Therapuss with Jake Shane - Session 76: Lorde

Episode Date: June 5, 2025

In your car the Therapuss up... Thank you to Booking.com for sponsoring this episode! Find exactly what you’re BOOKING for on Booking.com! Tickets on sale now for LIVE WITH JAKE SHANE at passthatpuss.com! Follow Lorde & Listen to “VIRGIN” out June 27th! https://www.lorde.co.nz/ Tell Me What's Wrong at ⁠ passthatpuss.com Follow Me! Instagram | @passthatpuss TikTok | @octopusslover8 Listen to "THERAPUSS" Spotify: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/1BHDdC0OVuHqZ706FobfOF ⁠⁠Apple Podcasts: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/therapuss-with-jake-shane/id1723626781⁠⁠ Amazon Podcasts: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/93117357-1f23-46e1-8f26-88f5182a68b8/therapuss-with-jake-shane⁠⁠ YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@octopusslover8 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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I live, I'll show you after. My room is right. there and then all the girls live in the main house. All the girls? Yeah. I live with three girls from college. I know. And they're all like a city in their room like this right now that you're here. Oh my God.

That's so sweet. You love the girls. And why do you live in B. I know. I know. I know. Well, I was born in L.A. And then I was raised in New York.

Okay. So I was raised in Washington Heights in New York. Yes. And then I moved to Los Angeles for college. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Okay, okay.

Yeah. And you're just like the like yummy way of life. I just love L.A. But I'm like, why don't I live in Los Fillas? Because as we've met the other night, I was like, I feel like everyone's in Los Phelis these days. And I actually used to live in Los Phelis when I was a little kid. It was very cute over there.

I do like it. No, when I... What's nice over here today? Yeah. How are you doing today? I'm good. How am I doing? It's so cozy today.

I know. Saturday. It's kind of fun to do this on a Saturday. I know. And I would literally call it to everyone up and I said, this is a 911 one-one. Lord is coming in on Saturday I'm sick about it

and cancel your plans you're way too cute I love you I really do and I'm so excited for your new album Thank you Are you how long did it How long did you make it for it? Like how long did it take?

I started making it at the fabulous Taylor Cosmo Oh yes yes yes yes And we have the Taylor there And all the fake diplomas. Most university, sorry I got distracted. No, please, I can tell you about anything you want to know about.

Absolutely love, absolutely love. I started making it, I sort of, like, tried to start making it sort of mid-23. And I just sort of like went crazy instead and went to London and, yeah, just sort of, like, had a mental breakdown. Got single and, yeah, just sort of, I don't know what all happened. And then, properly at the end of 2023. we started making it. We wrote what was that? And I was like, okay, this is sick.

And then all 24 we made it basically. And was it like, were you having like, like, were you just struggling before like to get like what you wanted to say out? And then you had to like have that moment where it's like you broke up and you went to London in order to like start regurgitating like everything out? I think I really like wanted. There was something I really wanted from like even before it started clicking. Like I met Jimmy who I made the album with at the start of 2022. And I was like, there's a kind of music that I think I should be making that I think we could make together. And I basically described to him like what the album is.

But it took me a long time to like be able to. So Vic took some bravery actually this album. Like just to be like, ah, like really like go there. And it just takes some time. I always think like you kind of have to like write your way out of the album before. Oh, interesting. I just spend all this time dancing around what I'm going to say and not saying it. So, you know, and then all of a sudden you hear a sound.

You're like, oh, that's how it should sound. And then that builds it out. So I don't know. I'm just like, I really went into it with no plan. I was like, I have to be very, keep very open and fuck around and like see what happens. Right. and then is that kind of like where the name like virgin comes from because it's kind of like all that anticipation in order to like get to that first time and then you like do it and then it's

like everything starts flowing after that oh i like that interpretation okay cool so that's not right but i like it it's cute no and the benign version i just felt like it was so there was something so cool about it to me like i think i i mean it like speaks to a sort of like purity but the album was quite sexual so it wasn't like sexual purity it was just sort of this feeling of like newness

and purity and sort of something coming right down to something essential like and even like you know there's virgin steel or virgin hair like these things that are sort of like denote purity but I also like you know

I'm kind of always trying to like stay connected to my like teen self. I feel like there's some real, like, magic in the, like, teen version of you. And I don't know. It was really, like, trying to kind of get back to this place where you're kind of quite awkward, and it all sort of, like, spills out in a way that maybe you didn't want it to or, you know, you reveal something of yourself and that feels really vulnerable.

And it sort of all felt like virginity to me. Yeah. Yeah. I'm so excited. Freaking out. It was so cute. I'm like really like I was like how do I play this chill like I really can't like I literally remember like when pure heroin came out and I like you know when you just remember like certain moments of like listening to a song or an album and like exactly what you were doing I remember like tying my shoes like in my foyer of like my apartment and like listening to like team for the first time and like I remember getting into a fight with my best friend at the time and listening to 400 Lux and then I remember melodrama coming in. out and then so, and I just like, I'm just so crazy that you're here. I'm sorry. I'm just like freaking

out. Wait, how old are you? Are we the same age? We're close. I'm 25. Okay. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, okay. But do you ever like go back? Oh, you're so accomplished for 25. That's insane. Stop. When did you start? How long have you been doing this podcast? A year and a half? A year? Yeah. Yeah. That's insane. I know. I know, a year and a half. Oh my God. Wait, when were you born? At the 2000s. 99. 99. 99. Jesus. So I like to say I'm like a 90s kid, but I'm not. Right, right, right. You know. 99's cool. I like that.

Right? It's like right before 2000, but I'm a Scorpio. And you're a Scorpio as well. Yeah. Yeah. Same, same, same. Yeah. Oh, so.

I mean, I remember, like, did you, it's so funny that you wrote what was that and then it ended up becoming the first single. Did you know when you wrote that? You were like, this is 100% on the album and this is going to be the first single. I did not know it was going to be the first single. I knew it was going to be on the album. and I kind of went back and forth on like whether or not to start there because yeah it is quite like classic me. Coming out of soul power I was like I think it's cool to like be like it's me.

Right, right, right. You know and then kind of like go somewhere. Oh, so the album doesn't sound a lot like what was that? I'm trying to think. No, I mean, the album's just like freaky. It's just cool and freaking its own thing. And, like, what was that? Just felt like a really cool, like, start to everything, you know.

Right. I don't know. Yeah. And you said that when you did, what was that? You were, like, you kind of just, like, you didn't write anything before. You kind of just, like, went in and did it. No, yeah. So we have mics like this, almost exactly like this.

Oh. I was just standing up and kind of walking back and forth. Yeah. Wait, did you hear that? No, you haven't heard the other. Okay, okay. I haven't heard a single thing. Oh, my God.

I haven't heard a single thing. I'll play you something after this. Okay, I need to calm down. I need to calm down. I need to calm down. Do you have a favorite song on the album? I, no, I have like eight favorites.

I just love it so much. I've never loved anything I've made so much. Really? So sick. How is putting out this album different than when you put out solo power, when you put out melodrama, or pure heroin, or the love club?

So cute, by the way. I love that you have the whole. the discography. I know. I love coming. I love coming in there. So sick. I,

how's it different? I mean, I don't know. This really feels like it's just, I mean, I sort of hate when I say it, but it is just like who I am. Like this is just me at this exact age and stage.

It feels like a, you know, section of my like favorites in my camera roll or something. Like, just like these are, the iconic moments from age 26 to age 28 um and you know it's so i do feel very there's sort of like no song that i'm like right this is just like easy and straightforward to put out like

they all you know i don't know i think because so much of this album came from this place of wanting to write a song that like I was like I don't have that in my phone and I've been going through this thing and it's insane that I don't have this because I talk to all my girlfriends and they're all going through this thing you know um so I don't know yeah it just is quite it gets in there and it's quite like it's all very like to do with the body it's very physical it's very vulnerable in that way and I honestly found like a lot of these songs quite hard to write.

