There Are No Girls on the Internet - AI generated Joe Rogan conspiracy theories are all over TikTok

Episode Date: June 21, 2024

Friend of the show Abbie Richards explains why low effort AI generated conspiracy theory content is all over TikTok right now and who is profiting from it.  With TikTok creator program, AI-sped misinformation pays: https://www.axios.com/2024/03/26/tik-tok-creator-program-ai-misinformation Follow Abbie Richards on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@tofologySee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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by low-quality, inaccurate misinformation that's just like brain candy. There are No Girls on the Internet as a production of IHeart Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. So recently, I've been deeply fascinated by this noticeable uptick in AI-generated low-effort content all over social media. On Facebook, maybe you saw the picture of the elderly twins who are celebrating their 120th birthday, posted alongside the caption, prompting you to leave them a little birthday love. Or that bizarre image of Jesus made entirely out of shrimp asking for an amen.

Now, on Facebook, it does tend to trend a little bit more saccharine, but over on TikTok, creators are flooding the platform with low effort videos that push truly ridiculous conspiracy theories, things like, the government is holding a vampire hostage. And not only that, but because of the way TikTok's creativity program works, spreading these ridiculous lies equals a payday. It sounds really silly and maybe even kind of harmless. But disinformation researcher and friend of the show, Abby Richards, who has been tracking the spread of this kind of content for media matters,

says if garbage like this is incentivized, it makes our entire internet ecosystem worse. I usually start by asking my guests to, like, introduce themselves, give us their title, all of that. But I feel like by now people know you. You are a certified friend of the show. Abby Richards, welcome back. We're so happy you are here. Oh, my God.

Bridget, you know I would do absolutely anything for you. What do you need? Do you need a kidney? You can have one. I feel the last time I saw you, I was pretty drunk in Berlin. And we had a great time. So the reason I wanted to talk to you today is because you're sort of my, I don't know, resident TikTok.

expert. I feel like nobody knows the platform better than you. And when I say knowing the platform, I mean the good, the way that it can connect people, educate people, bring people together, give people access to community they didn't know they had, and also the bad, because as much as I know you like TikTok, I don't know that I know many people that are as honest about the platform and as critical of the platform as you. Yeah, you know, I really approach TikTok from two angles, which are the two hats that I always wear. My first hat is as a researcher and like studying misinformation and extremism on the platform. But then my other hat is a content creator and like a user of TikTok, someone who has found great joy there at times. And there's, I like

situations where there's complexity, you know, like we can understand that things can be simultaneously amazing and also terrible. And we can hold space for both of those things at the same time. I'm glad that you were doing that because I feel so often when we're talking about technology, it's either this technology is harming everybody and it should be made. Like, it's, it's, I think there's a temptation to talk about it in a binary, either like all good or all bad. And I'm happy that people like you can really bring the nuance of like, well, here's all the good things. I want to be honest about all the good things it's brought to me, but let's also be honest about the places that are not so good and the things that need to be fixed on the platform. Yeah, because also,

how are we going to move forward and create better digital spaces if we can't pinpoint what's working, what's good, what do we like? And also what's not working, what's harmful. Like, I'm all for creating healthy digital spaces where people can thrive and, like, evolve and learn and grow and laugh and build community. Love. Like, yeah, amazing. But I want to avoid creating spaces that, like, are exclusively prioritizing profit, right? And in doing that, creating some, like, really toxic spaces. Well, to that end, let's talk about some of the reporting that you did around something happening on TikTok. So you initially pointed this out with Media Matters back in February.

