Therapuss with Jake Shane - Session 119: Kacey Musgraves

Episode Date: May 7, 2026

I feel as if I’m in the presence of greatness…. Thanks to Depop for sponsoring this episode! https://www.depop.com/ Thank you to Poppi for sponsoring today’s episode! https://drinkpoppi.com/ Tell Me What's Wrong at ⁠ passthatpuss.com Follow Kacey & Stream “Middle of Nowhere” OUT NOW! https://kaceymusgraves.com Follow Me! Instagram | @passthatpuss TikTok | @octopusslover8 Listen to "THERAPUSS" Spotify: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/1BHDdC0OVuHqZ706FobfOF ⁠⁠Apple Podcasts: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/therapuss-with-jake-shane/id1723626781⁠⁠ Amazon Podcasts: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/93117357-1f23-46e1-8f26-88f5182a68b8/therapuss-with-jake-shane⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi, do you want to touch my crystal? Yeah. It gets rid of, it encourages trust and builds positivity and exerts healthy, emotional release. Okay. You need that. Wait, you totally need that. Well, we have Casey Mottscraves on the show today. Yay, that's our fave.

Did you just buy this? Yesterday. I was crying, and I walked into a crystal. shop. You're not well. No. I'm really not. Are you okay? No, I'm really not. Why? I don't know. I've just been twisted up here. Why? It's not seamless, like of many things. You're just depressed. Majorly. Well, maybe. It's time to start meds again. Yep. I've been screaming it from the rooftop for months. No, I took meds for like five years and then I stopped. Well, because Well, Bouture was giving you a panic attack. It was making me so anxious. But that's, I pretty, I pretty, you. I'm pretty, you know,

I'm not sure that's like a common thing people have. Really? Yes, my psychiatrist is trying to give it to me. Well, it's like a stimulant. So you're the, why would you need that? Right. So it just like wasn't helping my anxiety at all. So.

I'm pretty sure it's for depression. Yeah, I mean, you can treat it for both. And I have both. So, but. So I stopped. I mean, nobody hears about this. And then I'm going to, I'm going to have to start again soon because I'm just like, who you're not well.

Bumpy. Yeah. But I. I'm on Louvox. What's that? It's for OCD. I think you have that. You think I have OCD?

You think about the same thing consistently and you can't drop it. But I don't have like rituals like you. Well, it can manifest in different ways. Right. I probably have everything, honestly. Probably. What's your favorite Casey song? Well, I have to think about it.

You love butterflies. Love butterflies. Love space cowboy. You showed me that one. I showed you space cowboy. You showed you space cowboy. I think space cowboy. Or you like re-broad it to my life.

I think that's my right now. That's my favorite. But like rainbow. Oh, you love rainbow. Like, maybe it was the best. I talked to her. And, um, justified. I like that song.

Oh, you love justified. Uh, Mary. Do you remember when we listen to Deeper Well in the backyard? In the backyard. What is that other one we love? Uh, uh, uh, come to me and drop. And drop your bags. What's like, you'll be fine.

And I'll help you unpack. Nothing to be scared of. Uh-huh. But what's the other one? The, the architect. We love that one. That one's really good. Because Casey just like really is so.

She just says things. And you're like, damn, yeah. That's what I told her. Really? Yes. Like she just says it's so simple and you're like, wow. Because she, I said, I think she was put on this earth to like just write about the world. Right.

And like the simple things that like, you're like, oh damn. She like, she makes the simple thing so extraordinary. Deeper while is like the best song I've ever heard in my life. Yeah, it's. Like when that came out and you were like put it on right now in the car, I was like. I think Casey writes like as. as if it's a Bible for how to live life. A thousand percent.

Mary Go Round is the greatest song of all time. The greatest wordplay of all time. Like of all time. Trish showed me that song. Trish loves Casey. Years and years and years ago. Yeah, it's just so good. We have to see her on tour.

Have to. Okay, so I'm obsessed with happier grocer. Really? Yeah. What do you get there? The gluten-free turkey wrap. Oh. I have it every single day.

I still, by the way, like I know that I grew up here and like I've lived here now for like eight months. I have no idea where I am ever. Have you had the smoothies from Happier? No. Are they good? Yeah, Kennedy really likes them. I've only had one once.

Which? You know what you need to try? What? Tom's juice. Really? It's that fucking good. What do they have? And you like juice, by the way.

You always want juice. What do they have? Am I wrong? Don't you always want like some type of refreshing drink? No, what do they have? Juice. It's supposed to use. But like, do they have snacks?

No, just juice. Nothing else. No food? Just juice. What do you get? The stores, the size of this table. Do they have smoothies? Just juice.

Okay. And is it good? It's amazing. Okay. Well, I'll get it after. I'll get it in a little. They have kiwi juice. Ew.

They have watermelon juice I had this morning. Okay. They have, well, he calls it coconut juice, but it's coconut water. They have orange grapefruit. They have mango juice, which is insane. Sorry, just spit everywhere. I saw. They have.

They have passion fruit juice, but it's literally $10 for this big of juice. So the passion fruit is less juice than the other juices? Mm-hmm. It's like small for some reason. Okay. Continue. Kiwi, did I say that yet? That was the first one you said, which did not tickle my pickle.

Well, it's amazing. So, like, I don't know why I'm convincing you. No, they have a million different juices. Like, just fucking go with me one time. Okay. Do you like my haircut? Yeah, I do, actually. I was noticing it.

Okay. I just fully lied. I didn't notice. I don't notice my hair was chopped. No. I don't notice boys' cuts. Yeah, that's valid. Do you like my hair?

Yeah, it looks great. It's so long. Louise and I are getting aqua gold facials tomorrow. I want that. I got microneedling like a month ago, and I thought it made my skin look amazing. At the Brightwood Clinic. At the Brightwood Clinic.

I didn't get mine at the Brightwood Clinic. I got mine with Ali. And she gives you your whole thing? My whole thing. Well, your skin looks great. I get a facial with her once a month. Uh-huh. And then we just recently did microneedling in PR,

PRP under my eyes. What is the, can, right, what do PRP under my eyes? But you've, you're gonna be a little bruised for like a few days.

No, I can't have that. Yeah, no. It, like, honestly took me out of commission for like, remember when I got to Coachella

and my eyes were like low-key black and blue. No, I don't remember that at all. Well, there was like, black and blue, like on this one eye and it had been like a week.

I was the best Coachella of all time. Oh my God, it was so fun. I've never had more fun. I've never had more fun of, because I was like, so down bad.

I don't think you understand. Like, you didn't hear one word come out of my mouth on Sunday, did you? Oh my God, no, I didn't. I literally couldn't speak. Do you remember I got a Benadryl IV? Yeah. What did I say? No, you guys, this was actually the most insane thing I, no, like all of you, like,

I've never experienced anything like this. So Bev was over and we got IVs and Jake was like, I want the Benadryl, but I feel like you get Benadryl in your IVs every time. I do. Something about this was different. She puts the Benadryl push in. All of a sudden, he starts speaking nonsense. Like actual nonsense, like words that didn't exist.

He started like mumbling and dumbling, whatever. Goes, you need to help me upstairs. He dives into bed. I don't hear from him for the next 24 hours. You woke up at like 5 p.m. the next day. No, I didn't. Or you went to bed. It was like 6 p.m.

And you didn't wake up until like 11 the next day. I started seeing people. It was super scary. I'm coming out with my, with my own skew of conscious gummias, and I have them here. I'm so excited. I mean, Holy fuck. Yeah, they're good, right?

This is the best by far. By far. By, respectfully, of course, by far. And this one, it's amazing. It's amazing. And it still has, like, that marshmallow-y thing that the wild and free ones have. But then it's, like, the taste of the rainbow kind of one. And sour.

Mm-hmm. Oh, hell. Mm-hmm. That's really good. Well, me and Casp had drank. drinks. Uh-huh. And we had four martinis each. Oh, that TikTok, you sent me of the martini killed me.

Oh my God, it was disgusting. It literally looks like green dish water. It said you're having the worst day of your life and this is the martini. You get it's in a plastic cup. And it's like dirt water green. And it's the Beyonce sound that's like, so now what are you going to say to me that you whatever? I might you know.

