Theology in the Raw - You Were Never Meant to Do it All: Dr. Kelly Kapic

Episode Date: June 9, 2025

Kelly M. Kapic (PhD, King’s College, University of London) is a professor of theological studies at Covenant College in Lookout Mountain, Georgia. He is an author or editor of more than fifteen books, including You’re Only Human, Embodied Hope, which each won a Christianity Today Book of the Year Award, and the recently released You Were Never Meant to Do it All. Join the Theology in the Raw community for as little as $5/month to get access to premium content at patreon.com/theologyintheraw  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology and Rob. My guest today is Dr. Kelly Kapek, who is a professor of theological studies at Covenant College in Lookout Mountain, Georgia. He's an author, editor of more than 15 books, including Your Only Human, Embodied Hope, which won a Christianity Today Book of the Year award, and the recently released 40-day devotional, You Were Never Meant to Do It All. Kelly talks a lot about the finitude of being human, which is what we talk about today. First of all, we begin by talking about original sin, John Owen and same-sex attraction that was not planned.

It just kind of came up. And then we dive deep into embracing our human limitations in a world that is trying to prod us on to do more and more and more and more. Really enjoyed this conversation. I think you will as well. So please welcome back to the show, the one and only Dr. Kelly Kipak. Hey, Kelly. How are you doing this morning? Oh, it's so good to be with you. Thanks for having me. Yeah. I think this is at least number two, if not three. It's been a while. Yeah. Virtually, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Where are you tuning in from again? You're

out in Chattanooga. Yeah. Covenant college on lookout mountain, Georgia. Actually they're doing work in my building. So I'm in the library right now, which is hilarious. I gave me a lounge, which is nice. I've been there once. I remember seeing like lookout mountain is an actual lookout mountain, right? Like over overshadows the town. Yeah. And there's a, you know, anyone from this region, my wife and I are from California, but for decades, they'd have these signs everywhere within hundreds of miles called sea rock city. And we live a couple of blocks from this and it's so, it's so old and cheesy. It's actually they'd have these signs everywhere within hundreds of miles called sea rock city. And we live a couple of blocks from this and it's so, it's so old and cheesy. It's actually cool again. And they, I mean, people flock to it. It's actually kind of cool. It's, it's

adorable, but they say life magazine like decades ago said you could see seven States from it. I don't think it's true, but I love it. So there you go. Yeah. I don't buy that seven. Yeah, exactly. I don't know. It's gotta be a friendly you go. Yeah. I don't buy that. Exactly. I don't, I'd say it's gotta be an incredibly clear day. Yeah. Well, even in a clear day, but I love the optimism. It was life magazine. I mean, who's going to argue. So, so your, your main area of expertise is theological anthropology. I've had my Mark Cortez on before and, um, it, there's, there's not a whole lot of you out there that this is your main area in even joke or spaces. What, what got you into, well, actually what is the logical anthropology? People could probably kind of figure it out, but why don't

you unpack that for us? And what got you interested in this area? I love it. I mean, this is, this is your area too, in many ways, sexuality and all of these things. Yeah. Theological anthropology is a fancy way of saying, what does it mean to be human? And I kind of very interested in the idea. Yeah, I went to seminary during, during my PhD overseas like you, and I worked with a guy named Colin Gunton and a woman named Susan Hardman Moore kind of did history and theology. But part of what was interesting, and I focused on a guy named John Owen, and I'm interested in what it means to be human theologically,

and the fundamental to being human is actually communion, communion with God, right relations with your neighbor, and right relations with the rest of the earth kind of thing. So there's something kind of relational built into what it means to be human. So I'm interested in exploring that. Okay. So you did your work on John Owen, like the John Owen. Okay. Yeah. It's actually called Communion with God and it's kind of weaving together his anthropology, Trinitarian theology and Christology. That's a mouthful. Isn't Owen famous for his kind of like doctrine of sin or like indwelling sin versus what do you call it?

Actual sin or? Yeah, he talks a lot about, so he has a, probably one of his most read books to this day is a book called on mortification. So it's on, you know, killing sin in you. And he originally delivered it in the 17th century to Oxford students. So it's interesting. It's not long. It's probably 80 pages, but he's not a great writer.

And so he makes everything very difficult, but it tells you how much people get from it that they're still reading it. And part of what I would argue is Owen, one of the reasons he's still read and valuable is he was a brilliant theologian who was doing what I would call early modern psychology. He was really a student of humans as well as a student of scripture and God. And I think that's part of what, there is some psychological insights there that are pretty robust.

