There Are No Girls on the Internet - As global elections loom, women leaders are under attack - STUFF MOM NEVER TOLD YOU

Episode Date: June 11, 2024

2024 isn’t just an election year, it’s THE election year, with almost half the global population voting in elections this year. And unfortunately women leaders and candidates are facing identity based attacks just for wanting to serve their communities.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting. Think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than adds supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHeart's twice as large as the next two combined. Learn how podcasting can help your business. Call

844-844-I-Hart. Life is full of hurdles. So how do you keep going? On Hurtle with Emily Abadi, we're talking with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness from professional athletes, and Olympic champions about the challenges that shape them and the mindset that keeps them moving forward. At our level, at this scale, being able to fail in front of the entire world. Like, I can do anything. I can do anything. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. There Are No Girls on the Internet is a production of IHeart Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. 2024 is an important election year, not just here in the United States, but all over the globe. And we need to talk about how things like misogyny and misogynoir online are already shaping up to impact elections. So I joined my friends Samantha and Annie over at the podcast Stuff Mom Never Told You to take a look at how bias against women, particularly black women, might play out this election year. Hey, this is Annie.

And Samantha. And welcome to Stuff I Never Told You, a prediction of IHeart Radio. And today we are really lucky because we are once again joined by the fabulous and delightful Bridget Todd three times in this month. That's amazing. I know. And I love it. I'm like, keep coming on. How often can we have you on?

Let's do more stuff. I also love it. You know, the Hugh Hefner antics never end. Also, can I just say thank you for, if folks haven't listened to our Hugh Hefner conversation, I've got a lot out of. of it. And thank you for, like, I don't know, I feel like it was a meaty one, and people still listen to it. And, yeah, I'm grateful that we had the space. Yeah, I know. And of course, we stretched it out very long. We still left out so many things at the end that we do want to come back with maybe like a conversation about where Playboy and magazines that are today. And that will be a later

conversation. I swear to God, us later. Because there's so much. It is so deep. And, like, having going through all of that that conversation that was kind of at one point we're like this is abruptly ending and annie had to fix us because she's like y'all can't do it like that because that's too much but it was so much there was no like bits of it that was just like okay this is an easy easy going part there's no easy going part no yeah it's so true and like what a what a i don't know i've been listening to a lot of nostalgia podcast that are like oh remember when this or remember when that, like, you know, you're wrong about things like that. And it's like, what a weird time for the culture. What a weird thing that we all experienced together.

Like, it was normal and it really was not. Right. I'm wondering, though, because we are aging, slowly, like, slowly aging, y'all slower than me, it's fine, it's great. But like, looking back on things, a lot of this conversation is because things are revamping and we're seeing the younger generation doing their thing similar to what we already know and putting their own and like style to it, but watching it's kind of like, huh, that's not as original as you think. It's cute and I like your version, but just know that this was there before. But at the same time, I'm like, I wonder how many times the people before us also felt that way we're just coming into that same generational glitch of like, yeah, there it is.

This is why now I understand that the older generation would just look at us kind of funny and be like, what are you doing? This has been done. Anyway, I've had those moments lately. I had one watching a group of very young people wearing the oversized jeans that are so long that you are stepping on them and it was like a damp day

and I was like, ooh, I remember that feeling of like the jinko jeans that went over the back, the heels of your sneaker and would get wet and gross. Yuck. You're going to want the skinny jeans again one day. Yeah, like yuck. Oh, y'all are back there again. Okay, cool.

Let's see how that goes. I just have to put it in here and I'm not going to provide any more context than this, but Jinko jeans are very important in my Dungeons and Dragons campaign. That sounds about right. Can I ask a follow-up or no follow-up? I think Peaches has something to do with this.

Samantha's Dog Peaches is very much a inspiration in the campaign. Yeah. Well, I'll say this as I run the game, sometimes you've got to go with what the players are doing, and we're all from kind of the same generation. That millennial level of like, yeah. Yeah. Anyway.

