There Are No Girls on the Internet - BONUS: The Meghan Markle information war

Episode Date: January 12, 2023

Meghan and Harry are being targeted by a media manipulation campaign.Former counterintelligence agent Asha Rangappa breaks down how they’re fighting back.    What Harry and Meghan Can Teach Us About Information Warfare: https://asharangappa.substack.com/p/what-harry-and-meghan-can-teach-us?utm_source=profile&utm_medium=reader2See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Call 844-844-I-Hart. Life is full of hurdles. So how do you keep going? On Hurtle with Emily Abadi, we're talking with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness from professional athletes, and Olympic champions about the challenges that shape them and the mindset that keeps them moving forward. At our level, at this scale, being able to fail in front of the entire world. Like, I can do anything. I can do anything. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. Like, wow, they're kind of trying to expose this. They're also trying to create a narrative. Like, they understand that they're in an information war. There Are No Girls on the Internet as a production of IHeart Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. Last month, former Royals Megan Markle and Prince Harry released a Netflix documentary

all about their decision to step back from the duties involved in being a member of the royal family. And this week, Harry's new memoir, called Spare, that chronicles his experiences in the royal family debuts as well. We've talked before about the wave of racist, sexist, conspiracy theories. series and disinformation campaigns that target Megan Markle. And in a piece called What Harry and Megan can teach us about information warfare, former FBI counterintelligence agent Asher Rangada says that Harry and Megan's recent media can actually provide a good blueprint for how to combat a disinformation campaign

in win an information war. So let's talk about the piece. It is fascinating. The piece is called what Harry and Megan can teach us about information warfare. I know that you're a big fan of the Royals. What drove you to write this piece kind of breaking down Megan and Harry and how, what we can take away about propaganda and information? Yeah, so I sat down to watch their Netflix docu series thinking this was just going to be some mind candy for me. I'm going to take a little break, you know, and escape it all.

But I thought it was actually a great window into some of the stuff that I was. I teach about. And in particular, they describe, because what they're doing in the course of this documentary is really describing the propaganda machine that is the British tabloid, you know, ecosystem and how it relates to the royal family. While they were describing that, it reminded me a lot of, about a lot of research that I've done about our own media ecosystem in the United States and in particular propaganda feedback loops that we have, for example, on the far right. And so I started, my ears perked up and I just started looking at the entire docu series through that lens. Like, wow, they're kind of trying to expose this. They're also trying to create a narrative.

Like, they understand that they're in an information war. And that's what this is about, you know? And then I remembered, I said, Prince Harry is on the commission on misinformation or information disorder with the Asson Institute. And I went and researched that and I looked at the report that they just put out. And I thought, you know, I think that there are some things that they are actually doing really well in this docu series, just from a strategic information warfare perspective. And I decided to write about it. Okay. So the piece is so fascinating. And one of the things that you point out is that it kind of functions as almost like counter propaganda. You write that the film kind of works to give truth and advantage in our own information ecosystem. Can you tell us more about what you mean? Yeah. So I have this substack where I'm

teaching basically an online course for anyone who wants to take it about information warfare and disinformation and how we combat it. And one of the things that I've covered is that we propaganda is such a loaded word, right? We tend to think of it as something that's always negative, and it's often used for manipulative and bad purposes. But there is, you know, there is a place for counterpropaganda where, you know, you put out your narrative. We did this in the Cold War. You know, we put out our democratic values. We were in ideological battle. And so, you know, in this context, you can't just cede the information specifically. to an adversary and let them shape perceptions and opinions. You have to get out there and tell

an affirmative story about the values that you stand for. That is a form of propaganda. It's white propaganda. It doesn't mean that it's bad, but I think that that's what they are doing and that's absolutely what they should be doing. So there was definitely a time where I, and a lot of us, kind of thought that ignoring certain unsavory things online was the way to go. You know, when they go low, you go high, be above it, or don't give that. the time of day. Well, it turns out that the just ignore it strategy was not the most effective, and it actually allowed conspiracy theories to fester and get even stronger. Similarly, Asha says, we can take a lesson from the way that Megan and Harry are not just sitting by

