Theories of Everything with Curt Jaimungal - Tim Maudlin Λ Bernardo Kastrup: Non-locality, Bell's Theorem

Starting point is 00:00:00 I think physical realism and locality are both disproven unless one is prepared to entertain sometimes grotesque theoretical fantasies. Tim Modlin is a professor of physics and philosophy at New York University and has also been on the Theories of Everything channel twice, once before with Tim Palmer for a theolocution on superdeterminism, Bell's theorem, and fractals, as well as a solo episode, which is one of our most beloved physics episodes. Tim Modlin is also helping organize the John Bell Institute, which is a foundation for research

Starting point is 00:00:34 about the foundations of physics. I've donated to this GoFundMe as there aren't many places in the entire world that are dedicated to making progress at the foundational level. Rather, there are separate programs like Strings. The links to everything mentioned, including the John Bell Institute, are in the description. Bernardo Kastrop holds a PhD, both in computer science and another in philosophy, and is now an advocate of what's called analytic idealism, the notion that the

Starting point is 00:00:58 material world around us is a mere projection of mind, and that at the fundament, all that exists are mental elements, or are just one instance of one ontological type. This is distinct from Donald Hoffman, however, there are various overlaps and similarities. Bernardo also runs the Essentia Foundation, links to which are in the description, and he's been on the podcast before several times, once with Professor Verveke, Professor Susan Schneider, Professor Donald Hoffman, Professor Susan Blackmore, a solo episode, another with Christopher Langan and Sabine Hossenfelder. At the end of this episode will be an extremely lengthy update on the Theories of Everything channel. My name is Kurt J. Mungle, and welcome to the Theories of Everything podcast, where we explore

Starting point is 00:01:38 toes from a theoretical physics and mathematical perspective, as well as a philosophical one. Enjoy this theolocution with Tim Modlin and Bernardo Kastrup. Okay, welcome Bernardo. Welcome Tim. Thank you all for coming on to the podcast again. I would just like to start by asking you how is your day? How has your day been? And what are you all working on? We'll start with Tim and then we'll go to you, Bernardo. How's my day? Fine. It's rainy. I went swimming. That was nice. What am I working on? Well, what I've been working on on a large scale for years and years, and I'm still trying to get through is a new account, possible way of thinking of space and time as being discrete. And that just requires a whole lot of choices and a lot of,

Starting point is 00:02:26 you know, figuring out how to set the thing up. And so that's kind of the biggest project that that's going on. Hopefully someday a book will come out. And you want it to be discrete because the continuum has too many problems or being discrete solves. I mean, first of all,

Starting point is 00:02:44 everybody knows from antiquity it might be discrete so it's you know it's a hypothesis worth investigating and simply saying it's discrete doesn't nail down the geometry much at all there are just lots and lots and lots of ways to try and realize that idea um if it's discrete then pretty clearly you're not going to run into singularities. That is, all the math will be set up in a way that no calculation can yield a value that exceeds all bounds the way it can in a continuum. So, sure, there will be certain technical problems that simply can't arise in such a setting. technical problems that simply can't arise in such a setting. But, and the other thing is if you do it discreetly,

Starting point is 00:03:35 it's pretty hard to avoid having a kind of preferred foliation, which is something I want for reasons of explaining non-locality and violations of Bell's inequality. So it's just kind of built into it from the beginning, which to me, that's not a bug, that's a feature. All right. Okay, Bernardo, so how's your day? And what are you working on these days? I have so far had a good day. I just finished writing one of the two books that I had committed to my publisher for this year. The other one information theory, because I think IIT potentially offers an account for dissociation, which is critical for objective idealism. So I've been giving it a lot of thought, even though I promised myself I would just think about it after I'm done with the second book. I can't help. I am sort of, I'm being attacked by these thoughts and I have no defenses. So I think I'm going to pursue this

Starting point is 00:04:54 more seriously once I finish the second book. Well, publishing one book in two years is difficult. So how are you managing to publish two books in one year? Is it stream of consciousness? Do you already have the ideas sorted out? Well, I haven't written anything in three years. I sort of took a break for three years, focusing purely on the Sensha Foundation and getting that going. The books, by the time I start writing them, they are in my mind already. I don't, I don't know whether I'm typical in this respect.