We really appreciate you joining us today, Bridget. The topic you have for us is one that I admit is giving me a lot of anxiety. But I'm very glad that you're here to talk about it because it's so, so important. And there's a lot to break down. So let's go ahead and get into it. Yeah, I feel the same anxiety and angst that you're feeling. I'm feeling, and that is that we have an upcoming election. I've been doing this thing where I'm saying, I'm not going to even pay attention to the election until we're like 100 days out. Generally,

for me, around then, that I'm like, I got to join a campaign. But I think, like, I need to confront the fact that we're in an election year. And it's not, 2024 is not just an election year. It is probably the election year, not just here in the United States, but also globally. I did not know this around the world, more voters in history will vote this year with at least 64 countries and the European Union having elections. Combined, this is about 49% of people worldwide are meant to be holding national elections in 2024. So it's a very big deal. The stakes are high. You are not wrong to be feeling a little anxiety or a little angst or a little uncertainty around it, Annie. But given all that, I think it really makes sense to think about whether or not

elections are fair to women who are running for office. Obviously, this is like a global issue, but right here in the United States, things are also very bleak. And it's important because we can't have like an equitable, functional democracy if women are not able to run for office without facing identity-motivated attacks

simply for showing up and daring to be women. Yes, and you've talked about this a lot before, and I think it's so important because if you're considering running for office as a woman or any intersection of marginalized identity, that's just like an extra thing to deal with. And like your family has to deal with, like people who know you has to deal with. And I can't honestly blame people for being like, you know what,

I don't want to deal with that. And that's a huge problem. That is a huge problem. Absolutely. And even for folks who are not running for elected office, it's a problem because more and more we're seeing it just harassing. and identity-based attacks being part of showing up to public or civic life. And so if you want to be a poll worker for your elections in your town, or if you want to

speak up at a town hall meeting in your town, just these everyday not exciting bits of democracy, these everyday ways that folks should be able to show up and make their voices heard and participate in their civic and public life, women and people of color and other marginalized people are facing attacks just for doing that. And, you know, it makes me sad because I've seen very clear research that suggests that women are shying away from public office and shying away from this kind of civic participation because of these attacks. And on the one hand, I get it. Like, women are smart enough to know if I'm not protected and when I do this, if I have to pay lots and lots and lots of money to protect myself in a way that my male counterparts just don't

even have to think about, I don't want to do this. that. And so as much as I want to have the representative democracy that we all deserve, I understand why more and more marginalized people are checking out and being like, yeah, I'm just not going to sign up for this. Like, why would you? I get it. Yeah. And I think one of the reasons for my anxiety, a lot of our anxiety, as you said, you have been on hearing to talk about it being like disinformation in these attacks and misinformation. It feels like it's gotten worse for a lot of reasons. Is that in my head?

I am sorry to say it is not in your head. You know, today in 2024, women in politics and positions of power are the targets of just overwhelming volumes of gender disinformation and online abuse in forms of character assassinations, fake stories, and humiliating or sexually charged images. Something that is new is the proliferation

of AI-enabled disinformation, visual disinformation, cheapfakes, deepfakes, all of that kind of stuff, that I think we really hadn't had to wade through before like we are now. And I also just think, I mean, this is just my opinion. I think that the cultural landscape around these kinds of attacks have changed. I think that we're in a place where people are really willing to believe things that adhere to their worldviews already.

And so if you see a piece of disenfranchis, or an AI-generated deep fake, even if there are all the things that you're like, that's probably not true. If it aligns to your worldview, anecdotally, I believe that I've seen more and more people being unwilling to challenge things that are clearly not true if it aligns to their worldview.

And we're talking about misogyny and sexism. So much of that is wrapped up in how people think about the world. And so if you already are somebody who is prone to think that women are untrustworthy or women are incapable or women are not qualified or not good leaders, when you see something that confirms that, even if it's like obviously AI manipulated or something are not true, I do think here in 2024,

people are going to be willing to be like, oh, yeah, that tracks, you know, because it aligns to this, like, deeply held idea and attitude about women that they already have. Right. You know, one of the things I was thinking about, the last time we kind of had a similar conversation about this, we talked a lot about, like, bots

and we talked a lot about, like, how Russia really did target specific women and marginalized people, even pretending to be like marginalized people themselves in order to attack other people, would be like, yes, I'm definitely voting for so-and-so because I am this type of person who thinks that this candidate will do the best for us, even though it's not true at all, which, you know, we've seen plants essentially everywhere, but then these bots were this thing. Is there something different this time around that we're seeing? Like, as calculated as that was, obviously it's getting worse.