You've dabbled in sexuality conversations as well, right? I mean, you're familiar with it. Yeah. I haven't written a lot about them, but yep. Well, can I ask you a personal, not personal familiar with it. Yeah. I haven't, I haven't written a lot about them, but yep. Well, can I ask you a person? I'm not a personal question, but so I, I, no, not personally, not personally to you. I need, I need, I didn't know you're an expert in John Owen. Cause so people have said that my understanding of same sex attraction as, as, as a, let's just say a temptation to sin, but not sin

itself is, is basically people say like, well, John Owen would disagree with you, which I would say, okay, maybe, I don't know. I'm not, I'm not, I'm a Christian, not a, you know, I don't give my allegiance to, Oh, and, but that, you know, I know he's done fun, you know, formative work in this area. What would say, given your knowledge of what same sex attraction is, I mean, the potential to experience a sexual desire towards somebody of the same sex, but same sex attraction is not, is prior to that experience of the desire. Okay. Just like I'm opposite sex attracted doesn't mean every single time I see a female, I'm female, I'm like lusting after them or have a sexual desire for them, but I'm still attracted to females as a category.

So same sex attraction, if it's along the same lines. Would Owen say if somebody is same sex attracted that they need to mortify that until it goes away, they are living an ongoing unrepentant sin? Preston, what are you like? You're like, Hey, Kelly, come on for this is the fantastic switch room. This is totally unplanned. Yeah. I should have prepped you. I mean, there, there, it is a longer conversation. I think it's really complicated and I do suspect people talk past one another. So what, what's going on is the debate of, it's actually a Christological debate. Does Jesus, so scripture is clear, Jesus is tempted in every way as we are yet without sin. The debate, whether

it's Owen or some of the other classical theologians, is they would say often that Jesus is tempted by all outward sins, but he doesn't have original sin, so he doesn't have, he's not born with disordered desires, right? And so the question, there's an academic debate about does the Son of God assume a fallen or an unfallen human nature, probably take us too far afield. But actually part of what I like, and I think is very fair about the question is I think we often say Words like attraction and think we know what that means. Yeah, if you asked Owen Did Jesus ever have lustful thoughts that he had to put he would say no, right? Right?

And so but that often isn't what people like you were saying. It is more like, you know, or could Jesus, Mary Magdalene, could He look at her and think, I can imagine a life with her. That could be a beautiful life, and we could raise kids, it could be amazing, but that is not what God, that's not what the Father has called me to. There's nothing sinful in that, even if there is a kind of attraction, right? Obviously, that's not in the Bible, but just to say there's nothing inherently wrong with attraction, but when we hear the language of attraction, it often has pretty strong connotations with sexuality of a certain sort that makes the conversation a little bit more

complicated. Would I hear people describe same sex, people that say same sex attraction is itself a sin. And then I say, okay, tell me what you mean by same sex attraction. They go on to describe what I would call lust. Exactly. But again, if I'm opposite sex attracted to females, that doesn't mean I even find every female attractive or even that I'm even tempted to engage in a sexual desire toward that person. That's not what opposite sex attraction means. It's not what same sex attraction is. So yeah, I do think

there is a terminological confusion there. Yeah, the externally, I guess my... See, I'm a biblical studies guy. I'm not a theologian. This is where we end up... Show me it in the Bible, man. Well, when people say like Jesus had external temptations, but not internal... I'm like, what does that even mean? That conceptual categorization just isn't in the text. If He was tempted in every way we are, then that's just, I just want to say he's tempted in every kind of whatever sin I am to say, well, he wasn't tempted by sexual temptations. I'm like, that's a, that takes out a pretty large

chunk of the human experience. And I can no longer really believe that he's in temp tempted in every way we are. When you take out the major category of how we're tempted. So, yeah, I will. I, so part of what I would say that makes this difficult is, I mean, when we start to talk about those, those are normally externally driven actually, right? Whether it's images or something like that, right? Externally, like there's like, he's not in a room by himself being tempted with thoughts. Yeah, there are temptations that are being provoked from the outside. The question, maybe a different way of phrasing it, I think Owen would be comfortable with this. Do you think the Satan, right? Do you think the serpent is coming from inside with the temptation for Jesus or from the outside.

And I think you would say he's coming from the outside, this temptation, recreating the garden. Like that would be what Owen and those guys are always going to parallel the original. So whatever it means for Adam, right, and Eve to be fully human has to be true of Jesus. But they could be fully and truly human without having internal temptation in those ways. But the other thing I would say that I think is just a challenge for this kind of conversation is, as you know, we live in a time when people say, tell me who you are, and we define the self by these purely internal categories, right? So we say, well, you know, but if you were someone in the Middle Ages or in ancient Rome, they would say, well, you know, but if you were someone in the Middle Ages or in ancient Rome,

they would say, well, here's my tribe, here's the land I'm from, here's the work I do. It's all externally defined. So I think now that we're saying my identity is from inside, and then you throw that into this conversation, I do think it fosters greater confusion rather than understanding. It's a different way of understanding who the self is. For sure. For sure. And thus temptation. When did that internalization of identity or that focus on one's internal sense of self, internal desires, is that, where do you trace that back to? I know people have done kind of history of research going, tracing it all the way back to? I know people have done kind of history of research going

tracing it all the way back to I don't know, Freud or, Speaker 3rd-Garrett-Montez Yeah. I mean, Charles Taylor's done a bunch of work on this and others. And many of them would say the reformation actually. Yeah. And kind of this heavy emphasis on personal belief and lessening institution and community. There's some good scholarship pushing back a bit on that nuance, but I really do think it grows out of the soil of the Reformation, enlightenment models, all of that.

