Theology in the Raw - What Does the Bible Actually Say about Alcohol? Dr. John Anthony Dunne

Episode Date: December 29, 2025

Dr. John Anthony Dunne associate professor of New Testament at Bethel Seminary and the Co-host and editor of The Two Cities podcast. John is the author of several books including his most recent book: The Mountains Shall Drip Sweet Wine: A Biblical Theology of Alcohol, which is the topic of our conversation. What does the Bible say about alcohol? We talk about questions like: did wine have the same alcohol percentage as today? Was it diluted? What is strong drink? Is getting drunk or buzzed always condemned? How can Christians consume alcohol without abusing it? Or, should Christians simply stay away from alcohol? See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

terms of health benefits, it probably is the case that wine, beer, et cetera, isn't quote unquote good for you, right? That doesn't mean that there aren't benefits to wine, beer, scotch, whatever, and the benefits that it does have is social. Hey, friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology. My guest today is Dr. John Anthony Dunn, who is Associate Professor of New Testament at Bethel Seminary up there in Minneapolis or Twin Cities. I think it might be in St. Paul, I forget. And he's also the co-host and editor of The Two Cities Podcast. John is the author of several books, including his most recent book,

The Mountains Shall Drip Sweet Rewind, a biblical theology of alcohol, which is the topic of our conversation. Yeah, I think you're going to find this very interesting episode. I certainly found it incredibly interesting. We look at questions like, what does the Bible say about alcohol? We talk about, you know, did wine and other alcoholic beverages have the same alcohol percentage as today? Was it diluted? What is strong drink?

Is beer in the Bible is getting drunk or buzzed? Always condemned? How can Christians consume alcohol without abusing it? Or should Christians simply stay away from alcohol? And we raise many other questions along these lines. I also want to alert you again that we are having the exiles in Babylon conference again in Minneapolis. that is Dr. Dunn's Home City, I think.

It's happening April 30th to May 2nd. You're not going to want to miss this. I am so excited about this conference. I know I said it every year. Every year is awesome. Every conference is great, I think. I love it, at least. But we're addressing some really, really crucial topics,

like how should Christians think about artificial intelligence? How should we think about immigration? We're having two dialogical debates, one on Christians in war, another on the historical reliability of the Bible. We're also talking about mental health and the gospel. We have so many amazing speakers that are going to be there. Sandy Richter, Pete and Shane Claiborne, Paul Copan, Dan Allender, and many, many others. Yeah, you're not going to want to miss it.

I'm not going to want to miss it because I'm hosting it. I have to be there. I want to be there. Can't wait to be there. Go ahead and head over to Theology Narrow.com. Check out all the information there. And please take advantage of our early bird special. You save some money if you sign up before January 15th.

Otherwise, the price goes up after that. So, again, all the information is, is, at Theology Norah.com. All right, please welcome to the show for the very first time, the one early, Dr. John Anthony Dunn. Thanks so much for being a guest on Theology and Ra, man. I, yeah, I've been wanting to have you on for a while because you are, is it, it by right to say you're kind of like the evangelical resident on a theology of alcohol,

which is kind of a niche. Is that a niche? I mean, I don't know too many people working in this. this space? There are a couple of people working in this space. My friend Giesla Kraglinger is an example, but I definitely would happily sort of carry the mantle of the evangelical alcohol expert. Yeah. So what, I guess we start, like what got you into this topic? Was it just a love for craft beer or was it out of theology, a theological interest or both? Yeah. It really actually did start with a love for craft beer definitely uh you know kind of their you know early teens uh 2010 1112 etc i was i was

really getting into craft beer and uh yeah i i i wrote up some blog posts for the two cities back when we first started in 2011 my first two posts were kind of like alcohol in the old testament alcohol in the new testament and i i you know really wanted to do a deep dive and i just thought man there's a lot here and it was it was really it was really fun to write that and i i knew there there could be more work sort of to pull out of that and uh just was really surprised because of my upbringing being fundamentalist baptist was really surprised that there wasn't more sort of like tension uh i think i was expecting something like that i had overlooked or just like failed to you know incorporate into my uh sort of thinking and was just sort of blown away by you

kind of the overwhelmingly positive nature of the way that the topic is talked about, but not just the positive way, the mundane way that the topic has talked about, just how casual it is, right? How normal it is for wine to be present in various episodes in biblical literature. And that almost stood out to me more than anything else. It was just all these casual references. And it occurred to me, I think what happens when we the topic strictly about permissibility, you know, can we, can we, can't we, should we, shouldn't we? What ends up happening is we inevitably end up sidelining a lot of these passages that don't help you answer the question. So a lot of these passages that are just sort of mundane, casual references that don't give you any kind of prescriptive or like warning oriented vibes to go off of. You just sort of, you know, chuck those to the side because they don't help you answer the question. Can we drink? Should we drink? And I just became impressed by the fact that we sideline so much of the biblical material when we talk about this topic.

Because we have a few of our favorite passages that we jump to, depending on what side of this kind of like permissibility debate you're on. And you just kind of jump to your favorite passage. You know, don't even look at wine when it's, you know, red in the glass or or, or, well, Jesus turned water into wine, you know. And it just kind of, this kind of back and forth lack of sort of savvy sophistication, which is where I think the biblical theology element comes in. But just was really kind of struck by that and always thought, you know, I'd like to do more on this. And because of my craft beer sort of appreciation, and then I went to Scotland, you know, from my Ph.D. as you did. So, like, you know, the kind of growing appreciation of, like, whiskey, you know, and, and Scotch, I think that, you know, they just kind of developed from there. Wow.

I want to get into the theology, but before we do, what is your favorite kinds of crop beer? Do you have a certain brewery or just kind of beer that you like? So as far as kind of beer, I definitely gravitate towards, like, the bigger, boulder type of beers. And whether that's, like, a bourbon barrel-age stout or a, you know, double. double dry hopped hazy IPA. You know, I love, I love double IPAs, Imperial IPAs. And also Belgian quads. Those, I gravitate towards those primarily, bigger, bolder, more interesting, complex

beers. As far as breweries go, my favorite is dogfish head. And always has been. I love the 90 minute. Yeah, the 90 minutes might go to. I always say, like, if a genie was like, hey, I'll populate your fridge with whatever beer you want, but it can only be one and choose. wisely. I would pick the 90 minute. I just feel like it's the best of all worlds. It's got a rich

multi-flavor, but it's a double IPA. And so it's very, very hoppy, but it's just balanced so perfectly, in my opinion. But I just love how experimental they are. And perhaps you know about their ancient ale series. One of the cool things, one of the cool things about that is Patrick McGovern, who was the kind of museum director, it's archaeologist, chemist, kind of just consummate scholar who's written the best books on ancient wine, ancient beer. He collaborated with Dogfish Head on creating a number of ancient ales. So if you've ever heard of like their Midas touch or some of these some of these other ones, Theo Broma, this part of this series, yeah, he collaborated with them. And he sadly just passed away in August. But I'm very grateful