Starting point is 00:05:31 Maybe I'm, I'm anomalous. Maybe I'm a weird guy, but I don't, I don't decide to write a book. Usually the book comes to me and I just have to sit down and write when I have time. So this year it's two and I run it past my publisher and they thought, yeah, let's do two books this year because you haven't done anything three years. I was on a holiday, so now I have to

Starting point is 00:06:00 compensate. Professor Modlin, people already know about the John Bell Institute because it will be in the introduction, but even though it will be there, can you please outline what it is and what your ongoing challenges are and why it's important for physics for there to be an institute like this? Sure, I'd be glad to. So it's the John Bell Institute for the Foundations of Physics, and it's devoted to the foundations of physics, which is a field that, as I like to say, is a kind of orphan in terms of the standard academic structure of universities. Because physics departments have kind of don't teach courses in foundations of physics. And the people who do it are divided among physics departments, math departments, and philosophy departments. So it just doesn't really have a

Starting point is 00:06:55 home. And so what I was basically trying to do was find a home for it. The governing board by charter has two physicists, two mathematicians, and two philosophers. So we're trying to bring in people with these different backgrounds and provide a venue in which they can talk to each other and have workshops and have summer schools. The physical place right now, I'm in the middle of trying to secure a physical location for it in Croatia, and we're trying to raise funds and maybe be able to partner with the University of Split, if we're lucky, to do that and then just provide a home for it because it doesn't have a home. Nobody, you know, it's just hasn't fit into the curriculum and doesn't fit in many funding, normal funding channels. Like if you go to the National Science Foundation and look for money for something like this, it just, you know, they don't it doesn't fit in the programs they have set up. So, yeah, I've been doing that for the last five years. It was first getting the people together, which is the most important thing. And now this logistical part of trying to find a physical location where we can set up, which we have the location, but we need to see if we can acquire it. All of that's going on right now, and we'll see how it comes out. we'll see how it comes out. And links to all of what's been mentioned will be in the description as usual. Bernardo did the 2022 Nobel Prize disprove so-called local realism. Why or why not?

Starting point is 00:08:33 And then Tim, you'll respond afterward. I can only speak for my own perspective because in foundations of physics, you can find people espousing any position with this regard. Some think it disproved nothing. Some think it disproved only loc regard. Some think it disproved nothing. Some think it disproved only locality. Some think it disproved physical realism. Some think it disproved both. My personal position is that it did disprove not only locality, but physical realism. And I say physical realism because I'm a realist. I just don't think that reality as it is in itself is amenable to description by physical quantities. So I think physicality is the result of measurement, but there is an objective thing that is measured. It's just not amenable to physical description.

Starting point is 00:09:19 I think that has been proven. Physical realism in particular, I mean, everybody talks about Bell inequalities, but there are Tony Leggett's inequalities as well from his paper in Foundations of Physics 2003. And some of those inequalities that have been experimentally shown now to be the case, they sort of zero in on physical realism independent of locality.

Starting point is 00:09:47 And those inequalities have been shown to be the case. So, you know, large classes of non-local hidden variables theories have been refuted. I mean, based on those experiments alone, you could say, well, Bohmian mechanics is still in the race. But there are so many other excellent reasons to get rid of, to not even well bohmian mechanics is still in the race but there are so many other excellent reasons to get rid of to not even consider bohmian mechanics like it doesn't have a relativistic extension and arguably any relativistic extension of bohmian mechanics would destroy the the the particle nature the marble like nature of particles in Bohmian mechanics, and extend everything back to fields. So, yeah, I think physical realism and locality are both disproven