We're talking months later. But it's really that folks had been exploiting TikTok's creativity program by pumping out viral conspiracy theory content. using AI-generated images and voices for profit. So I want to start with what exactly is TikTok's creativity program for folks who aren't familiar with that? Yeah. So TikTok's creativity program actually was. TikTok, it technically was called TikTok's or TikTok creativity program beta because it was in

beta. And it was a program designed to compensate creators for the content that they produce, which is amazing. That's great. We do want to be paying people for their latest. on those platforms. And the criteria for eligibility for the creativity program beta was that you had an account based in countries where it was available. You had to be at least 18 years old. You had to have at least 10,000 followers. You had to have at least 100,000 video views in the last 30

days. And the videos that you could monetize, that could be monetized, had to be at least 60 seconds long. So that was replaced in March. They ended the creativity program beta and officially launched the creator of rewards program, which is very, very similar in structure, essentially same requirements, but is no longer in beta. So because of this program, these TikToks can rack up millions and millions and millions of views, which makes whoever post them probably a pretty good bit of money. What kind of conspiracy theories are you seeing in these TikToks? We had the seemingly AI Joe Rogan predicting Texas will secede starting a civil war, which had 800,000 views.

Simpsons predicted that the Baltimore Bridge would collapse. That has 2.7 million views. It is also a minute and one second. Seemingly, AI, Joe Rogan saying about three weeks ago, a man named Blake Dawson embarked on a mission to uncover the hidden depths of the Denver International Airport. He discovered a vast laboratory underneath, et cetera, et cetera. and now he's missing. That had just under 400,000 views. I had an AI, or seemingly AI, Joe Rogan and seemingly AI Matt Rife talking about SeaWorld

hiding the world's last megaladon. Oh my God. That had just under 900,000 views. And I had a seemingly AI Elon Musk talking about flat earth. And I have 1.8 million views. And it was one minute and one second long. something that strikes me about this. Like, there's that undercurrent of like the kind of guy who likes Elon Musk,

Joe Rogan and Matt Wright. It's like, if you're, if that guy is you, you should be offended that they're like, oh, stupid dumbasses who will believe absolutely anything. That is who we're targeting. That is you. Like, they're almost insulting you to your face in a kind of way. Again, I think you have different read on the situation than they do. Like, are you a gullible sucker?

So with the current iteration of this program, are you still seeing these, the kind of conspiracy theory TikToks that you saw on the platform when the program was in beta? Yeah. So let's walk back and I'll explain, like, what was even showing up on the platform at the time. What we were seeing was this entire niche of AI generated conspiracy theory content on TikTok. And so it used seemingly AI generated images, sometimes mixed with like non-AI generated images and AI generated speech to text, to like pump out conspiracy theory content at really high volumes. And it performed really well in TikTok's algorithm, right? We've been seeing that for years.

We know that conspiracy theories often perform well in these algorithms that are engagement driven. They're driven by watch time. And so these videos were pretty formulaic a lot of the time. So they started with some sort of unhinged statement at the top to hook you in. So they'd be like the U.S. government discovered a vampire and they're keeping it a secret. Or scientists just discovered the last megaladon and they're keeping it a secret. And they would use like, they would use AI generated images, fast-paced like super, you know,

they would use like AI generated images like this. very fast-paced editing style, captions, the speech-to-text and, like, spooky background music that really, like, hook you in and, like, they stimulate, like, all of your senses at once. And then they create this background story just essentially to take up the remaining 60 seconds of the video, presumably so that they could qualify for TikTok's creativity program at the time. And so, yeah, like I said, like, they.

were very unhinged statements at the top oftentimes, and I really liked this bit. They would use like a fictional researcher slash explorer character who had just discovered something. And it was always a guy. It was never a woman because why would it be a woman? Women can't be explorers. And they'd be like, I don't know, like Eric Smith was on an expedition to Antarctica just three weeks ago. And somehow he always ended up dead at the end. So we were like, how do we know this then?

You're really bringing a lot of like logical questions to this. How did we get the story out? Yeah. How did we get the story out if he died on the expedition? I just didn't want to know. I'm just asking questions. So I spent a lot of time deep diving into these. And there were also content creator gurus who were

creating videos like teaching people how to make these too. So I was watching their videos learning how to make them. Why do you think so many of them are like about Godzilla or asteroids, almost sort of science fictiony? Well, I think to some extent they're a little bit, again, this is purely speculation. I think they're slightly safer to play with of like mythical creatures are probably less likely to get you in trouble with TikTok moderation than like, a conspiracy theory about the Rothschild. I do sometimes see ones that are, you know, more explicitly harmful. Like we saw like a lot of like space is fake.