that he and I were able to have a little bit of email correspondence for the past couple of years. He was giving me feedback on my book, and he even endorsed it just before he passed away. Yeah, so really bummed. I never got to meet him in person, but had a really nice email correspondence with him and just really grateful. He's definitely kind of my hero in this space. You know, his scholarship is top notch. And then, you know, I was a big fan of Dogfish Head before I ever knew about his scholarship and then once I realized he was you know sort of the the mastermind just yeah appreciation went up even further well I I resonate with all your preferences um a Belgian quad I Belgium triple is is probably my okay I like a good hoppy I'm not a big

hazy fan but a good like okay West Coast style uh more amber color real hoppy yeah um honestly man you know about New Holland brewery right and Yeah, of course. Yeah, Dragon's Milk. So Dragon's Belk off the chart. And I'm not even a big stout guy, but that is just unbelievable. But I went there, I went to the, I was out there a couple months ago, went to the brewery, and they had some kind of like IPA version of their bourbon barrel, whatever. It doesn't, it's not in the store. I don't, I'm never seen it in stores. I've never seen it up there. I've been to that brewery pub several times. It was hands down the best. I'd probably the best beer I've ever had. I mean, it was, wow. If you like more the heavier and the IPAs, it was off the chart. And I've had a lot of, I mean, I would put it above 90 minute. I mean, I forget, I forget the name, but they had a few different ones that they were kind of blending IPAs with their typical bourbon barrel age stuff. And I was like, this is, I mean, yeah, it was, I mean, it was high gravity. So it comes in a small, almost like a wine glass, you know. And yeah, yeah, off the chart.

Okay, so here, okay, my first big question, and I'm sure you get this a lot. You had a previous love for beer, permissibility with alcohol. Does that bias you when you look at, what does the Bible say about this? Like, obviously you're going to want it to celebrate it. And not that it does it, but I mean, does that, did you consider that? Like, am I even in an unbiased position to be able to look at this topic fairly? Totally. Yeah, it's a great question.

And I actually mentioned this early on. And I mentioned it in the preface and I mentioned it in the introduction as well. And when I kind of was testing it with some friends and colleagues, some of whom are teetotolers, people who don't drink, it kind of came up. You know, should I, you know, reveal my. cards, you know, and I'm from Las Vegas, so, you know, should I show my cards or should I, you know, keep my cards close to the chest? And I felt like the best approach is just to be upfront and clear about my personal preferences and my personal stance. But one of the things that I try to do, because I'm not really going at this from the quest of permissibility,

I'm more trying to account for the nuance and variety of how wine and beer, I can say more about the beer part, but how wine and beer function symbolically in scripture in diverse ways, rather than kind of strictly meaning or referring to one type of thing. Like it's often said, you know, like wine represents joy and blessing in the Bible. And I always say that's true except for all the places where it's not, you know, because there's places. like the cup of wrath motif where it's like, wow, okay, we're not dealing with joy and blessing here, right? And so there's different, there's different dynamics, there's different symbols, there's different resonances that we find in, in scripture. And so I really wanted to highlight that. Yeah, so I'm not coming at this from an unbiased perspective. I, I definitely have a stance here, but I do try to perhaps problematize or contextualize and provide a

a broader perspective than you might expect from somebody who is sort of like I guess lands on a particular side of permissibility. I also try to highlight that diversity of consumptive practices in the Bible. I have a chapter, you know, on abstinence where there are people who abstain either temporarily or it appears permanently. And think about that as a kind of model for church practices that we should expect there to be a diversity in our church practices. It's modeled. I think the Bible models that for us. I also think you have this kind of eschatological tension with Jesus and John the Baptist that I think we should see persisting as two sides of inaugurated eschatology, where, you know, John abstains because the kingdom is not

yet here, and Jesus imbibes because the kingdom is here, right? And I think that that eschatological tension can be perfectly reflected in our Christian practices as some of us abstain and some of us don't. But I also think there's something instructive about the kind of annual or festival cycle of abstinence and feasting that we should also take into account. And times of fasting versus times of feasting as well, not least with like Lenton practices or something along those lines. So that's definitely something that comes to that I, I, you know, try to highlight, you know, on the flip side, those who are really opposed to finding alcohol in the Bible, you know, it's a really clear example of motivated reasoning. So I'm not saying I'm unbiased, but you see

some really egregious examples of motivated reasoning on the part of those who are arguing that the Bible doesn't have references to wine, for example, or when it does, it is only in those contexts that are obviously negative, where the warnings are emphasized, where drunkenness is in view. So anytime wine is mentioned positively, we have to assume, and this is the kind of a priori kind of motivated reasoning part of it, where sort of the assumption is, well, it must be non-alcoholic because the Bible would never talk about wine positively. But that's just an assumption you make from the get-go, right? That's just historically wrong, right?

Exactly, exactly. And exogenically, if Paul says, do not get drunk with wine, he doesn't make sense if they say don't get drunk with grape juice. Exactly, exactly. But they like to talk about this kind of two wine concept, where they'll say something like, well, yeah, Paul is critical of getting drunk off of wine, but if anything is positively said about wine, we should assume that that wine is grape juice. So when Jesus turned water into wine, he turned water into grape juice, you know, any positive reference to wine, it should be taken as a reference to grape juice. So I see motivated reasoning on full display in that camp and also some just absolutely atrocious readings. There's this terrible example that I include in my book in a little sidebar.

this particular Seventh-day Adventist scholar who found a, in his translation of Athenaeus that he was looking at, this text called like the learned banqueters or like, you know, the dapnosophis, as it's called, he found in this translation this reference to a sweet capital L lesbian wine. and he writes with just this unabashed confidence that it's called it's called lesbian because the power has been taken out of the wine and setting aside the misogyny and the homophobia it's capital L for a reason it's from Lesbos right and and he missed that and in and in his citation he lowered he makes it lowercase. And so this guy just doesn't know what he's doing at all. So there's, there's some real kind of not just motivated reasoning, but just like really sloppy handlings of the evidence. Yeah. I have some specific questions about alcohol in the Bible, but can you give us maybe a brief like just biblical theology overview? How does alcohol function in the storyline of scripture? Yeah. So the way I set up the book, and it's kind of, it's part of a series called Biblical Theology for Life. And there's kind of three sections. So you start with

queuing the questions. And that's why I really try to highlight the complexity of this issue, but there isn't a kind of easy, neat way of talking about the symbolism of wine. So I just try to complexify that a bit. The second section, the main section of the book, is called arriving at answers. And that's where I thematically organize the material. There's a bit of a kind of implied storyline, especially the latter chapters. So that's where I'm looking at, you know, beginning with questions of like, well, what kind of beverages do we even have in the Bible that are mentioned? And try to clarify some things like, what is new, what is new wine? Try to highlight that certain things that you might not think should be counted, count like vinegar,

for example, that vinegar is not strictly going to be something that has completely turned into acetic acid as a result of oxygen, kind of converting the alcohol into acetic acid. but we should imagine it rather to be in a kind of process. So this explains why like the Nazarites, when they take their vow to abstain from wine, they also abstain from vinegar. And it's because there could still be alcohol in it. You know, you have to think, right, this is before they really fully understand how these processes work, right? But then issues of beer where I argue like, hey, there's beer in the Bible too, not just grape-based alcohol, but also grain-based.