Something took me a long time. I really dragged my feet, like, not finishing lyrics or whatever because it was just, like, uncomfortable for me. Right. But I think that's, like, where the magic happens. I, like, now believe that, like, if you're not feeling that discomfort,

as anyone who makes something, you're, like, not making anything good. Like, you have to be kind of, you know, for it to, like, get into other people and really, like, you know, that's what you're trying to do. Do you remember, like, a song on the album that was, like, specifically, like, really difficult to write? And you were like, oh, but then, like, when you did it, it was, like, you felt this release, maybe?

Totally, yeah, there's a song called Broken Glass that we, that I finished writing, like, two weeks before we handed in the album. And we'd been working on it for, like, a year. And I just couldn't. It was just so, yeah, so, like, stuck in me. And I was just, like, let it out. live it out like stop it bitch like you don't because there is this thing when you write a song you kind of let go of it like releases the kind of like big like bit of tension that you'd been holding around that subject and I really find this about pop music generally like because it's so like it's such a release like pop music at its best so cathartic like that works on my body as well like I'm like oh I'm set free from that thing that I was struggling with and you know and uh yeah the song broken glass is totally totally like that but i literally like yeah i just walked out of the studio i was like i'm just going home and i walked back to my house and

like ate something like i just had to get out of the fucking studio right and i feel like this album's kind of like that a lot but it's like we made it like it's like kind of like so you're so like the album's like so in your head kind of it was just so like in my head in my body like and there were things and I was just like, don't expose yourself like this. Like, don't. Like, I had this actually recently with, you know, I did this like interview with Rolling Stone and it was sort of the first time I had like talked about anything at length for years, you know, because I just like go the fuck away and come back.

And, you know, we were talking about like because I had dealt with some like food and body shit kind of for like, I don't know how long it was. Like it wasn't a super long period, but it was totally like disordered, you know. And just talking to the journalist about it and she said something about like your recovery. And I was like, oh my God, I'm someone who like has gone through recovery. Like it's even that. I was like, fuck. Like this shit is real.

And I'm so vulnerable to be talking about it. And I'm just so the kind of person who in my personal life, I'm close. to be really open about it, but it's a different thing when you're doing it, like, on the scale, but I just really came to this realization. I was like, this is what you're here to do. Like, you're supposed to be, people respond to your vulnerability in this crazy way, and it, like, allows people to, like, get into these parts of themselves. And, like, I'm just such a fan of music myself, and I know what it does for me,

when someone else goes somewhere, I'm like, okay, I'm going to go there, you know. And I was like, you just actually don't have a choice. You have to be brave and you have to get into these spots and it will like give, hopefully, give other people an opportunity to kind of be brave and hit the stuff within themselves, you know. Do you feel like because you've been writing and performing for so long and your music's always so vulnerable, do you feel like as you continue to create and you continue along your career and, you continue like occupying public space it becomes harder as like to be vulnerable as you like continue to like kind of see yourself as yourself well this was the thing like and i'm so

interested to hear from you about this like because i feel like as someone who like people are aware of and kind of look at your public perception over time can kind of like calcify and like almost like rust. Like it becomes quite like rigid. Like it's like this coat that you've been like wearing for a long time. And it gets like, oh, like, you really have to be careful not to let this kind of armour like rust onto you. You know, I think just as a human being, like it doesn't feel good. And I think it can be so like, okay, I had like crippling stage fright from when I was literally like five years old.

but I remember being 16 and like having a panic attack on stage, you know, or like even on melodrama, I remember like, yeah, basically like, yeah, just dealing with truly, truly bad, like very physical anxiety. And that was kind of because I had just been like, you've got to get out there, you've got to perform and you've got to get it right, you know, I'd put this like crazy pressure on myself. and something very rigid was happening, and it was just wrong,

whereas once I was like, you can deal with this in a human way, and you can actually say to people on stage, like, whoa, I'm kind of feeling crazy tonight, but let's, like, be in that together maybe? You've got my back, right? And they're like, yeah, we've got you. And then something cool happens,

and then it's moving, and then you're not locked up, you know? So, yeah, I really, I think that it's getting easier, like the older I get because I'm also like I don't know I'm just at the age where I'm like what's going to happen what's the worst that could happen like I'm going to be too alive

I'm going to show too much vulnerability like I believe that people know that I am trying my best and that I'm like yeah not like actively like trying to be an asshole you know and if I fuck it up

I fuck it up and I don't know, I just like always respond better to people's vulnerability than to the like Richard, you know. Well, it's almost like when like the armor rust, you're like scared to take it off because you don't know if you're going to be able to get it back on. Totally. All of this. Like, do you feel this?

Like, do you feel yourself like as you get more kind of profile being like, I have to like lock it down and like have it together or are you kind of like cool to let it all hang? Well, I used to kind of like let it all hang. And look, like I'm like. very, very, very, this is like on a much smaller scale, but like I, I get very scared of things disappearing and going away. And I get scared of fucking fucking it up and like saying something stupid where I used to. And it's funny because I feel like maybe that's why people initially like,

like your vulnerability. That's like why people resonate with you, you know? And then it's like you get scared of the reason people resonated with you in the first place because you get scared. It will be like taken away from you almost. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Sure. And I think I have to like maybe get to that point where you're at where you're like, well, what's the worst that could happen? Yeah. Because right now, like I think like, well, I don't want to know the worst that could happen. You know what I mean? No, sure. I feel you.

You know? Good to be safe. Yeah. But like it's, is it? I think, do you feel like solar power was kind of like you coming out of that armor a little bit into like like nature and like feeling everything? And then Virgin is like you like diving back into the water? this is such a good question

I feel like what do I feel like I feel like at the end of melodrama I really had this kind of not meltdown but I remember feeling all of a sudden like whoa hang on this thing that was my hobby

that I did like after school is now like my employment and I employ all these other people it's gotten too big like I'm a kid I just felt this thing of like, ah, like, I felt scared. I didn't know I was getting that little bit older, like the new kind of like crop were coming in.

And I was like, oh my God, like, I don't know if I want to do this at this level. I felt like really overwhelmed and just like went home to New Zealand and got a dog and sort of, I don't know, had this moment of sort of being like, I don't know if I want to do all of that. Like I'm just going to be this kind of girl who's like sort of off the map and like, really mysterious and sort of like even more distant and um and so about came from a place of like feeling very joyful and you know chill and like it was also so crazy touring melodrama like like I found it very for that whole time very intense to be sort of like in this like very just like hardcore music right right I don't know like I like I for some reason found it very intense

and I just wanted like something that felt like very light and easy after that but um it was cool like I like love solar power so much and I truly needed to make it like I wouldn't be here with another album if I hadn't made solar power but I think it showed me that like you sort of don't uh you sort of just have no choice but to like be who you're supposed to be like me sort of like disappearing and being all like wafty and um like on the beach like I was just like actually I don't think this is me

I think like I just am this person who's meant to like make these like bangers that like fuck us all up and like that just like rip across a like festival ground like I was like that's

I'm supposed to like do that to our bodies like I don't think I'm supposed to like vibe out out like and it was kind of sad for me because I love to vibe out and I am like that is like me to my court like I'm in an alternate universe where I just like lived in New Zealand and you know like worked at like an organic farm or something like that would be my vibe but um it's like not the life for me I think right now but I think what's so beautiful about your music is like all of your work is your vibe at the time you know what I mean like it's beautiful? Beautiful check.

