There Are No Girls on the Internet - Andrew Huberman is the internet’s favorite guru. Can we trust him? - CONCLUSION

Episode Date: April 3, 2024

Previously on TANGOTI...    This is part two of our two-part look at Dr. Andrew Huberman.  If you haven’t listened to part 1, you will definitely need to dip into that episode to have the context.  To recap, Andrew Huberman is a very famous, popular podcaster and neuroscientist who has been giving guidance to millions on how to hack their lives.  New York Mag just published a piece with the stories of 6 women in his life who allege that he mistreated them, and also looking into some of his questionable science and ethical practices, like endorsing dubious supplements.  I’m joined by my producer Mike, who is also a scientist, to get into why we’re so quick to build flawed people up into gurus.   Andrew Huberman’s Mechanisms of Control The private and public seductions of the world’s biggest pop neuroscientist. https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/andrew-huberman-podcast-stanford-joe-rogan.html Andrew Huberman Has Supplements on the Brain: https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/critical-thinking-health-and-nutrition/andrew-huberman-has-bad-case-supplement-brain So, Should You Trust Andrew Huberman? https://slate.com/technology/2024/03/andrew-huberman-huberman-lab-health-advice-podcast-debunk.htmlSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. There Are No Girls on the Internet as a production of IHeart Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. So this is part two of our episode on Dr. Andrew Huberman. If you have not listened to Part 1, you're probably going to want to listen to that before you listen to this to have the context. But to recap, Andrew Huberman is a very famous, very popular podcaster and neuroscientist, who has been giving guidance to millions of people on how to hack their way to a better life.

New York Mag just published a piece with the stories of six women in Dr. Huberman's life, who alleged that he mistreated them. and also looking at some of his questionable science and ethical practices, like endorsing dubious supplements. I'm joined by producer Mike, who is also a scientist, to get into why we're all so quick to build up law of people into gurus. You and I were talking about this off mic, Mike, weird thing to say, about what exactly you think is going on here, right?

So after doing all my research for this episode, I have totally changed my mind. I go back to this episode that we did early in Tangodi's history with Afoma Uzoma, who was formerly at Pinterest. She developed the platform's first ever medical misinformation policy. And in our conversation, she told me that it's really not that deep. Like a lot of the people who push medical misinformation are just scammers, right? They're just using fear or whatever or like junk science to get people to give them money for whatever scam supplement or scam course they're selling or whatever.

And I think I'm kind of coming around to the fact that maybe Huberman is like a little bit of a scammer. Like, like maybe it's not like, like, maybe it's not that deep. He is just like a snake oil salesman who gets rich from selling snake oil. So he is using his scientific credentials to boost that snake oil. Yeah, I agree. I think that's a big piece of it here, right? Like it's not in dispute that he is aggressively promoting supplements that do not have evidence-based. to demonstrate their effectiveness.

And he's getting rich off that, right? That's like literally, you know, I guess it's not literally, but it is a direct analogy to selling snake oil. Yeah, good old fashioned scammer. I do think that he's a little bit more interesting or different than a lot of your garden variety scammers just because he's so much more educated and is like a bona fide scientist making scientific contributions.

and seems to be a very introspective person. So, like, I'm just so fascinated the story he tells himself to justify selling that snake oil. Well, Andrew Huberman's whole thing is, like, a storytelling exercise about himself, like a myth-making exercise about himself. Like, the sort of story that he tells about himself is that he was a troubled kid. His parents handled his divorce in a way that left him, neglected and unparented. His parents kind of dispute that, but whatever.