And then like building on from there thinking about like, well, how was wine made and and these sorts of things or even addressing the question of dilution. Like isn't that, you know, kind of how wine was handled back then. It was just diluted anyways. It was all watery and like, you know. So address some of these kind of like, there's a lot of misconceptions. So I try to address some of these. But then building into the kind of theological side of it, thinking about like the land promise, right? And thinking about actual blessings like the patriarchal. blessings in Genesis, or even like song of songs and this kind of like wine and sexuality kind of dynamic where there is this kind of goodness, joy, blessing, you know, sort of dynamic to how wine is talked about. Looking at how wine was incorporated into the temple system and these sorts of things as well as libations and whatnot. But then looking at like people who abstain, looking at restrictions, looking at exploitation as a result of a drunkenness, whether it's violence or sexuality. But then, but then, you know, thinking about the loss of this promise, the loss of the land, the kind of exile, and how it's so often framed

in terms of a loss of viticulture, a loss of wine, a loss of this kind of blessing and abundance, this privation of goodness, the cup of wrath motif as this kind of like image of judgment itself, not just that judgment is taking away this good wine, but also like this kind of wild idea that like judgment feels like drunkenness, you know, and just thinking about that sort of dynamic with the cup of wine. But then, of course, what happens on the other side of judgment. What happens on the other side is, you know, God's restoration. And you've got these, this kind of abundance of wine, this eschatological banquet, all culminating, I argue, right, in the in the Eucharist, in the early Christian meals and thinking about how the Eucharistic wine is this beautiful blend of all of the

different varietals of how wine functions symbolically that you get you get these different sort of like streams flowing into the Eucharistic wine as this kind of consummate image of of wine in the Bible and then the final section of the book is called reflecting on relevance and so there it's like so what do we do with this and how should we think about it you know and it's more complicated than just the can we can't we it's it's there's there's there's there's a lot of different uh reasonable and and uh beautiful approaches to to alcohol that can be commended and there's abuses that should be avoided as well and i think we should expect diversity i think we should we should we should not imagine like any kind of cookie cutter sort of approach to this and so that's what

I try to emphasize there at the end of the book as well. Can women be leaders in the church? Pastors, overseers, teachers, preachers, and elders. This is a question that I have long been interested in, but haven't studied it out for myself. And as always, the strength of our passion should match the depth of our study. So this is what I did. I spent over three years researching what the Bible says about women in leadership. and I wrote a book about my conclusions.

It's called From Genesis to Junia. And on a search for what the Bible really says about women in leadership. And in it, I thoroughly examine all the main passages and arguments on both sides of the debate and try to treat them as fairly as I know how. The book comes out in March, March 3rd, but you can pre-order it today wherever books are sold. What do we know about the alcohol percentage in, I guess, wine. And then I do want to talk about, you said, beers mention, I think it's sometimes translated strong drink, Chakar. Is that right? That's right. Let's start with wine.

Do we know what kind of percentage of alcohol a glass of wine had? Do we know how large a glass of wine was? Was it two ounces? Eight ounces? Because today, just for context, like a glass of wine today, typically six to eight ounces has anywhere from 12.5 percent to upwards, you know, 15, 16. Obviously, they could be higher or lower. But what do we know about the ancient glass of wine? Yeah. Yeah, it's a great question. So the amount, you know, when you're talking about, is it a two ounce poor or is it more than that? Genuinely unsure, right? It depends on the utensils that are being used in that particular setting of consumption, right? How big were their vessels? How big were their goblets? But in terms of, you know, are we talking a kind of consistent? six ounce idea, like you're saying. I don't know about that in particular. But as for the percentage of alcohol, I think we should first say that yeast has a natural stopping limit.

So naturally, and naturally, the yeast is really not going to produce something much higher than 15%. I think we should imagine that ancient wine was, that's probably about the ceiling. And that And that it was probably often below that. We should also imagine that wine was much more in a kind of flux than contemporary wine where fermentation has fully stopped. There's nothing left for the yeast to do or the yeast have been killed from like sulfites or something like that. I think what we should imagine is that it was more dynamic. And I think this explains like passages where Jesus is like, you know, where are you going to put your new wine? You don't want to put that in old wine skins.

Do you want to put it in new wine skins? And why is that even something that you would talk about? It's because that new wine, it has alcohol in it. It's fermented, but they don't know how fermentation works. And it's possible you put it in a wine skin. That thing could continue to ferment in this new environment and it could expand the vessel. And if the vessel has been expanded from previous use, an old wine skin, it could pop. It could burst.

Whereas a new wine skin is going to be tougher and more rigid. And that could keep and hold any kind of fermentation that might happen in this particular vessel. So new wine versus just wine, new wine does have alcohol, but it would be a lower percentage? Or, or? So new wine, I think, is a designation for the most recent vintage. Oh, okay. So as opposed, as opposed to being like non-alcoholic or something like that. Basically, the kind of classification that we often use terms like unfermented or fermented, that's just not the right way of thinking about it. Instead, we should think about it as fermenting and fermented. Because as soon as you crush the grapes, you know, the yeast is on the skin, it's, fermentation is going to begin quickly. And under conditions in which the, you know, if it's like, if it's warm, you know, that wine, that juice is going to develop into wine, start to ferment, the presence of alcohol will be noticeable very quickly. So new wine is a way of designating fresh

wine. And that matters because as you store wine, it's, you know, it could potentially turn into vinegar, as just mentioned with the acidification if it's not stored, right? But also one way to combat that acetification is that they would use tree resins, right? So like tree sap, to coat the vessels, to create tight seals, these sorts of things. And so the wine often tasted like that tree sap. And so one of the reasons why it might be helpful to designate wine as new wine, it's a way of sort of saying it may not have either acetified and become vinegory

or it may not have any kind of tree sap flavor to it, right? Because it's fresh. It's been newly made. And so it hasn't been stored for very long. And of course, wine that has been stored well ages and that's going to be even like, you know, better. but there are complications that could arise from storing wine. And so designating something as new wine is a way of highlighting that it's fresh, it's from the newest vintage, and it's likely to not have those characteristics. Okay.

So it really doesn't have to do with the alcohol percentage. Although I would imagine, does wine when it's aged increase alcohol? Or not necessarily? So it's really about that fermentation. So if fermentation has been stalled for any reason, and again, they don't know how fermentation works. So they're not necessarily thinking about like, oh, these are the best conditions. And there could be some like received wisdom about like, hey, if we just like, don't

touch it and leave it in this room for, you know, it's going to be the best, you know. But in terms of actually understanding like, you know, how they don't know what yeast is, for example, or the conditions in which yeast is most productive. So I think that we should imagine that sometimes the fermentation process is stalled. So aging can increase the alcohol only if there's still yeast that's like in there and that it hasn't died out. And it's either going to die out because like basically it's created too much alcohol. And it's eating all the sugar and created alcohol, or it's like too cold or something like that. So in the right conditions, it will continue to ferment, but sometimes fermentation could get stalled. And so I think