And certainly by the time you're talking about Descartes, Freud, these kinds of things. I mean, Freud's important, not because you're gonna really struggle to find psychologists who think what Freud argued was right. But they are gonna admit Freud's hugely influential at the pop level because he has some intuitions that are right. It's not his actual details that are important, it's more what he represents.

I wouldn't, you know, Luther, so in Pauline studies, there was a shift back in the late 70s and early 80s. People might understand it as like the new perspective on Paul, but this reevaluation of a Lutheran way of reading Paul, moving away from this introspective of oneself. Christo Stendahl was a European scholar who wrote, I think, an essay by that name. But basically, Luther is this quest to, how can I earn favor with God? And realizes he can't do it all himself. But there is this kind of individual emphasis on understanding salvation. But when people say, well, wait a minute, let's go back to Paul and this kind of Lutheran lens doesn't really work with a first century Jew who is not wondering how can I earn right favor with

God, but how can I, you know, stamp out this Gentile incursion, which is preventing God's covenant promises from coming about. And then he has a conversion realizing that, you know, Jesus is a Messiah and so on. So, yeah, all that says a long way of saying, I could see where people would go all the way back to Luther and the Reformation to say that there was this move towards an emphasis on the self. And even, even that, I mean, as a new testimony, I'm sure you know, John Barclay's work on Paul and the gift. It's just brilliant. But one of the surprises is Barclay is actually really good in terms of like, he's a sympathetic reader of Luther and he's going to say, you know, there is actually something if you listen to what he's doing and

for a work I did on suffering, I found Luther's personal correspondence, some of the most helpful things I read. And what surprised me is because we all think Luther is all about faith and he is, but when you read it, he's constantly like, hey, pray for me that I might not lose my faith. But he doesn't mean that I'll stop believing that God exists. He's talking about like, he talks about that I would blaspheme against God. Lit, I would think God is cruel, that I would think he's harsh. That's what I need prayer for against.

And the reason that matters is actually, there is a way of reading Luther and his understanding of faith that actually is quite communal. So I do think, I mean, Luther's far more medieval and Catholic than, than people tend to recognize. He's still going to say the faith is communal, but it goes all the way down to the individual and it must be individual. But I think where we get to in like evangelical world, post revivals and all of this stuff creates a problem because now we read Luther through that and you think, well, what happens if I wake up in the morning, like one of my friends who's a retired

theologian, he'd say, dealt with depression his whole life, and he'd say, Kelly, I wake up every morning as an atheist. And then by nine, I'm a,otheist, and on a good day, by noon, I'm a Christian. That makes perfect sense to most of us. And so, you've got to make sure your theology can handle that. Otherwise, you make faith itself a work, which Luther is opposed to. Pete Slauson So, his emphasis on the individual wasn't to the exclusion of the more social. Jason Kuznicki No, no. I really, and I do think it's an example. It's like reading theologians like me trying to do biblical scholarship is my experience of reading people like James Dunn and NT Wright, who I love their work, but when they start talking about the Reformation, it's terrible.

Like, skip all that, just get to the biblical stuff. It can be really helpful, but it doesn't help when you say some of the things that actually aren't really accurate when you talk to the historians. That's funny. So you've done work on intersection between suffering and your theological anthropology. What have you found there? What do you, what do you emphasize there? What's the relationship between suffering and a more firmer understanding of our embodiment? Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for asking. I mean, the short version is 2008, my wife got cancer. We got married in 1993, but didn't have kids for the first nine years. And two years later,

after surgeries and everything, a year and a half later, she was declared cancer free. And then starting in 2010, she called me from the side of the road and couldn't use her leg right. And basically, long story short, she's been dealing with chronic pain since that day to this day. And in fact, this week that you and I are talking is the 15th anniversary of that daily serious pain and fatigue. So with her encouragement and a grant from the Templeton Foundation, I ended up writing a book called Embodied Hope. And it is the very thing you're talking about.

Embodiment is key. And so how do we learn to value our bodies? And there's a heavy emphasis on lament. And so for me, part of my journey has been to really take, I don't like kind of cheap evangelical happy clappy kind of stuff, everything's good. And I really, I'm a reform theologian and sometimes in my circles,

I don't also like God's in control, suck it up, everything's, you know, God's doing all of this and there's a misunderstanding. So there is extremes and I'm really interested in figuring out lament and hope. And it was only after working through the problems of suffering as humans that I finally felt ready to talk about the goodness of being a human, which is where the book, You're Only Human and This New One, You Were Never Meant to Do It, I'll Come Out of. It's finally being able to say, here's the positive, right?

I also worry that in some of our circles, we only say negative things about being human, like you're such a terrible sinner or you're destroying the planet. And all of these things can be true. It's not that they're not true, but they become the only thing that's true. And that hurts us.

