So those, those. Those, are the three tools. That's really helpful. Yeah. That's really helpful. You mentioned, you know, I could see you did some research in neuroscience and other studies, which I really appreciated. What are some, in your research for the book,

what are some surprises, some key findings you sort of discovered that really stand out? Yeah, and I loved it, man. And I want to send a shout out to Lee Warren, Dr. Lee Warren, who has a wonderful podcast. I think you've had. on. Yeah, he's fantastic. Lee is a neurosurgeon. If anybody, if you don't know, Lee, he's a great guy. He lives in Nebraska. But he sent me a good syllabus of books he thought I could understand. And I found them to be so very, very helpful. I'd never heard of microtubules. They call them the scaffolding of our brain. And these microtubules are, they call them the scaffolding of our brain, and these microtubules are always being reconfigured to create new thought,

and here's, this is a legitimate word, thought ruts, R-U-T-S, that our brains have these tiny furrows or creek beds or ruts in them, and they come over practice. And as we as we think thoughts, those furrows get deeper and deeper and we create habits you can see me because we're on a zoom I'm wearing a sling because I had a shoulder replacement my right arm is of no use to me my left hand does not know how to brush my teeth because there is no thought rut there's no furrow for it and I've had to create one I've gotten pretty good over the last couple of weeks but I've got a long ways to go. When we learn a language, when we learn a new skill,

when we learn to watch the ball into our glove, you know, when we learn to hit the golf ball, we're creating these good thought ruts. Now, microtubules are what support those ruts. And here's what I learned. Those microtubules, once we set out to begin creating a new thought pattern, we only need 10 minutes, and they begin to work. They begin to be.

So this person who says, I'm 70 years old. I'll never learn to do away with my prejudice. To him, I'd say hogwash, hogwash. You don't have to die a bigot. You can have that change. That can change in your life. And the Holy Spirit has given you a brain that can literally be changed.

It's malleable. And once you decide for that change to happen, you're only 10 minutes away from that change beginning. I think that's exciting. So the older you get, it's still possible to change your brain? This isn't something that can only happen early on? No, no, the older you get, the older you get, the wiser you can become, the more patient you can become. I know we have that concept of people who are old and grumpy and set in their ways. Well, it's because they've gotten lazy.

They've gotten lazy. Yeah. You can keep, you can stay open-minded. You can have deep conviction. I'm not saying don't have deep convictions. But you don't have to be stubborn. And the Holy Spirit who saved your soul is the Holy Spirit who can help you shape your mind. That's, wow, I did not know that.

I thought, okay, wow. You have to put in the work, like you said. Yes, sir. Passively change your being. It's a habit, right? It is. We've all had to develop new habits. But it's when we say we cannot change that we really cannot change.

But when we say, no, the Lord is great. greater than whatever I'm facing. You know, I've got a friend who decided he wanted to become a missionary at age 75. And so he's learning a new language. He moved to Central America. He's learning a new culture. And he was, you know, died in the world American. And he's having the blast.

It would have been easier, yes, had he been a 20-year-old. Right. I get that. It would have a lot more energy, a lot more get up and go. it would have been easier. But you know what? He's doing it. God blessing. And I think it's going to be great. That's really hopeful. That's great. Learning a new language in mid-70s. I barely, yeah. I lived in Brazil, you know, but I was in my 20s when I was learning Portuguese, and it was a challenge. So, hats off to anybody who takes that on later in life. Did you learn Portuguese? I did. I did. Yeah.

Can you still speak it? Yes, I still speak it. Yeah. I'm not very far into the conversation before the Brazilian picks up on the fact that my vocabulary is pretty, is barely out of the first grade now. I've forgotten a lot. But that was way back in the 1980s, Preston. And from 83 to 88, we lived in Brazil. You were in Rio for eight years. I knew you were down there. I didn't know it was so long.