we should imagine a big fluctuation of like how strong these wines were. But then the other caveat is dilution, right? This idea that, oh yeah, you add water to the wine and you reduce the alcohol levels. And there's this misconception, and maybe some listeners might be thinking this. There's this misconception that, oh, ancient wine was so stinking strong. And that's why they diluted it because they were bringing it down to like normal levels. I've heard this misconception a lot. It's just not true. Like I said, the cap is going to be like 15%. That's natural. And so, and most like it's going to be much less than that. So the idea of like diluting, you're not diluting something that's stronger than 15% but also this idea of dilution it's not a kind of like a constant thing where

everyone is diluting a but then also b that that people who are diluting are diluting at the same rate with the same amount of water you have different references to dilution where some people go for like a two to one some people go for a one to one one part water one part wine a real common one is three to one three parts water one part one part wine and i do i do a little uh illustration because when people hear that they think oh okay so it's not going to be it's going to be negligible as a result i do a little illustration where i take a bottle of 14.5% wine and i mentioned this in the book too but i take a bottle of 14.5% wine pour it into a bucket and then i take three three bottles of water same same uh amount 750 milliliters pour it into this bucket now you

you've got this three to one, you know, diluted wine. And I have people sample it. And everyone just says it tastes like water. And I'm like, okay, so is this negligible? I did this at Princeton Theological Seminary a couple weeks ago. And I've done it at a couple churches here in Minneapolis. And every time, everyone's like, yeah, this is negligible. Like, there's hardly any alcohol in this. Like, it just tastes like water. It's bland. It's boring. And I'm like, yeah, okay. Well, you could not buy this at a grocery store in Minnesota because it's over 3.2%, which is threshold. And so it actually would be stronger than a lot of IPAs at a British pub. Oh, so it doesn't taste like, it doesn't taste like anything, but it's stronger in alcohol

than a lot of beers at a British pub. And so it's really surprising to a lot of people to point that out to illustrate even at a three three to one ratio you're still dealing with something that is you know has the ability to inebriate you know right do we I don't know of any references in the Bible where they dilute what is that or I guess so this it's a good question is that a common practice and it's yeah it's a good question so so it's not a common practice until the Hellenistic period so for example in Isaiah Isaiah 122 is this great passage where Isaiah lichens apostasy to diluted wine, which is just amazing. It's like your silver, your silver has become dross, your wine, you know, has been mixed with water, something like that, yeah. And that's just a beautiful image. But after the Hellenistic period, because the Greeks were big on diluting, it does seem to be much more common.

And you have references in the Bible to like unmixed wine. And so that has led some people to say, oh, well, if you're clarifying that it's unmixed, that must mean that everywhere else it is mixed and you should anticipate that these references to wine are diluted. And I don't think that works. I think it's like, it's like saying, oh, you know, here's some decaffeinated or here's some, yeah, here's some coffee, decaffinated coffee or something. and then like thinking that I don't know every reference to coffee otherwise

yeah I don't know there's something about this the unmixed wine argument I don't think it works but one of the best places is in Revelation where it talks about a double portion is mixed

for Babylon the Great and specifically it's in her cup. What's interesting about that is in Roman convivia, you would mix people's sort of wine for the night in their own glass, the water and the wine. You'd mix it in their glass. In a Greek symposia, or symposium, you would mix it in a common vessel called a crater and then distribute to everybody subsequently. So there is a very kind of like Roman connection to how Babylon on the grape is having her wine mixed in her cup directly.

So there are references to dilution in the New Testament. I'm curious, was the purpose to, I can imagine a few different possible purposes. One, to reduce the alcohol level, two, to stretch out the quantity, especially if somebody wasn't that wealthy. Exactly. Three, I guess I only have those two. Yeah. Is it for dilution or is it for stretching out the wine or

both? Yeah, yeah, I think it depends on the host, and I think you're exactly right. So for some people, it's about moderation and self-control. You know, we cut the wine a little bit, and now, and now we're able to, like, practice temperance or something like that. And the idea of extending your wine or expanding it so that you have more to offer and people can stay longer, that is another reason. But then, of course, that means they're drinking more. And so then over the course of the evening, you are going to have drunkenness. And the thing is, is like these texts that tell us about dilution ratios, they also tell us plenty about drunkenness. So it's kind of a weird argument to be like, well, no, no, they just diluted it. So it was negligible. And it's like,

okay, then why is everybody getting drunk then? Yeah, yeah, okay. Let's talk about beer slash, Yeah. So strong is the only other kind of alcohol in the Bible other than wine, is it the chakar in the Hebrew, which is sometimes translated strong drink, sometimes translated beer. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What is it? Yeah. It's great. It's great. So most of the references, you know, are to grape based alcohol. And depending on what state it's in. So the vinegar comment, the new wine, the wine, the sweet wine, these different terms, but they're usually grape based. Although you can make vinegar from beer, and I argue that that's what's going on in number six as well, because it refers to this sour wine or this vinegar term, homates in the Hebrew, both with reference to the yain, the wine, and with reference to the chakar. And so I think, you know, malt vinegar, you ever had fish and chips, right? And I think that's the idea there. But yeah, this term chakar referring to either beer or some kind of general intoxicant, I argue that it's a reference to beer.

The legacy of the King James version is to treat it as a kind of general intoxicant, strong drink. And that's because chakar is cognate to the Hebrew verb for drunkenness, chakar. And so the idea is like, oh, well, this is just a term that makes. makes you drunk, right? And that's fine, except when we hear it in English, we hear whiskey, right? I think a lot of people, when they hear strong drink, they think something that's been distilled, a distilled spirit. But distillation is a medieval invention. So that's not a good translation, it's not a good translation because it makes us think of something that didn't exist yet. So hard alcohol did not exist before. No, no. Yeah. So that's why, you know, the 15% ABV, that's about as strong as we're getting in the ancient world. And again, that's pre-dilution and depends on who we're talking about if they diluted, because there are some cultures that did not dilute, and they were thought to be barbaric for doing so. And I would argue that ancient Israel did not dilute, but until the Hellenistic period. But this term for, this term, Chakar, I argue it's the term for beer. And there are scholars who agree with me.

There are plenty of scholars who do not agree with me at all, and that's fine. But it's interesting. I think that the term chakar refers to beer, but I also think that beer making is referred to without reference to the term chakar. So a good example of this is in Ecclesiastes chapter 11, verse 1. So this is sometimes translated, I think the NIV says something like, ship your bread across the sea, something like that. Ship your bread across the sea. But the actual, the Hebrew says to cast, it's shalach in the PL, to cast your bread, actually, sorry, sorry, did I say ship your bread? Ship your grain across the sea is how, is how the, I think the NIV renders it. Ship your grain across the sea. But the text actually says to cast your bread on the face of the waters, or on the waters, to cast your bread on the waters. And so this shipping your grain across the sea, it's like, well, what is that?