Hey friends, I wanted to let you know about an upcoming conference that I'll be speaking at in September of this year. and that hurts us. Christian leaders, alongside pastors and peacemakers from across North America. This conference invites American Christians to engage in honest reckoning, prophetic reflection, and faithful action. I'll be speaking at the conference alongside others such as Shane Claiborne, Jamar Tisby, Muthur Isak, and Gary Burge and many others. And they are offering Theology and Raw listeners $20 off conference registration. Just go to church at thecrossroads.com and enter TITR at the checkout. That's church of thecrossroads.com. Enter TITR to get 20 bucks off of registration. See you there.

And yeah, you, so you've done a lot of reasonable work on human, embracing human limitations. Is that the right, is that a phrase that would accurately describe? I use the word finitude a lot, but to explain that, finitude just means limits of space, time, knowledge and power. Do you feel like we as humans, well, let's just say Christians in particular, are struggling with embracing our finitude more, is this more recently? Is it, is it an internet thing? Everything's blamed on the internet, right? Is that, but is that

you and I all of a sudden sound really old when we talk to the internet. I, I definitely think, you know, social media and those things contribute to it, but I, I, I changed some of my views early on. I thought, Oh, social media is going to be the big thing. Cause we all stared our phones all the time and that is worth a longer conversation. I get the chemicals and dopamine but I've started to wonder one of the reasons that we're so addicted to our phones to binge watching on Netflix is because we all are crushed by the endless demands and expectations and so since you and I probably shouldn't shoot heroin, it's much better for us to look at our phones

and zone out, right? It's kind of the accepted medication of our day. But I do think rather than just going, why is everyone on social media so much or whatever, constantly distracted, I would just say as a physician of the soul, you and I would wanna go, but why are we driven to that? What are we trying to avoid?

And I do think, especially in the West, we are driven by efficiency and productivity in a way that's crushing us. And in Christian circles, we totally baptized it and it's hurting us a lot. Wait, so are you saying our social media addiction or binge watching Netflix or whatever is because we're so mentally spent by chasing all these different tasks and everything. It's the safe heroin. It's a way to, I mean, just think about how I won't,

I don't even ask people anymore. Have you ever binge watched, right? It's just like when the last time you binge watch, when you did your three hours or whatever it was, how'd you feel afterwards? And everyone's like, I felt terrible. But, and it's always this question of like, I will waste it so much time. But the reason why we do it, and I see this in students all the time is, unless they're going to go binging or just go into this social media hole, any kind of silence is plastered with voices of accusation of endless to do's of ways

they're falling short. So to silence those voices, we distract ourselves. And so if we spend all our time talking about, Hey, you need to get better about not using your phone all the time. We're going to miss the deeper spiritual concern of, Hey, you don't have to be busy all the time. It's legit for you to go for a walk. It's legit for you to take a nap. It's legit for you to value relationships and not just productivity and efficiency. Well, where did this come from? I mean, when did it start? Where did it come from? Why

are we wired this way to want to produce, produce, produce, get more and more done? I mean, it's interesting. It was Ben Franklin. It's not in the Proverbs. It says, you know, time is money, but we and Christians in the West, we baptize it. And it's not that we're crassly doing everything for money, but like in America, where we're primarily based, it is interesting. I mean, just think about, don't waste your life, don't waste your time, use your time. Well, tons of economic metaphors. So I do think it's an example of where a certain kind of an economic mindset has so shaped us.

And I really do, we so highly value efficiency and productivity that other values just get undermined. And for me, the big discovery was to realize God values efficiency and productivity, but they're not as high as values. Love is. And when you start thinking about things, like one of the most inefficient things you can ever do is love. Like have a baby. It's not efficient. It's totally, have a puppy. It's terrible, right? These are not efficient things and they slow you down. But there's beauty in it.

What? So I would, I'm going to guess you probably are speaking to yourself when you talk about these things. This is an issue for me. This is what I had to work on. Yeah, for sure. What practical things have you done as somebody who probably really likes to accomplish things and get one more thing done at the end of the day and probably wrestles with feeling like,

ah, I didn't get enough done today. Like what are some practical things you've done to confront that? Yeah, oh, it's really good. It is really practical. There's a bunch of things, but I would start with, you know, we all know we're supposed to pray. I don't have to convince people that. But I find it interesting. One of the reasons, one of the main reasons I think a lot of us don't pray, but we would never admit this, is it's a waste of time. Like it's like I'm not doing like we're no, no, I'm talking to God, but we actually, if we're honest, it feels like a waste of time and there are better things to do with our time. Right. And you, when you start to imagine, well, what if you treated your spouse or your

children that way and that does like we've seen relationships where people, parents, like the child is a waste of their time. It's not the best use of their time and the kind of consequences that. So for me, learning to pray and to not try and just do a list and just pound through it, but to learn to use my imagination in prayer and like, sit with God and kind of talk with God and just even be quiet with God and think about a family and start to imagine their life. And I'm a Presbyterian and yet I start to believe, wow, there really is a God. And I feel like he's giving insight on things to pray for or say.

