There Are No Girls on the Internet - BAFTAs racial slur; Nicki Minaj bot network; TikTok “Psychic” faces Defamation trial for University of Idaho murders – NEWS ROUNDUP!

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Starting point is 00:01:20 Your husband is not who you think he is. Your body is not what you thought it was. Your identity is formed by a secret history. I'm Danny Shapiro. And these are just a few of the stunning stories I'll be exploring on the 14th season of Family Secrets. He kind of shoved me out of the way and said, move. And he went out the front door and he jumped in a car and drove off. And that was the last time I saw him.

Starting point is 00:01:42 Listen to Season 14 of Family Secrets on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There Are No Girls on the Internet as a production of IHeart Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. I have been so deep into this story out of the BAFTAs. Mike, have you been following those? I admit that I was not until you brought it to my attention. And then it's been like a pretty steady stream of updates from you. And the BAFTAs are not something that I've ever paid attention to in the past.

Starting point is 00:02:28 But this story, like, it has gotten to me. And so, yeah, I am now following this pretty closely. I feel you're underselling how much I have been updating you on a story that you were like, I didn't see it. I'm not really familiar with what you're talking about. I just came back from on-air festival in New York, which is a podcast conference. And as you and I were tech had been texting previously before my flight about the show and the plan for the show while I was traveling, my flight was very early in the morning. I'm in the plane on the tarmac at like 5.30 in the morning. And right before we take off, I text to you,

Starting point is 00:03:09 BAFTA's update. The president of the BAFTAs is Prince William. Like, how deep does this thing go? At a certain point, I just had to, like, get on board, right? Like, the updates were going to keep coming. So, yes, I just, like, got on board. And it's, like, quite a story. So for folks who missed it somehow,

Starting point is 00:03:30 John Davidson is a Scottish Tourette's Syndrome activist and the real-life inspiration for this movie, I Swear. I Swear is this movie that is a fictionalized version of his real-life experiences as somebody with Tourette. He was there at the Baftas, which you can sort of think of as like the British Oscars to celebrate this film. Davidson has a particular type of Tourette's called Coprolalia, which involves the involuntary use of obscene or offensive language. A lot of depictions of Tourette's in media focuses on this. specific kind, even though this symptom only affects 10% to 30% of people with the condition,

Starting point is 00:04:10 and it's not a criterion for diagnosis. Now, importantly, these ticks are involuntary. People with this condition are not in control of them. So while the cast of sinners, Delroy Lindo and Michael B. Johnson, were on stage at the Baptist's presenting an award, Davidson had one of these uncontrollable ticks and screamed out the N-word twice. Delaware Lindo and Michael B. Johnson are black. They were there celebrating the film sinners,

Starting point is 00:04:40 which is historic in the way that it has been nominated for awards and really is just a phenomenal piece of black art. So there is video of this happening that was circulating on social media. It's horrible. There's no other way to put it. You can see Michael B. Jordan and Lindo's faces drop, and they're clearly, it's just a, A tough moment. Sinner's production designer Hannah Beechler, a black woman, said the same thing happened to her backstage, but it was not televised.

Starting point is 00:05:12 Side note, Google even had to apologize after a news alert about what happened actually used the N-word, spelled it out in the news alert. Google sent out a push notification linking to a Hollywood reporter article about the situation, which had the headline, how the Tourette's fallout and unfolded at the BAFTA Film Awards. the alert that invited people to see more on N-word, but it spelled out the actual word. So yeah, no, bueno, not great, not great. That is pretty wild that that happened. Like, I don't, it's, this is just like a side digression from like the main story, but it's like amazing that Google would do that, you know?

Starting point is 00:05:53 Like, it's Google. You would think they would have a list of words that they weren't going to print. It's like an interesting story in itself, but it's a side story. So back to the main story. Yes. The Google thing reminds me of a much lighter and brighter day on social media, which was the day that Yahoo tweeted about the N-word Navy. They were trying to say bigger Navy, but they slipped an N in there.

Starting point is 00:06:19 And if you were on Twitter, that was like an OG black Twitter day. That was probably my, I don't think, I happened while I was at work. I don't think a single lick of work got done that day. I mean, you're also burying the lead of like the headline was Obama wants a... The headline they were trying to say was Obama wants a bigger Navy. And instead of a B, they used an N. And the whole black internet just was cutting up that day. And it was hilarious.

Starting point is 00:06:50 About the Baptist situation, I went through a real evolution on this. as I feel like I kind of took you along on my evolution in the passenger seat. I did not love a lot of the reaction to what happened online. I had to do my own looking into this. And something that I learned that I did not know is that Coprolalia is not just the involuntary shouting of random swears. The brain actually gives you a sense of what the absolute worst thing to contextually say in any given moment would be to say. and then that's what the tick can be. And so it's not just random swears.

Starting point is 00:07:30 It's the absolute worst thing that you could say at any given situation. That could be the tick. That was new information to me. And it is hard, not to mention just incorrect, to see people say, oh, well, this person meant what they said. I have seen some of that reaction. To be clear, it is not as if having this condition

Starting point is 00:07:51 means that a person can't also be racist or an asshole on top of it. But someone's ticks are not representative of how they actually feel, and that's just the bottom line. That's all there is to it. So I really feel for Davidson that people are essentially saying

Starting point is 00:08:07 that he must be a racist because of this tick. So that's one piece of it that I think is important to sort of ground the conversation in. The other piece of it is that I think some of the big reactions that this sparked is really just a function

Starting point is 00:08:24 of the baseline difficulty of being a black person, let alone a black creative, when you have to endure so much disrespect in a field where you're already marginalized and treated as less than. You know, Delroy Lindo, who is in sinners, I saw a video from a different red carpet earlier this month where he was being interviewed on a red carpet

Starting point is 00:08:49 and the person interviewing him essentially said, how does it feel to be older and be, having this newfound success in Hollywood with sinners. And anybody who knows anything about black film will tell you that Delroy Lindo has had a decades-long career. He is one of our elders. I first saw Delroy Lindo as the father in the Spikely movie Crooklyn, which it's a Spikely film that does not get the celebration that it should because it's beautiful. It's like one of my favorite movies, probably my favorite Spikely film, which is saying a lot. he was in that movie in like 1994, right?

Starting point is 00:09:27 So saying, oh, you're new in Hollywood just shows you don't know who I am because you don't, you're doing a Red Harvard interview and you've not bothered to learn the history of the black talent that you're going to be interviewing, which is disrespectful. So I think that it's just a sensitive issue on top of it being a super sensitive and delicate time. there are just so many pain points for our community right now. I think that is why we are seeing such a reaction. And so I really don't like a lot of the reaction that I've seen that basically suggest that black folks are sort of overreacting to the impact of what happened

Starting point is 00:10:10 because I simply cannot express to you how mortifying this must have been for the sinners team. And I just don't accept the reaction that says, oh, black people have to be okay. with hearing slurs at a ceremony. Because ultimately, that's not fair to the black talent that's there. And it's not fair to Davidson either. Because I don't believe that that's not inclusion to me. I think it is great that Davidson was included in this event. But you know that saying, you know, diversity is being invited to a dance.

Starting point is 00:10:45 Inclusion is being asked to dance at that dance. I feel like the BAFTAs invited him to a dance and then did not dance with him. And real inclusion does not pit different marginalized groups as needs against each other. And the thing is, ultimately, it does not have to be this way. And who made it that way? It was not Davidson because Davidson has a condition where he is not in control of the ticks. It's obviously not that's sinners cast. It's the BAFTAs.

Starting point is 00:11:17 and it's the BBC, the company that aired the Baptist. That is who we should be angry at. That is who let everybody in that room down because this was an institutional failure of the highest level. And I think people should be fired. I cannot believe that we are not seeing, you know, groveling fucking apologies on television for this monumental failure.

