Theology in the Raw - White Boy, Black Girl: A Raw Conversation about Race and Relationships with Adaeze and Chad Brinkman

Episode Date: November 14, 2024

Chad and Adaeze Brinkman are a mixed race married couple, who co-wrote an awesome book called White Boy, Black Girl. I highly recommend this book! Adaeze and Chad intentionally live out their passion of sharing the Gospel of Jesus together in their community. Adaeze works in the creative arts and Chad is a physical therapist. They love traveling and adventuring together, taking in the beauty of God's creation and encouraging others to do the same. In this convo, we talk all about their relationship and the beautiful complexity of race relations in the midst of it all.  -- If you've enjoyed this content, please subscribe to my channel! Support Theology in the Raw through Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theologyintheraw Or you can support me directly through Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Visit my personal website: https://www.prestonsprinkle.com For questions about faith, sexuality & gender: https://www.centerforfaith.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The exiles and Babylon conferences happening again, April 3rd to April 5th, 2025 in Minneapolis, Minnesota. I cannot wait for this conference. We're talking about the gospel and race after George Floyd. We're talking about transgender people in the church, social justice and the gospel, two perspectives, and a dialogical debate about whether the evangelical church is good for this country. Featuring my new friend, Adam Davidson. He's an atheist journalist and Sean McDowell, my other good friend, they're going to banter around about that topic. We also have Latasha Morrison, Ephraim Smith, Mark Yarhouse, Malcolm Foley, and many other awesome speakers. We're also adding some breakouts

this year, and we're going to have a killer after party. I can't wait for that one. Actually, if you want to attend a conference, you can do so by going to theology, raw.com. You want to register early. We do have an early birth, a fairly aggressive early bird special. It ends December 31st. So if you are planning on attending the conference, you want to sign up before then you could also attend virtually. If you can't make it out to Minneapolis again, April 3rd to 5th, Minneapolis, Minnesota, exiles of Babylon, go to theology and the route.com. And I hope to see you there. Hello friends. Welcome back to another episode of theology. And around my guests today are Chad and a Desi Brinkman who are a mixed race married couple who wrote an awesome book that I hold in my hands called white boy, black girl, what our differences can teach us one honest conversation at a time. This is an outstanding book that narrates in raw honesty,

their chat and the daisies relationship. And I learned so much about the intricacies of not just interracial couples, but also just conversations about race and just relationships as a whole. It's a fantastic book. I can't more highly recommend. A daisy works in the creative arts and Chad is a physical therapist. They

love traveling and adventure together, taking in the beauty of God's creation and encouraging others to do the same. Oh man, you're going to love this couple. Please welcome to the show for the first time, the one and only Chad and a day's a break. All right. Welcome to the Algenra, Adéze and Chad. I'm going to keep working on the pronunciation by the way. We had an offline conversation. I will say, and we talked offline and I so love that you do want to encourage people to learn the Nigerian pronunciation, not how most Americans would say your name.

And I say that as one who is, I am terrible at phonics pronunciation and just all that stuff. I was born deaf in my left ear. And so some people, somebody pointed out to me recently, that might be why phonics doesn't, it takes a lot more. I don't know if that's true or not, but that's my, Speaker 4 I don't think you're giving yourself enough credit. You did a great job. I think the left ear is just an excuse, man. You're doing great.

Well, what does it tell us? How do most Americans pronounce your name? Tell us the Nigerian pronunciation of why that matters. Let's, let's start there. Why not just jump right in? Sure. So also thank you for having us. We're so excited to be. So as we talked offline, I was telling you, we went at, when someone said my name back to me, when I was a little girl, they, they repeated at Daisy as a Daisy. And I was just kind of like, sure, you know, like as a child, you don't really think about that. You notice it's wrong, but, and everyone in my family still called me Adéze.

My relatives still called me Adéze, but it became very, like when we moved over here to the States, it just became my name, my Americanized name. And I have always felt like, don't want to go by that. That's not my name. But I feel like it's too late every time I would think about it because everyone knows me by a daisy. And only recently did I just have this...

It was kind of actually in anticipation of a move that we did recently. I just realized like enough is enough. in anticipation of a move that we did recently, I just realized like enough's enough and I wanna take back my name in its best sense and not feel like I'm inconveniencing anybody by having people call me by my actual name because it's not anyone else's name, it's mine. And so when we told my mom,

she teared up and everything and was so touched. My dad is in heaven now, but she was saying it meant so much to her because it's not the same even meaning to say a daisy versus a daisy. So a daisy in Nigerian culture means esteemed daughter of the King of Kings. So it means princess, but it's like, it's not just, oh, you princess. It's like, no, you are like me, daughter of the King, the King,

and reigning Lord of our lives, you know? And I was like diminishing that meaning this whole time is how I felt by not going by the name that my parents so intentionally and lovingly called me, named me. I'm the fourth of three older boys. So my mom was always like, we pay three, we kept the lead for you, all that. And so, you know, it was just, it was such an encouraging confirmation from the Lord of like, yes, reintroduce yourself to the world. That's something Chad told me when I decided to do this. He was like, it's like you get to just reintroduce the world

to who you are, which it feels like that because of everything the Lord is doing in my life right now. So that's kind of how it trickled into what it is now. And in the book, you'll see that I say both pronunciations to share that that's part of my name, but it is Adesu. That's the wife. Oh, so good. So good. As you should, I'm so glad you do challenge people to say your real name. I mean, I want people to say, if they, if people call me Preston or something, I was like, yeah, that's not, you know, not my name. I'm not a Disney character. I get people to call me sprinkles a lot sprinkles. I'm like, there's only, there's only one of me. You don't need to pluralize it. You know, how

did you guys meet? Let's start there. How far back does that go? And what was that? How would I tell us about? Yeah. Tell us about that experience. Yeah. So I, I moved to Denver and Daisy was, was, I'm leading worship about a church at the time and I joined the worship team. So I was originally, I was actually her volunteer. And so our relationship started as kind of like a leader to a volunteer within the church. And so we got along really well immediately. And we ended up having really good conversations. You know, it had it had there not been that interesting leadership dynamic, we would have probably started hanging out more because we just,

we, I mean, here we are a married couple. So something was clearly jiving at the time. It was clearly jiving because where did you position yourself strategically? Oh man, we're going to go there on the podcast. I would intentionally position myself behind my soon to be wife because I was playing guitar. So I wanted specific views of what was going on in front of me, which so this is a super holy conversation. And yeah. So you say in the book, you talk about that in the book. I was like, all right, here we go. I do. Oh man, I forgot that we said that actually. So yeah, so I glorified the Lord by placing myself behind my future wife. I had her back from the start. And thank you for backing

me. I always. So we met in church, long story short, and one thing led to another. We ended up, I was going to go up another campus at this church. That opened the door for us to actually start a deeper relationship because I was no longer one of her volunteers. We went and got tacos. And it was initially, genuinely, it was just for me to say, hey, thank you for everything you've done. Thanks for helping me grow in this season and be a part of what you're doing,

but I'm gonna go help this new location launch. And five hours later, we closed down a brewery down the street and things lit one to the next and we ended up having some really interesting conversations even there. About dating, not us, but like dating within the church, all those dynamics for single people. I think some single people couldn't probably understand what we're saying. And racial conversations too. There was a lot of like what what would it be like in your family? You brought home a black girl and something like that once we realized okay, we both like each other kind of stuff