Well, it's true. It's true. Solar power is like, it's very true. Like solar power, you know, I find myself when I listen to music at the age where you wrote the music, like I relate to it so much heavier. Like when I listen to melodrama as like a 21, 22, 19. Like, you know, when I listened to it, I was like, like, ah, like I feel this. You know, like I feel this. And then when I listen to solar power today, I'm like, yeah, I don't want to fucking go out.

Like I want to get high and go to the nail salon. I don't smoke anymore, but I used to do that all the time and listen to Stone at the nail salon. And, yeah, and I think that's what's really beautiful. I think that's honestly what makes your music timeless. Like, in my eyes, is that it really is like this kind of universal diary. And you spoke about feeling these things and not having it, being able to hear it in your ear because no one else spoke about it.

But I think you speak about it and you have. Love you. Love, love you. So sweet. Love you. I'm so beautiful to hear that. It's true. Because it is a funny thing.

When you start putting stuff out from a young age, like you're going to grow and change. You were young too. I was like so young and, you know, I think it's okay if I think, like, whether you make stuff or not, like if it just doesn't all move in a straight line. Like it's cool. The zig and the zag is actually a really awesome part of it all. And I have like no.

regrets ever, like for any zig, any zag, even the ones that are like uncomfortable in the moment or don't feel as representative or whatever, you know, you gotta love it all. Like, yeah, it gets you, it gets you there, you know. I, I would send, I would text with my friend Julia, I'd say, sorry, and then she'd say why, and that I'd send, like, all the lyrics to Super God. That's sick. And then she'd be like, cool, like. You're so sweet.

Sorry. I know, that's beautiful. I honestly like this is very moving for me because I actually like really struggle with like feeling like anything I've done is that does anything for anyone like I truly like it's very hard for me are you kidding? No I'm not joking like I some days it like really hits

like I'm just like wow like so moving for me there's some fucking slammers on the album. Please tell me one. I mean, there's some crazy words. This album's more like, trying to think of one that you would think was cool. I will think all of them are cool.

I think. There's a song that I love so much called Clear Blue. That is about unprotected sex. And just this experience of like taking a pregnancy test. And like this flood of emotions that goes through your body, like, whatever you want it to say, it's like such a like moment.

And that whole song like is just so, like, destroys me. Like I can't even really listen to it. How did you come up with like the cover of it? Like what is the cover? Because I've been trying to like figure out like, is that like an iPad in the chest? No. Okay. So the cover is my pelvis.

and then my IUD and the cover, yeah, I just had this. Did I just think it was an iPad? I mean, you know, it's an abstract image. Okay, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. But they are weird, like I wouldn't expect, I didn't know what they looked like until I had one. Yeah, I had no idea I thought it was an iPad. No.

And I thought it was like this like, um, saying of like technology. And like I thought it was this whole thing. Sort of like, maybe six months in that I wanted to take a lot of x-rays and like ultrasounds and MRIs. It felt like a really interesting kind of like techy, but like mystical type of image capture.

Like, and seeing like right into you and right through you. But also like so much information. is lost. Like, it's quite mysterious. But it was funny, like, I, making the album, before I even sort of figured this out,

I was, like, using the X-ray emoji a lot. And my text to friends, like, it just sort of felt like where I was at. Like, I was just trying to, like, see right into myself. And I would, like, I don't know, a friend would send me a text,

and I'd be like, wow, like, X-ray emoji. Yeah. And I started, like, using it online a lot. And it was so funny when the album comfort came out, the, like, kids and my, like, read it were like some of them were kind of like you know um oh like this like this was such a like she was just teasing this for such a long time like why did she tease it and i'm like you don't understand i i had no idea that was going to be the cover like that using that emoji sent me to the cover like

this whole album was just so i would see something written down somewhere and i would write it down and then that would make it into a song or you know i don't know it was just this very open process of like creation that like partly sometimes would be like oh i'm texting this thing to my friend a lot i think that's part of the album you know yeah do you is there like were there any like all covers that you were going to go with and how did you like like were like did you have any like or did you just like take this one and you were like this is it we took a whole lot of x-rays um no i just sort of like took all these x-rays and was like i think it's going to be something like that.

And then did you like have any other like title names for the album besides Virgin or was it just like this is it? Okay, so we actually did. But I can't tell you because I might use it. We'll see. I totally. I might use it for something else.

But no, the album had a full other name for like most of the time. Oh, no way. And I was like, I think it needs a name that is more reflective of what it is and it changed. But that's never happened to me before. Oh. Like when you came up with, like, pure heroin, melodrama,

so, like, did those names come to, like, immediately? And it was, like, this is it? Solvow I had before I started that album, melodrama had, yeah, kind of, like, halfway through. Pure heroin I didn't have till the end. But, yeah, I never had, like, a full other name. Yeah. Quite stressful with it, like, when I was, like, I don't think that's it.

I was, like, fun. I was like, it'll come, it'll come. I'm chill. Yeah. Did you, did you, how many songs do you, record for the album? Good question. I feel like I basically only ever record like give or take one or two, like the amount

that's on the album and then everything else is like sort of half finished. Like I only, yeah, it's a weird thing about me. I only really, everything I write, everything I finish. If I finish the song, it's like meant to be released. And if I don't finish it, it's not. there's like one Lucy hanging around right which maybe we'll see the light of day we'll see oh my god i know it takes me so long

squeeze out these old nuggets right takes me years it's like not even that long did you do the you did the whole album with jimmy right i did the whole album with jimmy yeah and i can't believe i just called him by the first name i know i know whatever because i like kind of it's jimmy stack right yeah like so in my head i was like oh what if that's not his last name so i just won't by jimmy

It's great. I love it. But how did you guys meet? How did that, how did you come together? We met because I sort of like saw his name and the credits of a few. I'm a real, like, genius lurker. And they would like see people in the credits of things. And he just like worked on a couple of things they thought were really cool. And yeah, at the start of 2022, I just met with him and was like, I think that like we're supposed to make like generational bangers together.

so intense he was like right right I was like I think some of us just have that in us and we have a duty to do it I was like it's our obligation he was like cool okay let's try something

what did he think of the sorry did I just interrupt you no not at all freak the fuck out perfect what did he think of the Washington how did you come up with like the Washington Park Square Park idea

was he there for that no he wasn't there for that which is sad for him but um he uh yeah how did we come up with it well i so i'm in the park every day um i think it's like an amazing thing about living in new york city that um there are these spaces that are sort of private but shared you know you'll see people like sitting in the park kind of like having their own moment um next to a whole lot of other people and i think that's like why you live in a city like New York.

And yeah, I'm just like I'm in that park. I'm literally every day, whether I'm reading, whether I'm taking a call or listening to voice notes or texting people back or just like sitting looking at the fountain. I love watching the skaters when the fountain's off. And it's just like this like cool built in stage, you know, and like right where the fountain is. And there's always people performing in the park. and I was like, you know, this is all it is.

Like, I'm so privileged to have the kind of like level of interest that I have. But at the end of the day, the bravery of anyone standing in a park and performing, like it's exactly that. That's what's happening when I put something out, you know. So I wanted to like, I wanted to feel that vulnerable in that, like, I don't know. yeah just kind of like I felt vulnerable standing in the fucking park. Of course, yeah. Being like, here's my song.

Right, right. It's actually quite a crazy feeling, you know. I was literally walking there and then it got shut down for a second. So I was like, okay, I guess I'll just go to dinner. And then I checked my phone and I was like, cool. So she went back. Where did you go for dinner? I went to, where did I go to dinner?

I went to this, uh, Sartiano's. Oh. It was like this Italian place. What's your favorite restaurant in the city? My favorite wristro? I was scared to say it because I love it so much. I don't want to, we can bleep it out.

