There Are No Girls on the Internet - Activision Blizzard's toxic workplace for women: STUFF MOM NEVER TOLD YOU

Episode Date: December 3, 2021

Activision Blizzard, one of the largest and most influential gaming companies in the world, has a sexual harassment problem.  Bridget joined her friends Samantha and Anney at the podcast Stuff Mom Never Told You to talk through what we know about harassment and misogyny in gaming and what it means for all of us.  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than adds supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHeart's twice as large as the next two combined.

Learn how podcasting can help your business. Call 844-844-I-Hart. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano. It's our favorite time of the year on our podcast point game, the playoffs. We're digging into the biggest surprises of the season. And I'm looking back on some of my greatest playoff moments. If we didn't talk ever again, I was harmed.

You just understood. That's how personal it got. Wow. Then after that game seven, Marquis come in to you, he's like, you know I love you, dog. You know, it's all love. This was just playoffs. This was just basketball. So listen to Point Game on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

There are times when the mind becomes a difficult place to live. This is David Eagleman with the Inner Cosmos podcast. and for Mental Health Awareness Month, we'll talk with singer-songwriter Jewel about anxiety. I started living in my car, and then my car got stolen. I was having panic attacks. I was agoraphobic. This is a month of deeply personal and honest conversations

about what happens when the brain goes off course. Listen to Intercosmos on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There are no girls on the internet as a production of IHeart Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this is a show. This is there are no girls on the internet. Two weeks ago, the Wall Street Journal dropped a new report

detailing new allegations of sexual harassment, misogyny, and toxic sexism from the leadership at Activision Blizzard, the company behind games like Candy Crush, Call of Duty, and World of Warcraft, and one of the largest and most influential gaming companies in the world. I joined my friend Samantha and Annie at the podcast Stuff Mom Never Told You

to dig into what we know about how video game companies fail women and why it matters for all of us. And if you're a gamer, I want to hear from you. What is your experience as a gamer been like? Have you ever faced harassment while gaming? After you listen to the episode, let us know at hello at tangoati.com. Hey, this is Annie. And Samantha.

I'm welcome to Steph I'm Never Told You, a production of IHeart Radio. Today we are once again joined by our good friend and the amazing, wonderful, Bridget Todd. Thank you so much for joining us, Bridget. Oh, thanks for having me. Y'all always give me the most warm welcomes. I love the intros. Because we're so happy to have you. We are so excited to have you.

Yes. So Bridget, do you have any fun things on the horizon? Any plans coming up? Yes. Well, the most fun thing that I have on the horizon is that my partner and I do this thing every holiday season that we call Weirdo Christmas. And I actually hope I think that everybody should try it out. Weirdo Christmas is an activity that we do where after Thanksgiving but before Christmas,

we go on our own little solo trip to sort of, you know, have fun before the official holiday season. And we bring costumes and lights and just have a weird time. And it's just a fun way to sort of, if you're from a traditional family that does Christmas in a very traditional way, it can just be a fun way to counterbalance that. So weirdo Christmas, 2021, coming up. Very excited. Oh, I love it. What kind of costumes you got planned?

The last time I did this, I wore a fur hat and a fur vest and fur boots. It was like a fur theme. I think I had to double down on the fur again. Okay. Yeah. I'm into it. Yeah, I encourage people to like whatever, you know, your weirdness looks like, just because people are like weirdos or non-traditionalists doesn't mean that we can't also enjoy like holiday cheer and festivity. And so I used to always feel a little alienated around Christmas time, you know,

I felt like if I wasn't doing something super traditional around the holidays, I'm like you basically didn't have any way to celebrate. And that's not true because you can always celebrate weirdo Christmas. I love this. That's fantastic. Yeah, I will say, like, as a person who does not love the holidays in general, doing something completely off the cuff sounds better, especially if you can establish it yourself.

I will say Eddie and I seem to do kind of that for New Year's, where we dress up as something random. Like I have a couple of onesies that I like to put on and we will cheers each other through whether it's like us pictures or text but we're wearing costumes. Yes. I love it.

Are you going to do it this year? Usually. Yeah. I don't know why. We just kind of like we give up on going out. Let's do this instead. I think it's because New Year's is such a, I've had great New Year's,

but generally I feel like the pressure is very intense and it's always a mess. And so I was kind of like, I want to stay in. I'm going to read my fan fiction. And then it became we'll wear onesies and drink champagne at midnight and cheers each other. See, I love that because just because you're not somebody who is interested in spending hundreds of dollars to have a, you know, less than stellar night on New Year's Eve, doesn't mean that you should get to miss out on like New Year's Eve holiday merriment. Like that's exactly the, in the spirit of weirdo Christmas that you should like not wanting to do the, traditional thing that everybody does doesn't mean that you should just be boxed out of getting to,

you know, have festivity and merriment. So I like this. We need to, we need to roll in. We'll do weirdo Christmas, weirdo New Year's. Yes. A whole slate of weirdo holidays. We're like, let's get a calendar going. Yes. There we go. I'm going to be on Google's calendar. Let's go. I love it. I think we should sell one. Let's make money off this. So I also wanted to, before we dive into this topic, which I'm both very excited and very like anxious slash nervous slash angry to talk about

I wanted to talk about I'm a very big gamer I think a lot of the listeners know that I've always played video games and I've always played in quotes traditional video games being like Nintendo Super Nintendo PlayStation like those kind of console video games

and I have a lot of history and experience with that but I wanted to ask the both of you what your experience with gaming at large not just console gaming is. I've always thought that was one of the coolest things about you, Annie, is how into console gaming you are.

