Theology in the Raw - Why Church Attendance Has Increased Among Gen Z and Millennials: David Kinnaman

Episode Date: September 11, 2025

David Kinnaman is the author of the bestselling books Faith For Exiles, Good Faith, You Lost Me and unChristian. He is CEO of Barna Group, a leading research and communications company that works with churches, nonprofits, and businesses ranging from film studios to financial services. Since 1995, David has directed interviews with more than two million individuals and overseen thousands of U.S. and global research studies. Join the Theology in the Raw community for as little as $5/month to get access to premium content.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology in the raw. My guest today is David Kinnaman, who is the author of several bestselling books, including Faith for Exiles, Good Faith, You Lost Me, and Un-Christian. David is the CEO of Barnagroup, a leading research and communication company that works with churches, non-profits and businesses, ranging from film studios to financial services. And ever since 1995, David has directed interviews with more than two million individuals and overseeing thousands of U.S. and global research research. studies. Really enjoyed this conversation. There is nobody like David Kinneman who has just a bird's eye view on macro-trans going on in the church today. And that's what we're going to discuss in this episode. So please welcome back to the show, the one and only, David Kinneman. Whenever we catch up, it's always on a live podcast. We should actually hang out in person more often. But how are you doing these days? You know, I'm doing pretty good.

Life is mixed, but mostly good. What year is this now for you at Barna? Well, it's 2025, if you're paying attention at home. Yeah, I've been here for 30, 30 years and counting. So I started in 95. So it's three decades at Barna. Three decades. Three decades. You have, do you know, how many large studies have you been a part of?

Do you have a number there or is it just too hard to count? It's probably too hard to count. I mean, it wouldn't be too hard to count. It's not like in the millions, but it's, it's thousands. And we've done a couple million, at least a couple million interviews in, in those few years. It's pretty fun. I mean, we're a social research company that basically specializes in quantitative conversations with people. And so it's a lot of, a lot of data, a lot of, you know, perspectives that we've

been able to hear from people and then to try to amplify those voices, such a privilege. I know a lot of people are familiar with your work. They probably heard you speak or tell your story. But what, what was it that drove you to want to do the very unique work that you're that you're doing? Well, you know how I think life goes. It was first a book that I read from George Barna when I was a college student at Biola. And then a friend of mine said, you should really like try to do something off campus, not just on campus. And so I was like, I think I could be an intern there. It was in Southern California. And the Barna group was located in Glendale at that time with traffic about an hour in like two to three days of driving between South LA County and

Glendale with no traffic about 27 minutes. And so, you know, I got to be an intern and just sort of like began a journey. I thought for sure I would go into local church ministry at some point and but this sort of one one week became a month and a month became a year and I got a full-time job offer after school and began to just really enjoy the work of research and you know kind of got an had an amazing you know mentor with George Barna and you know sort of bought the company from him in 2009. So I've been here. George Barna will always be George Barna. But I've been at Barna longer than he has. So, yeah, it's just been an interesting journey and, you know, just trusting the Lord's, the Lord's hand and all that.

See, I mean, you spent 30 years looking at macro trends in, in the church on so many different levels. We first got connected. I mean, I knew about you for a long time, but we worked on, well, worked on, I played a very small role in looking at your study. state of discipleship in the church. And the overall conclusion was discipleship is not really happening in the church to the degree that pastors and leaders would want to see it. What are some major, in looking at the big C church across America, what are some of the biggest things that stand out, shifts, changes, things that surprised you? Well, there are so many things that have been, I think, boiling beneath the surface, but we haven't talked in a little while.

And one of the headlines from this year is the resurgence of interest in Jesus. So we have seen a steady multi-year incline in the percentage of Americans who say they made a personal commitment to Jesus Christ that is still important in their life. It's currently 66%. Two out of three American adults say they made a personal commitment to Christ that's still important in their life. That stat should just blow our minds because even at the low point, which was five years ago, was 54%. And that particular number, which was about 69% when I started at Barnah, so it's kind of gone up and down and it was at a low point just a few years ago, should really shock us because I think most of us think we're living in a very post-Christian or very non-Christian world.