And that he was sent to sort of a facility for troubled youth and that talk therapy is what saved him. And he wanted to dedicate his life to like helping others because of that. And he got into Stanford despite the fact that he was this like troubled youth who was like essentially unparented. The piece says what does seem certain is that in adolescence, Andrew became a regular consumer of talk therapy. In therapy, one learns to tell.

stories about one's experience. A story one could tell is I overcame immense odds to be where I am. Another is the son of a Stanford professor born at Stanford Hospital grows up to be a Stanford professor. Like, I do think that he maybe is somebody who, like we all do in certain effects, but like gets down on the story that he tells himself and that story sort of becomes the truth. And so maybe the story that he tells himself, like the story that I tell myself when I have to do ad reads is like, if I didn't do these ad reads, the people who make my podcast would not be able to be paid. I would not be able to be paid. The show would not be able to go on. Right. And so that's the story I tell myself when I'm doing ad reads for our sponsors,

all of whom I love and respect very much. But I think like, that's the story that I have to tell myself to feel okay about doing these ad reads, even though nobody likes ads. I think it's different when you are a scientist telling yourself a story that makes it okay to use. your credentials as a scientist to maybe lead people into things that are risky. Yeah, especially when you are publicly preaching introspection and discipline and accountability, those all seem like virtues that maybe he should take a deeper look at. Yeah, this is kind of going off script here, but like you were saying how the popular guru who doesn't take their own advice and is not living the values that they preach in public,

Like that is such a well-worn thing that's almost a cliche at this point. I wonder what it is about Huberman that makes it so hard to see this well-worn trope playing out in before our eyes. Because I think that's in part kind of what's going on here with Huberman. But it's so interesting to me how people are like, but he's a scientist, but he's introspective, but he's very thoughtful. He's different. Maybe it's just the power of marketing, the power, how people really. want to believe that what he's doing is so much different than the Dr. Oz's of the world because of the way he packages it so effectively as being different. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

I haven't listened to his podcast, but in the research for doing this, you know, I read a couple articles that were talking about it. And all of them mentioned when he's interviewing guests or speaking in public, you know, it's characterized by a humility. and kindness and compassion. And I could imagine that all of those would be things that would disarm a audience and make them feel like the person could be trusted, right, and feel more connected to them.

Like, humility is super powerful. But even that reminds me of the way these women say that he used that same kind of language to control them. You know, that's sort of like, like at one point when one of the women realizes that he cheated on her, he texts her like something along the lines of, I hear you and I'm willing to hear you for as long as you need. Which, again, it's almost like therapy speak to get away with bad behavior. And I wonder if that's part of it, like using a certain kind of disarming language and disarming presentation and disarming, you know, vibe to really effectively trick people into trust. you and to trick them into not seeing what is so obviously in front of their own eyes or happening in their own ears. Like I don't, it's like, some of this stuff is not in dispute.

It's not in dispute that he takes money from supplement companies. And it's not in dispute that supplement companies are notoriously not transparent and rely on junk science, if any science at all. Those things are not in dispute. So the fact that people are like, no, he would never. It's like, he would not dispute that that is what's happening. Yeah, it's a good question. What is, Is it about him that makes people like him and want to follow his advice? But clearly he's done very well at it. And I think it is an important question for us all to consider. I think part of it's got to be that he's hot.

Probably helps. Like he's like jacked. He has glasses. Like I don't know. Like I think he's someone that maybe a lot of the male listeners in his audience want to see themselves in. Like who would not want to be like, oh yeah, I'm this like jacked, ripped guy. who has glasses, but it's also a scientist and can maybe juggle women in an unethical way.

Like, I think that men are identifying with him in a certain way, and that is maybe making it hard for them to see what is happening so plainly right out and open. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, there's a lot of ways in which the life he's leading feels aspirational. Mm-hmm. I completely agree. So Dr. Andrea Love, her piece just makes him sound like a good old-fashioned scammer. Again, I will link to it in the show notes. She should definitely read it. So she points out that he has somebody who uses dubious science to put people off of accepted medical interventions like fluoride or vaccines, even when there is broad medical consensus about it in service of suggesting an alternative that he has a financial stake in. So Dr. Love says that