Okay, okay. It's a Japanese restaurant. Okay, so I've never heard of it. So we're going to bleep that out. To save it for you. Save my restaurant. It's my obsession. Do you love Japanese food?

I love Japanese. I'm like, I'm vulnerable. I'm like bleep my wrist on. Yeah, I love Japanese food. I'm trying to think of other. restaurants that I like in the city. I don't know. It's quite hectic.

It is very hectic. Like dinner. I'm like, wow. Yeah. Shit, you know, never making a res. Like, I don't quite. Right. I'm always behind.

Right. Yeah. How long have you lived in the city for? I moved in 2021. I got my place. I bought it off a FaceTime. I had a FaceTime tour. And I was like, seems awesome.

Quite a like bold way to purchase property. But I love it so much. I love living in the city. It was so good for me. I like, because I'm such a little, like, internal being. Like, I can really tuck away. And, yeah, I think just it forces me to get out there. And I find it, like, super cool sentence.

I find New York City super inspiring. But just like in the way of like seeing what everyone's wearing, you know, you see the fashion change like in like a day. Right. All of a sudden you're like, oh, people are wearing it slightly differently. Right. Or like, I don't know. Yeah, I just, I find it very in Spur. It's just a cool city.

And I think it's cool in your 20s to like, you know, let it all hang in New York. I don't know if I'll be there forever, but I really love it. Do you think you'll go back? Do you miss it? Yeah, I was just there. I love it, but growing up there for me is so different than my experience with it now. I don't know if you feel the same way with New Zealand. But, like, I hated it growing up.

I hated it because I, like, I was like, I hated my, like, just, I hated my, like, how I was. Like, I hated, I was so uncomfortable in my own skin. I, like, didn't go out. Like, I, like, well, I wanted to go out. It wasn't that I didn't want to go out. It was like, it was just, like, to grow up in New York. It's like, I looked like a. baby so my fake ID didn't work and then like like a baby no I did so like these places would be like I'd

go with all my girlfriends and they'd be like yeah you need to go home and I so I was like I hate this city I hate the city and then now when I go back I have the best time like I go on dates and I see people I actually find like dating and romance to be like much more alive in New York than it is in Los Angeles right so for that reason I will say like yeah I would like to settle down in New York but um Like my whole life is here. My family is here. My best friends are here. Right.

Everyone I work with is here. And it would just be so hard for me to leave. And I also feel like I'm that type of person. I don't know if you also feel this way. But it's like I hate wherever I'm at in the moment. And I romanticize everywhere else. Like, you know what I mean? Got it.

Got it. So when I'm in New York, I'm like, I miss L.A. And then when I'm in L.A., I'm like, I miss New York. You know? It'll always be there. You know, you can pop back. Okay. I have a question.

And I, it's been eating me. alive for years is melodrama a concept album in the sense that it takes place over one house party wow i love um i mean good christie kind of kind of i definitely like was like throwing a lot of parties at my house and I liked the like natural arc of a party and how it can feel like a sort of like

opera or play or something there's like the peak and then it all falls apart and then it like there's like hope at the end I don't know I definitely like yeah there's like some of that arc to it but I don't know

yeah I also just like I think I was quite like drama that I And it's just like, I wanted like, I liked like the danger of like a concept. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Concept album, like, it just seemed cold. When I told my best friend, I was like, so melodrama, takes place over one house party. She dropped her phone. She said, okay.

Like, what do you? I remember, oh, God. I'm so crazy that you say that sometimes you feel like you don't have an impact because, like, your music is some of the most music I remember exactly where I was. like it was during COVID and my best friend had never heard perfect places and she was in the bathroom and I was sitting on the couch and I put it on and she swung the door open and she said what the fuck is this? And I said it's perfect places and I just will never for it's one of my favorite moments of

my entire life and like I just share so much of that. I feel like I'm sorry I feel like it's just me like regurgitating how much I love your stuff. But like it really like I don't know when else I'm going to be to be able to do this so I just have to do it now. I appreciate this so much, truly. No, it's so beautiful. This episode of Therapus is brought to you by booking.com. Booking dot, yeah! Once again, I am so grateful that booking.com is the sponsor for this episode because once again, we used it.

We are going to Denver tomorrow. We have nowhere to stay. And Matt, once again, pulled up booking.com, typed in what we needed, whether that be walking distance, whether that be a terrace, whether that be a tub. Shout out Meredith from Salt Lake City. whether that be anything you could want you can put in and it will show you options and it really takes the stress way about anything everything like i used to get so stressed out when we wouldn't have rooms booked because matt does everything so last minute and like i'm just not the type of person to do that but with booking dot com it makes it so easy because i know that we will always find something you can also book

vacation rentals you can book car rentals like anything you need to make the vacation as full and as complete as possible booking dot com has obviously also we're booking for like six different people on my crew. So it's so easy to find an accommodation that works for everybody because like booking for a lot of people can be really difficult, especially when you're just going through the hotel website or like looking up individual hotels. So going on booking.com and being able to like kind of search everything all at once for what you need is just it couldn't be more helpful for our tour.

If I can find my perfect stay on booking.com, anyone can find exactly what you're booking for on booking.com. Booking dot yeah. Book today on the site or in the app. What are you therapist about today? What am I therapist about? Like, what are you angry about? What am I angry about?

I'm angry. Wow. Okay, well, I am not supposed to have my period today. I have my period today because I'm, like, taking spironylactone for my skin, and it's, like, not really working, so I've gone up the dose. And I, like, going up the dose. And like going up the dose is like fucking with like now I have my period. And I'm like, I just feel like women's health is like not.

I'm like this is like years behind where it should be. It drives me fucking crazy. I'm like, I've had this whole journey of like coming off my birth control. And it's my hormones. Everything's been so insane. I'm like, how do we still, how is this all so kind of mysterious? So that I'm like, let's get it together, modern medicine. I know.

They probably will probably take them forever to do it as well. Yeah. Whatever you, whatever you do, you're killing it. Like, I'm proud of you for, like, listening to your body because it's quite hard to do. I only started listening to my body like two years ago. I was like, wow, she's telling me something. Like, I can hear if I just keep quiet, I can hear. What do you mean, like, listen to your body?

Like, how did you, like, learn how to, I feel like I don't listen to my body. So I am curious how to do it. It's hard. It's so, so hard. And I, like, had no idea. I don't know. There's just like all this information that if you like just sit tight and listen, like she's actually telling you a lot.

Right. And I feel like, yeah, it can be quite, for me it was like very long and slow and gradual. And it would just be about like listening over like a month and being like this month feels different to the last month. And here's maybe why. Like you just kind of have to chill it out and find some stillness, which is so hard. like I, you know, still really struggle. But I'm like, just listen. She'll tell you.

You know. This is the craziest thing. It's like, I always say this to friends. This is my like new, like, advice thing. I'm like, you know. They'll be like, should I? What is it? Should I do this?

Should I do this? I'm like, you actually already know the answer. Like, so just listen. It's in there. Like everything about your life, you know. You actually know what it's meant to be, you know. How do you distinguish, like, Do you have, like, deal with, like, anxiety and stuff?

Not really. I mean, I, like, definitely at the moment, like, to wake out in the mornings. Right. Oh, yeah, I used to have that. Yeah. But I'm actually, like, not, I, not really. Because sometimes for me, it's, like, I have. It's existential for me.