Starting point is 00:10:33 unless one is prepared to entertain sometimes grotesque theoretical fantasies. All right, Professor. My response? That was silly. I mean, it's just that what he said was just silly. How could you have a theory? You have actually several theories. The GRW theory will predict the results of these experiments. The many worlds theory will predict the results of these experiments insofar as you can understand it. a pilot wave theory whether you're using particles or fields you can have part you know a pilot wave theory using fields if you prefer them that'll predict the results of these experiments they're all non-local theories the experiments refute locality how could they how could a physical experiment refute whatever i don't know what you mean by physical realism that there's a physical world how could you do that if all of those theories can describe the laboratory in purely physical terms, can give you dynamics for the things in purely or physical realism, whatever you mean by that, because they're predicted by clear physical theories. So that's stupid.

Starting point is 00:11:53 That's just stupid. It's all it refutes. It's just completely stupid. I'm sorry. Let me finish. You have non-local theories like a pilot wave theory that's clearly non-local, collapse theory that's clearly non-local, they predict these results. Period. So that's just stupid.

Starting point is 00:12:13 Okay, hold on. Professor, you're finished? Yeah. Okay. Kurt, I'm not sure I want to do this. Somebody who already starts by saying this is just silly, when 80% of the community takes these statements seriously this is a non physicist let's

Starting point is 00:12:32 start from that no not not physical research who did not know the Nobel Prize last year so if that's how he's going to behave I'll stop right now good I might we just we started with'll stop right now. Good. I'm not going to do this. I love you, man. I really love you. But this is not an appropriate start. This is not. There's no sense of collegiality or respect.

Starting point is 00:12:59 I'm up for a hard engagement, but not an engagement whose first word is, this is just silly. No, I was responding to you. I have no respect for you, sir. Okay. I'm going to leave. I love you, man. I really didn't want this, but this is not something I am willing to do. There is no sense of professional cordiality or respect in this.

Starting point is 00:13:25 And he's repeating things that are just stupid. To say that the many worlds theory explains the results of these experiments is a grotesque theoretical fantasy. So I'm not going to participate in this. Ciao, buddy. So I'm sorry. Maybe you can interview us separately, but I'm not going to interact with this individual. You're the one who started it. Okay.

Starting point is 00:13:49 You started with this thing like theoretical fantasies. You started with the insulting language. And I'm not going to sit here and listen to it and not give the truth. Okay, Kurt. Don't know what you're talking about. I'll keep in touch with you. Okay, and the truth is a bunch of things you said are true. Take care, man. Love you. Razor blades are like diving boards.

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Starting point is 00:14:45 business. So that means no plastics, no subscriptions, no proprietary blades, and no planned obsolescence. It's also extremely affordable. The Henson razor works with the standard dual edge blades that give you that old school shave with the benefits of this new school tech. It's time to say no to subscriptions and yes to a razor that'll last you a lifetime. Visit hensonshaving.com slash everything. If you use that code, you'll get two years worth of blades for free. Just make sure to add them to the cart. Plus 100 free blades when you head to h-e-n-s-o-n-s-h-a-v-i-n-G dot com slash everything and use the code everything. All right, well, that was rather unfortunate. Sometimes there are clashes between ideas, sometimes between personalities,

Starting point is 00:15:36 sometimes there are misrekenings, sometimes misunderstandings. This just happens and is part of the process. Both Tim and Bernardo said it was okay to air this, and so there we have it. It was my understanding that Tim was saying that the ideas proposed by Bernardo were silly, rather than Bernardo himself, and I hope that both parties can come to see this as a mere misconstruence, a mistranslation, and the floor to resolving this is open, the door is open, the theories of everything door is open, if both would like to come on again. Certainly both will be coming on individually, so Tim Modlin will be coming on in a few months. And there's a new system here on tow where you can leave a question

Starting point is 00:16:08 by typing the word query with a colon and then the questions. This applies to any episode, like I mentioned, like if you want to leave a question for Lou Elizondo when he comes on next, if you want to leave a question for Jonathan Oppenheim or Edward Frankel. I've also started this tradition where on every episode or every other episode, I'll highlight a comment and read it because, hey, if you're like me, then you don't have many people to speak to about these subjects outside of conversing online and digitally. This is my way of not only highlighting a certain comment, but also encouraging the community that we've established.

