Theology in the Raw - Tyler Staton on Pastoring Bridgetown Church, Poetry, and Ministry from NYC to Portland

Episode Date: March 30, 2026

Tyler Staton is the Lead Pastor of Bridgetown Church in Portland, Oregon, where he took over as lead pastor for John Mark Comer. He is passionate about living prayerfully and relationally. Tyler is the author of After Amen, The Familiar Stranger, Praying Like Monks, Living Like Fools, and Searching for Enough. This interview was recorded in person in Portland Oregon, so if you’re listening to this podcast, you might want to pop over to the YouTube version so he can see us hanging out in person.Sign up for Exiles 26! April 30 - May 2 in Minneapolis! https://www.theologyintheraw.com/exiles26See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

I love the Bible. And it is such a great privilege to have weaseled my way in to a vocation where I get to study and unpack the Bible and have insights on my own that I get to share with people as such a staggering gift. It all feels like so much fun. I regularly pray and I'm just like, God, thank you so much that, I don't know, I get to tell stories about Jesus. And someone, like, keeps food on my table for that. That's amazing. You know. Hey, friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology to Rahm.

My guest today is Tyler Staten, who is the lead pastor of Bridgetown Church in Portland, Oregon, where he took over as a lead pastor for John Mark Homer. He is passionate about living in prayerfully and relationally. Tyler is the author of After Amen, the familiar strange, praying like monks, living like fools, and searching for enough. Those are all different books, not like one really long, weird title of a single book. I've never met Tyler before this interview, but I've always heard amazing things about him from people that go to the church, from people that know him personally. And I was just really blown away at his wisdom, his humility, and his intentionality.

This is a really thoughtful conversation. Really loved hanging out with Tyler. This interview, and we did hang out, this interview was recorded in person in Portland, Oregon. So if you're listening to the podcast, you might want to pop over to the YouTube version so you can see us hanging out in Portland, person. Okay, please welcome to the show for the first time. The one and only, Tyler Staten. I want you to convince me why I should read poetry. I mean, the Bible is one-third poetry. Fair enough, fair enough. Most of it is poetry. He's probably reading it. Yeah, I do read a lot of poetry, actually. Hebrew poetry. I can tell you why I read poetry. Okay. If you want to start there.

I discovered poetry as a form of prayer when I, I don't know if you know, I went through cancer at the most advanced stage a couple years ago. Really surprising. I'm like one of the, I'm the kind of person that errs on the side of like eating too healthy, you know, and those, so it was, I wasn't a great candidate. And I have no one on either side of my family who's gone through cancer. So it wasn't genetic. It was just so random. The very specific diagnosis I had it's too complicated to explain medically bad, two tumors in my stomach. And my oncologist even, it's just like, I've never actually seen anyone get this before. It was the first time in his medical career. And so I ended up, because I was thankfully young and had a relatively healthy

medical history, he just said, hey, I would recommend that you go through the harshest treatment and I'm giving you one right now, chemo-wise, because I think we can essentially destroy this, and you can go on living in normal life. But if it spreads, your years might be limited. So do you want to do that? I was like, yeah. He was like, all right, it's going to knock you out.

And going through that journey, which was six months long for me, it was very difficult for me to think clear. and I was used to interacting with God through prayer. And so I began to write poetry as a form of prayer because it was just a concentrated use of language. And I slowly would form what I wanted to say to God each day. So that was when I started writing poetry. But I'd read poetry for, I don't know, three or four years every night

when I was going to bed, it's the last thing I do is I'll read one. poem and I should have tons of different books of poetry a lot of them Christian poets not all but the reason is because I think that the art of poetry and I'm someone who words mean a lot to me so the art of crafting words is meant to train us to see to see reality and I think that's what prayer is supposed to do to you also so a poet is someone who sees a fish jump in a pond and then just sees like a whole world of meaning and the ripples that are left there. And to read poetry is to try to become trained in seeing the supernatural behind the veil

of the natural in the world, in my view. And so I began to read poetry and I would just whisper the same prayer every night like, God teach me to see and ultimately live like a poet in. in the numbered days I've got. And so then I think it became more natural to me to start crafting poetry as like, okay, I can't seem to think very clearly, conversationally. Let me try to just,

and I didn't intend for those poems to ever see the lot of today. My wife was the only one who ever read a few of them. And so, long story short, I, through my publisher coming to me saying, do you happen, we're interested in publishing a book of poetry because we don't have anything like that. Our cat, like, you know, anyone who writes poetry? And I actually connected my publishers some other friends

because it felt like a secret between me and gone. And then several months later at another invitation, I ended up letting the cat out of the bag. Like, actually, I started, I write a poem every day as a prayer practice. So the book came about through forming a coherent frame around those poems is framed around the seven signs in John's Gospel. Oh, okay. And it's like a 50-day devotional through.

What's it called again? After amen. After amen. So that's the idea is like what is, I think prayer, there's a lot of different ways that prayer is powerful and effective in the world. But I think like the slowest growing, sweetest tasting fruit of prayer is ideally who it makes you after all of your amens. And that's the same with the fruit of poetry. you're like, who is it supposed to make you? So anyway, all the poems in the book are actually just lifted off my journal.

Because I was like, I'm okay doing this, but it's felt holy. So I don't want to be assigned the writing of poems for the sake of publishing a book. I'd rather you'd be like, look, I'll give you what I got, but this is what we got to go with. And I wrote like devotionals. They go alongside a book. I don't know a book like this in the evangelical world. No, that was some of what made it really fun, is my publisher kind of let me explore creativity that I often don't get to as a pastor. And I honestly wanted to try to offer a gift to pastors as well, just a subtle way to say like, hey, you don't have to only play one note.

