There Are No Girls on the Internet - Building a Better Internet with Carrie Goldberg

Episode Date: August 25, 2020

When an abusive ex threatened to ruin Carrie Goldberg’s life, she needed a lawyer who specialized in revenge porn. Only one didn’t exist. So Carrie became the lawyer she needed. Now, she’s fighting to make the internet a safer place. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Just a heads up, this episode includes mentions of sex. There Are No Girls on the Internet as a production of IHeart Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. There used to be a time when we didn't really have a term for the idea of revenge-born. Spreading someone's intimate content online without their consent was just a thing that happened on the internet. Just last week, 19-year-old Aaron Coleman won the Democratic primary for a Kansas House seat. even after admitting to obtaining nude photos of a girl when he was 14, trying to blackmail her into sending him more photos

and spreading them online when she refused. On Twitter, journalist Glenn Greenwald of The Intercept called Aaron's behavior, quote, bad middle school bullying. But this kind of behavior isn't just bullying. It's a serious sex crime. When we minimize revenge porn, we're contributing to an attitude that says

once someone takes an intimate photo of themselves, they deserve whatever happens next, even if it means their life is destroyed, they're harassed, or worse. Luckily, women are fighting to build a better internet, one where we have the right to feel safe online. You could be forgiven for thinking of Carrie Goldberg as a real-life superhero.

Instead of a cape, she rocks heels, bold statement glasses, and sometimes even caps it off with a baseball hat reading, I sue abusers. With her law firm, she spent her professional life holding all manner of internet creeps, abusers, and stalkers accountable. Going head to head with powerful abusers and their enablers is scary. But Carrie has never been one to back down from a challenge. She represented Lucia Evans and Paz de la Huerta,

who were among the first women who made public allegations against Harvey Weinstein, which led to his arrest. Her book, Nobody's Victim, is about her own experiences with an abusive ex, who vowed to use the internet to ruin her life, and her journey to become the lawyer she needed. Carrie has been responsible for creating a massive cultural change around the kind of experiences marginalized people can expect from the internet. Her work, creating accountability for people who misuse the internet to cause harm,

forces us to ask, why should we accept mistreatment as a given? Why can't things be better? Carrie, it turns out, has been holding creeps accountable since the very beginning. So one of the stories I read about you is that when you were in school, one of your classmates was bragging

about having gotten a hand job from one of your girlfriends, and you responded by gluing a bunch of amputated doll hands to a poster and giving it to them with a card that says, we'll give you a hand. Has holding people accountable for their bad behavior

always been a mission of yours? It didn't feel like it was a mission of mine. No, but it was a fun pastime. And I remember one of my friends was on the boys soccer team and she was the only girl on the team. We didn't have a girl soccer team in Aberdeen and there was an incident where she was on the school bus and they were going to an away game and she fell asleep with her mouth open and she told me about how when she woke up there were all these pubs in her mouth and all I guess a bunch of her teammates had like

plucked their pubs and put it put them in her mouth. Now I I was a member of the yearbook team, and I got assigned to write this story about the boys' soccer team. And I got kicked off the yearbook team or the yearbook class because the teacher had realized that the first letter of each word in the first couple sentences spelled out pubic pluckers. So, you know, now that's just like that's a Title IX situation. You know, like her waking up and having, you know, that's a disciplinary issue. Back then it was, it was, we didn't think that much of it. It was playful. But, I mean, she was the only girl on that team.

You know, it was, it's certainly impacting her enjoyment of it. Boys will be boys. It's just a joke. She deserved it. I'd never let something like that happen to me. It's difficult for me to admit. But I've had these kinds of harmful, victim-blaming reactions to hearing about the sexual abuse of a classmate.