Anyways, I have four martinis each. So obviously I'm drunk, like blackout. Then Pass invited a few people to join us. and we were so fucked up, honestly, like really, really drunk. Like would I have had fun? Yeah, you would have had fun. Then Peyton chose out alone. Honestly, no idea where she came from.

She just spawned. Ryan also spawns out of nowhere in a tuxedo. Uh-huh. With our vlog camera. And he vlogged his entire. Did you watch it yet? No, I haven't watched any of the footage yet. But he apparently said he sat down at the table and took the camera out of his pocket and was

just like, hey, everyone. put the camera down and everyone's head snapped and was like, are you vlogging? Because like, why would Ryan vlog? When we went to the nines to dance a bit. Was it dancing? Yeah, it was really crowded. Don't they like play piano there? No, it like turns into like fun vibes.

Like it's like, no, jazz bar. It's like a DJ in tables. Oh, okay. Then we left. We on a limo. We went to Times Square. And like I looked at my phone and it was like I had like at least seven. drinks at this point. Why? What do you do in Times Square? I don't even know. I don't know how they do it.

I get over. I've already had a full day yesterday. They're all like they still have Lolas over them. Their mascara is running down their face. I'm like, oh my God, I've literally entered the case of what? What else should we talk about? You're depressed? Did you just glitch? No, yes. You're depressed. You're going on meds. We love Casey. Love Casey. When is she going on tour? Did she announce that yet? I think she did. I'm so sad that we missed her weekend too. Me too. I would like to go to weekend two next year.

Was we get too better than would. It always is and it's like. Weekend two is always just a little more chill. Yeah. And like I could do some chill next time. No, I had so much. But like I will say like the only issue about Coachella for me is like I can barely do one day of Coachella, let alone too. Like I will never make it to day three.

Ever. Okay. Well, love you. I'm so excited for this episode. I'm deaf going to listen. into this one. Oh, yeah, real quickly, Julie and Peyton tried to give me shit for not watching their vlog the other day.

Wait, I didn't try to give you shit. I just said watch it because, like, you're going to think it's really funny. You don't watch my show. I know. I actually thought about that as I said it. I was like, wait, he doesn't want to watch because, like, I don't. Do you have extensions in right now? Yeah, that's what I was trying to tell you.

It's so long. They look really amazing. Right? Your dog died. Oh. He did. Are you okay? Well, that's definitely adding to my depression.

I think so, too. It definitely is. Well, maybe he died and his dying wishes for you to get on meds. Maybe. Maybe. Can I say, though, every time I'm worried about a situation, you handle it so much better than I think you would. No, I handle the situations that, like, don't deserve to be dramatic very poorly, and I handle, like, very dramatic situations well. Julia, me too.

It's just us. It's just us. We're the same. We are. Okay, well, I love you. As much as we don't want to be. I love you. I love you.

You were saying, though, right before this, we were like, I am so scared because you're you were like over analyzing it that like it's boring you were scared of it being boring. Yeah. There's actually like this quote that I wanted to read you that I think just like describes it. It was a review of Golden Hour, but it describes I think how you write and your storytelling just entirely. And it says Casey Musgrave sings simply about the world as if she's the first person to notice and you're the first one she's telling. Oh, I like that. Yeah.

Yeah. And that's and I think that is to me the beauty of your. music because you describe these feelings with such simplicity that are so hard to figure out. Yeah. Yeah. It's just, I think, like, I find a lot of awe, like, in the human experience. And for me, like, I do feel, like, all the inspiration that I find is usually within the most mundane.

Like, it's, like, in the everyday, like, for me, it's not, like, this grandiose, far-reaching poetic, like, sense of something. It's, like, it always hits me in the most, like, banal kind of like mediocre like life moments and i feel like that's where like so much of the beauty lies you know of being a human or what what song do you remember that hate like do you remember a moment that was so mundane that hit you and you're like oh this this song came out of that i mean so many of them like i feel like i write my best when i've had a lot of time to just like live life and you know what i mean and i'm not really like on any kind of like time time constraint

I can just kind of like live life and let the ideas like build back up. But you know like, oh, what a world. Like that was one of them. Yeah. He breathes deeply. I have to. Where were you when that idea struck? I mean, I think I was probably somewhere in Nashville, but I just remember like I was like falling in love.

I was in this place of extreme wonder and like, you know, rose colored glasses. And I was also, I think when you fall in love you like you're, you see the world in this kind of refreshed new beautiful light. again you know you're like oh my god there's like you forget like they're shooting stars out there there's right jellyfish that glow like there's like bioluminescence like we live in a trippy world and we just get so here you know that we kind of forget the magic exists oh what a world indeed it's a crazy world too though y'all yeah it really it really is but i think you're like you make real fucking music and i don't want this to just be me complains you no i think that it should be I have three beverages now over here,

which I do love that we both were on the creation time this morning. And you know what? It came to me. I was like literally right before you came. I was like, I'm just going to order one. And then you walked in with one. And I was like,

and that's the mundane. That's the mundane. But your song that really, I would say, like describes that for me as happy and sad. Yeah. I feel that all the time. Because I never knew how to express that feeling.

Everyone, I would be like, Everyone would always be like you look look around you life is so good I'm like I can't because I'm I'm so scared of it becoming bad again Yeah having it hurt that much harder or knowing that like happiness is fleeting the good doesn't last forever like even the most beautiful thing Dyes or God it's so like morbid sounding but it is true and it's hard to not get caught up in that when you're experiencing such a high because you're like oh is there a low that's gonna be next yeah Yeah yeah yeah yeah it's real and sometimes that happiness it's like almost so beautiful that you're like,

like it brings you to tears because you're like, do I deserve this? You know what I mean? That's how I feel all the time. Yeah. How have you learned to understand that you do deserve it? Oh, I mean, therapy, I think getting older, like you realize you're like, I do deserve this thing that I really am working hard

towards or I do deserve to be in a really reciprocal, beautiful relationship, you know? Like, and I can, like, I can, like, stand in that and say, like, I deserve that. I do. I feel like, you know, I mean, everyone does though, you know.

I feel like your 20s, at least for me right now, are a lot about like reconciling. I don't know if you felt the same way. Like reconciling with like who you were, how you grew up. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

totally. It's that exploration period of like, or you're examining kind of like the building blocks of who, like, or yeah, who you are. And why are you like that? You know what I mean?

Or maybe like how your parents are or like, how your childhood was. And it's your chance to, like examine that and um i think like make changes or like you know decide is that is that actually how i do i align with this right yeah yeah yeah i wanted to talk to you about follow your arrow because that was actually my first introduction to you when i was in seventh grade oh cute oh wow damn okay where's my cane i definitely need the eye cream at no i heard it and i never heard i just had never heard a country singer sing about gay people before?

Like when you put, was there any hesitation to put that out or were you just like, fuck it? I mean, mostly just like fuck it. It's interesting because I wrote that song that was like, I think the last addition to that record. And I remember bringing it into the label and I was like, so here's the album and I'm adding the song. And yeah, I mean, they were just definitely like, yeah, no. This is gonna, you're gonna be roasted for this.

Like, it's gonna go down in flames and here's all these reasons as to why like you shouldn't put this out. and I just, it honestly made me want to do it even more. Like, don't tell me that I should, you know what I mean? Like, that's reverse psychology. But, yeah, I was just like, okay, well, then if it goes down in flames, and it's for something that I really truly believed in. And, you know, like, when you really look at the bones of country music, like,

it's a genre built on storytelling, you know, it's real stories. And, you know, at least that's my favorite kind of country music. So I just feel like it's a natural fit that it would include, include like just parts of real life like like the like historic country music talks about stuff that's like it's typically sometimes left of center like talks about heartbreak and just things that are you know what I mean like can be a bit painful or very real you know what I mean and so I'm kind of like this is country to me to like talk about gay shit gay as hell shit yeah pretty much but that was and I think that that's what you've done for a lot of people you've really helped translate I feel like

for a long time people thought country was this very almost sort of specifically very straight thing and you were kind of like no yeah country can can hit somebody like in their heart and you don't have to be like living on a farm and like you know to appreciate it or whatever um and i feel like one of the best compliments that i've ever received like in my entire career is that like you know someone said basically what you said of saying like I always felt like country music was this party that I could you know I grew up in a small town and I always identified with country but I just felt like it was a party that I was never invited to and hearing your music made me feel like I was finally invited to the party and I was like okay that's that means so much more than any like you know radio