Starting point is 00:11:43 To the point where, I mean, it might sound like a conspiracy theory. and I have no inside information. I've just done a lot of reading about what happened here. And I might be wrong, and if I'm wrong, I will eat my words. I think the Baptist set Davidson up. I think this was, you were actually the one that kind of called this. I don't know if I would say I was giving them the benefit of the doubt.

Starting point is 00:12:08 I thought maybe Dave, the BAFTAs were trying super hard to include Davidson and were making the mistake of saying the way that we include Davidson is just to invite him and have no other support mechanisms in place for whatever that might result in. You were like, I wonder if this was intentional to get eyeballs and attention. And I thought that couldn't possibly be.

Starting point is 00:12:38 You have made a truth throughout me. I believe that this was intentional. I mean, I didn't know, again, I didn't know anything about the best. the people who are producing this, but just like the facts that are reported in newspapers paint a pretty damning portrait. Let's talk about it. So here's what we know.

Starting point is 00:12:59 We know that the Baptists warned the audience that they might hear outbursts per variety. Prior to the start of the ceremony, floor managers warned guests and attendees sitting around Davidson of his condition without specifying what kinds of outbursts they may hear. According to multiple sources, none of the nominees or attendees were contacted by BFTA or the BBC ahead of the show with any such warning. So they get you in the audience. They say, hey, just FYI, you might hear some outbursts. It's interesting to me that, you know, so much prior planning goes into these award ceremonies. It's interesting that the first time these attendees are hearing about it is in the audience with Davidson there.

Starting point is 00:13:45 Yeah, I think that's worth like highlighting. It's just the amount of planning that goes into a production like this. Like, this is a ballroom full of A-list celebrities being recorded for an international primetime broadcast. Like, this isn't neighborhood theater. This is not your daughter's junior high performance of Greece. Okay? This is the fastest. This is big time.

Starting point is 00:14:13 This is big time. Yeah. So that way there suggests that, of course, there are going to be a lot of people planning, thinking about all aspects of the production, right? Like there's probably dozens, maybe over 100 people whose job was coordinating the production of this thing. Yes. So it gets so much worse. In a profile for variety immediately following this incident, David, Davidson reveals that the BAFTAs and the BBC essentially gave him the impression that any

Starting point is 00:14:50 ticks would not be heard by the people on stage. He was set 40 rows back from the stage, and initially he did not even realize that people on stage could hear him. He says that he was also given the impression that any of his ticks would be cut out from the broadcast because it's on a tape delay. He said that he has worked with BBC a lot in the past. They're super familiar with what his ticks can sound like in that variety profile he says Studio Canal, the production company that made the film he was there to celebrate,

Starting point is 00:15:22 had worked closely with BFTA and BFTA had made us all aware that any swearing would be edited out of the broadcast. I have made four documentaries with the BBC in the past and feel that they should have been aware of what to expect from threats and worked harder to prevent anything that I said, which after all

Starting point is 00:15:38 was some 40 rows back from the stage from being included in the broadcast. Now, we know that wasn't done. Everything up to this point, you could be like, well, okay, you know, mistakes were made. Here's where I lost it.

Starting point is 00:15:54 He says, 40 rows back from the stage, the Baptist put a microphone in front of him. The profile reads, as I reflect on the auditorium, I remember there was a microphone just in front of me, and with hindsight,

Starting point is 00:16:09 I have to question whether this was wise, so close to where I was seated, knowing I would tick. It's so British, like, I have to question if that was wise. Yeah. I, yes. I don't think it was wise. Question answered.

Starting point is 00:16:28 What the fuck? No, I agree. It seems pretty unwise, really. That was the point that made me think this. I do believe this was intentional. I, you know, I asked around and someone was like, the only thing I can maybe see is maybe if they wanted to, to get audio of his area specifically to tone match it later and in some sort of, like,

Starting point is 00:16:53 there's a, there's a, I don't, I don't believe, I don't buy it. I don't, I don't buy it. I don't, I don't buy it. I don't believe it. Yeah, like, what would be the purpose, you know, like maybe they want to capture audio of him for some other purpose? The idea here, which I don't believe, is that it might have been a room tone. So when, when we make the podcast, we will sit in silence to get what's, called room tone, which is the general sound of the room so that when you're editing later, it sounds more natural because you're able to swap in what it actually sounded like. I think that's what they were getting at. Maybe they were

Starting point is 00:17:28 doing it to sort of, for a later edit, but they didn't edit shit, so then why do they even need room tone? Yeah, and if, and like, if the idea is that they have multiple microphones throughout the theater picked to, like, get room toned, why were those mixed into the main broadcast. Hello. It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense. Let's take a quick break.

Starting point is 00:18:01 Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guide, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman, help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an Acapella band with their between songs banter. There's that more singer in the group. Worst?

Starting point is 00:18:24 Yeah. Me. Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard, you only got in because your parents made a huge donation. The group. The yard herds, right? That's the name. The Harvard yard, but they're open.

Starting point is 00:18:39 Do you have a name suggestion? We're open. Since you guys are middle-aged. One erection. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your. podcast. Human me.

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Starting point is 00:19:23 radio and podcasting. Let us show you at iHeartadvertising.com. That's iHeartadvertising.com. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast's point game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game.

Starting point is 00:19:44 His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows. Without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the table. challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reed. He has to guard Julius Randall.

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Starting point is 00:20:29 So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everyone, it's Ryder Strong, and Will Ferdell from PodMeets World. And now the PodMeets Twirled podcast. We're two men who were completely clueless to reality TV, who now have covered Dancing with the Stars, Traders, and we're gearing up for the season finale of Survivor. So, yeah, now we're experts. I know we annoyed a lot of our listeners by our severe lack of survivor knowledge. That is the point of the show.

Starting point is 00:21:03 I'm just going to remind you. I have watched some Survivor. I obviously haven't watched enough. Did people not like it? Like what was just because we? Yeah. We'll be recapping the big conclusion of the 50th season from the final attempts at gameplay to the desperate pleas of finalists to a bunch of who.

Starting point is 00:21:20 Ha, ha, ha, who. Again, we are experts. So make sure to tune at a pod meets Twitter. world for all our Survivor 50 takes. Listen to PodMeets Tworl on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. So the broadcast did cut some of his ticks from the broadcast. He apparently shouted pedophile at the Baptist host, Alan Cumming, and that tick was not

Starting point is 00:21:56 included in the broadcast. The broadcast also just made clear editorial decisions about things that were cut and things that were left in. A Canola Davies Jr. said, Free Palestine, during his speech after winning outstanding British debut for my father's shadow. So this is what was cut out of Davies' speech. To the economic migrant, to the conflict migrant, to those under occupation, dictatorship, persecution, and those experiencing genocide. You matter. Your stories matter more than ever. Your dreams are an active resistance to those watching at home. Archive your loved ones. Archive your stories yesterday, today, and forever.

Starting point is 00:22:29 For Nigeria, for London, the Congo, Sudan, Free Palestine. had to cut that out of there. Who would want that message in their broadcast of an award show? So that was not acceptable to be heard. But the N-word being shouted, that's fine. Make it make sense. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:22:48 I mean, the only way it makes sense is somebody made the like active, deliberate decision that they were going to keep it in. I would love to see evidence that something else happened, but that's the only thing makes sense to me. Paul Thomas Anderson won best director for one battle after another. And part of his speech says anyone that says movies aren't any good anymore can just piss right off. They bleeped

Starting point is 00:23:15 piss out for social media in the clip that was shared on both the BBC and BFTA YouTube pages. They removed that sentence entirely. So you can't piss off. That is too strong of language to be included. The N word totally fine. Make it make sense. Again, I know a lot of folks online were really focused on Davidson, and I read a lot of interesting takes from black folks with Tourette's. However, Davidson had nothing to do with the editorial choices of the BFTAs. Like, I am keeping my foot on the neck of the Baptists and the BBC, and I just have to wonder what the hell happened here. And even more damning, the Guardian reported that Warner Brothers, the studio behind Sinners,

Starting point is 00:23:56 said immediately after the slur was said that they requested the Baptist edited out from the broadcast, which was on a two-hour delay. So given that, I do believe that this was left in deliberately. Afterward, the Baptist put out a statement, apologizing for the error, saying that their production team didn't hear the slur because they were, quote, working from a truck. Okay. Make sure. I just don't believe this. And I mean, I, I don't know.