I was 15 and it was gossip, something to whisper about in homeroom. I got to feel like part of the in-group. Judging another girl for something that was done to her, it was wrong and I wish I had known better. Young Me contributed to a culture that treated serious crimes and violations like some big joke. It wasn't a joke. Your work has been incredibly impactful for me,

for my own process of understanding the cultural change that needs to happen around those kinds of stories, right? When I was in high school, I think I was in 10th grade. You know how every high school has that big scandal that happens in your class or in your school that everybody's talking about? In my school, it was a girl had sent intimate pictures

to her boyfriend, currently just for him, and he sent them to everybody. You know, he said, we lived in a, we went to a pretty small school. There was an all-girls school where there was an all-boys school nearby. And these pictures were seen by everybody. And I hate to say this.

It's like a shameful confession, but 15-year-old Bridget thought this was a joke, right? Like 15-year-old Bridget thought that because she had taken these pictures at all, she deserved what happened to her. She deserved to be shamed. And, you know, I was very young, but looking back, I thought about it as a joke, right?

I didn't think it was serious. And I thought that, you know, it was okay to make fun of her, to shame her because she had done this to herself and she deserves it. And it wasn't until becoming older, did I really step back and think, like, I was really complicit in continuing a cultural attitude that, A, when things like this happen, that it's just a joke, it's not serious. It's not a big, it's not a crime. And B, that the victims deserve to whatever like scorn or shame they get because they put themselves in this situation. And I guess my question is, how do we get to a place where we, more people go through that process of being like, oh, well, actually, I believe some pretty fucked up stuff about

victims, about sexualized violence. And I have a role in making sure that everybody, understands that these are very serious. I mean, Bridget, what you're talking about is, is like, it is the issue. You know, like most of my underage clients, almost all of them are that victim, are the person that the scandal around the high school is orbiting around. And it's, you know, it is like, the issue is, the issue is, that kids don't learn empathy.

They don't develop empathetic skills until later on, and they can't roll reverse with the victims. And so instead, they want to be, there's a natural instinct in all of us to want to be part of the gossip and part of the story and to see the picture that everyone else is seeing and talking about. And not to be the upstander who is like,

that's actually a sex crime. And everyone who's looking at that and has it on their phone and is sending it to other minors is actually engaging in, a felony, you know, child pornography, like felonious behavior. But the issue is that that attitude of a victim blaming and stuff, which is really natural in kids, it's also frequently present in the administrators, in the school resource officers who are cops,

and even in the people, in the parents who get involved, including sometimes the victim's parents. A lot of times our clients don't take immediate action because they're afraid of their parents disciplining them. And it's just, you know, we talk about consent education and how we need to teach kids about consent. But a big component of that is about empathy and just, you know, doing role reversal exercises where kids have to imagine what it's like. to be in somebody else's shoes. And I think that's important when we're talking about race and gender and also victimization. One of Carrie's clients, a Brooklyn teen with mental disabilities,

was raped at a stairwell while at school. When she reported what happened, her school counselor decided that she was at fault and suspended her. Sadly, her story is not really that uncommon. School-aged, black and brown girls are more likely to face interpersonal violence at school and are also disproportionately criminalized and punished.

Carrie's client won a $950,000 settlement against the city, and a city spokesperson promised $47 million annually in school climate training programs. It won't undo the hell she suffered, Carrie said, but it will buy her some comfort and healing. You know, it's not necessarily about suing, although I am a big believer in that when the circumstances are right. but it's like making, amplifying your voice. And I mean, sometimes when I would be writing my legal complaints in preparation of lawsuits, I would get so emotional that I would just go on these like Twitter like storms, you know,

just like diva fits. But even that, you know, those would get retweeted. And by the time I filed my complaints, I had a lot of journalists that were, that were in line to cover them. Some of it's just like letting the natural rage of the injustice, like speak for itself. Let's take a quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guide, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends.

Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman, help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an Acapella band with their between songs banter. There's that worst singer in the group? The worst? Yeah. Me.

Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard, you only got in because your parents made a huge donation. The group. The yard birds, right? That's the name. The Harvard Yard. They're open. Do you have a name suggestion?