I wish that I was. I aspire to be. I don't really play much these days. When I was younger, I really liked World of Warcraft. Going back even further, I was very much into like Super Nintendo. When the pandemic first started, we got one of those.

I guess what do you, an emulator? I don't know what you call it, but like to be able to play old Sega games and old Super Nintendo games on our TV. And I remember, and I was like, oh my gosh, how much I loved, how much I loved and was obsessed with that was growing up. But these days, not, not so much. I'm so curious, Sam, what your relationship to gaming has looked like. I would be the boomer who did not understand and does not understand these games to the point that I still ask both Annie and my partner. I'm like,

okay, so the point of this game is ABCD and then just sit there and look at them puzzled. I do. That's a lot because I still have to ask, especially when it comes to console games, a lot of questions. I never really grew into that. I really cared about it much growing up. I did buy a switch during the pandemic because I was like, oh, well, I can play these games. So these games being Mario Party, where essentially it's just kind of a chance. And I get very mad at everyone about it because they all cheat. I'm pretty sure.

Mario Kart, same thing. I do like to announce how many times I fall off. because, again, I don't quite understand the buttons. Same thing with any of those kind of things. But I do enjoy it to an extent until I'm frustrated that I'm like, I don't know what y'all are doing. You keep telling me to push button this, this and this. That doesn't make sense.

My fingers don't do this. So that's how I feel about those games. But I've tried. I've grown to like them more and more. But I am more of a phone game person. And I always have. I did really enjoy, I guess the really first big game that I played, and I know we're going to talk a little bit about them was Candy Crush

that has since been taken off to make room for games that are the puzzle games that have a narrative in it. And we've talked about it previously on a Monday mini because those damn ads that we talked about that has those dramatic leaving somebody, cheating on somebody, murdering somebody apparently, had really reeled me into being like, what is this game?

I need to know. And to the point that I've tried to reel any in on at least one, we talked about Lily's Garden and Bridget, if you have a chance, I need you to play this game as well. Oh, I'm playing. Not a sponsor. Not a sponsor. And it was created by a woman.

So a woman did this whole game and she did all of the programming behind it. And you can kind of tell by the relationships in it. So I'm like, huh, it is definitely different than the other games where it's just like, oh, this girl looks like your typical white sorority girl who has all these stereotypes attached to her talking to a cute white boy. And that's this. This one is a little different. And I was like, well, and now I'm really caught up in it.

So that is my gaming expertise. And Annie had to tell me that this was gaming. Because I was like, no, I don't, I don't, I don't, what? I don't know what you're talking about. I just play on my phone. Yes. I mean, that's so funny. Where do you think this idea that,

playing, if you, like, quote, just play on your phone that you're not actually gaming, like, where did that attitude come from? I think it came from, let's see if I can condense this. So in the 80s, toys were gendered and video games were coming out at that time, and they got put into boys, toys, because the marketers at the time thought that they would have more success in that category, it fit more into that category. And so it became a, like, boys arena. and therefore like any girl entering into that space

and I speak from experience was seen as sort of like an anomaly and like why are you coming in here? This is like are you trying to trick us into thinking that you're good or look how cute she thinks she can do this or like once you get older are you trying to get a date?

And so I think it became a very like boys space and so that became serious gaming. And so when phone games came out and everybody who had a phone had more access to it, and especially women were coming in and playing, that became like, that's frivolous gaming, that is not gaming. I, I being the boy who has grown up with this. I am the serious gamer and this is what gaming is.

I think it's another example of gatekeeping around that. That makes me so sad. It is very tragic. I will say I am in level 3,000 something. Look at this. This is a pro. Yeah. We got a pro on here.

You should demand respect. I demand respect. Yes. This is what I do rather than spending time with people. Well, and just to add to that before we get into this, for a long time, the kind of running commentary around this has been, most gamers are men. But when you add in phone games, like games, in my opinion, but yes, phone games, then it does skew towards women. But as in the last two years, I believe, even, quote, serious gaming or console gaming, more women play than men. So I think we really got to reframe our thoughts around what a gamer looks like.

Definitely. And I think it really speaks to sort of the dark arts of marketing. You see this all over tech where the demographic that is being marketed to and thus sort of creating this perception of they're the main, the biggest demographic. Like, that has done so much bad stuff in terms of making these different industries across technology look like who is, who actually makes them up, like who is actually in them. And so even while women are making up this lion share of people who are gaming, marketing still would have you believe that that's not true. Right. The way that we, our perceptions of it is still so warped and it doesn't actually, you know, align with the reality of who is actually in this demographic. Right. And I think even in the game. games that are getting made and how women are portrayed in a lot of those games,

it would very much lead you to believe that men are the intended audience and the preferred audience. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes.

Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ad-supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHart's twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast. radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHeart. Streaming, radio, and podcasting.