You know, like write sermons and then write sermonic books. you can be an artist and a creative who sees God in different, sees and interacts with God in different ways in the ordinary of your life and then offers the overflow of that to the world in different mediums. And so anyway, it was a gift to get to do. I got to collaborate with a musical artist I really respect that's releasing an EP that companions the book and as part of the audio books. So it's a whole like,

creative exploration that I've gotten to do. So anyway, that was really fun and so different than anything I've ever done before. You're, I mean, for those who don't know, I'll just say, I mean, you're obviously a very incredibly gifted communicator speaker. Thank you. You also have written a few books. Like, do you have, do you feel like you're, most people would say they're primarily a speaker, but who also writes or primarily a writer who also speaks?

where do you see yourself? Do you love both crafts equally? I do. You know, I love, I would say I love being a pastor and I love being a writer at this stage in my life. When you say pastor, so not just a teacher, but a pastor. Yeah, I think my life looks different as a pastor now than it did in New York just because the church I pastor now in Portland is about three times.

the size congregation, and that changes what I'm able. You know, I was in the hospital with people a lot more in New York. I was celebrating the birth of children a lot more in New York, you know, those things that maybe you classically associate with the pastoral life. And now I'm mainly pastoring the 30-ish full-time pastors on our staff at Bridgetown, where I lead in Portland. But when I say I love being a pastor, I'm. I mean, I love preaching to my local church. I don't love booking speaking engagements and just popping around. But I don't feel cynical about that vocation either.

It's so much about my life stage. I have three little boys under 10. And I feel really aware that what will matter to me when I'm old is like the books I'm reading them at night and tucking them in. that's what I'll do everything to go back to and that I will forget how I felt that teaching went. That'll never be like reliving that in my old age but I'll be reliving those little ordinary moments. So right now it feels really,

the things that keep me rooted in local are leading a local church and writing books, which I get to do in a very, like for me that happens on Fridays when I'm not working for the church, church while my kids are in school. I like take them to school, go to my favorite coffee shop, right for a few hours, pick them up from school. And so that feels like a different creative

outlet for me that I love, but that doesn't eat into the life I'm trying to live locally. I also feel really sanctified by living in community with a few people from my local church. and living in community with our neighbors, who we know really well through my children's public school. Both of those environments sharpen me and limit me. As a lead pastor, I feel often like it's quite dangerous that since my mid-20s, I've been able to basically order my world. If you ask, like, is that a good recipe for the development of the human soul? I'd be like, no, it's a disaster. And so I think, living in local community as a way, and a really important way for me in my unique story,

to be submitted to the will of others and to surrender control. And that seems to be mostly what following Jesus is. It's like surrendering control. My dog Tank is my best friend. He's a hunting dog that's afraid of guns. He's always down for a walk, and he agrees with pretty much every one of my theological positions. even ones I don't share on this podcast. Tank is getting older like me,

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We're talking about mental health and the gospel. How should the church respond to Immiginal? We're also having a dialogical debate about Christians and war with Shane Claiborne and Paul Copan. And we're also having another dialogical debate between Peter N's and Sandy Richter over the historical reliability of the Bible. We also added a pre-conference addressing how Christians should think about artificial intelligence. We have several experts coming to lead us in that conversation. Other speakers include Dan Allender, Matthew Sorens, Liliana, Reza, Joshua Smith, Chinway Williams, and several others. And of course, worth the price of admission, Street Hems is coming back as well, folks.

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You've got to be Gen Z. And also discounts on groups of five or more. Again, that's April 30th to May 2nd in Minneapolis. Register at Theologyinthera.com. What was it like becoming the lead pastor of a church that had John Mark Homer for years? And, you know, he's well-known, you know, very gifted, became extremely well-known. I feel like last, you know, five, six, seven years before, you know, what was that like, filling his shoes, so to speak, you know?

You know, people ask me that a lot. And I think by the group. grace of God, I never really thought about it. John Mark has been one of my best friends for years. And I think because of that, I was reading the books he was writing regardless as like, hey, my friend wrote another book. And I was reading rough drafts and him saying, will you help sharpen this?

And we were trading ideas, leading churches in secular cities. and so I honestly don't think I was really that aware that his notoriety had grown. I really respected him as a preacher, and he's probably the friend I have that I have the most in common with and the most difference with. Like, we love, we crack up together, love hanging out together, very similar lives, very similar vocations, similar personal habits and rhythms to the way we live our days. And yet our personalities are so different. You know, John Mark is really a perfectionist. He's very still and quiet.

I'm like a total activist and probably would err on the side of doing too much and being okay if half of it doesn't work. Whereas, you know, he would be a... extremely thoughtful and methodical. And we've been shaped by such different church experiences. John Mark in his 20s came out of being a teaching pastor

in a mega church as a really young kid and I was doing youth ministry that looked a lot like after school program work among first generation immigrants living below the poverty line in low-income housing in lower Manhattan. And so just our ministry

backgrounds are so different and we end up in very similar. spots and really hit it off as friends. And so I think I've never felt even a tad bit of competitive or, you know, I don't know, any of that stuff that can poison the well. What I will say is when we, when I ultimately, very surprisingly, to myself at least said yes to stepping into his role at Bridgetown, the church he planted, we both said, all right, man, we're either going to be much better friends or probably not friends anymore, at least in

private at the end of this. Let's do everything we can to make sure we're better friends. And we are. That's awesome. He's, you know, I don't know if I should say this on a podcast, but like we do a monthly call and confess send to one another. We travel and see each other several times a year. We have, you know, just, he's one of my very best friends in the world. And so I think mostly I feel really grateful and honored to get to take care of something that a great friend of mine gave his life to for years. I feel honored that he would trust me with that. That's awesome. Does you guys overlap at all? Like when he, how did it happen? Did he just say, hey, I'm thinking about stepping down Leslie Pasture? Would you want to consider? Yeah, so we, we overlap for only one month

on staff. Yeah. And a lot of this, like, John Mark and I both spent time being mentored by Pete Scazzaro. That's one thing we had in common. And so Pete really helped us write a playbook because also from my time in New York, I know Rich, who took over at Pete's Church and Life Fellowship, he's a good friend. And so I said, well, I know Pete and Rich seem to have done this in a way that's really healthy from founder to successor. So why don't we ask Pete for help and Rich?