We're open. Since you guys are middle aged. One erection. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Human be. I need some jokes to make me seem funny. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again.

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That's iHeartadvertising.com. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before.

And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves. I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us

on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers, why he got the ball like after you go through a training camp with that I said you figure it out real quick get your ass up and down the court and you're going to get the ball so listen to point game on the

iHeart radio app apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts hey everyone it's writer strong and will fredell from podmeets world and now the pod meets twirled podcast we're two men who were completely clueless to reality tv who now have covered dancing with the stars traders and we're gearing up for the season finale of Survivor. So yeah, now we're experts. I know we annoyed a lot of our listeners by our severe lack of survivor knowledge. That is the point of the show. I'm just going to remind you.

I have watched some Survivor. I obviously haven't watched enough. Did people not like it? Like what was just because we? Yeah. We'll be recapping the big conclusion of the 50th season from the final attempts at gameplay to the desperate pleas of finalists to a bunch of, Ha, who.

Ha, ha, ooh. Again, we are experts. So make sure to tune into Pod Meets Twirled for all our Survivor 50 takes. Listen to PodMeets Twirled on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. Carrie has a real connection to her clients.

She rages about the injustices they face on Twitter. She uses her own experiences to help them combat stigma and shame and let them know they're not alone. I feel very invested in making the process of the litigation or getting justice tolerable because it can take years and you need you need them to be able to feel like it's worth it and it's stressful at times and it can be very invasive you know like when you're having to relive when you're only 16, 17, you're having to relive this awful thing that happened to you when you're 13. You need to, like, feel like it's for something really important.

And also just getting back to what you were talking about, Bridget, about how, you know, when we're young, we can actually be complicit in some of the violation. it makes me think about how much more traumatizing it is to be a victim when you're when you're young. And we're not only have our violators not developed the skill of empathy, but the victims haven't figured out how to cope. And it can feel like your whole world is crushing around you if you are not only sexually violated, but then all the students in your class think you're a job. joke and are spreading it. And you know, you're afraid your parents are going to punish you.

And you're afraid your school's going to punish you. And like, kids already don't have control over their lives. And, and then to be kind of socially ostracized or put in this category of other and have your friendships kind of crumble, like that is, that can create such desperation. And every single one of our young clients has been suicidal during those moments. It's just like they don't have the coping skills. I didn't when I was that age. When Carrie was younger, she was victimized by abusive exes. One had intimate images of her and vowed to use them to ruin her life. This was before revenge porn was even really a thing. People didn't know how to talk about it or deal with it when it happened. And lawyers didn't really

know how to handle what she was going through? In your book, you talk about how you became the lawyer that you wish you had had in your 30s. Can you tell me a bit about that? Yeah. Well, I had some violence. You know, I was a victim of some dating violence and incident of sexual violence before I started my law firm. and when I was trying to escape my ex-boyfriend's stalking, and he was just besieging me with text messages and threats

and false police reports, and it was never ending, I had trouble finding a lawyer. I worked with somebody on the domestic violence, piece. I worked with somebody on the bogus criminal complaints piece. But for everyone that I talked to, this was a real, like, abnormal case for them. And, you know, you don't want to be the outlier when it comes to getting legal help and having a lawyer, you know, be kind of learning as they go. And it was unpredictable for them, you know, what would happen or, you know, or the profile of my offender was something really new to them.

