Theology in the Raw - Work, Calling, and the Challenge of Leading as a Woman: Brittany Dicus

Episode Date: June 29, 2026

Brittany Dicus is a sales and marketing director for a beverage company, a master's student at Talbot School of Theology, and serves on the teaching team at Church of the Open Door in Maple Grove, MN. With one foot in the corporate world and another in the church world, Brittany has thought a lot about viewing her work as mission. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

My heart posture was, I want the title, I want the promotion. I want everyone who looks at my LinkedIn to know that I am great at my job. And so now it's less about the title and it's more about, okay, in my tiny sphere of influence, in my team, in the broader team that I'm a part of, how can I be a light for Christ that's pointing others back to Jesus, whether they even realize it or not? Hey, friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology and Raw. My guest today is my friend Brittany Dykis, who, is a sales and marketing director for a beverage company, a master's student at Talbot School

of Theology, and she's on the teaching team at Church of the Open Door in Maple Grove, Minnesota. Brittany has done a lot of thinking about the integration of faith and mission in the workplace, which is what our first half of our conversation is all about. And then we sort of switch topics. It was unplanned. And we talk about her journey as a woman in church leadership. Brittany shares some really raw and honest thoughts about her journey. there. A quick shout out to all those who are supporting Theology and Raw through Patreon. I can't thank you enough for empowering this podcast with your financial support. If you want to become a member of the Theology and the raw community, please head over to patreon.com forward slash Theology

and Raw. Okay, please welcome to the show for the first time, the one and only, Brittany Dykis. All right, Brittany, welcome to Theology and Deiore. This is so fun because we met because of Theology Ross sort of. You know, you've been this to the podcast and we've sort of joined ministry together with the exiles conference that you've been a part of. I mean, you're one of the reasons why we even started doing exiles in Minneapolis. Is that, is that correct? I mean, I don't like to credit. You're a catalyst. Teamwork makes the dream work. But yeah, I think I think I was the catalyst in reaching out to you guys and saying, hey, open door could be a great spot. And we've loved partnering with you guys. And since then, like, I have come to find out that you have done a lot of thinking and

reflection on the intersection between, you know, whatever you want to call it, work and mission, kind of dismantling the sacred, secular sacred divide, bivocational ministry. Can you, what sparked your interest in this and maybe explain what the this is for our audience? Sure, yeah. So I guess just to start sort of foundationally, a couple of things that are important to know about me. So I have a full-time job in sales and marketing for a global liquor company. And I am also in seminary part-time. So I've made the joke that if I were to ever write in autobiography, it would be called spirits and the spirit. So I'm sort of, I've been living this life since I started seminary in January of 2020, where I've sort of felt like I've had one foot in the

ministry space and another foot in the secular business space. And for me, what sparked my thinking in this space was a couple of years ago, God just started dismantling a massive heart idol that I had of my career. And I think that it's something that many people working in business in the West, in particular struggle with. You know, we're told from the time that we're very young, like work hard, get promotions, climb the ladder, ultimately make a name for yourself is the message that we're being told. But that wasn't something I had necessarily put together until a few years back. And so over the course of the last, call it two, two and a half years, God's really been

dismantling that hard idol in my life. And in doing so, it left this question of like, okay. Well, if I am not going to work Monday through Friday, striving 40, 50, 60 hours a week for the purpose of getting the next promotion or getting a title change or getting a raise, if I'm not going for those things, then why am I doing this? What is the purpose of me showing up day in and day out? And it was through that question coupled with a course that I did in seminary called Theology of Mission. that really got the juices flowing. I'm like, well, maybe the purpose of work isn't to view it as a vertical ladder to climb.

Maybe the purpose of work is to view it as a horizontal plane for outreach to point others to Jesus. And that has been a perspective shift that has absolutely changed my life and my work. Now, when people hear that, they think, oh, yeah, you know, when I go into the secular workplace, I should share the gospel people. And that's kind of the extent of their, you know, integrating their faith into their work. But it sounds like you're talking about something more than that, you know. Yeah.

Of course, share the God, you know, but like there's more to it than that, right? For sure. Well, and honestly, I actually, I actually don't think that's people's reactions. I think people's reactions is like, are you crazy? Like, this is going to be an HR violation. If I just like come into my secular workplace and start talking about Jesus to people, like, do you want me to get fired? Are you nuts?

So one of the things that I've put a lot of thought into is like, okay, how do we then, how do we show up as witnesses for Jesus? Because I think the term evangelism can get dicey, right? Like people can have sort of preconceived notions with that term of like, oh, what do you want me to do? Like stand on the street corner as my coworkers are walking into the building and shout at them that Jesus loves them. Like how is this actually going to come to life? But the reality is when we look at scripture, like we, we. are told, I just taught a few weeks ago on a passage in Acts 1 where right before Jesus' ascension, he tells the disciples, be my witnesses. The purpose of evangelism is to speak about

what you yourself have witnessed God doing in your life and how you yourself have been shaped by the work that the Holy Spirit is doing in your life and in the lives of those around you. And so if we think about that model in the workplace, yeah, it probably is, it probably would be an HR violation to just start telling people, hey, Jesus loves you and hey, you know, do you want to come to church with me if you don't have any sort of preexisting relationship with them. But these are people who we spend 40 plus hours a week with. And so if we can start with building authentic, meaningful, deep, vulnerable relationships with people, and in doing so, in the vulnerability of relationship, talk about what God is doing in our own lives in ways that

are authentic and true, that opens up a lot more doors for conversation than just coming in maybe belligerently with the purpose of what we would maybe think of as evangelism. Is it an HR violation? I mean, I know in some cases, is. Some cases it isn't. I mean, I'm not an HR professional, so I can't speak to that. But there's, I mean, people have different comfort levels with faith-based conversations, right? And I think that's actually one of the things I've noticed is like as you are sort of authentically talking about your own life or the things, you know, that you're doing with your church or the things that maybe you're learning or the things that you've written in your prayer journal or whatever.