Let us show you at IHeartadvertising.com. That's Iheartadvertising.com. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast, point game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the

lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reed. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers, why he got the. the bar like after you go through a training camp with that Isaiah you figure it out real quick

get your ass up and down the court and you're gonna get the ball so listen to point game on the iHeart radio app apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts why is everyone obsessed with romance right now like everyone your co-worker who quote unquote doesn't read is reading romance your mom book talk the entire internet i'm I'm Tyler Basker. I'm Tyler McCall. And this is Radio 831, a romance podcast. The books, the tropes, the adaptations, the drama, the discourse. And what all of it says about how we actually love, yearn, and obsess. We're going to Wuthering Heights, which, for the record, is not a romance novel. And yet it has haunted the romance genre for 200 years. We're getting into dark romance, age gaps, certain Russian hockey players. and sentient objects in love, which is a thing. That's the kind of conversation we're having every episode. Listen to the Radio 831 podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Let's talk about what you brought today, Bridget, as infuriating as it is, very important to talk about, and really ongoing situation, which is what is going on with Activision Blizzard. Yeah, so I'm so glad that you grounded this and the idea that it is ongoing. This is a current conversation. It first came on my radar over the summer, but it is completely ongoing and just last week, you know, new updates in it. So essentially, the gaming company, Activision Blizzard,

they are under fire for allegations to the company has fostered a really toxic workplace where the women staffers are mistreated and harassed and are just not treated equally. And last week, new reporting from the Wall Street Journal has really shed new light on these allegations. And, you know, last week, the staff has been mobilizing.

They had a walkout. And so I think, you know, when we think about different arenas and technology, some people who don't game might be listening to this and think like, oh, well, big deal, who cares? But particularly as more and more young people are fighting themselves on online worlds and online platforms built by, you know, gaming companies, it is really important to think through, like, how are these games where so many young people are spending their time? How do they come to be?

What kind of cultures are they coming up in? And so that's one of the reasons why I think this story is such a big deal. Activision Blizzard is also just a big deal as a company. They're a major gaming company. They produce Candy Crush, Call of Duty, Overwatch, and World of Warcraft. So major games. And it's probably, I think it's, I think it, in 2018 at least, it was the biggest gaming company in both the United States and Europe. So like, not only is it an important story in terms of the culture these games are being produced in,

it's also a major business story because we're talking huge, global companies and the climates that these big companies foster can really make a difference in the industry and what the industry is like. Yeah, they're hugely influential. They make like billions and billions of dollars. And yeah, having such a big player in that space does ripple out and impact all these other players in that space. And I know like I've read some of the stories of people, women who have worked at these companies and it's just horrific. And to, to have them be so excited because they grew up playing games or it was really important to them and to be so excited to get this opportunity.

And then it's just awful the amount of harassment they faced, which have started coming out over the past few years, right? Yeah. So there was a two-year investigation but concluded in July. The California Department of Fair Employment and Housing filed a lawsuit over the summer alleging sexual discrimination, harassment, and like a general kind of frat boy culture at Activision Blizzard. And the investigation found that the company discriminated against female employees in both terms and conditions of employment,

including compensation, assignment, promotion, and termination, and that company leadership consistently failed to take steps to prevent discrimination, harassment, and retaliation. And like you were saying, when you get into some of the specific stories of the kinds of things that went on here, like one of the allegations that was made was that the men at the company would often do these things called cube crawls in which male employees would drink copious amounts of alcohol as they crawl their way through various cubicles in the office and engage in inappropriate behavior toward female employees. Like imagine if that was just the thing that happened in your workplace, right? That oh, it's Thursday. Obviously the male staffers are all going to get really drunk and crawl on their hands and knees into my office and harass me while I'm. I'm trying to work. Like, some of the allegations that have come out are just so horrifying.

And it's like, I can just, just like what you were saying, I can imagine being so excited to work at a company that is so influential in the gaming space and then get there and be like, oh, actually I have to put up with the most degrading behavior just to do my job here. Right. It sends a really clear message of whether, like, the company culture and who belongs and who doesn't. and like what the kind of status quo, how they view you is someone who it's okay to harass. Like your job is not important or that you are kind of that outlier that, you know, why are you here?

Is it to get a man or just for us to kind of ogle and harass at your job? Right. I'm thinking like I wonder how much it took for them to even get an interview to go through. how, and we've talked about how in general women, when they apply for anything, they have to be sure, like they are 120% qualified before they even attempted. So making sure that they're able to prove that they can work there and then going through all of the hoops because they have to do so much more than men typically. And within a business like this, you have to do even more to prove that you are worthy and knowledgeable of these things. And then coming into there and being dismissed as if you were an intern. Not that intern should be treated this way either, but it is essentially as if you're coming to learn instead of being a professional and being like, hey, I'm here and then watching this nonsense. Like I would, that makes me want to throw things for sure. Yes.