Yeah, I was there a long time. Two of our three kids were born there. And I left my heart there in some ways. I love the Brazilian people. love the Brazilian Jaitu, they call it, kind of the way of life. Yeah. Just the people are so, so warm and so friendly. Yeah.

That's on my bucket list. I've never been to, I've never been to South America. You've been all over in Europe. Yeah. I've been all over. Yeah, I've never been to South America. Actually, so in January, me and some buddies are hiking Patagonia down in. Are you?

Yeah, I think is Argentina. So that'll be, it's a fifth, by 50th birthday. Didn't you study in Edinburgh? Aberdeen is that what? Aberdeen. Aberdeen, yeah. I lived there for three years. My wife is born and raised in France.

Yeah, we've been all over Europe, been to most, I think every continent, Middle East, Russia, Australia. I haven't spent much time in Asia. I've been to Singapore, but I've never been to Australia. I've always wanted to go, and I've never been to Japan. I'd love to go to Japan. And, of course, right on the tail end of saying, you know, you can do anything as you get older, I will say those long flights are not as easy as they used to be. Well, you, so I, you know, I fly a lot. So I have, like you do, I don't know if you do it much anymore, but, you know, I get, I have a pretty high status.

You get bumped up, yeah, yeah. So I get bumped up. And I got my first, my first complimentary upgrade on an international flight from the UK to Salt Lake City, a 12-hour. flight in that first class yeah um now i was working on my book so i didn't even push the it's one of those where it lays down into bed don't say you'd work the whole way i worked 10 hours straight i looked up but i but it was great it was like an office i had all my books out i got you spread out and it was protected no interruptions yeah oh but that makes a big difference those those big seats it does it does it does i went to scotland i know we're way off topic here so i'll get back on it but

It's a couple of buddies, and we went to Scotland on a golf trip here before last. I love the U.K., anywhere in the U.K. I love. Yeah, me too. And this poor guy, he had torn a quadricep about a month prior, and I still gave him a hard time. He's a physician. He could have afforded to go first class, or at least go business class. But he was so stingy. He pinches his pennies, so he went coach, and he had a torn quadricep.

And I said, I'm not going to feel sorry for you one bit, buddy. No, it does make a huge difference. So you cover several specific areas, anxiety, less, guilt, fear. Yeah, we'd love to almost walk through all of those. The anxiety one, that seems to be a huge one these days. It's everywhere, yeah. Everywhere, yeah. Yeah, once I laid out the three tools, then I said, okay, what are some, you know,

I usually write a 12 or 13 check. chapter book. That's it. So what are nine or 10 areas that I've really seen people struggle? I think most of us have a kind of a dominating thought loop that'll really pull us over. It comes at us every day. Maybe it's a weakness that we have. For some, it's lust, for some it's greed, for some it's feeling overwhelmed with life. But I would put anxiety right there at the top. I think anxiety is really taking its toll on us. So I did. I dedicated a chapter to trying to. I mean, the other ones, the other ones seem to be pretty perennial. Last is, that's been there from Genesis 3, right? I mean, and obviously anxiety has too, but it seems like that, I mean, you tell me, it seems like

that that that's one of the areas it seems to has really exponentially increased. Would that be correct? It is. It is. And, um, Again, the research on this is saying that we're at all and all time, that anxiety is as high now as any time since World War II. Wow. And some of the helpful research I did about anxiety, really a word picture that helps me is that anxiety in and of itself is good. To be anxious about getting a deadline met, to be anxious about making sure our kids are, you know, safe. That's good. That's healthy. It's that part of our brain, I think it's pronounced the amygdala. It's that walnut-shaped part of the frontal lobe of our brain that alerts us to potential danger. And so that's good. When it becomes unhealthy, Preston, if I understand correctly, it's when it just doesn't turn off. It's like a house alarm that just keeps blaring. You know, and you can't get it to turn off. And that's when healthy anxiety becomes destructive anxiety. And being able to interrupt that is a really important, an important part of life.