You know, there's sort of like different levels to how deep you can go with talking about your own faith in the workplace. But what I've found is like it's literally the epitome of like the parable of the seeds that get scattered. Like some people immediately are like, I'm not interested. You can like see it in their face. And some people are like, huh. And they raise an eyebrow. And usually the conversation's done. But a lot of times they'll circle back maybe in a month or a week or a couple days.

And then other people, it's like they light up. And it's like, oh my gosh, I've found someone that I can talk to about these things that I've been wanting to ask for so long. So it's a mixed bag. I don't know if it would officially be an HR violation or not. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, probably depends. I kind of think it depends from company to company or whatever. Yeah.

Yeah, I'm sure you could do it if you're working for chick fillet or something. Fair. So say you never talk to people about Jesus at work in your 9 to 5 job. What other ways does your faith change the way you approach work? Well, it changes. your value system, right? Like, we live in a consumerism culture where identity often comes from your job. And that was the case for me for so long. Like, I remember when I was in my early 20s, just starting my career, a person that I was dating at the time would tease me because he'd be like,

you introduce yourself, comma, here's my job title. Like, do you know that that's not normal? Like, why are you identifying so strongly with your job? And so I think that that's a temptation that can happen. And so one way that folks can live out their faith is by being different, you know, by having a different set of values, by deriving their own value from something else and telling people that, right? Like, yeah, I just had a conversation yesterday with my current line manager. And he and I were talking, and I've reported him for a long time, and he and I were talking about, like, this place is never going to love you back. Like, we can love this company. We can love what we do. But a corporation is never going to love you back. And so how does that change the way that we show up and the way that we have value? I think the question is different, too, you know, if I'm asking somebody who's an employee, like you said, you know, of a company versus somebody who's running the company.

Because I've heard of some pretty amazing stories of Christians who have integrated, who own companies, who own businesses, who have integrated like a, I don't want to say, oh, yeah, kind of. I mean, like a Christian value system all the way down, like where, you know, a business prioritizes people over profits. They don't treat employees as just another cog in the machine, but as bearers of God's image. there. Even I've heard of some really radical stories of the pay structure is more, at least kind of based in part on need, not hierarchy or whatever. So I've heard of what this long time ago.

I don't even know if I remember all the details, but like a janitor was getting paid more than some higher executive because he had a bunch of kids and had more needs and stuff and the other guy didn't have as many needs and just things like that that's like the world doesn't operate that way.

No. But as an employee, like you said, it's probably a little bit harder to, yeah, I mean, you obviously have less say in how the companies run. The question I have, I've always had is, is it okay for a Christian in a secular career path to try to make as much money as they can? but then versus somebody who's in a ministry when it's like, well, yeah, you shouldn't do that. You know, if you're a Christian dentist and you're getting paid, I don't even know what dentist makes, let's say half a million dollars a year.

We'd like, of course, you're a dentist, you know, like, and, you know, you should charge, you know, whatever $2,000 for root can hour. I don't even know, you know. But like, if you're in ministry, if you're in ministry, you could already feel the secular, sacred distinction. But if you're a pastor and a church, you shouldn't get paid very much. And you shouldn't try to get paid very much. Or there's a flip side.

But people do get paid a ton and, you know, big churches or whatever. But I don't know. I've always wondered, like, does that betray a secular, sacred division between church or ministry work versus non-ministery work? Like, is the dentist not involved in ministry while the pastor? is involved in ministry? And what does that even mean? Is that a good distinction to make? Does that make sense? I don't know. Yeah, it does make sense. I mean, to answer your original question of like, is it bad to try and make as much money as possible? I think what I would say to that is, you know, the Bible is super clear again and again that our heart posture is what matters the most to

God. And so I would be, so here's the distinction that I would make personally. I am not wary of someone who makes a lot of money. There are so many folks who make a lot of money and do so much good with their financial resources. But I am wary of someone who is striving to make more money. That's like the goal to make as much money as it can. Yes. I think if it happens organically and, you know, based because of your hard work and the labor that you've put in, I think that's wonderful. And I think there's, again, so many ways that Christians can leverage their financial resources for the glory of God.

And I think it's critical that we do so when we have financial resources available to us in that way. But I think the striving to make more money pieces where like that would make my eyebrow raise a little bit. And I guess it's a slight distinction between striving to make as much money as you can versus striving to, for instance, have a successful business. Say you open a pizza restaurant and you want to make the best pizzas and highest quality. and all of a sudden start taking off and all of a sudden you have two or three or four locations. Yeah. Is it, I don't know, it's a fine line in my mind.