and both of them did advise and really help us in terms of how do you create a map where what you desire relationally can come to be. So we got a lot of help in kind of, I guess, the ins and outs of how to see intention become reality. I would imagine, you know, even if, like, say in this instance, like you and John Mark have a great plan and you're totally in line and get to get, you know, there's no competition. Like, it's hard to control their perception of people who, you know, are going to do the comparative thing or like, you know, I've heard of, you know, many churches who have gone through similar transitions, you know, that you have people that leave because they were just, they were more committed to a certain person than maybe the community, you know. Did you have to navigate some of that among the community? Or did they respond really well?

I would say three things to that. one is some people left and some people came so I don't really know, you know, and I guess I felt like personally secure and comfortable with that. Like, yeah, there's a leadership change, and that's going to happen at the church I planted and pastored in New York as well. And there's all sorts of reasons for that. Sometimes it's the dysfunction of the person who leaves. sometimes it's actually God's invitation in their life at that moment of transition or change. Sometimes, you know, there's just all sorts of different reasons. But two, we, the transition was made as the church was beginning to regather from COVID,

which was a remarkable time of transition in general. Like tons of people moved. And so largely I was ignorant to, I was, learning as people were coming back, how long have you been here? And some people would be like 15 years and others be like, I moved here during COVID. This is my first human interaction. So, and then, and then I would say, Bridgetown Church has the great gift of a lot of mature, resilient followers of Jesus. So I think there was less attachment to John Mark. Okay. And we were here to listen to him teach and more like we're trying to follow Jesus this guy was helping me with that

will you continue to help me with that and um and so i think that is a credit to john mark's leadership and a credit to the pastoral staff yeah whose names people know less on earth but no less in heaven yeah and that is a credit just to the favor of God that he's shown the local community. That's awesome. Yeah. I know several people at the church and, yeah, everybody I've talked to is really blown away at your teaching ability, not just as a good rhetorician, although you are that, but just your deep, clear knowledge of scripture and how you're able to, you know, I think you preach for like an hour. Are you servants or your servants are not short, right?

No, I probably need to work on that. Well, no, no, maybe not. In a day and age, and people's attention spans just scientifically is just down. You know, like that, that's a, that's not easy to do. And I guess my question is like, do you have like a photographic memory or something? Because they said it's just the people I talk to there's like, I don't understand how much deep, thoughtful content comes out when it's like, I don't know if you had. I don't know if you have notes or not or like... Yeah, I use notes.

I don't know if I do. You know, one time a friend of mine asked me that once, who's also a pastor, he said, do you think you have a photographic memory? I was like, I honestly don't know. I've never thought about that. I would say this, I love, I love the Bible. And I think it is such a great privilege

to have weaseled my way in to a vocation where I get to, try to stand in between like the ancient wisdom of God that both I believe in as the full authority for my life leading me to the fullest way of living and I'm just genuinely fascinated by intellectually

the Bible is regardless of you think it's like malarkey it is staggering that people were writing the more you learn about it, the more you study it, the more you see the craftsmanship, the symbolism woven. It's like, I'm just constantly, my mind is blown. I cannot believe how sophisticated this piece of literature is.

And so I think to get to study and unpack the Bible and have insights on my own that I get to share with people is such a staggering gift. And I've got a lot of people around me that help me. that helped me and have been helpful to me in studying the Bible and so I guess it just it all feels like so much fun I regularly pray and I'm just like God thank you so much

that I don't know I get to tell stories about Jesus and someone like keeps food on my table for that that's amazing you know so that's how I relate to it I think did

I think this is public regarding the role of women in the church. Yeah. And I've talked to John. It is. John Mark about, okay, yeah, I think he, I don't know. And people don't like labels, and I assume both you and him probably don't like labels, but it seems like John Mark would be on the side of more like a soft complementarian,

male elders, women can teach and preach. And I think Bridgetown's been that way. Yeah. But I think it's, it's. I came in and messed it up. So what, okay, so tell. That's the only, it's literally the only theological nuance John Mark and I aren't entirely aligned on. So what, yeah, so what's your position in, what did you do, mess things up?

I mean, there's a 25-page paper that I wrote that's public on our website, as well as a series of either three or four lectures that I did in re-articulating the church's position. So I just, the only thing that changed is, because women were already teaching and preaching at Bridgetown, I just made it where women could serve alongside men on our elder board, which is our highest governance structure at Bridgetown. Whenever you get into these discussions, you have to articulate a bunch of things, which are levels of clear in scripture, like even the governance model that we hold as a church. and how do we define what an elder is and everything like that. So within our church governance, all that changed was that women could serve as elders at Bridgetown Church. Were the rest of the leaders? How did they go with all the other leaders and pastors of the church?

Did they hold to a variety of perspectives? Or were they totally on board with the change? We went on a journey. So the church I led in New York, held a different position than Bridgetown. And I genuinely think that, like, there are some things which we won't articulate on this podcast that if I had planted Bridgetown Church would be a little bit different. Okay.