chart number or like you know um but yeah the song ended up getting banned by country radio did it really and yeah I'm like it's just funny and like I saw something about this the other day about, you know, there was an article about, like, liberal and more the conservative people in country music or whatever. And I think people tend to forget that the idols that we have from country music, like, we're thinking, like, Waylon Jennings, Willie Nelson, Loretta Lynn, like, they were outlaws. Like, they were liberal. Like, Loretta Lynn was out here singing about birth control when it was, like, a very controversial taboo subject. You know what I mean? I think we just forget that there is a large part of country music that we love that is very

very outlaw and that means speaking up for the marginalized like subjects and things you know yeah a thousand percent and i think you've done that so beautifully thank you i feel like i've heard you talk about this before but like how do you deal with like writers block and stuff because i feel like you've i've heard you speak about this before i just like i really try not to force it um i mean and the writing process is different for every single person some people probably write like every day like i can't even imagine that But like in my phone, I have in my notes app, I just have like a running little basket of little ideas and song titles and things like that. And so like I feel like as I'm living life and kind of, you know, just getting to experience

like just being human, then naturally I'm just inspired, oh, that's a song title or like I see something somewhere or like a thought comes to me. And I'm like, okay, that's a twist on a thought or a lyric or something. And I put it in my notes app. And then I just kind of come back to it later when I have time. Like right now I'm promoting a record. Like it's, you know, there's all this inertia around that. I don't really have the creative need to start a new song.

I have some ideas, though, that I'm like, I really want to write that. And they'll just, it's almost like it finds the time to be written or something. Are any of the songs on the new record? Can you remember a time where you wrote it down in your notes app and it became then the song? All of them. Yeah, all of them. I mean, and I, so I have this never-ending, like, note document that goes, I mean, it's years long. and occasionally I'll email it to myself

so I'm like God forbid I'll lose this but yeah I mean I have references to all the ideas in there at some point they usually start out as a song title and then yeah and then I figure out what is the

how can I flip this or what is the angle of this idea yeah I loved coyote oh thanks it's kind of a creepy little it's creepy it's creepy it's creepy what is it because I'm like listening to it I'm trying to figure out what it's about what is it about to you

A large part of healing, getting older, and kind of getting into my like 30s is figuring out why am I attracted to emotionally unavailable people, like emotionally avoidance. Like if you know about the attachment theory. I'm vaguely familiar. It's like, you know, we all for different reasons have these attachment styles that we're kind of like we were hardwired with like from childhood or whatever. Like there's several different types like secure attachment. is the goal, right?

But you can be anxiously attached person or an avoidant attached person. And that kind of dictates how you kind of move in relationships and how you, the choices you make the people that you choose. And it's just interesting, like typically I would say when I'm like not secure, I'm like err on the side of the anxious attached person. And so I've typically chosen people that are avoidance. So there's always like a chaser in a relationship. Typically in these imbalances, there's like a power struggle right, and someone's like the one pulling the other person closer, trying to advance the relationship, like, you know, desperately wanting that closeness.

And then the avoidant feels suffocated by closeness. And the anxious attachment is the person pull it. And the anxious attacher feels like, oh my God, this person's going to leave, you know, or I'm going to do something and it's going to ruin this relationship or whatever. And it's funny because the closer that the people, the two get, it just like the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the pattern just keeps going and the other person starts pulling out because they're like, oh, I'm going to, I'm going to feel claustrophobic in this. Like, there's a whole thing about it, but like, like somewhere along the way that person was hardwired with the thought that like, to be really loved and to be close means

that I lose my autonomy. I lose my freedom. And so I don't, I push it away. You know what I mean? And I've always gone for people like that. And so, you know. Oh, so you're, okay. So this is like.

Sometimes I'm like, I'm slow. So I think I'm just like No, no, no, you're on the spectrum. Sorry. I'm like, no, no, no. Well, it was a long ass point. The Adderall has not kicked in yet. But like I'm circling to like I saw a couple of coyotes on my property one day in Nashville,

which is strange to see them in the daytime and I saw there was two. And I was like, because I was like, what is that? And I have these little, these knocks. I got my knocks out. And I was just like, oh, those are some coyotes. And I was like, okay, that's a song title. There's something in there. A coyote is like.

like this beautiful creature, but they're like, and they kind of edge on like city's edges. They like they're nearby, but they don't want to get close. And if you get too close, like you might get bitten, you know what I mean, or whatever. Wow. And so it just kind of reminded me of like being in a relationship with someone who is like terrified of closeness. Basically, I'm just like likening this. It's sort of a metaphor, you know, what I mean?

Like being in, you know, seeing this person that you're attracted to and that you want closeness with, but, you know, they just, they just, they, just kind of can't give it to you, you know? And so that's just kind of where the song came from. But in a sense, in general, just kind of examining like, what is it in me that's picking that type of person? Right. Several times over. And like, why? Like, why am I attracted to that? You know what I mean? It's, there's so much to it. It's really interesting. You should read. Have you? You should. You should try reading some. I really should. I got 12 pages into my book last night and I fell asleep. Yeah. I tried. That's honestly the best we were talking about.

about like taking supplements to sleep. Fucking put a, read a page. We're like to say Larazepam? No, just read. I feel like it'll put your ass to sleep so quick. It really did last night. I was like, oh, man, it was giving me anxiety. I was like, I got to put this down.

Put the books down. Put the book down. Hey, that's better than a doom scroll, though. Doom scrolling is the bane of my existence. But it like, yeah, it's like, let me just ingest all this shit right before I close my eyes. Yeah, great idea. It wakes me up, though. In the middle of the night.

It like, no, like when I'm doom scrolling, like I try to do it as like a form of reading, but it just, I'm never going to sleep. Oh, no. I get in the craziest warm holes at night. Like, the other day, I was like, oh, yeah, I really should go to bed. Let me look up all the different types of aliens there are apparently in the universe. Do you believe in aliens? Yeah, I really do. Okay.

Can you tell me why? Because my mom is like such a skeptic and I'm really similar to my mom, I would say. You are a skeptic as well? I believe I like take what my mom says kind of. Like I really like when she says something, she says it with such like conviction. Conviction that I'm like, oh, you're right. So do you feel in general, this is interesting.

I want to know like do you feel like the world is life existence is where you can all see, where you can see it? Or do you think that it extends past that? Is there a supernatural side that you feel like exists that you can't see or do you feel Like it's more so just this is what it is. It's right here in front of us or it's not. I think I'm like, this is what it is because I can't wrap my head around the fact that there be more to that.

Yeah. It's like hard for me. I'm such like a facts person. Yeah. Like literal. Yeah. I'm like, well, what do you? And I, like, do you believe like when there's like flying saucers over?

Like, do you believe those are aliens ships? Like that. Um, I guess you haven't seen the Instagram I just created for my weird sightings. You, oh, you believe in this. I'm done. No, like, okay, let me just check the follower account because guys, there's, apparently there's a lot of believers out there, too. So night before last, I was like, because I really do have really interesting,

unexplainable things that I see all the time for years. And I was like, I'm going to freaking start an Instagram page for this. So I did. And it already has, it has 25. 1,000 followers. It's just funny that we're talking about this because I literally the other day there was all these like all these news pickups about the fact that I had posted these videos of these orbs that are lights, these really strange lights that me and my one of my managers saw on a plane the other night. And I'm just seeing weird stuff all the damn time. So it just like finds me,

I swear. But also the more you look for it, the more you see, you know? And I feel like once I started noticing it was like probably around like 2012 it just took off i've seen the crazy like if i really did tell people like all the things that i've seen they'd be like she's lock her away like she's bat shit what's the craziest thing you've seen i mean lots of different um like unidentified flying things um and it started in mexico like back in like 2012 um and i was with other people um was not high, I was not drunk, nothing. And that was just this whole crazy thing that I can't even wrap my brain around, like, what it could have been. And then literally four days later, I was back at my house in Nashville, me and my boyfriend at the time, and we were like watching family guy. It was like 10 p.m.

And we were out on the screen porch. And I, out of the corner of my eye, kind of above the neighborhood, I saw these two massive balls of fire that were like, it looked like flaming suns. Like at first, thought, oh, is that something on fire? But we ran down the street and looked. And, yeah, they were just two silent, massive balls of fire that were just sort of slowly, silently, kind of floating, flying, like, above the neighborhood. And we, like, followed them to end the street. And then they just disappeared.