But even before that I think there were some Conversations like that. Well, you asked me that night under you asked me that night. Am I attracted to black women? This is an accidental date. We didn't know this was a date. This isn't even a date. This is like a get together to say thanks. And this is where the conversation went. Five hours later. Yes. Do I find black women attractive? Well, okay. What did it jump from? I believe the ministry you're a part of to do by black

women. There was a jury. But yeah, eventually that's Jacket. There was a jury, Preston. But yeah, eventually that was the destination. It was one of those things. Okay, so I mentioned, I feel the buzz. They had like, they had repeated it as being single for so long, at least felt like for me. They were like, they said, you have to, you can't assume with guys.

Friendship for guys is different friendship for girls. So, you know, when you think a guy might like you, don't assume, just wait till he calls it a day. Wait till he says you guys are, or asks you to be his girlfriend, you know, don't assume. So it was basically like, let the man pursue you and hunt you, he's the hunter, but don't be afraid to break some sticks,

you know, like Bambi and stuff. So like, I had to make sure that this is what was happening. So yeah, I asked him if he had attracted the black woman and he said yes. And I was like, who can't just, you know, because I couldn't just say Beyonce. I couldn't say the one black woman that all white guys are going to know. So he, I forget what he said. I think he said, uh, I don't remember. Anyway. Yeah. So then I was like, all right, so just for research purposes, strictly, do you find me attractive? She actually did.

You said that. You went there. For those of you on YouTube, she did the hair flip and sat up straight in her little bar stool. Let's talk about, let's be adults here. And without missing a beat, he was like, yeah. I was just like, Oh, there you go. I'm bad.

I didn't realize what was happening. So it wasn't, okay. Thank you for the compliment, Preston. It wasn't confidence. It was that she telegraphed that move. It was very clear. She was, she was drawing it out of you. I mean, come on.

Right. You were fishing. This wasn't, if there wasn't confidence, you had been like, ah, but it was just like, you think you were Bambi. You are not Bambi. You were, you were an elephant knocking down Trump trunks of trees along the way. I have no regrets. I'm going to get, I'm going to guess at a brewery in Colorado. There probably wasn't a lot of other black women there that you can kind of look around and say, well, among the options

here, I find this. I don't think there was that night. We were definitely the, you were the only black person in that brewery. You know, it's funny. I had around that time. I would notice that kind of stuff more. I did not even think about that. I'm having trouble remembering. I was just that interesting. You were that interesting. So, so when you guys started to get into more below the surface conversations about race, let, let's go there. Cause I know you guys, yeah. And the book documents your journey with exquisite detail, raw honesty. I love it.

It's, it's such a great book. Um, but I think it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, there. Cause I know you guys, yeah. And the book documents your journey with exquisite detail raw honesty. I love it. It's, it's such a great book. It take us back to when it started to get a little bit, a little bit, and I was saying tents, but like, Oh, this, this is more difficult than I thought it would be. Well, so right from the start. So I, I come from a family that's southern and long history of southern family.

Like that's just the roots are in kind of farm towns and south. And so with that, there's a lot of beliefs and understandings that just are kind of inherent in that culture and where my family's from. And so even the initial conversations of, hey, I went on a date with this girl and my family knew who Daisy was. And even though there was no indications that there'd be an interest,

I had talked about her, you her. She was my leader. She was an important part of the church that I was going to and we had a lot of fun together. So I had conversations to know who she was. But then to turn it into a bay, I think I went on a date with this person. That struck a chord. That's where now the rubber starts to meet the road. And there's lots of honest questions that are coming up that are coming from cultural blindness, cultural misunderstanding. It's just, it's bucking a system that really hasn't had to be addressed within the family and cultural context. And so, even from there, things started to turn and there are just a lot of questions right off

the bat that you have to wrestle with, which is interesting in a time where excitement is so high and you're excited to go down this new path of somebody you're interested in. But yet, there's also this dichotomy of there's a lot of hard questions to deal with. And so right from the start, we didn't have much of a timeframe of just excitement. Yeah. Rose, cut web lenses. Yeah, it came off pretty quickly. And so some of that stuff was happening right away. And then even on our third or fourth date, going to a brewery, and now I'm not as interesting as this five hour long accidental date. We're at another brewery and it isn't realizes that she's the only black person in the room and I'm completely at boogie. And so now we have to enter into that

conversation. And so we're literally like less than a month in and we're already starting these conversations of do I see what's going on? How does that make you feel? How does this relationship now get affected by the circumstances? And at what point for me, it was like, at what point do I bring out certain things that in the past have caused dissension, have caused defense, have caused, oh, you're too sensitive or it's not, not everything's about race or why do you always make a video about race, especially when I'm dating, when I've dated

interethically. And so it was, it was so much outward stuff. There wasn't actually a ton really here that we had to figure out as far as just us. I think the later on in our, what I would say later in the stereotypical dating age of at least in our church, we were kind of older at Matt Realm.

And so I think we had gotten to the point where it was like, this is me, you can take it or leave it kind of realness which was good because of all the outward things that were causing us to be trying like to just get dive in to the deep end really quickly not not to the point where it was too fast it was just like oh like Chad said like we don't have time to just kind of hey just pretend you know and so uh that was a huge struggle for me. Like, Holy Spirit would always ask me, do you wanna be actually known by this guy or do you wanna just play it safe for however long

and delay the inevitable? Like, you know you're gonna have to have these conversations with them if you wanna be with them. I know that I can't be with someone that I'm not myself with, That wouldn't work. Especially all that. Yeah. Can you take us just a little bit deeper into those previous conversations, relationships that once you got below the surface, they didn't go well or, oh, you're making everything about race. You're too sensitive. Can you give us an example of what that might look like or

Yeah. scenario? Like in the past or with Chad? I was thinking the past, but I know either one. Yeah. Because I know you guys had some of that too. So wherever you want to go. We did. That was, yeah. Well, I'll start with in the past, because it would have come a little easier than I remember.