But the facts on the ground are that most people consider themselves to be Jesus followers, even if that's a very lightweight question. and we acknowledge that it's a it's a lightweight one but people are very simple like i i don't know sometimes for those of us who are you know listening to a podcast or on a podcast or you know wondering about a podcast most people just don't think very very complicated thoughts i don't mean that to be critical it's just people people tend to live a pretty pretty basic life and i think that's a really good thing for a lot of people and um and so so so am i right like i'm just like people don't think about the the heady ideas of ideas and concepts and social research

or theology for that matter. And so the fact is that that two out of three Americans say they've made a commitment to Jesus that's still important in their life should just really like strike us to the bone, which is partly your, you talk about in terms of the discipleship gap, people are Jesus followers, but not necessarily disciples. And so I think this is really good news, though, because, you know, the headline is that we have seen this, you know, many decade decline in commitment to Jesus. Jesus. But the last few years, that's increased. There are 30 million more Americans today who say

they're open to Jesus than was true just five years ago. Huge, huge changes among young people, young men. That's just not what social researchers have on their bingo card, which is like a positive return to Jesus or religious trends, much less being driven by young people and young men. That's a pretty surprising set of findings. And it's not just an increase among people that say they're a Christian, but there's actually been an increase in church attendance, right? You just did a study shifting church engagement that I think just, I think just came out recently. It showed an uptick in U.S. church attendance as well. Well, what that is telling us is a very particular thing.

It's showing that the percentage among churchgoers. So as a, you know, imagine you're looking at some sort of population. And so you're going to look just at one group of people, like just men. or you're going to look just at women. And so we looked just at churchgoers. And what we found is that there is an uptick in in young adults, millennials and Gen Z, in the frequency of times per week that these churchgoers attend. So back in the early 2000s, boomers were coming more than two times a week, two times a month

to church. So two, you know, like a pretty more than half the weekends, they would be at church. but that is steadily declined and younger generations come come have come much less frequently which is part of the discipleship gap like how can you learn to grow if you just come you know one time a month but what we're seeing is that millennials and gen z are increasing in their frequency among among the gen z and millennial churchgoers so among all millennials and all gen z there's still a decline of overall church attendance as best we can understand it but among churchgoing gen z and millennials there's a real increase And that is something to be noted. It's the first time we've seen that like millennials are more, more frequent churchgoers than Gen X or boomers. So that's a real, another real shift that says there's some interesting vitality that's happening among younger generations.

And that, so the sort of, if I understand this correctly and correct me if I'm wrong, like the secular, you kind of had this like typical rhythm of, you know, people go to church with their families when they're young. Then when they get there, they kind of early 20s, a lot of times they leave church. And a lot of people come back once they get married, settled down, whatever. And then you see a kind of resurgence of coming back to church. Has that been generally true? And is that trend you're saying differently now?

I guess it's two questions that might depend on. Yeah. So, I mean, I think that that whole narrative that you just walk through should go the way of the Dodo Bird. Because what I have found for. many decades, even a project called You Lost Me a number of years ago, so many pastors kind of go to that idea. Like, hey, you know, someone's going to be an active churchgoer as a teenager, then they're going to drop out, and then they're going to come back when they have kids. Listen, I mean, does that happen for some families and some people? Yes. But what's especially

happening, demographically, is that people are not getting married and having kids at the same rate, the same ages. All that's being sort of pushed to later and later ages. So the very nature of being a 20-something is very different than it was a generation or two ago. And furthermore, and more importantly, the data is telling us that young people and young men, even in their 20s, are coming to church. We're seeing both in the data and testimonially, some really surprising, you know, whether they're married or unmarried, like we don't have to wait for the trigger of them being married to be interested in church. There's some real, um, layers to that. I mean, there's also a corresponding decline of Christian commitment among young

women. So young women are actually struggling in some ways with the church, especially young single women. And so again, a lot of these narratives about like when does a person ready for a church experience and when they're not, some of those maybe age old tropes aren't working quite the way they used to. I've got too. Well, I want to ask about the young women thing. That's really fascinating. But before I do, in terms of the uptick, uptick and church involvement, is that across all denominations, denominations, is it like mainline churches, conservative churches, is it across the board? Is it ethnically different, you know, with different churches? Yeah, it's the nature of the research that we're reporting on is just among all U.S.

churchgoers. So it would reflect both Protestant and Catholic experience. It would be multi-ethnic and its implications. I think there are some specific things that we have seen. Like, for example, black Americans are still the most likely segment to do virtual church. And yeah, they are. And I think one of the reasons we don't actually have a lot of like specific evidence of this, but some of our black leader friends say it's because black churches are so long. Black church services are so long.

that a person can still watch and participate and then they don't have to be, you know, as, as, as, as, as, uh, it's not as big a time time commitment. So that might be a really interesting kind of post-COVID factor that black Americans still are, are more likely to use, uh, hybrid or virtual worship. Um, but yeah, I think what this is telling us is, you know, there, there's something, um, there's something about the last few years back in late 2020. we did a study, and we called it the spiritually open project. And we asked Americans, are you more open to God than today than you were before the pandemic? So this was, you know, two and a half, three years after the pandemic. And millennials that were at almost three out of five who said yes. I'm sorry, Gen Z.