Huberman uses false balance, the fallacy that equal and opposite sides always exists. Take his thoughts on fluoride. While fluoride has been used for decades to prevent dental disease, Huberman gives the impression that there is an ongoing debate among experts about its use and reasons for his listeners to be careful about how much fluoride-containing tap water they consume. During his oral health podcast episode, Huberman undermines consensus data on fluoride, endorses fluoride-free toothpaste, as well as a Yerba-Mate tea company that uses fluoride-free water and which he is a business partner of, and cites a dentist who spreads fear about fluoride as his expert reference. Huberman positions this for his listeners as information to make the best decision,

as though we all need to be carefully thinking about our fluoride levels. Yeah, again, cherry-picking. Here it sounds like he cherry-picked particular expert who has an ax to grind about fluoride while ignoring the vast majority of dentists who are in consensus that fluoride is a positive thing to promote oral health. And when we were talking about his cold and flu episode, where he was talking about how he doesn't always get the flu shot because it is not effective unless the shot protects from that exact strain of flu going around that year, which is not totally accurate, you were like, well, why would he do that? You know, what does he have to gain in discrediting vaccines? And again, if you believe Dr. Andrea Love, it comes down to those supplements that he sells. Having a paid sponsor is not a disqualifier in and of itself, she writes. But when your financial conflicts of interest seem to dictate your content, it should be. after dismissing legitimate data in the flu episode, his lengthy, quote, science-backed discussion to prevent colds and flu boiled down to an extended commercial for taking supplements. So all of me has me wondering, which I think is the point of the New York MAG piece, why do we look to anybody for their life advice? Like, why do we make people into gurus in the first place?

It does not surprise me that Huberman really got famous, famous in the 2021 era of COVID. You know, we were all sort of alone and disconnected and looking for some solution or some antidote to that. You weren't sleeping well. You weren't eating well maybe. Like the vibes were terrible. So in a lot of way, I think the public, we were just like easy marks during that time. Yep, just a bunch of dupes with money. Yeah.

Looking for a quick fix. Yep. Ruge. Looking for a solution. And you and I kind of talked about this off, Mike, but it's one of the reasons why, like, Life advice content. Like, I'm not somebody who really, unless I'm really having a dark time of desperation, like I'm not someone who listens to lifestyle or life advice podcasts.

I don't like career advice podcasts. I just don't like this idea that one person has a one-size-fits-all solution. This is my opinion. I don't think life works that way. I think people are really complex. People have very complex motivations and desires and needs and hang-ups. I don't see how a stranger could speak to that in any way that is effective. I'm not saying, I don't not saying anybody should like, because you're a bad person.

If you listen to that, I just feel like anybody who is like wearing a blazer and crossing their arms and being like, I have the answer. Something in me automatically is like suspect of that. I 100% agree. Yeah, anybody who says that they have the answer, huge red flag. And I'm somebody who loves learning from people. There are so many smart people in the world who have insight, who have wisdom, who talk about interesting philosophical and ethical questions that help me understand the world and help me decide how to live my life. But I feel like there's a very fine line where that crosses over into solutions. And therefore, you should do X, Y, Z. You should buy this supplement.

You should adopt my patented. life routine. Once they start hawking a specific solution, that red flag gets a little bit higher, and then when that solution is something that you can buy, it's time for me to walk away. You've lost me. You've lost me. Let's take a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guide, not quite.

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Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard, you only got in because your parents made a huge donation. The group. The yard birds, right? That's the name. The Harvard yard, but they're open to change. Do you have a name suggestion? We're open.

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And we're back. I think we're kind of in a golden age of the snake oil salesman who can use digital mediums like podcasts or social media to demonstrate that they have it all figured out, that they have the kind of life that is aspirational

that you would want to live. It's basically how MLM. like operate of like my life looks dope as hell on Instagram. Don't you want to live like I do? If you buy this thing, you can. And so I think that we're kind of in a golden era of coaches and lifestyle gurus and wellness people and people selling courses. Just like, and I'm not saying all of those are are bunk because I certainly don't know.