Like, are you trying to be bigger and better and, you know, have all this money or whatever versus I just want to make the best product and bless people with this? And also what comes with that is financial success, but that's not the main driving force. Would that be a healthy? just thinks new thing. Yeah, I think the heart posture is really the definitive characteristic of sort of what feels healthier, what maybe feels like a little bit more questionable. And so for me,

in my role and at my company, so I'm in middle management, I have a team that's under me, but I'm certainly a cog in the system. And I do not have the power to make some of the structural changes that you mentioned earlier, although it's beautiful for those corporations. that have done that. But so for me, I had to have this heart posture shift of, you know, prior to this heart idol being dismantled.

And for the record, like, still a total work in progress. Like, this is not something that I'm like showing up, having, like, defeated this heart idol.

It's something that, like, I am conscientious of every single day. And if I'm not prayerful about it, it just creeps right back. But prior to sort of going on this journey, my heart posture was like, I want,

the title. For me, it wasn't about money. For me, it was about the title and recognition. Like, I want the title. I want the promotion. I want everyone who looks at my LinkedIn to know that I am great at my job because of this role that I've achieved. And so the heart posture shift for me has been, okay, but coincidentally, I got the title after God had already dismantled this heart posture. And I was like, I don't actually want it. And he was like, well, here you go. And so now it's less about the title and it's more about, okay, how can I, in my tiny sphere of influence, in my team, in the broader team that I'm a part of, how can I be a light for Christ that's pointing others back to Jesus, whether they even realize it or not? And planting those seeds has

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We had some amazing conversations and talks about AI, immigration, mental health, and a couple different dialogical debates on the historical reliability of the Bible and another one on Christians and War. The speakers include Sandy Richter, Piedens, Shane Claiborne, Paul Copeland, Dan Allenner, Chinway Williams, Rick Heels, and many others. My favorite part of the conference, I mean, it had to be all the dialogues and Q&A portions of each session where speakers had to go off script and address some challenging questions in the moment. These raw conversations are always the best. Again, if you want to get access to the conference, check it out, theology in the raw.com. What does that look like? Would you say without explicitly saying it, but being a light for Christ?

Like what really tangibly? Like, what does that look like on Thursday morning? Yeah, totally. So it all starts with meaningful relationships. like I mentioned earlier. One thing that I've found is that one thing I love that you always say, Preston, is like the depth of your study should match the depth of your conviction. So this is kind of a play on that. The ability to have meaningful conversations about faith is directly proportionate to the depth of your relationship with someone. So for me, it's really started with like genuinely caring about people. Like what is going on in your life? What are your pain points. What are your fears? Of course, you don't get there on day one with someone, but when you

spend 40 hours a week with someone over the course of three years, like, if you do it with intention, you can learn a lot about a person and you can really start to speak to some of those fears and needs. For me, again, the sort of second step then is being super open about my own faith in a way that feels authentic. So for me, it might be, hey, what did you do this weekend? It's like, oh, well, I have a paper that's due. Oh, you have a paper? What are you going to school for? Oh, well, I'm getting my master's in Bible exposition.

So that can be sort of like a very small seed that gets planted. Or, you know, for someone who's not in seminary, it might be like, this is a real example, too. I'm really disheartened by what I see in the news and I want to do more to help refugees. Oh, okay. Well, my church is hosting an event for refugees next weekend. Do you want to come with me? that could be, you know, a real way in. So I think it really, I mean, the examples are going to be as numerous and unique as people that we interact with because every conversation and every relationship is unique and different.

But I think when we are, when we're abiding in Christ in our own faith, it's like just the natural fruit then that comes out of us in conversations with people. And I think, you know, in our culture, we're so quick to like, we're all kind of influencers in our own way. Like, we're so quick to tell people about something we bought and liked or a movie that we saw that we thought was really profound or how much we love the new Taylor Swift album, which is not a dig on Swifties. I'm the biggest Swifty. But like we're really quick to talk about the things that matter to us and the things that are impacting our lives. But for some reason, it just feels like we draw the line at our faith because it, I don't know. know if it's because it feels too personal or it feels too risky. But in my experience, when I have made small comments about my own faith, it has opened so many doors for meaningful conversations

and even deeper relationships with the people that I work with. Do you, have you gotten resistance or almost or even visceral reactions or anger where there might be a story of like pain or hurt from the previous church experience? Yeah. Yeah. I've never gotten, like, belligerent anger, but people are living their real lives, and they have, many people have real hurt either from the church or from God or feeling like they want to believe in something, but they can't get on board with this Christianity thing for a litany of reasons, right? you know, there could be resistance because of politics. I've had people be like, oh, well, are you one of those Trump or Christians? I'm like, no, definitely not. But thank you for asking so that I can tell you that I'm not. I've had, I've had someone that I work with tell me, you know, very vulnerably and very beautifully. Like, my wife died. And I was begging God in that moment to save her. And he didn't. So I don't think I can believe in that. So, yeah, I mean, there's been, it's not all rainbows and butterflies. Sure. Yeah.