Millennials were over half. And it was Gen Xers and Boomers who were less than half. In fact, boomers only a third said they were more open to God than before the pandemic. And I remember asking a researcher, like, where do we get this data? Where do we get these millennials? Where are these Gen Zers from? And that was among a couple of indications. We also did a big global study among teenagers.

We ended up calling it the open generation because there was these kind of signs of life of spiritual vitality and openness to the Christian scriptures. So we've been tracking this for a few years that something has been kind of shifting in the spiritual landscape of American and global adults. And again, there's research is a little limited in answering the why questions, but it does tell us a little bit more about the what. You can, you can reliably predict, even if people are misrepresenting their perspectives, ideas, thoughts, they're reliably misrepresenting those to us each year. So you can kind of track how they're thinking about the world. And, you know, I think it's just been, it's been a really fun eight months for us as a researcher, as researchers to be able to.

report on some good news because there's something that's sort of bubbling up, sort of, you know, something, it's like these deep waters are being stirred. And, you know, whether it's people are coming to the end of kind of secularism's false promises, whether there are, you know, whether the big media efforts like the chosen and he gets us and other other factors, campus renewal movements, you know, whether there is some, like, I think there is some, we don't have specific data about this, but correlation between kind of the political world where the rise of podcasting, you know, and Joe Rogan and Jordan Peterson, and it sort of feels like there's kind of a moment when socially people are questioning things, especially men, especially

younger men. You know, there's all sorts of interesting questions that I think could be raised about why, but this is one of these moments. I think we've actually been praying for for many years, right? Like, could it be possible that more people would be open Jesus today than last year than the year before? And for the first time in my 30 years of doing this, there is a real sort of resurgence in a multiple different religious indicators that says something is happening that's different. It doesn't mean like, you know, the whole culture is being renewed and, you know, like everyone's going to become the kind of deep, full-throated Christians that we might all. hope to see. But there's something really happening that's a pretty, it's pretty cool. It's a spiritually open moment that we should really thank the Lord for. Do we know what's causing that?

I mean, like, you know, a lot of this is happening post-pandemic. Is it when a pandemic hits, people start asking deeper questions? Is it as simple as that? Or what are your, what are your theories? Yeah. Like I said, I think it's hard to know the wise, but certainly there's, I think the pandemic stripped away some things from younger generations and caused them to ask some different questions. It reoriented us towards hybrid work and, you know, all sorts of addictions and mental health issues were pulled forward. You know, I think this, you know, how certain kinds of things kind of blew back like concert going and travel and, you know, like you kind of suppress a certain part of our collective humanity. and some things get, like, they resurge, they come back with a vengeance.

And so I think there's something about that, that there has been a kind of a set of collective questions that are being asked. And then, you know, and again, we don't have direct evidence of this, but, you know, I do think that some of these larger media property, like the chosen, you know, is one of the most successful forms of Christian media and many, many decades, maybe of all time.

and a stream program on the life and work of Jesus, which allows you to kind of immerse yourself in the world building of that time period in a different way than just a short, you know, just a 90-minute or two-hour movie on the life of Jesus. You know, and of course, Jonathan Rumi and his portrayal of Jesus is such a, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a very beautiful depiction. So I think there's all sorts of things that are happening that are giving people, a new set of questions. And our challenge is, like, can the church rise to the moment of not wasting this spiritually open opportunity? The Exiles in Babylon Conference is back, April 30th to May 2nd, 206 in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Oh,

my word, this is going to be an incredible conference. Listen to some of the topics and speakers. We got Shane Claiborne and Dr. Paul Copan. They're going to engage in a dialogical debate about Christians in war. Doctors, Sandy Rick. and Peter ends are also having a dialogical debate about the question, is the Bible historically reliable? We're also going to discuss the gospel and immigration with Matthew Sorens and Liliana Reza from World Relief. We're also talking about the gospel and mental health. We're planning, in addition to all this, a pre-conference on AI and the church. So, yeah, you know, we're going to tackle all the easy topics. Street Hymbs is going to be there again.

Evan Wickham and Jason and Tanika Wyatt will lead us in worship. We're going to have breakout. sessions, after parties, and of course, a special gathering for the theology in the raw community. Check it out at theology in the raw.com. And we also have early bird registrations, okay, where you can get a discount on your ticket. Okay, that's theology and raw.com. I cannot wait for this conference, and I hope to see you there. With the increase in church attendance, I could hear a skeptic, and maybe this is, maybe I'm the skeptic. I could hear somebody say, kind of roll their eyes and say, so what?