But like, I think that we're in an era where people are looking for a solution. to the way that things feel right now. And there's always going to be somebody willing to take their money offering that solution. And we got to be extra careful about who and why we elevate to that platform. I think you're absolutely right. And I think that really intersects with the fact that he is a scientist and that, you know, speaking from science is part of his brand on the podcast. You know, he's somebody who looks really good on videos, looks good on Instagram, is good at managing social media, can build this following, leads this like aspirational, cool looking life, which makes people want to emulate him.

And if he's, you know, giving advice, it's reasonable to think that, oh, if I take that advice, my life could look like his. So the things that he's saying must be true because his life looks pretty good. He's healthy. He's wealthy. He's sleeping with a bunch of women. But that's so different from how evidence gets evaluated in science. You look at evidence, you look at multiple studies, do they agree, do they disagree, look across the balance of all of the evidence to reach conclusions based on the evidence that's

there in a transparent evaluation of the methods that were used to create those conclusions. It's much more boring than an Instagram reel or a YouTube video, but that's how scientific conclusions get reached. And I think that's maybe why it's so. easy and feel so dangerous for people who have scientific authority due to their institutional positions and just take that over to Instagram in popular culture to start dispensing advice that is not within their area of expertise. Yes. And I think that like that's the real scandal that I think the piece is trying to highlight. The scandal is not to me like how he treated women badly in his personal life.

It is that he enjoys this pedestal of like men of science and knowledge and enjoys all of the respect that comes with that while also behaving in ways that are like really small and like maybe unethical and maybe like anti-science. Like he wasn't trying to unlock the science of all of us living our best lives. Like maybe he was a little bit.

But it sounds like it was also an enterprise to personally enrich himself, get and control women and have fame. Like I said, small. That's not a super respectable, you know, man of science behavior. That is like small man driven by desire and vice behavior. Yeah. I mean, if you were to, you know, take a stoic approach to it, one should be leading a virtuous life and none of those things sound very virtuous. Ultimately, nobody likes to pursue vice and hedonism and, you know, desire more than your girl right here. So, like,

I'm not judging, but to create an entire platform around the importance of discipline and avoiding this and avoiding that, while you are privately courting your version of those things yourself. Like, I don't think he's somebody who was like preaching, not drinking and then drinking alcohol, but he is somebody who preaches like, avoid dopamine. And then like clearly has these like dopamine driven relationships with women that are very chaotic based on lies. Like, I think that's the scandal. The writer Justin Murphy put it really beautifully on Twitter, he writes, the Huberman's story is not altogether trivial. The smartest men in every generation of Western history have generally converged on the idea that knowledge and cultivation

involve a certain conquest of the appetites. Obviously, men who are successful economically and socially are free to indulge their appetites and often do. The story is not surprising or informative if you already had Huberman pegged as playing primarily an economic and social game. The story is surprising and damning if you saw him as playing a game of knowledge and cultivation. It is not therefore a totally vacuous story, as many seem to be saying. In the eyes of any classically educated observer, it is a precipitous fall in the stock price of rationalist, materialist, utilitarian frameworks for living. For many people, Huberman was not just a purveyor of useful information, but an image

of wisdom, an image of a cultivated man. No longer, obviously, except for the most naive. You can know everything there is to know about the body and have all the followers in the world and not exceed the wisdom of the average 25-year-old man. The scandal of the story is not Huberman's immorality, which is common and generic. The scandal is ethical. Someone who is famous for having tremendous knowledge of how to live does not himself live in a beautiful way. Common and generic. That's got to sting. Yeah, I mean, I guess that's the disconnect that, like, people want to see Huberman as this learned man of science and knowledge and cultivation, which is so

high-minded and, like, elevated. In reality, he's trying to get a check and get his dick wet. Like, that, like, that is, like, generic and small-minded. I can tell you, that was another men I know who are the same way, trying to get the same shit. It's not, like, I'm not trying to demonize him for it, but let's call it what it is. And, like, I think from the article, that is, like, plainly what it is. And I guess ultimately the question is, like, does this matter?