They've clearly looked at this, you know, term or this phrase in Hebrew and said, well, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If you send bread across the sea, it's going to go bad. There's no preservatives. It's going to go bad. Like, you can't send bread across the sea. So they must be referring to grain, even though it says bread. But really what's going on here is people have not realized how ancient beer is made, that you, one method is to take bread, crumble it up, put it on the water, and basically this soggy bread,

because it's got yeast in it, is going to ferment. And so it's a common, classic way of making beer. There's more complicated, more interesting methods as well. But that is one way of making beer is to crumble bits of bread into the water. And so I think that's what the teacher in Ecclesiastes is talking about. And the second half of the passage says something about returning after a few days. And I think that's the implication of the fermentation process. And in context in Ecclesiastes 11, there's all these references to not knowing where the wind goes or comes from, not understanding like how babies are formed in the womb. Like all these different things that kind of like stretch the ancient imagination. And fermentation is one of those things, right?

returning to this soggy breadwater and finding something after a few days, this I think is a reference to the fermentation process. But you have the term chakar being used a bunch as well. And if it's a reference to something other than beer, if it's not a general intoxicant, some people have thought it's wine, just a different term for wine, or maybe it is made from dates. There's another suggestion. And so you have these little debates. And I talk about this in the book. But I'm convinced that it's grain-based alcohol. And what's interesting is when you look at how that term has been used even into the beginning of the rabbinic period, it designates beer. So my argument is basically that it has always, always been a reference to beer. The Acadian term that it derives from is the

Acadian word for beer. So, yeah, so I just think it's always meant beer and grain-based beer. I think grain-based beer, too, would have been the most commonly made sort of alcoholic beverage in ancient Israel, ancient Judah, because you can make beer any week of the year. Whereas wine, you can only make once a year at harvest, harvest time, because those grapes are going to go bad. you have to preserve them some way, either through making raisins or through the primary way, making wine. And so, and so, and that's only, of course, if you own property, if you, if you have the fields, you know, in order to do this. So there's an economic aspect to this that I think is sometimes not recognized, and I talk about that in my book. So is it misleading to call Translate Shakar strong drink? Like you're saying, it doesn't, does it necessarily have a higher alcohol percentage?

No, it's a great question. It's a great question. Yeah. So I talk about this because I don't think it was stronger than wine. So then the question is, well, why would it be a cognate to drunkenness? And so my argument is it's it's not unlike how we think about beer today, right? Beer is associated with frat parties, you know, getting drunk at the bar, you know, overindulging while your favorite football team loses, right? Whereas wine is sophisticated, right? Wine is culture. It's class. It's a date night. It's a refined, you know, sort of like tasting evening, you know, whatever. And that, that doesn't make any sense, but that those are our cultural associations. It doesn't make sense in the light of the fact that wine is so much stronger than beer, right? On average, wine is so much stronger than beer. But we make those associations. because of consumption habits. We have societal expectations that you drink wine a certain way. Maybe it's because of cost, maybe because it's more expensive. But we have these societal expectations that you drink wine a certain way and you drink beer a certain way. And so even though beer is weaker than wine, we associate drunkenness with beer more than we do with wine. And we associate.

it's the same thing back this is the same kind of correlation between wine and more refinement and class and beer back then was more associated with large consumption and so cultures that could make wine often said disparaging things about beer even if they like even if they you know liked it or that people made it um cultures that couldn't make wine they loved beer they made beer that was their kind of like go-to drink and there's this great book by Max Nelson called the Barbarian's Beverage. And it's all about beer in the ancient world and how there was this kind of sophistication, sort of critique, this kind of class dynamic, even in the ancient world and how they thought about beer. Like, if you could make wine,

you often said disparaging things about beer. Interesting. Oh, wow. It's a little blurrier today like in Europe, but it makes me think of like France versus England or something. You know, England is very much a beer culture. France is very much a wine culture. It's a little blended. It's not like now when you go to France, you'll see a lot of people drinking beer. But wine is just the,

it's just you don't have a meal without a glass or two of wine. Totally. The UK wines there. It's just not as widespread. And to that point, British beer is even weaker than American beer. It is. It is.

People don't understand. Yeah. My, my, okay, going back to our favorite beer. my hands down favorite kind of beer is a cask ale from england that you cannot innocent gun what's that innocent gun innocent uh is that the wait is that a uh it's a it's a brand i was wondering if that's where you were going uh my favorite cask ale would be abidale i think green king is it green oh yes yes yes it's like five percent or something right it's it's And that's on the high, it's, for a British pub, it's a high, you're right, it's a high

percentage. Most cast, most cast scales are 3.5 to 5%. Five would be on the higher end. But it feel, like when you drink it, it feels like, oh, this, it feels kind of heavy a little bit. It's very multi, but it's actually very low percentage compared to like a double IPA at 9%. You're right. You're right. You're right. But yeah, no, it's interesting because like, when you, you know, when you go to the UK or if you've if you've ever you know been in like a British pub and you're watching football right international football there's that there's that pint glass in the corner of the screen and it's and and and you see like the kind of the level of where the beer is at and and it's meant to be this kind of reminder of how how quickly or not so quickly to drink

your beer it's this like it's this like pacing it's like this pacing it's like this pacing reminder to like to like okay if you're if you're finishing your first beer at this point in the game, great. You're, you're, you've hit the mark to kind of like, you know, curtail over consumption. But it's interesting because there, there is that kind of like cultural, um, issue of of overconsumption. And yet what they're primarily drinking are things much less, uh, uh, alcoholic. And, and I think what does that say? Well, it has to do with session ability or if you like, crushability. It's easier to drink low. alcohol things. So you're going to drink more of it, right? And so you're more likely to actually

get inebriated because of the habits of consumption around lower alcoholic drinks. And that's something I think that that people kind of miss because they think like, oh, well, it's not as strong so you're not going to get drunk. It's like, but how do people drink things that aren't as strong, right? And the culture plays a role too. Like when, yeah, when I'm, and you studied in the UK, you go to a British pub. And it's just, it's, it's, they're typically. classier. It is very social. People are, you know, I don't, you don't see people just slamming beat. Totally. That's true. In fact, I would say it would be in most, you know, I'm sure there's some grungy pubs or people just getting smashed. But typically, I think you would, it would be

looked down upon if you're, yes, putting down two, three beers an hour. Like, it's, it's by yourself in the court, you know, like, you, where you go to a dive bar in America, it's like, you're just throwing it back, you know? And they're taking shots and things. Yeah, no, I always, I always say, like, when you think of, like, a dive bar, like, stereotypes, right? You're thinking of, like, loud rock and roll and, like, leather jackets, right? But, like, when you go to a British pub, it's it's conversations and sweaters. Yeah, professors after getting out of their lecture discussing, you know, you go to, like, the eagle in Cambridge, and it's where Cricket Watson revealed their discovery of DNA.

And in most university pubs or, you know, pubs and, you know, University, sorry, one of my favorite places to go is an old, 200-year-old British pub. It's just my favorite. You feel like you're back in time. And it is, it's just such a different feel than like bars in America. You know, what of my goals? If I had the entrepreneurial ability, I would love to start an actual, like, ship wood over from England-style British pub, dark, kind of dimly lit. It's quiet.

It's there for people to gather and have sophisticated conversations. Yes. Yes. Those dynamics as well as an inefficient use of space. I just love how like how a lot of these old pubs are just like weirdly set up. And I just love it so much. I was just on sabbatical. Yes, yes.

And like weird little alcoves where there's some extra seating. It's like, what is this? I was just, I was just on sabbatical. in Oxford this past spring and summer. And I mean, the Laman flag, I mean, that place is just incredible. If you've never been, next time you're in Oxford or whatever, pop into Laman flag. It is such a delight for all the reasons you just described. Okay.