Like, okay, more bodies are filling church services. Like, what if, you know, most of these increased church services are like fostering a kind of like Christian nationalism or what if they're just not discipling people well? Like what just because you're attending church doesn't really mean anything unless we see actual, robust, countercultural discipleship and mission happening. What's your, and it's hard to measure, well, I don't know. Can we even measure like healthy church attendance? Of course, people are going to disagree on how to measure that.

But, I mean, can we even measure whether or not that increase in church attendance is good for the mission of the church, if that makes sense? Well, so you're asking a researcher, can you measure something? And the answer is, of course, with the right tools and the right and the right. caveats because you can measure a lot. You also, in the end, can only measure what you measure. But on that whole subject, one of the things we've been working on for a few years is a thing called the Thriving Church Institute, where we break the work of a very effective, faithful church into 15 different dimensions.

I think a lot of leaders, my somewhat cynical perspective, and it's just sort of me being honest after 30 years of research, is that local churches are really good at event management, 52 times a year plus, you know, special events. They're good at shuttling bodies into and out of a building. And is that the same as discipleship, of course not. It also is true that a person who's at church more frequently is more likely to have signs of spiritual transformation than someone who is not there very frequently. But more importantly, the key is the number of relational connections that a person has in an intentional manner in their household, in a small group or closely connected, a group of like-minded Christians, and a mentor. So those three, only 12 percent of all Christians have a warm,

supportive household, small group, and mentors, so about one and every eight. And those 12 percent are are far in a way, their discipleship results are far and away higher than someone who's in only two or one or none of those kind of relationally formative experiences. So relationships catalyze growth, the most important way that we could measure and track what might be happening in our church or in our household is how closely are people connected in with others who are either a little ahead on the track, either in age or spiritual journey, but they're modeling prayer, they're being transformed by someone else's faithful story. And that seems to be the most important thing we can do to sort of measure and be faithful

to make sure that our churches are actually disciplining people in a kind of a whole life discipleship manner. Yeah, that makes sense. Let's go back to the increase in younger men. attending church and decrease in younger females? What's going on there? That seems different than what we've seen in the past, right? Exactly. And that goes back to something I said, you know, maybe 10 minutes ago, which is that the idea that just people are going to be, that they go through a life stage of spiritual growth and so don't worry about them because

they'll kind of grow, they'll grow into Christianity. Well, it turns boomers are growing out of Christianity. So like, that's not working. And young people are not necessarily growing into Christianity. Young women aren't necessarily growing into Christianity. And there are lots and lots of social research on why this might be, but there is a whole different economics of male, female relationships and the kind of, they call it a romantic recession. People aren't getting married. They're not looking for a partner. I've been single now five years and just like living in the single world since being married for 25 has been like, oh, wow, yeah, it's a whole different world. 97% of pastors are married and have had kids and there's just like a one kind of a monolithic vision of what Christian ministry needs to look like.

But we don't have enough singles in ministry and on stages. Nothing against married, married and my married friends. But we need more singles, more celibate singles in ministry and on stages because that is more than half of our society. So I think the there's a bit we could talk about the whole. male-female divide among young people today, but one of the interesting things is that men are tending in our society to become more politically conservative the last number of years. Women are becoming more politically progressive, again, just broad stroke. And churches tend to work, at least our experience of most evangelical churches.

They work much better for political conservatives than they do for political progressive. so women are finding a little bit, they're out of step, they don't, they don't fit in congregations in quite the same way. And so that's just one of them, but like even the questions of volunteerism, women are only half as likely to volunteer compared to 25 years ago, Christian women. They don't want to be the church's free labor anymore in the same way that they might have in the past. You know, obviously questions of abuse and how church communities respond and respond well or not well to questions. of abuse within the church. There's just lots of different things, but this should be a real wake-up call

that even as there's a moment of spiritual openness, a lot of the people who are having a lot of questions about the church and its importance, its relevance, and its meaning to them are young women. And so I think there's some really fascinating trends that are bubbling up on that front. that makes sense with yeah especially with the abuse thing being so public and now more more women have a voice whereas in the past I could see where they would just grind it out stay in church whatever but now I could see they again we're speaking in generalities but maybe feel more empowered to say man if I don't feel safe at church or if I don't feel like or if I'm being dehumanized or if there's like abuse cover up going to the church I'm just not going to go to church then like I could see at least in some cases that that being a real. unfortunately well i mean every single individual i mean one of the things in learning uh about so much