while an inaccurate narrative is created around them. Instead, they're setting the record straight by going to battle for the truth. Okay, so I have to say, like, I work in, like, media trying to combat things like mis and disinformation and online harassment. And I guess I would say there was a time where I thought that there were certain conspiracy theories that, like, were not worthy of coverage, right? And I felt like covering them was like legitimizing them. And I feel like I've spent the last few years of my career kind of playing catch up for that kind of error in strategy, error in judgment, because, you know, by being like, oh, we're not going to pay attention to that. That's crazy. Like, of course Democrats aren't eating babies. We're not going to even like dignify

that with a response, you look and you're like, oh, wow, this has actually kind of like gotten out of control. And one of the things that you write about is that the Netflix documentary is sort of an one of the things that it does, it's like it's getting into the battle for the truth. It's like at least being on the field. Can you tell us more about like how you see them doing that? Yeah. I mean, they're getting into the battle because they're putting something out and they're putting it out at a level and volume that can compete with this other propaganda a machine like this whole tabloid system, you know. But they're, if they were just tweeting on their own or doing something, you know, as

individuals, even though they're celebrities, it's just not going to, it's asymmetrical. It's not going to be able to have the same impact, whereas this docu-series are kind of, they're in the fight. And I think to your point about conspiracy theories, the problem is that what we have now is that traditional gatekeepers that, you know, that you. used to keep lies and conspiracy theories and really wacky things to the fringes, those gatekeepers no longer exist. You know, traditional journalists, you know, that had journalistic, you know, standards and

things like that. Most of that stuff used to stay on the fringes. It could not become mainstream. Well, with social media, where anybody can publish anything, everybody, you know, we've democratized media, which is really good in many. ways, but it also means that now anything can become mainstream. So you can't ignore them because they will gain traction and lies travel faster on the internet and social media than the truth. So in many ways, the truth is already catching up. And so you have to get in there. Ideally,

you get in there first and you get that first mover advantage if you can. Yeah. What do you think it says about like our current moment in media or like digital media that, But yeah, we can no longer depend on traditional, quote unquote, like media sources or, you know, figures to be those gatekeepers. Like when you think about the state of media, are you hopeful that we can get to a place where, like, truth and thoughtfulness and nuance can compete with lies, conspiracy theories, and inflammatory nonsense? I'm hopeful, but I think it's going to require a lot of work. So I think we need to think about those types of information as sort of psychological hacking, right? Like when you look and see all these people who believe in QAnon and the Democrats are eating babies or whatever, I mean, they have been hacked. Their brains have literally been hacked and, you know, hijacked and they believe these things.

And when you look at in the cyber intrusion realm, like the technical intrusion, when people, when companies get hacked, what they talk about is that, that, yes, you need to defend and deter the hackers. You need to try to prevent them from coming in. But at some point, you kind of have to acknowledge everybody's going to get hacked. And the best thing you can do is to be resilient when it happens. And so I think the key is how do we create resilience among the people who are going to be consuming and are targeted by this information? One of the things you just mentioned is what is really about media literacy.

How do you train people to understand the sources of information that they're consuming and be more critical about it? You know, digital literacy, civic literacy, so that you understand how the government works. So it becomes harder to believe dumb conspiracy theories about it, you know. So I think that there's a lot of things that we need to do to build resilience. Unfortunately, I think we spend a lot of time focusing on the social media platforms and how they should police themselves. and I personally think those platforms are kind of bad actors, right? They're like the tobacco industry. Like, they have an addictive product that's bad for everybody, and people are hooked,

and they have no financial interest in making it better. They really don't. It's so funny that you say this. My partner works in tobacco control, and we make this comparison all the time, where every now and then, Facebook will come out with, like, a very polished ad that's, like Facebook cares about digital literacy or blah, blah, blah. And it's like, or protecting democracy. And it's like, then you would shut down.