And I was like, okay. Like. And you had someone with you to be like, I saw that shit too. Yeah. And that same person was at the first sighting. And then since then it's just been like, just the weirdest stuff. Yeah. I'm not looking hard enough.

Like I was thinking about this one yesterday as I was flying in, but one time I was flying into California, I can't remember if it was L.A. or if it was like what city it was. But it was daytime. I was flying solo. I was like by myself. I mean, it was on a commercial plane,

but there was, and there were other people, but it was like not a packed flight. And I had the road to myself. And I was just like looking out the window. And maybe about 10 yards away from the plane, just floating like out there was, I can just describe it as like it was like a cobalt blue color like spinning top.

It looked like a spinning top. And it was maybe about the size of like a small car. And I was like, is anyone else seeing this? Like it made me feel insane. And it was just just there was no lights on it or anything. It was just a spinning blue top. And I was like, what the hell? Do you have a photo of it?

No, I didn't. No, a lot of these things I don't have photos of. I think I was just like, when you see something like that, you're like, holy shit. But the other night, I did catch a bunch of videos. of the ones that like me and my manager Bobby saw on this plane ride. Wow. And they were unreal. Like there's just no way you can just like.

There's no way we're alone. I just, I don't know. I mean, I'm just constantly like, I don't think that we are alone. I think that would be kind of wild and also kind of maybe a little bit sad. But I'm just constantly torn as like,

does the government know and they're just hiding it? But also like, do we trust anything the government says anyways? And they're going to use it as an Epstein files distraction anyway. So like, but I'm like, but do they know because the public would there would be a mass freak out religion would collapse like you know what I'm saying like they got yeah I guess so right yeah did you watch the age of disclosure

I haven't okay I haven't I watched what is it okay so it's this movie um I think it's on Amazon and it's with a bunch of ex government employees so my dad my dad is like you and he's like and he's like it is the most insane thing and then my mom is like they are disgruntled ex-government employees. So that's how my mom views it. And she's like, they, like, they're just angry that they, like, aren't working with the government anymore and are like, you know what I mean? So I'm like, oh, who do I believe?

I guess I have to watch it. But I'm so easily swayed. I mean, the problem is, is that now AI exists. So even if I had, like, the most clear, amazing high-res footage of, like, the most unbelievable thing, nobody would believe it anyway. So, like, I kind of have this thought that, like, was AI floated out there? if the government does know some shit and they like knew or i don't know we're aware of think more things coming to light was i i pushed out to just kind of keep us confused so the real stuff could

hide amongst the fake stuff and nobody knows what's real you know what i mean oh god that thought is so scary of like not knowing because a i becoming so it it is becoming real real real yeah it is How has that impacted the music scene for you? It hasn't gotten into my world at all. I mean, I don't fuck with it. But like, also I'm kind of like, does anyone actually think AI music is good? No.

I feel like part of the whole specialness of music is that it came from a human's experience, right? And it's relatable that way. Like anyone can turn out or any machine could turn out like ear candy that is like engineered to be like liked. But I don't think it has the same value, right? Because there's no struggle behind it. No machine can turn out golden hour.

Period. No machine could ever turn out Golden Hour. Ever. Like, it's that, oh my God. Can we talk about Golden Hour? Yeah, sure. That album has like really gotten me through some shit. But not even just romantically, just living life.

It was a comfort album for you? It was just like this is. It almost to me feels like a Bible for how to live life. Oh, I love that. And then pairing it with deeper well as well, which I also like, like, I love that. I'm about to go through my Saturn return. Oh, hang on. What, oh God, what do you mean?

It can get rough, but you'll be better for it. How was your Saturn return? It was rough, divorce. I moved houses. Like, yeah, it was intense. It was intense. I really do think there's something to it for sure. But it does make way for, I think, maybe more authenticity, more room kind of clearing, you know.

So, yeah, but just have a Xanax on hand or something. Yes. I actually did want to ask you about your relationship to weed. I thought you were just going to say, I did want to ask about your relationship to Xanax, which do you have one? I mean, sometimes you just need a chill pill. I really do. Like it is. My brain is so all the time that I need something to just shut it off.

Maybe try meditation. Do you meditate? No. No, I do sometimes, but not as much as I used to do it twice a day. I've been journaling. That's good. Journaling. And I've been journaling to Golden Hour.

Really? Yes. Oh, I love that. Yeah, because it makes me think about like the simplities of life and like finding just like writing, because I feel like I journal to write about things that I would normally forget. I'll never forget interviewing you this day,

or talking to you this day, but I won't, like, there are moments where I'm like, and then I asked her about aliens, not knowing that she had just created an alien. And like, it's like little things like that to drink. The nuances of like the other moments that, yeah, you kind of skim over later. Yeah.

Yeah. I've been journaling for years for that reason because I feel like when I'm an old ass lady, I'm going to be like, wow, I had an interesting life. You do have an interesting life. I do. I really do. But I did want to ask about your relationship with weed because on deeper well, you said I used to wake and bake. Yeah.

Roll out of bed. I know. It was, girl, yeah. I don't know why at one point in my life, I was like, let me get as high as possible before I do anything. I feel that. Really? I was that way. Yeah.

I took a nine month break and now I'm back on the wagon. You are? I am. I kind of am too a little bit, to be honest. Okay, really? Because rhinestoneed. Yeah, right, rhinestone. Which you can get rhinestoneed in a lot of different ways.

You know, pick your poison. But yeah, like, it's funny. Everyone was like, she doesn't smoke weed anymore. I was like, I never said I didn't smoke weed. I'm just saying I don't hit a gravity bong right when I wake up. That was made out of a two liter and you put it in a water bucket. I don't need to, whatever, it's fine. But, yeah, like here and there, I've been kind of like,

dabbling again maybe not i'm not these people that do like the shatter and the wax and damn i don't even know what you just said what is that it's so it's just a method it's a form of um oh it's like a condensed very like concentrated form and it it will like it'll send you yeah will send you to like yeah um but anyways yeah but just like a a chill like i'm a one puff girl really we're taking one puff and then if you cough oh you're you're done It's, I'm going inward. Yeah. I'm going to go, I'm going to get nonverbal after that.

So I just, you know, a little bit. Let's, you know, just take the edge off. I think it makes me nicer. I think it makes me nicer too. But then I think the come down of it, I reach a little bit of mania. Oh, really? And that's why I had to stop because for these like 20 minutes, I would have these like grandiose ideas and like, like those ideas being like

the dumbest things in the entire world. But what if they were like kind of genius? To me at the time they were, but then the mania, I would get so paranoid. It caused such paranoia that I was like, I need to stop. The paranoia does. Yeah, I don't like that. Or anxiety. I'm like just anything, let's mitigate the anxiety.

Anything to just get that out. Right, right. And that's what, yeah. But yeah, anyway, a little bit of dabble. Have you written any of your songs? Why? Little seeds of ideas come from being high. I think I wrote some down the other day, actually.

I'm what I would love to hear this. Oh, we'll see what I have. Don't hold your breath. Well, one of the things I wrote down is, but do aliens believe in me? Really think about it, that's it. And then I also put... Wow.

Separate... I feel like in the presence of greatness. But then, this is another one I wrote down the other day. I had a dream that I wrote a song called I wish I was my boyfriend. I love that. I wish I was my boyfriend. Oh, please keep going. This is like, I feel like...

I do. want to write a song though and it's like it has yet to be written but I think the breaking news has finally broken me I think there's a song in there anyway that yeah there's a song in there wow that is really beautiful but I have a shitload of things in here doesn't mean it's should all be said but um maybe there oh this was one I kind of feel like I feel like maybe I don't know if this is more of a girl relatable idea but like writing about a friend breakup oh no no no I I relate to that. There's something about like when

when you pivot in a friendship and you know you have to let go of a friend specifically I feel like in female relationships I feel like female friendships get they're so intimate that it's almost sometimes more and not in a sexual way.

It's just it can be more intimate than like a romantic relationship with like your boyfriend or whatever like I don't know friendship breakup sucks. It's almost like you're losing losing a sibling in a way or something. It has that same kind of feeling. It's like, yeah, like a soul sister or whatever.