But in the past, there was actually a very similar start, at least to what was going on with family stuff in our situation. So there was a scenario where I was dating another white guy in the past and I was trying to explain to him how, hey, I don't think your family is okay with me because XYZ, I will bore you with one less than most details, but it was like certain things that would happen over a certain period of time and he wasn't seeing them when I would bring them up individually. So eventually I was like, Hey, I think you need to like, maybe check with your family, see if they're okay. With me, with you dating me. He's like, why? I was like,

Can you give us the examples? Actually, I'm curious. Sure. Absolutely. Because I think that would be helpful for people to know. Yeah. Absolutely. Okay. So we always, we joke about this. Sometimes I go into too much detail, I tell stories and Chad's way more just like, here's a thing. This one's important. This one, yeah.

Yeah. So we had visited, they lived on a farm. We had visited them and they had their grandparents, or like the man I was dating, his grandparents were there. So the parents of his parents. And he brought me in and the grand dad looked at me and was kind of like, he made this comment that was like, you, oh, your kindness here, you're here. This is interesting kind of thing. Like, you just kind of made it a very, everyone looks my way. And it was one of those like, oh, like I, I walked into it being like, this may or may not go well, I could stereotype them. They were on a farm in this area of the world, of the US, which I won't call out. But it was one of those

like I had to fight all the stereotypes, right? And then I walk in and there's just very cold greeting like that. If that's even a greeting, it was just calling up. Okay, you know, like I'm saying, that's what he was saying to me. And that might not sound in this moment, like a very big deal. But it was just everyone else got a very different greeting than I did. And so that was the first thing. And then his dad was talking to me and asking, so where are you from? And what gets stereotypically like,

so I don't even wanna make those actual places sound bad, but it was like a stereotype of me that he had experienced in the past, this seemed like, and he was putting on me. So does that make sense what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So it was like, oh, are you, and I'm not remembering right now,

and it could be some drama stitch that I'm like locking out, but I just recall it being a very like, no, that's actually I'm from here, and actually I do this. And so it felt very felt very you have a preconceived idea of me which you know what to be fair I had to fight my own of you all but now being here I'm not acting on them you know I'm here. I did not come because I thought maybe you were these racist farmers and now I'm here and you're stereotyping me as this not well-learned black woman who you seem to have issue with.

Does that answer your question? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's helpful. So when I would bring up certain things, and I wouldn't in the moment, I wouldn't... This was back when I wasn't as confident to stand up to things in the moment. I didn't want to be the problem. I didn't want to make everyone else feel uncomfortable or as uncomfortable as I was feeling. And now I'm a little more comfortable doing that. But at the time, I didn't say anything until it kind of built up. And so some of the blame was put on me of why did you say anything in the moment?

Fair. Okay. Yeah. but you're missing the point. Did you notice that these things happen and they keep happening? And it was like, you're just being, that's just how grandparents are, or that's just how he is. Can't take it personally. And I was just like, no, I don't think it is because he doesn't do that to anyone else here. And sure, he's not meeting this person for the first time that that person was kind of new you know it was it felt like I had to defend my experience instead of it being like I could see how that would be really hurtful for you first meeting my

parents and my grandma yeah and so that's what I mean why I've said in the past I have brought up stuff and it hasn't been heard as, though I've never seen my loved one around black people, I can believe you that they're maybe not treating you as a black person great. Cause that was the excuse was like, this person loves everybody. This person would want her.

And one of the things I would say would be like, well, have you ever seen them around the black person? And they'd usually be like, no, I actually haven't. You know, it's so- That was my next question. That's my next question is how would you have wanted him to respond? You kind of said it, but not to like jump his grandpa's face and say, how dare you, whatever, but like, just to believe your experience in that moment. Is that the kind of minimum? Okay. I think that's it. Yeah. It was rather than a, Oh man, yeah, I did see that. Even

just acknowledge that you, you're in the room. Acknowledge that you also saw what he did and that it was not okay. Unless you're trying to tell me you are okay. Then we got a different problem. But like, I, I'm going to trust that you don't think that's okay either. You wouldn't do that. You didn't do that to me You know, I think it was the fact that that was it was like well Excuse excuse excuse defend defend defend that person instead of sit with me and I'm at the time your girlfriend You know, like I'm the person you're bringing into this space. It just seemed like there was no awareness of So you're bringing into this space. It just seemed like there was no awareness

of what that space could mean for me because he had grown up with these people. He knew these people's hearts, which I'm not even, it wasn't about the heart. It was about what was happening in the room, you know? And I was learning it in mommy too, so there's grace for, oh, I didn't even realize that's why I didn't do anything.

It wasn't that, that wasn't even the point I was trying to make. It was can you see why this is not OK? Great. OK, then can we move forward out of that? But if we can't even agree that this is not OK and that I was hurt and I was other than that room. What are we doing? Support for today's podcast episode comes from iHerb. What are we doing? What are we doing? What are we doing? What are we doing? What are we doing? What are we doing? What are we doing? What are we doing?

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to upgrade your selling today. That's Shopify.com slash income. Hey, take us to the time when you guys had a similar adjacent kind of experience, which one you want us to talk about Preston. Well, that, I think that one in the restaurant, that third or fourth date in the restaurant when you, when you, and you didn't solve it that night, like you both kind of went home and I'm just kind of recalling your both. It was really cool to see your experiences narrated in the book. So yeah, by the way, the book is both of you writing individually. So you know exactly who's writing what. So it's almost like a conversation between Chad and a day's a, a going back and forth on how they kind of interpreted your journey

together, which I thought was a great way to narrate it. So yeah, take us to that, take us to that restaurant. Yeah. So there's a couple of different restaurant examples too. Yeah. Maybe we'll go to, I can maybe just go to that early one too. When we were sitting in a brewery in Colorado, and a daisy noticed us that there, A, there's no other black people in the room, but B, that there are also some white people turning and looking at us. Not just like, I mean, restaurants people look, right? It wasn't just a side glance. It was literally people turning, like, underneath greets to come stare at us. It was, it was awkward. It was weird. And it was people that were not, like, in the table adjacent to us.