Starting point is 00:24:26 I know I sound like a conspiracy theorist. I read takes that, oh, I did read a take. that initially I thought, oh, that's not true, where it was like, oh, maybe they were doing this to take the heat off of the news that Prince Andrew was arrested in connection with the Epstein files. And I was like, well, that's really silly. Then I did find out that the president of the Baptist is Prince William. So I was like, oh, interesting. I mean, I'm just saying. Just asking questions.

Starting point is 00:24:55 Like, so to me, that feels like a step into conspiracy territory, right? because we don't have any evidence of that. But, like, the idea that this was a deliberate decision to leave it in, that I think is supported by a fair amount of evidence here. And, I mean, we can only wonder why maybe it was a conspiracy to, like, create some news to distract from Prince Andrews's Epstein connections. That seems a little complicated to me. I want to be clear, I'm not endorsing that as a conspiracy,

Starting point is 00:25:29 as what I think is going on. I just wanted to note that that is one of the things people are saying. Yeah. I mean, I think a much simpler explanation is just they just wanted some controversy, you know, something that's going to generate buzz, generate engagement,

Starting point is 00:25:44 and whoever made that decision didn't care about who they had to throw under the bus to get it, which in this case involves everyone involved, right? It involved the sinners team and involved Davidson himself. and you know you make it a good point that people were some of the discourse online was focused on Davidson, the guy who said the slur. First of all, yeah, he has threats. It was an involuntary thing.

Starting point is 00:26:14 But even if that weren't true, even if he was like a racist person who wanted to say this slur, that's just like one guy. the fact that the BAFTAs and the BBC, these massive institutions who have so much public trust, decided to air it, is such a bigger story, in my opinion. Decided to air it but thought the words piss off. That language is too strong. Our audience cannot handle the words piss off.

Starting point is 00:26:46 The N-word is totally fine, though. That's all good. This may sound like a small thing, but in that variety profile, he describes sort of the moment of shame and horror and mortification of realizing that his tics were being heard by the folks on stage. He says, I was trying to calm myself down to breathe, but ultimately I made the decision to leave to not cause any more upset. Bafta found a private room with a monitor where I watched the rest of the awards. And to me, that small thing reveals a lot because, as we said, this is a huge production.

Starting point is 00:27:21 why was there no support plan in place ahead of time? The fact that they knew that there was a possibility that he would experience ticks and that the whole movie that he says the BBC's and the BFAs are so aware of his story they have worked together before is that when this happens, he experiences shame and mortification.

Starting point is 00:27:41 The fact that they did not have a plan in place for what would happen if he experienced deep shame and deep mortification while at this ceremony says a lot to me. Why did they do that? have to, why do they have to find a room? Why was there no plan in place, a contingency plan that's like, okay, if you experience a tick and it's, you are feeling the things that we are aware, you know, we know goes into it when you experience these ticks, here's what we're going to do,

Starting point is 00:28:06 here's where you're going to go, here's how we're going to support you. I just think it's a bullshit. I really think like the BAFTAs have really done such a disservice to everybody in that room. And yeah, I, I, this is not how you support anybody. This is not how you support people that you've invited to be in community with you at an award ceremony. 100%. If you organize a party, throw a party, invite guests to come to your party, you have the responsibility for making sure that it is a safe experience for everybody there. And they really failed everybody involved. And this guy was their VIP guest. Yeah. Like, Imagine, I mean, it just has to make you wonder about what sort of care they would take for other people who were not VIP guests.

Starting point is 00:28:57 Yeah. You know, I've never been to England. I was watching this interesting take from a comedian who's from their London Hughes. And she made the point that, listen, there are just not enough black people in England for there to be. the same kind of outcry that you've seen in the United States. There is a generation of black people my age for whom Delroy Lindo is like a stand-in for our father, right, or like, like, reminds us of our father. I would have a hard time picking another black, another pair of black actors right now

Starting point is 00:29:43 that the black community has more fondness for than Delo Lindo and Michael D. Jordan. I really, I'm maybe Denzel Washington, maybe Samuel L. Jackson, but like, Delaware Lindo is ours. We are not going to forget this, right? And so London was saying how in England, they just have a different vibe around these public moments of racism where they don't really complain the same way. They're not as vocal the same way. There's like a cultural attitude about sort of stiff upper lip that we do, our loud asses in the United States do not share. And yeah, she was like, I hope that Black Americans stay on the Baftas net about this and the BBC's neck about this. And I can tell you one thing this black American is going to stay on the Baftas

Starting point is 00:30:32 and the BBC's neck about this because I need answers. I need to know who is being fired. I need to know whether or not the president of the Baptist Prince William will be stepping down. I need to know who made this decision, how it happened, what accountability looks like, how are they atoning, where are they giving money? Like I need the action plan. And I'll tell you something else, black folks are not going to let this shit go. Is black history months? We have a fascist in the White House who was like calling black people, all kinds of apes and monkeys. We're not standing for this.

Starting point is 00:31:00 And I think I don't see us getting over this anytime soon. I know I won't be. And truly, I just think that not only do black people. people deserve better. Michael B. Jordan deserves better. Delaware Lindo deserves better. Hannah Beach Store deserves better. The entire center's team deserves better. Every black person in that audience watching at home deserves better. And Davidson deserves better. The Terrance community deserves better. Like, it's such an institutional failure that if they think we are stupid enough to look at Davidson, who is not in control of these ticks, and expect accountability

Starting point is 00:31:39 from him and not them, if they think that we're going to fall for just like throwing him under the bus when he cannot control these ticks, they're wrong. And I'm really happy to see the sort of conversation shift to the institutional failure that the BFTAs and the BBC are responsible for in this. Well, speaking of institutional failures, what's new with meta? That was going to be my transition. You'll do it better.

Starting point is 00:32:07 Okay, so I love when companies like meta, kind of give away their game, which you know that about me. Meta said that they have a plan to integrate facial recognition technology into their smart classes. According to reporting from the New York Times, meta could add facial recognition technology to smart glasses as early as this year, as is the case with a lot of this kind of stuff, even though it's like horribly invasive, dangerous surveillance technology, they have to give it a cutesy name.

Starting point is 00:32:36 And so their cutesy internal name is name tag. Oh, it's like you're being friendly at a mixer where you don't know anybody. Name tag. Yuck. Yeah, it's like how ring camera, their horrible facial recognition technology, it's called Search Party and it's only for dogs and maybe some people and then also all people. Also all people on top of it. So according to The New York Times, it would let anybody who owns Meta Smart Classes identify people in the real world,

Starting point is 00:33:07 instantly pulling up their information through Meta's AI assistant. What's even more troubling to me is that these documents show that apparently the company had these plans to sort of soften the public rollout by framing it as a accessibility tool for the disabled community. The idea, which didn't really materialize it sounds like, seemed to involve debuting it at a conference for blind users before releasing it more broadly, essentially using the disabled community as a kind of PR shield. Like, oh, nobody can say this is facial recognition technology.

Starting point is 00:33:43 It's to help visually impaired users. We unveiled it at a conference for people with visual impairment. Now, they didn't actually do this, but yeah, Gould. Yeah, God, I love these stories about meta where it's like, okay, we're rolling out this terrible, awful new feature that's going to, like, ruin everyone's lives. How could we also sneak in some other harm to like just screw over some other unrelated community in the process? And how can we spell all of this out in shocking detail in a written document that will at one point be part of a New York Times ex-Mose? They love putting this shit in writing.

Starting point is 00:34:28 I love it. Never stop. Love it. Please continue to write this shit in document so that I can read it later and be like, oh, my Lord, that is incriminatory. Yeah, I think it was unwise. I think that's going to be, let's face that in as a saying on the show. I think it might have been unwise. Like, have these people ever heard of a fucking phone call?