This one had, yeah, we had fission ships. Okay, yeah. All right, so let's go back to the Bible. Let me, let's, oh, I want to ask you about one biblical passage, and then I want to ask you some practical questions for today. The one biblical passage, Deuteronomy 14, where the Israelites, I always trip people up when I talk about this, and I'm paraphrasing, I don't have a Bible in front of me, but they are commanded, right, to, you Correct me if I'm wrong, to use tithe money to buy wine and strong drink. And strong drink. Well, yeah, Shakar. Yeah, Shakar. And celebrate before the Lord. And I don't know anybody that applies that passage today. Use your party or 10% or whatever to go buy some 90-minute dogfish.

And celebrate with the community of God's people before the Lord. Can you open up that passage for us? has started. No, no, I love that passage. I think it's a great example of how like you're saying, it's counterintuitive, countercultural, right? Like in America, post-prohibition, all this thing, like, of like,

oh, we don't sell alcohol on Sundays because it's a holy day. It's like, wait, have you ever read Nehemiah? Because it's a holy day, we're going to consume before the Lord. It's like, it's a completely different mindset where where like what what what festivals sort of mean and and how how uh how things are to be celebrated when it's time to celebrate how they're to be celebrated and that passage is just amazing because

it's a concession if you can't make your way down uh to jerusalem uh you're you're you're to do this sort of thing and uh yeah to consume it before the lord um it's it's amazing i absolutely love it There's a, there's a, uh, something that the assemblies of God put out, um, kind of like guidance to the denomination about how to, how to approach alcohol. And, uh, I wish they just said, you know, as a, as a voluntary community, like, we are opting out. We take the warning passages very seriously. And just leave it at that. That's, that'd be great. Um, but they proceed to offer, you know, very bad arguments for what certain texts do and don't do. And what they do at this passage is they say,

we should probably read it in the light of Numbers 18, where Shakar is poured out as a daily offering to the Lord as a libation. And it's just like, no, no, no, no, no. This is to be consumed. It's very clear in Numbers 14. Sorry, sorry, in Deuteronomy 1426, it's to be consumed. It's not a libation, although it is awesome. that Shakar is poured out as a daily offering.

And I think that's another reason why I think Shakar is beer, because you can make Shakar any week of the year, whereas wine you can only make once a year. So I think the idea that this is something you're making daily offerings of, you need a lot of, and if you're just going off of things you stored, and you're not going to pour out anything that has turned into vinegar, for example. So if you think about that, this kind of daily offering, frame, I think, is another reason why I find, I find Shikhar to be best understood as beer.

But the, the numbers 14 thing, that is not the text to read it in light of, you know, Numbers 18 and Deuteronomy 14 are just, yeah, not talking about the same things. Let's talk about the warnings. Let's talk about the negative side. alcoholism, people that just lack self-control, the biblical warnings, not just of drunkenness, but how that kind of expands and can wreck your life in so many different ways. Yeah. Yeah.

What does the Bible say about all that? Obviously, don't get drunk with wine, but be filled with the Holy Spirit. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, there's a lot. So there's a lot of warnings, and I think we have to take them seriously. Drunkenness is consistently. referred to in a negative manner, the only places where that's not entirely the case is like when Joseph and his brothers, the text in Hebrew says they got drunk, or when the mass of the banquet

in the wedding of Cana, when Jesus turns all this water into wine, the master of banquet says, you know, once people are drunk, that's what the Greek says, euphemistically had their fill, right? But once people are drunk, then you bring out the lesser wine, which is just a reference to, you know, habits at banquets and, and, and it's not an endorsement. Right. But it's just saying this is what happens. This is what happens. And it does suggest that in festive context, there's going to be more consumption than in mundane context, quote unquote, normal context. But, but no, drunkenness is, you know, narratively.

described as just being like absolutely dangerous, right? There's all these scenes of like, you know, political figures and war heroes just sort of like consuming too much wine in their tents or something and just being overrun by their enemies. You know, I even, I even think in Psalm 23 when, when David says, you know, I have this overflowing cup in the presence of my enemies, I think that there's some danger to that idea because to be inebriated in the context of your enemies is to be overrun and overtaken. But this is part of that, you know, that dynamic of God's presence with him and his kind of confidence, having come out of the valley of the shadow of death, he's going to fear no evil. And so he can even have these, have this overflowing

cup in the presence of his enemies and not be, not afraid. Wait, so the overflow, the overflowing cup is talking about a big glass of wine. I mean, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it's clear in the Septuagint, too, because it uses a term for intoxication to refer to the cup. But yeah, the overflowing cup. When I was a kid, you just shattered everybody's. Well, when I was a kid, when I was a kid, and I grew up, you know, very fundamentalist, you know, and I grew up King James only, so thou anointest my head with oil. I always thought the cup was overflowing because the oil just was spilling off of David's head and just pouring into the cup and then the cup was overflowing from all this oil that was dripping down his face,

which I realized at some point that is such a goofy thing to think. But I think as a kid, my mind never went to alcohol. You know, wine isn't mentioned there, but, but, but my mind never went to alcohol because that wasn't sort of within the realm of possibilities for what I could imagine in this fundamentalist context. And so I just thought it was oil dripping off of his face into his cup, which of course is absurd. It's referring to a cup that not only remains full, but is overflowing. That God goes from being this shepherd to this great shepherd to this great host who is providing for him in this kind of banquet scene. But what I want to add is it's it's a precarious banquet scene, but David doesn't have any reason to fear because God is not only the host, but is protecting him in that moment.

Does the Bible categorically absolutely say getting not drunkenness, but getting drunk is a sin or is it a little fuzzier? And I asked because I've got a friend, a really smart friend, who thinks that they're. it is that it is not categorically a sin there could be a season a moment a celebratory time whatever when you could get drunk and God's not saying you are in sin you need to repent do you have any thoughts on this and I hesitate even asking because I'm not sure how you're going to answer but I this is not obviously trying to give liberty or what I guess let me just let me give your answer first and then I want to maybe give a caveat depending on how you answer yeah yeah no for sure for sure. I mean, that's why I bring up the example of Joseph and the wedding at Kina, because those are the two instances where drunkenness is not sort of like made into like or given a critical light. But elsewhere, you know, it's included in viceless, you know, like in Galat, Galatians 5, you know, referring to those who aren't going to inherit the kingdom of God. Now, what I want to say very clearly, though, is I don't think we're talking about an instance.

of drunkenness. Like, oh, you've been drunk once. You're a drunker. It's a drunkard. It's somebody who's consistently... We're talking about habits. We're talking about customs. We're talking about an iterative or something or a consistent matter. And I think what the Bible is particularly concerned about when it comes to drunkenness is two things. One, the vulnerability that comes with it. So what you could do as a result of being drunk or what could happen to you as a result of being drunk. So I don't, I don't know if it's the drunkenness per se so much as the vulnerability that it, that is the issue. That normally leads to opens up other really bad decisions you're going to make. Yep. And then the other thing that I'd want to say is that what,

what is often put into the ire of like the biblical authors is the exploitation of resources that it implies. So there's a socioeconomic issue. Because if you're, if you are getting drunk, that means you can get drunk. That means you have the resources to get drunk. That means you have the leisure to get drunk. And, and these sorts of things. So I think, for example, in the prophets, I think that is a primary concern when it comes to drunkenness is what it suggests about your sort of responsibility to the community. I think that's even present in Deuteronomy 21 with the rebellious sun.