It'd be people kind of aggressively. And I'm completely oblivious. I have no idea what's going on. I'm just sitting at a restaurant hanging out with a new girlfriend or you know what, I don't think it was a girlfriend yet because I hadn't specifically asked. Was it night? No. I hadn't specifically asked. Was it not yet? No, I hadn't specifically asked, will you be my girlfriend? Which that's a story for another time. So I'm completely oblivious. We're getting a couple beers because I'm a beer guy.

And so I'm teaching my new girlfriend about some beer and I'm going to get the most bitter thing in there Double IP a it double So so we're sitting there in and it is getting a little bit more Uncomfortable and at some point she brings up to me, hey, do you notice these people? And me, completely glassed over. I'm like, no, I have no idea what you're talking about.

There's this, okay, great. And I end up looking and seeing, but she still hits me. I was saying I think you caught someone like right when they were doing it. I did, yeah, I caught somebody in the act. Then that sounds accusatory. I just saw somebody. So, Anissa brought it up to me and she's feeling or she expresses her feelings of,

hey, this is kind of uncomfortable. Why would they be looking at us? What's going on? In my first reaction, I believe I actually said this. My first reaction was be looking at us? What's going on in my first reaction? I believe I actually said this. My first reaction was people look at us all the time. Like what's, what's going on? What's the big deal? And you're covering your mouth because you know, it was a bad thing. I'm actually curious. Why did you cover your mouth? Well, I, I, I want you to unpack why that is because that, cause I can understand. I could understand someone saying, yeah, what's wrong with that? Like who, like almost, almost diminishing the potential impact that can have and almost demonstrating

a resilience to the, I don't want to say like soft racism or whatever you want to call it. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Micro aggressions. Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to, I wanted to see a day. They jump up and say, Hey Jim Crow, you need something over here. And that's something that was always this mind game for me is like, I I would usually first question why and then I would have to play this game of like don't assume that it's because you're black or because they don't want you here they could just be admiring your outfit they could think you guys are a cute couple like what if like there's always there was always that side like even if I succeed at the there was always that thought like even if I succeed at the the the wrestling match of is it about race or is it because this there's still that initial you know what I'm saying like it was

it was always like a a thing I had to calm down okay or maybe it is but we don't have to focus on that that is it you know um that was something always been teaching me, especially at that time. This was like, this was 2019. So right before 2020, all the racial unrest came up like crazy in the US. It was a very, it was something that I noticed more and more around that time. And 2020, it did like a extreme but so my question to Chad of like the notice was actually kind of like the notice was actually kind of like, what do you think the looks me? Cause I'm not trying to,

I'm not trying to label them as anything. I'm just trying to share my experience again, like we talked about with the last one, like I want, I want to share my experience of this field uncomfortable, hardly cause I don't know why. And sure, I can just ignore them. I'm not always that strong.

I'm not always just able to be like whatever, don't care, especially when it's everywhere and so often. And it was just weird. It was just weird. It makes you feel like, do I have something on my teeth? It's one of those things. And so that's why it's even kind of strange to bring up. Because you try to say, I'm suggesting a theory, but wait, wait, you said, you know, it was just one of those like, this is weird to talk about and it's weird to bring up. But I feel like I have to bring this up with you if we're going to move forward in our relationship because this might be our reality here at the time in Colorado, not having as much diversity and not seeing as much, you know, inter-ethnic relationships

in public. And so that was kind of my heart, but like, I don't, obviously the moment you don't maybe speak to explain all that. And so one child was like, oh, I don't really see anything wrong. So it's kind of like, okay. So good to know that we might not be on exactly the same playing field right now. Nothing wrong with that. So then we moved into like, okay, this is what they mean to me, or at least what they

make me think. Then all those questions I just shared with you. And then after that, I feel like that's when there was a shift for you because your eyes started opening to my experience. Would that be fair? Yeah. I mean, I'm not gonna give myself enough credit to say it perfectly happened that night. It took a while to get there.

But in me saying something like, hey, of course you're looking, we're a restaurant, people look, it diminished the fact that the day that it was having these questions, she was having to plot them out of her head. Right, and so like you said, Bryce, people could totally see that as me showing some resilience. And it's, I think within me, it probably was some resilience. I'm like, oh, whatever, it's no big deal. But this is not

sharing that with me. She's sharing it with me because it's how she's feeling and it's something she's noticing. And so for me to say, yeah, of course, we're looking whatever, it's diminishing her the fact that there is an emotional battle, even if it's a small emotional battle, she's dealing with and now I've said, I'm not going to be there. I'm just gonna stay over here and think my own way and feel my own way and just ignore the fact that you had this happen to you or us but ignore the fact that it hit you differently than it will. And so, yeah. That is a question that absolutely does.

And I'm wondering, Adesai, does that get, I mean, I'm trying to frame as a question, but it's more an observation, I guess. Like it just sounds very exhausting that you're constantly having to interpret little signals as is this racism? Do they like my dress? Do they think I'm cute? They like my hairstyle. Am I being too sensitive? I'm not being sensitive enough. Is this the, I mean, it's like the, the, the, the wind is like a computer with all these windows open constantly. And it just bogs down the, the, right. I mean, cause I mean, I, I, the only thing I could compare it to that is white guys always like to compare. Oh yeah. I know what you're going through.

But I mean, like, like if I'm speaking and my mind just constantly thinking about making sure you say it this way, they say it that way. Well, shoot. Did I say it wrong that way? Especially when I talk on controversial stuff, it's like every word counts. I am mentally exhausted. My brain just constantly second guessing everything or just like that. Is it, I mean, just somebody understanding or at least wanting to understand just how that experience that you go through probably all throughout the day and most days is just, that's a chat. That's it. That's a challenge that a lot of people don't have to experience. It is. I want to say I feel very seed with how you just described that.

So thank you. And I think it's really important to note that that is my mental game because of my experiences, because of times when it has been confirmed that yes, it is because of race, right? Yes, it is because they disapprove of me or don't think I belong here. So for someone else who maybe has never experienced that, they're probably not having all these things going on, right? But from my specific experiences and where I was in life and the gross path

the Lord had me on, that was my reality. And so, and even now, I don't have that as much. We do live in a more diverse area anyway, or the diverse place. So I don't have to think about it as much. But at that time, yeah, it wasn't just all those things going off of, is it this, is it that? It's like, well, once you maybe decide it is or isn't, or I'll say once you decide or figure out, evidence shows that it is confirmed. Now it's like, well, what do I,

how do I perfectly be the perfect black person? How do I say something without offending men without, you know, and then there's that whole, at least for me, that's the whole mind game, right? So, and I think even being in ministry for so long around that time, there was a lot of like, how I present myself was always under a microscope. And that's just the reality.