Starting point is 00:34:55 Like, has it ever occurred to anybody to be like, should he put the evil plan in writing or should we just talk about it face to face? So those same internal documents also show that they had this plan. They knew that this was going to be unpopular. they had this plan to roll it out during moments of political turmoil. One of the moments that they floated was when Trump started sending federal immigration troops to cities. They were like, oh, that could have been a good time to roll this out because the public will be too burnt out and distracted to notice or care. When you are trying to roll out of technology, you know it's going to be good when you need to phase it in during a time where people are distracted and won't notice.

Starting point is 00:35:35 So we have already talked about how this technology is already being used to target women. Now the Independent is reporting that domestic abuse organizations like women's aid and refuge are specifically warning that this plan to add facial recognition technology is going to put women at risk. They say that this technology poses a direct and serious risk to survivors by placing them in harm's way and enabling abusers to locate and track them, which to be fair, I think, is just, common sense. I'm glad these organizations are saying, hey, you know who's not going to be real chill in this technology scenario? Survivors who have been abused and women who are definitely going to be harmed. I'm glad they're stepping up to say this, but it's like, kind of obvious to me

Starting point is 00:36:26 that that would be the case. Yeah, that's an obvious one. And also there's like so many reasons why it would be bad to just have everybody walking around with facial recognition cameras on their face, just tracking everyone's movements all the time. Without their consent, right? These organizers say that it threatens all of our safety, but especially the safety of women and girls in public by giving the wearers the ability to access information about them

Starting point is 00:36:57 without their consent. Like, whatever happened to some sort of consent-based system, But you're just out and about living your life, you're not consenting to whoever looks at you to have any kind of information about your whereabouts or who you are. And, you know, we talk a lot about consent in technology. And this is just a very good example of the fact that these people don't give us shit about consent. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:37:20 Consent to be identified. And then consent to have who knows what other information shared with the people who are wearing these glasses, right? because maybe the glasses just tell you the person's name, but meta sure knows a lot more information about everybody than just their name, right? And like, is there going to be a premium feature where you can pay a subscription and just get like the full everything about a person, what their relationship status is, who they're dating, what they're into, what kind of videos they like,

Starting point is 00:37:57 what kind of wine they like to drink? Like meta knows so much about us. You know, so there's a lot of reason to be concerned about the surveillance aspect of this in terms of having these cameras recording everybody. But there's also, I think, a lot of reason to be concerned about like, well, what does it look like for the end user who is viewing this information? What kind of information are they going to get about people? I'm imagining what it looks like when Terminator 2 looks at somebody. And you know in the movie when they show it through like T2 lens

Starting point is 00:38:38 and it's all this information and data and demographic stuff about people? Like that's how I'm imagining it in my head. Let me not give Mark Zuckerberg more horrible ideas for his technologies by saying that. Some people are fighting back though because 404 Media first reported that there's this new app called the Glasses Nearby app. that is meant to help people know when somebody is using meta glasses nearby. The developer of the app, Eves Jean Renaud, told 404, I consider it to be a tiny part of resistance against surveillance technology.

Starting point is 00:39:10 That's an interesting app. We should look into that. Yeah. And I don't even think we need to pretend that we don't know how this is going to end if meta does this. One of the anti-domestic violence organizations that spoke to the independent is quoted as saying, time and time again, we see what happens when devices go to market without proper consideration for how they might be used to harm women and girls, adding that it is unacceptable for women and girls'

Starting point is 00:39:34 safety to be treated as an afterthought. I mean, I don't think we, if they do this, and when you and I are on the microphone talking about how the woman who was stalked, the woman who was killed, the woman who was harmed, the woman who was exploited, I will

Starting point is 00:39:51 cut this audio and put it there because we don't need to wonder or speculate how this is going to end. We already know that these glasses are being used to film women without their consent. 404 also reported a while back about how people use these glasses to record women at massage parlors without their consent, and then that footage was uploaded and used to advertise adult content. So, again, we already know how meta-glasses are currently already being used. Adding facial recognition technology is only going to make that worse. And so, yeah, these domestic violence organizations are openly saying, this is going to hurt women.

Starting point is 00:40:29 And Mena is like, we're fine with that if it makes us money. And it's just another example of how the exploitation of women and girls is a feature, not a bug, to people like this who are building technology. More after a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygle and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to D. David Letterman help make you funnier.

Starting point is 00:41:03 This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and headwriter, Streeter Seidel, help an Acapella band with their between songs banter. There's the worst singer in the group. The worst? Yeah. Me. Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard, you only got in because your parents made a huge donation.

Starting point is 00:41:22 The group. The yard birds, right? That's the name. The Harvard yard, but they're open to change. Do you have a name suggestion? We're open. since you guys are middle-aged. One erection.

Starting point is 00:41:36 Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Humor me. I need some jokes to make me seem funny. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ad-supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHeart's. twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message.

Starting point is 00:42:04 Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHeart. Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Call 844-844-I-Hart to get started. That's 844-Ehart. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas.

Starting point is 00:42:21 And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. and finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs.

Starting point is 00:42:44 I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's first, friends stop by like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too.

Starting point is 00:43:02 Steve Nash will get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers why he got the ball like, after you go through a training camp with that Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There are times when the mind becomes a difficult place to live.

Starting point is 00:43:27 This is David Eagleman with the Inner Cosmos podcast, and for Mental Health Awareness Month, we're dedicating a series to understanding the mind when it struggles. I'm joined by doctors, researchers, and those with lived experience. We'll talk with singer-songwriter Jewel about anxiety. I started living in my car, and then my car got stolen. I was shoplifting. I was having panic attacks. I was agoraphobic. And making it through hardship.

Starting point is 00:43:54 To be present is a learned skill. and it's hard to be present. We'll talk with John Nelson about clinical depression and the brain implant that saved his life. What I learned is that procedure made me happy because I'm disease-free. And we'll talk with leading experts like Judd Brewer about anxiety and John Hirschfield about obsessive-compulsive disorder

Starting point is 00:44:17 and the science of how the brain can change. This is a month of deeply personal and honest conversations about what happens when the brain. brain goes off course and what we can do about it. Listen to Inner Cosmos on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's get right back into it. This is not usually the kind of story that we cover here, but I did want to just quickly

Starting point is 00:44:53 talk about what's happening with Anthropic and the Pentagon because to me it's a pretty big deal and I just want to make sure that it gets included in our conversation. So Anthropic, the makers of the very popular chat bot, Claude, they have kind of a reputation for being one of the more safety-minded big AI companies. I know that is not saying a lot, especially when their competitors are held by folks like Elon Musk, who we know that his AI is being used to post child sexual abuse material all over the internet. And folks like Mark Zuckerberg, who we were just talking about, his entire dark digital empire, is premised on the idea that harming people is okay, it that makes money.

Starting point is 00:45:35 in that landscape, it is pretty easy to be considered kind of the safety-minded one of the group, and so I want to be clear that I know that that is not saying much, but that is the case for Anthropic, right, Mike? Yeah, that's right.

Starting point is 00:45:50 Their CEO does seem like a little bit of a different type of guy. They've really gone out of their way to brand themselves as more safety-minded, and also put in place, I think, procedures that they follow with the development of their AI to make it, to ensure that it is more safe than what we see from some of their competitors.

Starting point is 00:46:18 Of course, earlier this week, they walked some of that back, you know, but that's neither here nor there. Yeah, and it's, you know, it's super complicated with AI because all of these systems burn tremendous amounts of energy and are prone to like a lot of issues. But all that said, yeah, I agree. I think, you know, of the group, Anthropic is known to sort of stand out

Starting point is 00:46:50 as being more concerned about safety. Yes, and we're not, I want to be clear that I don't think either of us is like endorsing anthropic, but just contextually, that context is important to understand what's going on. Anthropic also has, I would say they're notable for having more transparency around how its models work. A lot of other AI companies are much more opaque about this. Anthropic has been more transparent.