But those are also meaningful conversations that you never know how they're going to grow in the future. And so they're critically important conversations to still have. What did you say to the person whose wife died and was angry died or couldn't believe in the pockets of that? Mostly I just listened and I told him. how deeply sorry I was for his loss. And the picture that I kept getting in that moment was as he was holding his wife and grieving, I just pictured Jesus right next to him, grieving with him and weeping with him because this is not the way that it's supposed to be.

And death was not supposed to be a part of the equation in this way. And, you know, he said that no one's ever said that to him before. And that's something to think about and something that's like, a different picture than what he had envisioned previously. So, you know, that's, that's one conversation of many that I've been able to have with that coworker about faith. So everything about viewing work as mission really is about sort of shifting our focus from like the immediate gratification of what maybe we view as like traditional evangelism.

and shifting it to like, no, this is like a long-term investment in people. Does your approach reshape, apart from the relationships you're involved in, but just like the aspect of like you're going, you're making, like, you're at the job to make money, right? Like to provide and like, is there still, again, I hate to use the, analogy again, but like the secular sacred, like I am here. Yes, I want to talk to people about Jesus. I want to relate to. I want to embody Christ in conversations or just how I act and all, all those things. But at the end of the day, you're there to put food on the table, right? To survive or is that okay? Or does your

faith reshape even how you think about that? Or I mean, at the end of the day, like we still have to do a good job in the workplace. Like doing a good job is in some ways what builds relational trust with people, right? Like no one, no one wants to take advice from someone who's bad at their job and who doesn't care about their job and who constantly drops balls and misses deadlines and upsets people in the workplace, right? Like that's not a great witness, actually. So I'm fully aware. Like my job is to drive share in the marketplace and to increase. sales and to drive shareholder value. Like, that is my job.

And I genuinely enjoy my job. Like, I do love what I do. I love the way that it stretches my brain. And I love that I get to use a different part of my brain than I do when I'm, you know, thinking about teaching or ministry stuff. I really love sales and marketing in the commercial landscape. I do. And also, like, the, no.

Most people, I don't want to say everyone, but like most people in their jobs, they don't just show up, sit down, do their job for eight hours, talk to no one and leave. That's not normal. Like it is normal to have relationships with the people that you're working with day in and day out. And so I guess what I'm getting at is I really believe that Christians in the secular workplace have a responsibility to think well and think biblically about those. relationships and the workplace. Do you ever wrestle with the tension? Okay, I'm just thinking out loud here. So forgive me. I do this a lot, as you know, in the podcast. Well, so, so you performing your job well is the byproduct is increasing the company, the, I don't know, the shares, the money, the, you know, people at the top are

hopefully going to make more money. One might even say have more power or whatever, you know, because Brittany's doing her job well. And you have the other added question. Not just to name it. You know, it's a liquor company, right? Or you're selling more liquor, which I appreciate a good bourbon. So no,

nothing against that. But one could say, is that is that good? Like, is there, is there any like tension that you wrestle with? Not just, you know, okay, it's a liquor company, but just, It could not be a liquor company.

It's like, is it good that big, powerful companies are getting bigger and more powerful, you know, and making more money? And is that, should we be feeding that? Or is that just the tension of living in a fallen world where it's like, well, yeah, that's just kind of what it means to have a, quote, secular job, you know? Totally. Yeah. So I'll answer the second question first. I try really hard not to wrestle with things that are totally outside of my control. So we live in.

commercial consumer-driven culture in the West, right? That's what capitalism is. So is it the most godly way to live our lives as image bearers of God? Probably not, but I actually can't do anything to change that system from the top down. But what I can do is I can influence my sphere of influence in my little corner of the world. So I personally don't struggle with, you know, is is feeding this capitalistic model. Is this a problem? I don't, I don't struggle with that because for me,

I'm like, that's the world we live in in North America. And I can't, like, I'm not going to change that. Right. And you would have to, like, what's the option?

All Christians remove yourself from any kind of, you know, it's like we're, we're no longer going to have any kind of presence or influence in society. Totally.

And then what happens, right? Then the only caricature of Christians that non-Christians in the secular workplace are left to wrestle with is what they see on the news. So I'm not, I don't struggle with that personally. Regarding the alcohol question, it's something I get asked all the time. And I will tell you, especially with having one foot in ministry, it is, I do struggle with it most when someone comes up to me, you know, after I've just taught or after I've, you know, done a talk or whatever.

and someone says, hey, like, you know, I understand that that's your job, but like, I just checked my wife into rehab yesterday. That, of course, is heartbreaking and undoubtedly without question. Many folks have been touched by someone who struggles with alcohol abuse. So I'm very sensitive to that. And most of the time when I'm speaking, I actually, I just won't even mention my job. I'll just say I'm in sales and marketing for a beverage company. So I'm sensitive to it. However, I personally do not feel convicted about being in the workplace in this particular

category. And that wasn't always the case. When I first started, so I've been in the adult beverage industry for 13 years. And when I first started, I remember, like, my mom was so embarrassed that she, like, wouldn't even tell her Bible study group what job I got. She was like, oh, Britney's in marketing. And that was it. Yeah, right.