That would be one example of just slowing down, actually, value in that. Well, the other practical, just one other practical thing would be, I've really, I've learned the practice of gratitude and lament are two sides of the same coin. Both of them are expressions of saying, God, I'm not in control and you are. And in some ways, I'm holding you responsible. Like, why is this happening? That's the lament side. And it may sound like an act of unbelief,

but it's actually an act of dependence. And gratitude is all good and perfect gifts are from Him. And I really think it's not one or the other focusing on both of those. And the last thing I'd mention is, I've really started to think of sleep as a spiritual discipline because it's been so hard for me. But to go, this is not a bad thing. Every night I go to bed and I say, God, I am not in control and you are. I think sleep is an act of faith. Like I've done the work you've given me. That's it.

Have you had a hard time sleeping in the past or you just, or you just didn't sleep enough and he got up early. No hard time. And, and like many of us, you know, I'm in my fifties now, but often, and it doesn't happen nearly as much now, I think though it still can happen, but I would wake up at two or three in the morning. So I'd be thinking about children or spouse or work, all of these things. And I'd be wide awake with anxiety and thinking, I

need to get up and get going. And so that's, that, that is part of what started to make me realize, oh, the reason we sleep is because God never does. Right? It's kind of like, if you're on the front line of a military, like you can't sleep in war unless you have a buddy who's got your back and can watch for you and then you can sleep. So Christians can sleep. There's a theology of why we can sleep and need to. Do you work less hours? Like is that, does that help? Or is it not so much quantity is quality? I mean, yeah, I mean, this is, it's so interesting because I'm sure our lives are actually probably pretty similar. Um, in the sense of right now it's a harvest time, right? You book's coming out, this kind of thing.

And you know, it just, and so for me, the analogy of farmers really helps. When it's harvest, sometimes you're, farmers will put in 12 or more hours a day, right? That is not sinful, that's not bad. The problem is if you pretend every day, every season is harvest, it will kill you, right? There's a reason why, you know why the book has become a New York Times

bestseller, even though it wasn't written for just everybody, if the body keeps the score, your body's going to say enough. So I do find there are seasons. But when I'm in harvest and it's getting long, my wife will be quick to tell me. And I'm now listening to my body more, like, no, I need to make some choices, need to say no more, need to let some people down. But there's no romanticized version of this.

The reality is, you know, this is certain season of life. You just have to say, okay, I'm going to let people down. I can't do it all. And that's not sinful. So how do we, and I really think community, family and trusted friends help you make those decisions. And how about like, like we're so much more accessible now. I mean, from, from not even without social media. I mean, you've got just email the other day I spent two hours, two hours because I was getting, you know, even like I'm working on a video project right now and every time somebody puts a comment, I get an email alert, you know? So I'm working through like 30 of these alerts that I'm going through. And then other emails are being pushed down and I'm going back and there's, you know, I'm going to be traveling over the next few weeks. So I'm getting like hotel notifications and your

payment didn't go through, like, and then let alone all the other stuff. I'm like, I literally said two hours and I felt my blood pressure going. Yeah. And just my adrenal glands. I just started getting less almost like, just, I guess that's it. I don't know what it, I don't typically struggle with anxiety, but I think that's might be what it feels like where you just like, just that, yeah. I ain't just, I guess that's exciting, but it was just like so overwhelming. And I'm like, golly. But I mean, if I, I'm like, what if I didn't have an email? What if, what if nobody could actually get ahold of it? Let's say, Oh my word. What if it had to be a phone call from somebody who actually had

my number, which is like 10 people? It is interesting. I mean, I, this is, you know, publishers for a long time asked me to be on social media and, and I, I really wrestled with, but I knew it wasn't just my own person. I have friends who handle it really well. Um, but, but I, it would not be good for me, but recently the, the moderate view was, okay, I'll start a website that I don't really have to attend, right? Yeah. But I do think it is, there's just so many opportunities and they're not all

bad, but to say yes to one is to say no to others. And so, yeah, I don't have any solutions per se, but I, I do think I, what I would say is the church has handled this problem exactly as the world has. And that's what's concerned me. The church's response is, you know what you need? You need better time management. And I'm trying to say it's not a time management problem. It's a theological and pastoral problem.

You need to feel comfortable just saying no to things, saying yes to things, right? And sometimes when you have trusted friends, you honestly tell them what you're doing and they might say, no, we need you to step up. Our community is impoverished because you're not active. But other friends are, you know, when you say what you're doing, they're going to be like, wow, okay, that's too much. And you need to guilt free, cut down some of this stuff. But I find it's very hard to tell free, cut down some of this stuff.

But I find it's very hard to tell myself that I need others that I trust to tell me that we find value in how much we accomplish. Like that's a big problem, right? Like our identity is I have done this, I have done that. I have written this book, I have spoken here. I have, you know, I have done that. I have written this book. I have spoken here. I have, you know, I have this job. Like it's, it's when you take that away, it's like, I feel like it takes our value away. But is that all? Yeah. Yeah. Is that always been an issue? I mean, it seems like, is that a demic to humanity or is it worse now and why?