And that's not negative or positive. That's just the reality of the job I had. So I think that in combination with that kind of reality, had just just made it kind of moonlight in this, in the second guessing of myself a lot. And second guessing of my experience. And because if I don't describe my experience perfectly, then you won't believe it. At least that's what my history has shown me.

And so then there's, so there's, it's the mind games of everything we talk about. It's also the mind games of, okay, wait, don't judge this person based off of this negative experience you just had yesterday. Or don't let this person get you to your breaking point because you have all these built up experiences right underneath it or right before it. You know, like, so there's, there are so many things that can go into a race conversation

in the present on my end. Not even, that's not even including everything on Chad's side, right? So we, in that moment, were these two opposite experiences, opposite opinions, front of those experiences, in that moment, trying to be like, let's talk about this really uncomfortable situation that's happening to both of us at the same time, but we're both experiencing such different realities of it. So how do I not discount you being not bothered by it, Chad? And how do you not discount me being bothered by it? You know, that is the crux, I don't think, of inter-ethnic relationships that

want to go deeper, like you said, under the surface, under the surface level stuff. It's easy to just say, I'm not bothered by it, so you can deal with it by yourself. Well, I am bothered by it, so I can't talk to you. It's easy to just like isolate ourselves, but that's something the Lord's been teaching us. And part of why we wrote this book is like, when you meet in that messy middle, change can happen. Like that's where God is like, both of you are outside of your comfort zones. Both of you are at the end of your, I know how to do this, now I can work. Now miracles are gonna happen, chains are gonna break,

and I'm gonna use you to help free this person or whatever. So that was like a huge start to the deep stuff for us, this date that Chad was talking about. It was a breaking point for me, I think, to even trust that she could go there with me. We haven't gone to that part of the story. But it wasn't just Chad didn't just stay in the life. Nope, that happened on my end.

Like we started diving after that. And I think that was for me a really important moment in our relationship. Chad, can you talk to us about, yeah, I wanna know from you, like when was the first kind of breakthrough moment where you were like, oh, I feel like I'm kind of getting it. And maybe when you responded in a way, uh, and I want maybe, but I should ask both of you actually, when you responded away where

Desi was like, ah, yes, you get it now. Yeah. I, so I don't know if there was a breakthrough moment. I think this is think this is small steps in the right direction over a really long period of time. And so I think the thing that changed that was that was my eye-opening experience to realize that I have to get out from behind my lens. And because as I'm putting my lens on, it is at the time and I'm not able to see her. And so that was, I think the first time that I really tried to step out of my lens. And the more that happens, especially in a relationship

with the safety of dating and then engagement and then marriage, with that, it's easier to step up behind your lens and really get vulnerable. And also kind of expect that from the other person too, because it's, it's, it's vulnerable to step out of your comfort zone. It's also vulnerable to step out of the other person's comfort zone and be able to share it well. So I don't, I don't think there was a, a moment that was like, got it right. There we go. I think it was just slowly over time.

It was lesson after lesson. This one was one lesson of just my surroundings mean something different to me than they do to my girlfriend at the time. And understanding just that the surroundings can look different says something. And then later conversations going to what it is he was just talking about with, for example, why does everything have to do with race? That type of question. Somebody, a black person says,

whatever is it? Was that racism? And then we as white people immediately say, well, I'm not racist. And so that whole thing where the learning, learning the question of, does this have to do with race is backed by that whole story, a lifetime of experiences and some of them being really honest experiences, some of them being experiences full of gaslighting and manipulation of the thoughts and what's happening. And so getting into this type of a conversation, I realized for today's day has so much behind it. And then for me also, there's so much behind it too, just from the White House perspective.

And so that's just like, that's another one of those steps. And so I think it takes a lot of those steps to start to realize, or to start to get to the point where you can say, okay, I realize that I don't know everything that's going on, but I can actually take, is this question of does race have anything to do with this? As a quick question, because now I understand, just because I know her better, that hey,

she actually just needs me to answer this question because I know her better that, hey, she actually just needs me to answer this question because it's a question that she has because of that those gymnastics that she was just talking about. Does this have anything to do with race? Are they just looking at us because we're an actual couple? Do they like my dress? Do they like my hair? Are they going to untouch my hair?

Are they going to whatever XYZ? Which I think is kind of a bag of burns. But so that's, I think just getting along that process to get to the point where you can start to understand this is what's going on is not a waiting-bolt moment. It takes a long time. Can we flip it around? I'm curious if you've had-

I would agree. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I would imagine the majority of your social engagements along these lines are what we've been talking about, but have you been in a context where maybe, I don't know, maybe it's bringing Chad home or whatever, or like where you've been in spaces where people look at Chad is like, what are you, what are you doing with the white boy? And how do you guys handle that? Is that

the same thing or is that different? Is that different? It is different, but I'll let you take it. But it is different. Yeah. It's different for us. I would say individually it's different for all the different reasons. And as a couple, I think it's different for us for different reasons than maybe another couple. But yeah, the the one that sticks out to me the most for me bringing child, so to speak, is a loved one of mine saying that we already had at that point, we already had two, yeah, two interracial marriages, already

in the family. And a joke was made. I was hoping you'd even have a black man because we already have enough white people. We already picked up a couple lights. And that was eventually a commonness for Albee. I don't think I meant to bring it up. That was eventually a commonness for Alphys. I don't think I even had to bring it up. No, I think it was based on leaders. Yeah. That was honestly the worst of it on my side of the family, unless I'm kids.

Well, yeah. As far as like a big white something set overtly. I don't think there haven't been hurtful moments. Maybe let's put it that way. So the difference is, is the history, right? There's so much racism that's so negative and so hurtful. For me as a white dude, I've been able to live in ignorance is bliss for so long that if something hits me, I'm like, Oh crap, I didn't know that was even a thing. Well, whatever. I keep

moving. Right? So, so that's why it's different just because there's not as much negative emotion around it. But there, I think about most experiences when I'm coming into a space, into a predominantly or fully black space, even if eyes come on me, it's sure maybe there's been times where I've felt this kind of prove it moment, but nothing has ever been that. I do remember, I forget where we were visiting, but we were in a predominantly black city. And we definitely got more looks then from black people than we got for white people, which was flipped from where we lived in Denver at the time. That was an interesting one. That was really strange so that we hadn't we hadn't gotten that. I was where we lived in Denver. My black friends just all loved him and everything in Denver and so that was

like a oh yep we almost forget that it can go both ways in a sense. And then we were recently in a Black-owned restaurant and after we left, I asked Chad, was that guy, the guy that was helping us, or like our server, was he treating you a certain way? I forget what I asked you exactly, but I asked about it. Yeah, you're a big and sub-tie. I just wanted to know Rub his side because he it's interesting how much he will ask me that when it's you know, the majority the reality is the majority is that that happens to me and not Chad usually.