Starting point is 00:47:15 And I think that that transparency is one of the reasons why Claude was the first AI chatbot that the Pentagon adopted in its own systems, including cases where it processes classified information. This was obviously a major PR win for Anthropic, as well as came along with a pretty lucrative contract deal worth $200 million. So that contract with the Department of Defense is now in jeopardy because Secretary of Defense Pete Heggseth says that he is unwilling to accept restrictions that Anthropic has put in place over what its AI can and cannot be used for. Now, there are two specific restrictions that Anthropic CEO Dario Amodi has insisted on. One is that Claude's AI cannot be used for autonomous weapon systems. So basically, no killer robots. And this is important because we're really seeing more and more increasingly sophisticated and increasingly autonomous drones being used in military conflicts.

Starting point is 00:48:18 The second restriction is that Anthropic does not want its endocratting. AI to be used for mass surveillance against Americans. Now, I don't know about EU, but these seem like very reasonable restrictions to me. If anything, they do not go far enough. People in democracies should resist mass surveillance of any kind, I think, out of principle, regardless of citizenship. And the prospect of AI system is making decisions about targeting people with deadly force is just terrifying for multiple reasons. Not the least of all is that the least of all is that the fact that we know that AI is more likely to make mistakes when people from marginalized backgrounds are involved. So, yeah, pretty reasonable, two pretty reasonable restrictions from Anthropics.

Starting point is 00:49:04 So Manthropic has drawn a hard line against its AI being used for either of those two applications. I think most people would agree, not Secretary Pete Heggseth. Secretary Pete Hexeth feels so strongly about it that he is threatening to use the Defense Production Act to force anthropic to allow him to use its AI for whatever he wants. The Defense Production Act allows the government to take over industrial processes and goods if it's necessary for national security. And Pete Heggsat is arguing that it would be necessary for national security. The Defense Production Act, if that sounds familiar, it's because it was most recently used during the initial years of the COVID pandemic to ramp up production of medical supplies like ventilators and PPE.

Starting point is 00:49:48 Now, Hegset is saying that any restrictions on what the Pentagon is allowed to do with Anthropics products are a threat to national security. So he should be allowed to seize those products if Anthropic will not provide them willingly. And if he does, this would be a pretty novel, not to mention unsettling use of the Defense Production Act. Talking to the Washington Post, a director at the Center for Strategic and International Studies for Industrial Base issues named Jerry McGinn said that they weren't even sure if that law had ever been used that way in the past.

Starting point is 00:50:19 Yeah. Yeah, Hengsteth has been very open, including during his confirmation hearings and his time on Fox News before that, that he really views things like rules of engagement or any other restrictions on military force as like woke nonsense that he doesn't have time for, thinks is bad for America. one of his first actions when he became the Secretary of Defense was to fire a bunch of military lawyers because he thought they were going to get in his way for doing things, which prompted people to ask what sort of things is he planning on doing,

Starting point is 00:50:58 that having lawyers around would be problematic. So that's just like his baseline attitude, and it's not terribly surprising that he doesn't like the idea of anthropics restrictions. Yeah, it is not surprising. So the latest here is that Pete Hegseth has given Anthropica deadline of 5 p.m. on Friday, February 27th, the date if this episode comes out. As of us recording this episode on February 26th, the evening before that deadline, Anthropica said that they are not going to cave. They put out a statement saying, using these systems for mass domestic surveillance is incompatible with democratic values.

Starting point is 00:51:38 and today, Frontier AI systems are simply not reliable enough to power fully autonomous weapons. These threats do not change our position. We cannot, in good conscience, accede to their request. It seems like a pretty big deal if the Trump administration is able to essentially seize AI technology and control it in this way. And again, it really just, it sounds to me like this is about who gets to control AI. And I guess the Trump administration feels like it's them and anthropic feels differently. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:52:12 And apparently also the Trump administration, like, it's hard to look at all this and not feel like they are intending to use it for mass domestic surveillance. Like they say that they aren't, but they're liars. I saw this statement that Pete Hagsap put out and he said, oh, the fact, the claim that we want to use AI to mass surveil citizens is just a leftist talking point, because mass surveillance of American citizens is illegal.

Starting point is 00:52:46 First of all, like that, has ever stopped y'all from doing a goddamn thing ever. Second of all, y'all are already mass surveilling people. So what are you even talking about? Then he goes on to say, those two points of contention are just liberal, leftist talking points. We just want to use AI to defend national security. It's not even a good statement. It's not even a statement that it's the kind of statement that you read and you're like, well, it's clear that you want to do

Starting point is 00:53:09 these two things that Anthropic has said that you want to do. Yeah, it's like pretty farcical what they're trying to argue. Yeah, we'll stay on it. I'm so curious that this is going to become like a bigger story over the weekend depending on what Hagseth decides to do because it seems like Anthropic is not going to cave. Well, speaking of domestic mass surveillance, we do have to talk about what's going on in Kansas.

Starting point is 00:53:35 It's enraging and heartbreaking. The excellent trans rights publication, Aaron in the Morning, is reporting that trans folks in Kansas are receiving letters from the state's division of vehicles that their driver's licenses are now considered invalid after the publication of a new law on Thursday, February 26. Now, per this new law, driver's licenses in Kansas are only valid if they indicate a person's sex assigned at birth. Now, this law has no grace period. You basically go to bed and you wake up and your driver's license is invalid. You are not legally permitted to drive your car. Not that it would make it better if there was a grace period because it absolutely wouldn't, but just to give you a sense of how haphazard, which I think is intentional, this policy change has been. So this new law, which contains multiple provisions aimed at making life different. and dangerous for trans folks was initially vetoed by the governor only to be overridden by the legislature. It was called the bathroom bounty bill because one of the things it does is essentially

Starting point is 00:54:45 set up a bounty system that encourages members of the public to sue trans people for entering bathrooms that match their gender. So that's bad enough. But as Aaron in the morning points out, the driver's license provisions are part of a broader national push by anti-trans activists to deny trans folks access to accurate legal identification documents. It follows federal actions made by the Trump administration that prevent trans folks from getting passports that reflect their gender and new rules under the Social Security Administration that prevent people from updating their gender. Florida, Texas, Indiana, and other states have similarly taken steps to prevent folks from

Starting point is 00:55:23 changing the gender that's displayed on their driver's license. Just side note, Aaron in the morning is an invaluable resource for journalism about attacks on trans folks. We'll put the link in the show notes, but I highly recommend that folks sign up for the newsletter and support their journalism if you're able to do that. These efforts to deny trans folks accurate identification, it's not just inconvenient. It is dangerous. Y'all might remember Britney Stewart. She's the attorney that we spoke with a couple of weeks ago in an episode about the trans

Starting point is 00:55:54 Oklahoma grad student who was relieved up her teaching duties at her university after giving a student a bad grade on a paper. Brittany is also a trans woman, and I asked Brittany for her thoughts, and here's what she had to say. This week in Kansas, the state legislature overrode the veto of Governor Kelly of a bill that affects trans people's use of restrooms, creating a private bounty if people use a restroom that matches their gender identity rather than their sex assigned at birth. But it also went further. and the new law actually requires that trans people have their sex assigned at birth listed on their Kansas driver's license and identification cards. In 2005, I came out fully to my family and began hormone replacement therapy. At the time, in Oklahoma, they did not allow updating the sex marker on driver's licenses, unless one had had permanent surgical changes.

Starting point is 00:57:04 So for a time, I carried a driver's license with my name as Brittany, with a photo of me looking like a woman, but with a sex marker of M for male. It was terrifying driving, especially outside of Oklahoma City, where I worried that a small town cup might pull me over, see that my sex marker doesn't match my appearance, and use it as a reason to abuse me.