What are we seeing now? Yeah, that's a great question. I would say that I was somebody who really talked a lot about the way that global forces were using and exploiting our online ecosystem to like manufacture political conversation in a way that was inauthentic. And I think that's important to talk about like there was an entire Senate inquiry report that said that Russia specifically was interested in targeting black people, black voters, and get them to either vote for. Trump or to stay home in our last presidential election, right? So like, that's a thing. However, I think in 2024, the conversation really has to be more involved because it's not just foreign adversaries. It is also people right here in the United States, you have the frontrunner for the Republican Party engaging in identity-based disinformation attacks all the time,

right? And so I think the problem has gotten more involved. And I think, I think, the problem has gotten more involved. think there are more parties involved. And I also think it's been more normalized, right? Like, I think, like, the idea that someone would just lie about a candidate and tell a lie that is only works because it is supported by bias or unfair attitudes or lies about somebody's identity, I think that we're in a place where people are not calling that what it is. And so the whole problem that sort of, like, gotten worse. Yes. And I think, like, when you do call it what it is, we've just become so like we don't trust anybody else's

data. We don't trust where they're getting their sources. That's what my experience has been when I get in fights with people. They're always like, where's your source? And I'll tell them and they'll be like, no. Don't even get me. Like, where do I even start? Like, I have had that same experience. It's part and parcel of why I've kind of like given up

on a certain kind of online discourse with strangers because I'm just like, it's not worth my time. If you're somebody who wants to be in the trenches, arguing with somebody on Reddit, more love to you, like, good job, good luck. And it's not my ministry. I don't have the energy. I don't have the time.

Because, and I guess that's the thing about people with these entrenched worldviews, but it's very hard to have conversations with them in some cases because it's like, oh, well, here's a, like, reputable source. And it's like, oh, well, the source is wrong. Here's why you can't trust whatever source. And the problem is, is really that, like, a lot of these institutions and sources really

have given people legit reasons to be suss about them and to question them. And so it just makes it that much more complicated. We're like, you know, well, yes, like, I don't want to go out here and cape for, like, the CDC or whatever. But, like, we have to start somewhere. We have to have, like, a baseline understanding of just the reality that we're all sharing. otherwise everything breaks down. Another podcast from some SNL

late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel

help an acapella band with their between songs banter. There's the worst singer in the group. The worst? Yeah. Me. Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard,

You only got in because your parents made a huge donation. The yard birds, right? That's the name. The Harvard Yardt Yard's, but they're open. Do you have a name suggestion? We're open. Since you guys are middle-aged, one erection. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

Humor me. I need some jokes to make me seem funny. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ads supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHearts twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business.

Think IHeart. streaming, radio, and podcasting. Let us show you at iHeartadvertising.com. That's iHeartadvertising.com. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened.

That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs,

the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports Slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slices Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. you or someone who has been working in the world of disinformation and misinformation for a while. And I think it's interesting because when we talk to you, there's always kind of like almost like a game plan of like how things work or how people do things. And as, yes, as you've been saying, like, some of it relies on what's baked in already of like the sexism baked in already.

Totally. So that is a great way to put it, Annie, because it really is like a game plan. And I really, in the work that I do around missing disinformation, I really encourage folks to like take a step back and see the machinations of how this is working to sort of see the ways that we are being essentially like hoodwinked and grifters are sort of like getting something out of us by following a very specific kind of game plan. And so you can really think about the way that we're seeing misogyny-based attacks work today as a sort of three-pronged attack.

Prong one is online violence. So like threats of abuse, hate speech, harassment, spear campaigns. Then you have pronged two, disinformation by bad actors. So like the kind of artificial activity that Sam was talking about, like bots, coordinated influence operations, fake news, combined with algorithmic preferences toward incendiary content, right? Like a whole body of research tells us that social media platforms, places like Twitter, Reddit, whatever, they really do priority.

content that is inflammatory, right? And so if you are somebody who wants to tell an inflammatory lie that it's identity-based about somebody, that is going to get preferential treatment on algorithms. It's just a fact. And then the last prong is what you were talking about, Annie, just good old-fashioned everyday sexism, right? Just the general suspicion around women, particularly women of color and black women, suspicion around our motivations, our abilities, are like motivations to lead, like, why do we want to lead? How did we get to a leadership position? All of this really allows gender-based attacks to take root in mainstream political discourse.

So I wish that we were talking about something that we only see festering in, you know, random dudes blog.biz. But a lot of this conversation does get amplified to, like, mainstream platforms. It does, and that's something I've been thinking about a lot lately, too, is the, you've talked about before, like, how kind of like outrage gets more money. Like, it's monetized in our social media and other platforms. And I feel when women point that out, the criticisms come again of, like, well, see, she can't handle it or what have you.