And, you know, why is this sun being stone for being a drunken and a glutton? drunkard in a glutton, I think it's because of what's implied about communal resources and responsibility to the family, as opposed to, oh, well, we know categorically drunkenness is bad and should be punished in this way. I don't think that that's quite right. So I don't think that the Bible commends drunkenness to be clear. I don't think it commends it at all. But I do think that there are ways of talking about this topic that can misdiagnose what the issue is. What the issues are? What about a buzz?

I remember reading a verse in the Psalms where it says something like God gave wine and make the heart marry or something like that. Psalm 104. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Make glad. Yeah, absolutely. Make glad the heart.

And is that referring to some kind of non-drunken? Yeah. Or is it, it's not intoxication, is it? Or is it just, or it's just, or it's just kind of that. So some of these terms are slippery, right? And some of these, some of this is like a moving target. I do talk about this in the book as well. So you've got like legal and kind of like local governmental ways of defining like drunkenness, right? Buzz driving is drunk driving. Well, that gets really confusing when we're talking about, wait, I thought buzzed is different from being drunk, right? Or, or, you know, like, oh, drunkenness is like, you know, 0.08% B.0.08% B. A.C. Blood alcohol content. Well, that might be true in America. And it might be true in some states. That's not true in other states, other countries. Right. And so you got these moving targets. And then you have anecdotally, like what you're saying, like, well, if I'm a little buzz, if I feel it a little bit, I know that that's not the same thing as like being blacked out or being what. And so you make these, like, distinctions. And I think the kind of like level of intoxication implied by terms like make glad, make

Mary, you know, these references that are common in the Bible, which is one of the ways you know that we're dealing with alcoholic beverages in a lot of these contexts. And so these references to being buzzed, if you like, or as Giesla, Craiglinger refers to it, holy tipsiness, I do think that that's what we are talking about. You know, we're talking about. You know, we're talking talking about that kind of, you know, light sort of feeling, being carefree, those types of dynamics. Now, the Bible also refers to, like, you know, being sick and disorientated and dizzy and all that. That's obviously not the same thing as, like, being made glad, right? And so the Bible doesn't have, like, clear terms, like buzzed or drunk.

Well, it obviously has drunk, but it doesn't make that clear of a distinction, but when it describes the effects on the person and the feelings of a person, there is a spectrum. So being made glad is to, I think, be buzzed, but then to be drunk, sick, dizzy, et cetera, that is to be drunk. And so I think the Bible has these kind of descriptive terms of the experience or the state that one can be in from alcohol consumption. And that's how I would make those distinctions. I want to talk briefly about two potential concerns, warnings, more from a modern day perspective. One, you know, the problem of alcoholism. And, you know, somebody listening to this could feel, I mean, you and you and our theologians primarily, we're kind of like, This is what the Bible says, deal with the kind of people.

And yes, we both enjoy a craft beer. But the text says whether we do or not, there's certain meanings that these Greek and Hebrew terms just have and the way the Bible frames it. So at the same, so I, so we're just, we're trying to understand what the Bible says. One could say, well, gosh, you just could. What if, you know, a lot of people don't have the discipline. And now you're just giving permissibility to people that are going to. to go abuse it and you're you know fostering that bad direction whatever i i think alcoholism i don't know if it's on the rise but it's a people who are alcoholics i don't know what the

percentages it's really destructive it breaks up marriages relationships damages you know kills people and drunk driving all these things um what do your concern do you have concerns with opening up the permissibility and and seeing where it leads to or how do we uh talk the way we're talking without enabling people to go down a really dark path. Yeah. So one thing I say is, you know, I have no interest in changing anybody's habits. If I have any interest in changing anything, it's how you think about certain texts of the Bible. But not, I don't, I'm not trying to like commend that you start drinking if you don't drink,

especially if you have good reasons not to drink. Or actually, you don't need any reason not to drink. But if you, you know, if you have like an inclination towards abuse, towards addiction, towards those types of destructive behaviors, yeah, don't change your habits or unless you are over drinking, then, yeah, change your habits. But what I mean is if you don't drink, I'm not saying you should start drinking. So one of the things I've loved is like when I have had book discussions as I was writing this with people reading drafts and things, those are. who were teetotalers in my class or in little group discussions, hearing what they think about the book. Because I've tried to be really clear that this is a book for everyone who loves their Bibles, not a book for like Christians who drink, right? Because all of our Bibles have references to

wine and beer. It's not just those who drink who have Bibles that refer to alcohol, right? As I say in the opening line, our Bibles are soaking with it, right? It's just it's all. It's all over the place. It's a ubiquitous theme and image and there's so many references. And so this is a biblical theology for everyone. I like to think of like Catholic priests and marriage when I think about this. You know, the couple, because the couple getting married, right, at a Catholic wedding, they might not have a theology of marriage, right? But that priest, that priest does. You know what I mean? That priest has a robust theology of marriage. And yet they're not participating personally in the in in marriage in the same way right and so this idea of

this non-participation and yet a kind of theological sophistication i think uh i'm not i'm not saying everybody who doesn't drink needs to like have a robust theology of alcohol but but i am saying that like it's still part of our tradition our bibles and and and so it's it's not this isn't just for people who drink. So I tried to walk that sort of tightrope and in trying to articulate that. I'm not calling for anybody to change their habits or anything. You know, I like to think of an example, sort of a thought experiment. Imagine somebody had just undertaken the Nazarite vow and they show up at the wedding of Cana, right? They're not going to partake of the abundance of good wine that Jesus has made. They're not going to partake. And yet they can

experience the blessing of what Jesus did that day, right? And I think that that's, that's kind of what I'm trying to get at. There are other, there are other ways of thinking about the, you know, the creative and embodied dimensions of this topic and apply it in other directions of celebrating God's goodness and his provision and his blessing to us. It doesn't need to be wine, but, but as the Bible, I think, makes very clear, it can be, and it's one of the ways that it can be enjoyed. But as with any good thing that God provides and gives us and blesses us with, it can be abused and distorted and twisted and turned into all kinds of things that go beyond God's intentions. Wine is no exception.

But here's the other thing. God's going to redeem that as well. And so I think that idea of on the other side of devastation, the other side of privation, the other side of judgment is abundance and a banquet and all of this. It's a way of thinking about how the final word on alcohol with all of this is not, oh, well, it's abusive, so let's abstain or whatever. That might be the appropriate posture to have for any particular person. And yet in the escuton, there's going to be mountains dripping with sweet wine. And in that context, there won't be abuse, right? in that context, there won't be these sorts of dynamics that we are dealing with now because of the pervasive nature of sin, right?