Starting point is 00:57:32 Today, Kansas is forcing that to be the reality for all trans people, regardless of their surgical status or their years lived authentically. I had my bottom surgery in 2007, and Oklahoma allowed me to update my birth certificate and driver's license after that, so it's been almost 20 years since I've had to live with that fear. But today, Transcans, regardless of if they've had those documents updated for decades, will now have to either carry identification that outs them or flee to another state. That's where we're at.

Starting point is 00:58:14 And because of the Supreme Court decision this past summer that dissolved the injunction that had stopped the U.S. government from doing the same thing on passports, and providing the reasoning that sex assigned at birth can be listed because, quote, it's just a historic fact, there will likely not be an easy way for courts to stop this. These policies won't stop in Kansas. This is the beginning of a transgenocide. I have resisted using that word for a while, because it can sound hyperbolic, especially when used too soon. But this is reality. We trans people only make up about 1% of the population.

Starting point is 00:59:01 So we need our allies to get loud. March in the streets for us. Occupy the Kansas Capitol building for us. Fight back in every state and territory for us. Stop falling for right-wing concern trolls about, quote, just protecting kids or, quote, protecting women's sports when they are literally protecting pedophiles. First they came for the immigrants. Now they're coming from the trans folks. It's that serious. I'll end this with some hope and joy, though. In 2017, I married my best friend and the love of my life, a straight cis guy from the working class who was willing to stand proudly next to his woman, who was not just a trans woman, but a trans woman who was well known, and out and about.

Starting point is 00:59:55 out and open about my life, having been the first out trans candidate for public office in Oklahoma. He risked family and friends to marry me. So I know there are good cisgender folks out there, and we need you now more than ever. Thank you. Brittany is not the only voice that I've heard appealing to cis allies to really make a lot of noise about this, because these escalating attacks against trans folks, are simply unacceptable. And we need to make that clear to everyone,

Starting point is 01:00:29 elected officials and everybody else. More after a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guide, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman, help make you funnier.

Starting point is 01:00:55 This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an Acapella band with their between songs banter. There's the worst singer in the group. The worst? Yeah. Me. Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard,

Starting point is 01:01:10 you only got in because your parents made a huge donation. The group. The yard birds, right? That's the name. The Harvard yard, but they're open. Do you have a name suggestion? We're open. Since you guys are middle-aged.

Starting point is 01:01:25 One erection. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app. podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Huber me. I need some jokes to make me seem funny. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ads supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHearts twice as large as the next two combined.

Starting point is 01:01:54 So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHeart. Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Let us show you at IHeartadvertising.com. That's iHeartadvertising.com. What's up, fam?

Starting point is 01:02:12 It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves. I got to manipulate the game.

Starting point is 01:02:33 We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nasree. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson,

Starting point is 01:02:52 we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers, why he got the ball like, after you go through a training camp with that I said, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court,

Starting point is 01:03:09 and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everyone, it's Ryder Strong, and Will Ferdell from PodMeets World. And now the Pod Meets Twirled podcast. We're two men who were completely clueless to reality TV, who now have covered Dancing with the Stars,

Starting point is 01:03:31 traders, and we're gearing up for the season finale of Survivor. So yeah, now we're experts. I know we annoyed a lot of our listeners by our severe lack of survivor knowledge. That is the point of the show. I'm just going to remind you. I have watched some Survivor.

Starting point is 01:03:48 I obviously haven't watched enough. Did people not like it? Like what was just because we? Yeah. We'll be recapping the big conclusion at the 50th season from the final attempts at gameplay to the desperate pleas of finalists to a bunch of, ha, who.

Starting point is 01:04:02 Ah, ha, who. Again, we. are experts. So make sure to tune in to Pod Meets Twirled for all our Survivor 50 takes. Listen to PodMeets Twirled on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's get right back into it. Just a quick heads up, this segment talks about murder. So back in 2022, there was a very high profile tragic murder of students at the University of Idaho. And it was one of those situations where people were using social media platforms like TikTok to weigh in. which is often the case in our sort of true crime obsessed landscape

Starting point is 01:04:48 where whenever something tragic happens, strangers follow it like it's a television show and not the tragedies of real people who you don't even know. One of the people weighing in was a Texas woman who says that she is psychic who used TikTok to accuse a University of Idaho professor of the murders. So the Idaho statesman reports that Ashley Gouliard, a TikTok personality who claims, to have psychic abilities, is due in federal court in Boise this week

Starting point is 01:05:17 for a scheduled trial to finally resolve the three-year-old civil suit brought by the professor that she accused of murder, Rebecca Schofield. Now, to be super clear, Schofield, the chair of the University of Idaho History Department, has never met or taught any of the four students who were murdered. She wrote this in her denial. She was also out of town in Oregon when these students were killed. So she just genuinely had nothing to do with it.

Starting point is 01:05:44 I just want to make that super clear. Back in June of 2024, a judge ruled in favor of Schofield, and now it is up to a jury to decide what the financial damages will be. Schofield previously asked for more than $1.8 million. Now, this TikTok psychic, her behavior is wild. She published more than 100 videos

Starting point is 01:06:06 that made erroneous allegations against Schofield. The accusations included that the professor had a romantic relationship with one of the four victims, which, again, she never met them, had no contact with them, and ordered their deaths to prevent the affair with a female student from becoming public. Again, that's completely made up. The professor sent her cease and desist letters, but those letters were ignored. And understandably, the professor, Schofield, says that the allegations have led to PTSD and considerable professional hardship, which I have no trouble believing that. Yeah, allegations that she was having an affair with one of her students

Starting point is 01:06:44 and then, like, murdered four of them. I can see how that would be, you know, a challenging professional context around the old university. Now, Gileard, the TikTok psychic, her defense is First Amendment-based, according to the Idaho statesman. She has maintained that the defamation lawsuit infringed upon her First Amendment rights and her free expression of religion. She says that because she reads tarot cards, she argues that it's a spiritual practice that led her to, quote, uncover the motive and details that led to the murder. Even though this woman had nothing to do with the murder. So her tarot and like spiritual alignment is leading her in the wrong direction.

Starting point is 01:07:31 You should not be able to use your platform to accuse a. random stranger of a brutal crime they did not commit on a public platform. And honestly, I think this case is kind of a sign of the times because when platforms won't really police this kind of thing and the law hasn't really caught up, I think increasingly the only tool that we're seeing people have is to just sue. Like a defamation lawsuit is sort of becoming the new cease and desist. Because I think with social media, we have this climate that anybody can say anything about anybody and it's okay, right? And like, I think more and more people are like, actually, it's not okay. If it causes me hardship or makes me lose money, I'm going to sue you. And like,

Starting point is 01:08:14 for what it's worth, these lawsuits are expensive and slow. It takes years. Like, this civil case actually outlive the actual criminal trial for the murders. But I do think it kind of becomes people's only real recourse when somebody with a platform just decides that they're going to ruin their life via accusations that are just like fanfiction, not grounded in any kind of reality. That's right. We've seen that lots of times and stories that we've talked about on this show

Starting point is 01:08:43 where, yeah, defamation lawsuits are one of the seemingly few tools available for these harms that occur when people say patently untrue things on social media. Yeah, and I do hope, I've done an episode about this, before, I do think this is related to the rise of true crime and the rise of social media platforms. In the episode that we did about true crime, we'll put it in the show notes, I talked about how,

Starting point is 01:09:18 and I know that you know this about me, but when I was young, one of my good friends was murdered by a serial killer. And it was like, I mean, before my parents died, this was the thing that kind of separated my life in phases of like before this happened and then after this happened. Like that's how much of a, that's how much it shattered my world. And I remember when it happened, my friend for a time was before, before she was found dead, she was missing, right? And so the presumption was that she was still alive. There was a, a, a search. for her and her story was all over the news. And I will never forget watching that bitch, Nancy Grace, basically go on television and essentially blame my good friend for her own murder

Starting point is 01:10:19 by highlighting the fact that my friend was kind of a punk rocker and went to a lot of punk shows, was an artist, had an alternative look about her. She did not fit the persona of, you know, know, she was white, but she did not fit the persona of a, you know, angelic-looking white girl who has gone missing. And essentially made it sound as if my friend was it probably involved with seedy people doing seedy things, and that's why she was missing. My friend was murdered by a serial killer who she had never met, was completely unknown to her, snatched her from a fucking parking lot.