Right. Like, I have this, like, gut feeling, and I'm like, is that a gut feeling? Or is that anxiety? Right, right. Like, I can't tell. But, like, hopefully, like, when I'm, I'm able to, like, help distinguish it. But have you ever been, like, like, found yourself in a situation where you're like,

I can't tell which one it is? Totally, yeah. No, I mean, I make mistakes all the time. I'm constantly like, yeah. Why didn't I? But it is usually that I didn't listen to myself. Or that I, this is my other obsession is not going too fast. Like I think often we make a decision that doesn't totally represent us because we

move too fast. You're kind of like making the decision. from like not a grounded place or whatever I think sometimes I'm like slow it down sirs like yeah just like walk a little bit slower and see how it feels right yeah so I don't know that can help I think I need to slow down slow it down yeah listen do you like like your later 20s like are you liking your later 20s more than your middle or earlier 20s I absolutely love it I am completely obsessed from when I turned 26 but really early 27, I'm obsessed.

It gets so much better. It's sick. Like, this is the best time of life. I kind of, 25 is quite difficult for me. Yeah, it's hard. I hope it's being good to you. But 28, 29, like, I just can't wait. I feel like the next, like, 10 years, honestly.

I'm just like, this is a prime of life for sure. It's so sick because you're finally, like, confident enough in yourself. You're like, I am hot. I see it now. I'm hot. Like, I just before that, every year was like, I would see a picture of me from a year ago and be like, oh, you were gorgeous. Oh, is that not the worst feeling in the entire world? You know?

And like, you were so interesting and you had cool stuff going on and you just got like lost in the like day to day. So I feel like I finally have like enough of a sense of myself. I don't know. Yeah, you just like tap into it. And you're, yeah, you're just hot. It's cool. sex is good, you know, you just kind of like, it all like clicks together. I'm really excited for that.

And I've like never been excited to like grow older, but like I'm really excited to do like 27, 28. You're going to be your hottest. Like, I feel it too. I'll do this again in three years and you're going to be like, oh my God, like I get it. I, because I look, when you said that, I was like, I look at old photos of myself from high school. And I was like, I thought I was the ugliest motherfucker in the room at the time. And it's like, I want to like hit myself. It's like, why did I think that?

Truly. So it's like I'm really trying to work on like, I really try to remind myself in the moment, like, especially when I go on dates and stuff, it's like, in two years, you're going to be like, you were hot. So just feel it now as opposed to, like, I was actually thinking about it literally this morning. And I was like, because I wasn't like a very sexual person for like my entire high school. And then I was like trying. And then I was like thinking about my freshman year of college and how I like, it's like when you don't like view yourself as sexual or. you don't even like view yourself as hot like no one else around you is gonna it's like such an energy thing truly i know no it has to come from you and it's also this thing of like i feel like i was

so conditioned at school to be like this is hot and everything else outside of that is not hot you're like no actually just someone who is themselves is beautiful and hot like it kind of is that simple you know, whether you have, like, fucked up skin or, you know, whatever the thing is about you, like, if you feel it, like, you will just emanate hotness. Right. It really is, like, an energy. I always say, like, when, like, when I hook up with someone, I always say, like, which is few and far between, but I always say, like, I haven't had sex in two years.

I know. I know. I know. Wait, what, tell me. Talk about it. Do you talk about this all the time? No, like, like, I, so basically what happened was I lost my virginity when I, I'm really just going into it, but like, we can cut anything you're not comfortable. No, no, are you down for me to tell you this story?

Go, go, of course. Okay, so like, I lost my virginity when I was 21 and like, it was with a much older guy and we like didn't use protection. Oh, okay. And then so like for the next two years after that, I had like this like crazy internal panic that I had like all these diseases. And then like, I finally like got like tested for diseases and they were like, yeah, you're like, yeah, you. you're good like you're good and then like i had sex one more time and then i was like no no no no and then um i just haven't really had sex since that so i think i've only had sex twice and it's like but when i but i'm trying to like get myself back out there and then it's like once i started doing

this i started feeling like i i like to make everyone laugh but then um by like making a fool of myself but then i have this like juxtaposition where i'm like is everybody making fun of me and then it's very hard to separate in the bedroom, and it's very hard to separate, like, romantically. So, like, I don't know if, like, I don't, I don't know. I, it's probably so different for you because you, like, write, like, music and stuff, but, like, for, like, when I'm, because people are laughing at, like, because I'm, like, my goal of the day is, like, to make somebody laugh,

it's hard to separate, like, romantically. So I think that's maybe why I haven't had sex. Wow. So, so it would be, like, it would make you feel, like, really closed up. if that person laughed at you. Like you're scared they're going to laugh at you. But you want, you want them to laugh at you?

No. Like, no, it's like a lot of my videos there's like me moving my body. It's like me look like like I like when I do my podcast on the road like I make fun of old photos of myself that I look bad in. No,

but like if like a potential like romantic interest like you're scared of them laughing at you. Is that the feeling? Like scared of them laughing at like my body. Yeah. At your body. Yeah. Oh my God.

Darling. You're so beautiful. No one. And like they won't, people won't laugh at you. Oh, it's just hard to, like, tell yourself because, like, I don't know. I know. You're so gorgeous and hot, though. Like, just objectively.

Like, I'm like, you're gorgeous. And you must have so many people hitting you up, right? I have one right now. You have one. Wait, are you kissing? I, recently I am. So that's why I feel like. Do a lot of kissing.

I feel like a tad lighter. Do I? It's because I'm, like, maybe catching a dick here and there. Okay, fabulous. Not like in the. Not like, yeah. Yeah. you know, but like, but like everything else and like I'm trying to talk to people.

I'm trying to get to know people. That's all sex though. Like I don't, I think you should like take the juice out of like sex being one thing. Like it's all sex, you know, kissing can be sex if you wanted to be like kissing is like so intimate and fabulous and like I love kissing. Just kiss so much and like eventually like you'll just get like hungry for like, like more I just like need more right but just go so slow like don't rush yourself listen like just be like what you need right now right in there you know yeah just like take your time yeah oh my god it's gonna be great like I feel well I feel like this summer I have a good feeling about it hopefully

it is it is a Lord summer it is a Lord summer and I I feel like last summer was brought summer so summer like I was like partying and getting myself out there and now it's lord summer where I'm gonna like party but like really like feel into like my thoughts and emotions and myself and like yearn and like feel everything yeah I love that my summer is one of yearning yes I want it I want to like jump down the streets of New York to Virgin and like it's perfect it's right it's gonna happen what do you listen to like what is the music you listen to and what do you watch I I am so curious Oh my God. Okay. Well, it's funny. Like, I actually didn't listen to, like, a ton of music in the last year. And I listened to, like, stuff that I've listened to a lot. Like, just for sort of, like, comfort, I don't know. But I, what do I listen to? Someone was wrong about this other day. I always find it so hard to answer this question.

The explosion. No worries. Yeah. Um, uh, what do I listen to? You know who I love, actually, who I think is so cool, is Tate McCray. I love her. I love her.

Yeah. She's so cool. She's so good. She's everything. She's incredible. Yeah. I love her. I listened to her album recently.

I was like, you're so awesome. She's such a performer too. Insane. She's so captivating. Can she not be that good at dance? Like, it's quite rude. I find it quite rude.

I'm like, chill. Have you guys met? No, no. I would actually like be like, hi. She would be the same. You love her. She's the kindest, sweetest. Like, she's the best person ever.

Wow. And she's a very, very big fan of yours. Wow. What did I listen to? I'm just, yeah, it's been a weird moment for me with pop culture. Like, I'm, like, kind of bad at watching movies. I'm horrible at watching movies. I watch really random movies.

Like, I'm kind of interested in the accountant, too. I'm like, I'm like... That is so random. Like, I don't understand this about myself. I like, like... I saw like Norsevaratu that was sick. Oh yeah, that was cool. It's a baby girl, you know.

I don't know. I'm like, what is on? Have you? What's on? Like, what do you, like, I have a, like, what's your vibe of like a TV show? Because, like, I can, like, put you on in a certain direction if you're looking for it. My vibe is like, see, I don't know. I'm like, I'm watching the rehearsal, the Nathan Fielder.