History has been rewritten. History is fake, flat earth kind of stuff. And that stuff definitely is harmful. But I do think that a lot of like the mythical creature stuff is kind of in that gray area where it's, it's not. some super nefarious, clearly anti-Semitic conspiracy theory, right? Like we're talking more about, like, mythical creatures. A lot of the time, the stories seem to reflect, like, horror more than even, like, conspiracy theories at times.

They use a lot of, like, horror tropes and trying to evoke that, like, eerie feeling. And even though we're talking about wacky horror stuff, usually there is some undercurrent of, like, oh, the government is lying to you. You're not being told the full truth. They know something. They're not telling us, but I'm telling you. And that's so appealing to us, right? Like, we want to feel like we're in on some special knowledge. There's nothing we love more than feeling like we know something that other people don't. So it's, again, it's very appealing to, sorry, I think my cat just screamed. Did you hear that? The girls are fighting. Girls are fighting. Maybe they're like chiming in. They know something we don't.

They do. They're always planning conspiracy theories against me. Cat conspiracies. We love feeling like we're in on some special knowledge. I think that's, you know, one of many, many reasons why conspiracy theories continue to be popular time and time again. Let's take a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guide, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier.

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is making the content look as if Joe Rogan is discussing it on his podcast. They'll actually use AI-generated content of Joe Rogan to make it seem as if Rogan actually did discuss the government covering up that they found an alien or a vampire or whatever. But even Joe Rogan has not actually entertained these conspiracy theories, and it's just another way to credential whatever outlandish claim their content is making by visually associating it with Joe Rogan. I did notice something else about a couple of these videos that I'm, I don't know if you have thoughts about what's going on, but where they have been designed to make it look like they are specifically being discussed on Joe Rogan's podcast.

So it's like an image of Joe Rogan. And it's like him being like, oh, did you know that we're all going to die because scientists found an asteroid? Pull this up. And then it makes it seem as though they've discussed this on the podcast, even though they have it as far as I know. Yeah, and quite cleverly, the captions are always put right over his mouth so that you can't tell easily how dubbed it is and how bad that dubbing is. Yeah, that was a really interesting part of this research that I wasn't necessarily expecting. But so much of this content was especially, I got a lot of videos using Joe Rogan, where Joe Rogan did the exact same form. formula, right? He'd be like, three weeks ago, a man called Blake Dawson embarked on a mission to uncover hidden depths of the Denver International Airport, and he discovered a vast laboratory underneath that's like yada, yada, yada. Literally verbatim, I wrote that down.

Yeah, like I got another one of Joe Rogan predicting that Texas was going to secede in the U.S. starting a civil war on May 14th. It is now May 21st and that hasn't happened. Date is come and gone. As far as I know, Texas is still part of the United States. Yeah, last time I checked. And one thing I also do, I want to stress too, because I didn't say this up at the top, but like does provide some context is that these videos are going mega viral, like very, very viral. Like we were seeing these types of videos with like, you know, 20, 30 million views at times, you know, 10 million views on some, but just millions and millions of views. We found one account that,

yeah, there's one account that, actually let me say this. So we identified a network of seemingly affiliated accounts that were all posting these exact same type of AI generated conspiracy theory content, a lot of Megalodon content on this account for whatever on these accounts. And they were posting these videos in English, Spanish, and French, using like a translated version of the same username and the same profile picture, which also seemed AI generated. It's hard to say for sure. And so they have received, at the time that we looked at it, over 342 million views on this account, just posting this sort of content.

And then the Spanish language, the Spanish language account had received 329 million views. Those numbers are shocking. But also what I know about Spanish language content, I feel like people who are interested in flooding digital spaces with junk, they are definitely going to translate that junk into Spanish because they know we don't have as many, you know, really good Spanish language content content platforms as we should. And so it's like, there's a gap of that. And they're like, oh, we can fill that gap with nonsense and make a quick buck. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Why do you think these videos are going viral like they are? Where to start? First of all, we love a good story and we love a good conspiracy story.