Starting point is 01:10:58 And I will never forget. what it felt like to have a stranger offer their unasked for, based in nothing pulled out of her ass opinion about what might have happened to my friend, based on fucking fabrications and nothing else. And so I think that when tragedies happen, because we listen to a lot of true crime because it feels good to like turn other people's pain into content. And I think it, I think it is easy for people to be divorced from the fact that these are real people and real communities and real loved ones and real families. I think it makes, it emboldens people to get on TikTok and to say whatever because it's just content. It's not real people. And it's so hurtful and so

Starting point is 01:11:52 harmful and so damaging. And yeah, I don't like that we're in a climate where the only real recourse folks have when this happens to them is to sue, but people shouldn't be allowed to do this. It's so harmful and so damaging. And I hate that we have an internet landscape that rewards it because nothing gets engagement in clicks like someone getting on TikTok and saying absolute nonsense about a tragedy that happened to people that don't even know. Just a quick Up, this segment talks about Nikki Minaj and her hard right-wing pivot. Oh, we're talking about it. Nikki Minaj, I'll just say it. Don't, I mean, I used to like her. There, it's like the, I, we did an episode about Nikki Minaj and the Barb's. And let me tell you, there have only been a few, a handful of

Starting point is 01:12:46 times in my career where I have been worried about being critical about somebody. One was Oprah. What I the epic behind the bastards, like six-part series on whether or not Oprah Winfrey is a bastard, probably one of the pinnacles of my career, to be honest with you. I genuinely was checking my email and I don't check my physical mailbox hardly ever. I was checking my mailbox so sure I had a cease and desist coming. I was like living in fear. The only other person that I felt that way about is Nikki Minaj because the barbs. I don't want it with the barbs. I've had a little bit of it from the barbs. I don't want it from the barbs.

Starting point is 01:13:24 So she has done this kind of hard right-wing pivot. I have lots of reasons for why I think that is. They're not really appropriate for this episode. I think there are some specific reasons regarding Nikki Minaj is married to a convicted pedophile who is on a sex registry list for crimes against minors. those are just two facts about Nikki Minaj. You know, when people have hardships and need money and access, they do things.

Starting point is 01:14:02 They do things. Also, side note, let it be known how quick a bum man will ruin your life. You could go from being the top, the pinnacle of culture, so relevant, putting out hits and hits and hits, to seeing yourself on stage with JD Vance. Donald Trump real quick. Let that be a lesson to you. Like, a bum man, and your association with a bum man can ruin your life real quick. So, Nikki Minaj, hard right-wing pivot. She appeared on stage with Trump at the Trump Account Summit in D.C. back in January, where she spoke in favor of Trump and his policies. She's been sharing these very weird, obviously AI-generated pictures of her with

Starting point is 01:14:45 Trump, I guess, to be like, oh, Trump and I were so buddy, buddy now. Well, now we have a little more insight into how all of this is playing out online from a piece in Politico that outlined a new report. It's kind of similar to the conversations that we had around bots and how they can be used to amplify narratives online. We talked to the authors of a report about Taylor Swift and bots, but this new report compiled by the disinformation detection company, Cybra, identifies a coordinated network of bots. More than 18,000 of them are driving algorithms to spread Nikki Minaj's right-wing posts on X. We've actually been in touch with Cybra about something else.

Starting point is 01:15:27 Black fatigue, if you ever see the comment Black Fatigue on TikTok, they have a very interesting report about that. So hopefully, at some point soon you will hear from them on the podcast. But as we learned about in our episode about Taylor Swift and bots, it really matters who was commissioning a report. And per Politico, the Scyabra report was commissioned by a person who was granted an anonymity because they fear public retribution. Y'all, I'm dying to know who that person is.

Starting point is 01:15:56 Yeah, so curious. Is Nikki Benaz, is she one of these like online right-wing people who, who target specific people? Like, are there people that she is taking down like Candace Owen style? Or is her content more just like, Trump is so great and I love Trump? That's a very good question

Starting point is 01:16:18 and the answer is pretty nuanced. It's sick how much I follow her social media. The answer is sort of both. She is someone who has a lot of personal disputes and beefs. She actually, I'll let you ask her. She actually just published a beef list or an enemies list just like a week ago. It's such a flex to not only have an enemy's list, but to publish it, be like, I want

Starting point is 01:16:43 everyone to know. Yeah, I wonder, could it be one of her many beefs who commissioned that report? Could it be Cardi B or Meg the Stallion? Imagine that you're working as a disinformation researcher, and Cardi B calls you and is like, I needed to put together a report on Nikki Minaj's social media. That would be the greatest day of my life. I don't know that I'd be able to keep it anonymous. I have to tell people.

Starting point is 01:17:11 Okay, so the report found that inauthentic accounts repeatedly amplified Nikki Minaj's post with praise that used, quote, highly similar language, particularly in response to posts where authentic accounts were criticizing Minaj. Quote, supportive comments generated by fake profiles were predominantly brief, repetitive, and low in semantic complexity, consisting largely of praising keywords and positive hashtags, rather than original or substantive engagement the report found. Other inauthentic activity surrounding Minaj

Starting point is 01:17:42 included longer, more detailed comments designed to appear organic. Cyber identified one day, December 26th, when fake profiles made up 56% of all comments on political posts made by Nikki Minaj. The founders of Cybra said, we don't really see a lot of high volume, high impact orchestration of bad and fake actors

Starting point is 01:18:03 within that intersection of geopolitically driven and music culture. It is scarce in our field to see the combination of the bad and the fake online world with the entertainment world. So some of the comments on social media that they deem to be fake say things like, Nikki, you are brave for living your truth. People might not always agree with what's being played out, but as an artist and watching your growth as a person is inspiring. And this came from user L-A-X-6-28-38-3-3-3-4.

Starting point is 01:18:33 six, five, six, which I feel is like a little bit of the giveaway. Yeah. They couldn't have made the name sound like, I don't know, but like Barb's, maybe Barb's underscore and then the number, but like a shorter number. Something, like try a little bit or just like some words,

Starting point is 01:18:55 not just a string of letters and numbers. I mean, I guess they, I think they use the people who are running these bot networks. I think they like reuse them across different campaigns. So I can understand

Starting point is 01:19:11 why it wouldn't be like Barb lover 69 or whatever. Yeah. But like you gotta do better than just a string of letters and numbers.

Starting point is 01:19:24 Talk about low and semantic complexity. Yeah. Seriously. Something that we learned from the folks who put together the Taylor Swift

Starting point is 01:19:33 bot report is that it's not just the bots operating in a silo. The point is to integrate into genuine, authentic conversations to increase credibility and visibility. And that's exactly what the people who wrote this report about Nikki Minaj's online content also saw. Interestingly, the report also says that Nikki is taking advantage of how algorithms boost toxic content. This is from Politico. When accounts boosting Minaj posted content that researchers identified as toxic, the algorithm drove her posts even further. Companies like Cybra determined toxicity by assessing not just the positive or negative words used in a post, but the apparent intent behind them. Personal attacks, slurs, threats, or comments that seem to decide to deter a reasonable person from engaging in conversation

Starting point is 01:20:22 are typically considered toxic. When the conversation is limited to toxic content, a substantially stronger amplification effect emerges. These accounts predominantly amplify content produced by Nikki Minaj and Turning Points USA, indicating a notable overlap between the two within this discourse. Several of the accounts involved had previously been identified as exhibiting fake campaign-like behavior in the context of Minaj's online activity within and relating to the music industry. So basically, unfortunately, as we always see on social media,

Starting point is 01:20:55 the toxicity is part of why this content is amplified across platforms. And it doesn't surprise me that they were looking at X, where Minaj is increasingly more prevalent. I think that at least temporarily she deleted her Instagram account after the whole kind of right-wing pivot with Trump. Even though Nikki Minaj has been like this for a long time, like, I'm fascinated by her, but like this didn't come out of nowhere. this has been, if you've been paying attention to Nikki Minaj,

Starting point is 01:21:26 this is not surprising that this is kind of what she's doing now. But X, it doesn't surprise me that that is where she's really spending a lot of her time. That's what this report is focused on. Because it's just a platform where the shit rises. I don't know if you've spent any time on X recently, but I go there, like, once every three months to weeks too late retweet when somebody tags me in something like a podcast. or a guest spot I did.