I love Nathan Fielder. Show. I think he's really cool. I watched The White Lotus, like everyone. I didn't watch. siverance which maybe I would be into you would but I have a show for you that I think you would love talk to me you find if it's foreign and like subtitled bet you're i was like no yeah no i know i know i was like it's german yeah oh it's called dark oh okay and it's okay so basically all you need to know is that

a boy goes missing in a small german town it's a trilogy of seasons so it's three seasons okay it is the most beautifully shot beautifully told story i've ever seen in my entire life like wow i know you will love it wow Fuck. Okay. Sick. It is on, it's about time. Wow. And, like, love and like, I know it's, I'm being very broad, but I just don't want to give too much away.

It is really so amazing and it feels like, like, if I'm, like, really thinking of it, like, I can see, like, your music, like, playing over it. Wow. Yeah. Okay, tight. I'm going to watch that. It's amazing. It's amazing.

What are you watching? Right now, I'm, I'm re-watching Glee. Oh, my God. Glee. Glee was so cool. Glee was the coolest. Wow. What season.

I'm about to be done with season one, so they're about to be at regional. I'm so excited. So sick. And I'm really pumped. So I'm rewatching Glee. I just watched overcompensating. Oh my gosh. Yeah, you need to watch it.

Which, oh, it's amazing. It's amazing. They have a great scene where they, I think it's team. Oh, we heard. Yeah. Where he's like something about like, he's like, yeah, Lord's hot. He's like pretending to be straight. Yeah, it's amazing.

It's amazing. And then, God, what else? What else am I watching? Yeah, I'm watching Glee. I'm watching, um, what else am I watching, Louise? I just, oh, I just watched the leftovers, which was beautiful. I'm obsessed with the leftovers. That's so sick.

You've seen the leftovers? It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. And I feel like underrated. Beyond underrated. It's very cool, very cool of you. Thank you. What do you think about the ending when she's like, do you watch the whole thing?

I watch the whole thing. Do you remember at the end where she's like, yes. Fucked me up. Fucked me up. Like, unbelievable. Special sharp. It's really special.

Oh my God, I can't believe you've seen the leftovers. That's awesome as fuck. Very cool. Do you want to get into the Tell Me What's Wrongs? Yes, yes. Okay, so these, the Tell Me What's Wrongs are, plus he's right in, and they tell us what's wrong, essentially, and we give them advice.

And we, like, for example, like, and we prescribe them things. So, like, if someone was like, I keep wanting to go back to this guy, it was so bad, but I can't, I'm having trouble remembering the bad. Oh my God. I prescribe Supercut. Oh, okay, okay. So we're prescribing a small, media or anything or any, a book, whatever. Okay, I'm ready.

I want to be a singer so badly, and I know that it's what I'm meant to do. I just can't seem to put myself out there as I have massive stage fright. All I want to do is share my music with the world, but I'm literally my own barrier. What do I do? Like, what was it like for you to first overcome that stage fright? Oh, my God. It was so hard. It's so, it's so, I tried everything.

I truly tried everything. Something that really helped me actually was someone said to me that being super anxious can sometimes be your body confusing excitement or aliveness for like danger. Because it's so activating. You're like, am I safe? And I think sometimes it's just about being like, in pursuit of like my most exciting, beautiful life, I'm going to like feel this like super intense feeling. Right. You know.

And just remind yourself like this feeling in my chest is actually, it's like aliveness and excitement. But it's easier sitting there done. I had to like really do some crazy therapy to stop having stage right. Were you, were you scared to like put out your music when you were young? Or did you just like, or were you too young to even like kind of acknowledge the fact that like it was a scary thing to do? No, I wasn't scared of putting stuff out and I did love to perform. Like I did theater as a kid and stuff. It just like the actual performance.

I'm going to be sick. Yeah. Okay, wait, but what are we prescribing? For the stage fright thing, I would prescribe. Beta blockers, literal prescription. You know, I've never taken a beta blocker. Oh. Are they amazing?

I don't know. It wasn't strong enough for me. Okay. That's what I think it's going to be for me as well. I would actually prescribe like some like fresh air. Like sometimes they think like just like take a sick. Fresh air. Brings everything down a little. I kind of also prescribe like I know like like okay so I always describe like doing something scary.

No, no, no, no. I'm about to do what you just did. A cooking show. No, you can do it. You can no you can prescribe anything. I'm going to like prescribe jumping and. into cold water because when you, because I always describe like doing

something scary as like jumping into water and then like or like because then you're in the like and then at that point like you're wet and you're in the water. Yeah, get the shock. Yeah. So you just have to get the shock over. Yeah, yeah. Cold shock. So like jump into the cold water and kind of like try to imagine that as your music career. It's perfect. Yeah. Love.

I think my boyfriend is holding me back. We've been dating for three years and moved across the country together and now I've been living together for the past seven months, but there's part of me that it's urinating for more self-acclination without a partner. Help. I prescribe breaking up. I unfortunately prescribe breaking up. Yeah. You will.

You probably are being held back and you, I do believe that there's no substitute for being alone. Like you just have to, if you feel like you need to take a second find yourself, you nothing else will do that except for being alone and really like just seeing how that feels what would I prescribe what's like inspo about like being single trying to think of a well actually the movie someone great which I always prescribe but I really think it's a really good movie because she was being held back by her partner okay and um that's actually the movie where um I really fell in love with Supercut oh my god so beautiful have you seen someone great

I actually haven't seen it but I did hear that it was it's like in in this really beautiful montage of their relationship and it's like awesome. The Devways Prada, I just remembered. She's like kind of held back. Yeah, she's being held back. That's my favorite movie of all time. Is it really? I've seen it.

It's the movie I've seen the most. Me too. I'm obsessed with the Devways Prater. Oh my God, me too. What do you think about the ending? What do you mean? Like when she leaves the job. I'm always like, hmm.

You wanted to like. I want her to stay and like be like Miranda. I think it's right. I think it's right. I love her little outfit at the, the end when she's like, I'm not in fashion anymore. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, low-key outfit, but still, like, you can tell she's like.

Still, like, fashion. Yeah, yeah. Oh, God, I love that movie. Did he was proud of actually, because that boyfriend is so hot, but he's holding her back. He really is, and he gets mad at her for missing his birthday. Yes. Which is, like, valid, but, like, she was like, yes, iconic. Oh.

I had a huge crush on a guy, and now he's dating my best friend. The worst part, I told her they'd be cute together. I've never experienced that before This is the kind of shit that I would do Yeah I would be like you guys you know What is like the psychology behind that Like trying to be such a cool chill girl

You know that you like Stab yourself in the back Right I mean this is every rom-com Yeah it is So I would prescribe a rom-com I want to prescribe something that's like I think you just have to go in there

And like really spill all And just like let it all hang and be like, I'm obsessed with you. Like, oh my God, I've never done that before. Have you ever done that before? No, but I think just like blow it up. See what happens? I don't know.

Yeah. You could lose it all, but. It's terrible advice. No, it's good advice. It's advice that I've never done and I probably should have. I'm just like life is too short. Like, you can't, what are you going to do? Not say how you feel.

You know, what's going to happen? Right. I'm clearly in a real like, fuck it mode. No way, I'm obsessed. But that's because that's, I feel like that's, like the late 20s vibe. You know what I mean? It's like whatever.

Are you going through your Saturn return right now? People say this. I think that I went through it prematurely. Yeah. Probably about to get fucked up by it. But no, I, 25, 26 was very difficult for me in a way that felt like what my girlfriends would say to me about Saturn returns. So time will tell, I guess.