It's like the same way that like there's not a safe for cigarette. If you were really interested in like making a product that's not harming everybody and breaking all of our brains, you would dismantle and shut down. Yeah. You would, you would burn the company down. They don't care about you. They don't care about democracy. They care about making a buck. And if you look at the top performing sites on Facebook, for example, what is it?

like Breitbart and Dan Bungee. I mean, these are, you know, during COVID, it was the, you know, COVID misinformation sites, the anti-vax sites that were, that were the most, had the most engagement on Facebook. So, no, they don't care about you or me. And I think, you know, because the damage is in many ways invisible, unlike with tobacco, you're not, you know, you don't have people dying of cancer and where you can point to something. It becomes harder to really wrap our minds around, although with the Facebook whistleblower last year, Francis Hogan, you know, we have seen, you know, harms manifest, for example, with teens, teenage girls and suicidal tendencies and things like that that have come out of social media. So maybe if we start to approach it in a public health mindset the way we did with smoking, maybe we can start to get some regulations.

But I really think the regulatory aspect is going to be very slow and long term. And what we need in the short term is to build resilience on our side. Let's take a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ads supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHearts twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message.

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It doesn't sound like you're holding out hope for like, certainly not for tech leaders at platforms to police themselves appropriately or responsibly or ethically. It doesn't sound like you're really putting a lot of hope into like government to sort of take action. So in absence of like tech leaders doing anything or government, meant doing anything? What like, is the resilience factor on us as individuals, like, just like really making sure that we understand what we're consuming and what it's like, what it's trying to get us to think or not think? Yes. I think that it's up to us as consumers of this technology, as consumers of the information, like the substance of the information.

And I think also as citizens in terms of understanding our relationship with other people, people. Most of these disinformation narratives, like even the Megan Harry thing, like it's all about trying to create cleavages, right? Like, whose side are you on? Are you, are you Harry Megan? Are you William Kate? Like, it's all about division and tribalism and whose team are you on? And what we need to do, I think also is think about our relationships offline, because the more that we can build true human connection in real life across all of these different social cleavages and beliefs and ideologies or whatever, it becomes much harder to divide you when you're online. Yeah, that's something that we talk about a lot on the show is the way that these,

things become kind of like turned into a really specific binary. And so if you're someone like, I'm not a huge person who's into the Royals that much. As a black woman, I liked it that I liked the idea of like a black princess. I know she wasn't a princess, but whatever. Like we definitely called her black princess. I liked that. Like, I was no huge Megan Merkel fan. I wasn't like a big consumer of media around the Royals.

But the way that it was so clear that it was like, well, are you a Kate or a Megan? And like how racialized and politicized that was. There wasn't really a place for the casual person who was like, I'm interested in, like, casually following this person that I kind of like, but I don't necessarily want to feel like I need to take these, take a binary side in this way. And so when things become flattened out into this, like, tribalistic binary vibe, the people who are interested in just having thoughtful conversations or don't really feel one right or the other kind of get drowned out because it's like, are you with her or with her? Are you with these people or those people? Like, it really doesn't leave a place for nuance. No, it does it at all.

There's a term for it. It's called cyber balkanization, which means that, you know, when you're online, things become very narrow. I mean, even if you look at something like a Facebook group, right, it's all like along one theme and one topic. And it's great. It's a great way to bring people together along that dimension, but you're also not connecting on all these other dimensions. The other thing that happens on social media is you're creating these tribal alliances. But you're also not, like, exchanging actual human cues. Like, you know, you're not seeing people's faces and you're not seeing the other side, right?

Which makes it, you know, if you're actually in a debate with someone in real life, like, there's a certain amount of respect and, you know, because you're human, right? Like, you actually have a human connection there in person. It's much easier to become more toxic because it's so depersonalized online. And the other side is kind of abstract or anonymous in a way. And it gets really ugly, really fast. Yeah, I have found myself as a personal exercise trying to really engage in discourse online with strangers in a way that really, I don't know. I just, something about the exercise of like getting into a debate on Twitter or something. Like your collar is, your fur is up.

Like you're just like, and so like, you can, I feel it myself, like, you can so quickly be like so hostile. And you're like, well, if we were just two people talking at a cafe, would I default to hostility? And so I'm really, as a personal exercise, trying to like really be mindful of that dynamic of like, if somebody is disagreeing with me about something that really is of no consequence on the internet, what, like, is it, why is my first instinct to be like a hostile response? And part of me wonders if it's because a lot of the times, like, you. you kind of sense that your followers are watching and maybe you want to like really dunk on this person so that other people will be like, yeah, go you. And I'm just trying to really unlearn all of that because I do think it's like not the healthiest instinct to show up with. Absolutely. And you have to remember that these platforms are sort of designed for that, right?