It's really not fun. I don't like that feeling, you know. But I mean, also friendships I think are meant to ebb and flow. And I don't know. People just kind of, it's not like on purpose sometimes, you know. You actually have a lyric that I listen to sometimes when I think about my friendship breakups and it's like it's on deeper well. it's when things lose their shine.

It's natural when things, it's no regrets, baby. I just think that maybe it's natural when things lose their shine. And for that, that lyric for me is kind of so healing because it's like, things are supposed to think you can't be shiny forever. Yeah. And I know for you that might have been about a relationship or whatever,

but for me the way that I listen to it and I take it as I do listen to it and think about like friendships past. And yeah. You know, and you never know, things can circle back around with people. Like sometimes you just need a pause. If it's, don't force it,

you know what I mean? I think it's hard. I just think it's like lonelier than a breakup because friends are like family. There is something, there is something different about it. And that's, I think just what I wrote down on my phone is like,

there, I don't know that I've heard, maybe there is a song out there, but like a song about breaking up with a friend. You know what I mean? Like, I'm sure there is. Like every song's been written. There might be,

but there's not a Casey one. And I, I need that. Okay. Well, we should co-write it. Oh, don't see, Casey, seriously? Because I will follow up. Because I will follow up and you'll be like, why don't know what?

I'll be like, God, why did I say that? Why did I like offer that? No, before we started recording, we were talking about the transition from dry spell to back on the wagon. Yeah. And Casey was like, someone commented, oh my God, like, because back on the wagon is not what you would think it's going to be. I saw some comment that was like when the track list came out and it was like,

like, in my mind it was some girl. And some girl was like, wow, can't wait to see the transition from Drysville to back on the wagon. And I was thinking, oh, they're going to get got. And that girl was you. It was me. It was literally, I remember commenting that being like, mm, like, I remember being like, I ate that. I was like, can't wait for them to see. And then, yeah, that was literally you.

I had no idea. It was me. So what is back on the wall? wagon about to you because you say he's back on the wagon right break it down for me sure um basically i think it's speaking mostly to the character that i have been in my relationships in different forms like throughout the years and i've been this like hopeful girl when i pick somebody who like you know everybody's on their own healing journey but like i'm just tired of being like i think a lot of women pick men that they have to like helping the man the man

improve their life like in so many different ways and like for once I'm just like can I just get an equal you know what I mean yeah I've been the girl a lot where I'm like hey I can like make your life better and I can help you and I can do this and you know uh the guys like yeah yeah I'm gonna change like I'm I'm just like this maybe it's not being naive and being young and just being like they're gonna change just kind of being like in love with someone's potential and being like oh but they're going to be better guys like he said he's different now he's back on the wagon he's not you know drinking anymore doing this anymore he's he's he's gonna be he's i swear like he's totally changed he's he's back on the wagon guys like and you your wordplay is some of the most clever in the fucking game

thank you because you would think back on the wagon means he's drinking again but you're like actually he's on the mend of being a better person i swear he's back on the sober wagon he's back on the I've changed one hand or whatever. And it's like, I've been that girl so many times. It's like, girl, he's not, he's not, he's, this is who he is right now. Or the most part, people are just who they are, you know, unless they just really want to have a personality overhaul and that's really hard. Do you believe people can change? If they really, really want to, but they have to really want to.

And it has to come from, it can't be someone else's idea. But do you think like the basis of who that person is? My grandma always says no. Much. What? That they. That you can't. That they can't change.

Like who they are is who they are. Yeah. Yeah. I think grandma's right on this one. I think mostly. But I will say maybe sometimes, like, there are these hard lessons that you need to learn sometimes in life. And sometimes you kind of maybe got to hit a rock bottom to really see the gravity of like,

oh, fuck. All right. Like, I got to shit. Like, you, if you don't hit the rock bottom, you may not see that you have to change. But most times someone is going to be who they are. So, like, when they show you a first time, fucking pay attention. they show you a second time, just no. Are you good at cutting people out?

I have gotten that way. And not to be like ruthless or like, you know, sometimes I feel like in this modern age, people can be too much like I'm cutting them off. Like they, you know. Her. And I think people have to have room to be human also because nobody's perfect. But like if, you know, if you're not being valued,

well like why are you sticking around somewhere you know what i mean and i think your music does a really really good job of showcasing that thanks i mean like what a wild trip it is right to to be human and to be alive and like we really don't know if there's anything else after this you know i like to believe that they're like in the that there is a lot to it that we can't see but i just think there's so much magic in actually being like right here and being alive and like um you brought up deeper well but like heaven is the song on that record is is kind of about that it's like you know people talk about like a heaven you know or this like when i get to heaven it's like and it to me it was like in that moment where i was in my life it was like no heaven was you know um the walk i went on this morning or

like you know the flower that somebody picked and gave to me that i put in a little vase of water it's like it's wearing my favorite like tattered t-shirt it's you know it's like heaven is in the moments where you're actually you're still alive for you know yeah and i also feel like you can hear it in other songs as well, like the architect. Mm-hmm. Where you're like, what does this mean? Please, someone tell me. Yeah, like, can someone tell me what's going on?

Yeah. God. Wow. Thank you Deep Pop for sponsoring tonight's episode. If you noticed, I've been wearing more vintage stuff, which I've spoken about. It is because I've been using Deepop to help curate my own personal style, which I feel like I have always been lacking. For tonight, I am wearing

Casey Deeper Well merch that I found on Deepop. Like, I love, I always talk about it, but I love merch so much. Like, I love old merch as well, like old artist merch from like an old album or an old tour. And Deeper Well might not be old, but it's not the current album. So

finding stuff from past eras, I think is so cool. Deep Pop is a fashion resale marketplace where personal taste has real value. It's the easiest and most rewarding place to sell fashion. You can list your first item in less than five minutes. It is so easy. There's also no seller fees, which means more money in your pocket. It is really, it truly such an authentic vintage shopping experience online. This shirt, like that I bought from Deepop means

to me and it obviously meant something to the seller. So it really makes for such a personal experience in shopping. And like you can use other people's personal styles and passions to help curate your own, which I think Deepop is just incredible at. Also, I've been talking a lot about a spring reset, and, like, there's no better place to hone in on your personal style for a spring reset for clothing than Deepop. Because at the end of the day, clothing is art, and art is made by people. So, like, I know it sounds cheesy, but these people selling this art, like, it obviously means something to them. So it really is so helpful in, like, I know when I'm buying something on Deepop, I'm buying it because I like it, not because it's just for sale. Like, I'm buying it because

I've scrolled and I've looked and that's the thing that I like and I want it. Download the Deepop app now and start listing today. Thank you again, Deepop for sponsoring tonight's episode. Thank you, Poppy, for sponsoring tonight's episode and this season. As you guys know, there is no soda in this world. I love more than Poppy. You also know my favorite flavor besides Shirley Temple is always cherry lime made.

That's why I always have one with me. Poppy is a better-for-you soda with prebiotics and five grams of sugar. And that's why Poppy has become such an integral part of, I feel like everyone's lives. I see it. It's so crazy seeing the rise of it for the past few years because I used to be, I used to have the hardest time finding them in convenience stores and I literally find them everywhere now. And I just feel like that's a testament to how good it is. Also, I am like on my own personal fitness journey.

So having, being able to like have soda not feel bad about myself. after, which is something that, like, I've just struggled with personally, like, is a game changer for me. Like, I die for Poppy. Like, if you know, you know when I was posting videos back in 2023, like 17 times a day, I was making up random jingles for Poppy and just like, it was like, so the fact that they're like now sponsoring the podcast is just, it feels so correct. Poppy, so does back, but so much better. Well, Casey, what are you therapist about today?

What if it's nothing? I don't know. It can be nothing. It doesn't have to be anything. Pissed? Like, as in, I'm pissed off? Yeah. What's yours?

Mine is missed my workout. Ooh. And I'm trying to, like, be like, like, it's fine, it's fine. It's not fine. You actually want to know what my real one is? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so shallow. You're going to be, like, literally, like, end the interview.

I posted an Instagram dump. And you forgot one picture. I just like didn't feel like it did what it needed to do. Louise was like this. Louise said to me, this isn't giving what you think it's giving. Isn't it weird how some just don't? Yeah.