through the years as a researcher is that every every person's story is so unique and you know again we're trying to talk in these broad strokes even the notion of talking about different generations you know we we make up these designations anyway like no one's actually born a gen z or born or born a millennial or any of that so um you know we're trying as best we can as human beings to put categories and labels and, you know, descriptors and, you know, there's, there's, you know, important work to do there. But the most important thing is that behind every statistic is a story and every person matters. And I think this is some of the profundity, the, the, the power of the Christian scriptures when Jesus says, you know, if, if 99 are lost and one is, uh, 99 are, or

are safe and one is lost, um, you know, it's like 99% if 99% are just doing great, but one, 1% are missing in action. What would we do? What wouldn't we do to go find that person? And I think that reflects something of the heart of the mission of the church is to understand and restore people back to their original purpose. I've been thinking quite a bit about this as another part of our opportunity as the church is this rich theology of being a masterpiece created in Christ Jesus to do good work, Ephesians 210. And I think one of the our challenges and one of our opportunities is not just to be an event management organization, but to be a human development, a masterpiece development organization where each person is

known, their gifts are put on full display, their brokenness is restored in Christ. And we have a lot of work, even in small and mid-sized churches. I mean, megachurches, this is not even like a church size question, because I think sometimes megachurches do a better job at treating people. people as individuals and as persons, even small groups, small churches you can kind of go into and sort of feel like, you know, you're kind of stepping into a whole different kind of experience. So there's nothing right or wrong about the size of the church. But I do believe that we've missed the opportunity of personalizing ministry to each individual. And I've been really reflecting recently on like 2 Timothy 1, for example, where Paul, who is the mentor

relational connected ministry is like reminding Timothy of his his mother and his grandmother and his spiritual gifts and not to be anxious because God has not given us a spirit of fear but of love power love and sound mind and like that whole letter like the the personalization of Paul writing to Timothy in that manner that is a window into what every church every small group every mentoring relationship every disciple maker would have would know about the people that god has called them to make a difference in their lives to do like where'd you come from what do you hear for where are you going suffering later in that scripture he says like like don't be afraid of suffering because that's part of the gospel message anyway and i just think there's like that's not

really true of a lot of church leaders they don't know people in that man or like you know we know what a person might do, like, oh, they're a lawyer or they're an educator or they're a homemaker. But we have a, I think, a lack of understanding the personal story that each person has. So that's my challenge to us as a church today. We have to outrun the algorithms who are going to know us better than we know ourselves. And we have to prove that the Christian community can actually be a place of gift identification, of masterpiece restoration, of, you know, calling us into the greatness that God has made us to be. That's good. I want to shift gears just slightly and ask a question about podcasting.

Let's do it. Because since, since COVID, especially, podcasts have just really taken off. They were already on the rise, but they, everybody I talked to says their audience doubled or tripled, you know, through COVID, for obvious reasons. But they seem to keep increasing. You have a lot more independent news outlets that are primarily on a podcast or YouTube and and obviously Christian podcasts or keep, you know, seem to keep growing. Is podcasting, has that been good for the church, bad for the church, or neutral? And I don't know if you've measured this, but I would be happy for you to think out loud because I know you think through these kinds of trends on a macro level anyway.

Yeah. I think it's been mostly good for the church. And I do think there are some negatives, which we could, let's lead with those. You know, I think I call it the gospel according to YouTube, meaning that I think, I think social media in general, and by the way, there are some very profound as Jonathan Haid and the anxious generation and some of those who are saying, you know, technology, big tech does not have humanity's best interest really at heart. They're not, they're not actively trying to destroy humanity, but they're certainly, they're certainly not helping. I was just looking at Jonathan Haidt's Instagram last night, showing how. they they signed up on Instagram as a 13 year old you know like as a 13 year old girl just to see what would happen and like without picking any um content like you know stuff on on eating disorders and

all sorts of really challenging stuff just starts showing up as just a regular use case so the algorithms are designed to drive engagement and interest and we as a human race are fascinated by all all sorts of things. So the fact that a 13-year-old anonymous girl can sign up and get a steady stream of pretty toxic content is just, it tells us something about the state of technology. So in general, social media is challenging. In general, podcasts can certainly have a kind of deep relationship with people, podcasters, that is, you know, it's like you're in someone's ears all the time. You're in there. I listen to a great podcast about longevity. called The Drive with Peter Attia.