They want you to emotional reactivity drives engagement. And that's why the content that triggers that emotional reactivity is going to be the stuff that you most likely see. Like you're not going to see the boring post that you're like, oh, I just learned about the political situation and, you know, New Guinea or I don't know, whatever, right? It's going to be something really crazy and that pushes your buttons. And that's the whole point. That's what keeps you addicted. Then you start scrolling and then you start, you know, responding. and, you know, that's what makes the money.

You are the product. That's what you have to remember. And I am with you. Like, I succumb to it myself, but I'm trying to be more mindful and to think about when I get triggered that way, that's the cue to get off. Because at the end of the day,

it's actually not that worth it. Like, who are these people? And you don't even know if they're real. It could be like some, it could be Ivan in St. Petersburg. Right. Sitting in a troll form. Like, you don't even.

and know. So, but yeah, that what you're feeling is real, and it's designed to do that because that's what keeps you on the platform. As someone who has worked in counterintelligence, like, I don't even know how to ask this without sounding not informed. So if the way that I'm framing this does not sound informed, feel free to let me know, because I am certainly not the expert. But, you know, you mentioned, like, you don't even know if these people are real.

And we've covered quite a bit this idea. this idea of bad actors, impersonating people, getting into online communities and, like, causing chaos and confusion. What is going on there? Like, like, why would a foreign agent be invested in me, Bridget Todd, in my kitchen, getting hot under the collar and, like, rage tweeting somebody? Like, like, why is that a tactic that we see? because when they do it on a mass scale, it erodes trust among the citizenry. I mean, how you feel when you're online is going to carry over when you go out into real life, right? Like that, you carry that with you. I mean, I have found even in the last five years, like, I'm kind of more mistrustful in general when I walk around.

Like, I see people, you know, and it's, I have to like think about. who I am and who I want to be in the space. But it so's division and it so's chaos. And the more that you're on Twitter arguing with some person, you're not out doing, you know, you're not volunteering. You're not being civically engaged. You're not, you know, going to a show at a theater or a sports event where you're like, you know, forging, I think, healthier connections.

And for places like Russia that can't compete with us technologically, militarily, economically, their objective is to have us implode from within to create dysfunction and discord, have us all hate each other, ideally have us all shoot each other, and essentially bring and have us lose faith in our institutions and bring our entire form of society and governance to a standstill. That's what they want. And I hate to say, I mean, like, I agree, and I hate to say that we have people in the United States who are kind of like doing, like helping them along. It's like.

Absolutely. It's like makes me want to pull my hair out where I'm like, don't you see that this is what they want? Don't you see that you're just doing the work of bad actors for them? Yes. No, absolutely. I think their interests are alive. with a subset of actors, including political actors. I mean, we have a group right now that's holding our House of Representatives hostage.

Right? These are the people who try to overthrow the government. Yes. It's one of those things where there's a little bit of truth because I can understand somebody who was like, I'm not going to trust these people to govern for me. And it's like, we, I can, like, I agree that having people lose trust. and our institutions is like bad and like what bad actors want. But on the other hand, part of me is like, well, they're not making it very difficult for someone to lose trust. We're arresting these like kooky people. Yes.

I will say, I think in that regard, the midterm elections were I think heartening. You know, you had a lot of these election deniers defeated. And I do think that there's, I think the pendulum is going to move, maybe slowly, but it is going to move in the direction. because people are sick of it. And I do think people are more aware now of, you know, what is being done to us and that, you know, it's really up to us to try to take it in another direction. Absolutely.

I kind of agree with you. I think that people that are just like sick of it. It's enough already. Enough already. Yeah, like we have to be able to have like a baseline understanding of reality. and if we don't have that, like we don't have anything. Absolutely. More after a quick break.

Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter.

Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ads supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHearts twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHeart.

streaming, radio, and podcasting. Let us show you at iHeartadvertising.com. That's iHeartadvertising.com. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in.

I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real.