And you're like, ew. Yeah. What was that? I, it's like I love, I am also pissed about the fact that I'm entering this era of wanting to curate my life again. Oh, yeah. And I felt like I was out of that for so long. Mm-hmm.

And I feel like I'm entering it. And I like where it's like I want to be seen as cool. I'm like cool boy. Well, maybe the curation is in the uncuration. It is. That makes sense. It is. And like I found and I was that for so long and that's when I connected with the most amount of people is when I didn't care about when there wasn't a curated.

But now I'm back to curating because I feel. Wonder what that is. It's that I feel physically attractive again. And I like my, I like my body and I'm like, that's awesome. It is awesome, but I'm, I'm having trouble. I'm starting to like more too. Yeah, but I'm like, I'm starting to fall into that trap that I once fell into where it's like, once I like my body or I like my appearance, now I have to behave a certain way or act a certain way.

Like, do you know what I mean? Like, do you know what I mean? I'm like, it all stems from like this deeper, deeper, deeper, deeper. deeper, deeper, deeper insecurity that I have. That it's like maybe I, I don't know what I'm trying to say. It's like I'm falling into this era where I, I'm happy to present myself physically to the world again. Because I felt for a while very insecure and unattractive. And in a, in presenting myself.

Yeah. These new insecurities kind of come about again that are like, oh, but make sure you look like this. Make sure you look like this. Make sure you look like this. And I think that's, if that makes, I think that was a lot of word vomit, but if that makes sense. No,

but it's interesting that you're saying in a roundabout sense that the newfound security is also for some reason giving you insecurity. Yes. I don't know why. I wonder why. Well, maybe because like you're feeling yourself and you're feeling the urge to like put yourself out there again. But with that does come some opinions.

Right? I don't know And is there like a fear of that? I think it's a fear of like I'm your therapist now No please I know and honestly This is like my My dream

I think it's like I think I'm so I think I'm still insecure Is what it is I mean aren't we all Jesus Christ For me it's a rotating It's like a rotating door Of what are you gonna feel today

Some days I'm like yeah That bitch And then some days I'm just like I'm the fuggliest Yeah person I've ever fucking seen. And I like, it's body dysmorphia kicks in. You know what I mean?

It's real. It's real. No, I have that. Like, I literally have that. It's like, I think it's, I'm not as, I think what it is is that the base I thought I've created is not as secure as I thought. It's like, like, it's literally like plain Tetris. Or not Tetris.

What's the, Jenga. Jenga. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, Jenga. It's like. Anxiety game. Yeah. It's like the base that I thought I had.

isn't as powerful as I thought because all it takes is one night out where I'm feeling good and then a man will be like flirting with me and then I'll see him flirting with someone else and then everything just completely 180s. I think you're anxiously attached. Okay. I think you're an anxious attacher.

What is it? Okay, can you explain? Okay. Please. Let me make it that. No, no. It's really interesting. There's a book and the psychologist studied

I'm probably going to butcher this myself. But they studied like the way that it could be like even how much your mother or your caregiver, whoever, like picked you up and loved Donnie physically. Like how much did that happen? Or were they not in the picture? Or like there's probably so much psychologically that goes into it. Like were you left to cry it out versus being like there's probably so many. You know what I mean? And how your parents showed you love, how you were responded to,

shaped how you crave love and give love. You know what I mean? How you give and receive. And so like the goal is to be a securely attached person. So no matter like how the other person is regulated or not, like you're standing firm and your secureness in the relationship knowing that like what however that other person behaves has nothing to do with you. It's how it's all it has to do with them.

Wow. And that's the goal. And that's the goal is to stand firm in that. You know what I mean? but every usually most people sway to one side or the other so either anxious or um avoidant and it's um it kind of just speaks to like how you view connection i guess and so like an anxious attacher just really wants that closeness and they have this deep-seated fear that they're either not good enough or that the person's going to leave or um the relationship's just going to like fall apart

You know what I mean? And so they hold on tighter and maybe they control more or they like, you know, maybe they create issues that aren't there. You know what I mean? Like, hey, you didn't call me back. Like, it's worst case in your thinking they didn't call me back for six hours. They must hate me. You know what I mean?

It's that. You know, did I do something wrong? Did they hate me? Whatever. And then the flip side of that is the person who feels very like suffocated, kind of trapped or claustrophobic by deep connection. Maybe they have a deep fear of being rejected if someone really sees who they are. So they push.

I do think that there is a hybrid, which is fucked. Yeah. I don't know how to help you. But yeah, but normally it's interesting. Two avoidance don't usually get into a relationship together because there's got to be, there's this like almost like this mathematical need for like a push and a pull in a relationship.

And so usually it's the anxious, the pursuer, and then the person that's backing off. and it makes the other person pursue more, and then it just kind of, like, does that. But, yeah, it's really, really an interesting theory. You know what I mean? And the book is really helpful, and it speaks to, like, if you're anxiously attached

or if you're avoidant, like, here's kind of, like, how you can sort of, like, move more towards, like, a securely attached. You don't want to be too far on either side. I feel like I hear this a lot in your music. The one you're telling me about this, I'm like, I'm thinking of songs, give or take her. Oh, yeah, nothing to be scared of.

Oh, nothing to be scared. I know that one hurts. No, that one for me, when I first, I remember actually exactly where I was. I was in that back area smoking a joint with my best friends. And the chorus to nothing to be scared of, or nothing to be scared of came on. And we all just like took a moment.

Oh. Come to me and drop your bags. Yeah, yeah. And I will help you unpack them. Like I've never that, because that's the goal. That's all I want. We all have the baggage. Like we all come to relationships carrying luggage from.

previous places and yeah you just got to be with the right people that will help you go okay you have this well i have this let's let's put it away you know what i mean and it was me just really trying to convince the person that like subconsciously uh it was a song kind of to them in a sense saying like um to an avoidant person saying you um you have nothing to be scared of like it's i'm here like i'm not You know, like love is not something to be fearful of. And then that person broke up with me over text. So it meant it was all for nothing. You know what, the songs.

The songs were there. Wow. I like love hearing you talk about the story behind those songs. A lot of real life. But that's the magic of you. I like really feel like I'm in the presence of greatness right now. Oh my God. No, and I'm sorry.

I really don't want to make you feel weird or anything. but like I really feel like I'm in the press. I like genuinely feel like I'm in the presence of like one of the greatest songwriters of my life, of our life because you speak your experience without fear of. And I think did that change for you a little after Golden Hour after you felt a little more seen publicly? It's,

that's an interesting question because like, you know, I make all the music because it makes, it does something for me. It's therapeutic for me. right and it's just a cherry on the on the cake that like other people connect with it right and then something happens like album of the year and out of all the music that was made i mean for whatever reason it it won that title and that was extremely live changing for me and um it can be freaky

because you know you can go you're at you're at a fork in the road there when something like that happens because you can either go okay like i feel validated in the fact that when I made Golden Hour, it was unlike any other record I had previously made. It was very different than same trailer and pageant material. And I felt like I was kind of going out on a limb a bit with the style of it. But I felt like it was really special to me. And I had no roadmap other than just like what made me feel really good. And then it ended up really connecting.

And I think there's a lot to what makes an album like really land. It's like a lot of time and play, like right time, right place. The climate in the world just supports it for whatever reason. And you can go, okay, I feel really validated that people really connected with this. I'm going to keep doing that. You know what I mean? I'm going to keep like, my only compass needs to be what makes me feel good and what feels authentic to me. Because ultimately that's what's going to keep connecting, right?

But it can also admittedly give you a little bit of like, oh shit. Like now people do they really expect another golden hour? Right. You know what I mean? And I think it's interesting because. You know, Golden Hour happened. And while I was at, like, this really high, like, high point in my, like, creative life, I was at a really low point in my personal life, my love life.

You know what I mean? Coming out of that and going through a divorce. And then writing StarCross, which was, like, a record that I had to make as a creative. And I was in this really intense, kind of visceral place in my life. And the music sort of reflects that. It's like there's a lot of, like, electronic elements. It's kind of harsh at times. it's very layered and affected.

And I think a lot of people were, like, thrown off by it because they really wanted another golden hour. That's what they were expecting. And it was a total pivot. And I would like to think that I have the fan base that maybe if they don't, like, totally love the album that I put out, maybe they can at least respect the fact that I didn't just turn the same goddamn thing in or try to recreate it because you can't recreate that magic twice.