And when I finally got my orders of protection and he pled guilty, which was six months after the breakup, I quit everything and started my law firm a few months later. When I was, you know, in retrospect, I was still in the midst of a lot of trauma. but I started this law firm basically to become the kind of lawyer that I'd needed because I'd gotten this kind of involuntary education into the world of being stocked and having no control over what's happening in the Internet. And I learned that in New York we didn't have a law criminalizing,

you know, somebody sending around your job. naked pictures. And so the internet component of the attack on me was was the most scary thing that the scariest part about it. Because even after I got my order of protection, I knew that legally he could still be sending around my images. He, you know, as far as I know, he didn't, but there was always this like thing this that he had threatened to and and he had sent me email saying that he with the picture saying that he'd blind copied um you know people that I was like other lawyers and judges and stuff um but it was like this constant anxiety that like I wasn't I wasn't protected even after all the legal issues had

It's seemingly wrapped up. Carrie became one of the most prominent lawyers specializing in revenge porn and offers victims legal support and a pathway to justice, whatever that looks like for them. Our expertise is dealing with people who've been stalked and harassed and victims of sexual assault and sexual trauma and getting justice for them. Sometimes it's just about getting an order of protection or helping advocate in the criminal justice system

or just sending a cease and assist and getting the offender to go away forever. Other times, it's we have to, the victim doesn't want to take any legal action, but just wants those images to be removed from the internet. And then we also do sometimes have really big cases against the city of New York when there's a retaliation against a student or a big case against Grindr, because we felt they were facilitating our client being stalked. But basically the idea is that every client that comes to us has either been attacked or is under attack.

And so we know what to do. And we've seen all these behavioral profiles over and over again. And the more you do something, the more expert you get. And so we can predict, you know, well, by sending a cease-in-as-this-letter to this kind of behavioral profile who is mentally ill and unrelenting and obsessed, we can know that's just going to escalate things. Whereas, oh, this other person, he's threatening revenge porn, but he's actually got a really stable job and lives with, and has a kid.

And he's actually going to feel scared of a threat because it could take things away from from him. More after this quick break. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite on humor me with Robert Smygel and friends, me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk

to David Letterman, help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. There's the worst singer in the group. The worst? Yeah. Me. Is there anything to the idea

that because you're from Harvard, you only got in because your parents made a huge donation. The group. The yard birds, right? That's the name. The Harvard yard, but they're open. Do you have a name suggestion?

We're open? Since you guys are middle-aged. One erection. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. You love me. I need some jokes to make me seem funny.

Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ads supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHearts twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHeart. Streaming, radio, and podcasting.

Call 844-844-I-Hart to get started. That's 844-8-4-I-Hart. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast, Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before.

And he knows. Without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us

on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nass would get that thing. That man, hell get to fly. He running up the court, licking his fingers, why he got the bar like, after you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah,

you figure it out. real quick. Oh, yeah. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There are times when the mind becomes a difficult place to live. This is David Eagleman with the Inner Cosmos podcast, and for Mental Health Awareness Month,

we're dedicating a series to understanding the mind when it struggles. I'm joined by doctors, researchers, and those with lived experience. We'll talk with singer-songwriter Jewel about anxiety. I started living in my car, and then my car got stolen. I was shoplifting. I was having panic attacks. I was agoraphobic. And making it through hardship.

To be present is a learned skill, and it's hard to be present. We'll talk with John Nelson about clinical depression and the brain implant that saved his life. What I learned is that procedure made me happy because I'm disease-free. And we'll talk with leading experts. like Judd Brewer about anxiety, and John Hirschfield about obsessive-compulsive disorder and the science of how the brain can change. This is a month of deeply personal and honest conversations

about what happens when the brain goes off course and what we can do about it. Listen to Inner Cosmos on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's get right back to it. Carrie's case against the dating app grinder was one of the biggest fights of her career. In it, she sets her side on legislation

called Section 230, which basically says that tech platforms can't be sued for what people say on those platforms. Now, free speech advocates, like the Electronic Frontier Foundation, say Section 230 is what makes the Internet the Internet. But Carrie says that's exactly the problem. Forgive me if I, like, bungle this from my kind of layperson's research,