Like, these are candy for our brains. We love mythical creatures. We love to think that, you know, the government's hiding some sort of knowledge from us. Like, there's a reason why men in black is still a classic movie. Like, we fundamentally love these stories. And then you combine it with like this, this, this, kind of attention hijacking approach to creating content where we know that that sort of content plays really well on these algorithms where you're just trying to get watch time. And the more

people watch it, the more that that video will be recommended to other people and it'll then go viral. And then on top of that, you're able to just create such a high volume of this content. It's really easy to pump this content out because you don't need to go create your own art. You can just get an AI to do it. You don't need to read your own text. Like, do you know how long it takes me when I film one of my videos to get all the words, right? Like, get my delivery right? Like, that's time that you don't need to do.

Like, you don't need to spend that anymore. You can just plug it in to a text-to-speech software. So you can really crank this stuff out quite quickly. And I think that then you can just put a lot out and see what hits. When it comes to AI, we talk a lot about the obvious, dangerous examples of the ways that AI can disrupt our democracy. But there's also a real danger to the seemingly more benign AI generated content, too, because it just makes our internet landscape worse, more stupid and less trustworthy. And when it's financially incentivized, not to mention easy and fast to crank out at scale, it's not really that. difficult to see how it gets us away from the kind of internet we actually want, which is not one

full of low effort, AI generated, lies, scams, and garbage. Yeah, part of me wonders if that's really the role that we're seeing AI being utilized for here. It's just, you know, the speed at which you can crank these out, the ease at which you can crank these out, and you can just really just flood the space and see what happens to hit that, hit that virality mark. I'm definitely, nervous about it. I'm very concerned about the role of AI here in just its ability to create volume. And I'm concerned about the combination of AI plus algorithms that prioritize watch time over the actual like originality and like high quality nature of the content. I don't want to see us in a position where like we're just flooded by low quality, inaccurate misinformation that's just

like brain candy. That makes me, that makes me nervous. Because a lot of the times, like, I get asked why this sort of content is concerning. Like, why is it bad if like, you know, the U.S. like has vampires and like it's really silly? But I am worried about more so at scale what it means to be in digital spaces that are fundamental. prioritizing, like not just prioritizing, incentivizing, financially incentivizing content that is low quality and easy to pump out.

In what ways do you feel that TikTok's, this program is incentivizing junk like this? Well, so if you're paying creators, if you're financially rewarding people for content based on how viral it is, the end result, it makes sense is that you're going to get a lot of people of just trying to pump out as much content that will go as viral as possible,

rather than actually funding the creators who do their own, you know, their own original high-quality work. Because I do want to see them funded. Of course I do. Like, I want the platforms to pay the creators who are the backbone of the platforms. Like, TikTok would not be good if it weren't for all the creators out there making that content.

I would like to see them to see them compensated. but I want to make sure that we are, we have systems in place so that they are the ones being compensated and not people that are just flooding the feeds with Sabretoothed tiger conspiracy theories. The reason why I like TikTok to begin with is that I felt like they were my people and that the people, it was people who wanted to go deep on an issue. And it's like everything you ever wanted to know about this specific thing, if that is your jam, rock with me and I'll tell you, we'll get into the nitty gritty minutia. But getting into the nitty-gritty minutia of something takes research. It takes time. You can't just plug it into an AI system and have it, poof, create that kind of content. It really takes, as you know, it takes a lot of time.

And I worry that it's so much easier to, rather than reward that person who's putting so much time and effort into making the thoughtful deep dive content that we all love, it's so much easier to just throw money at people who have completely gamified this via AI, just flooding the space with junk. And I don't know, like you, I worry about what that says about our larger information ecosystem. Yeah, it is concerning. I think it's also presenting like a good challenge that we could potentially, you know, figure out how to climb together. Like I'm trying to be inspirational here. I think that there is an opportunity here to figure out what it looks like to create a better system.