It's going to sound fake. Right. You know what I mean? You could probably get similar, but it'll just eventually start sounding like you're creating the same thing over and over and you're going to sound like a pigeonhole. Like it's not going to have that fresh, that life to it. You know what I mean? And so, anyway, justice for StarCross. That's all I'm saying.

I love StarCross. I love StarCross too. Did you feel that was that pressure really hard for you to deal with though? Like after everyone was like, okay, Golden Hour part two, here we go. Or were you like? It was annoying to me that people, I don't think they got it. I really don't think that they got StarCross, but I also was just like, I really don't care. I mean, I fucking loved making that album.

And there was so much, like, beautiful cosmic synergy through me and that album and making it and just the imagery and where I was at and the storytelling. And then, like, the whole movie that I got to, the StarCross movie that I got to make with it. I mean, it's something that I'm really proud of. So like, I don't really care if you don't get it. Like, it feels good to me. But I just think it's more so about what people were expecting. You know what I mean? Right.

But like, I really love when an artist takes a chance. And if I don't love their, you know, new record or whatever, I'll catch them on the next one. I'll be like, whatever. Like, you know what I mean? Wow, I love that you just said that I feel like in today's culture with Twitter and standbases and how fast the news cycle goes. People like kind of your, what is it? I want to say they make your worth to them or your importance equal to how much they connect with your latest creation. Yeah.

And that's not really like what it should be about, I feel. But they put so much weight onto like, did I connect with this? She's done. I'm off of her. Right. You know? Right. She fell off.

But it's like, you fell in love. with that person because that person wrote music as a person. And like you just so happened to converge at the same time. Yeah. And relate. And like it's okay that you don't on this one. Maybe you'll love the next one. Right.

Yeah. It's interesting. Yeah. I've never heard it laid out like that. But that is really what I think is going on in our. Yeah. Like if you think about like I'm trying to think of an example. Just like any like weaser.

I'm just trying to think of like any band that I've like loved. for a long time or like, I'm just trying to think of like any, like Patty Griffin, any songwriter, whoever, like they might put out a record and not be, I might like really fucking love it.

And then like their next one I might be like, it's not really for me. But I can still respect who they are and respect that, hey, they tried something different. I think a perfect example is brat by Charlie X, X, X.EX. It came at the perfect time.

The perfect time. It was just the perfect storm of like this harsh, I feel like we were so, and I think we were trapped by COVID longer than we thought. Oh, are we? Yeah. I know. I'm like, was that a wormhole? Like, did we, I saw some theory. It was like, did we all actually die during COVID and this is hell now? Sometimes I think if I'm driving in a car and I almost get hit by a car, there's a parallel universe in which I did get hit by that car. There probably is. Yeah, right? No, it's trippy. It's trippy. We probably don't want to get on the subject of quantum physics

because then we'll be here forever and you'll be like, I'm never, ever going to talk to her ever again. No, I just won't understand. I'll have to go sentence by sentence. Where are the tell me what's wrong? They're over by you, K. So it's the envelope right there. Oh, yeah, that's right. Let's look at these.

Oh, do the honors. I feel like I'm in a pageant. Please do the honors. I wish you could stay here forever. I know, sleep over. Please, oh my God. Sleep over with Casey would be the best name in my life. Honestly, that'd be a fun, like, series or something.

Or like, not serious, but like a little, like. You've now sprouted an idea. staying. We're going to bake cookies. We're going to break these with his hair. Yes. We're going to play board games. Smoke weed.

Smoke weed. We're going to do a Ouija board. You're probably not into that. I'm into whatever you are into. Okay. So do I read these or do you? Please. My close friend, Homewrecked.

Homewrecked is in all caps, by the way. My close friend home wrecked a relationship with one of my close friends and is confused why I won't stand up for her. It's a town scam. handle. We've been friends for years, but this may be the end for real. As someone in a relationship, I don't want to defend her and condone the behavior. Am I allowed to drop her? I feel like she needs a little help since everyone's ganging up on her, but it's not a good look, you know? I think you might be the problem in the sense that you're viewing this friendship as a look thing. Like you're like, it's not, she's saying like, what do you think? I've been friends with some homeworkers before.

it's a conflicting place to be in. And you're, because you're like, oh, why are you making bad choices like that? But just because they made the bad decisions doesn't mean they need to lose you. Yeah, that's true. Maybe they need some truth teller. But see, yeah, maybe they need some truth tellers.

Here's my question, I guess, is can you be truthful with this girl? And really, like, tell her what maybe she doesn't want to hear, you know, because that's a real friend. Not just, I understand, not just walking out because somebody did something embarrassing. but if maybe if this is a pattern for this girl or whatever, then I think it does speak to a larger character.

And like, do you want to be friends with someone like that? Right. But also, I guess that's her business, right? It's so not black and white. It just, you need more context on her friendship. Because she's probably feeling I'm in a relationship. There's probably that underlying feeling of would she homework my relationship? Right.

Yeah, like what is her moral, where are her moral standards? Like, how far could she go? Right. But I would say it's very hard to drop someone. Not hard, it's very, when someone's at their lowest, sometimes I do believe that you kind of just have to let them hold on to you for a second as they get their standing.

That's true. Like maybe sometimes you have to give someone a place where they can maybe be their shittiest version of themselves and still receive the love, you know? Yeah. But at the same time, I mean, there's a line for everything, right? Yeah.

But that's a toughie. That's a toughie. I prescribe home record by Somba. Ooh. Do you have a song of yours that you would have them listen to? Maybe not dry spell. Not dry spell. Maybe deeper well.

Yeah, let's go inward. Yeah. Let's go inward. Let's go inward. Okay. Do you want to read the next one? Okay. I'm so hyperfixated on being in a relationship as I'm 29 and never had a boyfriend, me either.

but I'm 26. I put myself out there, but I'm so insecure that I always just overcompensate and make a fool of myself or shut down entirely. What can I do to take the pressure off this ticking clock? Well, I do feel like it's a cliche, but it's really, really true that the moment that you really kind of stop caring and you like stop wanting something so bad is kind of usually,

like in terms of relationships and love, it's kind of when it confines you. That's like kind of what happens to me is like when I feel like when I'm not looking for it at all. then like there it is. How do you stop looking? Is it fake it till you make it? I think maybe just focusing on yourself and your interests.

And like I feel like if you, you know, put yourself in positions to where like your, I don't know, whatever it is that you like to do, like you, you just keep pursuing you. You're going to maximize your chances of running into someone that is very like-minded and that you might find a lot of common ground with. And it won't feel like this like forced thing that you're like. like not sure of. You know what I mean? Yeah.

But yeah, nobody likes to try hard. Like, that's like, I feel like someone can spot that from a mile away as someone who desperately want, and it kind of gives like vibes of like, ooh, you know. You know what that reminds me of is your song on your upcoming record Loneliest Girl. Oh, yeah. It does. Or a space cowboy. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. But, like, Lonely's Girl specifically, it's like I made a lot of peace during this album time frame. I made a lot of peace with like being on my own and being single and it was the longest single period that I've ever had and I used to be kind of like really terrified to be alone and I dropped that with this I was like wait it's kind of awesome like I kind of started to really prefer it and just as I was really starting to like prefer it is when I like met somebody and I was like okay and then you're kind of conflicted there because you're like fuck I've been really

valuing my like sovereignty my like freedom my me yeah and now I have this and now yeah but I think after you have been like single for a while and you find the value in that and the confidence in that then you're able to kind of just put things back in your life or put things in your life that like really only add you know what I mean so I don't know what would you say to that person I am that person Okay. You wrote that card. I wrote it. I would say for me, I think it's different being gay.

And I think... Why do you think it's different? Because I didn't get to have those experiences of crushes in high school that the way most straight people would. You mean being like closeted and being gay? No, no. Just being gay. There weren't many. It's like you're in a class.

I was in a class of 60 kids and, you know, it was girl like boy, girl like boy. boy like girl. Yeah. And for me it was like, well, if there's one other gay person, you should obviously go for them. And I think having... And you were like, not about it. Well, it just wasn't for me.