But there are numbers to back this up. Oh, totally. And something about that is like men are not being asked to handle identity-based criticisms when they run for public office. They're just not. And so I would argue that like a landscape where women are asked to handle something that their counterparts simply do not have to deal with is not a fair landscape. And you shouldn't have to put up with identity-based lies and smears to run for office. You should be able to handle criticisms about your record, about what you say, about your behavior, about your policy, but we're not talking about that. We're talking about you can't lead because you're a woman. I am suspicious of your motivations because you're a woman. That's a different

thing that men in public office simply do not have to deal with. So let's look at some of the data around this. So discrediting and disabusing women candidates in the 2022 midterm election echoed these patterns that really took shape in 2020 when racist and sexist and ablest abuse was hurled at candidates like Representative Ilhan Omar and Senator Tammy Duckworth, when multiple secretaries of state faced harassment and legit physical threats for ratifying the election results, and white supremacists plotted to kidnap and hold ransom Governor Whitmer. Side note, that is something that, like, I don't think that we ever...

Like, the fact that white supremacists were foiled in a plot to kidnap a public elected official, we did not have nearly enough conversation about that. I believe if that had happened in another country, we would be looking at it like, wow, look who can't do democracy. Oh my God, what is going on over there? It happened here, and I feel like it barely made a blip. I mean, it's kind of like any abuse situation or stalking situation.

Unless they're dead, they don't care. Unless we die, they're not going to listen. It's not an actual threat, which is the most absurd thing. They need to see it end in violence in order to give credit to what happened. That's unfortunately what's happening. And that's sort of my point of this whole conversation, Sam, is that we shouldn't accept that we have to wait until somebody is dead or in the hospital

to have these conversations, right? Like media platforms amplified violence and abuse against Nancy Pelosi and somebody broke into her house and attacked her husband with a hammer and he was hospitalized, right? Like, it shouldn't take something like that to be like, oh, wait, is this a real thing? It's a real thing, and it shouldn't have to get to a point of violence

for us to really take it seriously. And these kinds of attacks are really expanding. There was a recent global study shows that women government officials targeted with violence is one of the largest categories of attacks in the U.S. compared to other regions of the world, which includes public and civil servants, local authorities, and nonpartisan political appointments,

such as judges. So, like, yeah, like, it's a global problem, but the problem is unique in the United States. And especially given that we might have two women running for vice president in 2024, the way that we talk about gender and leadership and the way that we, the kind of conversations that we normalize and tolerate around women and leadership, we are going to have to sort of get that straight, right? Because it's certainly going to be something that comes up. In fact, I would say that we've already seen this when it comes to attacks on Vice President Harris. Yes.

Yes. I, it's so sad because I remember having these thoughts when, like, Hillary Clinton was almost elected and then Vice President Kamala Harris. I was thinking, like, they're going to be assassinated. I thought that, and that's horrific, that I thought it. But I was, like, worried for them. And there's a reason to be, because there are. if you're living in a world where you're getting constant threats of like death and violence and sexual violence,

it's hard not to think like one of these people might actually do something. Yeah, especially in a country where guns are not really that difficult to come by, in a country that normalizes and amplifies these kind of violent rhetoric against women public officials. Like the conditions are perfect for that kind of violence. to easily move from online violence to offline violence, just like we saw in January 6th, right? Like, I'm not like pulling this out of nowhere. We have already seen this.

Yes. And again, there are numbers behind this. There sure are. So shout out to the Institute for Strategic Dialogue. They have a study that found that women of color candidates are targeted by the right at really alarming rates online. A couple of key findings. So abusive messages.

counted for more than 15% of those directed at every female lawmaker analyzed, compared with around 5 to 10% of male candidates. Women of color are particularly likely to be targeted. And this piece, I think, is really important. So male politicians who are ethnic minorities are not more vulnerable than their white counterparts. For instance, Corey Booker and Tim Scott, who are both black men, got similar levels of abuse to white male candidates.

However, the attacks against them were more likely to be around race ISD found. So abuse directed toward women is more likely to be about their gender than abuse targeting men. Abuse targeting men was more generalized and focused on their political stances, while the messages directed at women are more likely to focus on things like their appearance or like general competence. Female Democrats received 10 times more abusive comments than their male counterparts on Facebook, and Republican women received twice as many abusive comments as Republican men. So it's one of those situations where women of color and black women are really shouldering the majority of this burden, but it's not, it's not the same along gender and

race lines, right? Like, it is very different if you are criticizing somebody because of their political stances or their policy versus if you're criticizing somebody because of the way they look or because of like a general suspicion of who they are based on their identity. Like those things are very different. And as this report, from the Institute for Societic Dialogue points out, everybody is not shouldering that burden equally. Yes. And it's

very frustrating for a lot of reasons, but as going back to the whole like, show me your sources thing, it's really hard to combat, right? It's really hard to fight against this.