From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports Slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slices Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Let's get right back into it. One of the things that you talk about in your piece is something called the propaganda feedback loop that was coined by the Columbia Law Professor Benkler. And this, like, really blew my mind. And the way that you saw it working in the dialogue around Harry and Megan,

can you tell us a bit about what you see that, what it is and how you see it functioning? Yeah, so the propaganda feedback loop, this is developed by Columbia Law Professor Yol Kai Benkler, who co-authored a book. called Network Propaganda. But what they were describing is that in the United States, the right-wing media system is basically a closed system. So you have sort of these symbiotic relationships where these outlets like Fox News provide favorable coverage of particular political figures who then will go on those shows. And then the audience for that is sort of siloed, right? like they are not getting other narratives because they're sort of sucked into this.

And so they're in an alternate reality to get to what you were saying before. Like if we live in alternate realities, we can't function. That is an alternate reality. It's very hard to pierce that. What that, this is unrelated to the Megan piece, but what they are trying to show in that book is that the media, the center of gravity on the left and right are asymmetrical, meaning, that that propaganda feedback loop is existing in, is a system that allows for conspiracy theories and false narratives and all of that. And there's nothing external that can come in and check it

or correct for it. Whereas even if you have more of a left bias in traditional media, CNN, MSNBC, whatever, there are still guardrails there that prevent largely, you know, complete conspiracies or false narratives from piercing it. And so you have like two different media ecosystems and one that is just more truthful than the other. What I saw playing out with Megan and Harry is that they were describing a similar feedback loop with the British tabloids and the Royal Palace. It's called the Royal Rhoda, which is this, I guess some handful of these tabloids or these

outlets. And there's just sort of this implicit understanding that as long as the members of the royal family pose and, you know, give them content, both in terms of, you know, photographs, stories, dirt on other people in the royal family, then they get rewarded by favorable coverage or at least by distracting from bad coverage by covering other people. It's really sad. I mean, it was, you know, it's essentially they're like circus animals where they have to be on display all the time. And this media system can like punish them if they're not. If they don't play along, then they can like, you know, circulate these narratives. And it creates these incentives for members of the royal family to actually throw each other under the bus in order to take, you know, take the heat off themselves or to get, I mean, for whatever reason. And you see this playing out, I think, you know, with even Harry and his brother, right?

I think this is one of the main reasons that he was really upset with his brother. I don't know that the public audience in the UK is as, you know, if there's as much capture as there is here, I don't know if there is siloed. So I'm not sure if it's necessarily the exact same as our propaganda feedback loop on the right here. but that symbiotic relationship between the Royal Palace and these tabloids to me was what I saw playing out. A truism about false information is that while it can be good to debunk lies on the internet, it doesn't always work, especially with folks who are deeply committed to a false reality. So rather than trying to debunk all the different conspiracy theories and misleading statements out there,

one by one, like, no, Megan Markle did not wear a fake tummy to fake a pregnancy, or no, she did not use a doll as a stand-in for her baby, because that would never work for people who are fully and deeply invested in an alternate reality. Instead, Megan and Harry are shifting the conversation. One of the things that I think is so fascinating that you point out in your piece is how, I think because it being this like closed feedback loop where an outsider is never going to be able to pierce it, never going to be able to, like, somebody who is a true believer, they're probably never going to be able to really get any kind of alternate, you know, perspective in there, is that they don't really focus on debunking a lot of the lies and misinformation coming out of,

out of this. Instead, they kind of change the narrative and, like, peel back the curtain to sort of explore the ways that the monarchy is this, like, dysfunctional toxic system. So do you think that's, like, why they sort of do it that way? they're like, we're not going to debunk all of the lies and half-truths. We are instead going to, like, tell a different story. Yeah, they just changed the debate, right? Like, they just reframe the whole controversy, which I think was smart, A, because of what you just said, you're not going to convince people who already believe something, but you're

just changing the paradigm and you're exposing how the tactic works. This is the key to neutralizing, as we would say, in the instance. intelligence world, disinformation is, I mean, you can fact check, you can counter. That's, and that's helpful, but it's often not super productive. People, it's very hard to undo someone's belief in what they have it. What you can do is explain to them what's being done to them. And then that might open their eyes and make them more skeptical of what they consume after that, right? You're kind of pulling back the curtain. And I think, think they did that very smartly. And by reframing the entire controversy in terms of, you know,

this is how the royal family is exploited by this, you know, tabloid system that makes money off of this voyeurism of the public. It really places both those outlets and I think the Royal Palace in a defensive posture because now they have to explain, like, why do you go along with this? Right? Why are you into the outlets? Like, why are you exploiting them? So, I mean, I'm not surprised that I'm sure the British media is really, really mad because they just got completely exposed and called out. Yeah.