I definitely don't, you know, I've been asked, would this book be relevant at all time? Because, you know, it's seems relevant now. And I'm like, I actually, if I wrote this in the 16th century, ain't no one buying it. You know, I do think it's a modern, you know, post enlightenment. I do think there's certain technologies have fostered this. So I don't think it's always been an issue. Our imaginations now are shaped, you know, if you lived on a farm, you know, I always think people who know horses when they watch Westerns, they get annoyed because the Westerns will have the cowboy ride the horse for days on end. And like, that's stupid.

You got to get off the horse, you got to get it water, you got to let it rest. Right? So that actually influences your view of life. But when, when you and I are shaped by like our phones where if my phone's not 100% after 40 minutes, I'm like, this is a piece of junk, right? And so that we start talking about power naps and like you should be able to just keep going with a very little bit of charge.

And I do think, you know, forever we thought it'd be really cool to make machines like people. But the irony as you know, is now we're really treating people like machines. And I do think there's going to be a huge backlash and it's starting already. With what with mental health and stuff? Yeah, mental health and even, I mean, my son who just graduated from college, we're just watching, you know, the news,

and I can't remember, you know, one of the Michelob or one of these, you know, beer commercials. But the whole commercial is this guy looking at his phone and no one's responding, and he eventually gets to this party because everyone's like, we are tired of our phones. We want to be with human beings. Like I do think people can feel this is not a sustainable flourishing life.

Yeah, it's so self-evident to people that are on the phones all the time that this is not making them happy. Do you think it'll start? I mean, already there's pushes for, not just in Christian circles, but outside, pushes for- Jonathan Haidt and others, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Social media fast and not giving kids phones early and all these things. And a growing number of churches are doing like church wide, like fast from screens, you know, for a month. And they found that a good number of people say, I've been so happy and free. I'm not going to, I might go back a little, I might integrate some things back to my life, but I'm not going to go all the way to where I was. Do you think in five, 10 years that And the irony is I actually suspect young people are going to be the ones leading the way counterintuitively. I was speaking at this conference on anxiety in Canada, um, that this kind of a denominational church thing put on. And at one of the breaks, there was this young couple and they called me over and they had these two little kids

and they said, um, cause technology was part of it. And they said, totally appreciate what you guys are talking about. They said, you know, we're not perfect. We're far from perfect. But when we come home, we, my wife and I, you know, they both said, we kind of put our phones to the side, try and pay attention to kids, but they said, you know, who's terrible is our parents. The grandparents. Yeah.

They, they both said they will come over. They'll sit on the couch. Their grandchildren are three feet from their feet and they're staring at their phones the whole time. And you could feel, and, and I've mentioned this now in various settings and grandparents, you can just feel how close it hits the home. Oh yeah. So I do think this idea of it's all these young people is not, not true or fair. Yeah. I've seen,'ve seen anecdotally, I've seen that like crazy, but then you know, I thought like our parents generation, you know, when the phone, when the actual phone on the wall rang, you wouldn't answer it.

But so I feel like that's almost like the Pavlov dog, you know, thing where it's like, where it's like when their cell phone gets an alert, which is could be every minute, you know, like I have to answer this, you know, or this text I have to respond right now. It's like, you know, you don't, you can be spawning three days and that's fine. You know? And then you have my dad who's like 87 and I picked up his phone and he had like literally like 27,000 unopened emails. I couldn't even, it just so stressed me out. So yeah, different world. Oh, that's funny. Yeah. Look, how do you, how do you handle this stuff? You live a, you live a super busy

life. What are some of the things that you've found that have been helpful to keep you humane? Oh, let's see. Um, well, I'm not gonna, I'm not going to be a good success story. So if that's what you're asking, that, you know, our family rhythm from the time we got married 20 something years ago, I just realized my anniversary is next week. I got to remember that. There's only for this. I know. Thank you. I appreciate it. There was a year when I kid you not both my wife and I both forgot her. Oh, that's fantastic. We woke up the next day. It cancels it out. Oh, well, I woke up the next day and I was like, my heart sunk. And I looked over my wife and she's like, Hey, good morning. And I'm like, happy anniversary. And she's like, Oh my word. I forgot. Like, Oh my gosh, I was off the hook.

There's been times when I was the only one that forgot. So our rhythm has been from the very beginning, we don't basically work on the weekends. I think right when we got married, I did say I need Saturday morning. Cause I was working a part-time job, full-time seminary. She was full-time work. And I said, I need like Saturday morning

to get some of my studies done. But beyond that, we took most of the weekend off. And then when we had kids, we never, never, even if I was, I mean, had some major deadline, like it was just a rhythm that weekends weren't a work time. We've, now that our kids are older and both my wife and I have multiple things going on, we have not always kept that. But that's been a big one. Also, we do work hard and play hard. So like we will take several weeks off a year for vacation. And, but then there's times, man, like even right now, there's several projects that are, we

have deadlines, both my wife and I are involved in two different organizations. I've got a book that's due, which I'm behind on. So yeah, right now it's that harvest where it's like, I just feel like this is just not at all sustainable. It's not. And that's the thing, like I can do harvest, but I can start to feel. And it's happening right now where I'm like, okay,

I got like two more weeks like this, but that's because it's been going on for a while, but I can, you know, have to, I like your story even. I mean, when we moved to London for my PhD, we didn't have any kids, but I think I was so panicked about, you know, can London for my PhD, we didn't have any kids, but I think I was so panicked about, can I do my PhD? All those insecurities and stuff.