Like we know what the end result is of just, like simply prioritizing just engagement overall else. And so like what are we going to do to try to also incentivize accurate high quality information? One question I do have is, is this against TikTok's terms of service or rules in some way? Like I, my understanding is that TikTok has rules that prohibit misleading or inaccurate content, but it seems like they're allowing, not just allowing this. of content on their platform, but allowing creators to be profiting off of it.

Yeah. So I'm a little bit confused on this one. So here's what I know. So I know that we published this in February. And a TikTok spokesperson told Axios in late March that conspiracy theories are not eligible to earn money or to be recommended in for you feeds on TikTok. I have gone since then and looked and found plenty of the exact same, right, formula of conspiracy theories that are just over a minute long using that AI generated text to speech and the spooky music and the editing and the images, like all of that. And I've seen videos that were posted since then. That seems a little inconsistent.

The way they've talked about their newest update to the community guidelines, around conspiracy theories doesn't seem to reflect that. So they said that conspiracy theories that are unfounded and claim that certain events or situations are carried out by covert or powerful groups, such as, quote, the government or a secret society are not eligible for Upage recommendation. I don't know where a lot of these fall on that. it's just unclear exactly what TikTok is enforcing and what they're allowing to be monetized. And something we've seen time and time again is that the people who create this,

especially if they're doing it for profit, are so good at creating content that really skirts that gray area and staying just on the other side of that line to keep them on the platform and to keep the money coming in. Yeah. So the conspiracy theory is about like the unfounded that are unfounded and claim about certain events being carried out by secret powerful groups. That's FYP ineligible. What's not allowed on TikTok are conspiracy theories that name an attack an individual.

Oh, so it seems like it seems like it wouldn't be that hard to create content that would be eligible but still does the same kind of thing in spirit, just not in specificity. Yeah. Like, you know, because like the video that I talked about with an AI or seemingly AI Joe Rogan predicting that Texas will sustain. from the U.S. starting a second civil war on May 14th, which would then lead to an all-out nuclear war. That was uploaded on April 5th, and it has over 800,000 views. It's a concerning video to be making a claim and to be using such a well-known figure that a lot of people do

get their information from to claim that you have special knowledge from a time traveler, claiming that you're aware of imminent civil war? Like, where does that fall within these guidelines that we've set up? Where does that fall within the guidelines that TikTok has set up? And I got to say, not for nothing, if I'm Joe Rogan, I would be so insulted that this is the kind of content that people think they can plausibly associate with me. Unrelated to this whole conversation, I would really be taking a step back if I were him and be like, wow, people think that I would be giving them content about cryptids and stuff.

And, like, that's what people would associate with me. And people will be like, oh, yeah, I buy that. I would be so insulted and I would be taking a step back to deeply reflect on the kind of content I'm known for. I think you and Joe Rogan might be different in certain fundamental ways, Bridget. I mean, listen, like, when the whole Joe Rogan, the last time that we talked about Joe Rogan, one of the points I made was like, we, like, I'm not saying I'm such a great podcaster, but like, come on. I wouldn't do that. It does. But, okay, the issue, though, of like taking a celebrity figure, especially someone that is, like,

trusted by a bunch of people, straight men across America. And, you know, altering them with this AI voice and putting this information in their mouths, like where I want to see more, much more of a conversation happening from TikTok, but also from other platforms, but like, where does this stand within policy? Because TikTok's community guidelines only prohibit this sort of like misleading AI generated content of a public figure who is being degraded or harassed, engaging in criminal or antisocial behavior, taking a position on political issues, commercial products, and or a matter of public importance or being politically endorsed or condemned.

So the policy doesn't really seem to account for AI-generated content of Joe Rogan claiming that a time traveler predicted civil war. Yeah. And I think it really exposes some gaps in policies that these people are exploiting to make a quick book. Yeah. And I mean, the more that we're having these conversations around AI, right, we're learning more ways that it's going to be used that maybe we hadn't thought of before.