It's infuriating. And some of the details coming out, I'm just like, wow, somebody somewhere thought this was acceptable. Like in one example, an Activision employee had for years just signed his email signature 1,800 all. And, you know, in this Wall Street Journal podcast that broke these new allegations. She makes this good point, you know. So if you're a woman, you would get an email and just be like, this is normal. It is normal to get an email that has this sign off. And then to make things

worse, this employee worked there for a month, right? Like they took a month for them to fire this employee. And they had an investigation. And part of me is like, what was there even to investigate? Like what did that investigation even look like? Right. You're like, it's right there. Here's the email. Either go ahead and discipline them or why are we waiting a month? Right. And then like the saddest thing is this is pretty sad. So like if you're someone who, you know, it has a difficult time talking about suicide, I'm sorry to report that this is something that happened. The suit also points that a female activation employee died by suicide on a company trip with her male supervisor. The employee had been subjected to intense sexual harassment prior to her death, including having nude photos of her passed around at a company holiday party. And, you know, I think that just really underscores the seriousness of what was going on and the seriousness of the toxic culture that was happening at Activision that somebody died by suicide in regards to it.

Yeah, yeah. And because, as we said, this is ongoing, like, it's not like something happened, something tragic like this happened, and then they fixed it. It was, oh, you know, we've known this has been going on. This is sort of the accepted culture. let's move on from this and that's been one of the most frustrating like all of it's really upsetting

but that's been one of the most frustrating things is it's like all of these instances over and over and over and it seems that they just really could care less they're like all right let's just wait for this publicity to blow over it'll be fine and we'll continue as we've done

and that's acceptable to them. Yeah that is the message that I think they're putting out. I think just like you, when I heard about this employee who died by suicide, I thought certainly this will be, this, like, it's obvious to anyone that big changes are necessary. A change in leadership, a change in culture. This is not the kind of thing that I think training or, you know, bringing a counselor is going to help. And then I was really surprised to see that, you know, initially the company was saying, like, these reports aren't true. It just showed, it just showed me that they weren't taking it very seriously. So when these

allegations first surfaced in the summer, Activision CEO Bobby Kotick, he denied the allegation saying that the lawsuit allegations were inaccurate, adding that the picture that the lawsuit paints is not the Blizzard workplace of today. But the staff really say otherwise. And so a lot of them put the blame squarely on his shoulders as like the CEO of this company, the person who is overseeing all of this like really toxic stuff. And what's really upsetting to me is that initially Bobby Kotick was denying that he had any knowledge of this kind of conduct happening. Right. He was like, I have no awareness of this. I didn't know this was happening. And it wasn't until after this lawsuit came out that in October, he eventually apologized to the staff and agreed to pay

$18 million in settlement with federal regulators and pledged to take steps to improve, have a company treats employees. And so you might think, you know, okay, like that's the end of the story. Like they paid the money. They apologized. They pledged to do better. But this is why the story is continuing because the Wall Street Journal reported that not only did he know about this behavior, he was an active participant himself in this behavior.

And so what's really funny is that in his kind of apology tour, he was like, now Blizzard is going to have a zero tolerance policy against this kind of behavior. but that he had to specifically note that that policy was not inclusive of his own behavior. He was like, oh, well, it's zero tolerance, but like, not for me. I'm a CEO, so, you know, it's all good. Yeah, I mean, I know, like, players have kind of spoken out and, you know, said, done, like, strikes where they won't play. And the workers have spoken out. but still, still, this guy is still around,

despite like a lot of allegations coming out against him. Oh, yes. So some of the allegations against him specifically, according to the Wall Street Journal, over the years Mr. Kotick himself has been accused by several women of mistreatment, both inside and outside of the workplace. In some instances, he has worked to settle those complaints quickly and quietly.

So a couple of the specific allegations in 2006, he reportedly harassed one of his assistants, including threatening in a voicemail to have her killed. Oh my gosh. I imagine if your boss was like, I'll have you killed. You know? No. It's shocking.

Yes. Yes. I mean, a lot of, it's one of those things that you read about this, that there's almost a part of you that's like, this can't be real, but in the back of your head, you're like, no, unfortunately, I think it is. I mean, this is kind of like a big part of narcissists. that could power, you see these levels, like they think they're untouchable as well as the

fact that, no, just saying that is actually a felony. That is a felony. But congratulations, you have money and I'm assuming he's white. You can move on. Oh, he is. It's funny because he's almost like, in some of these reports, he kind of comes off as like a mega wealthy, like, mega powerful supervillain. You know, in 2007, he allegedly told a private jet flight attendant who was suing him for sexual harassment committed by the pilot of his private jet, I'm going to destroy you. I feel like telling a flight attendant on your private jet, I'm going to destroy you is some like Mr. Burns level powerful narcissist run amok with power and money stuff. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And I mean, I can just imagine like if he, you know,

has played video games that he sees himself as like the huge. of this story or like the powerful I can do anything because I've like ascended every level in this video game that is this company that I run and I can treat people however I want. Yeah. In my mind, I'm seeing like a Harvey Weinstein of this industry because that's exactly what he would do with women that would just say no to him. And in my mind, this seems to be what he is doing with women. If he's threatening them, I'm willing to go to harm them. whatever. There's no telling what he has actually done that people are not speaking out about yet. That's such a good point. And I think that Harvey Weinstein comparison is apt. And I do think that the

kind of things that he's being accused of, I think really illustrate a, just a particular kind of view of women, that women are around to serve you and to do whatever you want them to do. And that the idea that like a woman would say no to you, the idea that a woman who works on your private jet would sue you for the behavior of your pilot, you know, I think that the way that he responds to these women, it just really illustrates a very particular kind of view of women just as there to be in service of powerful men, regardless of what their actual role is in the organization. And so another thing to point out is that I believe the own, so like, In terms of that voicemail where he told his assistant that he would have her killed, he's through a spokesperson, he said that he immediately apologized for that incident and that he regretted it.