I feel like I've arrived somewhere in. It's like a cool settled feeling to where I am. So we'll see. Do you remember a moment where you like finally felt like, oh, like I'm out of that bad period? Yes. I feel like it was sometime last year. Right at the end of 23, I was like, okay, I've got like one layer of skin. Like I just felt sealed over, like, but it was so fragile.

And then I think 24 it's sunk in a bit more and I felt like, okay, yeah, like I'm, it's coming together. I can like see who I'm meant to be and all these like, you know, big moves that are so like painful.

They like, they were paying off and I finally felt like I was like, okay, this is good things that are happening, you know. Did you feel, because I think I might have seen you say somewhere that like when you did um the girl so confusing remix with charlie like that was like this like really cathartic release that kind of like led you into like finishing this album it was so cathartic and amazing i like i'm just so um grateful to her like what a cool just everything about that was so cool was so it was so vulnerable like i just have all the

respect in the world for her um having that vulnerability and like sending it my way, like, because I'm, I was the perfect person to receive that because I was like, finally at a place in my life where I could be like, okay, like, I've hurt someone and I need to explain myself and make it right with them. And through that, like, something could be really cool for other people to, like, witness as well. But, like, if that had hit me, you know, six months or a year before, I would have been so frozen by shame and it's so like hard getting called out. Yeah. Like it's, you know, I just don't think that I would have been able to, I don't know, go there or something.

I think people were like so, like, people so admired how you like, you like received the feedback and like validated the feedback and then was like, but this is like why I was the way I was. Yeah. I think it, like, was, like, so healing for, like, everybody. It was, like... It was healing for me. It was legitimately healing for me. I, like... It's also just so, like...

It is so fucking hard being a girl. It's so... It is so confusing. And, um, I... Yeah, had just, like, never had a version of that conversation before, and I'd always wanted to, and, um... Yeah, it was... I just, like, it was just amazing.

I'm so grateful, like... what a cool what a cool girl yeah i like can't believe like that's our pop princess like it's just so perfect it's it is so fucking perfect it's amazing when you got so how did it when you you got the you got the song

in a voice memo i got the voice no yeah and then you like did you call did you call her and be like this is how i feel or did you literally just send back the lyrics yeah no i was like um i was like hey says i'm just waking up in new york um I'm so sorry, like, let me hit you back.

Like, we're going to, this is going to be sweet. Like, let me just. Yeah. You know, I was like, we sort of sent a couple voice notes. I was like, can you get me the stems? Like, kind of that day, I was like, I sort of had this feeling like it would just be easier if I just expressed it on the song, you know, and then it would come together. And, yeah, that day started working on it.

I think I recorded it the next day. and yeah I was like hey I've recorded something do you want to hear it should we talk first or should I just send you the lyrics and she was like send me the lyrics and I was like okay I just find them over wow that was that yeah it was so so beautiful so amazing to to get feedback like I honestly think it's one of the coolest most loving things like in a friendship or a relationship we're saying someone can be like, hey, like, it's making me feel like this, you know.

Doesn't have to be like an attack on you. It's just like, this is how it's making me feel. You're like, oh my God, it's making you feel like that. Right. You know, I just, it's so incredible that she was able to do that for me. And now we like, ride. It's real. Like, we're like, it's for life.

Like, you guys talk all the time? We don't like talk all the time, but there's just like a depth of like, like, we have each other's back. for life. Yeah. It's one of those. That's beautiful. So cool.

Do you have a favorite lyric in that verse? In my verse? Yeah. I mean, I love you walk like a bitch. Me too. Someone had said that to me when I was like 11, you know, 10. And it was just, sometimes you just hold something in your whole life. And you're like, I can like let it fly free in a song.

And always other people are going to scream it and like, it will be. so cathartic and amazing. Yeah, maybe that. And I am quite proud of it. It's just self-defense until you're building a weapon. Yeah, that's, don't clear. Like, that's like a bar. I heard that.

I was like, hmm. Like, you know what I mean? I was like, yeah. I like to meme that I saw of it. It was like the Oppenheimer guy, but sort of like with like a crazy filter on. Yeah. Crazy lips and like eyelashes and so. I'm going to show you for it to work.

Yeah, I do need to see this. I was like, is the bomb going? off. Were you nervous to put that out though? Was I nervous? No, I think it was cool. I was psyched. I was psyched because at that point

like, yeah, Charlie had like, we'd like totally like talked about everything and, you know, it was all good and it felt cool. I was like, this is awesome. And it was such a sick, like just a dream to get like invited into brat. Like it was just the moment. And, you know,

And yeah, to be like, my name was called. So I was like, okay, I'm coming. I loved it. It was amazing. What was your Brat Summer like? Well, I was in London quite a lot. And then I was in New York. And then here, just in the studio,

had really bad acne. That was a bummer. I was, like, kissing a lot and eating a lot of fruit. And just, like, listening to my demos and stressing out about the album. That was my Brat Summer. And, like, hanging with it. traveling and stuff that's amazing yeah what was yours my brat summer i was um i was partying a lot okay

like all i was traveling i was partying i i was like i was like just like like like you know like i felt like very free to like experiment it was like my summer of yes it was like my summer of like oh i'm gonna say yes to this i'm gonna say yes to this so cool and then i want to take and then what i was saying was like I want to take that from this that summer bring it to this summer that's what I want to do the album is the album will help you I'm so excited I really I'm so oh my god it's like I I love feeling like I can't fucking wait and like I literally can't fucking wait like I like don't know what to do about it I was like but it comes out it's so it's so like kismet and perfect it comes out on like one of I'm doing um radio city for my for Oh my God, that's insane.

On the day this album comes out. Oh my God. And so I'm going to listen to it like all day. I already know I'm going to wake the fuck up just blasting it. Oh my God. That's so amazing. It's perfect. It couldn't be more perfect.

Radio City, Jake. That's insane. I know. I'm really excited. That's a moment. I know. How is the tour? It's great.

It's hard when I don't feel like I did a good job. Oh, yeah. Like, you know, I mean like it's just like, and like sometimes like, If I can't fill a room completely, like, I'll look at an empty seat or, like, if I see somebody leave a little early. I'm like, totally, I get it. Like, you have to leave. Like, I've left early before, too.

But it's just, like, it's moments like that where it's like, it feels like like a shot. Like, it's like, oh my God. And because you're like, you're essentially, like, dancing on stage for everybody to, like, look at and laugh or, like, enjoy and feel. And then, like, if you feel in that moment that you're not entertaining someone, it's like, so it's like I have, like, the highest highs. And then I have, like, really low, low, low. How is touring for you? Do you like touring? I love touring, yeah.

And it was like a journey getting there. But wait, I'm still thinking about your... Oh, okay. Because I see the parallel between your, like, intimacy and... Oh, you do? ...entertaining people and feeling this, like, pressure to entertain, and then feeling like it's so vulnerable

when someone maybe doesn't receive... Yes, yeah. Like, there's something... There's some similarity here. But I also think, like... Because have you... To it is a... Have you toured much before?

This is my second tour. So I toured for the first time this past fall. Okay. And now I'm doing the second tour. And I'm a lot better at it than I was the first round. I'm a lot more comfortable sharing parts of my life. I'm a lot more comfortable talking to the audience. Right.

Just like a lot more comfortable on stage. I'm not scared anymore. But I do have those moments. Like when I see an empty seat, I always think like, oh my God, does everybody else around that seat think about how that seat is empty? Have you ever had that before? For melodrama, I booked an arena tour and like a lot of those shows were like half full. Really?

