Theories of Everything with Curt Jaimungal - Ross Coulthart on UFOs, Wilson Memo, SAFIRE Project, and Human Abductions #NASAtellthetruth

Episode Date: September 24, 2021

YouTube link: https://youtu.be/JM3kxeU_oDEAcclaimed journalist, Ross Coulthart, investigates the UFO phenomenon. Sponsors: https://curiositystream.thld.co/TOEb for 25% off Curiosity Stream. https://brilliant.org/TOE for 20% off. http://algo.com for supply chain AI.Patreon: https://patreon.com/curtjaimungal Crypto: https://tinyurl.com/cryptoTOE PayPal: https://tinyurl.com/paypalTOE Twitter: https://twitter.com/TOEwithCurt Discord Invite: https://discord.com/invite/kBcnfNVwqs iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/better-left-unsaid-with-curt-jaimungal/id1521758802 Pandora: https://pdora.co/33b9lfP Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4gL14b92xAErofYQA7bU4e Subreddit r/TheoriesOfEverything: https://reddit.com/r/theoriesofeverythingLINKS MENTIONED: -In Plain Sight: https://www.amazon.com/Plain-Sight-Investigation-Impossible-Science/dp/B09B7ZJ9TP/ (not an affiliate link) -ALGO's podcast (Amjad's): https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9IfRw1QaTglRoX0sN11AQQ -Tom Delonge / Brian Keating / Jim Semivan podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBSdg3nwxoo -The UFO Podcast with Ross: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJpgwNkO7fY -Truthseekers (Steve Cambian): https://www.youtube.com/c/Truthseekershow -Luis Elizondo interview ("somber"): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAmFlLfsZKM -Project Unity podcast: https://www.youtube.com/c/ProjectUnity -Red Panda Koala (Tom Delonge documentary): https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvSbzThCfsiETLp3eOdVkNw -NASA Footage (STS-48 Shuttle): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vVvEdPXOXg -James Oberg's debunk: http://www.jamesoberg.com/sts48.html -Ross Coulthart's documentary (UFO Phenomenon): https://youtu.be/sm6AL5lA4ZcLINKS NOT MENTIONED BUT PERTINENT: -Check out friend of the show (scientist on board with the Galileo Project), Prof. Brian Keating who has a new book out, Think Like a Nobel Prize Winner distilling his interviews with 9 Nobel Prize winners into actionable wisdom, tools, and life-hacks to release one's inner genius. Order it here https://amzn.to/2UPTxOI and tune into Brian’s YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/DrBrianKeatingTHANK YOU: -BigPhilCombo (on the discord) for managing the Discord voluntarily and making it a place where almost 900 people talk respectfullyJust wrapped (April 2021) a documentary called Better Left Unsaid http://betterleftunsaidfilm.com on the topic of "when does the left go too far?" Visit that site if you'd like to watch it.

Rost Coldheart is an Australian investigative journalist for programs like 60 Minutes, and he's one of the few acclaimed journalists to take the phenomenon of UFOs seriously. His new book, In Plain Sight, is an investigation into UFOs, as well as ostensibly impossible physics, and is linked below. Click on the timestamps if you'd like to skip this intro. For those of you who are new to this podcast, my name is Kurt Jeimungal. I'm a filmmaker with a background in mathematical physics, dedicated to the explication of what are called theories of everything from a theoretical physics perspective, but as well as delineating the possible connection consciousness has to the laws of physics,

provided these laws exist at all and are knowable to us. I'm a callow novice in this area, and thus most of my questions would be callow, which is why I generally turn it to the audience who comprise people far more knowledgeable on the topic of UFOs than myself. My angle is with regard to theoretical physics, particularly unification, and with regard to consciousness. Some don't have the time to watch a two-hour podcast on the topic of UFOs or a 2.5 hour podcast on knot theory and quantum field theory or a four-hour podcast of Chris Langan's CTMU, or have time to watch a seven-hour video on the topic of consciousness, such as that with Leo Gura,

which is why there's a second channel called Toe Clippings. It's essentially shareable, ingestible, two-minute to 15-minute bites. The link to that channel is in the description, or you can search Toe Clippings on YouTube, though be prepared for the repugnancy that follows. If you enjoy engaging and witnessing real-time conversation on the topics of physics, psychology, consciousness, and so on, then check the description for a link to the discord and the subreddit. There's also a link to the Patreon, that is patreon.com slash KurtJaiMungle, as the patrons and the sponsors are all that allow me to do this full-time. It would be near impossible for me to have conversations with Fidelity on the topics of loop quantum gravity, string theory, geometric unity is coming up at some

point, if not for your support. Thank you and that link again is patreon.com slash kurt jaimungal. With regard to sponsors, there are three. The first sponsor is Algo. Algo is an end-to-end supply chain optimization software company with software that helps business users optimize sales and operations, planning to avoid stockouts, reduce returns and inventory write-downs, while reducing inventory investment. It's a supply chain AI that drives smart ROI, headed by a bright individual by the name of Amjad Hussain, who's been a huge supporter of this podcast since near its inception. In fact, Amjad has a channel now, a podcast, about artificial intelligence and its connections

to business, as well as consciousness. So if you like that, then click on the link below and subscribe to his podcast, as by doing so you're supporting this channel as well. The second sponsor is Brilliant. Brilliant illuminates the soul of mathematics, science, and engineering with bite-sized interactive learning experiences. Brilliant's courses explore the laws that shape our world, which elevates math and science from something to be feared to a delightful experience of guided discovery. You can even learn group theory, which is what's being referenced when you hear people say that the standard model is predicated on U1 cross SU2 cross SU3. Those are technically Lie groups. Visit brilliant.org slash toe, T-O-E, for free and get 20% off the annual subscription. I recommend that you don't stop before four lessons,

and I think you'll be greatly surprised at the ease at which you can now comprehend subjects you previously had trouble grokking. The third sponsor is CuriosityStream. Now, CuriosityStream is interesting. It's like the Netflix for nerds, or the Disney Plus for the scientists in you, or the Hulu for history buffs. Speaking on the topic of consciousness and UFOs, there aren't many places with quality documentaries on the subject. If you're endeavoring to learn more about those topics, CuriosityStream acts as an ancillary to that quest, furnishing a variety of documentaries on consciousness and UFOs.

I recommend you watch Stephen Hawking's Favorite Places, which combines quite a few of the interests of this channel, namely the unification quest in physics, alien life, and artificial intelligence. Go to curiositystream.com slash toe, that is T-O-E, for unlimited access to some of the world's top documentaries and non-fiction series. Use the promo code T-O-E to get 25% off the annual subscription. That amounts to just about $15. That's approximately $1 per month,

which trounces virtually any of the other video streaming services. The link is below, and do let me know what you think of Stephen Hawking's favorite places. Many of you have asked how to support this channel without other platforms like Patreon, and visiting the sponsors such as CuriosityStream.com slash toe is one way to do that. More on them later. Thank you and enjoy this podcast with Ross Coulthart. Can you speak? How now, Brown Cow? 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9.

Okay, so we'll go live. Okay, if you can hear this, see this this then type in senzu bean senzu bean so ross is this your first item of the day or did you have some other tasks you got to before this it's my first item of the day i've just rolled out of bed to be honest kurt and uh had my my first my first coffee of the day as well great great great okay all right it seems like we're live so the first question comes from triple a star trader ross you've linked cattle mutilations to uaps and he's he's wondering if you have heard of human mutilations, potentially with special force assistance. Look, there's a lot of claims.

I mean, I think the most substantive evidence that I've seen to date that substantiates that there is indeed a danger for humans posed by UAPs is the Calaras, Brazil incident, which my friend James Fox, the filmmaker, is currently investigating in Brazil. But yes, I do think there's a link between cattle mutilations and the phenomenon. Whatever it is, I don't know. I have been absolutely swamped with veterinarians, animal carers up and down the East Coast, particularly of Australia, since I aired the story of Mick and Judy Cook who live up near Gympie in far north Queensland

in Australia. And they've suffered, I think they know of, the loss of 15 cattle. But as far as I know, there's been no human woundings or killings or whatever in this part of the world. And I shake my head as I say that because it just sounds preposterous. You know, we're talking about animals being mutilated for some reason. And I wish I could understand the phenomenon. I don't know what it is, but I've seen up close the kind of injuries that these animals suffer and they're not

injuries that can be caused by a simple scalpel or even a laser cutter or all manner of things that you think would be able to do that kind of operation. You're talking about completely exsanguinated bloodless animals that sometimes within a few minutes are found with key organs missing from their bodies with no apparent disruption to the other organs. And the one that really shocked me was a very well respected veterinarian in far northern New South Wales, about 10 hours north drive of where I live. And he told me that he was doing an autopsy on a cow that was found dead in a paddock, in a field. And in order to do the autopsy...

Dead in a paddock? In a paddock, in a field. Oh, okay. The British term for paddock, yeah. Australian. All right, got it. field. The British term paddock, Australian. And he moved the two stomachs to get to the third stomach. And then he discovered that the third stomach wasn't there. And he sent me the autopsy records and the photographs to show what he saw. And as he said to me, he said, Ross, I can't think of any way. He says, if anybody's

ever done an autopsy on a car, that's how you do it. That's how you get to the third stomach, you have to lift aside the other two stomachs. And he said, I've never seen anything quite like it. Because when he got to that third cavity, it just it was empty, something had removed the stomach. And there's an incredible mystery there. And I wrestled with it, to be honest, I wrestled as a journalist with whether I should link cattle mutilations to the phenomenon. But so many people have contacted me since I feel very much vindicated in terms of making that decision. I just can't explain it. But in terms of human mutilation, the ones that I do know of are the Brazil Calaras case. I've spoken very haltingly with a Spanish friend to, what was it, Spanish or Portuguese? She speaks both. But she spoke to some military people that gave me a bit of a

background on Calaras. And I'm really thrilled to hear that James Fox is now in Vaginha, the town where a lot of this happened in Brazil. And I'm really excited to see what he comes out with, with his film. Alien alcoholic asks, have you heard of facilities that are housing live aliens? No. Okay. Now I have a question about those human mutilations. Have you read Robert Dolan's book on the difference? It's like a taxonomy of aliens, like a speciation,

the different types of aliens. No, sir. I have not. You mean Richard Dolan? Yeah, Richard Dolan. No, I haven't. I've read a few books by Richard, notably the two volumes of National Security State. But I haven't read his taxonomy of UFO, of aliens. No, I haven't. The reason I'm asking is that he would say there are different kinds. So one is a gray, then the other seems to be lizard. One seems to be human-esque. And I'm curious if the human mutilations are tied to a specific type.

That is to say, are there friendlier types? I don't know. Kurt, you've got somebody who starts, I work on evidence. I don't even know if I accept that there are reptilians or greys or whatever. I mean, I haven't seen them. So frankly, I just don't know whether to buy into that. What I can tell you is I accept that there is a genuine mystery, that there is an anomalous phenomenon that is manifesting itself to humanity. It's now being detected by very high-tech sensor systems and the Pentagon has admitted it's real.

What they haven't admitted when we're talking about human mutilations is cattle mutilations and human mutilations. But privately, you know, people, and also I noticed Chris Mellon actually went on the record with me in my documentary. He acknowledged, for example, that mutilations were a phenomenon that was real. But when it comes to taxonomy of aliens, I'm not there yet. You know, I'm not even sure this is alien. There's a phenomenon. I'm not even sure. I mean, I've spoken to friends who've

told me that, that they have witnessed non human entities up close. I don't know. I just don't know. And really, I think you as a scientist would understand this, is I find it very hard to believe anything until I've seen multiple corroboration and verified experimentation to prove what I'm seeing is real. Because if you accept that, and this is the case, if you accept that the and this is the case, if you accept that the Undersecretary for

the Department of Defense was prepared for a briefing, there was a briefing prepared called, which included a series of PowerPoints, and one of them was slide nine. And on that slide, it talked about how the Pentagon was advising or people inside the Pentagon were advising the Undersecretary for the Department of Defense, that whatever the phenomenon is, it is capable of manipulating human perception and consciousness. And if you accept that, I mean, I'm not detracting from the claims that people are making about seeing aliens or seeing life forms or seeing entities of some kind. But if you accept that, how do we know what they're seeing is real? Now, I'm not saying it's all a hallucination or an illusion. I've had some very angry experiences or abductee claimants who

have jumped on me in the last few weeks for supposedly criticising their experience. I'm not. But what I'm saying is we have to approach this with a reasonable degree of scientific objectivity. So I'm not yet ready to say this is little green men or reptilians or greys or tall whites or whatever. I've spoken to people who claim to have had these experiences, but unless

I can verify them, this is the problem I have with a lot of experience at claims. I'm not in their bedroom. I mean, I had a conversation with a guy who is, or sorry, was very, very senior in the FBI during my research. And I expected to make this sort of hard-headed skeptic about the phenomenon. Instead, he told me that he woke up in the middle of the night and he and his wife were paralyzed and there were grey, big-headed, big-eyed aliens sitting at the end of the bed. And he told me this incredible account and trusted me to keep his name

confidential. But he wanted me to know it was real. And I said to him, but how do you know it was real? You know, how do you know you weren't in a some kind of induced dream state. And he told me a few things that made me think that maybe he was having a genuine experience. But then I said to him, well, the phenomenon is capable, allegedly, reportedly of manifesting itself in different ways to humans. In the 19th century, when people looked up in the sky and saw UFOs, they were looking at flying airships, flying ships in the sky. In the book of Ezekiel, they describe winged chariots. You know, there's been a phenomenon going back 1000s of years, but how do we know that whatever it is, it's not manifesting itself to us in ways that allow our brains to comprehend it, and our perception and indeed our consciousness.

That's the only question I ask when people start talking about taxonomy of aliens or whatever. How do we know what they're seeing is physically what's there? Speaking of how we know, this question comes from Stan Alister. It's a question I'm sure you've gotten plenty of times and something you've thought about yourself, which is there are many, there are billions of smartphones. Why is it that there aren't clear videos or clear photos? Even though there are clear photos of anomalous events,

let's say unexpected events that are rare, such as certain meteorites. There's a few ways to answer that question. The first is that he's absolutely right. There should be more images, there should be more videos taken. But one of the things that I was struck by when I started looking at the claims that have been made, and I've also spoken to people in various three-letter agencies about this, it is quite clear that the phenomenon is capable, I think one of the five observables that Lou Elizondo described was that the phenomenon is capable of remotely interfering

with human technology. And Robert Salas, for example, described to me, the Minuteman missile launch commander from the 1960s described to me how whatever the object was, it was able to manipulate remotely the control systems for his ICBM missiles and shut them all down one by one. I've had conversations with people in Russia who've told me about similar things in Russia, but it was even more frighteningly the other way. All of a sudden, their missiles went up online, and were rolled ready for launch, literally one button push from launch. So something is capable of remotely affecting the human technology. I know that's mind boggling. And

as a hard headed journo, I find it incredible that I'm having these conversations, but this is what the Pentagon has been advised. This is the thing that I find interesting is that a lot of the skeptics and the debunkers have not yet caught up with, with all respect to them, the evidence that is being gathered to show that the Pentagon is aware of things that this phenomenon can do that cannot be explained by known technologies. And so coming back to the question, a human camera, I would have thought, operates electromagnetically, it's quite clear that there are aspects to the phenomenon that are fundamentally electromagnetic. Is it remotely possible that they're capable of meddling with our technology,

that they're capable of affecting our capacity to take good photographs? I'm struck Kurt by the number of times that I've spoken to people who've witnessed the phenomenon up close. And I've said to them, why the hell didn't you take a photo? You know, you were there, you had a bloody camera. And they go, you know, that's weird. It didn't occur to me. That has happened time and time again. And it's interesting, because there's a series of incidents up around a place called Northwest Cape, a very remote Northwest Cape, a very remote military base in Western Australia, called the Harold E. Holt Naval Communications Station, which was an American base until 1991, 1992. And I've spoken to three people who've witnessed the phenomenon in that part of the world. And each one of them describes this kind of weird feeling where they've actually forgotten about their experience until, in one case, two years later.