And same with if John Mark was still pastoring the church. And while I have had the journey of planting and leading a church, I felt like part of stepping into an existing church was discerning with the Lord, like, I'm not actually supposed to come in and make everything the way that I think it should be. Because I'm wrong about some things, I think, and some things are just preference. And so part of the process of stepping into an existing community is discovering what change would accelerate what God is already doing here and what change might be a distinction. distraction or a deterrent to. And ultimately, I discerned that this was a change that would be good and healthy for the church. And a lot of that was because of my conversation with the existing elders, many of whom were more aligned with the theology of the church that I held in New York.

And I also didn't come in and share that difference, but I was asked it a lot when I showed up because people had gone to the website of the church and been like, there's pictures of women listed as elders. And so it was sort of like people asking me. And so eventually we went about what I thought was a really thoughtful process. I crafted a one-year journey that we went through as elders that involved reading from a variety of perspectives and having theologians visit. one of them, you know, just because you were mentioning him, Nijay, Nijay Gupta was a theologian who was on, which, yeah, I think the labels are unhelpful, but he would align with women serving as elders in a church and he's written a book on that topic and everything. So he came in, we studied his book and his work, and he gave a presentation to defend his position, and then we brought a bunch of questions to him. And we just decided we're not going to make a change.

unless everyone is unanimously. Really? On the side of women should be elders at the end of this one year process. Wow. That was an indicator. And we were there. Unanimous. Yeah.

How many people? Is this 30, 40 people? No, no. This is just the existing elders of our church. Oh, okay. So this was five people. Oh, okay. And then I led our staff through the same process that I let our church through.

and our staff was all there at the end of that process. And there was a clear, thoughtful timeline and then crafted follow-up process where every staff member was following up with their direct manager that they are already relating to closely about their own wrestle questions. We tried to craft it where it was like, not like I'm sitting down an individual with everyone, like, did I talk you into it? You know, but where people could actually go on a journey. And then we invited our church on that.

the same journey. You had a Nijay and he had Gary Bershears, right? Yeah, Gary was, so Gary would have been on the other side. Yeah, yeah. So people were more convinced of Nijay's. That was one aspect of the year long. I know Gary's listening. Yeah. I know you know Gary, he's a good friend. And Gary, Gary is the best. He was the absolute best. Yeah, Gary reads my sermons every single week and offers feedback. And so that he would be one of those people that help sharpen my biblical imagination and helps me steward the public office that is teaching at this local church that I teach at because lots of people happen to listen to it. And I think, and other churches shaped and influenced by it. So I think this is a gift that the Lord has given me to steward thoughtfully. And that

means I want to be really intentional about making sure that I'm not the only one behind the biblical theology that we're putting into the world. So it was a community decision among the leadership. It wasn't like you came in and said, like, all right, here's where I'm at and here's where you need to go. I love how you approach that. How did it go over with the congregation? Because honestly, I think culture is more important than theology in this.

particular area, because you can have an egalitarian position and have pathways that are hidden in your church, which is really hard for women to actually serve and express their gifts. And that's what this is about at the end of the day. And then on the other side, you can hold a church governance model where there's only men serving is in an eldership role or in a headship position, ultimately, because of your reading of Genesis or some of the New Testament letters of Paul or whatever it may be, and actually have a profoundly dignifying and empowering culture toward women expressing their gifts in the church. And that was what was important to me, is that the culture we have as a church where everyone, regardless of male or female, is, number one, recognized and honored in their maleness and femaleness,

both of which bear the image of God in mostly mysterious ways that we just get our ourselves in trouble with when we tried to define them exactly. And then where there are clear pathways where men and women can express their gifts with increasing authority in the life of this congregation. And Bridgetown was that type of church and becoming increasing in that type of church when I arrived. And so I didn't feel like, wow, something's broke here that needs to be fixed. It was more like I was invited by our existing elder board to share my perspective on this particular bit of theology. And, you know, I'll say this. One of the great gifts of doing it was getting to, I think, just take some of the pressure out of the decision and articulate things like I just articulate.

Like, hey, I think that we live in such a volatile culture now that people would want to frame this as like, are you an oppressor or an empower? Are you progressive? And it's just like, hey, I think those are almost always false categories. And so let's just, we have to be people that are mature enough to wrestle with God's word and what it means is steward it well together in community. and everywhere I go to teach, there's, you know, some woman who will approach me and say, thank you so much for making these teachings public. I'm in seminary now studying, and I never knew I was allowed. You know, and so I would say I don't have any desire to change any other church's theology or governance model.

I'm not on a mission trying to plant a flag. for a particular theological nuance that I might stand before Jesus one day and say, like, hey, I'm sorry I got that one wrong. I'm going to say that about some things. What I have a, what I celebrate is, wow, there's women out there teaching or studying scripture robustly who thought because of a misconception that they weren't allowed or something like, and that's beautiful. How did it go with the congregation? incredibly well yeah again i'm i'm sure there was a minority of folks who said this is a breaking point for us but that would have been very very few and mostly the congregation showed a ton of maturity in not making it more volatile than yeah hey in our culture as a church we're just deciding about

one leadership role right we're not this is a about anything more than that. They've already had women, teachers and preachers. And, you know, I think the jump, for like a better term, is from, like, complementarian

to soft complementarian is almost bigger or more hard for people to accept if they're resistant than from soft complementarian to ego. Some version. Yeah. Yeah.