We had made this like beautiful production and just like there were some nights where I was like, this is awkward. Like and people were kind of like writing about at the time. It was so vulnerable for me and I didn't book. This is my first arena shows since then because I was, I had like such damage from like that feeling that you're talking about. People don't think about. the fact that the person on stage whose name is on the banner is looking at every single

like you say yeah someone walking out someone yeah some seat not being full it's so vulnerable I completely understand it's it's just like and melodrama is such like a vulnerable album so you know you're like literally like laying spilling it and they look over and there's just like these massive drapes like covering the like empty You know, the worst is when I, well, I'll ask, like, wait, so what's, how many did we sell? And they'll tell me, and they'll be like, and I'll be like, okay, but what's the cap? And they'll be like, well, we scaled it. So, like, yeah, and I'm like, what does that mean?

And then I'll look up and it's like, they blacked out the seeds. Yeah, the little drape. And I'm like, you just have to, you have to just be like, oh my God, it's insane how many people are here. Yes. It's incredible. It's so amazing. But people are paying money to come and it's a weird feeling. It's so amazing.

It's incredible. And they love it. and they're not going to, they don't ever think you did a bad job. Like, it's just a mate, they love it. You know, you couldn't do a bad job. Like, oh, I really want you to, yeah. I really want you to see one of my shows if you're ever around.

I want to come. I know. I know. I love to laugh. I think you will laugh. I talk a lot about, like, my childhood. It's funny, it's funny. What do you most excited about for your tour?

I'm so excited for my tour. I'm still excited. and complete fucking disbelief that it's sold out. Like I can't really, I feel so grateful. Like, I've just cried. Oh, yesterday I was just crying. So moved. I'm psyched.

I actually love building a show. It's like, yeah, one of my favorite things about my music is translating it live. This music is really physical. And I think it's just going to be. it's full self. How fun. We tour. Yeah.

It's amazing. Like that's incredible. It's pretty amazing. You're like I'm on tour. I can't. I'm going on tour. Do you bus it? Do you take the bus?

I bus. Yeah. Do you? Yeah. You bus? It's so cute. I love the bus. I love the bus.

Do you have your own sheets? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Good. Yeah. Do you use the shower? I used it once.

And I used it once in the shower like spurted in my face like across my entire, everything in my room. And I was like, I can't do that again. I use the showers at the venues, all the time. Nice, yeah. It's kind of crazy to shower on the bus, but I do.

Do you really? I shower on the moving bus. What? Just like holding on. Yeah, no, no, I'm fully shower. Do you feel like you get driving down the highway? Good sleeps on the bus?

I do. But I think tour is like, just like how good is your sleep gonna be? That's what I said. Yeah, you're also like so, after you like leave and if it's a good show, you're like so like on awake. No, totally.

How do you like bring it down? I take like at OPM. Oh. Yeah. Like, I literally take like Advilpilm of Benadryl or like a gabapentin and like, I'll like fall asleep. No, yeah. It's the only way to go. Yeah, it's hard.

No, totally. I feel that. Yeah. How do you calm down after? I smoke weed. Yeah. Did you ever go through a period with smoking weed where you didn't smoke for a while? So, okay, the thing about me is that I, like right now, I probably last smoked like three weeks ago.

And before that, probably two or three. weeks before that. Like I actually really, I would never smoke more than like twice a week. Like if I smoke three times in a week, I'd be like, whoa, girl, you need to chill. I find weed to be like an incredibly, like, inspiring, kind of like world opening thing.

I'm never smoking weed and just sitting at home. I'm going off like a two-hour walk. I'm like in the sun. Like I don't even smoke weed on like a rainy or cloudy day. Like it's like a very like the sunshining, like that's go. So I'm like lucky. Like I've never,

it's ever gotten to a place where I felt like, I think people probably think I smoke way more weed than I do. But I like, really like, like, and especially like in a moment like right now, I have to be careful. I'm like, I spoke the other day and I was like, sis, the portal is open. It's not.

But that way, the next day I felt so bad. Yeah. And we were actually editing the, what was that video? And yeah, I was just like, Terry, this is a day. disaster. We made a huge mistake. I was working with Terry.

It's incredible. It was so, so fun to make that video together and just like shoot it on his phone. That's crazy that you shot the whole thing on. On a phone. And you shot it that day in the Washington Square Park thing, right? And we went to the edit that night

and we were at the edit till three and we put out the next day. That's insane. Yeah, it's incredible. Yeah. Oh my God. I'm trying to think. I'm like so...

Yeah, what else we got for me? I know, I feel like I... I just, because I knew this was going to happen to me where it's like, I feel like I've known you my whole life, and then I have all these things I want to say, and then you're right here, and now it's like... You're killing it. This is perfect.

Really? Yes, of course. Are you guys having fun? Okay, cool, because I'm going to freak out about this for the next two weeks. So, like, respectfully, I'm going to be like, was this fine? Like, I'm honestly curious. Do you ever go back and, like, um, like, listen to you?

to your old work and think like I wish I could tell this version of me like this like if you ever like listen to pure heroin and you're like I wish at the time uh the Lord then knew this that I know now wow um I I don't really listen to my own music um but on tour when you are listening to it you know every night I feel like I like wow you're really good going through this thing, you know. But I feel like every album is just sort of that. Like, I'm just trying to talk to a version of myself who is vulnerable in that moment and, like, needs to hear from herself. Yeah.

I don't know. But, yeah, no, for sure. I mean, it's so, it's so funny having this, like, record of, like, all of your vulnerabilities and, like, you know, like certain songs come from a place of like, like liability was so, it was like, I was like, triggered basically. Yeah. I was just like, oh my God.

And like being hit in that place like made me write that song. And I look back on that now and I'm like, you know, it's like a foundational feeling for me being like, okay, I'm going to, this is the bit of myself that I'm going to reveal that's going to be too much. Like, that feeling just keeps, you never, like, lose that fear. But you, you try and make something that is like a balm or, you know, that makes you feel like, no, no. It's okay to be myself to the fullest, you know, the public journal.

Yeah, it really, it really is a public journal. Do you have, like, a, like, a favorite memory over these past however many years, like, in the studio when you, like create like because it reminded me when I watched that video of you getting the drums right for what was that I was like do you have do you have any other moments like that where you remember feeling like this like explosion of like we we did it we just did that we did it I had that actually um when we wrote team I was like wow I'm so happy um because it is so like this is yeah it's just the amazing thing about pop music is it's just so um yeah you just like get the catharsis in this crazy way like i heard that

chorus and i said this works on me this is doing something so right amazing and i know it's proud well lord well do i call you ella ella yeah ella okay okay because i was meaning to ask that the entire time and now I'm just Ella um thank you so much for being here and doing this with me I cannot tell you how grateful I am before I let you go what did we learn today we learned to celebrate ourselves we learned to I don't know joy the little things we learned to that it's cool to be vulnerable and that that's where the magic is. And, yeah, I really want you to do a lot of kissing. That's what I want.

I think, I think I'm... That's what I'm taking away from this. I'm going to be checking in. If I can get your number after this, I'm going to text you every time I hook up with someone. Great, great. Yeah, so I just let me you know. Any excuse to text you. I think I learned

God, no, I just had it and now I just blanked because I think I got excited to get your number. But I think I learned, I learned to listen to your body. That's what I learned. I learned that it's important to listen to your body. Well, Ella, thank you for coming on therapist. I adore you.

I'm such a huge fan. And this is like the coolest thing never happened to me. Thank you so much for having me. Do you want to give a little bye pussies? Bye pussies. Yeah. 50-50 if my zippers up or down anymore. Take my pants off at home.

They come off easy. I'm like, I thought it was four hours I was walking around. Netflix is a joke presents. Nate Bargatsy, Big Dumb Eyes World Tour. A special live taping at Into a Dome. I think it's because I'm peeing so much longer. I watch young people come and go. I'm like, tell my family I'm okay.

Okay. Nate Bargatsy, May 9th and 10. Live at Into a Dill. Get tickets at Netflix is ajokefest.com.