Nikolai, the guy that I was talking to, was telling me that he'd seen an object by the side of the road, like a car standing on its end, a big solid oval that was clearly metallic in some kind, but glowing, emitting some kind of plasma glow. And he said he didn't even remember it until two years after the fact. So I keep on coming back to the fact that one of the things that we just have to acknowledge is that the Pentagon is being advised. The US Department of Defense is being advised by the people who know from the office

of the Undersecretary of Defense Intelligence, probably Lou Elizondo and his team while they were working on AATIP, but also other people I'm advised, including the UAP Task Force, they're being advised that whatever this phenomenon is, it's psychometric, psychotronic, psychotronic weaponry. It has the capacity to meddle with our minds and to meddle with our technology. So I don't think it's entirely outside the realm of possibility that cameras are a bit of a doddle for whatever it is to interfere with. Speaking of meddling, I'm curious if you as a journalist, maybe it's a selfish question on my part, by investigating this phenomenon, have you had the government come to you and tell you to speak or not speak about certain subjects? Have you had your phones tapped in any? Have you had your emails? Well, emails are tapped to some degree already, but I think you understand what I'm asking. Yeah, I don't want to sound melodramatic, but I think any journalist who does the kind of work that I do, I do a lot of national security, a lot of defense and a lot of intelligence work. I just naturally assume that my phones are off all the time that somebody's listening. One of the things that people need to understand is that Signal, which is an app that a

lot of people use in the belief that it's totally and utterly safe is absolutely compromised. I know they'll dispute this, but my understanding is that the Five Eyes has had the capacity to access the signal encrypted communication system and probably all the others for quite a few years. People who are interested in this should read a people who are interested in this should read a series of articles about the CIA's penetration of a company called Crypto AG, which was a company in Western Europe, I think it was German or Swiss, Swiss, which for years sold some of the best encryption equipment in the world. And it turned out that it was totally compromised and the CIA had had a backdoor into the technology for years. out that it was totally compromised and the CIA had had a backdoor into the technology for years. So people like me assume as a matter of course that our communications are compromised. I've learned from people in the intelligence services about ways to communicate very safely. I mean,

a few tips. If you're not using a VPN, you're insane. And you should use that VPN in conjunction with good quality encryption technology. I also use message boards online in the dark web to communicate with some of my better sources. web to communicate with some of my better sources. But have I had warnings from government? No, in fact, I've had encouragement. I've had encouragement from people in both Australia's intelligence services and enormous encouragement from people in America. Because I think, frankly, what's my best interpretation of why this has been kept a secret? Because it has. There's been a cover up for years. Let's be honest about this. I don't know exactly what they're covering up, but they've been covering stuff up for years. Why have they covered it up? I actually suspect it's as simple as the majority of people who are aware of the phenomenon inside, certainly the five eyes,

that's Australia, New Zealand, Canada, the UK and the US. The majority of people who are aware of the phenomenon inside the five eyes aren't briefed into the ultra secret material. So to them, it's a genuine mystery. And the people that I've spoken to in the main, in the main, the people that I've spoken to, at least at the very beginning of my research, were people who were prepared to privately acknowledge to me that yes, the phenomenon is real. But we're buggered if we can understand what it is. And, you know, I've spoken to people, for example, in our intelligence and defence here in Australia, who've told me that, you know, there are objects, mainly orbs, but also craft routinely seen around some of our more sensitive defence installations,

particularly Pine Gap, which is the really super secret base in the middle of Australia that we run jointly with America. And they've said to me that, frankly, their view is the reason it's not talked about is because governments are kind of embarrassed about admitting it. That, you know, we're spending billions of dollars a year for national defence and the protection of our population. I think America has spent over a trillion dollars since 9-11. And to what effect, if there is this technology, this intelligent technology operating in our skies, our oceans and our atmosphere, and our orbit, to what effect is this money being expended if frankly, governments can't protect the public against whatever it is, or at least inform the public of whatever it is?

So I guess I'm giving you a very long-winded answer, but I want to give you a kind of a cultural understanding of where I sit. I think most people that I've spoken to in defence and intelligence, in agencies that should know, privately admit to me that they are as confounded by the mystery as you and I are. But I have also spoken to people who privately admit that they know more, and that the US knows a great deal more, but that the United States has a very close hold on that information. And it's more than top secret SCI. This is something that is very, very closely guarded. And the number of people that are actually briefed into it inside the military defense intelligence infrastructure in the United States is actually very few. It doesn't include presidents, and it doesn't include Congress, which I find breathtaking.

So yeah, I mean, I hope that answers your question. Sure. You also mentioned you were encouraged by some of the people in the government. Now, when I was speaking to Jim, I'm not sure if you saw this, but I was speaking with Brian Keating and Tom DeLonge and Jim Semivan. I'll link that in the description. And in that conversation, Jim said, when I asked him, how do you distinguish between psyops or disinformation campaigns and so on? He said that the CIA doesn't conduct disinformation campaigns anymore.

It's illegal. Right, right. Bullshit. That's just such, I mean, I have no disrespect to Tom. I'm sorry, I'm a keen student of CIA, MI6, SIS and Australian disinformation over the years. And one of the things you have to be wise to as a journalist that covers intelligence matters is disinformation is part and parcel with great respect of how organisations like the CIA operate. And for heaven's sake, we need them. I mean, we need disinformation.

I mean, the sad fact is that the CIA was a victim of disinformation going into the Iraq War. I mean, one of the biggest catastrophes in recent time was the disinformation that was spun by Ahmed Chalabi in the Iraqi National Congress to entice America into an invasion of Iraq on the false premise that there were weapons of mass destruction. into an invasion of Iraq on the false premise that there were weapons of mass destruction. And the thing that I don't think has been adequately explored around the world is the fact that America itself and Britain and Australia were all victims of one of the most clever disinformation operations in recent time. So the notion that intelligence services don't and aren't still using disinformation to me is incredibly naive.

Disinformation is how intelligence operates. And one of the things I'm wise to as a journalist is, this is why I, you know, I've had people tell me, for example, that there are craft, non human technology sitting in warehouses somewhere in America. Now, a lot of people in ufology, when I say that, they think I'm saying, yeah, that's real. I believe it's real. I don't. I can't. Nobody should. Nobody should believe any of this until they've seen it with their own eyes and until we've actually literally kicked the tires of the TR-3B, if it does have tires. But frankly, we have to be skeptical because one of the plausible explanations for me in my mind about why America might be talking about this stuff now is because it's worried about a confrontation with China. And maybe it's trying to send a message to China

that it has some ace in the hole technology, perhaps derived from alien technology, that it's capable of using and pulling out of the barrel if it needs to in a confrontation. And, you know, frankly, people have told me that is the case, but I'm not going to believe it until I see it because disinformation is so wild in intelligence. You know, I've been lied to so many times by spies and as journalists you just you just have to walk away because the first thing they're wanting you to do is get really excited and go oh wow you know I've been told this by a real spy and I can remember very early on in my

career when I did meet my first people who were working in intelligence, I was actually based in Southeast Asia. And I met a CIA station chief in a certain Asian country. And I was flattered to be a young freelance journalist and being taken out for a lunch in a restaurant I couldn't afford by a guy who I knew was agency. And then I realized because I'd been in possession of information the week before, I was being lied to. And he wanted me to push a particular line to support a particular opposition group in a particular country. And- You realized that in the moment while you were speaking with them? I did. And I realized I was being manipulated. And this is something we all have to be wise to in ufology. I mean, it may very well still be, and I really hope this is the case, if this is true, it may very well still be that America really does have anti-gravitic technology. You know, maybe they've developed this on their own, and maybe it's got

nothing at all to do with aliens. And maybe there's been a clever disinformation program to try and spread the notion around the world that America is invincible because it's somehow got alien technology. I mean, I just don't know. But I think we should really keep an open mind. I mean, I was amused. I got a bollocksing from some dweeb debunker the other day who said I believe in aliens and I believe in UFOs. I don't necessarily. What I'm doing is I'm exploring the mystery, which is what journalists should be doing. And there's a fundamental misunderstanding here.

I think this is one of the things that has scared journalists off understanding here, I think this is one of the things that has scared journalists off, because there's a tendency, I think, for people to assume that because I'm engaging with this subject matter and taking it seriously, and I do think it should be taken seriously, that I believe credulously everything that everybody says. I'm sorry, but I don't, and I don't think we should. Do you think part of the reason for this ridicule, this jibing from large media organizations against publishing anything related to UFOs is related to Chomsky's manufacturing consent? There's this relationship between the media and the government, a symbiotic, or you can see it as parasitic. relationship between the media and the government, a symbiotic, or you can see it as parasitic?

Look, I've been in completely unrelated issues. I've been in editors' offices in news media organizations when I'm in possession of highly sensitive information. I once did a story for one of Australia's top public affairs programs called Four Corners on the public broadcast at the ABC. And by complete chance, there was a lot of unhappiness inside our equivalent of the CIA, ASIS, the Australian Secret Intelligence Service. And a number of Australian spies went public with me on national television. went public with me on national television. And one of the things they talked about was favours that we would do, plausibly deniable favours that we would do for either the Brits or the Americans, which gave the Brits plausible deniability

or the Americans plausible deniability in the event that anyone got caught or in the event that the operation became public. And a lot of this involved bugging of Warsaw Pact embassies during the Cold War. If you wanted a bug planted in the embassy of the Polish Republic during the Cold War, you got the Aussies or the Kiwis to do it or the Canadians funnily enough, your CSE was very involved. And so the junior cousins in the Five Eyes Alliance were basically used as stooges to go around doing plausibly deniable favours. And I can remember when we did that story, we actually edited it off site, because we were

aware that there were people inside the public broadcaster who probably did report back to the security services what was coming up on programs like ours. So we kept it off the books, and we kept it super, super confidential. And then in the wake of the program, one of the things that we revealed, for example, was that, and I still to this day, I find it amazing, because we were sending our tech ops boys, guys who bugged rooms with highly sophisticated bugs, to Kuwait at the end of the 1991 Gulf War to bug Kuwaiti government offices so that British government companies could win contracts in Kuwait against Australian companies. And so these spies were saying to me, why are we doing this? You know, we're being paid money by Britain to bug Kuwait government officers without the knowledge of Australian spymasters. And these plausibly deniable favors are being done in such a way

that they're actually competing against Australian companies for the same contracts that are being awarded. And another thing that was happening was that in the period prior to the handover in Hong Kong, you know, incredibly sensitive negotiations were going on between the British held Hong Kong and the Chinese government. And there were Chinese government offices in Hong Kong. And the British wanted to know what the Chinese negotiating position was. And so they planted bugs in the Chinese government's offices in Hong Kong. And the people who did that were Australians. And we revealed that on this program. And I can remember, oh, my God, the pressure we came under as a TV network, especially

because we were a government owned broadcaster. I thought for a while I was going to go to jail because, you know, we were revealing national secrets and we'd essentially encouraged people who were under a security oath to reveal what they knew. And the nice thing about it was, I'm sure they'd still dispute this to this day, but there were reforms made in the accountability procedures of the intelligence services to improve themselves as a result of what we revealed. And it was a good healthy purge, frankly. But what it taught me was

the level of undisclosed communication that occurs between government and a news organization, even a public broadcaster like the ABC in Australia or your CBC in Canada. There are informal chats. There are informal relationships. And I'm sure there is surveillance of journalists in this country. I've had reason to believe over the years that, yes, I am being tapped from time to time. I often do sensitive investigations that upset governments. And I guess I just take it for granted that they're going to monitor me.

And one of the things that I'm agonized about is making sure I protect sources. This is one of the big problems for me when I was writing my book. You know, you agonize about making sure that if you're going to approach somebody and invite them to give information, you know, you need to be able to protect them. You have an ethical responsibility to protect them. And I've worked out ways of doing this in the course of my research for the book that I hope have protected the confidentiality of some of my more sensitive sources. of some of my more sensitive sources. But yes, there is a nexus between media organisations and government when it comes to intelligence-related matters

that makes it very, very difficult for me to say that we are absolutely free. And I've seen compromises made inside organisations when we've got big stories, which I find kind of puzzling and irrational. And it reeks to me that somebody's ahead of me. I had an incident once where I was investigating what are called disruption operations. There were refugees coming on boats from Indonesia across to Australia. And I stumbled by complete chance across a people smuggling disruption operation being run by,

I thought, our federal police. And it was done in conjunction with members of our defense forces. And it was only belatedly that I discovered that it was being done also in conjunction with our ACES, our Secret Intelligence Service. And there was some pretty grubby things being done to stop boats from getting to Australia to disrupt people smuggling operations. And that's the scariest I've ever been in my career. When I think one morning I came into my office early and I turned on my computer, it had just been in sleep mode and I suddenly realized that the cursor on my screen was moving through files and I wasn't touching it and more importantly whoever the person was when I did take control of the cursor in the two or three minutes before they realized that

they'd been compromised, I realized that whoever they were had super user status. They were logged into my system as a super user. And I could get into anywhere on the network into places that I couldn't normally get into. And I still remember I rang the IT department and I said, guys, are you in my computer? And they go, no. And I said, I've got this weird thing where the cursor is moving on its own accord. And they told me to check your mouse, you know, all these silly things, turn your computer on again and off again. And then I said, yeah, but I can get into X file. And I didn't say what, I'm not saying here what that file was. But suffice to say the network at

the time that I, the network that I worked for at the time was owned by a billionaire called Kerry Packer. And I realized that not only did I get into all of the files in the news network, I could also get into all of the files in his business network. And I remember I said this to the IT guy and I could hear him running down the corridor towards my office. And then both of us watched as this cursor moved across my screen and then eventually just disappeared. And so somebody was on my computer. And it's the one time I've been aware as a journalist that somebody was actually accessing my material. And I can tell you, I was scared. It was a really scary time because you realize that when the forces of the

state are deployed on intelligence matters, there's a degree of ruthlessness and a degree of willingness to break laws, to act unethically and improperly, because they are sanctioned to break laws. Intelligence services are allowed to do things that other sections of the government aren't allowed to do. And it scared me. It scared me as a journalist. And for a while there, I stayed away from the whole subject matter because it was quite intimidating. The funny thing is that with the phenomenon with UFOs, UAPs, when I've engaged with people at a senior level in government. And after a fair period of chatting

about other things, I introduced the subject of UAPs. There's two things I expect. The first is ridicule, no laughter. And the second is a complete reluctance to engage. And you know what, neither has happened. I've been quite surprised. I've spoken to ministers and former ministers in our government. I've spoken to people in our intelligence and defence services. And when I raised the subject of anomalous phenomena, they were immediately engaged. And they have their own stories. Exactly.

And it made me realise as a journalist how badly we've dropped the ball on this because there was, talking about disinformation, there was a very deliberate disinformation program instituted by particularly the CIA in the 1960s and the 1970s. 1970s. And for all I know, it might have been for quite laudable reasons, because apparently, especially during Project Blue Book, they were just getting swamped. All of the different agencies that were responsible for monitoring foreign incursions into America were getting swamped with the sightings of anomalous objects. And you can see in the paperwork that there was a growing concern that they weren't able to get on top of in the event of a Soviet attack. They wouldn't be able to get on top of which warnings were legitimate and which warnings were just this weird

anomalous phenomena that nobody really wanted to talk about. And I can sort of understand why they wanted to shut it down. To me, that's a semi-plausible reason. And it's interesting because when I have engaged with people about this in government, I've actually been very pleasantly surprised. And it's why, as a journalist, I feel motivated to continue, because there is a willingness to accept that, yes, this is a legitimate subject for investigation. And yes, friends, the Americans are probably hiding something from us. We accept that, yes, this is a legitimate subject for investigation. And yes, our friends, the Americans are probably hiding something from us. We accept that, Roscoe, but that's pretty much

parcel and parcel of the Five Eyes. Yes, we're cleared into the intelligence that goes through the sharing agreements under the Five Eyes Agreement. But we're very, very well aware that the Americans are always working on things in private aerospace and new defense technologies that we're not always immediately read into. And I think a lot of them assume that the objects that they're seeing are black American technology, but they're definitely seeing things. Razor blades are like diving boards. The longer the board, the more the wobble, the more the wobble, the more nicks, cuts, scrapes. A bad shave isn't a blade problem, it's an extension problem. Henson is a family-owned aerospace parts manufacturer that's made parts for the International Space Station and the Mars

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What makes you think that your computer is safe when you're using a VPN or on the dark web, if they can access your computer and perhaps screen capture, even take keyboard logs? One of the things I regularly do, and I've been doing this for a while, and anybody can do this, is you can download some pretty good virus Trojan checking software from a company called iAmazing, virus Trojan checking software from a company called iAmazing, who, in particular, they've been able to detect the NRO Pegasus software, which is this really intrusive software that's been used very aggressively against journalists, including, sadly, the guy who was chainsawed to pieces by the Saudis in Turkey. You know, there's been increasingly, there's been misuse of intelligence-related technologies, particularly those built by the Israelis

who are pretty ruthless in this regard. One of the things I've done a story about, and you can actually, I think you can find this on the web. When I was at 60 Minutes Australia, I did a story that actually CBS 60 Minutes picked up as well on the SS7, the Signaling System 7 system that operates behind mobile phone telephony, which essentially leaves a backdoor in all mobile phones.