You know, according to Kindle, you know, the app that allows us to read our Bible with a device, the most underlined verse in the Bible is be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and petition with Thanksgiving, let's your request be made known to God. I would have guessed John 316 or the 23rd Psalm not be the most underlined passage. But now that I've thought about it and it kind of lived with this topic, I can see why people turn to Philippians 4 for help in dealing with anxiety. What's the root cause of anxiety? I mean, you mentioned social media.

My thought is it's this constant exposure to ongoing world affairs to politics, the threat of nuclear war. I mean, all these things that seem front and center. Would that be accurate? And then how do we be informed without being crippled by being in? Great question. Great question. So I think there are two or three good answers. You just nailed one of them.

And that is the barrage of information that we're living with. My parents lived in a time that, to be honest, is more difficult than mine. My dad was born in 1914. And so he was exposed to World War I. He lived through the Depression. He lived and was a part of World War II. the Korean War and then Vietnam. I mean, what all did he see in his lifetime?

But I would argue that what I've been exposed to in my lifetime is more than what he was exposed to. The news for his day was limited to a 30-minute segment each evening, whether he wanted to watch it or not, right? And that was once the television came into the house. The news for you, the news for me pops up every time I have a smart do. device in my nearby. We had terrible floods in South Texas. And everybody around the world heard about the terrible floods in South Texas. Now, 100 years ago, that was not the case. And now if

something happens in China, I will hear about it. So you get this sense that the world is just fragile, cratering about to fall under. And then I would add one more thing. And that is change. The world is changing so fast. And you've read that statistic that the world has changed more in the last 30 years than in the prior 300. I think that's a pretty good case. You make a case for that. We barely learn to use a fax machine and then it's outdated. And then we learn to do emails and then we find no you're supposed to be texting.

And then we learn how to work on a computer. And I still don't quite understand what AI is, Preston. But now that's the thing. You know, we cannot keep up. And so all the change and the bad news, it's taking its toll on our brains. What are some practical ways in which we can be informed without being overly informed? Yeah. Yeah, I think quotient, manage your input.

Well, I'll probably get in trouble for saying this, but I'm going to say anyone. I don't know anybody who benefits from listening to. to our news channels that are on 24 hours a day, listening to them 24 hours a day. I just don't know anybody who does. I think it convinces you, maybe subliminally, but it convinces you that the world is going over the edge. So, you know, put yourself on a news diet. You don't limit yourself.

It's okay to get informed. But you know when you start to, it starts to affect you. And when you start to get so mad at people, I think that's a good, when you, when you hear that so-and-so running for office said this, and it just makes you mad, you know, you don't need to go there. So, so maybe guard yourself. And then secondly, we do need, we do need professional help. And there's nothing wrong with seeking the help of a pastor or a therapist. It really nothing, that's important, or going to a physician. And if they encourage you to use some medicinal support, that's okay.

That's okay. I've had to rely on sleep aids for many times in my life, whatever reason. That's been a challenge for me. And I'm thankful I had a family doc about 30 years ago to kind of free me up from the guilt of when I need an ambient to take an ambient. And I just do. And then lastly, I do think all of us could benefit from just good. old-fashioned scripture memorization. The Bible is the sword of the spirit. And so find yourself

half a dozen verses. I'll close with this. Often in the middle of the night, I will hear my precious wife. And she's somewhere in between sleep and away, kind of in that twilight spot. And she's saying softly, the Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want. The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want. And I know what's happening. An anxious thought is coming into her mind, and she's just not going to let it. So she fights it back. She pushes it back by quoting the first line of the 23rd Psalm. And she's done that for years.

And she's taught me the power of just turning to Scripture and using a scripture to battle these anxious thoughts. Scripture memorization, and I'm guilty of this for sure, seems to have become a lost art. This, I mean, even when I was in Bible college, I would say 20, yeah, to say 20, 30 years ago, it was just kind of part of your Christian routine. It was. Man, I did a lot of scripture memorization, but man, I have not, it's been a discipline that's fallen out of my life. And it seems to be pretty typical across the board. Is that, have you found the same to be true? I think so.