Here's where the New York Magpiece leaves it. There is an argument to be made that it does not matter how a helpful podcaster conducts himself outside of the studio. A man unable to constrain his urges may still preach dopaminergic control to others. Morning sun still remains salutary. The physiological sigh employed by this writer many times in the writing of this essay continues to affect calm. That's one of his trademark tactics is a specific sigh that's supposed to calm you down. The large and growing distance between Andrew Huberman and the man he continues to be may not even matter to those who buy questionable products he has recommended and from which he will materially benefit,

or listeners who imagined a man in a white coat at work in Palo Alto. The people who definitively find the space between fantasy and reality to be a problem are women who fell for a podcaster who professed deep, sustained concern for their personal growth and who, in his skyrocketing influence, continue to project an image of earnest self-discovery. It is here in the false belief of two minds in synchronicity and exploration, that deception leads to harm. They fear it will lead to more. So yeah, what a piece, beautifully written.

And I think that's kind of the so what? These women are just raising the alarm that this guy who is trafficking offices, his scientific credentials, is maybe actually not who he says he is. And the public should know if he's going to be a guru, there should be some transparency around that. Yeah, you know,

anybody who stands up and says, I have the answer. It is reasonable to inspect how they live their life. More after a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guide. Not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman,

help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and headwriter, Streeter Seidel, help an acapella band with their between songs banter. There's that worst singer in the group. The worst? Yeah. Me. Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard,

you only got in because your parents made a huge donation. The yard birds, right? That's the name. The Harvard Yardt. They're open. Do you have a name suggestion? We're open. Since you guys are middle-aged.

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So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHeart. Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Call 844-844-I-heart to get started. That's 844-8-4-8-4-I-heart. Last night, a blown call changed a game.

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And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Let's get right back into it. So a lot of Huberman supporters are really digging in and defending him. Maybe those are just the loudest ones. Maybe people who were like casual listeners of his podcast are like, I don't know. Like that article seemed fair. Who cares? It is so interesting really because, you know, I wonder if a lot of the people who listen to Huberman really identified with him or maybe his lifestyle was like really aspirational to them.

And so when he is being called out in this way, maybe they feel. personally threatened, and that is why they are coming to his defense. So specifically, like, Lex Friedman was like, he is a personal friend of mine, and this is a hit job. Again, I was not able to read Lex Friedman's entire statement because he has me blocked. But this idea that because you are a listener of his podcast, or even like Lex, like, you know him personally, that you would know the intimacies of his, like, romantic life and how he shows up sexually and romantically. Like, I have plenty of close friends and I don't know the ins and outs of how they get down sexually and romantically, and I would never, I would never pretend that I did, right? Like, I find it really

interesting how many people are so loudly coming to his defense. Like, I follow and enjoy plenty of podcasters that I don't personally know. There is not one of them that I can think of, that I would read like a long, critical deep dive into their work and their history and their values that I wouldn't come away thinking like, oh, maybe they had a few points. To see people summarily dismissing this as a hit job to defend Huberman, like he is someone they know. And it's interesting how this has become this kind of culture wars thing where it's like, oh, they're just attacking him for no reason.

And I'm not even going to like, it's all bunk. Right. And so like they're not even engaging with the pieces of the article that are not about his romantic life, right? Like the way that he talked about that colleague of his that was a woman, that's not about his romantic life. His relationship with AG1 and supplements, that's not about his romantic life. Like the questions about his own myth-making and his background, that's not about his romantic life.