And yeah. So at that time, I did really struggle. Like, oh, my gosh, like, I'm embarrassing my parents. And is this the right thing to be doing? Prior to being in beverage, I had been in sports. And prior to that, I had been in the nonprofit sector. So I was like, oh, man, like, you know, am I doing the wrong thing by not being explicitly in ministry in the way that I was when I was in the nonprofit sector.

And I remember as I was struggling through that, one of my mentors at the time said to me, you know, Brittany, there's darkness everywhere. Yeah. And people need Jesus everywhere. And that includes, you know, maybe even, maybe even more than you know, that includes the liquor space. So that sort of released me of that guilt. And I will tell you, I think a presupposition that folks can have is like, oh, like I've

this a lot, like, oh, bless you for working in the darkest of places. And I will tell you, actually, like, one of the unexpected and beautiful benefits of sort of taking this work, work mission integration model into my job and being, you know, a little bit more vocal about my faith than I maybe had been in the past is like, I have now had, like, so many Christians at my workplace, come to me and be like, oh, my gosh, like, you go to church, I go to church. You're a follower of Jesus? I'm a follower of Jesus. And so I've been able to cultivate some of the deepest, most, like, beautiful Christ-centered relationships of my life with people at my company because of being a bit more vocal about my faith.

So unexpected benefit. I love what you said about. There's lots of other companies and stuff that have a dark side to them. I'm sure people involved in, yeah, athletics. There's lots of idolatry to go into athletics. There's institute. I mean, name one institution, unless it's, again, unless it's like run by somebody who's really implementing deep, holistic, thorough Christian values, you know, there's going to be all kinds of

things that your success as a employee, being a good employee is helping a company that is also sinful in many ways. You know, like, yeah. So I don't, I mean, people in Hollywood or, you know, you can go down to list. So I don't. Yeah. If we're being consistent. I think it'd be hard, I think, to critique your job and not most other secular jobs, you know.

For sure. For sure. And I, yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. You go ahead. Yeah. I was just going to say, I do think there can be this misconception when I say I work in sales for alcohol that it's like, oh, so like you want everyone to be drinking all the time. Like you want everyone to have a problem with alcohol abuse. And I will say, that is not my company's stance. I'm not a spokesperson for my company. I've been very intubes. to not name my company in this conversation, but, but for, for many years, the conversation was drink less, but drink better. So premiumize the brands that you're choosing. And that was a way that we grew share for a very long time. So I, I'm a, I'm a one drink girlie myself. So for whatever that's right. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great model. Drink less but better. I mean, higher quality alcohol, too. You don't, you don't want to consume a lot of it. I mean, Maybe some people do, but I mean, it's like, you know, like a really nice bourbon. You want to, it's a slow sipper.

It's not, you know, you're not taking shots with it or you shouldn't be taking shots with it. So, 100%. So you're in seminary too. Why are you in seminary? I mean, you're just a layperson. You're not like a minister. I'm being facetious, but I'll come back to that. But yeah, why are you trying to get out of the secular workplace and be a pastor?

Or what's your, what's your reason for being in seminary? Yeah, it's funny you say that. When I did end up getting promoted a couple years ago, my new boss in that role was like, so you're in seminary? Like, are you going to call me in two years and tell me like, I quit? I'm becoming a pastor. Like, what's going on here? And I'll tell you the same thing that I told him. I don't think so. I initially started seminary several years ago. I've been going at a snail's pace. I just take one class a semester. It's all I can do, you know, between work and school and now also teaching it open door occasionally. So I started in January of 2020. It's been like all of my 30s has been dedicated to seminary. And what initially sort of prompted me towards seminary, there were several micro prompts along the way, but I couldn't shake this feeling that I was being called to teach, speak, write something in some capacity. I had no idea what that meant. I had no vision for what that meant. In fact, when I applied for seminary,

my husband and I had just left our previous church. So, like, I didn't even have, I didn't even have, like, a placeholder that I could sort of envision myself teaching it. I really didn't know what that would mean. But I couldn't shake this call. And what prompted me to apply for seminary because I really believe, like,

you can't teach what you don't know. Or you can, but, like, you shouldn't. What prompted me to make the jump was, I was launching a new flavored vodka for my company. And I was making this presentation. And I'm like, I've hit flow state. Like, you know, and you can just feel it? You're like, I'm going.

I don't need my notes. Like, they're viving. I'm vibing. I'm vibing. We've arrived. And so I'm going on and on about all the consumer benefits of this flavored vodka. And someone in the back goes, yes, preach. And I had this moment where like, I felt like I had been punched in the gut.

And I was like, man, I hope someday I can use my passion and skill set for speaking and leading and teaching. I hope someday I can use those things for something more important than flavored vodka. Wow. And the next day I applied for seminary. No way. Yeah. So shifting gears a little bit.