Starting point is 01:21:55 I'm like, oh, I will never see it. But anytime I'm there, it's just the worst of the worst of the worst nonsense. And it's not just down at the bottom. It's amplified. So it isn't surprised me that Nikki Minaj is taking advantage of the fact that toxicity and slurs and threats, that's what plays on X. So that's why she's on X. And that's why the bots are on X, amplifying her Trump stuff.

Starting point is 01:22:19 Yeah, like that's, I have the same experience with X. Like once every couple months, I'll, like, be reading an article that links to a tweet or an X or whatever they call them now. And I'll go there and just immediately is such garbage. Like, that seems to be what it's for is, like, toxicity and hate and, and also just nonsense, though. Like it's, if it's, if content there seems to be either like hateful or just like really dumb, like the least informed takes I've read anywhere on the internet. Yes, I could not agree with you more. I have seen the exact same thing. It's not all just bots though.

Starting point is 01:23:04 And this is usually of the hallmark of these inauthentic campaigns is that they're kind of, it's some bots and inauthentic accounts. and then a string of authentic accounts from real people that are also in the midst. So these are accounts by folks like Matt Wallace or other conservative figures who sort of layer in and authentically amplify in authentic narratives by engaging with it. As one of the authors of the report said, real human beings are behaving the exact same way, utilizing the exact same behavioral patterns as you would expect from a well-coordinated campaign. They amplify each other.

Starting point is 01:23:40 They are writing the same, similar wave of narratives. So Nikki Minaj obviously did not reply to Politico's request for comment, but Alan Broussoitz, a media and political advisor to Trump, who considers Nikki a, quote, very close friend, did tell Politico that he was confident that there are no bots involved with Nikki Minaj's social presence. Nikki has never used bot activity to promote herself on social media because she doesn't need to.

Starting point is 01:24:06 She has one of the largest fan bases of any musician that's alive today. how would they know this? Why would a staffer for the Trump administration know whether or not Nikki Minaj has ever used bot accounts? And it might not even be like, if you ask me, Nikki Minaj is absolutely doing this. She is using bot accounts.

Starting point is 01:24:30 But it might not even be Nikki. There's definitely been reports where someone else is coordinating bot accounts on someone else's behalf. So how, how do you? could this person definitively say, oh, there is, Nikki Minaj is the one public figure in the history of the internet where there is absolutely zero bot or inauthentic activity surrounding conversation about her, period. How would they know that? Yeah, I mean, maybe he knows because he's, maybe it's him. Maybe he's paying for the bots. He's like, oh, yeah, Nikki's not using the bots. I am. I am using the bots. What if he's using the boss and paid for the report? He's the anonymous source. Oh, wow. Because he is wracked by guilt, or he's just a chaos agent?

Starting point is 01:25:20 Just try to layer on the smokescreen. Don't pour cold water on my conspiracy by trying to make it make sense. Well, it's been a rough black history month from the Nicki Minaj thing, from the Sinners Baptist thing. And I guess this is our last episode of Black History Month, and I realized I didn't acknowledge it. In order to receive your gift, by the way, I hope it's in the mail. You've got a few days left to give me my Black History Month gift. It's there. You just haven't found it yet. Yeah, I mailed it a long time ago.

Starting point is 01:25:53 Maybe you should go check your mail. Okay, I'm going to assume it's downstairs in my mailbox, and I'll get it after we tape. But I didn't want to share a cool post that I saw from Threads user unapologetically Jackie that I didn't know, which is that every time you drop a reaction, GIF, do you say GIF or GIF? I say GIF. Oh, I say GIF. Weird.

Starting point is 01:26:14 Steve Wilhite, the creator of Graphics Interchange Format or GIF, in 1987, says that the correct pronunciation is GIF with a soft G, mimicking the peanut butter brand, GF. While the hard G pronunciation is widely used, he insisted in his 2013 Webby's award speech that it's Jiff. saying he famously said, choosy programmers choose Jif. That's actually pretty good.

Starting point is 01:26:40 That is pretty good. In any event, every time you drop a Jif or GIF, thank Lisa Jolobter. Or is it Gilobter? Oh, hard G-G-soft G. We'll see. She helped engineer the animation tech

Starting point is 01:26:55 that made GIFs, GIF. Black women have been running internet culture. Y'all just got here. And that's true. I love that. Lisa, if you're listening, Thank you for your contributions to internet culture. Every time I post a GIF of Nini Leaks reacting to something, I will think of you.

Starting point is 01:27:13 Also, very quickly, I wanted to say, thank you to everybody who left very kind comments about the book. Thank you to those of you who have sent in your book pre-orders. If you missed it, Mike and I have an audiobook coming out about intimacy and AI called Love at First Prompt. It is available for pre-order now. You can go to love at first prompt.com to pre-order it. It would mean the world to me if y'all did that, but no pressure. If you pre-order it and send us a screenshot of your pre-order, you can email it, you can post it on social, whatever you want to do. We will send you, I will write you a handwritten thank you note one.

Starting point is 01:27:51 And we will send you a sticker. If you already have a sticker, maybe a magnet, well, we'll send you something cool. We love you so much. The reaction has been tremendous. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate it. If you want to be part of that, please pre-order the book and we will send you something. We promise. Thanks for listening.

Starting point is 01:28:09 Let us know what you thought about these stories. You can send us an email at hello at tangoity.com. Leave us a comment on Spotify. We've been getting a lot of great comments on Spotify. It's fantastic. Thank you for leaving them. And you can follow Bridget on social. Bridget Marie in D.C. on Instagram and TikTok.

Starting point is 01:28:27 You can follow There Are No Girls on the Internet on YouTube and Blue Sky. So hope to see you. And I will see you on the internet. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi? You can reach us at hello at tangoody.com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangoity. There are no girls on the internet was created by me, Bridget Todd. It's a production of IHeart Radio and Unbossed Creative.

Starting point is 01:28:53 Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. Edited by Joey Pat. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, write and review us on Apple. podcasts. For more podcasts from IHeartRadio, check out the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor

Starting point is 01:29:28 me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an Acapella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for bands. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano. It's our favorite time of the year on our podcast point game, the playoffs. We're digging into the biggest surprises of the season. And I'm looking back on some of my greatest playoff moments.

Starting point is 01:30:06 If we didn't talk ever again, I was funny. You just understood. That's how personal it got. Wow. Then after that game seven, Marquis come in to you, he's like, you know I love you, dog. You know, it's all love. This was just playoffs. This was just basketball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Your husband is not who you think he is. Your body is not what you thought it was.

Starting point is 01:30:29 Your identity is formed by a secret history. I'm Danny Shapiro. And these are just a few of the stunning stories I'll be exploring on the 14th season of Family Secrets. He kind of shoved me out of the way and said, move. And he went out the front door and he jumped in a car and drove off. And that was the last time I saw him. Listen to Season 14 of Family Secrets on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and hosts of the podcast, a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans.

Starting point is 01:31:05 I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change. We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes. You can have opinions. can have like a strong stance. And then there's your body having its own program. Listen to a slight change of plans on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.

There Are No Girls on the Internet - BAFTAs racial slur; Nicki Minaj bot network; TikTok “Psychic” faces Defamation trial for University of Idaho murders – NEWS ROUNDUP!

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