These mobile phones that are so ubiquitous that we use around the world now without even thinking, they are wide open to tapping, wide open. It's such a huge hole and it's never been fixed because to fix it, you would actually need to change the whole architecture of mobile phone telephony. And I think it's really important that people know this because I assume as a matter of course, that all communications are compromised. I use communication systems that to a lot of people would look insane to protect the security of some of my more sensitive contacts. And that literally involves both of us logging on with a VPN and Tor software, going into the dark web and accessing a place in the dark where we essentially leave messages for each other. That's about the only way a virtual dead letterbox that I can think of, of coming anywhere near

being able to protect the confidentiality of a secure source. And I'll go to those steps. I'll go to those measures. And I've warned, I've done speeches where I've talked about how wide open mobile phone telephony is. And I see, I was shortly before the lockdown was instituted here in Australia. I had lunch with a federal minister in our government who's in a very sensitive portfolio. And he was taking phone calls from his staff on his normal mobile. And I said, don't you have an encrypted phone? And he went, ah, that's effing bullshit. You know, he says bloody things that slow things down and you can't hear, you know. And I said, yeah, but you realize how

wide open these phones are? And he went, yeah, yeah, that's what ASD tell me all the time. And ASD is the Australian Signals Directorate. They're the people that they do the bugging with the National Security Agency as part of the Five Eyes, but they are also responsible for communications, infrastructure security in this country. And, you know, I know that ministers are warned all the time not to use mobile phones, but what they don't realize, and I emulated this in a program where I was in London, and a bunch of hackers in Germany, all I've done was give them my mobile. a bunch of hackers in Germany, all I'd done was give them my mobile. And I was in London, and I said, I'm going to be having a phone call with a federal politician in Canberra in Australia, at 7pm London time, can you hack me? And these German hackers from the chaos computer club,

working with a German company that with legal authorization from the German government, we're using a SS7 portal, which is a portal that opens on the internet to give you access to mobile phone telephony. They were able to hack my phone call by only knowing my phone number. Because once they had my phone number, they were able to get my IME code. Once they had my IME code they were then able to patch into my phone call using this Signaling System 7 backdoor messaging channel that's used for mobile phone telephony and I really think this is important and I'm sorry if I'm sounding like a nerd for a moment but if anybody wants to see my story about this I'm pretty sure it's on the web just Google Ross Coulthard mobile phone telephony, 60 Minutes Australia. It is an absolute outrage

that the communications companies haven't patched up these holes. And I always laugh when you read Apple giving assurances that their phones have been made more secure or where you read people from different encryption companies talking about how safe their phones are because they've got encryption and various levels of 245-bit encryption or whatever. The reality is that if you have the backdoor that exists in mobile phone telephony, mobile phones are wide open. All governments know this and all spy organizations know this. And a lot of private corporations that sell data know this. And one of the things I did as part of my research was I

approached companies in the US that freely sell this technology, they offer it for a lot of money to anybody prepared to pay. And you can literally listen in, I could if I wanted to listen to all of your phone calls, Kurt, and I had the money, I could do it tomorrow. And it doesn't matter what you put on your phone. And so people have got to stop thinking that communications are in any way safe. And I say this to journalists all the time. I occasionally teach at journalism schools and I say to students, you know, you guys really need to understand the importance of protecting sources. And there's always a kind of a nervousness about it because for millennials, this is how they communicate. This is how they

engage. This is how they engage with culture. And what we don't realize is how much we've given away as a result of having this easy communication access and what it's doing to investigative journalism. Because I assume as a matter of course, that if I'm communicating on a mobile phone, any communication is being monitored and listened to. Does that apply to if you're browsing or if you're going on YouTube or messaging over a certain app? Or is it only when you call someone? If you're using your mobile phone, either on the web or as a communication tool, they can track you. There's no problem.

It's very, very easy to get hold of anything, any data, any voice message, any data, anything that's going over your phone if you're using your phone. When it comes to, say, using your PC or your Apple laptop to browse the internet, I mean, sure, you should use a VPN. And I use Tor a lot for confidential communications with sources and for searches where I don't want people to know what I'm searching. There's a great search engine called DuckDuckGo, which is an anonymized search engine.

But even then, you should be using that in conjunction with Tor. And you should be updating the latest versions of Tor. I'm also, I used for years, a thing called PGP, pretty good privacy, which was an encrypted system. And if people look, they'll find there are very similar systems like that that are commercially available. And again, because of crypto AG, which I told you about earlier,

I assume that all of these have got backdoors in them and that a determined state aggressor can access any communications it wants to. I mean, there are Trojans that can be inserted on any mobile phone simply by you receiving that Trojan. You don't even have to click on it. So frankly, if somebody wants to hack you, they can hack you. But am I really that important? By the way, someone said that you may be one of the most important people in the world because you're breaking this UFO case. Oh, thanks very much. This comes from the journalist David Bates, who can be followed at David B. Reiter.

He wants to know, given that you've published in a variety of outlets, is there a particular, do you work on UFO stories for a particular outlet that you know will back him up? Sorry, that you know will back you up? Or do you have to pitch it to an editor? I guess what I'd really like to know is, is it possible that Ross's work may appear

in the New York Times and may even collaborate with Leslie Keen? I work as a freelance journalist until a few years ago, I was working as an investigative reporter for Australia's 60 Minutes program. But I have to be honest, their commitment to investigative journalism diminished. And they just weren't interested in what I like doing anymore. And quite frankly, a lot of media organisations aren't. And the only solution to that is to become a freelancer and do it yourself. And I've been really happily surprised

because there are other organisations that do want my content. And I've freelanced, I've sold articles all around the world. I've made TV documentaries both here in Australia and overseas. I'm an independent producer. I'm pitching documentary series and dramatisation series at the moment. And, yes, I have written in the past for The New York Times. I've written for a lot of the world's top newspapers

over the years. And I make documentaries. And as people would know, if you go to the Channel 7 Australia Spotlight program, if you just go into YouTube and put in Channel 7 Spotlight UFO, you'll be able to access for free on YouTube, the program that I made called the UFO Phenomenon. And I think in its current iteration, it's got about two and a half million to 3 million views alone. And that's the second or third time we've put it up on YouTube. So I think we're now five or 6 million views, which is just mind boggling. And so, yeah, I'm

finding that it's quite funny. In the past, I've had media organizations that are quite reluctant to engage with the subject of UFOs because they're worried about stigma or ridicule. But the lesson from the UFO phenomenon, which I published in late May, I think it was, god time blight. But the lesson from that film is the audience know what the audience wants. I have just been overwhelmed in the last few months. I'm physically and mentally exhausted at the moment from the scale of response that I've had to both my book and also to the film. And it's very gratifying. I mean, the one thing a journalist loves more than anything else is knowing that his audience are actually engaging with

and taking an interest in the journalism that you make. And that's certainly the case with subject matter like UAPs, UFOs. And I find it very gratifying, but also the media organisation that I have the closest relationship at the moment, which is a huge commercial network called Channel 7 Australia. I work for them as a contributing freelancer. They are desperate for me to do more UFO stories because they write their socks off. They've discovered that the public are really interested in this subject matter. And I was saying to them, I can remember, I went for lunch with a couple of the guys behind the program late last year. And I

said, Oh, look, I've got this. I've got this documentary that I want to do about UFOs. And I sort of waited for them to giggle nervously. And instead, they went, absolutely, we really want it. And it's interesting, because they're getting the same level of response, you know, they went, absolutely, we really want it. And it's interesting because they're getting the same level of response. You know, they've never had a response like this to a story before. I mean, a TV network in Australia does not get five or six million views on YouTube for a story. And the reason why they're getting this response is because, you know, I'm fulfilling a need, people are interested in the subject matter. And I hope I pray that I'm engaging with it in an objective and fair and impartial way and using the skill set that I would normally use as an investigative journalist

to analyze anything. And I think that's what people are responding to that. With no disrespect to any of my peers. One of the problems I have with ufology is I think there's what people are responding to, that with no disrespect to any of my peers, one of the problems I have with ufology is I think there's far too much ad lib acceptance of assertions. You know, people want it, even though they want to believe, I'm not into belief. When people ask me, do I believe in UFOs? I say, look, I just don't know.

I really don't know. What I do know are certain things. There is an anomalous phenomenon that is clearly engaging with humanity. I don't care what the debunkers or the skeptics say. When I had my meetings with different people from different three-letter agencies in the US and conversations with people in your country, Australia, New Zealand and Britain and France, it became immediately clear to me that the military and intelligence services of all of our countries are very aware of the reality of the phenomenon. And they are not able to offer prosaic explanations for that phenomenon. And to use Lou's observables, they are, they're doing

hypersonic maneuvers, tens of thousands of kilometers an hour. They're real solid objects. Lou uses the term, I noticed, craft, vehicle more often. He started out saying objects, but increasingly, have you noticed, he started using the word craft or vehicle. They are clearly intelligently controlled. They're responding in an intelligent way. And so if you go through all of those observables, and when I've run them, I've, you know, I've run them past, they're very useful, because I've run them past different officials in different countries. And they all agree, you know, they can't explain this. And so that's what I come back to what I do know. You know, and if people ask me what I

believe, I go, it's not relevant. What I know is what can be verified. And we are now at a situation which I find quite astonishing, where the most powerful country on the planet, on the planet, America has formally admitted the phenomenon is real. That's huge. That's a major step forward. But are they going to be more forthcoming? I somehow doubt it. Are you able to keep up with responding to people who email you compliments, like you perhaps get 100 a day or 200 even? I had 167 new emails this morning, and I was going through them before I logged in to talk to you. There's no way I can get on top of them at the speed that people want. I've had a few people angrily demanding to know why I haven't responded back to them yet. And they've sent me like 100 pages of data.

And I go, look, I'll get to it when I've got my time. I'm not funded by a major media organization to do this investigative research. I just do it. And even if you were funded, you only have a certain amount of time. The time is the main issue. Well, this is the big thing. I mean, this is the compromise that you often make in commercial and indeed in public broadcasting television with investigative journalism, because sooner or later, if you spent two or three weeks on a story, the boss comes up to you and he goes, hey, Roscoe, mate, time's getting on. When's the story coming up?

We've got a whole to fill. And so for me, the enormous freedom that I have at the moment, I've moved to the country. I've got the ability as a freelancer to take my time to do things. I'm a bit older than most. I'm 59, soon to turn 60. And I've had a lot of the fun in my journalistic career before now, but I've devoted a chunk of my time to investigating the phenomenon because one thing as a journalist that you develop

is a nose for a good story. Believe me, this is a good story. It's a great yarn. And I'm kind of hoping, frankly, that my friends in other media organizations don't jump on the bandwagon. Because once the CBS's, ABC's and NBC's of this world actually start deploying their investigative teams and spending serious coin on investigating the phenomenon, I'm going to be left for dust. You know, I mean, really, we are, I think, you know, as a media person, I can tell you, I think we're on the cusp of

an adjustment in the media, you've still got those outliers who go, Oh, it's all bullshit. You know, it's all rubbish, you know, ridicule, ridicule, stigma, stigma, taboo. And, you know, and I've had a few of them ring me because I'm part of a group called ICIJ, the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists based out of Washington, DC. And a lot of us talk to each other on the web and share ideas and stories. And a few of them have become aware that I've written a book on UFOs. And I was in a Spanish newspaper a few days ago, and one of my Spanish journalist friends rang me, and he went, oh, Ross, you're doing a book on UFOs.

And I went, yeah, yeah, it's already published. And he went, oh, really? And then he rang me back about two days later, and he'd read my book, and he'd watched my documentary. And I waited for him to ridicule me, because normally that's what happens. Normally somebody takes the piss and says, oh, mate, you've crazy you know you've got tinfoil hat on your head you know and the hilarious thing was he started talking to me about ufo sightings that he was aware of

as a very senior spanish journalist that he'd never reported about you know and he'd had sources from the government and the defense and intelligence services in his country talked to him about it and i said to him i said why why did you never publish the stories and he went look to be honest Ross it's you know there is so much taboo you know people do not go near the subject because it is people laugh at you and I went well not a lot of people are laughing at me I said the only people that are laughing at me are sort of desperate outliers who frankly I don't care too much outliers who, frankly, I don't care too much about. And I said, frankly, mate, I don't want to encourage you to go into the subject

matter because it's such a good story for me right now. You know, it's fertile past you. And he promised to go away and renew his contacts with his sources and go back and start looking at the subject matter. And I think that's going to happen. I think there's a cultural change happening here. And the media normally take about a year or two to catch up with what's really happening. And I think what we're going to see eventually is an adjustment. The media will start engaging with UAPs as a legitimate subject matter for investigation. Man, there's so much. I got to get to some audience questions, but I want to riff on that. Even for me, with this show, with this podcast, some of the most successful episodes, it's not necessarily public, let's say media. And then there's extreme acceptance in some of the UFO community. And perhaps because I'm neither, there's some interest. Okay, I can tell you there is a wisdom of the crowd.

Do you know that term? A wisdom of the crowd with the phenomenon. I am struck by the fact, I mean, I'm doing some renovations on my house at the moment, and a couple of workmen have come by in recent weeks, and I'm reasonably well known in this country, and they'd seen my documentary. And it's interesting, because they've all got UFO stories, and they all want to talk about it. And it's just one of those things that I think our society has, for no good reason, suppressed as a legitimate issue for serious discussion and investigation. And what I'm struck by, I mean, we're not allowed to go

to dinner parties at the moment in Australia because we're basically operating under authoritarian lockdown rule. It's outrageous. I just can't believe how meek, supposedly anti-authoritarian Australians are being because we've basically all been locked up in our homes for the last few months. But in the period before that, when I went to dinner parties or social events and told people I was working on a book about UFOs, people were really interested. And there's an instant click where people go, yes, yes, this is I really want to hear more about this. And, you know, my wife, God bless her, she got quite annoyed because we'd go to parties, and I would just be cornered by people. And all

they wanted to do was talk about UFOs. And it's interesting, because I went to a conference in Canberra, which is our capital city in Australia. And it was a conference that was attended by a number of defense and intelligence officials. And I was just in a corner talking to an admiral in our Navy. And this other bloke walked up. I won't say who he was, but he was from a certain agency. And he said, oh, oh, are you talking to Ross about UFOs? And I went, no, no, no, no, we're talking about the submarines. And it was very funny because then the guy I was talking to went,

oh, forget submarines. What are you talking about? UFOs, are you writing a book on UFOs? And then immediately, you know, this guy starts talking to me about, he was a submariner. And he was talking to me about how Australian submarines regularly encountered what he called USOs, underwater submerged objects. And so this whole conversation took off where I found myself in a corner at a conference with these uniformed officials who were all like little schoolboys gasp backing away to me about the phenomenon that they'd witnessed during their younger careers and how puzzled and mystified they were by it.

And I ventured to suggest, I remember one of them, I said, look, do you think the Americans know a lot more than they're letting on? And he just tipped his head back and went, oh, of course they do. Of course they do. And, you know, and as events subsequently showed, when I went to the United States and sat down with people in Washington and parts of California, that proved to be the case. All right. William E. has a question.

What's your take on Corso's book, The Day After Roswell? Look, I don't know. I mean, I think there's a lot about the Corso book that makes sense. I do think Roswell was a cover-up. I find it quite laughable. It's actually quite hilarious seeing the double black flip with pikes that the U.S. Air Force has committed in order to try and perpetrate the lie and continue the lie that it's been telling. I just honked with laughter because there's a great article, I quoted chunks of it in my book from Maureen Dowd in the New York Times, when back in 1995, I think it was, the US government put out its latest lame excuse for what Roswell was. And they claimed that, yes, humanoid objects, creatures were seen, but they were test dummies that were dropped from a balloon at 80,000 feet.