It really is. Like, this is work that I have done professionally during various times of my career. And, you know, being in the space, we talk a lot about things like debunking, which I do think has its place. However, it's a pretty frustrating endeavor because it's like you're playing whack-a-mole, right? Like, I used to be the person who would have meetings with Facebook or Twitter or Reddit and be like, oh, well, here's a bunch of examples of content that violates your terms of service and seems to be violent threats or attacks on public officials or women running for

office. And they'd be like, okay, we'll take those down. And it's like, you can't do that forever, right? So it is a frustrating thing. And I think, you know, you need more than just debunking to combat this stuff. You know, gender disinformation, I don't feel like it can really be addressed through just fact-checking or debunking. These attacks are often based in character assassination or just unverifiable information. And so when that is magnified by algorithmic preferences of platforms that privilege fake and outrageous content to enhance profit, we have a real problem. Like, it's a tech problem.

It's a policy problem. It's a democracy problem. It's a lot of problems all rolled into one big ball that, like, playing whack a mole on individual pieces of content just ain't going to cut it, right? And so I would say that this really needs to be combated by changing social media platform policies in the long term. and also a cultural understanding of what's going on, right? So not just being like, oh, well, it's just a platform problem,

really understanding the role that, like, the way that we're all thinking about and talking about women who run for office and other marginalized people who run for office really does play a role in pushing back against this. I mean, a part of the conversation is that the reason feminism is important. The reason intersectional feminism is important is to undo the misogyny and the conversations that happen that allowed this to start with, that allow this type of rhetoric to begin with.

Like, in this conversation, it's odd because I always go back to thinking how immediately, like when a man specifically wants to threaten a woman is always some kind of sexual violence. That's the immediate part. It's like they're their go-to, and we know when it comes to war crimes, that's one of the number one things that is used within these wars that are often so, like, awful. We start thinking about it, like the level of sexual violence that happened to show power and control, And all of this has to do with the misogynistic take on power.

And it's kind of one of those questions of like, how do you even begin, especially when it's so deeply rooted that any almost, especially like, I'm going to say this like uneducated, ignorant people, that's their go-to. Like that's the first thing is like you deserve to be raped. Like that's their comment. And you see it so many times that it becomes normalized. Yeah, I mean, how many of us like, I. know that I've experienced this.

I'm sure that you all have. I'm sure that a lot of people listening. How many of us have had some creep say, like, I hope you get raped? You deserve to be raped. Like the fact that that is hurled at us as a threat when we speak up and use our voices, I think that illustrates exactly what you're talking about, Sam. Yeah. So what can we do then to a dream?

this online, perhaps. So the first thing, I would say, is really understanding the kinds of attacks that stick and letting that kind of inform your thinking about how you respond, right? Because not all of these tactics are created equal. So let's look at the ones that are actually effective at impacting voting behavior. Attacks that seem to pack the biggest punch on voter behavior focus on character, things like trust, qualifications, like ability, and control. with a constant backdrop of these like sexualized attacks

that we were just talking about. So you can sort of think of these attacks as manifesting in these candidates are untrustworthy. So women are liars or hypocrites or too ambitious, right? That like the very fact that this woman is running for office means that there is something off about her. Like you can't trust somebody who wants it too much, right? And then meanwhile, it's like, oh, so did like the male candidate

just like accidentally fill out the paperwork to run and just like accidentally found himself on a podium. And those attacks really work because trust is obviously a major factor in vote choice. Another one is that women are unqualified. Women are stupid, weak, incapable, and experienced, right? So historically, women must meet a higher threshold to prove their qualifications.

Another is that women are just unlikable. I just don't like her. I don't like her face. I don't like what she stands for. Difficult to get along with. This is one that, like, you see a lot with women of color. You know, they're angry or, like, never satisfied or, like, oh, what a sour puss. No one likes them.

They have annoying personalities. Like, women leaders are expected to be agreeable. I remember when Elizabeth Warren was running for president, one of the attacks that her campaign really saw a lot is that she was, like, too prepared and would evoke plans for too many things. So if you asked her a question, she'd be like, oh, here's my plan on that. Or like, here's my policy paper on that. And people were like, don't like it. I can't get a beer with her. I mean, it really, I mean, like, if you're, if you are a woman who, like,

dominated and led the group project in class, I don't need to tell you that sometimes when you're really good and really qualified and know what you're doing, that will be seen as attack on you or like used against you to be like, I just don't like her. Even though she's like did all the work on this project that I would have gotten an F without her, I don't like it. And lastly, that they're uncontrollable. They're too angry, too crazy, too hormonal, too evil, all of that, that they're too whatever to be voted into office. And you can really see how these are like things that kind of there's really no way to win because they are sexually promiscuous or they're uneffable, right? So it's like, oh, if you're too sexual or not sexual