Are those not questions that need answers and deserve scrutiny for somebody who is bolstering themselves as a public guru? Yeah, it's not surprising that it has sort of been framed and is being talked about as yet another culture war of us versus them. I think another lens that we can look at it is earlier we made an analogy to conspiracy theories where his scientific rationale, behind this or that solution is often like cherry picked. It'll be like a germ of truth in there, but then build this elaborate just so story around it that it sounds like in a lot of cases leads to the conclusion that you should buy some product

that he's selling. And similarly here, his followers, I suspect a lot of them are true believers, when confronted with a critical piece like this New York MAG article, just reject it, right? The same way that when you present somebody who believes in a conspiracy theory,

with evidence that refuse that conspiracy, they will in most cases just double down and the conflicting evidence is somehow reinterpreted in a way that makes them believe in the conspiracy even more strongly. It feels like there's something similar going on here as well.

Well, I can tell you who a lot of his defenders are saying is behind this hit piece. Big Pharma. Big Pharma doesn't like that Andrew Huberman is preaching the powers of meditation and sunlight and ice baths

and supplements They want us all hooked on the big pharma machine. And that's why New York MAG is like writing this like well-researched, well-written take down of his life. Yeah. They're just a front for big pharma. I'm no big fan of the pharmaceutical industry. They do lots of like pretty shady harmful stuff, no question.

But in this case, yes, dismissing this piece as a hit piece by big pharma, I feel like George Soros is just like one step away in that causal chain of dismissive logic. Oh, totally. And side note, like, I feel like whenever like this is a hit piece, an attack job by Big Pharma, whenever that is the go-to line of defense, it really tells me a lot about the audience that the person has cultivated. Because that was the same thing that they used to defend Joe Rogan when people like me were pointing out his use of information in the podcast space. They were like, oh, like, he isn't down with the COVID vaccine. He's interested in alternatives to curb COVID. So Big Pharma had to take him down. I feel like that

tells me so much about the audience that you have cultivated and what they are about and what they value what they don't value. Yeah, because it's not just listen to me. I have the answer. It's also don't listen to anybody else. They're trying to deceive you. And anybody who says anything critical about what this person is saying, they're not just wrong. They are like in the pocket of big pharma. Again, it's that total conspiratorial thinking that it's like, they don't just have a difference of opinion. It's like a nefarious plot. So in the fallout of all of this, people are really trying to come for the person who wrote the article, who is New York Mag writer Carrie Hawley, who I love Carrie's writing. Like, if you ever see a deep die written by Carrie,

go ahead and click it immediately. One of those writers that if anybody ever, calls me and is like, I'm fact-checking a piece by Carrie Howley. I'd like to ask you a few questions. I will be very concerned. Yeah, but can confirm it is so well written. It was like a joy to read. Even like setting the content aside, just the pros, the writing, it was refreshing. It was really nice. Yeah, totally agreed. So I hate to see Carrie being attacked in this way. Huberman retained the crisis PR firm called Scale Strategy. Fun fact, Scale Strategy is is brought to us by one of the guys who handled the disastrous WeWork IPO and was fired soon after. So one of the folks who might be on Huberman's crisis PR campaign to navigate the fallout of this article.

Something else I have seen is that a lot of his loudest defenders are saying, well, if Huberman has been juggling hot women this effectively, it means that the methods that he preaches on the podcast must be effective. Like he's really like a masculine guy. Like they're applauding what he has been accused of doing. And that makes him more likable in their eyes. And that is what I mean. Like that's the thing that I think that we're not coming right out and saying directly. I think that casual massagony and sexism and gaslighting women and demanding submission of women, I think all of this stuff isn't something that the audience that he has cultivated is at all bothered by.