You are at a seminary that I don't know if it's officially complementarian, but certainly a lot of complementarians there. Would that be fair to say? Yeah. So I'm enrolled at Talbot at Biola University. I have had an incredibly positive experience for the most part as a female. Of course, there are, you know, you're always going to get like one idiot or something. But for the most part, I've had a great experience. In my time, again, I've been enrolled now for six years. So I've seen like some changes happen along the way. And in my time at Talbot, there actually was a shift in their language that it, the way that they've phrased it, they're basically not, they're not drawing a line in the sand. What they say is we equip both men and women in any program that they choose, including like a pastoral ministry degree. And then it is up to the local church to determine who they ordain or do not ordain. So I would say, yes, historically, it probably has been viewed more as complementarian. And I think,

I think professors do still, I think, have to take that. stance. I could be wrong on that. Please don't quote me. But overall, I have felt very empowered by the professors that I have worked with at Talbot. They've been incredible. There's a couple of them that watch every sermon that I do and send me feedback, which is really kind. I mean, I know a few, I'm thinking of two who would be egalitarian and teach, maybe have Talbot or Biola. They technically have different rules for undergrad, versus Talbot. Oh, okay. So maybe that. Okay. Yeah. I think Ron Pierce wasn't he, he used to be, I think, at the seminary. And he was a pretty outspoken egalitarian. I think so what a little

birdie told me without revealing my sources, what I was told was, and I don't know if this is still the case, but what I was told was when you apply, you have to have a complementarian stance. But like if over the course of decades your stance changes, that's not going to be a stance that they remove you over. I don't know. So you said you've had a good experience for the most part. Have you had any bad encounters or experiences or things that have been difficult for you that you can talk about on the air?

If not, that's fine. No, of course. I mean, listen, to be a female in ministry is to open yourself up to having friendly fire from people within the church, unfortunately. So, yeah, I had an experience. a few years ago with another student where it was right before my first sermon at Open Door. And I was, you know, so nervous and thrilled. I was so nervous, I cried and threw up on the bathroom floor.

So I was, you know, I was really in it. But one of the reasons why I was in that state of panic was because earlier that week, a fellow student had been asked to pray for me prior to class closing because they knew that it was going to be my first sermon. And he said no with like as much discussed as a person could ever muster. And he said, I am not doing that. I'm a pretty strong complementarian. And I will not be advocating for this. And he left the room. And so it ended up becoming like a whole situation where he sent like a five page essay to the entire class saying that my, perceived calling was demonic and that I would be judged at the throne of Christ and that I needed to repent immediately. And he sent it to the whole class. And it just spiraled very quickly from

there. But that's no one at Bile University's fault. And they were very, people were not happy that that occurred. You know, like the staff was very supportive through that season. How'd that make you feel? What'd that do to you? Oh, I mean, like it crushed me. I remember when I first applied to seminary, one of the things that terrified me was I had witnessed the way that men largely within the SBC had treated Beth Moore. And, you know, I don't know Bethmore personally, but she has deeply impacted my walk with the Lord and the way that I teach and the way that I view scripture.

And I remember, I think I want to say it was Mother's Day 2019. I remember just sobbing because of the hate that she was receiving. And at that time, I had sort of started to feel this nudge towards seminary. And my immediate reaction was like, oh, that's going to happen to me too. Like I also, like if I say yes to this call, that could mean that I also am going to be torn apart just because I'm a female. And it was something I wrestled through, did a lot of research on, read a lot of books. And ultimately, I did net out that like, okay, I do believe that this is not a sin, that I am empowered to speak, teach, lead, right? Whatever that means in the future.

And let's do it. So in that moment when that student said those things to me and wrote those things about me, it just felt like one of my worst fears was kind of like coming to life in a place that I wasn't ready for it. I thought it was going to happen once I was like out in the world actually doing the thing. I thought that I was still in like prep mode, right? Because I'm still in school. And so it took me by surprise how early it happened in a place that I thought was safe. There's two things going on there. I mean, one is a difference in theology. Of course, you're going to have complementarian fellow students, maybe most.

And so you're going to have a disagreement in this theological issue. And maybe even people would say, I don't actually agree that Brittany is called. That's one thing. That's inevitable. But the way of going about it is that's a whole other thing. Yeah, I remember saying in the moment, I was like, I've never experienced a Christian refusing to pray for another Christian. Like, that's crazy.

Like, you could be generic. You could say, like, Lord, may your kingdom come, may or will be done. Leave it at that. But, yeah, it was wild. Lord changed Britney's heart over her perceived calling. Yeah. Wow. I got a quick, okay.

On this, I have a couple of questions that these are questions people sent me. This, this, oh, you'll know the context. Do you remember the breakout I did with Sandy Richter at the conference? I don't know if you were there now. Yeah. So we had a bunch of questions that came in, didn't have a chance to answer them. So I'm actually recorded a podcast where I'm answering the questions. There were three questions in particular that I'm like, I don't think I can answer these

because they're very kind of just like, well, you'll see by the nature of the questions. Sure. And I actually had Sandy address these questions, but I'd love your thoughts too because this is a very relevant. to what we're talking about. So here's one question. As a woman in seminary, how can I prepare myself to enter environments where people do not believe women can be in leadership? Because you're, I mean, this is exactly, this is exactly what we're talking about here. Yeah. So what advice can you give to somebody else that is in maybe a similar place? Yeah, it's such a good question. Well, I already mentioned I'm a Swifty, so I will quote a Taylor Swift line

that has been very helpful for me. She has been on the record saying, keep your heart soft, but your skin thick. And to me, both of those elements are necessary in as a female in ministry of any kind. And I think the thing, and again, I am a work in progress. This is not, I have not arrived on this. Like some of my girlfriends, when they hear this, they're going to be like, you're not good at that.