And, like, a lot of the conversations that I saw, especially early on around AI and, like, deep fakes and deep fakes of celebrities or politicians was like, oh, my God, they're going to deep fake world leaders and say that, like, they're launching nuclear war and it's going to start nuclear war, right? It was like this really high stakes kind of discussions about how deep fakes can affect us. And it's like, okay, but what about like really low effort deep? I'm using deep fakes because it's using just regular video of him with an AI generated voice. What about that and how that affects regular people and not like high up politicians? Like how about that? I just want to see this evolution in our conversations around AI. Yeah, that's something that I really see a lot of where so often, and I get it.

Like I don't think it's wrong, but so often we're talking about how. high-level deep fakes. So we're not talking about things like low-effort cheap fakes, which I think are arguably easier to make. And we're talking about like, oh, how will it disrupt this high-level system, which is important to talk about. But we also should be talking about how is, how might it disrupt the thing that most people are coming into into contact with every day, which is the way our digital ecosystem, our information ecosystem. And I don't know, I think that the conversation needs to have both of like how it is impacting people at this high level and also the thing in their hands that they are most likely to be coming into contact with these kinds of inaccurate

content buys. Does that make sense? Yeah, of course. Do you have any idea how many people have fallen victim to those like cheap fake Taylor Swift is selling cooking wear ads? Yes. It's everywhere. And like and I don't think it should be just. just on the individual to have to figure out, like, well, is Taylor Swift actually endorsing this cooking ad or whatever? Like, like, we've, it's clearly a bigger institutional problem that is not going to be solved by just only individuals being more savvy. Yeah, and that's an issue that we run into a lot of the time with conversations around media literacy. We're like, media literacy, digital literacy, they're amazing. They're great. I highly encourage them in, you know,

all aspects of education for all ages. But there are a lot of the time only going to reach some of the most privileged in society. And you're going to need to be constantly evolving as digital spaces evolve too. So you're always in this game of catch up. And it's also fundamentally just putting the burden on users who a lot of the time straight up don't have the time to go learn how to spot, you know, GAN, like, generated images. Like, they don't know how to do that. And that's fully okay.

They have lives. Like, that burden should not be on consumers. That burden should be on the platforms that are hosting that content and a lot of time profiting off it. More after a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guide. Not quite. Unhumor me with

Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk, to David Letterman, Help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and headwriter, Streeter Seidel, help an acapella band with their between songs banter. There's that worst singer in the group? The worst?

Yeah. Me. Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard, you only got in because your parents made a huge donation. The group. The yard birds, right? That's the name. The Harvard Yardt.

They're open. Do you have a name suggestion? We're open. Since you guys are middle. age. One erection. Listen to humor me with Robert Smygel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Humor me.

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its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer-beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context and ask the questions everybody wants answered.

Sports slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to SportsSlic on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slicelife-Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Life throws hurdles big and small. The question is, how do you conquer them? On Hurtle with Emily Abadi, we sit down with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness, professional athletes, coaches, and Olympic champions to talk about the challenges that shaped them and the mindset that keeps them going.

From the WMBA standout, Kate Martin, and rising hockey star, Laila Edd. words. If a boy can do it, I don't see why a girl can't. Like, I've never understood that. Like, it didn't make sense in my brain. It's hard to be in spaces that no one looks like you, but don't ever feel like you don't belong. Don't let that be the reason you don't do it. An Olympic champs Gabby Thomas and Katie Ladeki. The ability to show a gold medal to someone have their face light up and smile, that means the world to me. And that's what motivates me to win more gold medals. At our level, at this scale, like being able to fail in front of the entire world. Like, I can do anything. I can do anything. Because resilience isn't just about

winning. It's about showing up, even when it's hard. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHart Women's Sports. Jacob Kingston grew up in an isolated polygamous sect. We were God's chosen kingdom on earth. He felt destined for greatness. So when a Swaggering Armenian businessman catapults Jacob into an extraordinary world. He doesn't look back. Ferraris and Lamborghinis, private jets, meeting the president of Turkey. I'm Michelle McPhee, and this is one of the most shocking criminal conspiracies I've ever come across.