So I'd wake up super early, I'd work. My wife and I would have dinner later in this tiny apartment and then I'd work again until eight, 8.30. And about four or five months in, she stopped and said, you're done, you're not doing that anymore. Cause she said, rightly, she said, you're done. You're not doing that anymore. Because she said, rightly, she said, you're going to now start to think that's normal.

And I'm not interested in being a single mom, all that. And so from that time on, really, basically, 5 o'clock, Monday through Friday, I'd stop. And we didn't do weekends. And that became a pattern. And it's similar. Like you said, that has been a gift. It's not like we're legalistic about it

But it has been really helpful. My problem is is I do have natural workaholic tendencies, so if my And in the past my wife and my kids have kept that in check you know because I Didn't know what to be there in the morning with them and I want to get home at a decent time To be with them, but if right now I mean to get home at a decent time to be with them. But if right now, I mean, our youngest is 16, he's got a job, sometimes he works nights, he's got school.

My wife has job work and stuff, sometimes she's busy. So if I'm left unchecked, I'll just work all day long. And that's where I'm, I've had these external things in my life to hold me in check, and now I'm worried that if those aren't there, will I be able to close the laptop at 5 or 6 PM, even though I have many other things I need to do, you know? I can relate. Yeah, and it just becomes, I think for all of us, there's no formula. It's just interesting. My hope is just we start to...

My big thesis is the Christian life is not superhuman. The Christian life is actually just calling people to be truly and fully human. Really think you could argue, you know, go there for and make humans, right? I don't mean like having babies, but I mean like the Christianity is inviting people not to become more than human, but just fully human.

And fully human is loving God, loving your neighbor, and rightly relating to creation. It's actually that simple. And sin disorders all of those things. And I do think in this frenetic pace, we don't see how it's affecting all three areas. And so our bodies, this is part of why embodiment is neglected. And yet more and more people are like, hey, you're breathing classes are on the, all of these things because people can just feel the disconnect. And yet there's, I do think there is a growing sense that, gosh, life without spirituality is an issue.

So non-Christians can sense it, right? It's this idea that we're gonna get more and more secular is being disproven and has been for a while now. Where does like diet and exercise fit into this as you reflect so much on the holistic nature of humanity? I mean, yeah, should we see diet and exercise almost like spiritual disciplines or I mean, of course they can become idols and stuff. Yeah. I mean, it's, I mean, it's, it's fascinating, isn't it? When you and I think through something like this, where it's, I think we're called to feast and we're called to fast. And, and

there is just something about that. Um, the language of diet though, just so easily brings with it all these kind of dysfunctional relationships with food. I'm sorry. I meant like healthy eating, not like, yeah, yeah. But okay. Yeah. And I do think, I do think there's something, there is wisdom in that, right?

There is, there is a health. I mean, an article I've never written, uh, just haven't had time, but I think would be really interesting is talk about, I believe in systemic sin, right? Systematic sin that affects structures, right? And during racial tensions, you have a lot of Christians who get all nervous about, no, no, it's all individual. And I actually would love to write something to show, I think food is a fantastic example of structural sin in the sense of, yes, of course you can choose to eat or not eat things. And there is personal responsibility, but there is a naivety to not realizing how much the kind of food we're being fed, the sugar levels in our food, the way things have been artificially

treated, how that is affecting all of us. And to just, and I see it all the time, especially in conservative circles where it's like, well, you just have well yes but it is kind of like just telling the addict just try harder that is part of the conversation but that there's a naivete of of these larger structures so all I have to say I do think a healthy relationship to healthy food is is a good thing and exercise is also like when you and I live, well, I don't know how it was in Scotland, but I didn't exercise for three years in London. Didn't need to, it was just life, right?

We didn't have a car, we walked everywhere. So part of the idea, because you and I, or at least I sit at my desk a lot, do these kinds of things. I now have to structure in time to exercise because our relationship to the earth is a little, it's changed and it's potentially problematic now. When I go to Europe, we will spend extended times in Europe.

Yeah, we spent a couple of months in France, almost every year we're there for three or four weeks. I'm going to be in Cambridge in a few weeks. And I especially, well, the UK is a little different. The food there could be, could get the best. But the pub food, oh my gosh. But like when I'm in France, I will eat bread all day long. I will have a glass of wine with my meals.