And so I think that that's a, that's the final word, is that there is, there are glimpses of this redemptive trajectory. So I use this example in my book. My dad's a teetotaler, and he's a teetotaler because his dad abused alcohol and then left the family. when my dad was nine years old told my dad you're the man of the house you know he's got four younger siblings and so my dad you know grew up presenting his dad but also grew up um hating alcohol and uh you know he always said i can count on one hand all the times i ever ever tasted alcohol and and he said you know one time he got halfway through a hyniquin and was throwing up in the bushes you know and i want and i wanted to be like oh dad you're a lightweight but but but i know i know what's going on, there's a deep psychological, traumatic, bodily reaction to, you know, his own resentment of his

dad in telling me that, right? But what's beautiful about this is my dad brews beer with me, and he knows so much about craft beer. No way. It doesn't touch the stuff. No, he doesn't drink it, but he loves to make it with me. And when I go home, when I go home next, we'll make another batch. Um, yeah, he, he, he, he loves to make it. And he, and he loves to, like, learn about it and, like, go to the, you know, bottle shop. And he, and he, he's, I've caught him being on, like, uh, brewmaking forums and like just reading, you know, it's just like, he, he, he knows a lot, but he, he doesn't, he doesn't drink any of it. And then so it's become this, like, great source of bonding for me and my dad. And I, and I, and I just think, okay, what was so destructive and ripped, you know, his family apart with his dad has, has become this. And, has become this. And, like beautiful source of bonding between me and my dad. And I just think, you know, that's a, that's a beautiful glimpse of this redemptive trajectory that, you know, the, the kind of destructive nature of alcohol as like a way of categorizing it. That is not, that is not what the Bible presents taken holistically. And that's not the trajectory that alcohol is on,

biblically speaking. I got one last question quickly. Do you have time for a couple of Yeah. Oh yeah. Okay. What about health? Up until Andrew Huberman, if people are familiar with Andrew Huberman, world-renowned health expert, PhD, scientists, whatever, uber popular podcaster, forever, I was always told that wine or alcohol, let's say wine in moderation is actually more healthy than overconsumption or no consumption. Like a glass of wine, maybe even to a day, is actually better for your health. But then Andrew Huberman, I think a couple years ago, released this like two-hour-long episode where he basically said anything more than like a drink or maybe to a month is destroying your brain, your health.

He gave just lists and lists and lists and lists of all the destruction that they, this has for, especially your brain health. Yep. I remember listening to that. My wife and I looked at each other. All right, well, we're never drink any. And yet there are, but then we step back and say, but why are the French where wine is almost with every meal?

Why are they living way healthier and longer? I think they drink a lot of, or eat a lot of cheese, drink a lot of wine. I think, I think Asian cultures where the alcohol seems to be. part of the rid, like, so I don't know, I mean, he gave what seems to be airtight, extremely well-well research arguments. So, no, I don't know. I don't, I can't stay confidently that like drinking in moderation is better than not. But I don't know. Have you, have you looked into this at all? Yes, yes, yes. So, so I've, I've read, I've read people who have, have said similar things about alcohols, kind of, not just like there are no health benefits, but also.

like it's detrimental, definitely read that. I've also seen podcasters and authors make the opposite case that, no, actually, there are benefits here. I volunteer at a winery, and I've heard the CEO and head geneticists there just go off about how silly all of this is, the kind of like, you know, anti-alcohol perspective from a medical vantage point. And sometimes I'm like, okay, I think there's like motivated reasoning here slash interests that are kind of pushing in and pulling in different directions.

And so where I've kind of decided to land is I don't think there are health benefits to wine. And I think that it probably is the case that wine, beer, et cetera, is not only doesn't have health benefits, but like isn't quote unquote good for you, right? But here's the thing. That doesn't mean that there aren't benefits to wine, beer, scotch, whatever. And the benefits that it does have is social. And those social benefits, I think, are really important. I think you see it, you know, throughout history. There's a great book by Edward Slingerland called Drunk. And it's about how basically, like, social cooperation is, was sort of like made public. possible and mediated through like our love of wine and beer. And it's a really great book. I really recommend it from that kind of historical perspective. And so I think, yeah, when I think about benefits, I think about social benefits primarily. I don't think in terms of health benefits. And so I think that means that we need to, you know, think about alcohol from a kind of

of, you know, risk, you know, management, you know, risk calculation sort of, like, perspective, taking seriously that there are things that, like, you know, the biblical authors didn't know about the effects of alcohol, beyond just the overt, obvious, immediate effects of, like, drunkenness, right? And so I think, I think we have to, like, factor all of that in. And so I don't, I don't speak in terms of health. benefits personally. Because I want to take seriously the results of people who have been loudly saying that it's not helpful. I haven't looked around enough to see are there credible non-motivated studies that would give a different perspective. That's what I struggle with. Yeah. And it's weird to think God would create something to be a pervasive symbol of blessing if it was if we found out later that it's actually categorically not good for your bodies yeah i mean i don't know yeah yeah because again

huber moh he wasn't saying he wasn't even saying don't drink more than like one or two or three drinks a week he was like maybe once a month one drink one six out okay but even that probably better not i'm like oh my gosh like yeah yeah wow yeah um no i i i i i i I totally hear that. And like I said, the people who push back, I just, I always think, yeah, but you have this really big wine platform and you have this really big, you have this big industry, this big company. And so I struggle with the motivated reasoning part of this whole conversation. And I want to like, you know, trust the scientific experts, you know, on these things. I do think that with regular people that regularly or even overconsume, that is.

is often accompanied with many other unhealthy habits. Yeah. You know, and even like when you, if you do consume a lot, you're typically going to eat a bunch of really crappy stuff. So I don't know how, and I don't remember if Andrew Heberman gets into that. But again, I just go back to other cultures where regular consumption is such a regular part in there. And they seem to be incredibly healthy. Maybe they'd be even healthier if they didn't.

Yeah. No, no, but I mean, that is something that that I fall back on to when I think about about this issue. So I agree with you to say that, yeah, but it doesn't seem to, you know, be impacting these other cultures. I also think what's different about these other cultures is because it's so normal, you don't have, you don't have abuse in the same sort of way. So you don't have like, so yes, they might be having a glass of wine with dinner. But it's sort of different because, especially in America, we've had this post-prohibition sort of hangover, if you like, where alcohol is still kind of taboo. And that, I think, affects consumption, you know, because you're hiding it or you are, you know, overdoing it because it was repressed for so long, you know, because of the drinking age or because of, you know, the context in which you were reared. And I just think, I do think that there is something, too, about the culture of consumption of alcohol, not just that they do it regularly, but they do it in a particular way as well.

Well, John, I've taken you far over the hour that you have a lot of, thanks so much for being on Theald Jara. This is a fun, fascinating conversation. I hope, again, that people take the whole thing in context. And I know this is a sensitive issue and people read. or listen to stuff through that lens. So once again, our hearts are that people would live sober-minded, not be going out and getting hammered. And we're certainly not encouraged to people to drink who don't drink, but we are trying to understand what the Bible says about this pervasive theme, as you said. So thanks for guiding us. Tell us the name of your book again.

The book is called The Mountain Shell Drip Sweet Wine, a Biblical Theology of Alcohol, with Zonnerving. It's a great title. Thanks again, man. I appreciate it. you. Cheers. Thank you.