And then Maureen Dowd just laughed and went, oh, my God, if anything's convinced me more than ever that the United States government is hiding something about Roswell, it's this really lame explanation. I mean, I don't know what they're hiding about Roswell. I mean, I've spoken to people in the US government who told me that Roswell was a craft and that it was crashed and it was retrieved and that it was a crash between two craft. And they, both of them crashed and they were retrieved and taken to was a crash between two craft and they interesting both of both of them crashed and they were retrieved and taken to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base but you know do I believe that no not really not until I've got further evidence to substantiate it in my mind I mean and so when I read things like the Corso book I've looked into the history of Corso. I mean, he was quite amazing.

I mean, he was a really interesting figure because he was no lightweight. And when you look at his service history and the people that he was connected with, it's quite something that he came out and said what he said. It's quite something that he came out and said what he said, because he really effectively destroyed his relationships with people in the military and intelligence establishment by taking the stand that he took. And he wasn't mad. He wasn't nuts. And a lot of what he said has been independently verified and validated. So, yeah, I mean, I don't know whether it's all true. So yeah, I mean, I don't know whether it's all true. I mean, I certainly don't buy the explanation that all of the technology such as microchips and integrated circuits were created as a result of recoveries from alien spacecraft. I think that's nonsense. Corso extrapolated from things that Corso had told him and misrepresented what Corso was actually saying. Because I've read earlier versions of what Corso said, and he didn't say what is attributed

to him to the extent that it is written in that book. I mean, I think one of the most damaging criticisms of Corso is that he falsely claimed that all of the great breakthroughs in stealth technology and integrated circuits and even Velcro and things like that were as a result of what was found on an alien spacecraft. And when you actually go back and look, as I have done, at what he actually said, and then look at what was ended up being put in the book, they're two different things. I would have loved to have met him. I've spoken to people who knew him well,

and they've explained very much what I've just explained to you as well. And they think he should be taken seriously. And I am sure that he was in possession of material that came from the Foreign Technology Division and that he was farming some of it up to private aerospace and private technology. What I'm not sure about are some of the more wild claims that have been made on his behalf. And this is one of the things you have to watch out for, because I'm aware of instances where people make claims, and then all of a sudden they become associated with a claim that, frankly, is demonstrably untrue. There is active disinformation going on at the moment, even now, from forces in American intelligence who they're not trying to suppress so much as they used to. They're just trying to control. Because what's happening at the moment, I think, is a decision has been made inside

the US government that, yes, we're now at a stage where we have to admit that there is a real phenomenon. We have to admit that there is an anomalous phenomenon that is real. We can't deny it anymore, that too many sensal systems, too many phased array radar systems are now installed on different aircraft, too many high-quality video systems, too many data points are picking it up.

We can't deny it. But what we want to do, I think there's been an active decision made to constrain the current UAP task forces investigations from 2004. I don't think they want us to know anything about alleged crash recoveries or any of the other more extraordinary claims that have been made over the years by people like Corso. It's almost like what they're trying to do is present a scenario to the American and international public, where the American government can in a few years time go, guys, look what we've discovered. This is amazing. There really is a real phenomenon. And look, we're partway there

because they've acknowledged the phenomenon is real. But I suspect we'll be told that, you know, there is perhaps some intelligence that we don't yet comprehend that is operating on our planet. I do. I really do suspect that. And I've been led to that belief by people who know.

But I do believe that hopes that we're going to see disclosure of the truth behind crash recoveries, the truth behind alleged alien retrievals, the truth behind mutilations and my labs and abductions, I don't think we'll ever see that. And I think what's happening at the moment is there is a desperate, I do believe, by the way, that the United States has recovered what it believes is non-human technology. There, I've said it. I think the level of proof is sufficient in my mind to assert that there is non-human technology in the hands of the US government. But I don't think it wants anybody to know that. And I think what it's trying to do at the moment is control the narrative.

And I think there's a degree of nervousness about letting the UAP task force run. people in Tom DeLonge's To The Stars Academy were getting close to highly classified, secure special access programs that are kept completely off the books inside the US government that aren't part of the normal disclosure process before Congress, even before the Gang of Eight, you know, waived unacknowledged special access programs. It's way beyond that. And I do believe that the US is sitting on technology that it's trying to suppress its knowledge of its existence. And I don't know how they're going to get away with that. And it worries me because it raises accountability issues. You know, why hasn't the Congress been informed?

Why have presidents been kept in the dark? What have presidents been told? You know, for example, it's quite obvious to me if you look between the lines of what both obama trump clinton jimmy carter have all said it's quite obvious that presidents have been briefed in to some degree but what have they been told? You know, is there a group of generals and intelligence people inside the Pentagon and the CIA who are trying to control the narrative? I suspect there is. And I think there's a battle going on inside different intelligence agencies in the US to try and one group is more open and transparent

and thinking that their duty bound under the Constitution to be more open and obliging to reveal what they know because there's no good reason not to reveal it. But there's another group that probably also because of religious ardent zealotry are reluctant to see the full story told. I think for a lot of people who are of extreme religious faith, and that's not to be in any way critical of people who are believers. I think a lot of people because I do think, you know, I think the Vatican, for example,

has made it quite clear that if you are religious, and if you believe in ETs, we are they are all God's children. You know, I don't think the idea of alien life is incompatible. And people should take a closer look at what religious institutions like the Vatican have actually said about this. But I'm told, and I've been told this by multiple sources, that there are people of extreme conservative religious viewpoints inside the CIA, and also inside the Defense Intelligence Agency and other agencies who are hostile to revealing the extent of what the US government knows. And I do know- Because they believe it's connected to what's demonic?

They think it's demonic. They think it's satanic. And who knows? I mean, I'm not religious, but it might be. Maybe we're all going down a very dangerous path right okay so this question comes from harry white he wants to know if you've seen any orbs or any ufo phenomenon or and or what is his opinion with the summoners summoners i don't know what he means oh you mean ce5 that sort of thing i'll assume that know what he means. Oh, you mean CE5, that sort of thing. I'll assume that's what he means. Okay. I haven't had any direct experiences myself with the phenomenon. I wish I had.

I'd love it if... Make your job easier. Ah, wouldn't it be fantastic? I have been. There's a guy called Damien Nott, N-O-T-T, here in Australia, who's quite astonishing with his ability to know when the phenomenon is about to manifest itself. And I remember I was sitting with him on a sofa in his house in Pennant Hills in north-western Sydney, and he just suddenly went, oh, excuse me, grabbed a camera,

went outside, pointed it up in the air, and got vision of an object moving erratically across the sky. And I said, how did you know that that was going to be there? And he went, I don't know. I just don't know. But I commend his work. He did an excellent film called Australien Skies, alien as in A-L-I-E-N.

But he's just got the most extraordinary collection of objects that he's seen. And he does seem to be able to mentally engage with the phenomenon. I mean, and when I've got, as I have done, I've got people in defence and intelligence in the US telling me that whatever this phenomenon is, it engages in a mental way, in almost a telepathic way with human beings.

I mean, debunkers can scoff as much as they like. I mean, when people are telling me this, I can't dismiss it. And more importantly, I've seen people who purport to be able to do what I think Stephen Greer calls CE5. And, you know, I can't dismiss it. Speaking on the topic of consciousness and UFOs, there aren't many places with quality documentaries on the subject. If you're endeavoring to learn more about those topics, CuriosityStream acts as an ancilla to that quest, furnishing a variety of documentaries on consciousness and UFOs.

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The link is below, and do let me know what you think of Stephen Hawking's favorite places. Okay, this question comes from PoopDig. What does he think of Admiral Wilson? I mean, why does he think Admiral Wilson docs are legit? And I believe you've explained this in your In Plain Sight, but if you can give it to people who haven't read that book. Actually, if he reads my book, he would see that I concede at the end of my analysis of the Admiral Wilson documents that we cannot reach any conclusion about them until and if either Tom Wilson or Eric Davis concedes that the documents are a real account of a real conversation. I do believe that there is a strong body of evidence to suggest that the

provenance of the documents is very, very solid. And I write about a guy to whom I give the pseudonym in my book, the spaceman. And he was a very, very close friend of Edgar Mitchell. And it turned out when he got to know me, he confided that he was the custodian of Edgar Mitchell's private UFO archives. And he allowed me access to those archives. And in those archives is the original of the Admiral Wilson document that was leaked out onto the web in about 2018 and that was done by a good friend of mine here in Australia, James Rigney, who passed it on to Grant Cameron and Richard Dolan. Dolan. So I'm very sure of the provenance of the Admiral Wilson document. It came from Edgar Mitchell's estate. And I'm also very sure that it was written by Dr. Eric Davis, a man for whom I have an enormous amount of respect. And I'm pretty sure that the document was faxed by Dr. Howell put off to Edgar Mitchell because Edgar Mitchell was on the science advisory board for the National Institute of Discovery Science, which was the private science investigative body that was investigating the paranormal for Bob Bigelow, the aerospace and real estate entrepreneur.

the aerospace and real estate entrepreneur. And I've also done an analysis of the comments made by all of the people who are parties, if you like, to the provenance of the document. And none of them, you would think, let me put it this way. If you were Eric Davis, way. If you were Eric Davis, and people were circulating a document that purports to be Eric Davis's notes of his alleged conversation with Admiral Tom Wilson, the immediate past director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, in a car park, ironically, the car park of EG&G, you couldn't get more spooky than that, you know, the EG&G company in Las Vegas. And they're discussing a covert aerospace company's concealment on behalf of certain elements of the US government and intelligence establishment of retrieved alien technology, and how it's been kept secret from the US public for so many years, you would expect that such a wild, wacky conspiracy theory would be immediately denied by a man with a security oath to protect, and, you know, a need to be seen to be a loyal patriot of America.

You wouldn't want false rumors to be being disseminated on your name. But what has Eric Davis done? If anything, in an interview with Stephen Greenstreet on The Basement, which for some perverse reason Greenstreet took down, Eric Davis made a number of admissions that I thought were quite pertinent to this, and I write about them in the book. Tom Wilson, of course, Admiral Tom Wilson, in a letter to me has adamantly denied that any such conversation took place. But on analysis at the end of all of it, whilst I say I cannot rule out the possibility that the document is real and that it records a valid conversation and possibly real events. Because I can't get anybody on the record to prove the

document, to establish that it is a genuine record of essentially a truthful conversation, and that that truthful conversation records actual facts, actual reality, not disinformation. I'm not prepared to assert that the Admiral Tom Wilson memo is for real. So contrary to what your interrogator poses, I'm not saying that I have validated it to my satisfaction that it records real events. What I have said is that there are aspects of the responses from the different parties that don't make sense if that document is a fake. Because don't you think, I mean, this is a guy, Eric Davis works for Aerospace Corporation, and he's working on apparently propulsion technologies, next generation propulsion technologies. There is no doubt in my mind,

he has to have a top secret SCI compartmentalised security clearance in order to do that. So he has to be positive vetted to make sure that he's a decent man who's allowed to be given America's most sensitive secrets. Don't you think that if he was aware that a memo was fake, he'd say so. And he's never done that. And that, to me, is the most conspicuous part

of the entire Admiral Wilson document saga. I know it's complex, but it really is worth people getting their heads around, and that's why I went to a lot of trouble to write about it in my book. I wanted people to understand the history of the document and how it was that Admiral Wilson allegedly came to make those inquiries. Because all credit to Dr. Stephen Greer, interestingly, who's long mocked and ridiculed by a lot of people in UFO research. It was he who initiated with Edgar Mitchell a meeting with Admiral Tom Wilson in 1997 that kicked the ball off. And Tom admitted to me that meeting took place. And there are five

people, Stephen Greer, Edgar Mitchell, Shari Adamiak, Commander Willard Miller, and I think one other, who were all present and who heard allegedly Tom Wilson making admissions about his inability to get to the bottom of the truth of the matter about UAPs. So you have to take into context the assertions of all of these people as direct witnesses with what is being said by a past director of the Defence Intelligence Agency, who makes it very, very clear in the memo in question that if it ever becomes public, he would have to lie about it. And nobody is to say anything, frankly, in my view, that should detract from the fact that Admiral Tom Wilson

is an honorable, decent, loyal patriot. If I was in his position, that's exactly what I would do. He's bound by a security oath. And frankly, it may very well be that there is some solid national security reason that you and I don't yet know that explains why we're not allowed to know this stuff. That's one thing I've been really struggling with. And I just want to make this point. And frankly, if there's anybody out there from any of those three letter agencies that's watching this, I'm wide open to this, because this has happened to me before. I once became aware of a military deployment by Australian forces overseas, and I was given a heads up that it was happening. And I queried the Defense

Department about it. And I was asked not to run it. And I didn't run it because there was no good reason for me to jeopardise the safety of Australian troops being deployed overseas, just for a story. And in this case, I've asked people, I've said to people, is there a legitimate reason why we're not allowed to know about what it is that the United States government knows, the extent of what it knows about the phenomenon? And nobody that I've spoken to has been able to give me a good answer. Nobody's been able to give me any solid national security reason. In fact, they've suggested that it's just been kept secret for no good reason. It's just a relic of the Cold War. And now there is a small cluster of generals,

admirals, and spooks and politicians who are a bit embarrassed that if it all does become public, they're going to have to admit that they've lied for years to the American public, presidents have been deceived, and there's probably been criminal contempts of Congress. And this is why there should be hearings in Congress. But I can understand why it might be necessary for some of those hearings to be held in camera. Because the people that America trusts with its secrets, the Congress, the oversight bodies like the Senate Intelligence Committee or the Armed Services Committee, they should at least have an opportunity to say to these people under oath, okay, we now know that there is a X issue that you've never revealed to us before about the United States knowing about UAPs, UFOs. Why haven't you told us about this before? What's that reason? And under oath in confidential hearing, they should be given an opportunity to explain that. And then frankly, if they can't explain it,

then the public should be told. But oddly, I as a journalist see I have a responsibility because I often get told things that I shouldn't. I have a responsibility to ensure that I'm not jeopardizing public safety or national security by inadvertently revealing something I shouldn't. So I've been giving people that opportunity along the way. I've been waiting for somebody to tell me, hey, listen, there's a really good reason for this. And look, I've had a number of explanations that I'm not quite sure about yet, but none of which I'm ready to talk about publicly, but I'm not satisfied that there is a good reason and I want to hear it. So if there is one, tell me. Can't they just say

national security? And that's the reason why we didn't tell anyone. Are you going to, are you going to accept that kind of bullshit excuse? I'm not. I mean, I've been told so many times that something's a subject of national security. And I mean, I remember, look at the warrantless wiretapping that was going on under the US legislation, where the National Security Agency and other government departments were essentially illegally allowed to warrantlessly wiretap hundreds of millions of innocent Americans in what was essentially an overreaction to 9-11. And it was a fundamental breach of the constitutional rights of freedoms of, you know, being allowed to have a private conversation, you know, privacy is a right. And, you know, we can't just glibly accept assertions of national security.

Claims like that need to be tested. Tyranny starts when governments use secrets to conceal mistakes. And that's my worry here. My worry here is that the explanation for what has happened with the UFO phenomenon is purely and simply that years ago, the UFO phenomenon is purely and simply that years ago some pompous general decided that it was better to keep it confidential because you know we know better than the rest of you and you know we want to try and replicate this technology that's assuming that we've recovered technology and frankly even though there's no good reason now for not revealing it, they've dug themselves so deep into a lie for so long, they don't know how to get out of it. They're worried about being

excoriated and vilified in the court of public opinion. But they should be, frankly, if they've lied, if they've misled Congress. I mean, one of the things that, frankly, I just don't get, and this is something I really don't get, and this is something I really don't understand is if you read Jacques Vallée's Forbidden Knowledge, Volume 4, it has the most extraordinary series of exchanges between Jacques Vallée, who's one of the godfathers of UFO research, and a guy called Richard Dick D'Amato, who was the staffer on the Senate Intelligence Committee, in a role very similar to the role that was played by Chris Mellon years later. And Dick D'Amato back in the 1970s was talking to

Jacques Vallée openly in private conversation about how he was trying to get to the bottom of the government cover up about UFOs. And look, I've approached Dick D'Amato and he doesn't want to talk. And, you know, he's probably bound by a security oath. But he was making no secret to Jacques Vallée, who mischievously put this in his diaries back in the 1970s, that he knew that as the person responsible, as the staffer responsible for probably the most important intelligence oversight body in the Congress, he couldn't get access to information that he knew existed. And this is what worries me. What worries me is that this may be a crisis of accountability. If the Wilson memo, for example, is a truthful and accurate document, what it means is essentially technology that is rightfully the possession and the property of the American people, if not the human race, is being divested into the private ownership of a private aerospace company and oversighted only by a very few people in government who are terrified of the secret getting out.