enough, both of those are like attacks. So it's like, what are you supposed to do? Like, there's no way to win. Right. A lot of these are very, they're conflicting with each other. It's like you're too ambitious, but you don't know what you're doing. Like, it's like too. Okay. I can't prepare and I guess that's bad too. Okay, cool. Absolutely. And so like, and all of these attacks work and they stick, despite being like contradictory or like seemingly really silly, they work because of this larger system of unchecked misogyny, masagenoir and biased against women that is worse for marginalized women. And so the reason why these are effective at actually, you know, not just existing out there, but actually impacting voting behavior is because of

this larger cultural climate of bias against women and marginalized people. Absolutely. And I know a lot of us have experienced that just in our lives, just seen it. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends, me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman, help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. There's that worst singer in the group.

The worst? Yeah. Me. Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard, you only got in because your parents made a huge donation. The yard birds, right? That's the name. The Harvard Yardt.

They're open. Do you have a name suggestion? We're open. Since you guys are middle aged. One erection. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. me. I need some jokes to make me seem funny.

Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ads supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHearts twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHeart. Streaming, radio, and podcasting.

844-844-I-heart to get started. That's 844-8-4-8-4-I-heart. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context and ask the questions everybody

wants answered. Sports Slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slicleaf 12 and the TikTok Podcast Network on on TikTok. Do you have any tips on how we can counter this or fight back against this? Totally. So the biggest one, I think, is just to share positive, accurate content about women's participation in civic and political life.

You know, I would say the most effective form of inoculation against this is not, like, debunking each specific individual attack. It is demonstrating that women belong in political life, that women are good leaders. So really demonstrating women as trust. qualified and competent, that's the kind of content that we need to really correct the narrative and protect women leaders and emphasize the need for women and marginalized people's place in political involvement. So take all of that to mean that probably the worst thing that you can do if you're trying to combat this kind of thing is to directly respond or engage with individual

attacks because that could amplify them or legitimize them. This is something that I think is really tough and I have to check myself on because when I'm scrolling social media and I see like a lie about a woman, my first instinct is to reply and be like, that's not true, blah, blah, blah. But because of the way that algorithms work, you actually might be amplifying that because the algorithm is like, oh, you're engaging with this. It must be good content. Let me show it to more people. So that is not what you want to do. Instead, push out positive, proactive counter messaging that supports women leaders as qualified and also acknowledge the kinds of identity-based harms that they are facing. So if there's a particular woman, Kansai,

that you're like, like, yay, I like this person, emphasize that woman's credentials, her expertise, her background, and her shared values. According to research from Gretchen Barton of the Worthy Strategy Group, there are six intangible qualities

that Americans look for in their leaders. They want somebody who's a challenger, a nurturer, an innovator, strong, stable, and visible, and meets the moment, right? And so there is a huge disparity in women being an underrepresented in each of these categories

that Americans cite when they're asked to envision and what they want out of a leader. And so we should really be working to flip the script a little bit and show all the different ways that these dynamic women leaders that dot our political landscape fit those things that Americans say that they want out of their leaders. Right.

So highlighting the ways that women are innovators, highlighting the ways that women are strong and stable and visible, highlighting the ways that women really are the ones who are rising up to meet the moment and challenging the status quo, right? all of these things that we know make women great leaders, a good way to challenge the lies that women are facing in our current media climate is to highlight the truth about the fact that women do make really good leaders

and that we want a pluralistic society where women are well represented. Yes, and it's really unfortunate because there are examples of this, plenty of examples of women being good leaders, but it always feels like either they're ignored, or like if I'm thinking of cases from outside the United States, like that's not the United States though. Like she's a good leader for Europe. Yes.

Okay. I say in New Zealand, honey. Right. Okay. Cool. I don't like that. One thing, I have to say, I have had some experiences where I've tried with liberal white men to do this and let me tell you how angry.

they got. I was shocked. So if that's like a, to me, that was a wake-up call of how embedded this is, that I thought they would at least hear me out. And they did not. Yeah, I mean, I hate to say it. I have had the same experience. And I think there are a lot of men in my life that think of themselves as like progressive or radical or lefty or like promoters of democracy. But then even they don't see the ways that massagony and sexism threaten our democracy, even as those things are so clear to me. And so I've really experienced what you're highlighting that, like, even from men who are, like, ostensibly with it, it's just, I think it's just, I don't think that men see it that way all the time. I just think that they're like, oh, well, sexism ended back in whatever. And, like,

it's just not a topic that I think impacts our lives anymore. When it so impacts our lives And I guess that's one of the reasons why it's so insidious and why it takes such intentionality to combat it because these things are so ingrained that people might not even realize the ways that they are contributing to it. Yep. I had a guy tell me there was no sexism in the 2016 election.