In fact, quite the opposite. I think to them, this is a feature, not a bug. I think that they like this. I think that, like, the way he is accused of treating these women is not removed from the content that he makes on the podcast. I think it's all one big, intricate quilt. And I think it's all related. Yeah. And the fact that they aren't more bothered by the deception that is at the very root of it is worrisome and unfortunate.

it. You know, people can have different ideas about what dating and relationships and life should look like. But I feel like most people that I know in my personal life, even people who like have different political and social views than me, most people agree that deception is bad and you shouldn't use it. And it feels like there's something going on where public figures get a pass on that, that people would not allow peers or acquaintances. in their everyday life. Oh my gosh. I mean, I would argue that we are kind of in a golden era of scammers where people are willing

to close their eyes to the way that the people that they follow, the people that they have upheld as aspirational, they are very willing to close their eyes to the way that those people are moving right in front of their faces in a way that is deceptive. Like, this is a weird analogy, but there's this young black Mormon tradwife influencer who is really famous for making videos of her, like, baking in ball gowns to show off how much money she has, like shopping and blah, blah, blah. And I got into an argument on threads with somebody, another black woman about this. And she was like, people are hating on her because they hate to see a black woman live a life of luxury.

And, like, that's what she's doing. And she's like, being a good mom. And people just hate to see that when it's a black woman. And I was like, well, I'm a black woman. And I don't hate to see that. But this woman is a contact creator. The whole thing is like, artifice to make her money.

This isn't just how she lives her life. It's by nature performative. So I wasn't like getting down on this woman, but I was just saying like, let's be honest that this woman is a contact creator. She is setting up a tripod and lighting and wearing a specific outfit to do something performative to make money.

That's just what it is. And you would have thought that I called this woman a bad name. She was like, how dare you say that? And I was like, it's obviously performative. I don't even think that the woman in the videos would be like, oh, this is a realistic depiction of my life as someone who makes food for my kids.

Like, I just couldn't believe that an adult would be so willing to play into the scam that is so obviously unfolding in front of her. Not to say this woman is scamming, but I was surprised to see an adult unwilling or unable to call this what it was, a money-making enterprise. Do you know what I'm saying? I do, yeah. Like, why was it so important to her that this woman be deemed authentic and not performative. What is lost if you acknowledge the obvious truth that this is a performance to make

money? Yeah, it's a good question and maybe one for another episode. So, Bridget, I know that you, like, this story really got you. You read a bunch of stuff. You kept writing and writing and writing and writing. And thank you for doing all that. Let's land to this plane and bring it home. What is it about the story that really speaks to you? I think the story speaks to me for a lot of reasons. I think the response, it demonstrates how siloed and how charged everything is that you can't even, you know, deal with this story on its merits or like pick out the pieces that you might think like, well, that could be something. that the only way that people who are detractors of it can engage with it is as a hit job.

Two, this is so, maybe so petty, but like, it bums me out that this is what the podcast space looks like sometimes. That it's like it's such a space where through marketing and a certain kind of language and appeal, people can really build huge, powerful platforms that maybe when you look a little closer are not so great. and maybe you look even closer, maybe they're a little bit dangerous. And so I think that's my main takeaway is that I think that we all deserve good content. Like if you care about what you put in your body, part of that I think is that we deserve like good information. And we deserve good information from people who are not liars. And it sounds like from reading this piece that Huberman might be somebody who is so invested in personal myth-making and brand-building

and enrichment that he might be someone who is at risk for their platform causing some harm. And I think we got to look out for that. Yeah, totally agree. Well, Mike, you were in the document, my research document. When you saw it, it was five pages long. And then when you clicked in this morning, you were like, oh, it's 11 pages now. I could have kept going. Thank you for diving into all of this with me.

And listeners, I want to hear your thoughts. Are you a Huberman husband or someone, a follower of Daddy Huberman? That's what they call him on TikTok. I want to know. You can hit us up at hello at tango-di.com. Yeah, I'm also so curious if you listen to our show and you also listen to Huberman's show, we would love to hear your take. I know that there's a lot of good people who get a lot of value out of his content,

and so would just love to hear your take about this. Please let us know. Agreed. Hit us up. Thanks for having me, Bridget. Thanks, Mike. Not a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi? You can reach us at hello at tangoody.com.

You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangoody.com. There are no girls on the internet was created by me, Bridget Todd. It's a production of IHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tarry Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

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