And their efforts to back engineer this technology, allegedly because of the incredible secrecy attached to the whole program, have been hindered because of the inability as scientists to be able to share data and discuss what they're looking at with other scientists. Imagine if, hypothetically, the United States is in possession of retrieved technology. Imagine, hypothetically, if the United States is sitting on an alien spacecraft or multiple spacecraft. or multiple spacecraft. Imagine if that was the case. Imagine if they failed in 76 years to back engineer, I beg your pardon, to back engineer that technology. Don't you think there comes a time when they have to truthfully engage with the American public and say, we've lied to you. We're very sorry.

And this is why I've actually floated in previous interviews, the idea of a Truth and Reconciliation Commission. As a journalist, I covered the South African Truth and Reconciliation Commission, where in quite a beautiful way, the evils of the apartheid regime under the racist government of South Africa, before it became independent under Nelson Mandela, they were always covered up. And then they had a truth and reconciliation regime where killers, like the killers in the South African Security Service, who literally murdered people for the state were allowed to truthfully sit in public hearing and tell their story, knowing that they were being given full immunity and full indemnity. And frankly, I think that's what we should offer to the people who are hiding the secret because it's far too important to have a purge to go

jumping on people and criticizing them for not revealing it. I suspect that their motivations for hiding it in the very beginning were quite honourable. We were in the Cold War and we found a life form, to quote the General. I mean, I'm referring there to something that Tom DeLonge gave in an interview when he says he was told by a person he referred to as the General.

It was the Cold War. And every day, we lived in fear that, you know, the world was about to fall apart. And then we found a life form. You know, there was a different context during the Cold War that I think informed America's national security imperatives, I would have kept the secret. But if it is the case, if it is the case that the United States has recovered alien technology, and I don't know for sure that they have, but I suspect they have, then unless there's a good reason for continuing to conceal it, and I'd like to hear that, I think we need to provide a means for them to be exculpated and to be honorably recognized for bringing it out into

the American public's knowledge. Because let me just be a whimsical person for a moment and discuss what I love about America. As a little boy, I remember looking up at the moon and thinking how incredible it was that a country on my planet had put men on the moon. You know, it was just unimaginable to me as a little boy. And I had all my Apollo moon mission models. And I was fascinated with the idea that, you know, a nation had collaborated scientifically in such a short period of time to do incredible things. You know, what a monumental achievement. And that was an illustration to me of what humanity can achieve. And I'm really struck, I was only reading yesterday

about how shortly before his death, John F. Kennedy in November 1963 instructed his CIA director to begin sharing intelligence with the Russians and to look at a collaborative space research program with the Russians. And there was such promise there internationally about pulling ourselves out of the Cold War with adventurism, exploration, science, research, new ideas. And if it is the case, if it is the case that the United States

is sitting on technology, and I suspect it is, imagine what that technology could do for humanity. And imagine how we're being held back because of the fear, the cowardly fear of a few men in dark rooms who are hiding these secrets. Wouldn't it be a wonderful thing if we could usher in a new age of propulsion systems, energy, advances in technology that the world has never seen, pull human beings out of poverty. You know, be fantastic. Exploration, understand our solar system, understand our universe. These things could be achieved if there really is faster than light travel or some kind of anti-gravitic technology or propulsion system and the interesting thing is someone something out there is flying craft that appear to have

these technologies and the world just goes on you You know, the Pentagon makes these admissions. It actually admits that it cannot prosaically explain this phenomenon, which is doing maneuvers and speeds far beyond our technology, instantaneous velocity, hypersonic maneuvers, and we just get on with our lives and politely ignore it like it's not happening, or worse still, we give currency to some stupid debunker who comes up with some lame excuse that frankly doesn't make sense. It's time for people to wake up to themselves and realize that the United States, I know for sure, is sitting on

secrets that it is not yet revealing. And I don't know why it's not doing that. But I have, in the course of my research, become privy to knowledge that makes me realise that they are concealing stuff. Now, if they're concealing technology, I think the public has a right to know about it unless there's some solid national security reason that can be provided that explains why. So my only point is we need to provide a means, a system to facilitate them feeling okay about doing that. We need to provide people with essentially an indemnity against

prosecution if they speak outside the constraints of their security oath, if they reveal crimes, if crimes have been committed. There has to be a full and open accounting. And frankly, you're not going to get that in the Congress at the moment. It's not going to happen. I don't care what some of the more optimistic predictors say. I don't think there is a mood in the Congress for any further disclosure. I think the UAP task force will be created into a permanent office in all likelihood, but it will be woefully underfunded. And like Project Blue Book,

it'll eventually be dribbled out of existence. And frankly, the only way any impetus is going to be developed on this is if the public wakes up and realizes the awesome significance of what the Pentagon has already admitted. Okay, this question comes from Quantum Cryogenics. Do you agree with Eric Davis that UFO experiences always, always come with poltergeist effects?

I don't know. I don't know enough about it. I genuinely don't know enough about UFO experiences. I have huge respect for Dr. Eric Davis, but I haven't witnessed what he's witnessed. I'm in no position to comment. All right, then this one comes from Dan Zetterstrom of the UFO podcast, which I saw you on. I listened to those two parts. He says, slide nine, and I'll also link that podcast in the description. Slide nine specifies instantaneous sensor disassembly. We've also seen human and cattle referred to as biosensors when it comes to the phenomenon. The prospect for disassembly of these things is startling. Does that lead to cognitive manipulation? I think it does. What does he mean by cognitive manipulation?

So explain this question to me and then give the answer. Okay. Slide nine, just to give you some context. Slide nine was part of a group of slides from a PowerPoint display that was certainly prepared and maybe used in a briefing for the Under Secretary of the Department of Defense from people in the office of the Under Secretary of Defense Intelligence, probably parts of the UAP Task Force or AATIP, the Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program, and probably when Lou Elizondo was in charge there. I don't know for sure. I haven't asked

Lou directly about it. I should have done. But essentially, slide nine is the ninth slide in those PowerPoints that we used for a briefing. And frankly, if these were used in a briefing, they are absolutely astonishing, because the provenance of the document is really not in doubt, I've more than satisfied myself as to the provenance of the document is really not in doubt, I've more than satisfied myself as to the provenance of the document. And slide nine shows that the Undersecretary for the Department of Defense was being advised that the phenomenon is capable of psychotronic weaponry. And when you look up psychotronic, which I did, I immediately googled it, it's essentially describing what the slide goes on to describe, which is the capacity to manipulate human perception and consciousness. And as Dan has rightly pointed out, it also involves

the capacity to remotely manipulate an instantaneous sense or disassembly. And what that's a reference to is the meddling that has been going on and is still going on with nuclear weapons. I mean, I've, I'm very cautious to talk about the stuff that I know that's current, because some of it is still quite national security sensitive, but there is a genuine concern inside the US. And also, interestingly, I noted in France, India, and Russia, those are the countries that I've spoken to, somebody is screwing with their nuclear weapons. They're having instances where weapons are going down and they just won't function

and they can't find anything wrong with things. Systems that are supposedly secure. It's almost as if whatever it is, is demonstrating to them how insecure their systems are. Because if you think about it, if something, and this is irrefutable, something is demonstrating a capacity to meddle with the most dangerous weapons on the planet. And people don't realize that the bulletin of atomic scientists that has this clock showing

the hands towards midnight, that hand is closer to midnight than at many other times in our history right now you know we may think that the threat of nuclear war has diminished but there is from all of the people that i'm talking to at the moment an ever-present fear that we are on the brink of a confrontation with china let's say it for what it is. People are talking about war with China. It's scary. And I'm really worried about it. I'm preoccupied with it, frankly. Australia has just recently bought or agreed to buy nuclear submarines from the Brits and the Americans in an amazing new defence relationship called AUKUS because we're so paranoid about China. And it's like we're sleepwalking into a war. And so in that context, when you think about how close that clock is to midnight,

you also need to be aware that something is continuing to meddle with our nuclear weapons. And these sightings are ongoing. These meddlings are ongoing. weapons. And these sightings are ongoing. These meddlings are ongoing. There are remote meddlings or if you like, one person I spoke to said they were like demonstrations. Something is demonstrating a capacity to shut down nuclear weapons, or as has reportedly happened in one case in the United States, the USSR, a capacity to wind up nuclear weapons to turn them on. Is there only one case ever in the whole world that you know about? That's the one case I know about directly, where I've spoken to Russians who purport to

have a direct knowledge of it. Yes. But I wouldn't be surprised at all if there were others. Okay. Administrative Fudge8 asks, does he have information on Haim Ashed, former head of Israeli defense ministry? I'm certain he briefly mentioned it when talking in Project Unity in an interview, but I might be wrong. That's what he said. Yeah. When I was writing my book, a lot of people would remember there was this guy who was a former head of the Israeli space program. I didn't even know the Israelis had a space program, but he was a former head of the Israeli space program. And he talked openly about his knowledge of the Americans concealing evidence of alien visitations to this planet. I know is I had friends of mine who are Hebrew speakers in Israel reach out to him on multiple occasions to see if he was prepared to speak to me and he didn't want to engage. So whatever it was that he said and whatever the reasons for his unwillingness to engage as often happens,

he shut up pretty quickly. he shut up pretty quickly. Steve Cambion asks, what have you uncovered about the US government's injection of agents and infiltration into the UFO community for years? And what do you think their purpose is for doing so? I'm sure that the government and intelligence services monitors UFO groups. And look, frankly, I can see some logic in that.

The way it was explained to me, when you think about it during the Cold War in particular, if you were Russia and you wanted to have an intelligence network that gave you insights into what's going on around some of the most sensitive bases in America, you would be infiltrating the UFO groups that sit off the end of Area 51 or the Nevada test range, or the, you know, different test sites in the sensitive parts of Nevada and New Mexico.

It's a great way of finding out what's going on. And the evidence is irrefutable that the Russians have done that. And we've had similar things here in Australia. I mean, I've been briefed by our intelligence services about Russians in caravans on holiday near Pine Gap in Australia, or Chinese people installing weird equipment in the desert somewhere near Pine Gap. And the thing that frustrates people about Pine Gap is all the standard techniques for intercepting data 30 or 40 years ago involved placing either a satellite or a receiver into the signal from whence it was coming from the satellite. And so, you know, quite often we'd stick from submarines,

we'd stick receivers into the line of sight of microwave receivers for mobile phone telephony in Korea or Russia or China, and that work's still largely classified, so I won't go into a lot about it. But one of the things that, one of the reasons why Pine Gap was created where it is, slap bang in the middle of Australia, is literally there are thousands of kilometers of outback desert in every direction. And so it's very hard for a communist country or a country that wants to spy on Australia to come and

country that wants to spy on Australia to come and stick a caravan or a transmitter or a receiver under the down point of the satellites to the receiving dishes in Pine Gap without being caught. And there's an incredibly intensive investigation effort by intelligence services and defense security to make sure that people don't do that. And so yeah, I mean, I hope that answers your question. Anyway, I've lost track of my answer. Sure, sure, sure. And just so you know, that question came from Steve Camby and he runs Truthseekers. I'll link that in the description. Okay, this next question is from NotSkrotus. I would love him to speculate on how much he thinks Luis Alessandro knows and what he thinks Luis Elizondo may say, if not for the NDA and the classifications issues, classified issues. In other words, how deep does Ross think the rabbit hole goes?

So the Luis Elizondo, how much do you think he knows? I know that Luis Elizondo knows a great deal. I know that Lou Elizondo knows a great deal and that is because as part of my background research into Elizondo before I approached him, I spoke to people in our special forces who knew him from his counterintelligence work in Kandahar with the Americans during the battle of Tirunkat shortly after the allies invaded Afghanistan and tried to interdict al-Qaeda. Lua Lissondo has been at the spear point of efforts to bring to heel the people responsible for 9-11 for much of the last 20 years. I mean, he's a Cold War warrior.

And what blew me away when I finally checked out his bona fides was the levels at which he'd operated when he was based in the office of the Undersecretary of Defence Intelligence. to AATIP, I understand, and I didn't get this from Lou, but I understand that he was a liaison for defence intelligence with the Special Access Program Oversight Committee and members of the Senior Review Group, which essentially, if you understand anything about how compartmentalized intelligence in America works, the whole country, military and intelligence services run on a need to know basis. And only a very small number of people need to know the most sensitive secrets. But let me tell you, somebody who's operating at the level of the senior review group and the special access program oversight committee knows a lot of the very, very protected

secrets. And that's about as far as I'm prepared to go. Did you see the interview that I had with Luke where he mentioned somber, this word somber? Okay. What do you think he, not meant by the word, but meant by the implications that the world would be somber. I wish I could tell you what I'm being told right now, but I don't think it's responsible for me to talk about it until I've been able to verify it more because I don't want to panic people or be irresponsible. I'm already copying a swipe from different people. Actually, Eric Davis had a go at me the other day because I apparently talked about people who told me that the United States may be actively engaged in attempting to bring down objects by using the frequencies

that they know these objects can be tracked at. And he said I was clueless on that point. And I don't want to get into a ding dong with Eric Davis, because I actually liked the guy and respect him enormously. But all I was doing was reporting what I've been told. And I've been told in another area, certain things about the phenomenon that are quite disturbing. I mean, there are a lot of people privately claiming to me, things about the implications of the phenomenon that go beyond, far beyond the whole notion of just

I mean I wish it was as simple as extraterrestrials getting in their little spaceships and flying from Zeta Reticuli and coming to this planet that's the easy explanation the explanation that I've been exploring in recent months is more complex, and I've already spoken about this to some extent. So I will say it involves the notion of future human time, time travel. And look, it's only hypothetical. I'm not saying it's real.

But if what I'm being told about that is true, then yeah, I would be somber too. Why is that somber? Why is the fact or the potential that it might be humans in the future terrifying? Because of what it... Well, I think I wouldn't be giving too much away if I said

that you think about it. Why since 1947, has there been a phenomenon taking an interest in the human race, particularly in nuclear weapons? Why is something or someone apparently trying to send us a message about nuclear weapons? Why is it that nuclear weapons are being shut down by what slide nine refers to as remote sensor disassembly? What's it trying to say? What's coming? Imagine if, and I'm only speaking hypothetically here, imagine if future humans knew that if we continue on the path we're going, there's going to be a nuclear war or a conflagration at some time. Wouldn't you want to head that off?

Wouldn't you want to protect your kin? And imagine if you were somebody in the u.s defense and intelligence establishment that was aware of that quite insane sounding idea that this might be a time thing a future war thing and imagine if you're worried that anything you do might jeopardize that time stream. Ah, I see. That's interesting. That's where I'm working at the moment. And I don't know if I'll ever get an answer.