Starting point is 00:16:37 The last time it was Bijou's comment about there being no wave function of the universe, at least from one point of view, but from another point of view, there does exist a wave function of the universe. This time, I want to tell you about a comment not attached to a podcast, but attached to a post. And to explain that, I'm going to just read the post for you so that you have some context. Dear friends, as I sit down to write this, I want to express my deepest gratitude. Your support, engagement, and the passion for the Theories of Everything podcast have been the driving force behind this endeavor. We've built a community that shares a fervor for science and philosophy.

Starting point is 00:17:10 And for that, I'm eternally grateful. Truly. Despite our 240,000 subscribers and the vibrant community that we've built, the past 11 months have been challenging. Behind the scenes, our channel has been grappling with financial struggles. Behind the scenes, our channel has been grappling with financial struggles. Our content, deeply rooted in science and philosophy, unfortunately falls into a category that doesn't fetch the highest ad revenue on YouTube, to say the least. This isn't just our struggle. Even Sabine Hossenfelder recently mentioned a similar issue.

Starting point is 00:17:45 During 2023, I've been working harder than ever, which I didn't think was possible, often at the expense of personal and family time. The effort that goes into each Toe episode is immense. I pour my heart and soul into researching and studying for each episode to ensure that we deliver the most in-depth and high-quality content, forcing myself to watch myself even, which is extremely cringeworthy as you can imagine, so that I can improve on each episode. Despite my love for studying for Toe's and the joy I derive from interacting with our guests and community, the financial returns have been far from promising. This letter is a discussion or disclosure by me on what's been going on behind the scenes at Toe. Our struggles have been exacerbated by issues with sponsorships, which were once a significant part of our revenue. Despite the promise of good returns, the sponsorships recently turned out to be a financial setback. Unforeseen expenses such as

Starting point is 00:18:29 poor deals that we weren't aware of until later, writing scripts, dealing with the sponsor intermediaries, acquiring products for review that were sent across the border, and then paying our dedicated editor have strained our resources. There were even instances where we unknowingly did sponsored spots for free, believing that we were being paid. That's right, for free. This is unheard of. However, I take full responsibility for these mishaps, and I sincerely apologize for any disruption they may have caused to our content. I've had and still have no podcasting mentors nor connections. Zero. Everything's been built from the ground up. I've learned some hard lessons along the way. There were several times when we interviewed large names and they didn't so much as tweet about Toh, despite them promoting

Starting point is 00:19:16 other podcasters. I would be disingenuous if I were to pretend I'm not a tad bit hurt, but that's just how it goes. Luckily, the depth and breadth of our content have always been a point of pride at Theories of Everything. In fact, the guests themselves invariably remark on air and off air how this is the most thorough, the most in-depth of any conversation with them out there. Wonderfully, even the comment sections seem to echo this sentiment. Like, man, oh man, that's fantastic. I believe in quality over quantity, at least for Toh, and work to ensure that every single episode is not just informative with meticulous timestamps, but also thought-provoking and engaging. Hearing from you and the community about how Toh has

Starting point is 00:19:57 ignited intellectual curiosity, changed lives, inspired you, helped you through your own dark nights, and provided a platform for discussions that might otherwise be out of reach fuels my commitment. It's an honor and a privilege. I too know what it feels like to be lonely in this space of physics, math, AI, consciousness, without anyone to talk to who doesn't look at you like a nerdy quantum quirkster, other than, say, virtually. To keep Toh alive and thriving, we're working on several projects. So for instance, number one, we're developing an artificial intelligence tool to recover old audio and improve the sound of episodes,

Starting point is 00:20:34 like the old Chomsky episodes. Number two, there's a lost lecture of Stephen Wolfram's from Mindfest that we're recovering the audio from by developing, again, an AI tool. And this tool should prove helpful for future podcasts as well. Number three, we're recovering the audio from by developing, again, an AI tool. And this tool should prove helpful for future podcasts as well. Number three, we're working on translating our episode into different languages to reach a wider audience. You'll now see there are several accurately captioned languages.