And why is that? Is it just not being encouraged as much? Good question. I agree with your assessment. I do think people do not memorize scripture like we used to. Why not is a good question. Preston, I don't know if I know. I think I'd just be speculating. I do kind of long for the days when I first got into preaching and I would say, okay, let's all open our Bibles and you would hear the pages opening. I'm a pastor kind of, I'm semi-retired now, so I'm not the senior pastor, but I still preach 20 times a year at our church. And, you know, we have one hour, and we used to have it longer, but we have a 25-minute block for the sermon. And now we put the verses on a screen, and maybe inadvertently in trying to manage the larger

crowds and not getting the children's ministry angry at us by keeping. we've we've created a dependence upon a screen more than just a good old fashioned leather page turning Bible I'm speculating now I don't know there I mean I've heard I'm pretty sure this has been shown in the research that engaging in a physical written text you absorb it much much better than a screen like e-book and I found this to be true I tried to get into e-books years ago, because I was like, this is the way of the future. It's a lot more convenient. I can have a thousand books on my, you know, Kindle or whatever. But I just found when I was doing research,

it just did, I just didn't absorb it the same way than when I had a physical. So now I, I, I almost exclusively do physical books. I highlight the heck out of it. I'm taking notes. The thing is trash, but after I'm good for you, good for you. But I found that I can, I don't know, just even like I can physically remember like, oh yeah, on this page, this, this, this paragraph is over here, I could feel it, where it went as an e-book, it just didn't have the same absorption. Same for me. I'll read a fiction book or I'll listen to an audio version of a fiction book, but I've got to, if I'm wanting to see what Preston Sprinkle is saying these days on this particular topic, I'm going to order a copy, and I always do, by the way. I'm going to order it. I'm

going to have it in my hands, and I'm going to read about exiles, and I'll say, okay, and I'm going to circle that or I'm going to highlight it. Yeah. What is happening in our brain? I'm sure people smarter than you and I could tell us, but there's something happening about those ruts that we're helping our brain, we're implanting knowledge deep in our brain, and it's going to stay there longer. That's helpful. I want to cover at least one or two more of these. So talk to me about fear. Fear, you have a different chapter on fear. That seems to overlap a little bit It does. It does. I'm not parsing the words too much here, but I did want a chance to talk about this feeling of being overwhelmed, where you just feel like the challenges are simply too great, too many, where you feel like I'll never get beyond this sickness or we'll never get out of debt. It's this, or I'll never get, I'll never get, I'll never have a healthy relationship with my children. Yes, they do overlap, but I want to talk about this sense of being overwhelmed with a particular

uphill Mount Everest level challenge. And so I talk about that in the book, and I talk about David and Goliath, the greatest of stories in it comes to facing an overwhelming challenge. And I point out how David was of all the Jews or all the Hebrew nation there in the Valley of Elaw. He was the only one thinking about God. Everyone else was focused on the Philistines. Everyone else was focused on Goliath. But that story is such a treasure to us because David, the only time he referred to Goliath, and that was his challenge, the only time he referred to him is with disrespect, you uncircumcised Philistine, and not politically correct. And yet he spoke about God often. He talked about the armies of the living God. And then he declared multiple times,

the battle belongs to the Lord. The battle belongs to the Lord. Now, he did this long before the idea of mental health or thought management was a buzzword. But he was practicing mental health. He was practicing thought management. Even though he was looking right at the overwhelming challenge of his life, He was saying, but the battle belongs to the Lord. And what I'm hoping to do in this particular chapter of taming your thoughts is talk to that person who's just going through a divorce and she's saying, man, my life will never get better. Or talking to that man who just buried his wife after 50 years and he's thinking, how in the world am I going to live the rest of my life?