I understand that it really comes down to Section 230, which I know that is something that you, really, really have an issue with. You know, this is the section that allows tech companies to not be held liable for things that are said on their platform, the way that their platforms are used. Free speech advocates say that that section is like what makes the internet what it is, but you say that's exactly the problem, right, that we should be thinking about the internet in a different way. We should be building a different internet. I guess, how do we reconcile those two arguments, I guess, you know? Is there,

some way to preserve free speech online while also not letting tech companies just like avoid accountability for the way that their platforms are misused? Oh my gosh, I have so much to say to this. Pruddin, you framed it like better than I could. Our client, Matthew Herrick, was a waiter slash actor slash former reality star who lived in Manhattan in Harlem. And he had just ended a relationship with a really controlling and abusive man. And among the ways that that man stalked Matthew was he started creating fake profiles on Grindr,

the gay dating app, and then luring people to Matthew's job and to his home, using Grinders, geolocating technology, and DMing with the unknowing people. and over the course of several months, over 1,300 individuals came in person to Matthew's apartment and to his job, thinking that they were there to have sex with him. So imagine just like in the course of this interview, if your buzzer rang three times with, you know,

like it was sometimes as many as 23 people a day, Bridgett. And, you know, each time he didn't know who it was going to be. He didn't know if that person was going to be dangerous. Sometimes Matthew's ex would torment and taunt the visitors and say homophobic or racist things or say that Matthew had free drugs. And so sometimes the visitors would come really angry or tweaked out. But always they were there thinking that Matthew had had, rape fantasies and stuff.

So, I mean, it was scary. Like, it was a crime that was happening to Matthew day in and day out every single day. And Matthew had gone to the police 10 times. He'd gotten an order of protection that the offender was violating over and over again. And nothing mattered. Matthew flagged the accounts with Rinder about 50 times by the time. we came along. And then I was,

I had just worked with a bunch of big tech companies at the time. This is like the fall or the end of 2016. And I'd worked with a bunch of tech companies on their revenge porn policies. And so I was super like, I'll just call up Grinders General Counsel and get them to, to remove this user. And they ignored me too. And so I was like raging, raging with him. and we ended up getting a restraining order against Grindr, saying that they had to remove this user, which, you know, it's not super common to get a restraining order against a tech company.

But we got it. And Grindr even ignored that. The visitors kept coming. And we, as we, you know, plotted our lawsuit against Grindr, we had to worry about the communications decency. Act, Section 230, which was this law, as you mentioned, that went into effect back in 1995, when the Internet looked nothing like it does now. And the law was actually, you know, it was just a 26-word law that was part of a bigger law that basically banned pornography on the Internet.

but the other part of that law got deemed unconstitutional, in case you're wondering why we have porn on the internet, it's not constitutional to outlaw it, but this little section survived. And it originally was supposed to just make it so that, you know, if a bulletin board, which was basically the way that, you know, people talk to one another online, And if somebody posted something defamatory on the bulletin board, there wouldn't be a lawsuit against the bulletin board.

But the defamation would be user to user. And it kind of makes sense because then the platforms are not tasked with this burden of having to moderate all the speech and all the posts and stuff like that. But the issue is that over the last, you know, 25 years, that law has been interpreted by our courts in this really expansive way. And so anytime, you know, Twitter or Facebook or anybody gets sued for something that's happening to a user, they say, we're not liable because of Section 230. You know, like you can't hold this accountable for anything that one user does to another. And courts have, you know, said you're right because all the other cases before you didn't. It's important to emphasize that Carrie isn't just talking about what someone says on a platform. If a platform allows an abusive user to impersonate you and set you up for a dangerous encounter in real life, it's a pretty big flaw.