And so I think you were even kind of like, Oh, what do you think about that? That one was more recent. So I actually sure I said to you, yeah, he was definitely Colton. Yeah. But so for the purposes of your question, Preston, sure, some things happen, but it's not like a, yeah, it doesn't flip in a bad way.

Just thinking out loud, and correct me if I'm wrong, I mean, it's hard to detach maybe those individual one-off experiences from the larger social historical dynamics of hashtag slavery, Jim Crow, like so, so, and white people historically and you know, perhaps even today, I'm holding a lot more power just by being white and male and everything. So I see you're, you're coming at this individual experience with a whole different context, not to diminish, maybe legitimate coldness, the legitimate soft racism, the legitimate, like, why are you taking one of our black girls? You know, whatever, like they think that's that, that I'm sure is not fun and

easy, but it's, it's still categorically different given the social-historical history here. Exactly. Yeah. And you hit the nail on the head because I enter the world when I leave in the morning. I enter the world as a white man. So even if something like that happens at a restaurant, the second we leave that restaurant, 90% of the time I'm still back into my position of power, my position of privilege, maybe to put in a softer word, but I step right back out into the world that slanted toward me. And I know that I'm going to walk into the grocery store here in town and I'm probably going to hear Ed Sheeran on the radio or something. I'm going to hear some white dude singing something with an

acoustic guitar on the radio. So it's going gonna immediately come back to, okay, well, this is a comfortable spot for me. So I think that's a big point is why it doesn't affect me long term because for me, it's a short duration of something that's maybe slanted away from me. But then the second I walk into something else, 90% of the time, it's slanted right back toward me. Or for a day, everything is slanted away. And then you get another I'm like, I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym.

I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym.

I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. who you are is normal or who you are is. Yeah. It's, yeah. So how was it when you brought a daisy home to your family? Um, what was that journey like Chad? Uh, I love how casual you guys like, so my family, my family has has been very supportive largely there. Like I said, there's been some black spots. So it has been, there were hard moments. There were teaching moments. But my immediate family, like when

we, so they actually met Adaisie on our engagement trip. I proposed and then brought Adaisie home. And it was just because. Oh, wow. That's bold. It was location. So, it was location. It was also COVID as well. And so, there was a lot of factors leading up to that being the case. But I mean, they had a beautiful dinner prepared for us and opened a nice bottle of wine.

And so, I'm not going to lie and say that there were no tense moments. There absolutely have been. There's been, like I said, harder conversations. There's been things that we've needed to talk about. And a lot of it has come from a lot of these cultural blind spots and really just not understanding the dynamic of what this is and what it's turned into. And so there's been a lot of those teaching moments. It's been tiring at times and it's been hard, but also my family has tried hard to get to a point where we can actually, you know, be together and it feels good. And so, yeah. There was a lot also, Preston, leading up to bringing home like the actual, physically coming home to them

in that sense. So like a lot happened over the phone or like, you know, not in person to lead up to that coming home moment to where that's felt how it did. So I think that there's something to be said about not being afraid to do the work before you bring somebody home. You know what I'm saying?

Like, let's not be oblivious. I think Chad was so good with like, not being afraid of those tough conversations on the phone or however many they had to have that Chad had to have in order to prepare for the homecoming, so to speak, to be a celebration. And especially when it's gonna be around us getting married. And so I don't feel like you give yourself

enough credit for that. Like there was conversation after conversation and there was a letter written that was painful, but like it opened up a bigger conversation. And Chad did some research even with like, where in the Bible that it's not a sin to marry inter-ethnicly because that was a belief in a certain family member.

And there was a lot of preparation. There was a lot of prayer. There was a lot of not shying away from lot of prayer, there was a lot of not not shying away from me like, no, that's not okay, you know, on Chad's end. And to where I didn't have to really fight those bowels myself for with these new people, you have to know yet. And which is, I'm just realizing, and I'm telling this, I'm realizing how beautifully poetic that is of the Lord that I had that experience where I was in the past, I was just telling you about trying to like get this guy to see this is not cool. You don't see that to now Chad going to war for me,

for us, to where I had asked him, you know, like, I think you need to take some time to think about whether we should be together or not because of all the stuff that's coming at us from the family. And it actually almost broke us up. And for Chad to like hold my face and I'm like, I'm not going anywhere. I'm not going, you know, like, he had to like tell me because I had been, I had come from, like we talked about a little bit, a past of just not that. And so that is so, so huge in our story was Chad taking that initiative, not leaving it to me, still wanting to learn with and from me where he could.

We say this in the book too. I genuinely am so proud of how far my family has come. Because it's, I mean, I'm so grateful that my wife recognizes the work that I put in. And I know that you know this as well too, but it also took so much work from my family to step in as well. And so even though some of the questions were hard, even though some of the questions felt questions were hard, even though some of the questions felt maybe even hurtful because of my current situation, it still takes so much effort to step in like that. And so I'm so proud of how far they've come. And it's hard work to have a worldview challenge. And that's really kind of what was needed. And so

the fact that that they were able to step in and challenge a worldview that has really not been challenged much. It's, that's huge. And so it's hard work, but it's that's the reason why we're at the book, right? It's, it's really hard work to step in and, and challenge what we view and what we see and what's real to us, and then actually pull ourselves out of that hole and go into another one and say, okay, actually, this is a truth for somebody else. It's so hard to do that and then actually try to understand where it comes from. And so, yeah, it was hard work with the family,

but it was also valuable. It's worth it. And we're in a different place because of all of those hard conversations. We're all products of our social and familial and ecclesial environments too. I mean, not to take the blame off individuals who are making maybe bad choices, whatever, like responding wrongly. But I mean, we, we're all products of our environment, you know? So that's, I love that you see it that way. You know, it's like, it's not, where did you come from? But how are you getting to where you need to be? And that's hard for every, all of us, we all have that. We all have areas where we're just have absorbed our environment without realizing that some of these things are not, not helpful.

What would you, Chad, what would you, listening to me. I'm sure you're listening to me. I'm sure you're listening to me. I'm sure you're listening to me. I'm sure you're listening to me. I'm sure you're listening to me. I'm sure you're listening to me. I'm sure you're listening to me. I'm sure you're listening to me.