I will eat pasta. I will eat pizza. And I come back 10 pounds lighter. Part of it is I do think the ingredients in the food, you know, I think I read somewhere that there's like 700 ingredients that are allowed for European, in Europe, whatever, and like 10,000 in the US, is that,

I don't know, and the sugar content. People who are gluten sensitive can eat bread here and they go to Italy and they can eat it, no problem. Just pound it, yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah. And you're walking everywhere. My mile tracker on my phone. There's times I walk 1.2 miles a day, which is horrible. In Europe, it's 5 to 10. I feel like I'm like, am I going to run or am I just walking all the time? And like, I do wonder if like the human, I mean, up until recently, people naturally got 20, 30, 40,000 steps a day

and they're moving their bodies all the time. But now like you and I, you know, if I don't go to the gym today, I will have gotten like 17 steps because I work from home and I'm in front of a computer all day, you know? So yeah, I do wonder if we do have to go more out of our way to exercise, whereas in the past, throughout human history,

they didn't think about it. They just lived. Yeah, and even like it can sound, I do think, New Year's resolutions, all these amazing goals. But for me, and it took a long time to get comfortable, I've run some as I've gotten older, the knees aren't working quite as well in the ankles, but I spiritually, physically, emotionally, relationally am so much better when I'm going on like a 45 minute walk a day. Oh yeah.

Which if you would have asked me that eight years ago, I would have said, what a waste. Like how could you ever justify that? You know and and not like many of your listeners who think that's insane if you only knew my life There's no way I could do 45 minutes. But after a while, I thought there's no way I can't right I my ability to pray increases my ability to be present with with the people I'm actually present with I'm not really a heavy introvert but being a teacher and in front of people, that alone times become really important. So you got a devotional that just came out, right? You were never meant to do it all. So is this everything we're talking about? Is that-

Yeah, it's from drawing ideas from a larger book called, You're Only Human. But the idea was a lot of people who said, well, I love the book, but I can't get, it's too big for people. And so this is 40 days of very short devotion to try and give people an overview. And yeah, I really hope it just meets people where they're at. Is it like a, like short chapters, just giving people like kind of short piece of-

Literally 800 words. It's like two and a half pages with some questions. And the idea is to really like, there's chapters on why our bodies matter, right? Jesus and physical touch, which is all related to this idea. Like to be limited means you can only be in one place at a time, you can only know so much. So I'm really, it has to do with the church. There's stuff on the church, like don't feel guilty. You were never made to do everything in the church.

So what does faithfulness look like is what I'm interested in. It's really, I really want to talk about the goodness of being human. And I think in Christian circles, people immediately panic and think, do you not think that we're sinners? Of course I do. But that's not the only thing that's true about us. And yeah, the last thing I'd say is, I do think our strongest apologetics these days is not like arguments for God's existence or anything like that. I actually think the church can offer to the watching world a really robust view of what it means to be human, which is just very mundane. And the mundane this is beautiful. So I really think our best apologetic is showing people what it means to be human. Love of God, love of neighbor, love of the earth.

Do you find that pastors and people in ministry in particular struggle with their finitude? Massively. Yeah. You would be... Well, you actually wouldn't be amazed, but many people would be amazed at how many calls or conversations I get from pastors all the time. Some have had suicidal ideation. They're so lonely. They're overweight, all of these kinds of things. And they feel

so much shame and guilt because the congregations have such unrealistic expectations of them, and they have such unrealistic expectations of themselves. So one of the big communities I've been concerned with is pastors. I love working with pastors to try and encourage them, but it also means working with their congregations to get a healthier, more realistic view of life. Is it working less? It's not just... It's not necessarily working less. Yeah. Because, I mean, also it's just like, what is work? Is it work when I'm out in the yard with my son?

Right? So again, that's where I don't think a simple formula, it is letting love reshape our imaginations rather than productivity and efficiency, I think can change some of the questions, some of the equations we're using. Have you found it effective among pastors when you talk to them?

Like what are some key pieces of advice you give them? Yeah, yeah. A lot of pastors have said, I used to think the only thing I could pray when there was yet one more demand is, God, give me the energy to do this. And then they finally discover that's a good prayer and God often answers it. But it's legitimately also good prayer to say, God, you gave me this body, you gave me this family and these other responsibilities. I need you, you say you love your church more than I do.

I need you to provide someone else to do that thing or to care for that person because I can't do it. That's actually a prayer of faith too. Why is it the only prayer that seems faithful is that I would have enough energy to do it. So I do think re-imagining and creating some vacuums and people don't like vacuums, they fill them. And if no one fills the vacuum, then that thing probably needs to die. Kelly, thanks so much for the conversation. Again, you're the two books we've been kind

of referring to. The first one is your only human, the bigger book. And then the recently released devotional, you were never meant to do it all, which just came out. Well, it's, it's coming out at the time of the recording. By the time people listen to it, it'll already have been out. So thanks again, man, for your work. I love your intersection between pastoral theology and, and theological anthropology and even things like suffering and such important topics for us today. Thanks Preston. And I even where we started in this conversation, I love the fact that you are quick to listen

on some of these really hard issues. I love the way you're caring for people and have for a long time now. And so I just want you to know, I super appreciate. These are hard issues. I don't know where everyone agrees or disagrees, but I I love that you clearly love folks. So thanks for doing appreciate it This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.