I'll never find joy again. It's those kind of heavy-duty, valley, quagmire, deep, dark, out of the depths I cry to you type moments that I wanted to address. A little bit like anxiety, but this is a little more heavy duty, the sorrow, the grief, the weightiness of life. I want to help people because those are the times in which we're sitting ducks to make bad decisions and which will turn to inappropriate uses of alcohol to solve our problems. or to some type of escape to solve our problems and to help us find relief. But that relief doesn't solve the problem. We can cry out to the Lord.

There's a reason there's a book in the Bible called Lamentations. That's because we can lament. It's okay, just lament. Complain all you want to him and air your grievances and turn to God to help you to face these overwhelming challenges. What are some sources of the fear?

I'm thinking family, finances, work, or even going back to our previous conversation, you know, just being just overly in tune with what's going on and being fearful about where the world's going. Are those the main ones? All of those. Well, and I put health on that. You know, when we, as we get older, you know, when you get your 50s, you get your 70s, things just don't seem to click like they used to. I got diagnosed about five years ago with aneurism and ascending aortic aneurism. And in the first three days after the diagnosis, you couldn't have differentiated between me

and a pagan prison. I did not handle it well. I just said life is over. I mean, I just was a mess, and I'm not proud of that. What I am proud of is that after three days, I kind of came to my senses. I was in the pig pen, I guess. I was a prodigal. And I came to my senses.

I said, this isn't the way to handle this. And I set apart some time to earnestly pray and say, Lord, everything belongs to you. And I have a list of things, Preston, written in my Bible, of things that I know will never change. Things like God is still on the throne. His return is still imminent. He still knows my name.

angels still respond to his bidding. I'm still saved by grace. I just made a list of about a dozen things. And when I get really down, I will turn to that list. And that's what I did. I went back to that list. And I said, okay, Lord, you're still in charge. And I sensed his presence in a very supernatural way.

But it was his presence. And I think he helped me in that moment. He helped heal me from fear of an overwhelming challenge. But I'll confess, it took me two or three days to get to that point. Wow. Yeah. I appreciate your vulnerability. That's awesome.

If Max Likato with all your experience is still battling the stuff, I find that encouraging. When people feel too untouchable, it's discouraging. So I'm like, I know I'm not. So if somebody else seems like they're bulletproof. Maybe I should write a book about all the, all Likato failures. That would be a best seller. All right, one more, guilt. You've mentioned several times.

I know you're a big, big grace guy. Every Christian believes they're saved by grace. They believe that. They say it. They affirm it. And yet, how does guilt creep in when it goes directly against the fundamentals of our faith? Yeah.

Well, did you know I got a tattoo, Preston? I think you might have mentioned that, actually. Yeah, I've got a brand new tattoo. And you can't see it right now, again, I keep bringing up my sling, but it's hidden, or I would show it to you, but it's, it's what Jesus said was he hung on the cross to tell us, I, the Greek word, you know, the Greek phrase, it is paid. I tell, I mentioned my tattoo because it was 50 years ago, uh, in March of 1975, uh, that, that a preacher, uh, spoke about grace in such a convincing fashion that he

convinced this wayward drunk to trust Christ to forgiving. And I'm not overstating that case. I come from a family of alcoholics. And I have had on occasion in my adult life to be careful, and I might have to be careful even now to watch it. But I was well on the path, the same path that took my brother, who was an alcoholic except for the last two years of his life. And so I just didn't think, by the time I got to 20, I was such a scoundrel. I just didn't think God could forgive me. I just didn't think that. I believed there was a God or is a God. I believed in Easter. I believed in the empty tomb, but I didn't believe that the Good Friday promise could extend to someone like me. And so, for that reason, I understand guilt. Guilt was sucking me

under and guilt and according to the Bible can lead to repentance can make us better or it can lead to shame and turn us into wrecks well the shame was sucking me under I just I just was battling shame we've all heard it guilt says I did bad shame says I am bad I felt like I was bad that I was just a bad person well that's a lie remember the UFO the untruth leads to a false narrative leads to an overreaction. Well, that untruth said, I am bad, led to a false narrative. I'll never get better, led to an overreaction. I can't even pray.