And I was like, you do know what I do for a living, right? It's like, I just don't see it. Okay, cool. I'm going to leave because I'm going to get real bad. But just I don't agree. And a part of that is this idea we shouldn't talk about it, or we should ignore it, which is not really helpful always. No, I mean, I'm guilty of this too.

There used to be this attitude that, you know, the only way to counter these unfair attacks was to ignore them, right? Like, when they go low, we go high, like, don't, don't mention it. like it'll go away. I hate to say that that is really a page from an old, outdated playbook. Research really suggests now that ignoring these attacks just doesn't make them go away. It just allows them to fester, get amplified, and become legitimized, and become part of our political discourse. And it could also kind of backfire for women who are running for office because candidates want to see, like, strength and backbone and a candidate meeting the moment.

And so if you're like, I'm not going to respond to that, that can sort of be a candidate. of backfire because it's like, oh, well, why isn't she meeting the moment? So that doesn't mean that, like, a woman candidate needs to get mired down in the bog of, like, defending herself against unfair lies and attacks. But it's really about emphasizing your accomplishments and qualifications in a way that corrects harmful narratives without repeating those narratives and without legitimizing those narratives. It's like a little bit of a tightrope walk to do it correctly. And again, like, I just want to emphasize that it's something that we should not have to do. Like, certainly male candidates are not having to prepare counter messaging in this way to be

like, well, I got to respond to this attack, but in a way that emphasizes my values and doesn't legitimize it. And also, like, it's a mind field that not everybody is asked to wade through. So I just want to acknowledge that, that we should not have to deal with this. However, I have seen a lot of candidates who use these kinds of unfair identity-based attacks. as an opportunity to really create community and contrast with the people who are hurling these attacks at them. Like, a good example is the former Canadian Minister of Climate and Environment, Catherine McKenna exemplified this advice when she pushed back against this hashtag that she was facing that labeled her climate Barbie, which resulted in death threats.

And to respond, she tweeted, do you use that sexist garbage about your daughter, mother, and sister? we need more women in politics, your sexist comments won't stop us. And so that's a really interesting way how she responds to an unfair sexist attack that attacks her gender and makes it about all the other women and girls who are watching this kind of garbage and being like, don't we want a climate that supports these women and girls to be in politics? These kinds of comments go against that.

And they're not going to stop us, right? So like, I have seen candidates that really challenge this in some unique. weeks. Yeah, and going back to your point of like, we shouldn't have to be doing this at all. And this is a topic I think about a lot in terms of so many, so many things. But it's not just women who are being targeted that should have to speak up or say something. I'm so glad that you brought that up because, I mean, how many of us have been in a situation where somebody says something or does something and you're like, I don't want to be the one that has to be like, well, that's actually offensive or like, that's actually not a cool thing to say in the workplace.

And it really shouldn't just be on the person who is targeted to respond to this, because challenging a sexist climate really does take all of us to speak up. So a good example of this is Bonnie Willis, which I think you all might know. Do you all, I feel like in Atlanta, she might be somebody who's on y'all's radar. as well as just kick in the primary. So we're very excited. So Willis is the Fulton County District Attorney prosecuting the Georgia Trump election case constantly under attack, right?

Really showing how black women are attacked and undermined and how that is a strategy to undermine democratic process. So that was a really good example. On February 15th, Willis took the witness stand. And right-wing actors, including Fox News, surprise, surprise, they circulated this. meme that suggested that she had worn her dress backward. So this is a caption that Fox News put out. Bonnie set to take the hot seat again after day one packed with yelling, a wink, and surprise

backward dress. So basically they were saying, oh, this black woman is so stupid and incompetent that can you believe she wore her dress backward? What an idiot. Who would ever believe in her leadership, right? Like that was the substance of the attack. However, a guy on TikTok delegitimized that. attack that had broken into mainstream media by pointing out in a TikTok that, like,

actually, here's the dress and she was wearing it correctly, right? So this was, like, nonsense that a fairly mainstream news outlet amplified, just completely wrong. He found the dress. It's like she's wearing it perfectly correctly. While he did that, other institutions put out positive counter content, avoiding the direct attacks while emphasizing Willis's leadership and qualifications in order to target them. So it was this, like, two-pronged thing where the.