The issue is that the internet and apps and, you know, are so much different now than they were. We're not just talking about defamation. We're talking about, you know, geolocating technology and, you know, social media companies, which have so much functionality. And we're talking about, you know, dating apps, you know, and apps that are playing a role in matching users. And so, but we had to make it when we were filing this lawsuit so that we were not suing, Grindr for anything that Matt's X was doing to Matt because we knew it would get kicked out

of court for violating Section 230. And so when Grinders' lawyers finally came to court and told us that they didn't have the technology to ban an abusive user, we were like, what? Like, you have the world's biggest dating app. And it's so foreseeable, the biggest dating app, you know, for getting a, you know, for giving people, it's so foreseeable that sometimes it's going to be abused by stalkers, by predators, and you've not designed into it, like a way to stop abusive users? Well, then you've released a dangerous product into the stream of commerce. And just like our product's liability laws for

cars, you know, that have airbags that don't go off or broken brakes or something, like Grindr had created a dangerous product. We say, you shouldn't have. have been on the market in the first place. And the fact that you are, well, that's how we're going to sue you. Grindr still said, at the end of the day, you're still holding us liable for stuff this user's done to Matthew. It's not us. And the judge agreed with Grindr, and we appealed and, and kept losing at every stage and ultimately petitioned to the Supreme Court and lost. And, which happened. You know, this was from the beginning a real,

it was a very experimental lawsuit. Like at the time that we filed it, it was novel for us to even be, for anybody to even be referring to apps as products. Everyone was saying, they're services, their services, but now this idea has caught on and it's kind of changed the way that that we think about apps and internet products.

And the fact that we did have such, you know, that Matthew experienced such a horrific thing, and he couldn't get justice, that's actually helped us fight for legislation. And so, as you mentioned, you've got all these people on the other side that, And I don't actually think it's all these people. I think they're just very vocal and they're getting paid a lot of lobbying money from big tech.

Is the internet we have now working for everyone? Is it the version of the internet we want? Is it one worth preserving as is? Carrie doesn't really think so. But they're saying that basically the internet as we know it wouldn't exist without Section 230. And we're going to lose all. this wonderful free exchange of ideas if we lose Section 230. And I call total BS on that because, number one,

you're assuming that the Internet as we know it is a great place and that as we know it should be, you know, like preserved. Just, you know, it's kind of like any constitutional argument or make America great again. You're assuming that it is, the things are great. And, you know, you're assuming that, you know, that everyone has the same level of free speech. But, I mean, speech on the Internet really belongs to those who are the loudest

and, you know, four, basically four companies, Amazon, Facebook, Microsoft, and Apple. I mean, they control the Internet, and we've got all our issues with antitrust. And then you've, and also the, the question. quantity. So the most hostile people on the internet are the ones who have the greatest protections. But also, when we're talking about lawsuits and the right to sue, it's such a fundamental right. Carrie says that as long as tech companies have the kind of legal protection afforded to them by Section 230, it creates a situation where there's not a lot of avenues to hold them accountable. You know, like, the thing is, like, as you see with our cases against the New York City Department bed, like, for the cost of an index number, which is a couple hundred bucks, which you can get waived, I had a client who, you know, whose mom was a part-time home health aide and didn't speak English, you know, and they had, they had no money to speak of. I had her suing the city of New York, which is worth multi-billion, you know, multi-billion dollar.

And that's the great equalizer in our country, is that anybody can sue, you know, if there's been a harm. And it's fundamental. And it's also how we keep our big organizations, our companies, from being total assholes. Because the threat of being sued is, hits you in the bottom, you know, it's a bottom line issue. It costs money. And it's what, you know, like so many safety. measures, whether we're talking about pharmaceuticals or cars, it's because of litigation that happened or it's because of the fear of litigation. And also it's because most companies want people to be safe. They want their customers and clients to not have a bad experience. You don't see that with big tech, though. You know, like the wall off, you know, like if you had a crisis

on Facebook, if let's say you're a parent and your kid was manipulated into giving nudes to a pedophile and then he was sharing them online. You're a parent, your first instinct was who, you know, was who do I talk to? Who do I talk to? What's the phone number? Who's live to help me with this crisis? And it's just like a one-way street. where we're giving these companies all this information about us and stuff.