And I hasten to add, before anybody goes off and says, Coulthard says blah, I'm not saying this for sure. I'm just exploring this as a hypothetical possibility. You're surmising. I'm surmising. And that's what we should do. You know, we should explore this. But a number of people have put to me and, you know, they've suggested to me that this might be future human. And there's a great, actually, there's a lovely fellow, Michael Masters. It's not because of his book that I'm doing this, but I commend to people, Michael's explored this possibility

in his wonderful book, Dr. Michael Masters. But the people that I'm talking to are people inside the, they're people who know. See, when you say that it might be future, okay, possibly, supposing, that it might be people from the future coming back because perhaps we annihilate

ourselves at some point maybe there's a remnant left and they don't want that to happen to them this is me surmising based on what you've said what occurs to me is well why don't why not be more direct about it now you may say oh yeah one may say okay the shutting down of nukes is direct but absolutely i mean you make my you make my day by saying that, because I've had a conversation with somebody recently where I've said, well, okay, hypothetically, assuming that it is that, how do you know that being open and transparent isn't the very thing that would fix the time stream? How do you know that that wouldn't be the very thing that makes humanity go, oh my God, it's real. We're going to screw up this planet if we don't fix it.

go, oh, my God, it's real. We're going to screw up this planet if we don't fix it. I don't know, my friend, I just don't know. But I mean, all I'm doing is exploring that as a surmised hypothetical possibility. Because the other thing that is possible here is just flat disinformation. You know, as I said, at the very beginning of this conversation, intelligence services lie all the time. And one of the things as a journalist you have to do is try and figure out what are the little nuggets in the middle of all of that, that are possibly truthful. Then how would that make sense with the, that's why I asked you earlier about the one case where they turned it on, what would be the point of that? I mean, hypothetically, perhaps it was to scare the willies out of the Kremlin as much as it

scared the willies out of the Pentagon to make them realize that thinking of using nuclear weapons in an offensive capacity is utterly irresponsible and wrong. And that humanity needs to wake up to itself and realize that we can't continue on this course. I mean, the Cold War ended in 1989. I can remember as a young man, I watched a film called The Day After, which was a representation in a film of what it would look like for a nuclear war. And I genuinely, I did not expect as a teenage kid to survive the Cold War. I really didn't expect to get into adulthood. People have forgotten how bleak things were. You know, when Ronald Reagan, for example, was talking about the evil empire, there was talk about the strategic defense initiative, Star Wars. Star Wars, you know, the Russians were basically demonized, the whole Soviet bloc was demonized, we didn't think of them as human, we were basically taught to think of them as evil,

authoritarian communists, which there was evil, there was authoritarian, and there was nastiness, but they were human beings as well. And I mean, ultimately, maybe, maybe at the heart of all of this, there is an intelligence that's trying to make us think of what we are. We're human. And maybe it's in despair because we're not listening. India and Pakistan, and how there is genuine concern inside the Indian military, that the objects that they're seeing on an increasing basis there, the anomalous, mysterious objects that they're seeing over their nuclear weapons, might cause some kind of preemptive strike by one against the other. And, you know, I know that this is a concern inside America. I mean, we've, we've come very close in the past to almost launching nuclear weapons because of anomalous objects seen on radar systems. You know, it is ridiculous that in this

day and age, we still live. I mean, there's a great book. The hero of the Pentagon Papers, Daniel Ellsberg, wrote a fantastic book about the work that he did before he became the renowned whistleblower for the Pentagon Papers that led to the revelations about the dirty secrets of the Vietnam War. the dirty secrets of the Vietnam War. He was also retained by McNamara, the Defence Secretary, to review the safety and the security of America's nuclear weapons, strategic nuclear weapons. And what he found was horrifying. And I recommend, I commend his book to anyone, because I think it's one of the most important books I've read in years, because it actually showed that contrary to what the public had been being told, generals, military commanders had delegated the decision making on the launch of nuclear weapons to individual commanders in some locations. the accountability controls were set up for the launch of nuclear weapons, it might not be possible to get a response to strike off if the Soviets attacked. And so they delegated authority to individual commanders to do a discretionary launch.

And Daniel's talked about this in his book. And it's just one of those issues where maybe it's just too complex for people to talk about in mainstream media, or maybe people dismiss Daniel Ellsberg as a nutty kook. But he's not. You know, this is a highly intelligent man who, to this day, is as worried about the security of the nuclear weapons repositories in the United States, in the Soviet Union, China, Russia, Britain, France, India, Pakistan, Israel. He's as worried about all of these nuclear weapons now as he was back then, if not more. And we all should be. And hypothetically, what if the phenomenon that we're now seeing in our skies is trying to send us a message? When it goes on the radar as these anomalous craft and it almost starts a nuclear war, does that not contradict the hypothesis that they're here to save us?

Should they not know about that? Well, the war didn't happen, did it? Maybe they were sending a message. I mean, we don't know. I've got no message. I mean, we don't know. I've got no idea. I mean, there's an amazing, I've got the documents in my files somewhere, but I didn't put it in the book and maybe I should have done. But there's an amazing bit of work

that's been done by a researcher in Los Angeles called Brad Sparks about objects that have actually crossed, they've flown directly towards presidential residences or Camp David or Washington DC and there's been clear responses. It's almost like whatever it's doing it's saying, It's saying, hey, you guys, for all of your weapons deterrent systems, we can go and do whatever we want, wherever we want. And maybe the point of manifesting this capacity to the most powerful country on the planet is to remind them that they're still just human and that mistakes can still be made and to make them think twice about the control

and oversight procedures that they have on the deployment of some of the more sensitive weaponry. I mean, one of the things I didn't realize until I spoke to Bob Salas, I always assumed that somebody like Bob Salas, the guy who was in the ICBM minute band silo in the 1960s, I assumed that he could only launch his weapons once a code was put into his system. And then with that authorization, he and his colleague could turn the key and it would actually work. What he explained to me was that at that period in the 1960s, yes, they required

an authorization before they were allowed to turn their key, but they could still turn their key. Which, which to me seems insane, that you could have two guys in a silo in the middle of the Midwest in the USA, who, if they decided to go crazy for a moment, could just simultaneously turn their keys and cause a nuclear war. I mean, the control and oversight of nuclear weapons really is a very serious concern. And especially now that we've got hydrogen bombs, the likes of which the world has never seen used in anger, and God forbid that we ever did. I mean, there's a great, I was playing with this

with one of my daughters the other night. This is what we do at home. There's a great website you can go to where you can actually measure the impact of certain shapes of thermonuclear bombs on different cities. And so the other night, we were dropping bombs on Canberra and Sydney and just seeing what would happen with the radiation over where we live. And so we decided we'd be a lot better off if a nuclear bomb was dropped on Sydney, because all the radioactive waste would go north from where we are. But if Canberra gets a bomb dropped on it, which it probably waste would go north from where we are. But if

Canberra gets a bomb dropped on it, which it probably will, we're completely screwed. And I'm being flippant here. But you know, the incredible thing to me is that, as a society, humanity lives with the ever present reality that there are people sitting in silos right now, with their hands on the key, ready to accept the authorization codes to launch their nuclear weapons. And when I was with Lou Elizondo in Wyoming, we spent a couple of days, a few days in Wyoming with him.

And he lives in a beautiful part of the cowboy country there. And he lives not too far away from the huge mountain that featured in Close Encounters of the Third Kind. And so I said to him, look, I really apologize for asking you this. But have you got two hours where we can take you to that mountain and get some pictures of you with that iconic mountain behind you? And he very kindly agreed. And as we were driving the few hours along the highway there and back, he started pointing out to me tracks leading off the road. And he said, What do you think they are? And I said, I don't know. And all I could see was just an aerial and what looked like a gas canister or something. And I said, I don't know, fuel, fuel bars or something.

a gas canister or something and I said, I don't know, fuel fuel buses or something. And he went, they're ICBM launch silos. And as we were driving through Wyoming, my whole understanding of this beautiful landscape changed. And I was just thinking of that scene from Terminator where New York just explodes, you know, all the bombs start going off. where New York just explodes, you know, all the bombs start going off. Because we're in this beautiful, absolutely stunning cowboy country, there's mountains with snow. And, you know, there's literally guys with leather chaps walking through bars, you know, it's just the most gorgeous part of the world. And then the reality that I couldn't help but notice as we were driving along, every few miles, there would be another one of these little tracks and they're all built the same way because the same contractor builds them the same way. And it's just amazing to me that in this day and age, there would have been dozens of these tracks

leading up to what, you know, there's two men sitting inside a room, rage turn the key on the president's orders and just trying to think of what that landscape would look like with ICBMs coming out of the silos all over that landscape. It's so incongruous. It's such an incredible thing. I think people don't like thinking about it, but the reality is that friends of mine

that know these things that work in national security, they say we're closer to nuclear war now than ever before. And the international environment now is so unstable. There are so many risks that there might be an inadvertent nuclear attack of some kind. And we need to try and avert that. And maybe just maybe there is some intelligence that's trying to let us know about that. Have you heard of the proposition that the aliens are concerned with us starting a war rather than stopping a war? That they feed off of suffering? Oh, God. Now you're getting really depressing.

Please give me hope. I like to think of benevolent intelligence. I like to think of benevolent intelligence. I like to think that something that's vastly technologically superior to us and probably more intelligent than us has developed a moral values system that understands the importance of utilitarian ideas and moral decency and ethical values. Tom DeLonge's interviews where he was talking about what he'd been told by the general and other people inside intelligence services before he went public with TTSA in 2016, 2017. And, you know, I actually think it's really interesting because he talked about warring gods and jealous gods and I thought it was crazy and then the DNC leak happened and it turned out that he really was talking I mean it's beyond doubt people don't realize this and again it's just an amazing oversight by mainstream

media that they haven't picked up on this, the leaked WikiLeaks emails leaked by the Russian GRU, believe it or not, who hacked the Democratic National Committee, who tried to gain intelligence that might help Trump win against Hillary Clinton. The DNC emails show irrefutably that Tom DeLonge was telling the truth when he said that he was in communication with generals, General Neil McCasland, General Michael Carey, Robert Weiss of Skunk Works, Lockheed Martin, John Podesta, and other senior officers in Space Command, the Central Intelligence Agency, and different sections of the US military were giving this punk rock star briefings, talking to him about what they knew. What I find fascinating is

journalists look for evidence, you look for corroborative evidence. And so I'd listened to Tom and like everybody else, I'd giggled, I thought this guy's completely bananas. You know, there's one particular coast to coast interview where I just thought he'd gone nuts. And then I remember feeling very humbled and quite ashamed of myself when I realized, oh my God, and I'm going through the DNC emails and going, hells bells, if he was telling the truth about this, could it be he was telling the truth about the general when the general said, it was the Cold War and we found a life form? Could it be possibly true that the general did say that to him? And if he didn't, why would Tom lie about that? You know, why hasn't Hillary Clinton been asked questions about this?

Why was she clearly, clearly, there were plans underway, and this is evidenced by these emails, there were plans underway by John Podesta in conjunction with certain generals in the US military, former and serving, to do something about a disclosure. That's revealed in these emails. They were talking about telling the American public something shortly after Hillary Clinton became president. There was going to be some kind of disclosure in 2017. I just find it mind blowing that you can have corroboration of the fact that these meetings were taking place with DeLong, with very senior officials. He was telling the truth about that. with DeLong, with very senior officials. He was telling the truth about that. And yet people haven't exercised the curiosity to go, well, if that was true, was Tom telling the truth about

warring gods and evil aliens? And, you know, is that true? Could it be true? I think we should be asking these questions. Because something was going on on and we still don't know what it was. And I just find it mind-blowing that the New York Times, the Washington Post, CBS, ABC, NBC haven't gone, Mrs. Clinton, don't stop it. Mrs. Clinton, Mrs. Clinton, what was going on? What was going on? Why was John Podesta meeting generals? Why were there talks of disclosure? Why are these questions not being asked? Is it just me that thinks this? Have I gone crazy? What was it that Tom DeLonge said that freaked you out? There's so many interviews. I don't want to sound like I'm overly promoting my book, but I've detailed them in my book. He talked about warring gods and and i guess if you're talking about future humans that are so technologically advanced maybe they are gods but um basically

there's a a conflict going on uh and that there were evils evil aliens that were indeed you know there were abductions and there were humans being killed. And, you know, it's quite shocking stuff. And look, I wouldn't believe any of it for a moment or give it any kind of airing until I see hard evidence. But the fact that Tom was saying that contemporaneously with all of these interviews that he was doing, he was also meeting with generals who were telling him these things. You know, he actually describes in one of his books how he actually sat down. He got on a private plane, was told to go to a particular airport in the Midwest somewhere.

And then he met a very senior general in a back cafe, in a diner somewhere in the middle of nowhere. And the general basically agreed to meet him and give him a briefing. And he really did say, you know, it was the Cold War, we we lived in constant fear for our lives, we thought the world was going to, you know, explode. And then we found a life form. And then what after that? Oh, look, read the book. Seriously, I don't want to. But basically, I mean, what's in the description for people who would like to buy it?

So basically, Tom's made a whole series of quite elaborate claims about what he was told. Incredible detail of warring alien groups trying to control the human race. And he actually said that when people came to understand what was really going on, they would actually think that the reasons for the secrecy were actually quite laudable and that the public would actually be grateful for what's being done on their behalf and who knows they may very well be but um to this day what is it now it's um six years since one of tom's last interviews where he was talking about this stuff uh you know he obviously set up ttsa i I think, in the expectation that Hillary Clinton was going to be the president and she was going to be a disclosure president. And no matter what Hillary Clinton or Bill have said publicly, it's quite obvious that there were negotiations going on behind the scenes because the emails with John Podesta show very, very clearly. There's a key one where Neil McCasland, who, I mean, he's a two-star general who was the guy who ran what we know as the Foreign Technology Division at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. I mean, if there is somewhere in America where non-human technology is being stored, hypothetically, that's where it's gone.

And he was purportedly briefing DeLong. And this is shown in these WikiLeaks emails. And they are leaked emails that were never intended to be public, that were clearly regarded by the DNC as being highly secure. And guess who leaked them? The Russians. The Russians hacked into the DNC, leaking them, thinking that the exchanges might assist Donald Trump in his re-election. Ask yourself why that would have been the case. But whatever you think of Trump or whatever you think of Clinton, the reality is these conversations were taking place. were taking place. And I think that's important. And it's a piece of history that nobody has asked questions about. I've asked, frankly, I've asked colleagues of mine and major national newspapers and TV networks in the States why they haven't looked at this, and all of them have been unaware of it. All of them have been unaware of the significance of these momentous emails where, you know, it's only when you actually look at what Tom DeLonge was saying,

that he'd been briefed into the existence of an alien spacecraft retrieval program by members of the US government, that there was a back engineering program going on underway. But also, at the same time, there was a war going on between competing civilizations that were competing for control of the human race. I mean, mind bogoggling stuff. Basically, it was also talking about how ancient there'd been previous civilizations on this planet before humanity arrived, and they'd been wiped out in cataclysms. And, you know, a lot of the evidence of old civilizations, if you actually analyze them properly, were not civilizations, if you actually analyze them properly, were not derived from current human civilization. I mean, mind boggling stuff. And all credit to Tom, frankly, I owe him a sincere apology for my appalling American imitation of his American accent and my audible version of my book.

But, you know, he's been proved right. He's been proved right. He really was having these meetings. been proved right. He's been proved right. He really was having these meetings. And when he appeared on Rojas and Coast to Coast and different podcasts, he was laughed at. People derided him. They says, oh, Tom Durong's gone crazy. But all credit to him, it will appear that from the corroboration that exists in the WikiLeaks emails, on at least some points, we can confirm he was absolutely telling the truth. So what else was he telling the truth about? What else was he being told by the US military? And more importantly, was that the truth? Or was it disinformation? I mean, were they using Tom to get a story out there that they knew people would pick up on because he was a popular figure?

That's always a possibility as well. You always have to be mindful for the possibility of disinformation. Now, this comes from William Edwards. Ross, what do you think of Eric Davis and Hal Puthoff's involvement with the Sapphire Project and Electric Universe Theory? Well spotted. I think that's very, very significant. I'm taking a very close interest

in the SAFIRE project because it's made a number of claims about its technology that frankly are awe-inspiring. I mean, they are literally claiming that they're getting more energy out than in at the moment. They have also claimed at different times to have an anti-gravitic effect across the poles of the diode that they're using to generate these plasmas, these EVOs. I've also been concerned to see that various defence officials and aerospace companies that are notorious for covering things up have come onto the picture and are taking an active interest in the SAFIRE technology. And my worry is that SAFIRE, like so many technologies before it, will disappear into the black.

I hope it doesn't because it really is quite exciting. I mean, I'm not a physicist, but one of the things that I'm fascinated by is the growing science to suggest that the academic dismissiveness of what's been called cold fusion in the past is not entirely legitimate. And that whilst we've been looking for many years at containing fusion reactions in, for example, magnetic tokamak reactors, that essentially magnetically constrain

a fusion reaction, it may be possible to create self generating plasmas that that draw energy in a way that we don't yet comprehend from what I think Hal Puthoff calls the zero-point energy field. And look, you know, I'm not a physicist, so I'm not even going to try and explain this in a scientific way, but I suggest I commend to everybody, go and have a look at the SAFIRE, S-A-F-I-R-E project. It's got videos that show what they've been able to achieve. And there's some interesting analysis. If you go to the Martin Fleischman Memorial Project, there's been some interesting work done by different

researchers analyzing the implications of their technology. And what fascinates me about it is it all goes to the notion of self-contained plasmas. And there's a lot of theoretical work that suggests that if there's ever going to be a breakthrough in antigravitics, if it is possible to create an Alcubierre drive, you know, to essentially distort space-time and put a bubble in front of a vehicle that distorts space-time and allows an object to move across the universe by essentially going through the fabric of space-time. If that kind of theoretical possibility, which has already been said by quantum physics to be a theoretical possibility is possible. Perhaps one of the ways of doing this is to use plasma technology to distort space-time, and perhaps that explains

the plasma hues that are often seen on these anomalous objects that are in our atmosphere. What was found on the moon, Ross? What was found on the moon, Ross? I was watching this documentary by Red Panda Koala, and I'll link that in the description. It's a great documentary on Tom DeLonge. And he was saying that what happened with the U.S. that went to the moon, that afterward the U.S. was involved in disinformation saying that we didn't go to the moon so that people can squabble over whether or not the moon landing was real and then not ask the question, well, what did they find on the moon?