I'm sure you're listening to me. I'm sure you're listening to me. I'm sure you're listening to me. I'm sure you're listening to me. I'm sure you're listening to me. I'm sure you're listening to me. I'm sure you're listening to me. I'm sure you're listening to me.

I'm sure you're listening to me. I'm sure you're listening to me. I'm sure you're listening to me. I'm sure you're listening to me. I'm sure you're listening to me. I'm sure you're listening to me. I'm sure you're listening to me. I'm sure you're listening to's in that space. Yeah. I can go. So one, I don't think it necessarily even needs to be an interracial relationship. I mean, sure, it's great to have romantic interracial

relationships. But hopefully, the lessons that we talk about in our book is for the coworker, is for the friend, is for any type of relationship that makes you cross racial boundaries. But I think honestly, the number one thing is learning to let your defenses come down and listen well. Because the second I get defensive,

I'm now superimposing what I think should be happening in this situation onto that human and not letting them beat themselves, right? I'm making myself the standard and diminishing their own experience, right? So if I can let my defenses come down and just hear what the person has to say, now I'm actually gonna start to get a picture of their lens. That's hard to do, but it's so important because if we don't do that, like I've already said

it, we're not going to be able to step into their shoes. That person isn't going to feel safe with us. If I get defensive, then now I've turned a vulnerable moment into a bad situation. So think about it in marriage, right? If my wife comes to me and says, Hey, that was hurtful. And then I say, but you didn't see what I meant by that. Right? Like, sure, maybe she didn't. But also, if I, if, if, if I say you didn't see what I meant by that, I am also saying,

I don't see what you mean by that. Right? It's so just butt heads, and we didn't need to. So yeah, laying defenses come down. Yeah, one of the biggest things that I'd have learned, so that I will say is, my biggest piece of advice is to get comfortable being uncomfortable. Like, we humans hate discomfort. We avoid it by all means. At least that's our, that's probably our human nature is to do that. And even with for me with my mind games that I was talking about, the Lord has had to teach me to even just let, let them be unanswered even and just be set in the discomfort

and learn to not even let them not let them affect me so much, not care about me, thanks so much, which is uncomfortable for me. Like I don't care what you think, I don't have a life for you to like me, or approve of me or whatever, but even sitting in the discomfort of like, people might be looking at me for a reason and I don't know why, and I can't fix that.

I can't, there's nothing I can do about it because they're way over there. The discomfort even to sit in, they're still looking. Well, I'm just trying to live with my life. Like that for me is, I hate that. I just admit a saying, people watching the video, but I feel like, hey, so much. Perhaps if I take my skateboard off and that's something the Lord is teaching me, you will sit in discomfort so you learn to lean on me. You learn that your comfort is not in understanding and being understood. And so I would encourage anyone wanting to be like Chad said in any kind of interactive relationship, whether it's your neighbor, your co-worker, your friend, whatever, let this comfort

or it's friend, whatever, let this comfort do the less the learning or the teaching that it needs to do. When someone maybe approaches you or even says, this was my experience and it's uncomfortable because it's painful to bring them in here, that they went through that. To immediately try to like, to fix it in a sense, to say, well, maybe they just didn't, yeah. There's been a time and place for that,

but I think we skip even like green mate with each other and like, what's up? I'm so sorry. Wow. I would hate to be at your finish. Instead of skipping to, it probably didn't mean it, no. Or trying to do the chin up, butter,

cup, and it's even more or so the case when we are talking about each other, like when we confront each other and say like, hey, that was not okay. Or even if we have the nerve and the boldness to say that was racist, usually what people hear is, you're saying, I'm not racist. Like, no, I'm talking about your action, not you as a human. But it's because we're so uncomfortable with calling something or hearing the words that my action to you was racist, or at least you perceived it as racism, because of your understanding, your upbringing, your experiences, that discomfort is so awkward that we will avoid it and start saying like,

no, I didn't start ascending, instead of sitting and listening, and being like, what was it about it or why is it? And then we can learn, it'd be better for future, instead of attaching to our identity this lesson that we're trying to learn. Like instead of saying mistakes are just something I knew sometimes, we start by saying, I don't mistake.

It's because we're so uncomfortable making mistakes. So we're like, well, I can't sit in that. I have to be perfect. So we just make it about like, we go completely the opposite direction instead of sitting in the in the middle like a little bit ago. So I would just encourage people to let yourself comfortable I promise you guys got you there's you know, this comfort that God is not stronger than that you can't believe you for humbly like humility is so

important in this. So if we are okay, it won't last I don't I mean, race conversations can be very uncomfortable. I'm curious and I'm trying to figure out the best way to frame my question. I wouldn't, well, let me begin by saying I have, I have, I have learned over the years that I didn't just wake up realizing this, but it's taking me a long time that, yeah, I think white people generally speaking get defensive and uncomfortable with race conversations. And a lot of times we like, we want to immediately jump in and say, no, that's not racism. No, that's not, you know, um, or if we're called the racist or, you know, especially in the sense that you said it as a, like, like, not, not saying you are intrinsically just categorically racist, but that action, even it was unintentional, that is, has racist undertones to it or how we want to put it, you know, I think, well,

I think a legitimate question that white people, not just white people, but people, mostly white people have is like, the hard thing is sometimes that term racist can be difficult because is Hitler a racist? Yes. Um, we're slave owners, racist. Yes. And then you can get maybe a couple steps down, maybe, you know, Donald Trump is sometimes called, you know, he says racist things, you know, whatever. And then it's like, and then I, you know, and then the person that turned out the restaurant to linger a little bit too long, they're racist. Like we have one term to describe all those. And I think sometimes people were like, wait a minute. I did something that's on par with the Holocaust because it's the same term,

you know, and, and maybe, you know, soft racism or maybe just, I mean, even by microaggression, sometimes that, that term can be tricky, but I think that that's sometimes when white people get defensive. I think that that can be the frustration is they feel like they're being put in this case, even their unintentional action is being put in a category of like the Holocaust. Cause it's like, we have one term for all these things. Have you got, I'm just, I'm literally thinking out loud right now. Do you guys have any, like, what do you think about that? I mean, do we-

Yeah. That's Steve. That's a great question. I think it's hard because I do think that that's where, like you said, mostly us as white people go. So we also live in a hyper individualistic society too, right? So everything that is said now becomes internalized. And so it's hard to reconcile the nuances of understanding, hey, we live in a society that has preferences. We live in a society where things go a certain way more often than they go another way. And so the racist term or the racist conversation most of the time is actually pointing to a cultural idea, not an individual, right?