I think the only reason that he said that is because it's on a voicemail. I think that if there was not, you know, audio of him saying it so you can't deny it, I don't think he ever would be like, oh, yeah, I definitely said that. I regretted it. I apologized, you know, this, that, and the third. I think the only reason he did that is because she, you know, if it's a voicemail, you approve. Right. Right. Yeah, I think so too

And I think Again, this is like my very personal experience But I have had a lot of run-ins With some real nasty gamer bros And I feel like a lot of like What you were saying, Bridget, of like seeing women in a certain way, I think there's a lot of like Really

condescending Like Oh, she's so cute. Oh, she's so cute She thinks she can like threat me Or she thinks she can come into this world Like I'm all She's only here because I'm letting her be here

If she ignores me, if she does something I don't like, then I will threaten her with violence, like immediately get her out or find a way to silence her. Because yeah, I do think a lot of it is like she only exist here because I allow her to exist here, which is very, very toxic and gross. I mean, how do you even, as a gamer yourself, how do you continue to show up and put yourself out there? even if you're playing with someone who seems accommodating and nice and maybe they're like, you know, a feminist, but to know in the back of your head if I do something that he doesn't like,

he could flip on me and turn on me and I would see this other side. How do you continue to show up and put yourself out there knowing this? Yeah, I mean, that's the, what really breaks my heart about a lot of this because I stopped online gaming when I was 12. because I had already at that point

received enough threats and harassment that it was not worth it for me and it became such a scary experience. And I know that this has changed but for a while like the Xbox live guidelines had a bullet point in there that was like if you're being harassed, you can leave essentially like not addressing the problem

but being like, you know, it's going to happen. So too bad. I do still play, but it's much more like I played by myself or with friends that I know. I do have, when I was in college, I went to a technical college and I entered a Super Smash Brothers tournament and I won $500. But every other competitor, which you can all bet, they were all men. And some of them were my friends did flip out on me. And they were like, you cheated. There's no way she could not have one.

that is impossible. And I was like, I mean, people were watching, man. Like, I didn't cheat. You just didn't think I was a threat. So you didn't come at me and you all died. Right.

They all killed each other, which was my tactic. But it doesn't work because I fell off anyway. But, you know, we talked about the story actually just this weekend, Annie and I and just talking about how men in general in these gaming worlds really don't see women as threats or if they are threats it's because they are too sexual and or something or for their

gays so for the male gays in general. And I was thinking about that with like feminist frequency they were established because they're trying to protect the women in this industry and those who are non-binary or those who identifies women like they are really trying. But even to this day when I look at when they do fundraisers or when they have like things live, the amount of harassment just for existing to help women is. incredible and the amount of just trolls coming at them today. When I'm like, oh my God, have you not been listening to the fact that the growing number of women who are love gaming, A, B, who are actually here helping you, whether it's helping programming these new games that you're really into and developing these new characters that you're really into, but yet you don't want to acknowledge it. It's such a whole level of like, why? Why do you hate women so much?

why does this industry continue to foster a place of hate against women? Because things like Twitch is still having complaints about, hey, you need to control the level of harassment that is happening. But because of you being silent, nothing is happening. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think it speaks to Annie's point about this idea of like, if you don't like it, you can leave.

I think that there's a misconception that women who game are sort of putting themselves in a position to be harassed, and if they don't want to be harassed, they should leave. And it leaves out this idea of like, well, women shouldn't have to be harassed just to play games, right? And I think that for a lot of these women who work in Activision,

I think the attitude is, you know, you're working at a broie video game company. What did you expect? Like, it really puts the onus on people who have been harassed and survivors to get themselves out of situations that they should not be in the first place. And I think that's exact,

it's like a cultural attitude that really blames survivors and blames victims for, you know, systems that they did not create that leads to them being harmed. And, you know, it is, Sam, to your point, I do think that we all know that games are better, more inclusive, more interesting when they're built by inclusive teams. And so your product can only be more engaging if women are around to help design it. Like you were talking about how Lily's, Garden is a more fun game for you because you can tell it was, you know, put together by a woman.

And it's better than the games where you can tell this is designed by a team of men who probably don't know any women and, you know, have no sense of like what a woman is going to want from a game like this, right? And so we know that things are better when women are included and valued and supported and champion. And it makes me sad that the gaming industry just can't get it together to, you know, reflect that reality. You know, the biggest question to me is like, if you are a company that wants to grow and truly are looking to make money, why wouldn't you want more people? Do you really want to just cater for half the population when you can have the whole population?

Hello? I really think they hate women that much, honestly. I don't think they want them in their audience. And I say that as someone who loves games. And I play plenty of games made by women who were great. really inclusive and I played games made by men that are great and really inclusive. But I feel like the industry at a whole, especially this like console gaming level, they are so resistant to it.