Oh, yeah. I love Peter Attia. Yeah, these long, you know, long form podcasts around the most arcane details of titration rates. Like, who knew? And so the benefit, that gets to the benefit, which I actually think these long form, like, conversations are such powerful forms of media because they're unpredictably. Um, you know, they're, they're unpredictable, unpredictably sticky. They, they allow us to have these conversations that just wouldn't be possible in a, um, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a theater, in a typical congregation, in a typical audience. And, and so I think, um, you know, my, my, this goes along with some of my

other big hope for the church that, that long form conversations and long form, like just look at how Joe Rogan or Jordan Peterson are forming these deep relationships with just millions of people because we're hungry for a cohesive narrative, whether you agree or disagree with those particular podcasts, people are looking for rabbit holes to go down. They want to be informed, educated. My daughter, Emily, sent me some Kendrick Lamar podcast after the Super Bowl. like here you got to understand some of the background behind you know the the super bowl halftime show and so you know like 15 hours later like you know it's like there's so much content and i think that's a i think that's a real like interesting benefit to humanity that it we have a we have a

a slice a media format like podcasting that actually helps us to go down those kinds of rabbit holes let's have that more for theology let's let's take two out of three americans who believe they've made a commitment to Jesus, let's, let's give them a whole education via podcast, a kind of, you know, a seminary degree in a box, seminary in a podcast, and give them a sense like, how do all these things hold together? And I think there's a real opportunity for that kind of deep dive education, because sermons, as important as they are, are not sufficient for the kind of educating the heart and mind for the long haul. Let me, let me unpack it just for a minute. Because what I mean to say is, like, I think the church has these, we have these different rhetorical tools, right?

So just like training, just like life, you've got, you know, you've got your daily diet of what you're going to eat. And I believe sermons are sort of like the daily bread, you know, the ways we can consume our faith. When we preach, we Christ walks among us. And there is a place for preaching as part of the rhetorical tool belt, the tool set of the church. but in addition to that, we need education, experience, counseling, all sorts of other ways to learn and grow. And you're just not going to cover all the topics known to man, known to humankind in a sermon. And so people are coming less than half the weekends. So, you know, I think we need different rhetorical tools to educate and disciple this generation is the bottom one.

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It features prominent experts and parents who have thought deeply about these questions like Jackie Hill and Preston Perry, John Mark Comer, Dan Allender, John Tyson, Kurt Thompson, Julia Sedesky, and many more. And it's hosted by my friend and colleague at the center, Lori Krieg. Honestly, you guys, we've produced a lot of resources at the center, but I have to say this one is uniquely incredible. Check out Christian sexuality raising kids by going to centerforfaith.com. And if you pre-order it before September 16th, that's what it releases, you'll get a 15% off discount. That's center for faith.com.

In this day and age, disciple in our kids in conversations about sex, sexuality, gender is not an option. But it doesn't need to be terrifying. Christian sexuality, raising kids at center for faith.com. The long-form nature of popular podcasts, did that take people by surprise? Like that things keep, you know, our attention span is getting smaller. It's, you know, TikTok is, you know, just TikTok and YouTube and all the, you know, reels and all these things. Everything's so fast and short. And it seems that that's the dominant trend. But podcasts or YouTube to some extent, the popularity of long form to me seems counterintuitive. I just listen to or I am

listening to a 10-hour conversation between one of my favorite podcasters, Lex Friedman, with one of my favorite foreign policy gurus, Scott Horton. It's a 10-hour conversation. I think it happened. I don't know if it happened in one day, but it's like, you don't, I think they took having breaks, but I mean, how in the world, or, you know, Rogan is an obvious example, two, three, four hours, sometimes bantering around with his friends for four hours. And I'm like, what, like, that is so counterintuitive.

What's at the heart of that? Like, what, why in our soundbite culture, our long-form podcasts, becoming so popular? Well, I think we maybe covered it earlier, and it's fun to do podcasts like this, conversations, because I hadn't thought of it this way before. Maybe this is true. Maybe it's not. But here you go.

Remember how we were talking earlier that when something is suppressed in a society, there is a blowback towards the other extreme. And so, you know, gathering for most of 2020 was suppressed. and then in 2021, 2022, 23, there was a blowback of people traveling and concert going. Theaters didn't come back in quite the same way, although there's some modicized. I think churches are now starting to see some of that blowback. But I think that with the soundbite culture and with this kind of like shortening of attention spans, there's a blowback that's like, wait, that's not the only way to be human.

There's got to be something deep to digest. So I think there's something about that kind of, you know, trend, counter trend, the yin and the yang, the, the, you know, the good, good and evil or whatever. There's always sort of like an equal for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction. And I think there's something about long form content being a kind of response to a lot of packaged content, right? Like nightly news, you know, like if you think back to the the heyday of the. nightly news or, you know, whatever, like, we got, we got 90 seconds, you got 37 seconds. You know, like, so, like, you know, that was, that was fine for a 22-minute broadcast when you're supposed to understand the world and all of its current events with Peter Jennings