God won't talk to someone like me. Well, I thank God for that pastor who preached an eloquent but powerful sermon on God's willingness to forgive prodigal children. And I felt the spirit convict and convince me. So I've been acquainted with guilt, but I've come to learn. that guilt is not the way we were intended to live. We were intended to deal with it, deal with it quickly. And we do that through confession.

We confess to God. We may need to confess to a spiritual leader or to someone else. Do that. That's the way we deal with guilt. And then we uproot and we replant. We pull out that I am bad and we replant with, I'm a child of God, I'm chosen by God, I'm seated with God, I'm seated with God in the heavenlies.

Take your own passage. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Take your pick. Take your favorite grace verse and recite it. Make it a mantra. State it over and over. And you'll find yourself moving away from shame and more into a place of peace, a place of peace. And I do.

I talk about that in the book because I do think that's a thought pattern that has to be managed. I have my Titella'sai right here. Oh! That's my first tattoo I got was Tateleusai. I'm falling over. I'm falling over. I knew you had a tattoo. I mean, we've met in person, but I just never did look to see what you're...

And you have one on your right arm, too. I have Psalm 1153. Our God is into heavens. He does what he pleases in Hebrew, my right arm, Titellisai on my left forearm. Those are kind of the twin. almost like twin themes that were fundamental to my Christian faith, the teloside is finished, Christ's work is finished, it's done, it's 100% completed.

I don't need to help him out. I just need to respond with gratitude and obedience. And then our God is in the heavens, he does what he pleases. Yeah. It sounds pretty Calvinistic and I guess maybe that's what I needed for sure in my early days that God is God, I'm not. And so fundamental to being a Christian is recognizing.

that creator-creature distinction. So, yeah, they kind of play off each other a little bit, I guess. I'm so glad to see that. I honestly did not know that. Mine is smaller. Yours is a pretty, yours takes up a job. Yeah, mine's a little showy. That's okay.

But mine is a little bit smaller, but who knows, I may go back and get the big version. I don't personally deal with a lot of guilt except for one area, parenting. I have four kids I would give my life without even thinking for each one of them I love them dearly they're amazing kids and yet there are a few

nights that go by when my head doesn't hit the pillow feeling like I failed as a parent I didn't do the right thing or I did the wrong thing I didn't do enough

or I should have said it this way I should have reminded my kids that I love them which I need to do much more than I'm not a good like words of affirmation. It doesn't come naturally. I feel it in my heart, but I don't always say it. In our final minute or two, can you pastor me in dealing with parenting guilt? I would number one say you're better than you think you are. You're better than you think you are. You're there. I've seen you with your kids. You show up. You're present. You're

involved in their lives. And number two, your heavenly father is carrying this load. You're not. And he takes up the slack. He takes up the slack. And I said number two, but in typical preacher fashion, I'll add number three. Kids are resilient. They're forgiving.

They know you love them. They do. And the older they get, the more they realize no parents are perfect. and each child will go through that time when they think that their dad or their mom is the worst ever. But they come around, they do, and they know we show up, we love them, we provide,

and as for forgiveness, just do the best we can. But God is really their parent. I appreciate that. That's really encouraging. You're a good man. You're a good man. Well, thank you, Max, for being a guest on Theology Raw. Again, the book is Tame Your Thoughts, Three Tools,

to Renew Your Mind and Transform Your Life. if you're watching on YouTube, here is the cover of the book. What number of book is this? Have you lost track? 44. 44. 44. People kept asking me, and I always said, I don't know, I hadn't counted it.

This time I'm going to count. And so I counted them up. Yeah. I go with quantity and not quality. So it's easy. Thanks again, Max. Appreciate you. All the best.

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