When Jacob met Levin this plant to a billion dollar fraud. But with two kings from entirely different worlds, just how long can their empire survive? The largest tax investigation in American history. You need to tell me what you know. Is somebody coming after me? Jacob told Levan, you're ruining my life. Listen to Kingdom of Fraud on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's get right back into it.

Now, like anything else, this is just a hustle. It's a grift. People are doing it because it makes them quick, easy money. and they can also make money from purporting to teach other people how to do the grift as well, the grift within the grift. Do you see coordination with these accounts? Like I know that you, in the piece, you figured out that some of these accounts were sort of associated with each other. Do you think that these folks are like back channeling and trying to tell others, like, well, here's how you do it. Here's how you can make these kinds of videos.

Here's what works. Here's the communities that you should be targeting, that kind of thing. Oh, yeah, there's a whole cottage industry around this sort of content farming a little bit. It's what I was seeing was you would have these accounts going viral on TikTok with a decent number of followers. And they would have a link oftentimes to a Discord server in their TikTok bio. And so I started joining these Discord servers and watching them talk about how they create this content. And typically the way I saw it be run was that there was like one dude, running the Discord server. Again, haven't seen a woman do it yet. I hope a girl boss gets in on it,

but I haven't seen it yet. And so if one dude's running the Discord server, he'll maybe make like YouTube videos about how to make this content and like weekly videos like on like the next hot niche to get in. Like maybe it's conspiracy theories, maybe it's horror, maybe it's history, maybe it's top three videos, maybe it's like men's motivational workout content or just like men with deep voices saying motivational quotes. And they're teaching people how to do it. And they often have a premium level of some sorts. You could pay them like $70 a month or something to go and be their protege.

And like they just give you like one-on-one feedback a lot of the time or like special access to courses and stuff. And then there's a back and forth in these communities where you have these Discord servers of people. sharing tips on like how to make content, like, or what sort of content's performing well, what sort of rate of like, how much money are you guys getting per million views for each type of content? How can I switch my content so that it targets a wealthier demographic? That sort of discourse. I saw a lot of the time in these communities. It's so interesting to me how there's a component of it that's like, oh, if you pay me, I'll teach you.

Like, there's always, there's always a little bit of a, an overlap with like a life coaching scam or like an ML. But there's always a little something of that in there. Do you know what I mean? I mean, the grift just keeps on giving. The grift within the grift. The grift on, grift on grift on grip. There was like this affiliate marketing level to it where it was like, use this AI service.

And then if you get people to use your. affiliate code, you'll get X money. And so there were a lot of layers to it. I think that when we're dealing with communities that are susceptible to messaging about Get Rich Quick, you're going to inevitably end up with a lot of different sorts of grifts that could emerge. Throw some supplements in there, like throw some like, oh, the grift is deep, as you said. The grift runs deep. So we were talking a bit about thinking about how this works in a high level way. But I guess I'm wondering, you know, 2024 is a pretty big election year, not just in the United States globally. I think more

countries than ever before in history have elections this year. I'm wondering, what do you see as at stake for all of this as we head into such an important global election year? Immediately, my blood pressure spikes. Like, see, a lot of these videos weren't inherently what you would say like political using air quotes because you know everything's political but like you know governments hiding a vampire isn't really taking a partisan side necessarily um i did see some that were overtly political like one that was like Biden is you know controlling the water or something and stuff like that i think what i'm worried about is the system at large it's like we're coming into this election year, and now we have a whole group of people who are really skilled at

cranking out AI-generated content that is inaccurate. And we know what performs well. We know that you can flood feeds with this stuff. And so I'm very worried about how easy it is to manufacture this content and how easy it is to make it like really engaging. So for folks who are listening and are thinking like, well, I use TikTok, but what the heck am I supposed to do about this? Is there anything that you would, like, is there a role for the regular TikTok use or that they should be playing in combating this, not falling for it, just creating a bet, the kind of internet ecosystem that we actually would want to live in? I mean, I think that the best piece of advice I can give specifically for this sort of content is like a strict non-engagement policy.