And we can't, I mean, they are like, it's like Oz. Like, they're behind this magic curtain and don't have to interact with us users. So as you were talking, it occurred to me that when you first started your law firm, the idea of revenge porn didn't even really exist. And it was through advocating for legal protections and working with victims that you helped usher in both a legal change and a cultural reimagined. of what revenge porn actually is. And in listening to you talk about tech companies just now,

it seems like you're poised to do that same kind of thing again when it comes to reimagining what role tech companies should play in creating an internet that's safer for everyone. Like a hard reset of how these companies operate. Yeah. I mean, it's true, rigid. There's so much, there's so much work that can be done. And, like, it's a really critical time

because you have all this concentrated power and wealth in such a few, just a few companies. And that, the inequality in our society is just getting greater, you know, because of these companies. Because, and also the power and the omniscience is also, you know, another thing that's just creating so much more inequality in our country. And the thing is, I do have so many cases.

where it's, you can't ignore that the facts are horrific. You know, an 11-year-old who was sextorted and made to create all these videos and they were sent around on Instagram. Or my client whose, who was, whose murder was basically live streamed, or another client who was raped and murdered on a first date through Match.com by a known sex offender. Like, there's going to become a point where the more cases, like, that, okay, even if these cases can't be brought in court or get kicked out, like, you can't deny that there is extreme negligence by these companies. And we're just, I'm going to just keep producing them until we get new law. And it's just like any other case where if you don't feel like you can become a victim, then you're not going to care.

But the whole purpose of my book and everything is to pound into this, into the consciousness that we're all a moment away from becoming victims. Like, all it takes is one person to decide they want to destroy you. One bad interaction at the supermarket with somebody who finds out your name, they then have the right to, you know, go to pedophile websites and tell the world that you're a pedophile. and good luck getting that down. Anybody can become a victim, but it shouldn't take that in order for us to have empathy toward victims and want to change the internet.

And it's, you know, like this, we're not talking about, you know, somebody calling somebody else a bitch on Twitter. That's not the kind of speech that's going to be impacted. And we're not even talking about speech, really, because this is all conduct. You know, but our law doesn't,

even see the difference there. I would, you know, like with Grindr, we weren't suing them for any words on the profile or any words on the DM. We were suing them because this product was being used, you know, hundreds of times a day to try to get our client injured. It's not a speech issue. This is unjust. Carrie's work isn't just about the law. It confronts the cultural attitude that people who are victimized online deserve it, or that it's just a sexy scandal rather than a serious crime, or that we should just expect that the internet is a place where we'll be mistreated. Why can't it be better than that? So what has it been like to have such a personal hand in challenging the internet to be better and safer and stronger and working to build one

where people with power are held accountable? Well, it's so kind of you to describe me that way. I really feel flattered about that. You know, I love my job, and I love that as the owner of this law firm, I can decide what direction we go in and what fights to choose. I mean, that is incredibly privileged and inquisition to be in. And, you know, like, there are ways to use your law degree in a super awesome, fun, creative way. I mean, what's it been like? It's just like been fun.

But there aren't moments where I wake up and I feel like, oh, I'm this like really, you know, I've done it. You know, like I've made it because there's always somebody waiting to give me a bad verdict or, you know, a troll that, you know, cuts me down to size or, you know, like, there's, you know, there's very fleeting moments of, of, of, um, Well, what should I call? fleeting moments of, like, success. I'm proud of what we do. I'm so proud of my staff. But we're always humbled by the next fight. On her website, Carrie says the clients she works with aren't fragile like a flower. They're fragile like a bomb. Through her work with those clients, Carrie is blowing up our understanding of the internet

by asking the big, bold questions about how it can be better. She's taken the darkness, she faced. and used it to build a brighter future. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi? You can reach us at hello at tangoody.com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangoity.com. There are no girls on the internet was created by me, Bridget Todd. It's a production of IHeart Radio and Unbossed Creative.

Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tarry Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, write and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from IHeartRadio, check out the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends.

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