I agree. I agree. It just comes down to the reading of a few pretty confusing texts Yeah. Yeah. And I would personally say, I think this is the, I don't know, big hot topic theological question that there's the most ammo for on either side. You know, there's, the Bible says a lot. Yeah. And there's some, the Bible says things pretty clearly that either side can use to say, you know,

and so it's a lot about your biblical lens and what, what you think renewal ultimately, look. like Genesis to Revelation. I just came out with a book on the topic. I don't know if you know. Oh, I didn't. And I started without a view. I was raised complimentarian. Yeah.

Started researching several years ago. And I just want to know what the text leads, you know. Yeah. And I landed in a position, you're a mutualist position. Yeah. Based on just the exegesis. It wasn't like I was like, you know, I know some awesome women teachers and they needed, you know, it was just like, I just want to know what these ancient texts in the old.

the New Testament say about this topic. And as I just, the more I study, the more I just saw much more evident. And there's good arguments on most sides, but I saw cumulatively more evidence for women serving in all positions of leadership. So yeah, yeah, that's why I'm interested in. I even, you know, John Mark, yeah, I think he's okay to be saying this publicly. I sort of the manuscript. He really enjoyed it. I think he said, like, I'm still not convinced, but it's the most convincing argument I've heard so far. Yeah. So, yeah. But yeah, like you said, like it's, it's a, we're dealing with, like you said, there's, there's, there's things in scripture that are very clear, things that are less clear, and things are

just really complex. And just so happens that some of the key passages that are relevant for this topic, really just complex, ex genetically, you know, Greek words that are never used elsewhere, syntax, it's difficult. Yeah. You know, Paul saying things that like, gosh, but you just said that two verses earlier, and now you're saying this, like, what's going on? Right, trying to parse out in Paul's letters. When is he replying to questions and we don't have the correspondence versus when is he just writing his thoughts about it? Yeah.

Yeah, it is really complex. Yeah. Oh, that's awesome, man. But I love studying it and feel really grateful to have gotten to lead a church on a mature and peaceful journey. And I arrived the same place as you for the same reason. reason is you. Like, I just happen to think this is ultimately where Scripture directs us. But I don't think everyone who submits to the authority of Scripture and is as fascinated by the

Bible and is as rigorous and intentional in studying it as me must land where I do. And I do believe that about some things, like the Lordship of Jesus for instance. Kind of a big deal. Yeah, like, I think, like, there's a big deal. Yeah, like, I think, like, there's actually no responsible reading of scripture that doesn't get you here but that i i wouldn't apply that to this and so i think man we've got to be mature enough to know like what do you yeah what do you hold with open hands and say you know what i've been entrusted with is the leadership and shepherding of this local community and so i'm comfortable yeah leading and shepherding this local community into this and offering that publicly so that anyone else

who would be helped or served by it can be helped or served by it. How do you manage, how many people come to Bridgetown, that 3,000-ish, 4,000, something like that? There's a lot of people. How do you, being somebody who is relational, who is pastoral, who loves to talk to people, how do you manage your time with so many people wanting your time?

And yet, as you said, you know, father, you know, raising my three boys and being a good husband is my priority and, you know, not overworking myself. Like, there's only so many hours in a week. Like, how do you manage people wanting your time, just not being able to give time to probably the majority of people that want time with you? That is a complex question. I've landed in, I think the answer has to always change based on opportunities, limitations and life stage being one of those limitations. Yeah, I would say at this stage, the boundary that I've discerned is I can, so I've, and it's taken me a few years to define this, but I feel like I can be.

pastor to our elders, our board members, and our staff. And that collectively makes of about 50 people. Yeah. That's the size of a first century church, right? I was a pretty big first century church. Sorry, I would say our elders, I could be past to our elders, our board members, and our executive leadership staff, which is only myself and two other people. I misspoke. So it's about 20 to 30 people. And when I say pastor, I mean like conversational and deeply process what's going on in your life, be present for you in tragedy or triumph, you know, so on and so forth. I can be priest to our whole staff, which means be there in big moments,

in the sacramental type moments in one's life. Hey, if you're suddenly in a medical emergency and your child's life is hanging in the balance, I don't want you to feel that I'm too busy to show up in the ER and pray. And I can be preacher to our congregation, so I don't do pastoral meetings with our congregants right now. Okay. Yeah. And that's largely, but, you know, I do coach my son's basketball and baseball team, and I do have time to be a real,

neighbor and friend to my neighbors to actually like have dinner with my non-believing neighbors. And I do participate in what we call Bridgeline Communities, which is our small group structure. Okay. And I am really rooted in the lives of a few people from our church, not all of whom I hand-selected, but just I'm trying to live the life that we're calling other people to live. And I feel like I'm actually at my capacity. Yeah. Another thing that really helps me is I honestly believe there are a number of pastors on our team much more gifted in pastoral counseling than me. I am not very good at it. I was just sometimes that I'll be like, I know you think you want to talk to me, but it will only be disappointing. I'm actually best from a distance, you know. And so I think we have some really gifted pastoral counselors. to be able to say, can I connect you with Gavin or Bethany?

They will be so much more helpful to you in hearing you and helping. Do people pretty much understand that or do people still feel kind of like let down, you know? Some of both. Yeah. You can't control. I mean, you're doing, which sounds like, I would say, it sounds like you're making very, very wise, healthy decisions. You're pouring out as much as you can with the people that are, um, the people there in front of you,

but you just can't do it all, everybody. Yeah, I try to make wise, I mean, and I try to just articulate that to people clearly the moment that I'm asked, not like string someone along, like, well, maybe I'll make an exception email, my EA or something like that. I try just to explain, like,

this is the current limit in my life. Yeah. Because I just, each time I've exceeded it, I've ended up letting everyone down involved. And so I just keep, can't, I can't be that to you right now. And a lot of people understand, some people are disappointed. And I think I've made peace with like,

Jesus doesn't feel the need to try to meet everyone's expectations that they project upon him. He seems to be comfortable honoring his limits and saying yes to what he discerns is the father's invitation in. And that's what I'm trying to do the same. That's awesome. I'm much worse at it than Jesus. I'm trying to do the same. I imagine there are similarities and differences between the culture of New York City and Portland. Both are very, very secular, very on the front edge of society.