And apparently there was something interesting. So I'm curious what was found on the moon. I don't know. But what I can tell you is that Edgar Mitchell told my friend, the spaceman, who was one of Edgar's closest personal friends, that he believed that every Apollo mission was followed up, observed while there, and followed back. that when he was on the moon in the course of coming in, flying the lunar module into a landing position on, I think it's the Sea of Morris. I can't remember again the precise name, but he claimed to my friends that he saw an object, which funnily enough, when you actually look at the film, the NASA film of the lunar module landing, if you look where he says

he saw the object, you can see something that's anomalous. But he says that when they landed, and he got out of the lunar module and was doing his walk, he looked back across to see if he could see that object, and he should have been able to see it, but he couldn't see it anymore. So Edgar Mitchell is not the only one, he's not the only astronaut and people really should take a much closer look at this. He's not the only person who said that he's seen stuff. A lot of astronauts have reported seeing anomalous phenomena. But frankly, if there is stuff on the moon, I just don't know. I'm not privy to any secret information. Nobody's given me a briefing about it,

but certainly astronauts have reported seeing anomalous phenomena there for years. And I don't think NASA has given a full accounting of all of the anomalous objects that have been seen from the space station or indeed from the Gemini or Apollo capsules. Okay. Brendan Irwin says, heck yes, you're picking all my dream guests, Kurt. Do you have mind reading technology? In plain sight is gold. My question is, does Ross think there's anything substantial to Tom DeLonge's claim that the DoD has been testing reverse engineered UAP that can disappear, as claimed on his now infamous Rogan podcast. In other words, has Ross heard any legitimate claims from his sources that the DOD has tested cloaking technology? Look, again, I'm kind of nervous even beginning to answer this question, because yet again,

Again, I'm kind of nervous even beginning to answer this question because, yet again, I preface everything I say here by saying I am highly sceptical of what I'm about to tell you. I don't know whether to believe it or not. And when I did my book research, I did what any investigative journalist does, which is I thought about how do I protect sources that should be the first imperative with anybody when they're doing this kind of digging? Because anybody who's talking about what they know about the program, if such a secret program exists in

the US government, you're inviting them to breach their security oath. So how do you do that? So I knew I had phone numbers and email addresses for a lot of people, hundreds of people that I knew were people who, if there was such a program, would probably know about it. And I did things like I looked at members of the Special Access Program Oversight Committee, past and present members of the DIA, people who were cleared into certain projects that had been written about in academic papers. And I just basically trawled as far and wide as I looked for names and addresses

of these people. And the thing I love about America is you're such an open society that it was possible to get their home addresses in many cases. And so rather than leave an electronic trail, which I knew would compromise them immediately, because it can always be picked up, the metadata is always stored from mobile phone, telephony, or emails, or SMSs, or social media. I wrote good old fashioned letters. So for months, I just wrote letter after letter after letter after letter. And some of the people that I wrote to were people that I had been told by other sources were people who had worked in what is euphemistically called the program. They'd been read into a program where allegedly, and I emphasize again, I'm only saying that this is

what I've been told. I'm not saying it's real. Anyway, I started getting messages back. People were communicating with me on encrypted apps or messaging systems that I was told to access them through on the dark web. And they provided me with information that they said the public should know. And they asserted that there was a back engineering program that there is recovered multiple craft. But I got different messages about the success of those programs. I was told that, yes, there have been multiple craft recovered. But a number of sources told me that they'd been largely unsuccessful in replicating the technology. And that indeed was the explanation that was given to me as the reason why the public hadn't been told the whole story. Because why would you? Why would you give a strategic advantage to your rivals, your

international rivals like Russia or China by revealing the existence of this technology when allegedly, and again, I'm not saying this is for sure, but I've been told also that the Russians have recovered technology. So that's what I've been told. You know, I've been told that, you know, there are people that have made claims to me that they've been involved in the program, that they've been read into different aspects of the program, and that they've been working on different parts of the technology. But nobody that I've spoken to has told me that they've been able to replicate it successfully and develop a working anti-gravity propulsion drive or free energy drive. And then you have these weird cognitive dissonances with things

like the patents that were filed by the US Navy by a guy called Dr. Salvatore Pei from the US Navy's Paxton Research Laboratory in Washington, D.C., which make completely off-the-wall claims that they have operable technology. Force-fuel generators, room-temperature superconductors, transmedium vehicles that look alarmingly like the Tic Tac, you know, weird fusion reactors. I mean, it's weird stuff that's been sought for patent applications

by the US Navy. And when in a number of cases they were knocked back by the patent examiners and queried about the validity of the scientific claims, a letter was sent in by Pai's commander, a guy called Shihi, who asserted that the technology was, quote, operable. So we're in a really interesting period in history right now where an arm of the US Defense Department has asserted that it has cracked this technology. Publicly, though, we're being told nothing about it. Yet at the same time, we're also witnessing a phenomenon

on our planet which is inexplicable, that is not matching known human technology. So that's why I still think it's possible that this might be black world technology. Maybe we've cracked it. Maybe when we went black with anti-gravity in the 1950s and the 1960s, we really did crack it. I don't know. I just don't know.

Have you spoken to Salvador? Oh, believe me, I've tried. Yeah, I've tried. I think the only person who's been able to get a communication going with him is Brett Tingley from The Drive, the Warzone online blog. And he did a very good job, Brett, to secure that. And Salvatore Pei defended the validity of his patents and asserted that his technology was genuinely operable. But every physicist that I've spoken to told me that it's complete pie-in-the- sky bullshit, that none of it's for real. Now, modern science has been wrong before. I think the notion of an incredible weapon that

could split the atom would have been inconceivable to many scientists back in the 1940s, and yet we were working on it in secret in the Manhattan Project. Project Unity wants me to ask you about Nat Kobitz. Good on Project Unity. It's a great site. Nat Kobitz, who became a very solid friend of mine, was the Director of Science Technology Development for the US Navy. Sadly, he was one of the people I wrote to. And I honestly, in my dreams would never have expected that somebody with his seniority would write back. But one day out of the blue, he just literally contacted me and we started having conversations and we spoke for quite a while. But it was obvious to me that he was dying. He had cancer and his family explained to me

that he had terminal cancer. And I think that affected his willingness to discuss what he discussed because there came a time when I asked him, Matt, were you ever read into, were you ever security briefed into alleged alien craft retrieval back engineering programs? And it's funny, because I was just getting ready to move on, because there was a pause, you know,

I, you know, there was a big pregnant silence. And then all of a sudden, he came back and said, yes. But I was never read out of it, so there's not much I can say. And so began the most extraordinary period of discussions, a lot of which I haven't put in the book because I don't think I have any right to but he introduced me to a wide range of people who asserted that they were aware of the program. Nat had never personally seen these, quote, multiple craft himself. But because of who he was, he was essentially the chief research geek for the US Navy. He was read into them. And he did tell me that on one occasion after he'd left the Navy, when he was working in his private company in

K Associates, NKA, he was an expert in a type of welding called electron beam welding, EBW, which is a type of welding for bonding two different types of metal at very, very high strength. Apparently, they do the undercarriage for the C5 Galaxy, for example. That was his speciality, bonding metals. And he got a phone call from what you and I would know as the Foreign Technology Division of the Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, you know, the apocryphal car park for UFOs. And he was flown to Wright-Patt and taken into a secure area. And he told me that he was shown a section of bulkhead, several feet wide, several feet square. section of bulkhead, several feet wide, several feet square. And he said he couldn't explain what that bulkhead was, but it was clearly from quote, a craft, it looked like a fractured piece of metal from a craft, but he could see it was two types of metal. And he was allowed to examine it,

they wanted his opinion about how it had been bonded, they thought it might have been bonded using electron beam welding. But when he looked at it microscopically, he could see that it was bonded at the atomic level, to use his words. He said it was beyond anything he'd ever seen. He'd never seen bonding like that. It was like the atoms had been layered in a way that he couldn't explain. And he said he wish he knew how that technology worked because it was fantastic. And that was all he ever saw. But basically, this is an official of the US government, a very senior member of the US Navy, claiming that he was briefed into a crash retrieval program. And that on one occasion, he still maintained a security oath,

occasion, he still maintained his security oath. He was briefed into a viewing of a piece of bulkhead. And I said to him, I said, was it alien? And all he would do is just laugh. And he said, you know, I'm a scientist, you know, I deal in what I know, all I know is I couldn't explain what that was. And he said, to this day, I still can't explain how that metal was bonded. But what was enormously useful was he kindly, graciously facilitated introductions for me to other people who are the primary sources that I've developed an opinion based on what they told me. And they are the people who then went on to talk about the existence of an ongoing back engineering program involving multiple craft. And I still shake my head when I say that, because it just seems incomprehensible to me as an investigative journalist with some reputation that I'm even talking about this stuff because I'm worried about being ridiculed or attacked for even saying it. But ultimately, I'm using the same objective fact testing that I use as a journalist with any other story.

fact testing that I use as a journalist with any other story. And I'm inexorably led to a conclusion that prima facie on the facts, I have a suspicion that the United States does have multiple recovered craft. And especially when you look at the context of comments made by people, good people like Dr. Eric Davis and others, including Senator Harry Reid, who's kind of wavered a bit from time to time because I think he's been reminded of his security oaths as a member of the Gang of Eight. Something's going on. You know, I'm not satisfied that we don't have, I can't rule out that we have this technology or the Americans have got this technology hidden somewhere in a basement. And I find it mind boggling that defense, aerospace, national security reporters aren't asking the question. And I noticed in the period

coming up to the UAP Task Force report, you might be able to find it on the web. There was one very enterprising journalist who unusually had the gall at the Pentagon press briefing to actually ask, is the US, I think the question was, you know, is the US hiding alien spacecraft? You know, do you have recovered alien spacecraft? And rather than answer the question, rather than just dismiss it peremptorily, as you would expect a Pentagon spokesman to do, what really struck me was how he just avoided the question and said, we'll have to wait for the findings of the UAP task force. Really interesting. And you've got to also see that in the context of comments that have been made by people like Donald Trump.

of comments that have been made by people like Donald Trump. I mean, you know, frankly, as far as I can see, Trump was completely open about most things in his government. And there was a really revealing interview that he did with Don Trump Jr., his son, in the months running up to the election. And Don Jr. asked his father, so, Dad, you know, a lot of us want to know, you know, what about Roswell?

You know, there's all these claims about alien craft and stuff like that. You would expect the President of the United States to go, ah, come on, son, you know, don't worry, my time with that BS. But no, Trump gave it currency. He gave it validity. He said that's a very interesting story,

and he acknowledged that he'd like to reveal more about that. Trump gave it currency. He gave it validity. He said, that's a very interesting story. And he acknowledged that he'd like to reveal more about that. Go figure. Okay. This question comes from Dom Talong. What have you heard from a credible source that was too incredible for you to make the leap and include it in your book? I'm not going to go there. I got into trouble just the other day for reporting something that I've been told by somebody about the US using its knowledge of craft frequencies to bring down craft. And I got bollocksed for that. So I'm not going to go there.

I'm sorry. I do know some pretty amazing things, and I've been told some amazing things, but frankly, I'm feeling the sting right now of UFO Twitter that frankly doesn't seem to understand that when people are talking about things that they've been told by people, it doesn't necessarily mean that I'm saying it's for real. So, yeah, frankly, not going there. Faraz Delaware wants, or Delaware wants to know,

what does Ross know about the Majestic 12, the Majestic 12 and secret alien bodies in 40s and 50s? I just don't know. I mean, like everybody, I've read about the MJ-12 claims. One of the things that fascinates me is if there is a secret being kept, and if there are a group of people in the US government that are keeping the secret, there are a group of people in the US government that are keeping this secret. And I think there is, then somebody is somebody's obviously running a disinformation effort. Somebody is obviously coordinating who gets told what somebody is running it. I don't think it's called MJ 12. The

most recent iteration I was told was Zodiac. But again, I think that's been overtaken by events as well, because that name became public. There must be people in positions of power in the United States government who are briefed into the program, if the program exists, if the program exists, if the program exists. But certainly, I am more than happy to say that I think that there are people in the US government who know a lot more than they're letting on about the phenomenon. And yes, there is a group that is coordinating what we're told about that. And I guess I can understand that to some degree, you know, you wouldn't, if it's a matter of national security, you'd want to guard it quite carefully.

But is there a sinister body that is controlling what we know for nefarious reasons? God, I hope not. I mean, one thing I love about America is that for all of its faults, there's still a streak of moral decency that runs through its government. You know, it has principles, constitutional principles that it holds dear, at least it pays lip service to. I mean, God forbid, if this technology exists, God forbid that it falls into the hands of authoritarian dictatorships like Russia or China. I mean, if there is technology or information that the world is on the cusp of learning,

I hope it's done through the auspices of a democratic country that has respect for individual human rights and liberty. Because you wouldn't want technologies that have been described to me and of which we're now aware in the hands of the wrong people. Question to Ross from euphoricger4674, as a journalist who understands- We didn't get all these names. I'm going to have to change my name. My name's far too boring. This is- Sorry. Question to Ross Ross as a journalist who understands the news cycle. And you know that the general public jumps from topic to topic. What can we do? I'm assuming he means as the public as the people watching this, what can we do to keep the UFO story in

the headlines until the truth comes out? In other words, how do we not lose the momentum on this topic? Oh, boy, that's a really good question. I don't think people out there realize how powerful they are. I mean, really, I've sat in the offices of ministers of government and seen how they overreact to a dozen letters on an issue. You know, ministers, staffers panic when they get letters, a good old fashioned handwritten typed letter that says, I want you to investigate blah, I'm a voter. I influence a large number of people in the electorate that I'm in, which just so happens to be a marginal electorate. I want you to do something about this, you're my political representative, act, do something now. And so I really in, which just so happens to be a marginal electorate. I want you to do something about this, you know, you're my political representative, act, do something now. And so I really think the simplest thing that people can do is let their political representatives know that this issue

matters to them. I mean, you know, you've got elections at the moment in Canada. And at the moment, the big question is, will Trudeau survive government? Why aren't people asking him on the campaign trail, Mr Prime Minister, have you been read into anything pertaining to UAPs? Why isn't that a legitimate question when the United States government has admitted that the phenomenon is real? You know, what's the cognitive dissonance here that means that even though the Pentagon has now acknowledged the phenomenon is real, it cannot explain prosaically this phenomenon. The mainstream media still to a large degree treat it with a ridicule and contempt, kind of a taboo and stigma. It has to change. And

ultimately, what people need to do is get on the blower, but don't do it in a nutty way. You know, say to a journalist, excuse me, you're the national security writer for the Globe and Mail or the national security writer for the New York Times. Why did you poo poo the whole issue of UFOs in that article you wrote the other day? You know, why are you not taking it seriously when the US government is? You know, are you aware of this issue, this issue, and this issue that legitimizes why this is a legitimate area for investigation? Hey, have you read the book In Plain Sight by Ross Coulthard?

But more importantly, the other thing you can do is get on the blower or write. Actually, writing is really important. A physical letter makes a huge difference. It could be typed, but as long as it's printed. Typed, yeah, typed. Yeah, people should just get on their typewriter and write. Well, what do they use these days? Their laptop and write a letter. Get on their typewriter.