So it's like, do as I say, not as I do. but like one thing that is helpful for me when I encounter people who don't believe that I should have a space or speaking or teaching men or whatever their stance is is to remember that they like to have to assume positive intent because assuming that they have done the biblical and theological work to arrive at their conclusion which some haven't so that's to me that's a little bit of a different conversation. But for those that have, they are truly doing the best that they know how with the word of God.

And they deeply love the same God that I serve. And so I think I'm really sensitive, especially in this climate of our culture today, I'm really sensitive to the infighting that the church has experienced over the last decade plus. It feels like sometimes we're just being torn from the inside out. And I refuse to be a part of it. So I'm not going to hate another follower of Jesus because they arrived at a different conclusion than I did. Do I wish that they would arrive at a different place?

Yeah. Do I hope that they can express their views in a way that's respectful and not tearing me down? Yeah, of course. But I want to have positive intent when I engage with people who disagree with me, theologically. Have you, thank you. That's an amazing response. I would imagine, and this is something I hear from other women who have had similar experiences, like it builds, either it can just crush you, right? And you, it maybe exacerbates insecurities or just produces more fragility and or it can build a healthy resilience, which, as you know, to be in any kind of church leadership, whether it's a lay preacher or a pastor or whatever, like you got to have a lot of resilience because if it's not this, it's going to be something else. There's going to be people, you know, saying mean things about you, gossiping.

I mean, there's going to be a whole host of challenges that are going to come your way. And if you don't have the resilience to be able to push through that, you're not going to, I don't think going to do well in ministry. And women have a unique pathway of resilience because most, if not all women, will have to go through these kind of experiences, which is unfortunate. Yeah. And I will say, I think another piece of resilience and frankly, another piece of advice that I would have is you've got to have a strong foundation and a strong network of people who do support you.

So I remember when that situation has. happened with the student at my school, I remember laughing with my husband and being like, dude, I literally get more respect as a female selling liquor at my company than I am from a fellow Christian who believes that I'm a fellow image bearer of God. Like, that's crazy. But what I will say is having that like communal backing and like competence boost of like, I have a husband who is my biggest cheerleader. I have a company who allows women in leadership to flourish. Having sort of some of those foundational pillars helps you have resilience because you're not only

deriving your own worth from what the Theo Bros are saying about you. You know, here's another question that came in. What would you say to women who grew up in a complementary context but have sensed a call to pastoral ministry are starting to understand the theological basis for egalitarianism, but still struggle to be confident in their call. Love this question. It just oozes with authenticity. Oh my gosh. That gives me chills because it's like, did I write that question seven years ago? So I love that. So I just to, you know, lay it all out, I also was raised in a complementarian church. That was part of the wrestling match that I had when I sort of sensed this call. I remember, I remember on that mother's day when I was crying. I remember,

crying to my mom and saying like, this feels like a catch 22 because if I follow what I believe is this call, am I sinning? But if I don't follow it, I definitely feel like I'm sinning because I'm refusing to obey where I feel like God is leading me to go. What do I do with this? And so for me, I just threw myself into researching the topic. And I will be honest, when I applied for seminaries, to the question, whoever wrote the question, to their point. I don't think I was convinced of egalitarianism at that point either. And frankly, even at this point, like, I don't, I'm not, I don't love like the labels. I just want to, like, love people well and tell everyone who I meet about Jesus in big and small ways.

So if that means that I'm an egalitarian because I happen to be a female and I'm willing to tell men that Jesus is the bees knees, then, okay, I'm an egalitarian. Sure, slap that label on me. but in the moment when I applied for seminary, I definitely wasn't there. Where I was when I applied to seminary was like, okay, I think I can get on board with a woman teaching under the authority of a male head pastor and a male elder board. Okay.

Like I think I can at least do that. So for me, that was enough to prompt me to go to seminary and then just sort of see what would happen. So I think my advice to the person who asked the question is sometimes for me, I don't want to put this on everyone, but sometimes for me, when I think about my calling, it's really easy for me to spiral quickly into what that's going to look like 10 steps down the road or five years down the road. And the reality is God is not asking us to respond to what he's going to ask us to respond to in 10 years. He's asking us to respond to this immediate next step in front of us today. And so even if you're not fully there, like I don't,

I'm not comfortable calling myself an egalitarian, whatever. That doesn't mean that you can't take the next step that God is asking you to take right now and then see where he takes you over the next five years. This is so weird. What you said is almost word for word what Sandy said. No. Her response. Yeah. Here's her she said, the one thing I would say is that we all struggle with her calling. So that business of knowing who you work for still applies. In her previous response, she said, make to the previous question, you know, know who you work for. God is your primary audience. But then she goes on to say, but I would also say start small. What do you see in front of you that needs to get done? Start doing it, asking God to equip and empower you while you do it.