I also heard like, well, you said it, I think, offline. Like, you can not have a car in Portland in New York. or like it's a very kind of like local people live, maybe in the suburbs like where we're at right now, but I mean, if you're in the city, you live in your community, it seems like. Yes. Like New York City.

Yes. What are some of the similarities and differences of doing ministry in these two cities? It feels familiar in that, like when I teach, I'm assuming there's always people there who think the Bible is neither here nor there. Really?

You know, and so I'm assuming, I'm always going to have to make some type of emotional appeal or some type of explanation of why this ancient Near Eastern text is being talked about at length and viewed as a lens through which I glimpse who God is and who I really am, and what my redemption and the renewal of all creation looks like. and so I think teaching feels familiar. Okay. And probably a very intelligent audience, I would assume.

Yes. You can't make sloppy statements or... Yeah, or like cheesy anecdotes leading to a moment. You know, just people that would be... Would err on the side of being emotionally cold and cynical. Okay. And, yeah, more highly intellectual. and I would say

the biggest difference and another is just in culture like you said Portland's unique because it's a small city but it's constructed very compact for in comparison with other small cities and it was done so intentionally I don't know if this is true

but I've been told it's the most cycled city in the world outside of Copenhagen really? Yeah just it's quite common compact as a city so you can live in your neighborhood like you live in New York, but have like a small backyard. You know, so it's interesting in that way. And I would say it feels familiar in that it doesn't win me any popularity contest to be a Christian

or to be a Christian pastor. You know, my parents live in Charleston, South Carolina. I never lived there, but they've been there for 10 years now. And, like, if I'm out and about visiting them and get up to chatting to another parent at the playground or something, and they're like, what do you do? They might be like, that's interesting. Tell me about your church. Or they might be like, thank you for doing the Lord's work. But in Portland, people, the common response would be like, really?

So you're a Nazi. still do that, you know, or like, oh my gosh, I thought you were normal and now I'm slipping away, you know, it'd be, it's definitely more of a polarizing nugget to drop, but not, it's never making someone immediately want to bring me closer. And difference is, I would say the big difference has to do with ethnic and cultural diversity and therefore ideological diversity. Okay. So New York is going to lean more left politically, just like Portland does.

But Portland's a lot more of an echo chamber ideologically. And I don't just mean in terms of politics. I mean, in every way. Because a smaller place, it's the whitest city in the U.S. of major cities. And so you have a lot more people that share a common cultural background. who are ideologically aligned, whereas in New York, you still have the same, like, there's no one is like, I wonder if New York City is going to swing Republican or Democrat on the next election. But you have people from all different parts of the world. You have a massive population of different people of Hispanic heritage, which means you have a massive Roman Catholic backbone to people's ideology and thinking.

and so on and so forth. And so there's, even while it's left politically, there's a lot more ideology, ideological diversity. And the other thing is, this is going to sound strange, but in Portland, there's a lot more dark spiritual practice. I've heard that from several people.

Yeah, there's just... Like the occult or wicked stuff? I mean, just all... Yes, both. Okay. And that wasn't really something in New York it was more just like I'm just a hedonist

right yeah and in Portland there's a lot more spiritual aggression I would say and that's been a new thing to interact with and I don't mean that's like something I'm sensing in the air while I'm walking around I mean like people

doing seances in the park across the street from my house on certain evenings like that where you're just like wow you guys are just really trying to practice dark magic in public and those types of things. So I would say that's been new and interesting interact. How would you describe the culture of Bridgetown, the church, the people? Is it pretty diverse, theologically, politically, even like where people live, socioeconomic?

I would say it's pretty diverse socioeconomically. it's equally as diverse as our city ethnically. Which isn't very much? Which isn't very much. Though I'd like to see us... I mean, I would say it isn't very much for a major U.S. city. It is a lot for the U.S. in general. Or for just like, if you did statistics on the American church generally,

we'd be like, oh, a multicultural church. But I think I would really love to see us grow in looking more like the multicultural kingdom of God than our city does. I'm from Boise, so we're wider than you, I think. Yeah, I'm sure. I've never been there, but I would imagine that is the case. And the church is much more generationally diverse than the church I pastor in New York. New York is like Lord of the Flies.

You know, like it's a bunch of young people. And Portland, because it's more livable city, you've got people at every stage of life. And I can't remember. Theologically, I would say, Bridgetown is diverse in terms of ecumenical background. Okay. The way people grew up relating to the sacraments, the charismatic, of the spirit, things like that. And yet we are, I think that if you were to say,

if you were to come to Bridge Town on a Sunday and say, this is what I find unique here, I think it would be the robust practice of word and spirit. Okay. So it would be the genuine honor, respect, and love for the Word of God. the ancient way of sacramental spiritual practice and the like actual expression of hearing God through the manifest whisper of his spirit and the free function of what I think is a very thoughtful

and healthy expression of prophetic ministry or praying for miraculous healing or something it feels like there's a mature expression of some of the New Testament gifts that I think tend to be not practiced at all, or the main event. Like the thing we're doing is hoping God will do something that we tell stories about one day. Right. You know, we want to witness a miracle. What does the prophetic ministry look like? I close every one of my teachings with a member of our staff or a trusted lay leader coming up.

and praying come Holy Spirit, just ancient prayer of waiting. Then in quiet, it's very Quaker. And then offering invitations prophetically just based on that time of waiting. So. Invitations for people to stand up? People to come forward. Yeah. And it can be like a straight up word of knowledge. Like I think there's someone whose first name is Will.