And they're just like, I think they don't like, they don't want women in their audience because they think it'll demean the value of their product. And I think also they're so afraid of pissing off. They're very angry because this is another note I want to make. When they like harass you, it's like threats to kill you or rape you. It's not like, hey, you suck. It's like, I'm going to find your address and send it to people. Like, it's scary.

It jumps to this, I'm going to rape you and harm you in a way that I know is going to violate you and make you know that I'm a man. Right. Which is in itself a whole level that honestly all of this just, again, kind of talks about, when you were talking about this industry in general about being a fat club or a good old boy club. And I see that continuously when you see the higher-ups being just friends of theirs coming up with the same damn attitude that may have a lesser record or the lesser known record than the previous person, which is so like, then you're just fostering once again more of this nastiness that you are saying you want to prevent now. Oh, I completely agree. It's such a vicious toxic cycle. I don't actually know if I believe that some of the. these places can be reformed or improved without massive structural changes. Like reading the Blizzard statement where they're like, oh, we're bringing in a counselor, we're bringing in a, you know, we're going to do more training.

I don't think that these men need to be trained to know that signing your emails 1,800 is not professional. I don't think, I don't think that that's going to cut it. I don't think that like a training is going to be the thing to, you know, help men in this company understand that crawling into your female co-worker's office while drunk to harass her is not acceptable workplace behavior. And so I'm really curious if this can all be improved. But it sounds to me so toxic from the very, very top, you know, the CEO

to the guys who are playing the games threatening to murder you and the platforms being like, that's okay, that is, that is, you know, that's part of gameplay. if you don't want to be involved in that, don't play the game. Like, there are just so many levels to how bad it is that it can be very dismaying. Right. And I do wonder, too, like, when you talk about them saying, we're going to bring in counselors, we're going to teach these tactics,

and we're going to talk about, you know, workplace safety and all this. But I'm like, who are you really keeping safe? If the people that have made this place unsafe still exist there, then who are you truly keeping safe? It's not the victims. The victims have to be there with them. The victims who have been threatened by these people or harassed by these people or continually told, you know, all of these nasty comments by these people.

And all you're doing is keeping them there, those perpetrators. And you're like, but we're going to help them spend money on them. Who are you keeping safe? And that's like a common thing up and down tech that I cannot stand where even when somebody is like confirmed to be a harasser or an abuser or, you know, somebody who has abused their power, a lot of times these companies will go out of their way to praise them. or give them like lucrative exit packages on the way out the door. And it makes me, it like boils my blood.

It enrages me. So a former Blizzard Technology Chief Ben Kilgore was fired in 2018 after an investigation into multiple allegations of sexual harassment. But he was thanked, quote, for his many contributions over the last four and a half years in an email by his then boss. And what kind of messages that's then? Somebody who is fired for sexual harassment, not like clearly the company. was like, okay, this happened, we have to take action to fire him.

Is it really necessary to praise him on the way out? And what kind of signal do you think that is sending to the people that he harassed and the people who have to work there after he leaves? Yeah. Yep. Get some extra money and he did a great job. Just ignore all that other stuff. It's cool.

And this was like in the face of, wasn't it 30 employees? saying that they had experienced some type of harassment. That's right. So in 2020, 30 female employees in their e-sports department sent an email to the department head saying that they had been subject to unwanted touching the meeting comments, exclusion from important meetings, and unsolicited remarks about their appearance. And again, Cotech was aware of this email. He was one of the people who got this email. And so him saying publicly, like, I'm not aware of any of these obligations. I've never seen anything like this in my company, blah, blah, blah, blah.

It's just a lie. It's a way to save face. And it to me makes it seem as though the company is not really invested in or interested in cleaning any of this up. They're interested in making a PR problem go away and interested in making shareholders feel good and feel, you know, like the company is in good hands. I don't think they actually care about the fact that their people in their employ are going through this just to do their jobs. Yeah. No, I totally agree. And I feel like a lot of it to me gives the vibe of like really actually wanting to hold on to this culture

and the way they've been able to treat women and believing. And so far, very unfortunately, it seems that it's working, but that people will just forget it and move on. That's not to say the employees haven't been really, especially lately, like, coming together and speaking out, which is amazing. And I really appreciate it. and I know how hard that is. But, yeah, I've felt like their whole thing is, at least the higher-ups are like,

I'd want to continue as is. Let's just wait for this to blow over. It's going to be fine. Yeah. And, you know, to your point about it seems like they want to keep this culture, you said something earlier that kind of sparked something in my mind, which is we know that the most extreme, violent gamer dudes out there are like pretty scary and pretty like, I guess, very into the things that they're into.

And we've seen before when that, when those, when folks like that feel like something that they are entitled to is taken away from them. You know, there are so many different instances in pop culture when they made a reboot of Ghostbusters with women. Like, they're taking Ghostbusters away from me. When Star Wars casts women and people of color, it's like, oh, this institution that is mine is being taken away from me. part of me wonders if they feel like they don't want to make significant changes to this toxic misogynistic culture

precisely because they want their core, the people that they're thinking of as their core user base, they want them to feel like, yeah, this toxic soup of culture that we've created here is still yours. Like no one is coming to like wokeify your video games at Blizzard. Like we will continue to foster misogyny and extremism and violence. that's a guarantee. You know what you mean? Right. Yeah.