And so that, I think that's the hard thing when we live in a really individualistic society, because if we say that's racist, my ear will hear, my brain will hear, you are racist because I'm trained to think everything that is being said to me is about me. Right? But that's not the case, right?

So when somebody says that's racist or this has some, or what does this have to do with race? It's in a similar framework of, hey, that's racist because that culturally puts me in a different place than you do, or then it puts you. So yeah, I think it's hard because it is so natural for us to think about it in an individualistic way. But this is one of those times that I think we just need to learn that this conversation is bigger than me. That's good. That's good. Yeah, that's such a good point, Preston. I've never even thought of it specifically like that. The way that you wrote it down. There are so many different

way levels. I hate that, but kind of. Levels are weird. Yeah. Yeah. Like we're in a game and you have to level up. Super Mario Brothers Brothers level three. I don't know if that's a thing. I don't know if that's a thing. Uh, but yeah, that's a really good point. I, I think that's important for even all of us to realize that's what happens in our brains because even even me saying like the word feels feels so like deep and heavy and if I want to approach somebody about something I actually try not to use it but sometimes you can't really avoid it but especially if you want them to get the point of what you're saying but I totally acknowledge with you that there it's such a buzzword for so many deep reasons and so that's that's an important conversation even within interracial relationships of any kind whether it's you know marriage or co-worker or whatever to kind of like

learn each other's experience even with the word I think would be helpful to realize like hey I'm not calling you racist. Just talking about the action or whatever it is that that is so that that could be beautiful ground to break together to understand. Okay. When I say that word, you get really triggered because of XYZ or whatever it is. All right. One last question. Let's turn the corner really quickly. Chad, what's your favorite beer? And then Daisy, I'm coming to you. Cause I know, I know, I know you're not on the same plane as, uh, as Chad is here, but, uh, it was, so I I've shifted a little bit more to whiskey of late, but I don't know. I, I'm

actually not extremely, I grew up in the northwest so I always be toward Northwestern breweries even in Colorado. I was I was craving Something from to shoot at Sarah Legion or a costy or something like that. I feel rogue Oh, bro, if I had to say one that just like gets me going it's it's the Road hazelnut brown. That's, that's just my, my go-to rogues out of Portland. It's out of Oregon, right? It's not worrying. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah them famous. Right. But their, their IPA is really good too. I mean, any IPA of Oregon or Washington is going to be good. A day's a you, you, I know you've

come a long way here. Do you have you had a taste of any? Thank you. Thank you for recognizing that. I have like, I'd like to thank my husband for helping me get to this one. I went hard for this pal. I was really hard for this palette. What was the, there was a Crickley pear one we tried recently. Oh man, if I didn't get that, I would have looked at the name, but I'm not as great with names because sometimes Chattel just tried this one, you know, so sometimes they're like, oh, this one's delicious and then the next one's better. But there was a Crickley pear, was it an IPA? No, I think it was just some sort of wheat. We moved to Arizona. So we had some, it was

a local brewery that did a Crickley pear wheat beer. It was awesome. It was just great. But that one really good. As far as you said whiskey. So I'm not switching to whiskey first. I see you There's a Earl Grey This is actually a gin but that is a gin. Oh my gosh They have whiskey then gin that's what I'm using. Well, that is one of the best One of the best gin family Jones Earl Grey That is one of the best spirits I've ever had. One of the best gins.

Family Jones Earl Grey Barrel Aged Gin. It's gin aged in an Earl Grey barrel. Family Jones, free advertising. I've never heard of this. So, it's not a huge distillery, but Family Jobs and Denver teamed up with celestial seasoning and older and celestial seasonings wanting to do an aged Earl Grey tea in one of their whiskey barrels. That's why I thought it was whiskey. Apparently the tea wasn't very good. I don't think celestial seasoning is basic anymore, but Family Jones took that barrel and aged it gin. So it's gin that has kind of like whiskey barrel undertones

plus the earl grey floral flavor. It's amazing. Yes. Sorry, that was not a whiskey. The whiskey names in my head, they're not the same thing at all. But they do have a whiskey. That's very good as well. Yeah. All right. What are your favorite? What are your favorite? I like a really hoppy yet also multi IPA, um, something a little dark, darker in color. Um, probably my favorite. Oh, what's the, uh, well, the 10 barrel apocalypse is really, really good. IPA. Um, what's the, um, two bells, two hearted ales? What am I go to IPAs? My favorite brewery is probably founders in Grand Rapids, Michigan and New Holland in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Well, it's in Holland, Michigan, but also in Grand Rapids. Grand Rapids is just a Mecca for beer. Founders has a, I'm blanking on the name now. It's like a strong ale, slightly hoppy, but just

has a perfect flavor. It's the kind of ale, slightly hoppy, but just has a perfect flavor. It's, it's the kind of flagship beer. I forget what it's called. And then dragon's milk is an Imperial stout from new Holland that I really love. But that's a heavy yeah. You gotta eat that with a spoon. I mean, it's a meal. Yeah. Yeah. You want to those fat milkshake straws and get that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you guys so much for coming on the show. Again. The book is I'll hold it up here. A white boy, black girl. What's the subtitle? What our differences could teach us one honest conversation at a time. And I do want to say upfront that at the end, I guess when I first started this book, I was like, okay, this will be good for people in interracial relationships.

But I was like, within a few pages, I was like, no, this is good for anybody. They want to understand interracial dynamics, period. And just relationships. I mean, like it's, yeah, it's such a helpful book. So I don't think there's anybody who shouldn't read this book in my opinion. So white boy, black girl, pick it up wherever books are sold. Thank you both for being on the all of the Nerd. I really, really loved this conversation. Thank you. Yeah, thank you for us. It was fun.

It was fun. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network. Hi, I'm Haven, and as long as I can remember, I have had different curiosities and thoughts and ideas that I like to explore, usually with a girlfriend over a matcha latte. But then when I had kids, I just didn't have the same time that I did before for the one-on-ones that I crave. So I started Haven the Podcast. It's a safe space for curiosity and conversation and we talk about everything from relationships to parenting to friendships to even your view of yourself and we don't have answers or solutions

but I think the power is actually in the questions. So I'd love for you to join me, Haven, the podcast. Hey, so I'm launching a new season on the podcast, The Doctor and the Nurse. World renowned brain coach, Dr. Daniel Aiman joins me as a co-host as we dive deep into the mind and the brain of everything high performance. I've been fascinated for years as I've worked with top athletes,

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on The David Nurse Show, coming at ya.