And you grew up in the Czech report. public and you've recently, your wife has recently miscarried. And I think God wants to meet you in that grief today. Does that align with anyone? We raise your hand to, man, it felt like today when we were teaching on the theology of the body that God really wanted to heal shame for those who grew up in a church culture that you were taught to repress your every desire. And today, God is calling some of your bodily desires good and actually a reflection of his passion and his image. So if that's you, which you come forward.

And that could be 50 people coming forward to receive prayer. But I think we have a lot of trust from our congregation because we don't hype any of it up. Okay. Like, we don't even play music underneath it. This is just like everyone's standing in silence and then we're inviting people forward and then we start playing music afterwards and singing in response as we pray for folks. And then the other thing is we acknowledge when it doesn't connect with anyone. Okay.

So is Will here from the Czech Republic? Amazing. Wow, Will. Come forward. Or no, no will. Okay. No problem. Okay. We don't have no one.

We all have access to this. the God's voice and none of us has a perfect redone God's voice. And so if we try to love someone by taking a risk and miss the bull's eye, and that big deal. We can all continue on trying to hear God, love one another. That's good. That's good. Yeah, aren't you in the middle of a series on sexuality? Yeah. How's that going? As of today, it seems to be going quite peaceably well. By the time that this podcast is public, I very well may have had a Freudian slip and been canceled on the internet. Tell me about what brought about why you wanted to teach on this and how are you going about it. What are you talking about? How many weeks is it? I would love to, because I get asked all the time

from pastors. Sure. Should I address this from the pulpit? If so, how to do it. And all I do is tell stories of pastors who I think have done it well and say, well, here's just no one way to do it, but here's how some have done it well. So I'd love. Yeah, tell us about. The reason that I felt compelled to do it is because what I imagine this is your reason for why you'd want to write books on the topic. But I don't just, if you were like, what do you really want to have a teaching series on? I wouldn't be like the most controversial theological issue of our time. You know, but I think if you were to say, what is the one,

biblical question that will most shape our moment in church history. I would say the question on human sexuality. It's the defining theological issue of our time. And I think if you were to say, what's the one biblical question that will most determine if the people in your church are, if and how they are following Jesus 10, 20, 30, 40 years from now? It's probably how they understand. biblical theology around human sexuality. And then it's also, I think, been really mishandled by the church generally. And I don't actually mean that in a super provocative way.

Like, we have hurt the gay community. I think the church in lots of ways has hurt a lot of people who are same-sex attracted or identifies gay or whatever your chosen terminology may be. But I mean, I think the church has just mishandled the biblical story around human sexuality in such a way that even when you hear someone articulate the, a like accurate, thoughtful, robust biblical theology around the traditional view of sexuality,

which I would hold to, one man, one woman in a marriage covenant. It always sounds like an apology or a concession, not like a compelling proclamation. And I'm like, well, if we're talking about the gospel of Jesus Christ, that's at least a yellow flag, you know, hey, if the way that I'm sharing this good news doesn't sound good to me, there must be something I'm not grasping and maybe even something deeply personal that I'm not reckoning with in terms of Jesus's view of my own sexuality or his invitation to me. So I think I just felt a God-given responsibility to give a shot at helping people. And I think mainly I'm doing it because I think that there's a lot of people,

I feel quite confident, statistically speaking, that there's a lot of people in my church community who are attracted to the same sex and don't know how to relate to God in the midst of that, share with one another, don't know what to do with that part of their lives, and don't feel particularly seen or known in the family of God because they have this thing that is buried or confusing or feels like, if I talk about it that it's almost all you see about me, if I don't talk about it, then I'm keeping,

I'm like Adam in hiding when the father's walking through the garden. And I just want to try to help those people feel seen, loved, and known and have some practically equipping around. What do I do with this? Because I don't think they're any more sexually broken than I am. Right, right. And I think the biblical story around, sexuality is that all of us are sexually broken.

All of us are called to submit our sexuality to Jesus. And the way that redemption looks for each of us sexually will look every bit as unique as brokenness looks for each of us individually. So there's not going to be like a clear one size fits all. But there have been people who have lived robust, fulfilling lives of following Jesus, single and celibate married with children married without children

throughout church history and that isn't it doesn't seem we have equal respect and viability to each of those chosen vocations at our moment in church history how long is your series you know it's six weeks

six weeks yeah it's through Lent so we're in the midst of Lent right now we're recording this and we did this exact I did these we did a leadership series last lent around the same questions. We tried to guide our lay leadership community with just several hundred people through a wrestling process around these questions and then guide our congregation.

But I'm not articulating any new theology. Bridgetown has held to the traditional view. John Marks taught on it. Yeah. And we have a statement on our website. So I'm not addressing something new for the first time. I'm more trying to add a little bit of more robust context to why do we believe what we believe. Why is that good news and what does it mean for me?

Okay. So, yeah. What are the six weeks? Like, how are you, what specific areas are you hitting? Or do you have it planned out specifically yet? Yeah. No, I'm not free will in this thing. So we started, so the teaching series is titled The Good News about our bodies.

Okay. And it's not just about sexuality. So I first did a teaching on labor, work, and vocation. Oh, okay. Then a teaching on chronic illness and disability. And now four teachings on the topic of sexuality, not because it's more important, just because it tends to be a little bit more loaded than the other.