No, I think there is something to that. I think there is some kind of like wink-wink thing happening of like to their very angry, generally white male player base. You know, we're not going to give in to these feminists or these social justice warriors. Like, you know, we'll say something out loud. We'll do like a publicity thing. But between us, it's going to be. be fine. We're not going to mess with anything and we're going to keep providing you just for you,

the entertainment. And as long as women are quiet and know their role, then they can come in, but otherwise they're not welcome here. I do think they have any problem with that they can just leave. Oh, exactly, exactly. Any problem at all. Like, well, then leave. It's fine. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite on humor me with Robert Smygel and friends, me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirkton. David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ad-supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHearts twice as large as the next two combined.

So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHeart. Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Let us show you at iHeartadvertising.com. That's iHeartadvertising.com. What's up, fam?

It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast's point game is about defining the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without looking. Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows.

Without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stopped by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too.

Steve Nass would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers why he got the ball. Like, you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Why is everyone obsessed with romance right now? Like everyone.

Your co-worker who, quote unquote, doesn't read, is reading romance. Your mom, book talk, the entire internet. I'm Sondjana Basker. I'm Tyler McCall. And this is Radio 831, a romance podcast. The books, the tropes, the adaptations, the drama, the discourse. And what all of it says about how we actually love, yearn, and obsess. We're going to Weathering Heights.

which, for the record, is not a romance novel. And yet it has haunted the romance genre for 200 years. We're getting into dark romance, age gaps, certain Russian hockey players. And sentient objects. In love, which is a thing. That's the kind of conversation we're having every episode. Listen to the Radio 831 podcast on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Samantha knows I have one of my favorite games that came out recently, the last of us two, had a few. featured a woman in the main role, mostly women.

Gamer dudes hated it. They hated it. And they sent like death threats to all the voice actors, solid creator. So it's not just like it's the player. It's impacting the player, but it's also impacting like companies and games that are trying to show these other stories.

And that's just another way of silencing and keeping it like, no, it has to look this way and very gate kept. And if so, you will receive a death threat. It's just very, it's a very toxic space in a lot of ways. It makes me so sad that, you know, companies like Activision are so big that they really can, like what they do can dictate the rest of the industry. And like you said, it's a top down thing.

And so we're talking to voice talent. We're talking designers. We're talking women who write about games. We're talking the impact that it can have when a major player cultivates this kind of toxicity and masagony, I think, really knows no bounds. And I'm really hurting to see staffers, you know, speaking up, folks within the company speaking up on November 17th, a group of shareholders led by Union Pension Group, the SOC investment group, called for the resignation of Activision CEO, Bobby Kotick, and the retirement of two other members of the board. And the letter was also signed

by, you know, various kind of investment groups, which focus on supporting women across industries. and the rank-and-file staff themselves are really speaking up trying to get COTIC to resign. Advocacy Group ABK Workers Alliance recently published a document signed by 500 employees calling for Cotix removal as CEO. They said, we the undersigned no longer have confidence in the leadership of Bobby Cotick as CEO of Activision. And they walked out in mass to protest this. And I know that that is not easy. It's not easy to speak up in a company like this. where it's already been documented that retaliation is a thing that happens. And so kudos to these

employees who are doing that. But it seems like for right now, unfortunately, the board is sticking with this CEO. You know, they said that they have confidence in him. And I think this is where things get a little bit businessy because at a certain point, you know, you have these investors and shareholders in your company. And it's like, I can understand why this guy's leadership is not inspiring confidence in your investment in this in this company and it's like at like i agree with you that they're doing some sort of wink wink nod non thing but i think that they are they should be beholden to their stakeholders and the staff who have to deal with this environment that they're cultivating and it's like i guess i wonder where when does any kind of accountability come in

like who are you accountable to and if not now when yeah i think that was one of the most galling things for the employees but also people who uh have just been watching the situation is that they seem so out of touch with the statements they released after the walkout, like they clearly were kind of like not getting the point or purposefully skirting around the point. And then like there's a whole, you know, I'm trying to go into it right now, but there was a woman who was in charge of like the White House communications during Bush and the Iraq War. She was in charge of the women's gaming board there of like making sure that their voices were heard

and she was like, she tweeted something that was called the problem with a whistle blowing while all this was happening. Okay, so you're not really listening to us. Cool, cool. And like we've gone over some names already, but they were already, like,

those are not the only names of men at this company that have done really horrible things. Yeah. So it is, Like you said, it is, it feels very overwhelming and it's so frustrating. I think we recently did an episode where there's a new survey came out, some new research came out and showed that like over the past 10 years, the situation's actually gotten worse in terms of representation in video games.

I think this was specifically characters and storylines and stuff, but that's, it just, it does feel like a lot and it feels like we are making a lot of progress. happy to see people speaking up about it. I'm glad we're talking about it. But yeah, it's with so much work to be done. Absolutely. And I think, you know, it's sad that it doesn't seem like a lot as improving. This month, the Anti-Defamation League released a new study that shows that

shows that 62% of young gamers experience abuse or harassment while playing games. Five out of six adults, ages 18 to 45 experience harassment and online multiplayer games, representing 80 million adult gamers. Three out of five young people, that 60%, ages. 13 to 17 experienced harassment in online multiplayer games, and 71% of adult online multiplayer gamers experienced severe abuse, including physical threats, stalking, and sustained harassment. So precisely the kind of thing that you were talking about dealing with when you were playing in these kinds of games.