If you see it and you see Joe Rogan is there and it's badly dubbed and maybe he's having a conversation with another like badly dubbed Jordan Peterson or whatever, that's a good time to like report it as inauthentic content or, you know, misinformation if it is misinformation. information and like scroll class or like say you're not interested in it, I think that one of the best things that we can do is just show that we aren't engaging and go about your life and maybe go outside, maybe touch some grass, maybe smell a flower, give someone a hug. So that is great advice for individuals. But what about institutions like TikTok? Like one thing I imagine they could do is provide a little more transparency around this content. Like why shouldn't we know whether or not the thing that we are being shown? is making whoever posted it money.

I should say too, it's like impossible to know which of these are monetized. I don't have that insight from TikTok of like which accounts monetized versus which isn't. But they all, I mean, they're all still sitting all of the requirements

that we described in that February article that indicate that they're being used by creators looking to monetize their content. But I would love from TikTok to potentially a way to know, you know, I would like some more transparency on that front to know what's being monetized. How are they enforcing it, right? Like, what does that actually look like?

Because they say that for the creator rewards program, all videos are before they're actually monetized before they begin that process of being monetized. They are approved by somebody. And how strict is that? Like, what does that actually look like? How many videos are being rejected and, like, on what grounds? I want a lot more transparency from them around the entire system of monetization that they are creating. And I think we deserve that.

Like, when I'm making a podcast, I legally have to say when I am being paid to say something and it's an ad and when not, right? Like, we deserve to know what does the financial situation look like from the person who is telling me something. Are they just telling me because they're making that content and they like it? Are they telling me that because they've been monetized in some way? I don't know. I don't think that that's a bridge too far to expect a little transparency behind. No, I mean, I would argue that we deserve much more than that. I think that the bar is on the grounds, but I do think that we deserve to know when there is a very clear financial incentive for certain types of content. You know, is this person making flat earth content because they are

genuinely a flat earther and like they believe it with their full chest or are they making it because they know that it'll get millions of views and that they'll get money. And, like, that's a big difference. And I do want to know where that line is. Like, I just, I want to know more about, because I can never know people's motivation. There are still lots of grifters, even when financial motives are very clear. But I still think that that transparency is a very good starting thing. Absolutely.

Abby, thank you so much for being here. It is always a pleasure. I literally love nothing more. Let's hang out. I'll see you in Berlin. Hopefully a little more sober this time. Absolutely not. Hopefully more drunk.

Hopefully. If we're doing it right, less sober. If you're looking for ways to support the show, check out our merch store at tangooty.com slash store. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi? You can reach us at hello at tangooty.com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangoity.com. There are no girls on the internet was created by me, Bridget Todd.

It's a production of IHeart Radio and Unbossed creative. Edited by Joey Pat. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from IHeartRadio, check out the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter.

Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get. your podcasts. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where SportsSlice comes in. I'm Timbo, and every episode

we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the biggest moments in sports and giving you the real story behind the headline. And we're going straight to the source the athletes themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions in the moment, and the stuff nobody gets to hear. Listen to Sports Slice on the Iheart

radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slic Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Life is full of hurdles. So how do you keep going? On Hurtle with Emily Abadi,

we're talking with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness from professional athletes, coaches, and Olympic champions about the challenges that shape them and the mindset that keeps them moving forward. At our level, at this scale, being able to fail in front of the entire world.

Like, I can do anything. I can do anything. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the eye heart. Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. I'm Michelle McPhee, and I've been unraveling the strangest criminal alliance I've ever reported on, a Mormon polygamist, and an Armenian businessman.

Multi-million dollar house, Ferraris and Lamborghinis, private jets, a billion dollar fraud. But how long can this alliance last? Tell me what you know. Is somebody coming after? me. Listen to Kingdom of Fraud on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full

year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an I-Heart podcast, guaranteed human.