Starting point is 00:20:55 Number four, I would like to do more in-person interviews. Number five, I would like to do compilation episodes on specific topics from several guests. So usually you have one guest speaking on several topics. What about if we just said, hey, does quantum mechanics give rise to consciousness? Yes or no? And then we have every guest on that subject. Or hey, what is the physics of free will? And we have every guest on that subject. Most channels of our size have teams, but Toe doesn't. It's just me and the editor. And we each work more than full time. I would be remiss if I didn't mention the darling angel that is my wife, of course.

Starting point is 00:21:28 Without her, there would be no Toh. There may not even be a Kurt. You'll see many other YouTubers interviewing the same people, and that's because it pays significantly more to go with what works. On Toh, I've purposefully chosen not to interview high-profile guests that I feel like are featured on the podcast circuit repeatedly. Now, the positive side of interviewing people repeatedly is that it opens you up to massive connections and influence. But on the deleterious side, I feel like it would sacrifice a modicum of character in my likely wrong opinion. Instead, I've opted to bring hidden

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Starting point is 00:22:44 financially in terms of the emotional support, knowing there are people who will voluntarily underestimate how your support keeps Toe and myself and my wife going. Both financially, in terms of the emotional support, knowing there are people who will voluntarily donate something that they could have spent in innumerable ways somewhere else for no other reason than they want to help out. If you already support Toe and want to increase your donation, then of course we would more than welcome that as well. Thank you again for being part of the Toh community. Your continued backing and engagement mean the world to us. Here's to exploring even more theories of everything together. Warm regards, Kurt Jaimungal. P.S. If you're ever curious about what future projects there are of Toh, you can always message me with specific questions. Me and or my wife read every

Starting point is 00:23:21 single comment and try to respond when we can. There's also a day in the life of a hectic time at Toen. Luckily, it's no longer anywhere near as shambolic. Despite the turmoil of the past 11 months, they've simultaneously been the most rapturous of my life. It's a blessing. Thank you dearly. Man, thank you. Thank you so much. After the posting of that letter, there's been a flurry of support, not only from you, from the audience, but also from other podcasters. Coincidentally enough, Theo Vaughn, a channel with over 2 million subscribers, just talked about this same issue happening to him on his channel with being cheated over sponsored deals and also waiting approximately a year before saying anything publicly because we're not allowed to. Here's a 65 second snippet from September 2023 on Theo Vaughn's channel. Link in the description. So yeah, you can keep that money, but you can't

Starting point is 00:24:11 get me to shut up, man. You know how many other podcasters wanted to say this shit right now, but can't say it? The way that people are able to cheat and lie and manipulate the system. Fuck. It's just fucking kind of sad, man. And yeah, but I just wanted to speak up for myself, man. I've waited a year to speak up for myself. They put us through so much bullshit and I don't know if there's other people over there that did it too. And maybe we'll get more information. I don't know. Yeah. I wouldn't do that to somebody. And he, they, they did it, man. They did it to, I mean, some of these people's podcasts is all they had, man. And these motherfuckers did