And this is, again, not surprising, the largest increases in identity-based harassment occurred among adult respondents who identified as women, black or African-American, and Asian-American. And so it's just bad. It doesn't sound like a... a safe environment. And I think given that so many young people are having formative experiences in these environments, these companies owe it to them to figure out a way to foster safety and actual community in the gameplay experience, but also in the companies in the boardrooms where these

games get made. Like it all, it all to me is kind of one big bucket. And I really think like the industry has got to make some very, very big changes if anything is going to get better. Yeah, and I would like to add on here because I think sometimes this gets lost in this discussion, but you know, you hear in the media all the time, like video games are bad for your braid or might cause violence. It's actually been a lot of studies that show they can help with things like PTSD. They can, they have positive impacts. And I know listeners have written in and said, you know, for one reason or the other, I have social anxiety or whatever the case may be. And I really found this online community and it was so important for me.

and this gaming was so important for me in helping with whatever it is. And so, like, all of this is bad and we should fix it. But it also does have, like, real, as I feel like we always make this point and I think it's always important to make. But there's real world impacts of these things on your health and on your, the communities you can form

and even how you feel about yourself. So I do think, yeah, this is really, really important conversation. Right. And I just want to add this, because I was looking it up, I wanted to see, as you were talking about, the board is supporting Kotech. And I'm like, so how many women are on the board? There's two. One just recently of 2020.

So not surprising. But then on top of that, a new article saying that their solution instead of having him resign is to do a new committee that does a workplace responsibility committee. And they're going to watch over the workplace and then talk to the directors who KOTIC is a part of. He's a director on those boards. so you're like, wait, they're not even looking at, why are they looking so far right when the problem is right in front of them? And this is their solution?

Fantastic. Way to not read the room, guys. We don't not read the room. It's the other title for this episode. It's so absurd. It's like, I honestly think, like, parting ways with their CEO is like the least they can do. Spending more money and more time and more investment

in, like, creating these kind of BS, toothless, committees to do nothing, I think it's just, it just shows how, how they're not meaningfully interested in, like, actual change. It's just like a Band-Aid and not even a good Band-Aid at that, you know? Right. It's literally like, hey, they have told you what the problem is. This is the problem. Why are you doing non-work to be like, oh, we don't know what the problem is. We're going to put another committee when they're like, no, it's clear. There's a petition. they've told you what could help to resolve what? Yeah, don't you all read the Wall Street Journal?

Because there's a whole thing in here about what's going on. Like, save your money, just buy a paper. I mean, this is the obvious when you were talking to Annie of like, oh, no, okay, we're just going to pretend like we don't want to understand and then sweep it under the rug, then move on. Yes. Oh, yes. I have so many thoughts on this.

Oh, my. But I think we should wrap it up for now. Thank you, as always, Bridgett, for coming. Where could the good listeners find you? Thank you for having me. This is always such a treat. If you're interested in more discussions on the internet technology and how women and people who identify as women show up in those spaces, you can check out my podcast. There are No Girls on the Internet. We just did a really interesting couple episodes all about the Astro World tragedy in Houston.

So some truly wild conspiracy theories coming out of there. So we have a really interesting episode with our researcher debunking them. So please check it out. And you can follow me on Twitter at Bridget Marie or on Instagram at Bridget Murray in D.C. Yes. And definitely do that if you haven't already listeners.

And Bridget, happy weirdo Christmas. Thank you. Please send us pictures. I will. Happy Weirdo Christmas to one at all. Yes. Yes. Thank you for introducing us in this holiday.

And thank you listeners for listening. If you would like to contact us you can or email Stephanie and Momstuff at IHeard. media.com. You can find us on Instagram at Step Home Never Told You or on Twitter at Mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always to your super producer, Christina. Thank you. And thanks to you for listening. Steph One Never Told You's production of IHeart Radio. For more podcasts on My Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smyl and

friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, fam?

It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano. It's our favorite time of the year on our podcast point game, the playoffs. We're digging into the biggest surprises of the season. And I'm looking back on some of my greatest playoff moments. If we didn't talk ever again, I was harmed. You just understood. That's how personal it got.

Wow. Then after that, Game 7, Mark keep coming till. He's like, you know, I love you, dog. You know, it's all love. This was just playoffs. This was just basketball. So listen to Point Game on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There are times when the mind becomes a difficult place to live.

This is David Eagleman with the Inner Cosmos podcast. And for Mental Health Awareness Month, we'll talk with singer-songwriter Jewel about anxiety. I started living in my car. got stolen. I was having panic attacks. I was agoraphobic. This is a month of deeply personal and honest conversations about what happens when the brain goes off course. Listen to Intercosmos on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Therapy is fantastic, but once again, it does not have a monopoly on healing. That's why I create the resources and that's why I create the community because I really just want you to have more access.

On the podcast, cultivating her space, Dr. Dom and Terry Lulner, Max, create a space where black women can show up fully and be heard. It's tough because we're suppressing our emotions and so many of us are like high achieving individuals. Listen to cultivating her space on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.