And I think that's a tough feeling. And I have a group of gay guy friends that have changed my life. And I think finding for me, the way that I have really like therapy... That has... That therapies myself is surrounding myself with Will, Travis and Charlie who are my best friends and like being like I feel this way like do you feel this way too and they're like yeah I also feel that way yeah I'm just like feeling not alone in the fact that it's okay that I haven't had all the experiences that my girlfriends have because I'm a girl's guy at the end of the day like I was raised around woman like all my best friends are girls but to have those gay guy friends for me has really been like probably pretty validating very validating and it's made me more confident because I think like also my gay guy friends are like you would they're They're like the most beautiful people in the entire world to me.

And like for them to also be like, I feel that same way. It's very validating. Yeah, I totally. I totally get that. I'm glad you have that. My husband is friends with two girls from childhood who definitely hate me. And I also definitely dislike them. Not to mention one of them used to have a fat crush on him.

I brought this up to him subtly and he told me he'd cut them off if I really wanted to. But I don't want to be the reason anyone loses friendships. What do I do? Why do they hate her? I guess they're just being. Have you ever experienced that? Not really, but it'd be really hard to not be like, fine, then cut them off then. Yeah.

Fine then. I don't know. I mean, like, I don't know. What would you say to that? Like, I would say your husband is putting you in a tough place. Yeah. By being like, if you want me to, I will. He offered it.

Just do it. It sounds like he offered it. And so maybe my question for him is it doesn't sound like the relationship. his friendship with those two girls, which is that weird? Anyway, it sounds like it wasn't that stable or worth keeping to begin with if he was so easily able to be like, well, I'll just cut him off. Right. Well, then, okay.

Maybe he likes the validation from one of them that they used to have a crush on him. He loves being in the middle of it. It's an ego thing for sure. Okay, so wait, he's the problem. He's the problem. Yeah. That's what we did. I've been talking to this guy and he's been stealing my underwear.

I've caught him twice now. The first time he was joking. about taking them after we hooked up. And then when he left, I looked on the floor and realized it wasn't a joke. We texted about it. And he was like, I wasn't joking. Then I was like, okay, that's maybe semi-normal. IDK, I'll look past it.

But he did it again. I don't know. For me, I'd be like, that's sweet. What is she getting out of this? I don't know. But for me, I'd be like, oh my God, he wants my underwear. He can Venmo her. Yeah, like, I don't know.

Like, okay, $300 each pair. Right. Like, what are we? Like, how. This has to be mutually beneficial. Right. I, for me, I'm such like a weirdo. I feel like that I'd be like, oh my God, Louise.

Like, he keeps taking my underwear. But like, is it weirder if he asks you if he can have them? Because I feel like probably the thrill is like taking them. You know what I mean for him? Yeah. I'm not speaking for personal. But yeah, I'm like, I don't, it is weird. But I don't want to kink shame.

Right. I don't want to. Yeah. But like, what is she getting out of it? Thousand. Okay. This is a beautiful one to add on, I think. I love singing and songwriting and I've done it my whole life

I'm getting to a point where if I want to continue I need to make some things a reality it's very clear that the people in my life don't believe in me or just flat out don't care which is fine but it doesn't help I'm really considering giving up on this and going back to college for something else but I can't help but not let this dream go when I think about moving on any advice

it sounds like they're not that good you think um chase the dream girl no I'm just kidding I really don't know what to say. I don't know what to say like, can we hear the music? Right, we would have to hear the music. We would have to hear the music.

But like, who's not caring? I mean, I don't know. Like, I didn't really consider if I was even good or not. I just never had a backup plan. I was just like, I'm fucking doing this. I didn't go to college. I was like, no, like it just was in my mind. I was like, this, no, this is what I'm doing.

And I just kind of dealt with everything like along the way. So like, I was really lucky, I will say, like, in having my family's support from a very early age, it was like almost too much. It was like, oh, let's load up the minivan and go state to state. And then my whole childhood kind of became about performing. So I kind of have the opposite thing, which I'm really glad that I had it now because it's like quite literally made me who I am. So that would be really sad to feel like you don't have your, you know, your people's, like, support. it but I mean if it's if it's like a burning desire that you have I mean you have to see it through you got to you got it you got it I think like you have to give it your all knowing that you did so you know what I mean like you can say I fucking I've really tried this important thing happened to me or maybe it just like shape shifts along the way and if you have to have a different source of income I mean there's a lot of people who have um there's a lot of creatives that have some form of a job that that's a form of a job that you have to have to have a job that you have to have to have a job that. that pays the bills that maybe isn't soul fulfilling.

And then, like, they find a way to do that soul fulfilling thing. And maybe it's not the thing that's the breadwinner, but it's like, but it's there. Be a starving artist. But there, yeah. Eat ramen. Yeah. Well, before I let you go, can I ask you what your favorite song or maybe a lyric. Can I ask you what your favorite song?

or maybe like a favorite lyric that you've ever written is. Why are you doing this to me? I just, I have to. That's a toxic question. I know, but I have to. Something you're most proud of. Oh, man. I relate to all of them for so many different reasons.

I mean, like, I don't know why hookup scene just came to mind. I like really, really love that song so much. I think ultimately maybe slow burn. I think it feels the best. I feel like I'm at home. in my dead center whenever I'm playing that song, always. My favorite line from that song, obviously, is, um, sun's going down, but in Beijing, they're headed out to work.

What do you mean by that? Me and, me and Manny, who I work with, debated every single day. Really? Yeah. It's not like a deep, coded, coded thing. I know. This one isn't. So what do you, what does that mean to you?

It literally just means what it means. It just means they're going to work. And I'm over here. Like the sun's going down in Tennessee and like over there across the world people are like it's a different day and they're like going to work and starting their next day and like I'm over here and it was very like stream of conscious. Like I wasn't putting a lot of thought and like it just like kind of came out. You know what I mean? Because I was just picturing. I was sitting on my porch in Tennessee and picturing these people around the world like doing their thing over there, you know.

It's like the world just keeps turning and yeah. And you're all right with a slow burn. And I am all right with a slow burn. And God, I love that song. That's how, that album, everything you do is just brilliant. Thank you. Casey, what did we learn today? Don't homework.

Don't homework. That was one. What did you learn? Anxious attachment. I learned about the attachment styles. I learned about UFOs. About UFOs. I learned that a podcast can be extremely comfortable and really fun.

That's what you learned? You can ask my team. I don't really like do a lot of podcasts. And you had fun doing this? I'm like not leaving. I really don't want you to go. I told you we're having to sleep over it. I'm so glad that that was your takeaway.

I feel I my takeaway was like meet your heroes because they're going to tell you exactly what you thought of that like exactly how I envisioned how you envision your work is what how you see it. Well that makes me feel good because it makes me feel like my vision was received. you know. Yeah. And that I fucking love that. I think you were put on this earth to write and sing songs.

And I'm so grateful I got to talk to you about it. Guys. I really, I like really am. Like I think like you are just, I could talk about how brilliant you are for hours on end. I mean, are you all hearing this?

Yes. He said it. He said all of it. And I think your new album, middle of nowhere is so, so, so incredible. That makes me feel good because I was like nervous.

I've been nervous. I'm like, is this boring? No, it's not boring, but that goes back to the quote that I read you at the beginning, which is that you make the things in life. I think the most beautiful art is when you make something so unextradinary, extraordinary. And that is what you do with your music. Thank you. And you do such a wonderful, incredible job of doing it.

Thank you so much. I feel so uplifted right now. like no one can crash this high. No, and as they shouldn't because... I'm going to be coasting on this for weeks. I'm so glad because you deserve it. Thank you. Your music does that for a lot of people.

It's timeless. At the end of the day, it's timeless music. I love that compliment. It really is. Thank you. Because, I mean, you know, the hope is that like something that was really important to you lasts and still either matters

or feels really good in 10, 20, year, or however long, you know what I mean? Like, it's really trippy to think that like the things that you create are going to outlive you. You know what I mean? Isn't that creepy? Yeah, that is creepy. Do you think about that often?

Sometimes I'm kind of like, that's so weird. Like when I'm dead and gone, like, there's going to be like a little trace of me out there. You know? Weird. But it's so timeless. And that's why it will be there. Well, thank you. And stream middle of nowhere out May 1st.

Like and subscribe. Do it all. Bye. Thank you. Love you, Casey. Thank you.