One step at a time builds confidence, skill, and the ability to hear from the Holy Spirit. And one step will lead to another. If you take no steps, it will be very hard for God to direct you. Yeah. Yeah. That's wild. I mean, Sandy Richter said that far more eloquently than I ever could. She is absolutely brilliant. I am, you know, terrified to be listed in the same sentence as her, but I'm glad we had similar answers. All right, here's one more question. Is there any way for me as a woman to bring this discussion to my church without being perceived as a threat? Well, the answer to that wholly depends on what the heart posture is of your leadership team at your church. Yeah. And I think if you are in a church context where you have leadership who has soft

hearts, who is open to conversation and open to, you know, deep biblical exploration, then that shouldn't be a fear for you. But if you're in a church context where you're like, oh, they're hardened and I am going to be a threat to them and they're not going to like this. I don't know. I personally wouldn't want to go to that church with that type of leadership structure. Yeah, yeah, that's good. Yeah, I'd say, you said kind of the same thing. Like, it really depends on where, where's your church at, you know? Like, are they well studied on the issue and they've landed on a certain position?

And that's not, they're not, if one person comes to them and says, I disagree with this. It's not like they're going to, oh, okay, we'll change, you know. And they, in a sense, they shouldn't, like, if you flip it around and you're a complimentarian at an egalitarian church and you're like, hey, I think you're wrong on this. Like, how are they going to respond? like, well, we're not idiots. Like we've thought through that, you know. Yeah. But if they're like in a space where they're exploring, searching,

or maybe they're not well studied and they admit it. Like, I don't know. We're just part of a denomination. This is the view. But, you know, so yeah, I think it all depends on. Yeah. Totally depends on the leadership of the church. That can happen.

Like I, so my husband and I have only gone to our church here in Minneapolis for the last five-ish years, a little more than five years. but the history of Open Door is that it was a complementarian church. And I don't know when this happened. I want to say it was like 15, 20 years ago, ish, give or take. Their leadership team underwent extensive study into the question of women in leadership. And they ended up doing a sermon series sharing with the church,

hey, here's what we've learned. And we're wrong. And they invited up all of the women who, either had felt a call to ministry or who were in ministry currently. And they invited them up to the platform and they prayed over them and like basically confessed their sin of we are so sorry that we have not empowered you in the past. So and since then, Open Door is an egalitarian church where women are elders and women are on the teaching team and they are pastors. So, so change can happen. You know, I think to your point, it depends on the, the, the,

depth of your leadership team's study and also their open-handedness to exploring in a deeper way if they haven't already. Have you experienced, so it's an egalitarian church, but I've heard, well, without sharing what I've heard, let me just ask you, do you, do you experience like full acceptance and everything, or do you still face conversations, explicit, implicit, posture or whatever where somebody is not really totally okay with you being a leader. Again, whether that's said explicitly or just you get the impression that that's how somebody feels. Yeah. Overall, my answer is, yes, I feel 100% empowered at Open Door as a layleader.

That said, you know, again, to be a female in ministry is to open yourself up to criticism. So I've had some one-off weird comments, not from anyone on staff. just from like people who either were visiting the church or I don't know if they're members or not, but folks, like one guy said, I think he might have had some mental illness, but one guy said that I was tempting him because I wore these like longer shorts. They were like 80s camp counselor shorts. So they were not sexy. But he said that I was tempting him for wearing those.

So I didn't like that. I had another guy come up to me and I think he meant this as a compliment God bless but he was like oh your teaching is so theological rich and it's so deep it's just it's so wonderful that you're more than a pretty face and I was like

thank you so I mean there's been like weird comments where I'm like I don't think a guy has to deal with this kind of stuff but but I get that all the time I get that all the time comments on my shorts Your shorts are just really driving the girls crazy. More than a pretty.

So, so yeah. So the comments happen, but in terms of like actually feeling empowered by the leadership of the church, yes, 100%. Open Door is amazing leadership. Oh, my gosh. Shout out to Overdoor. Is it as good as it seems? I believe I mean, I've preached. I preach her twice.

Yep. The conferences held her twice. So gotten a little leadership on, you know, at a pretty minimal, a limited level. But I'm like, yeah. Oh my word. Like, this is like, it can't be this good, you know? It seems like you guys really enjoy each other. There's no, it doesn't seem like you have, I don't know, maybe you do, like those

kind of side conversations in the parking lot where leaders are kind of divided behind the scenes or whatever. I don't know. It just seems so humble and hospitable and thoughtful and so focused on just spiritual formation and Jesus. Yeah. It's an oasis in a chaotic land. So I'm very grateful for it.

Yeah. Well, Brittany, thanks so much for being on Thiel Girat. I did not bring you on to talk about like women in ministries just everybody knows. Threw me a major curveball, Preston. I know. So I hope it's okay that we have almost two different podcast conversations going on. I kind of, but not really. I do think there's some overlap there.

Yeah, appreciate you coming on. And yeah, I've given us a lot to think about. Do you want, is there any, can people find you if they want to get a hold of you or anything? Or do you not want that to be known? My cell phone number is? No, I'm just kidding. Yeah, no, people can always reach out. The two easiest ways.

So my website is brittanydycust.com. There is a contact us button, and it literally goes to my personal Gmail. So that's one way. Or follow me on Instagram, which is gross. And I am not an influencer. So, like, please do not expect any content that you deem as worth seeing. But my handle is, I think, at B. Dykis. at the underscore Dykes?

I don't know. Search Brittany Dykes. You'll find me. Okay. Awesome. Thank you so much, Brittany. Really appreciate it. Awesome.

Thanks, Preston.