I grew up in journalism when you actually did carbons. This is how old I am. You wrote carbons of your story. And so I have to have four bits of carbon paper and then type on a typewriter my story. And then I'd put a pin through the paper and send different copies off to different editors. That's how we circulated stories. And, you know, it's amazing these days, because we now live in an age where it's very easy to distribute information. But that old fashioned way of distributing information in a letter, I found it an extraordinarily powerful research tool when I was writing my book, because it was a way of protecting sources, because snail mail to a

large degree is not intercepted. Still, it is intercepted sometimes, but not as much as emails or other forms of electronic communication. And so there's enormous power in writing a letter to a minister of government saying, or even, you know, for example, if you're a TV reporter or just an activist journalist, politely, you know, don't be nasty about it. Respectfully, I found the best ways to be respectful and honourable to people and give them a break. You know, get a camera. Next time you know Hillary Clinton somewhere, say, oh, Mrs. Clinton. Hi, my name's Joe Bloggs. I'm a citizen podcast activist interested in UFOs. She might start walking away. Can I ask you what you were talking to

John Podesta about in 2016? You know, what were you talking about when you said in this email, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, people need to ask the nuts and bolts questions, we need to drill down and actually do some serious research. For example, just the other day, For example, just the other day I've written a letter to a guy who claims in a book that JFK wrote a memo on the 12th of November 1963 that asked the director of the CIA to collate UFO information that was sensitive for national security so that it could be shared with the Russians. Now, I hasten to add, he claimed, the writer claimed that he'd obtained that memo on freedom of information from the CIA. And there was an article that was published in the media that said immediately that the provenance of that memo was in question because when they checked at the

JFK library they couldn't find any such memo and so you were left at the end of all of the articles that were published about this guy's book with the impression that that 12th of November 1963 memo was a fake it was a hoax either he was hoaxed or you know somebody had done it so I thought bugger, I want to know. So I tracked down the guy last night. I've emailed him and if I don't hear from him, I'll post him a letter. But I want to know, I want to ring him and find out what the hell's going on. What's the truth of that claim? Did he actually FOI and did he obtain that document on FOI? And if I can find out that he did obtain that document on FOI,

why then were all these articles written in the media asserting that it couldn't be a real document? Who instigated those articles? Was it disinformation? So that's the way my brain works. You know, I'm an investigative journalist, and so I don't take any fact for granted. I have to test those facts and verify

them for myself. And that's where I'm at, basically, I'm constantly checking things. And so people should do that. So one of the things that has come up a bit in today's conversation is people have often said, you know, what do you think about blah? And a lot of that is unverifiable. You know, I can't verify alien abductions or experiences. I can't. But if there are specific incidents, like, you know, one of the things that I have a bee in my bonnet about is the way that NASA never responds. Have you noticed this? They never respond to those weird shots. There's one in particular that gets my imagination going of an object that's shot from the space station

or from a spacecraft of some kind looking down on the planet. And what you see is an object that's moving along and then a light flashes from the planet below. And interestingly enough, it's over northwestern Australia, which is why I'm interested in it. And the object reacts before the light hits it and then just goes and moves off now i haven't seen i have what can i find that uh look it's in the in endless numbers of nasa space objects i'm sure some of your listeners will know about it before the end of this conversation, they will have posted it. But it really does look amazing.

And so I've approached NASA, I've approached different space experts, and I've said, can anybody explain this? Now, because I'm not in America, I'm not able to go to the NASA archives, I can't go and verify that particular piece of film from, I think it was the space shuttle, to see whether or not it really was on that STS on that particular space shuttle mission. But people need to do the work

to actually go, okay, here is a potential mystery. Here's an issue that can be investigated. Let's drill down and test the provenance of the claims that have been made about this video. What if we can show that it is a real NASA video? Then we go to a defense reporter on a major national newspaper and we say, okay, we've done the homework for you because most of these reporters don't have the time. This is the reality from my time in commercial television, working in freeware. Most of them don't have the time. This is the reality from my time in commercial television, working in freeware. Most of them don't have the time to do this kind of grunt investigative journalism. If you go to them and say, hey, listen, this is the work we've done. We're a UFO transparency group. You may think we're crazy, but have a look at this. These are the source

documents from NASA. We've gone to NASA's own archives. This film came from this time period in this shuttle mission. Here's the proof. You can find it on this file in this archival document on the NASA's files. Look at it. What's that like? What's that object evading? What the hell's going on here? You know, the thing that irritates me is the number of times things get posted onto the web by people who think they're doing the right thing in ufology. And they haven't done the basic checks before they put it up there. And then immediately what happens is somebody just goes, oh, yeah, that's bullshit. And it dies, dies on the vine. What people need to do is become cleverer. They need to test the evidence first before they put it up there. And so that's why, frankly, I have a lot of trouble with the

blurry videos of distant objects that people endlessly post on the web, because they can be faked so easily. They're so useless. They're so helpless. But what if you can go back through, as I know you can. And this is interesting. Edgar Mitchell sat on a couch with my friend, the spaceman, and showed him the original digitized NASA films of the lunar landings, and pointed out to him things that he, Edgar said were anomalous. And I've seen them. I've sat there with the spaceman and watched them and gone, shit, he's right. And this is the thing that really blows me away is there could be a whole area of UFO investigation that actually seriously

engages with the content that NASA itself has broadcast. And when NASA refuses to answer, go to your congressman and say, sorry, can we get a question posed, please, at the Senate Armed Services Committee or at the NASA Oversight Committee? Can we get a question asked about why they're refusing to answer questions from citizens who are paying their tax bill? Because people forget these are publicly funded organizations. They are accountable to you, the public. You own them. They're yours. They may not like admitting that, but they're your institutions. They have to be accountable to you. And one of the things that, to me, just grates as a journalist is that people don't understand their rights to ask. They might refuse, but if they do refuse, you put that up in lights, NASA has refused to

answer a reasonable question about x, y, and z, why? Then you go to your next congressman, and you say, well, your senator, and you say, Senator, will you ask a question in the Federal Congress about, you know, why NASA is refusing to answer questions, then you turn it into a huge issue. I mean, look at the momentum that was developed for that stupid raid area 51 thing. You know, people, people thought they were helping. Yeah. Imagine if instead of raid area 51, it was NASA tell the truth, you know, explain these videos, explain the anomalies. Imagine if there was a sensitive science, sorry, a sensible scientific engagement with the anomalous objects that have repeatedly

been cited on NASA missions, many of which NASA has not been able to explain. Well, we'll see if we can get that popularized this hashtag NASA tell the truth. After once this video is reposted now kurt you've exhausted me mate so i really don't know how much longer i can go yeah okay well then how about let's break it down into three steps for the people who are watching just the audience not journalists okay so what should they do first search google for local representative like what are they let's break it down into three concrete steps. What do they do? Okay. Don't be insulting.

Political representatives are just going to throw your letter in the mail if you're rude or impolite or if you come across as a crazy person. So be respectful. Don't just dash off a stupid email that doesn't ask a question, write a really cleverly considered carefully written letter. So for example, let's just use as an example, the NASA objects. Somebody needs to go to the NASA archives and search those archives for the film vision that is regularly posted up on YouTube saying, you know, where somebody says, hey, look at this shuttle mission STS-16 at 21 minutes 30, there's a object that does X, Y, and Z. Somebody needs to go and prove that in the files and prove that and get the actual data and write it all up, do the research. So maybe there's somebody here from Florida who can go and sit down in NASA or in Houston

or wherever it is. Do that research. Collaborate. And this is the thing I've learned as a journalist. I'm a member of this group called ICIJ, where we, for example, investigated the Panama papers, the leaked papers that showed who was evading tax by having tax shelters in the Bahamas and other places like that. And we all collaborated.

So there was a guy in Belgium who could do a property search for me in Belgium, and I could do a land title search in Sydney, and we could share data. It's cool. It's a really cool thing to do. You guys can do this in the world of UAPs, UFOs, you can share data, be intelligent. Don't just shove a bloody video up and go, Oh, look what I found that I beat everybody else to it by putting it up here, and then it immediately gets shot down in flames. Don't put it up there until you've verified its provenance, if you can. So, you know, go to NASA, get the data, and then put together a considered letter. Dear Senator, please find attached an MPV file or whatever WV file which shows vision of an object that was shot from the space shuttle Endeavour on blah date on blah time on this mission. I know this,

and I can verify this because this is the file number of where this is stored in the NASA archive and I have this proved copy of that data which I obtained from NASA under FOI. I put it to you sir that this shows an anomalous intelligently controlled object maneuvering in our orbit and it is clearly a space vehicle of some kind that is not human. Can I please ask why this is not being investigated? If there is a legitimate national security reason for why we're not being told the truth about this, can this please be explained to me?

I am representative of an organisation that represents 5,000 people. You know, maybe it's MUFON, I don't know. You know, please, sir move on, I don't know. You know, please, sir, kindly, could I request that you direct your questions to this the next meeting of the NASA Oversight Committee? You know, this is how you do it. Be respectful. You never know. The mood in the Congress at the moment is really interesting. I'm talking to congressmen, senators and their staffers. They're waiting for the public to show they want this, because I don't think it's going to happen. I'm not of the view that there's going to be transparency any more than what we've got at the moment. I think we've been sold a pup. I think that the UAP task force really only largely came about because of the activism of the TTSA people, good people like Lou Elizondo, Christopher Mellon, and Tom DeLock. What he's

done is amazing, all credit to Tom, frankly, what he's done is absolutely amazing. He's brought this ahead far more than I think anybody realised he ever would. But there's nothing going to happen. There's certainly not going to happen. There's certainly not going to be public hearings or congressional hearings unless the public make it clear intelligently and firmly that they do want it and that these are the reasons why and these are the things that should be investigated. So when people send me experiencer videos and say, you know, I've seen this object hovering at 20,000 feet, and all I see is a white dot moving across the sky. What the hell am I meant to do with that? No disrespect to the people that

sent it to me. But seriously, I can't verify its provenance. I don't know what you've done with it. But let's think intelligently. Let's look at the things that we know come from government itself, like, for example, the Nimitz sighting. You know, we know for a fact that the reason why the government's been forced into the position that it's been forced into at the moment, it's largely because of the incredible work that was done by different people to expose what was revealed in the Nimitz data. And the reason that why that was so efficacious was because there is clearly vision, which was confirmed by sensor systems. And what I've been told, Bob Fish, who was one of my informants that went on the record in my book, he's a guy with extremely high security

clearances who is aware of the reality of the phenomenon. He's been briefed about anomalous objects that have been seen on satellites and seen coming in and out of the ocean, he tells me. He told me that people should be looking at the data, the kind of data that would be being collected by the E-2 Hawkeye aircraft. You're talking about telemetry data, the E-2 Hawkeye aircraft, you're talking about telemetry data, not just radar data, you're talking about very high level electromagnetic data, communications data, measuring the frequencies of those objects. That telemetry data would exist, and nobody apparently has FOI'd it. Let's FOI that. has FOI'd it. Let's FOI that. So there are ways of investigating this in a rigorous, scientific, objective way. And as best I can, I'm asking questions myself. But I am a little frustrated with the tendency on UFO Twitter for people to seize across every new crazy rumor. And it's

really not helping, frankly. It just paints you all as a bunch of bloody loonies. And you're not, I know you're not. You know, there is something real there, the government's confirmed that it's real. But by continuing just to post blurry videos, and, you know, uncorroborable witness accounts, it's really not helping. What people need to do is become far more methodical and clever. And it's interesting because if you look at your history, way back in the 1950s, the people who were driving the push for disclosure, the Lou Elizondo's and the Christopher Mellon's of their day, they included people on NICAP like Roscoe Hillencotter, a former director of the Central Intelligence Agency. Why the hell was a former director of the CIA actively pushing for disclosure by the US government of what it knew about the phenomenon? Clearly, he believed that the US was hiding something 70 years ago. And here we are, 70 years later, and it's the same old cycle.

So it's very, very easy to think that it might be possible that we're just being bought off with another lame promise that they're going to do some kind of UFO oversight inside the Congress or inside the Office of the Undersecretary of Defense Intelligence. But that the secret, the real secrets will be kept for another 50 to 100 years. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they were, because people aren't pushing. They're not using the powers that they have in the Congress to actually demand that their congressmen ask questions. And they need to arm their congressmen and congresswomen with the sort of questions that need to be being asked. And they need to be intelligent questions, not dumb, whack-up job questions that make people sound like loops.

No, no. And try and limit the number of stamps you put on the envelope, because if it's more than four stamps, I generally think you're crazy. And sorry, I'm not being flippant here but you know the um well I am being flippant but I mean I I do think there's a serious message here is that that ufology needs to wake up to itself it is right I mean people get angry with um skeptical questioning by people like John Greenwald of the Black Vault I'm a fan of. I love what he does. And he should be asked for questions. And Mick West, for example, God bless him. But Don Chiodi of sceptics, tilting at that windmill. But we need people like that. It's really important that the claims made be tested. And I've been pulled up on a few things

where people have said to me, well, how do you know that they're using the frequencies that they can detect these objects by to bring them down? Because I've recently talked about the fact that there is stories that are uncorroborated, that the United States might be trying to think about bringing down one of these objects. And even though I said it 100 times, I don't know it. I don't. But what I'm reporting is what I've been told. And sometimes maybe it's not a good idea to report those things. Maybe it's better just to keep your mouth shut. Let's deal objectively with what we do know. What we do know is that there is a phenomenon that is unexplained.

And it's been admitted to be unexplained by the most powerful country on the planet. There are objects that appear to be intelligently controlled craft that are maneuvering, hypersonic maneuvers. They're capable of doing all manner of weird things. And the government admits it's real. and the government admits it's real. That's a pretty good start for people to start writing to their congressmen and demanding action, demanding oversight hearings. And one of the things that they'll be very, very sensitive about

is the questions about the black budget. Because really, in the last 30 years, not much has come out of Area 51, and yet trillions of dollars have been spent in the black budget where US taxpayers, if they actually added it all up, have no bloody idea where their money's gone. There are literally dozens, hundreds of black projects where money's been sunk into things

and the public haven't been told what it was for. Now, for all their faults, the one thing the generals are worried about, the one thing the people spending the money are worried about is having to account for that money. And believe me, when the question's asked, they will have to answer. So it's the good old political maximum, the wheel that squeaks gets the grease. If you want action to happen, you have to become, it's not enough just to bleat on social media, not going to work. If you've got the time to sit down and pin some poisonous venom on social media for half an hour, why not just sit down and find out the name of your political representatives and write to them and say, this matters to you. And I'm not crazy. I'm a doctor or a lawyer or

a businessman. And I actually think that there is something really serious behind this phenomenon. And I want you, my political representative, to take it seriously. I want transparent, open hearings in the Congress. And if not, why not? And this will affect my vote. End of letter. I like that. Okay, Ross, thank you so much. You've been extremely generous with your time. I'm going to say goodbye to the audience and then we'll just speak for a minute off air. Sure. Lovely to talk to you. Goodbye, everyone. Thank you so much. There's been, I think, 1000 people at its max, and it's been hovering at around 850 people constantly. So

thank you. I'm going to stop the stream and then Ross, let's talk. I asked Ross to give me three steps that those who are interested in the UFO phenomenon can take in order to get the government to release more information on this topic. He sent me seven steps. Here they are. Number one, pick an issue pertaining to UAPs that offer an opportunity to perhaps independently verify or debunk the claims made about it. For example, in the case of STS-48, that is, the 1991 shuttle mission, there's been a plethora of claims on the internet, with debunkers saying it's clearly ICE and the conspiracists asserting it's ET. Number two, to the end of resolving the matter, assess whether it adequately explains all the issues raised by the evidence. In this case, I've read the popular science explanation by James Oberg, but nothing adequately addresses the flash of light you see at a considerable distance from the shuttle. What could this be?

Number three. Let's obtain the original data. In this case, it would be NASA's own vision and the other data James Oberg cites in his paper. Number four. Assess the data and see if there are unanswered questions remaining. If there are unanswered questions, then number five, write a polite and careful letter to your congressman slash congresswoman setting out why you believe this is

an unresolved mystery that is worthy of official engagement by your political representative. Number six, if this letter gets ignored, publish your research efforts online and show people the efforts you've made to verify the reality behind the observed phenomenon. This is extremely important. This is Kurt's note now. This step is the most important because otherwise we'll have people saying, well, look, I've reached out. Well, what's your evidence that you've reached out? You're asking for them to provide evidence. How about you provide some evidence that you've actually done the work and have filed, let's say, an FOI claim or have sent a physical letter to a congressperson? Then Ross says that the number seven step, which is the last step, is move on to the next claim.

Best wishes and warm thanks, Ross Coulthart. The podcast is now finished. If you'd like to support conversations like this, then do consider going to patreon.com slash C-U-R-T-J-A-I-M-U-N-G-A-L. That is Kurt Jaimungal. It's support from the patrons and from the sponsors that allow me to do this full time. Every dollar helps tremendously. Thank you. you