And I'm sure when Harry's book comes out next week, like, I'm sure they're all, like, nobody in the palace is like having a good time. I'm sure everybody is very stressed on a lot on their plates. Yes. I think I read some snippets of that today or saw some tidbits. Like, I guess there's drama about how William was beating up on Harry. I don't know, something like that. So it sounds like lots of drama will be revealed. What do you think that either the Netflix show or just generally like the media ecosystem around Megan and Harry,

do you think that it tells us anything about how we can counter other more like broad or widespread disinformation campaigns? Like critical race theory or, you know, drag queens are out to heart. harm your kids, like things like that. Like, do you think there's any lessons to be learned there? There are definitely lessons to be learned. And, you know, the CRT thing, I mean, the reframing the controversy is really important there, right? Because that's a very deliberate, uh, sciop, basically, a psychological operation to take this term, critical race theory and basically make it a catch-all phrase for teaching anything having to do with race or, you know,

no one can define it and that's that's the key right it becomes shorthand it's like hunter biden's laptop it's you know groomers all these like these buzzwords that no one really understands but it just becomes associated with that so if you try to engage on that term you're always going to be losing i would see people saying but critical race theory isn't taught in you know elementary schools It's not, but at this point, you're already, you're accepting the term. Why are you, why are you fighting about that? You know, why not respond with, why would you not want children to learn about the history of the United States, including slavery? Like, that's the question.

Whatever you want to call it, but, you know, so it just, to reframe it, to stop using the terms that are being given to you. stop using the assumptions that are being given to you because it's a trap. It's a trap to make you engage in that and then to basically, you know, keep you tied up in that loop. You've got to get out of the loop. Got get out of the loop. That's words to live by. One of my last questions for you, how was Diana the musical? Oh, my God.

Did you watch that clip? I watched the break dancing because I was like, really? Wasn't it so bad? I had nothing to do with the production and I was embarrassed. I was so embarrassed. I know. I know. I was like, aren't these, like, do these people have no dignity?

No, it's so bad. It's actually so bad you have to watch it. So it's so bad it loops back around to good. Yes, you have to watch it. A winning endorsement. There's a, there's a, there's a, um. the thrilla in Manila with Camilla, which is like a faux,

like boxing fight between Diana and Camel. Like, I mean, it's just so dumb. And the lyrics are so dumb. And this person who plays Diana is not a convincing Diana at all. Right? Like, it's just sort of like, why are you doing this? But you can't stop watching it.

I was like rubbernecking the whole time. All right. Well, that's going on my list. It sounds like choices were made. in this production, definitely have to check it out. Yes. Where can people follow all the very fascinating work that you are up to? I think the best place, if you're interested in the topics we talked about today,

is my substack, asha rangappa.com. That's where I've been writing about this stuff. I have free content. If you're interested in taking the course, you can sign up for that too. I am on Twitter, though, I'll be honest. I'm trying to wean off. I'm trying to use that as a tool to enhance other parts of my professional life and to not let it suck up my whole time.

That's one of my New Year's resolutions. But you can follow me there too. It's Asha Rangappa underscore. And those are the two main places. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi? You can reach us at hello at tangoady. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangoody.com. There are no girls on the internet was created by me, Bridget Todd.

It's a production of IHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from IHeartRadio, check out the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Another podcast from some SNL, late night comedy.

Not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends, me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Life is full of hurdles. So how do you keep you? Keep going. On Hurtle with Emily Abadi, we're talking with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness from professional athletes, coaches and Olympic champions about the challenges that shape them and the mindset that keeps them moving forward. At our level, at this scale, being able to fail in front of the entire world. Like, I can do anything. I can do anything.

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