Starting point is 00:24:45 that, bro. So I'm sorry about that. Um, and I'm sorry for them. And yeah, I'm just happy to have a voice for myself. And that's one thing that we built here that, that he had nothing to do with. He had nothing to do with. In fact, he stole on our backs once and I'm not letting these people do it to me two times. So for anybody that had to take that, that sucker deal over there, uh, this, I'm speaking on behalf for all of us, man. Um, cause I know that some of you guys have said to me that you wanted to say some of these same things and notes and the person he's speaking about has nothing to do with toe. I just want to make that clear though. We've gone through what's similar. One comments of the over 500, like, man, this

Starting point is 00:25:23 post alone has more comments on it than when i ask for questions for yosha bach or for noam chomsky like holy moly thank you thank you thank you so much so now the following comes from an email which was precipitated by the youtube community post that i just shared actually it was by my thank you email to this person hi kurt the decision to donate was entirely motivated by gratitude for the great conversations and information your channel has brought me. In terms of feedback, maybe what I value most about Toe is the depth that you're willing to go to for the complex topics. It's clear that you genuinely want to understand the nuances of each and attempt to reconcile with similar and competing ideas. I love that you're willing to bring up the competing theories and complementary views,

Starting point is 00:26:00 even get people to foster many sharing ideas like Michael Levin and Josje Bak, two people I'm a huge fan of. That said, sometimes I feel like you put a bit too much pressure on yourself in terms of preparation. I love that intent, but it struck me as a bit excessive, and I'm sure you're aware for the need for balance and probably agonize over it. Just know that I don't expect you to have an encyclopedic knowledge of decades of some person's work just to adequately interview them. I understand how tricky this balance must be, though. I'm going to comment on that in one moment, but just here's one more that touched my heart. And this one is by James Mackey.

Starting point is 00:26:30 Thank you for all your work. It's meant a great deal to me. In 2015, I was sleeping on sofas, listless and destructive. Now I have my PhD at the London College of Music coming up, and I'm lecturing this year at Durham College, and I'm pleased with who I am today. Much of what I like about myself, I've modeled on the values I see in yourself and your interviewees. Serene, sincere, kind, and concerned.

Starting point is 00:26:52 I found a tremendous consolation in discovering the academic community with you over the last five years or so. You've been a role model and introduced me to several many other role models. The comments that I'm going to start reading at the end of the episodes aren't always just effusive thank you comments to me. They're generally going to be about other podcasts and ideas and theories, but because of the preceding YouTube community posts that I just mentioned, I thought it was apt to talk about this. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you so much. Also with regard to the pressure and the reason why I study so hard, it's not actually because I want to have the best quote-unquote interview. It's because the goal of the Theories of Everything podcast is in part, in large part, for me to understand

Starting point is 00:27:29 every theory. And in order to do so, I study super hard because I'm speaking with the author of a theory and I don't want to waste this opportunity. In other words, the production of a podcast is the side effect of me just trying to understand theories, particularly theories of everything, the largest theories. So that's not something I've made clear. And I hope this helps demystify the reason for why am I putting on so much pressure to study for each guest. It's not just to have a great interview, because maybe I could study half as much or even 20% as much. It's because I want to understand the theories. There's also playlists. So if you want, you can look in the YouTube description. There's several playlists for Toe. You can click on that so you can go through episodes one by one if you like. Every

Starting point is 00:28:08 episode on Toe is edited so there's no large spikes in the volume or loud jumps with music so that people can listen as they sleep. Because I know I used to listen to podcasts as I sleep, and I would dislike when they would just quote someone, and then the levels were obscene, and it would wake me, and then I couldn't fall back asleep because I'm worried it's not going to happen again. That won't happen for Toe. If you personally want to message me to get in contact for whatever reason, for sponsorships, for donations, for support, just telling me what Toe has meant to you, if that's what you want, then you can email me directly at Toe, so T-O-E at IndieFilmTO.com. So that's I-N-D-I-E-F-I-L-M-T-O.com. Toe at indiefilmto.com. Thank you so much for all

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Theories of Everything with Curt Jaimungal - Tim Maudlin Λ Bernardo Kastrup: Non-locality, Bell's Theorem

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