or Tom Brocah or whatever. But now, now we realize, like, the, the, the, the, the, the, confining variable isn't, you know, our advertising slot and our, and our broadcast, you know, costs, but, you know, how long people are going to stay engaged. I think there's some of these kinds of competing forces that are always at work in our society. So that, to me, would be my answer. People are, are actually looking for something that feels, you know, like there's, there's the elites and the kind of pop, you know, the, what does the, what does, you know, Jordan Peterson him's sort of an interesting guy because he's an elite, but who is sort of pushed out of the academy and the traditional way, sort of traditional education, and decided to just make his own

audience. And right, so, again, whether you like or don't like him, those are really interesting and fascinating, you know, in a world where I'd like, say, there's no rules. Here's like 12 rules for life. And, you know, people, people are looking for the pendulum swing. And I think this, this is a moment of a pendulum swing for the church. We have an opportunity to give people not just more packaged facts about Jesus, but to give them a real encounter with the long-form content that I think is going to help them become the kind of disciples that Jesus intends. And so I think we're living in a real renaissance of how the church can become this learning community for people to become, you know, fully human, not just to artificially, you know,

like their brains aren't just sort of like artificially powered. I wonder on the negative side, I wonder if part of it could be a byproduct of the loneliness epidemic, you know, especially down-to-earth podcasts. I would love to consider the Aldera in that category, you know, but even like you listen to Rogan bantering around with his friends. And for somebody who doesn't have any friends or doesn't have that kind of banter, doesn't have, you know, you kind of like live vicariously. You feel like he's your friend. You feel like you're in the living room with them, you know, because they're so down there, just talking, you know, shooting around and, and, um, but that, to me, I'm like, is that good though, you know, like, or is that,

are people trying to satisfy their loneliness in something that's, that's not, it's scratching the itch, but it's not actually fulfilling that void in the way it should? I don't know. But see, Preston, I think that's always an exercise of, of humans desire for connection and leadership. So, you know, you look at, um, communication and rhetorical. venues through the years and through the centuries like you know great orators were the leaders of their day because they were they still are today but but but when a person can stand in front of a group of people and string some words together and compel someone towards a preferable vision of the future there is a kind of connection that happens you're like oh I feel like I'm one of

remember that line from Hamilton maybe where where Aaron Burr you know campaigns for himself and and the the the lyric is like you know he seems approachable like we could have a beer with him so like there's something there's something about leadership that takes the stage in or in an oratorical context and that so electronic media radio was uh mastered by fDR and he became the fireside chats guy right like the president who would sit down next to you and tell you how how how is going to be and then and and and then you had Kennedy at the rise of television and he seemed approachable intelligent and he mastered and mastered television I think one of the untold stories about Trump is he mastered social media before at a level that

no other politician had done at his at his level again whether you like him or don't like him, he, I, someone said this to me, like FDR mastered radio, uh, Kennedy master television and, and, and Trump mastered social media and was able to use it in a, in a manner that everyone's like, he sounds like he's just, you know, he's sitting on the toilet banging out a tweet, right? Like, it's like he feels very approachable. And so, and so you, uh, you think about like, so podcasting, I think is just another revolution in the, in, in, in, in both leadership, but in human communication, and, you know, like Marshall McLuhan and, you know, Neil Postman and other, you know, the medium is the message.

All these things are like the society that's built on these mass communications, the, both the blessing and the curse and the challenge of all that. So I don't know. I kind of think this is also another opportunity for helping our younger generations who are, you know, growing up in this digitally native environment and who are probably going to have. more platform and more kind of social influence in in their own in their own way some some more some less but this notion that we're actually giving people a kind of theology of how god is going to use them and their faithful ministry in the world both embodied and online and as consumers of

content of podcasts and of television of stream programs all of these things are are adding up to a really profound moment a really cool moment where we get to figure out how to how can we be faithful in uh in as christians in this very complicated age and um that kind of you know just as an example i think i think more churches and church community should have a kind of theology of dystopian fiction right like like why is it that i mean the the bible is like the original dystopian book like at the end of all times the antichrist comes you know and like strange B, like, if you think about stranger things, this is the strangest thing, right? The book of Revelation. And it's like, why is that capture the human imagination? I actually think those

are some of the really interesting, fascinating parts of, you know, Christian theology. I was just reading this morning the different sections of Antichrist in, in Second Thessalonians, Daniel, in Revelation, in First and Second John. I was like, man, I think, I think this whole theology of like the Antichrist is a really interesting one for us to teach. about, right? And what does that mean? What does that not mean? And I think people are so interested in this stuff. And podcast, just getting back to your question, is one of the places where people can learn a great deal about a lot of different things. Yeah. No, I hope so. And I know you have to go to a couple minutes. I'm keeping my eye on your clock. Um, my question,

and this is something I ask myself is if podcast, let's just assume podcasts can be doing a lot of great things and even playing a role in discipleship. Is that coming, is that supplement? Is that supplementing in a healthy way, the role of the local church, or is it supplanting it and taking the place of it? Like, the one thing I would never want people to do with Theology Nara, in particular, is to consider me like their pastor or like, oh, I don't need to even listen to a sermon because I can listen to Theology Narah or something, you know. I, that's not, if that is happening, that is not, like, I want to serve the church, come alongside the church, help the church. But I can see, I could see.