So just trying to trace, trying to acknowledge that in the Western Church today, if a human being is made up of soul, mind, and body, and God appeals to every last part of us, we are much more likely to relate to God through the mind, like our intellect and our soul, whatever that inner feeling place within a person is, whatever terminology when you used to describe the inner life,

the emotional world. And then the body, we get our definitions from the secular imagination mainly, Even if it's not, even if we're not talking about sexuality, just most people relate to their body as like, like, point canvas, God has given me to perfect and sculpt or a source of shame that I wish I could change but can't. Or, you know, something to push to its limit or. And so I just think we needed a more robust understanding of why is Reservoir? direction embodied. And why is, you know, like all these questions that are on the pages of scripture. Why are we not Gnostics, essentially? And so when it comes to the four weeks on

sexuality, did a teaching this past Sunday on the Jesus story of sexuality, so just a Genesis to Revelation biblical theology. And then this coming Sunday I'm doing a teaching on the cultural story of sexuality. And it's like basically a history lesson of the last 50 years of the sexual revolution. How do we get where we got? Yeah, yeah. Um, and then, uh, a teaching titled the Ministry of Reconciliation and the teaching titled the message of reconciliation. So, the ministry teaching would be, what is the discipleship to Jesus invitation for someone who isn't 100% heterosexual attracted, or again, whatever terminology you choose to use? and how are they invited on a journey of discipleship of submitting their sexuality to Jesus?

And then even for those of us who are married to someone of the opposite sex, how am I meant to submit my sexuality to Jesus within my marriage versus just like, well, I guess I got lucky, you know? what does that mean for me over the course of because of course anyone who's married will tell you it's you know like sexuality is a journey of learning to love someone and steward the gift of your body and the body of another person in a Christ-like manner and so how do I submit this part of my life to Jesus and what does discipleship look like and then the message is how do I share this story as good news versus just, I'm so sorry, but I think this is true.

Right. And how do I engage thoughtfully, respectfully, and as a welcoming presence? Like, one of the most interesting things about Jesus, to me, is the people that he most disagrees with morally seem to like being around him best. Yeah. And the people he most aligns with morally, like, he doesn't really care for their company at least. They don't seem to like his either, you know? And so there must be a way. Like in our culture, we're equating agreement with acceptance, right?

When it comes to sexuality. But there must be a way to disagree with someone and yet them feel wildly accepted and loved in your presence. So how do we become those people in our city and trying to get into the specifics that people need of like, so when do I acknowledge someone's pronouns versus when do I say, I'm not going to call you that? You know, like, how do you actually bear witness to the way of Jesus in this area at our moment in history? So that's how, that's where we'll land. That's so awesome. I hope it's helpful, you know. So you say, you have a good number of same-sex attracted gay people in the congregations?

We have quite a few that I know about. And then I'm assuming there's quite a few that I don't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Probably a ton of parents with LGBTQ kids. They often, you know, just sane when, when, you know, when your kid comes out of the closet, the parent goes into the closet, often does parents, to a lesser extent,

but still to some extent feel similar layers of shame and guilt. And, you know, did I make my kid gay? Or, you know, do I do something wrong? Or what are people going to think of me if I have a gay kid? And they need a lot of pasturing too, you know? Obviously, somebody who is wrestling with, you know, their sexuality needs, you know, people to come alongside them. Sometimes parents just get kind of passed over.

So that's something our ministry really in the last few years is we're almost getting more emails from parents these days and pastures. Just so many people are wanting to model Jesus well, you know, in this, what can be a challenging, you know, relationship. That's something I think about a lot. Like, if you're a kid growing up today, I've got three kids growing up, even if what you have at the end of the day is ultimately like, oh, yeah, Paul puts this on some lists. So I think it's out of bounds for Jesus. Then I'm like, okay, well, that might have even worked for my generation. But like, if you're a kid growing up today in a world where like half your friends at school are probably going to explore different lanes sexually growing up, I need to, I need them to have an understanding of Jesus's view of sexuality that makes sense to them.

and is comprehensive within the biblical story. And why is the verses just like, yeah, I think, yeah, this. God says no, good luck, yeah. And so I think to me, that's what I'm really burden for. And that's why I say our moment in church histories. I'm like, the church is yet to have a robust, articulated, satisfying response, I would say. And I'm not in charge of the church, but I'm a leader of a church.

And so I'm trying to add my voice to an ongoing conversation that I long for the church to have in a better way. And I don't know if I'll be helpful in that. But I do feel like to not try out of fear or discomfort is not love. So I'm just trying to love the people that I'm entrusted. to lead. I love that so much. I often say silence is not an option. You can't be pastoring people in 2026 or 2016, even, you know, and when questions around faith, sexuality, and gender,

some of those pressing ethical questions facing the church today, you know, you can't to say, oh, I'm not going to help pastor the people God's entrusted me to with and just ignore out of fear often to help them think through some of the most pressing questions they're wrestling with. So thank you, Tyler, for diving in and doing it, man. I wish every church needs to do it. They need to do it well. There's some people I was like, yeah, maybe don't speak on this for a couple of years until you get educated a bit.

I've gone on a long journey with this myself and read very broadly and robustly. And I've been immersed in relationships with all different people. So I felt like the timing was right for me. I think I have something to offer versus just like, well, but I guess I'll take a crack at it. It's not that freewheeling. That's good. Yeah. Tyler, thanks so much for being on Theology and Nora live here in your backyard in Portland.

Yeah, man. So, I know you're in high demand. You're busy, so thanks for taking time to driving all the way out in the suburbs here and hanging out with us. Really appreciate it. Thank you for the invitation to chat and get to know you, brother. Thank you.