TikTok Messenger was able to be like, look how ridiculous this attack is, y'all, while other institutions pushed out positive messaging about Willis's leadership. And so really, it should not be on just her, this person targeted, to respond that these garbage lies about her character and her values and her leadership, it really takes a village to create the culture where sexism and misogyny is not able to thrive and take root in this way. Yes. And I would like to say, Atlanta backed her, like I said. she killed it in the primaries we all celebrated. She did an amazing. We love her.

At this point, like, of course, you know, when it comes to judicial systems in the South, it can get ugly. But when you have a case like this and you realize you have someone who is firm and we love it. Like, it's representing what we want to see in Atlanta, which is we're not taking from you. So move on. Yeah. And it's also.

So many of these attacks that we're seeing right now are also distractions from like real things we should be talking about. And it's, I mean, like, she's wearing her dress backwards. It does have these, as you said, what they're trying to signal is she is incompetent. But it's also just so like, okay. But it's really important that we talk about this because we are an election year, extremely important election year. and all of this stuff is very dangerous.

Yeah, and I think, like, if you're listening and you're like, well, I don't like Willis, I don't like Harris, I don't like Pelosi, that is your right. However, you should be more than anybody wanting to have a climate where we are able to talk about these leaders and their qualifications and their records in a way that is fair and honest, right? Like when the climate is cluttered up with all kinds of garbage, sexist lies and attacks, you can't actually have an honest conversation about why these leaders are failing us or why these leaders are not failing us. It just creates a dynamic where, like, we're not having a conversation about the actual thing. We're talking about backward dresses or whether or not somebody's face looks weird, right? Like, we're just not having a substantive conversation.

And it does not just threaten the women who are targeted. It threatens all of us. Undermining women leaders as part of a larger anti-democracy agenda, right? It is not just about these individual women. It is about threatening our democracy. And as you were saying earlier, Annie, like, it is unfortunate that it is very effective because people might not always be able to see the ways that sexism and misogyny and misogyny and misogynairn really threaten the fabric of our democracy.

It is this insidious thing that can operate in plain sight, even amongst people who think of themselves as people who want to protect democracy. And so we really need to get a handle on it. We need to talk about it honestly. And we need to listen to the people who are targeted and come forward to talk about what they have dealt with just for trying to serve their country or be part of public or civic life. Absolutely.

Absolutely. And I think I'm sure we'll be talking about the election for several episodes. But it's also, I would say, sadly, I've seen it in plenty of my women, friends, who are like, well, I don't want to vote for her. because they're... Honestly, it sounds like I'm scared to vote for her because what if she's bad? Or, like, I'm hearing all this stuff about her

and she must be bad. So it's a really, really toxic environment for, like, actual conversations and democracy. So... Yeah. I mean, I remember, like, I have felt that. Like, I have been, like, oh, I'm worried about having XYZ marginalized person in public office

because we have this insidious culture that it's like, well, we tried one out and it didn't work, so we can never have another one. And that's just such a, like, limiting mindset. And it's a mindset that you can creep in before you know it. And we should really be doing the intentional, sometimes internal work of, like, unlearning the way that these things have really been internalized,

sometimes by women and other marginalized people. Yes. Well, as always, Bridget, thank you so much for doing this work for coming on to share it with us. We always love having you. Can you tell the good listeners where to find you? You can find me on my podcast at There Are No Girls on the Internet, and you can find me on Instagram at Bridget Marie in D.C. Yes, and go do that, listeners.

It's so important, so important. And thanks as always yes, to Bridget and to you for listening. If you would like to contact us, you can, or even. email Stephanie and Mom Stuff at iHeartMedia.com. You can find us on Twitter at MomStuff Podcast and on TikTok and Instagram at Stuff Unever Told You. We're on YouTube. We have a T-Belisk store and we have a book. You can get wherever you get your books.

Thanks as always to our super producer, Christina, our executive producer Maya and her contributor, Joey. Thank you. And thanks to you for listening. Stuff on Never Told You's projection of IHeart Radio. For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, you can check out the A Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite, on Humor Me with Robert Smygel and Friends,

me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, S&L's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to Humor Me with Robert Smigel and Friends

on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Life is full of hurdles. So how do you keep going? On Hurtle with Emily Abadi, we're talking with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness from professional athletes, coaches, and Olympic champions about the challenges that shape them and the mindset that keeps them moving forward. At our level, at this scale, being able to fail in front of the entire world. Like, I can do anything. I can do anything.

Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where SportsSlice comes in. I'm Timbo, and every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the biggest moments in sports and giving you the real story behind the headline. And we're going straight to the source, the athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions in the moment, and the stuff nobody gets to hear. Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

And for more, follow Timbo Slica Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. This is an IHeart podcast, guaranteed human.