where it could be replacing the church. But then even as I played devil's advocate with even that point, I'm like, well, my hope would be the church would then maybe step it up, have more open conversations, have a place. Because a lot of people say, gosh, you know, you talk about things in a podcast, we would never talk about in church. I'm like, well, do I stop talking about it?

Or should the church say, hey, maybe we should have more open, honest dialogue about things, you know? Well, I think it's a little bit of both. And I think if anybody's listening to theology in the raw and you perceive this to be sermons and a replacement for the kind of place of preaching and of, you know, the, the worshiping community, then I think you probably have it wrong. But it's a both hand in that I do think there's a reason why people are hungry for this long form content because the church, I've been using this concept more recently.

The church is a learning community under the authority of scripture to bring, you know, glory to God and to proclaim Jesus' message, his death. life, death, and resurrection. And like the learning community. So if we're, you know, you might think about sermons as your, as your diet, um, of spiritual content. You're kind of your, your, you know, your, your basic food groups and your three square meals a day. But I think the podcasts and many other forms of content and experience are your gym sessions. They're, they're actually like working out particular muscles. They're, they're helping you. Uh, They might be your, you know, your therapy sessions.

Your therapy sessions are not, you know, sermons, but, but your, but sermons are not therapy. And for, they're not for therapeutic purposes. They're, we have to have, I think, a very distinct set of thinking about like how different parts of the human body, you know, to be, you know, to love God with all our heart, all our mind, all our soul, all our body. And like that, that, that mission is much more than just attending church, but it's, but it's not much less than. making sure you get a good daily dose of, you know, get a good regular dose of, of sermon type content. Because that is a different kind of inspirational. It confronts things in your heart and soul. It draws a need for confession. It pulls you towards exalting Jesus as the, as the firstborn of all creation. And so I think there's a place for all this. But I think part of the reason listeners

to a podcast like this will say, oh, we don't talk about this in our church is because we have a very one-dimensional expression of church. And so I think every pastor should have a list of recommended podcasts coming out of every sermon. Like if you want to learn more about these topics, here are three podcasts that I would recommend you. And what is what, you know why that's challenging? Because a lot of pastors, rightly get critics, I mean, not rightly.

They, they, they, they, we have such a weird, codependent relationship with people who are coming to our church at times. that we're afraid of the criticism and our followers are so lit up by the wrong forms of content, i.e. politically motivated news and the like that we have a hard time just listening to content and like just imagine how complicated it would be for pastors to do that because, well, you know, I didn't agree with that one sentence, but I agreed with 37% of what he said, right? Well, that is exactly what churches are meant to, what the church is meant to do is to help people be confronted with things they agree with, things they don't agree with, to take that and subject

that to the truth of scripture. So that is one of the challenges and why we need like Christian education and why we need Christian content and media, why we need to re-envision in the church as an essential learning community for people, and why we have to become more bold in challenging people than their assumptions, even if they end up leaving our church, because we have to keep challenging them towards growing towards full maturity in Christ. And I think podcasts, among many other forms, Christian books, Christian radio. I mean, there's lots of forms in which we can continue to learn how to be more and more like Christ. And not all Christian media is necessarily doing that. Some of that is actually pointing people

towards fear and, you know, other, other, I think, anti-Christ kinds of, you know, expressions. We won't, we won't name those. But, um, David, thank you so much for being a guest at the Alderman. I would love to catch up offline sometime soon, man. Yeah, blesses on your working ministry. Yeah, thanks, man. This has been a wide range of conversation, and I hope it's been encouraging to people. I think this is such a fun moment for our faith, for following Jesus and for our kids, for this next generation.

I think there's some things bubbling up that we should really pay attention to. And just, I mean, these are the days we've been praying for. I have been for many years that God would actually, you know, bring, bring himself, bring Jesus back to the center of the cultural conversation in a very meaningful way. And I think we're here. Absolutely, man. Absolutely. All right, man.

Have a good one. Thanks, Preston. Thanks, guys. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network. Are you looking for news with a faith-based perspective? Then tune in to the pour-over today, the podcast that delivers the world's biggest news stories through a lens of faith every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.

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